[HN Gopher] Robert Gore has died
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Robert Gore has died
Author : leephillips
Score : 162 points
Date : 2020-09-20 14:58 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| revx wrote:
| The more I hear about Gore-Tex, (and PTFE and PFOA, the chemicals
| Gore-tex and other Teflon stuff is created from) the more I think
| this is one of those chemicals that we'll look back on in 50
| years like we now look at leaded gasoline.
|
| Besides being known as deadly to parrots, I think studies
| (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28913736/) are starting to
| reveal that there are risks with PTFE and PFOA that need more
| research.
|
| I try not to be alarmist about chemicals and am generally in
| favor of scientific progress, but this chemical (similarly to
| PCBs) seems like one of those "wonder materials" that's great for
| specific applications that turns out to be terrible for life and
| the environment as soon as people sit down and actually look at
| the effects over a long period of time.
| andrewem wrote:
| See for example the small town of Hoosick Falls, New York where
| PFOA poisoned the water supply.
|
| Many sources, but here's one https://pfasproject.com/hoosick-
| falls-new-york/
| hobofan wrote:
| Also in Parkersburg, where the resulting long legal battle
| was portrayed in the movie Dark Waters last year. Another
| great addition to the genre of "Mark Ruffalo investigative
| thrillers".
| refurb wrote:
| PFOA I can understand, but PTFE?
|
| Sure, it's toxic to parrots, if you burn the material and it
| decomposes. But how many materials aren't? Most plastic will
| produce highly toxic products when burned.
|
| PTFE is produced from tetra-fluoroethylene, which is a gas,
| doesn't get into water supplies.
|
| And PTFE is very non-toxic. That's why we use it in medical
| implants.
| jjoonathan wrote:
| Yeah, but they don't buy commercials with happy bongo music
| and stir FUD about their competition, so how good can it be?
| hansvs wrote:
| Well that just messed with my head. For some reason
| (advertising? confusion? stupidity?) I had thought that Gore-
| Tex was based on a special weaving technique and use of special
| acrylic fibres... Wikipedia says `It is composed of stretched
| polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE), which is more commonly known by
| the generic trademark Teflon.`
|
| Damn....
| specialist wrote:
| Ya, I felt _truly stupid_ once I realized Gore-Tex is Teflon.
| REI is gonna need a makeover once this catches on.
|
| Since learning about micro plastics from fabrics polluting
| our waterways, I'm keen to find alternatives.
|
| I had an Australian style rain coat (dense weave, regularly
| reapply wax) as a kid. I couldn't find anything comparable
| locally.
|
| Meanwhile, I got one of those fisherman jackets. I sweat so
| much, the only benefit I get is wind protection.
| cnasc wrote:
| > (dense weave, regularly reapply wax)
|
| Barbour?
| Bayart wrote:
| Or Belstaff. Even Aigle makes pretty good waxed jackets
| on occasion.
|
| But one of the best materials for rain is still... wool.
| tokamak-teapot wrote:
| I have had several wool coats and none of them have been
| at all rain repellent. I've also worn many pure wool
| jumpers and hats in the rain, again none of them holding
| off anything more than the lightest drizzle.
|
| What sort of wool is good for keeping off the rain?
|
| Edit: Wearing (only) a damp wool jumper is fine if you're
| up a mountain and it's not too windy or freezing cold,
| but I'd still prefer to be dry!
| mod wrote:
| Not the GP, so not sure what he was specifically talking
| about, but wool is known for retaining its insulative
| value even when wet.
|
| Yes, you're wet, but you're still warm.
|
| Many outdoorsmen prefer this to the uncertainty of being
| able to keep their gear dry.
| Bayart wrote:
| Yes, that's what I'm talking about. By thick rainy
| weather I love nothing more than a coarse knitted woolen
| sweater and a heavy tweed jacket. It's warm, breathable
| and I'll never stay so long under the rain that it's
| soaked.
|
| As far as strictly waterproofing goes, you do need
| coating or some hybrid material with PU weaved in. IMO
| it's more useful as a wind barrier than anything else.
| Thlom wrote:
| This is why you always use layers with wool closest to
| the skin.
| dheera wrote:
| Is there any reason why aerogel (e.g. PyroGel) hasn't
| caught on as an insulation for winter jackets? The demos
| look pretty impressive:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Ig8rW80uk
| matsur wrote:
| The first jackets using Aerogel as insulation are just
| hitting the market.
| https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-das-
| parka/85350.html?... is one example. The previous version
| of this jacket is a cult favorite; curious to see what
| reviews of the new Aerogel version look like.
| conk wrote:
| Without special treatment aerogel would be damaged by
| movement and moisture that is common with a jacket. It's
| also very costly to produces compared to other insulating
| materials.
| Haemm0r wrote:
| As far as i remember, people wearing clothes with this
| type of insualtion had problems with overheating.
|
| However things may have changed since then
|
| https://www.outsideonline.com/1919251/forget-down--
| aerogel-in...
| dheera wrote:
| Interesting. I was wondering since I've felt cold in
| almost every Gore-tex jacket I have worn. Also it would
| seem to me that using a really thin layer of the aerogel
| stuff could prevent overheating, keep warm while being
| stupidly thin and impressive.
| et-al wrote:
| Gore-Tex is not meant to insulate unless you're talking
| about just the bare skin feel against the inside of the
| jacket. Some Gore-Tex jackets had a mesh liner which
| helps alleviate that cold surface feeling (and protect
| the teflon layer).
|
| If you're interested in insulation for high-exertion
| activities, Polartec Alpha is now the bee's knees.
| unwind wrote:
| Look for Swedish outdoor brand Fjallraven, their G1000
| material is waxed cotton. Not the cheapest but they are
| high quality and wil last.
| michaf wrote:
| I have a couple of pants made from G-1000, and I really
| like it's properties (light, durable, will not retain
| much water, can be made water-repellent with wax), but it
| actually is made from 65% polyester and 35% cotton [1].
|
| [1] https://www.fjallraven.com/uk/en-gb/about-
| fjallraven/materia...
| parsimo2010 wrote:
| They have a few different versions now, but the key to the
| membrane is that it's really thin. It's not like most
| average Joes can make their own even if they buy a bunch of
| PTFE pellets. It's also overkill for most people and daily
| life, but Gore Tex (or some of the newer competitors) is
| worth it when backpacking or biking; you don't want to
| carry the weight of a waxed canvas jacket for a long trip.
| nextos wrote:
| British invented a tightly woven cotton called Ventile for
| RAF pilots, which is waterproof, windproof and breathes
| quite well when not wet.
|
| It has some disadvantages, but it's natural, it doesn't
| burn and it doesn't make funny noises. There are even some
| certified organic variants made in Switzerland by Stotz.
| Many manufacturers in Germany, Scandinavia and UK are
| adding this to some of their jackets, so it's worth looking
| around.
|
| Else, Paramo has developed a clever cloth called Analogy,
| which works in a manner similar to animal fur to push rain
| out and keep you warm. It's not perfect either, and it's
| based on synthetic fibers, but it doesn't have nasty
| plastic coatings. It's used by some mountain guides in my
| region, and when I asked they were quite satisfied.
| m0zg wrote:
| > RAF pilots
|
| AKA people not exposed to the elements most of the time.
| et-al wrote:
| Ventile, long staple cotton, works by absorbing and
| swelling with water; "closing" the weave and preventing
| further water from getting in. However, the inner surface
| of the fabric is still wet, so your clothes underneath
| the jacket can still get wet through capillary action. So
| to mitigate this, oftentimes manufacturers will use two
| layers of Ventile or put a wool liner underneath the
| shoulders.
|
| Also, once thoroughly soaked through, it will take just
| as long to dry as regular ol' cotton. This is why Stotz
| still treats their version, EtaProof, with DWR.
|
| I think Ventile is great, but I think it's better suited
| for situations where you'll return to a heated shelter at
| the end of the night.
| hvs wrote:
| Waxed canvas is used a lot for woodworking aprons. I'd look
| for a waxed canvas rain coat.
| jowiar wrote:
| Barbour is probably the most well-known waxed canvas
| jacket. They're great, especially in areas where rain
| comes suddenly.
| bparsons wrote:
| Try the North face Thermoball line of jackets. I put mine
| through all manner of environmental abuse this year and it
| performed extremely well.
|
| The materials all seem pretty boring sounding.
| marcyb5st wrote:
| I think there are already alternatives. Dyneema fiber is
| superior to GoreTex in almost any way but price (I have
| ultralight backpacks made of the stuff and are amazing).
| Moreover, they are more resistant to UV light than other
| polymers, lowering the chance they end up as microplastics.
|
| If, instead, you are looking for waxable gear, have a look
| at Fjallraven G-1000 series of products. They cost a penny,
| but they are ultra sturdy and, in general, top-notch
| outdoor gear. Moreover Fjallraven should be one of the more
| environmental friendly brands for technical gear ATM.
| paulcole wrote:
| If you could snap your fingers and erase the environmental
| impact Goretex has had on the world, it would be the
| environmental equivalent of squishing a single ant. Yes, you
| did _something_ but that something was ultimately pointless on
| a global scale.
|
| If you're not an alarmist, don't wring your hands over Goretex.
| It is _nothing_ like leaded gasoline.
|
| The modern world is the blight on the environment. We just like
| it too much to ever change. We'd rather think Goretex or not
| separating glass from plastic or using/not using canvas
| shopping bags (depending on how contrarian you're feeling) is
| the culprit. But really it's us and how we like to live.
|
| We should enjoy this ride while it lasts.
| bbarn wrote:
| Everything will kill you, in sufficient quantities. The
| question is whether its use outweighs the risks, and I'd
| venture to say PTFE if called upon to settle accounts has done
| the world more good than harm.
| comicjk wrote:
| That's likely true now, but we have a problem if the harm
| (pollution) accumulates each year and doesn't go away.
| Eventually it may exceed the good.
| nateburke wrote:
| RIP.
|
| Next to "Intel Inside", I can't think of a more successful
| secondary brand in the consumer goods world.
| dirtyid wrote:
| TIL gortex generics is just teflon. Always avoided gortex
| products because they seem to insist on very visible branding,
| but guess I've owned gortex products all my life.
| kag0 wrote:
| The very visible branding is because a) they work very closely
| with the products that get to use goretex, and they guarantee
| those products. So if I buy a Marmot rain jacket with goretex
| and I have a problem with it, I can go to goretex and they'll
| replace it. That's a pretty strong guarantee that consumers
| want to see very visibly. and b) they market hard to convince
| consumers that if it's not goretex, it won't be breathable. A
| bunch of competitors (outdry, event, neoshell, etc) popped up a
| few years ago and lots of companies switched to them from
| goretex, but goretex has since reeled them back in and now we
| see most companies using only goretex again.
| jkestner wrote:
| The most notable thing about WL Gore is that they have a flat
| management structure. Everyone's title is 'associate' in a way
| that'd be laughable at Walmart, they rank each other to
| distribute compensation, and they own the company.
|
| https://www.managementexchange.com/story/innovation-democrac...
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/1984/04/30/g...
| IgorPartola wrote:
| If you want to see Gore-Tex in action, this is a fantastic demo:
| https://youtu.be/dtCdQfbLw7o. Their other videos are very
| entertaining also.
| afterburner wrote:
| Hmm. His rig stretches the fabrics he's testing, when they're
| not meant to be stretched aggressively like that in normal use.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| But that's what he's testing - what happens when you sit on a
| wet seat or kneel on wet ground or have your feet pushed into
| wet boots. That's what you need GoreTex for. It's a stress
| test. They're already trivially waterproof when just sitting
| there that's obvious so no need to test it.
| afterburner wrote:
| But the rig he made was meant to simulate the actual test
| of having a long thin tube of water sitting over a tiny
| section of the fabric. It introduces a lot more widespread
| stretching than the real test would, inflating the fabric
| like a balloon (not just simply applying pressure). I bet
| this affects the water resistance of the fabrics quite a
| lot, beyond what you'd normally apply to it. Do you stretch
| your knee fabric like a balloon when you apply pressure
| onto it to the ground?
|
| Did appreciate the breathability test though.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > Do you stretch your knee fabric like a balloon when you
| apply pressure onto it to the ground?
|
| When you kneel? Yeah it can be subject to a lot of stress
| as it's drawn taught over your knee. And if you had a
| heavy pack on it could be taking 150 kg.
|
| If all you do in your Gore-Tex is stand still in the rain
| it's probably not a valid test - if you're using it for
| outdoors work then it is.
| secondcoming wrote:
| Yes, clearly an invalid test but interesting nonetheless
| puranjay wrote:
| Relevant Seinfeld clip as well:
|
| https://youtu.be/0e58SiFSxLs
| CarVac wrote:
| I'm upset that there was no scatter plot between vapor
| permeability and water resistance.
| bsimpson wrote:
| FortNine is the gold standard of review videos.
| [deleted]
| animationwill wrote:
| >> Among its varied applications, Gore-Tex is used in medical
| devices including heart patches, guitar strings, space suits, and
| vacuum bags.
|
| I have always considered GoreTex to be one of those simple-but-
| brilliant inventions. Tiny pores to prevent water droplets, but
| still breathable, but I had no idea it was also used in medical
| devices or space!
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| drno123 wrote:
| Robert Gore was not the first to discover ePTFE (Gore Tex)
| material, but the prior inventor kept his invention as a trade
| secret. Robert Gore has defended his patent against original
| inventor, won, and then sued anyone who has uses equipment made
| by the original inventor.
| matkoniecz wrote:
| Nice to see patent system working as intended.
| cma wrote:
| How was that possible since that was before first-to-file?
| wtallis wrote:
| The Wikipedia article for Gore-Tex has two citations about
| this, one of which is available online: https://law.resource.
| org/pub/us/case/reporter/F2/721/721.F2d...
|
| A key paragraph from that ruling:
|
| > _Early public disclosure is a linchpin of the patent
| system. As between a prior inventor who benefits from a
| process by selling its product but suppresses, conceals, or
| otherwise keeps the process from the public, and a later
| inventor who promptly files a patent application from which
| the public will gain a disclosure of the process, the law
| favors the latter. See Horwath v. Lee, 564 F.2d 948, 195 USPQ
| 701 (CCPA 1977). The district court therefore erred as a
| matter of law in applying the statute and in its
| determination that Budd 's secret use of the Cropper machine
| and sale of tape rendered all process claims of the '566
| patent invalid under Sec. 102(b)._
|
| It looks like there's an important distinction between
| patenting Gore-Tex the product, and patenting a process for
| manufacturing Gore-Tex.
| racl101 wrote:
| It's Goh-tex!
| davidbanham wrote:
| I heavily favour goretex gear even when the item doesn't really
| need to be waterproof. More than the membrane, I respect gear
| with the goretex label because of the durability standards they
| enforce on manufacturers using their product. I know that this
| piece has been independently tested and it will last me well for
| years before needing replacement.
| projektfu wrote:
| Dang, why drop the identifier "Gore-Tex?" Who cares about some
| guy they can't identify except through their work?
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