[HN Gopher] WSL Getting GUI Support
___________________________________________________________________
WSL Getting GUI Support
Author : pjmlp
Score : 144 points
Date : 2020-09-26 12:56 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (twitter.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (twitter.com)
| sys_64738 wrote:
| It's stuff like this that makes Windows cool again for Linux
| users.
| varbhat wrote:
| Looks impressive. Definitely useful for people who want to
| use/need windows and doesn't want to dual boot. I love how
| Microsoft loves open source by making Linux environment available
| on Windows.
|
| So, Since Microsoft loves open source too much, I also believe
| they are creating Linux Subsystem for Windows where we can run
| Windows programs on Linux.(it may be better than wine because it
| is by Open Source loving Microsoft which created Windows). So,
| Linux users who can't run Programs say Adobewares can then run in
| Linux Subsystem for Windows.
|
| I also hope they will port Microsoft Officewares to Linux too.
| Since, MS loves Open Source, I believe that they will benefit
| Open Source and make Operating System a freedom that must be
| available to all people.
| Icathian wrote:
| I can't tell if this is thick sarcasm or if you've read a bunch
| of press releases I missed. Do you have sources for any of your
| second or third paragraph?
| varbhat wrote:
| Can't you see the word "believe" ? There are many
| articles/news that say Microsoft is loving open source. So,i
| genuinely hope that, in the long run, All Microsoft softwares
| can run on almost all platforms thus blurring the need to
| dual boot to second OS( for ex., A person who runs Linux can
| use Microsoft Excel, Word without dual booting to Windows) .
| That's win-win for users as well as Microsoft.
|
| I didn't claim any false things nor did i preach bad stuff. I
| just preached the importance of OS freedom that many
| dream.That was intention of Microsoft as well which loves
| open source.
|
| https://pulse.microsoft.com/nl-nl/business-leadership-nl-
| nl/...
| MR4D wrote:
| Windows is slowly turning into Linux. Nadella is a genius!
| kyriakos wrote:
| What's important to note is that the average Office/Browser
| user/Gamer has no idea that WSL exists. Its there for
| developers. So Windows is definitely not turning into Linux but
| you can say Nadella made a genius move to keep developers from
| fleeing Windows.
| gabereiser wrote:
| Does this mean Linux is finally going to get that desktop share
| it's been seeking for 20 years? Jokes aside, this is actually
| cool for testing GTK apps.
| baq wrote:
| It's funny because it's true. The best Linux desktop will be a
| Windows box.
| fartcannon wrote:
| The only funny part is that we are still using Windows.
| fartcannon wrote:
| I do this in reverse. I run Windoes in a VM in the ever shrinking
| chance I need it. Proton/wine made the games work and nothing
| else is of value.
|
| I dont need an OS to track my every move. If they want that data,
| they can pay for it.
| SweetestRug wrote:
| Same here. I have a VM ready to go in case I need Windows. I
| just checked and last used it in April... Maybe it's time to
| delete that VM.
| siproprio wrote:
| It's nice, I guess, but WSL2 is awful because it consumes up to
| 4GB of RAM.
| cwxm wrote:
| I would love to run GUI Emacs using this, so this is great news
| for me.
|
| At the same time, does anyone both love WSL, but is also scared
| about Microsoft's strategy here?
|
| I'm at the point where I have a main desktop computer that I use
| for general purpose and gaming, and WSL has been great for me to
| also be able to do few-compromises coding work on it (previously
| had an arch linux partition but was tired of having to reboot to
| access it).
| Shoue wrote:
| If you're like me, and just don't want to shut off Linux to
| play some games, I'd recommend looking into virtualising
| Windows and PCI passthroughing your GPU. I just change the
| channel on my monitor to switch between Linux and Windows, but
| if you have two monitors you can dedicate one to each OS. You
| don't need a hardware kvm switch, evdev lets you swap
| keyboard/mouse control between host and guest OS with
| LCtrl+RCtrl, and audio goes through Pulseaudio.
|
| You get to avoid using WSL and get the full Linux experience
| without compromising gaming - with few exceptions: the more
| extreme anti-cheat software detects VM usage, and that applies
| to a very small set of AAA games.
| gigatexal wrote:
| Well yes. This is phase 2 of 3 the first being embrace (see
| Microsoft loves Linux) and the current one being extending.
| Only here they're extending Windows to cater to Linux use
| cases. The next and final phrase is extinguish. If Windows
| becomes equivalent to running a Linux distribution but can also
| run the entire Windows ecosystem of applications not to mention
| all your games the way they were meant to be played, not via
| proton or any other translation layers, then what will be the
| point of greater Linux adoption among businesses and
| governments? Licensing? All Microsoft would have to do is make
| Windows free and make all that revenue back on upselling Azure
| and/or Office.
|
| Personally I tried WSL2 out and it was pretty good. The problem
| was I was still running Windows and I absolutely can't use to
| UI to save my life. I loathe it. I'm a huge fan of tiling
| window managers and Regolith's my current DE of choice. And
| lucky for me my games run in proton, I work on backend systems
| such that I don't have any dependencies in on anything that
| runs on Windows (Google docs for office work). So I would not
| be WSL's target audience.
| randomfool wrote:
| Step 3 is not extinguish- step 3 is exposing APIs or programs
| in Linux which only work when executing on Windows.
| greggyb wrote:
| I run GUI emacs under WSL with an X server running on Windows.
| mwill wrote:
| I do this as well and it works so well I sort of forget
| that's how I do it until I try to change something or someone
| brings it up.
| fovc wrote:
| Have you managed to get an icon you can double click to
| open? I have to start WSL shell, `emacs &` then ^D. Not a
| huge pain, but would like a Taskbar icon
| wayneftw wrote:
| I'm not scared of their strategy because I'm aware of it.
|
| I'm scared of adding all the unknown problems of Windows to all
| the problems of Linux and then having to depend on that on a
| daily basis.
|
| So, I won't use it. It's too easy to buy a used computer, slap
| a new SSD and RAM in it and run Manjaro Linux. I recommend an
| HP Elite 800 from Amazon for $200-$300. Then if you need
| Windows it's just one KVM/RDP click away.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| That's an irrational fear. WSL2 runs on top of a very well
| vetted VM environment and has it's own well walled off
| sandbox. If you are trapped in windows like I often am it's a
| sufficient replacement for the real thing in 98% of use
| cases. Windows 10 is extremely stable on good hardware from
| well known companies. Just disable all the garbage that runs
| in the background. If you buy bottom barrel you will get what
| you paid for unless you're extremely lucky; same goes for
| linux.
| wayneftw wrote:
| No, it's irrational to think that you won't have to deal
| with the problems of two different OSes when you're running
| two different OSes. Run only one of them and you'll only
| have to deal with the problems of one of them on your daily
| driver.
|
| It's really that simple.
|
| For work, I put Windows out to pasture on a different
| workstation - I hardly ever need it at all (I keep it
| around for for testing and debugging Windows-specific
| issues and when I want to use SSMS instead of Azure Data
| Studio or Visual Studio instead of VS Code which is pretty
| much never), but when I do it's there. For games, I've
| always had separate dedicated Windows machines.
|
| I run Windows on multiple systems and I'm absolutely aware
| of it's stability but also it's problems. One of my biggest
| issues with it is that it ignores my active-hours and
| starts updating right in the middle of me working or
| playing. It's happened time and again on pretty much all of
| my Windows machines.
|
| Another _huge_ Windows problem is that I don 't have any
| control over many things. For instance - they keep re-
| pinning shit to the taskbar after an update. Or, they
| change my settings after an update. Or, they constantly nag
| me with popups or ads disguised as notifications or start
| menu icons.
|
| > If you buy bottom barrel you will get what you paid for
| unless you're extremely lucky...
|
| OK, not sure how that's relevant. I recommended buying a
| very solid, albeit refurbished desktop unit from a major
| manufacturer that I happen to have been running three
| instances of for years now without problem.
|
| > ...same goes for linux.
|
| What does that even mean? My years using Linux as a desktop
| have been filled with _far less_ drama than the years I ran
| Windows as my workstation.
| MikusR wrote:
| The worst thing Microsoft can do is bring more people to Linux.
| squarefoot wrote:
| > The worst thing Microsoft can do is bring more people to
| Linux.
|
| They're doing exactly the opposite. Just wait for the day
| some new killer Linux apps encourages, or even requires, WSL
| rather than native Linux to run properly, or to run at all.
|
| Imagine a window-manager/desktop-environment using the same
| exact windows primitives and behaviour but integrated into
| the WSL Linux OS. That thing would be the killer app a lot of
| Linux users would dream of, it would for obvious reasons run
| only under WSL, and would take away a huge number of non-
| hardcore Linux users. "Why learn a new user interface when
| you can keep the same you're used to, and more importantly
| write Linux software that will make full use of it?".
|
| I desperately want to be proved wrong, but I'm really
| pessimistic about WSL: it is to Linux _exactly_ what WINE is
| to Windows, and will kill Linux pretty much everywhere except
| servers and embedded systems, just as WINE has killed Windows
| on many desktops where the real thing wasn 't necessary.
| mimixco wrote:
| Microsoft has always been about making devs happy _so they
| will sell software to users._ If devs are happy with Linux,
| WSL will make it easier for them to sell those apps to
| Windows users. The community of people who develop software
| is small compared to the audience that runs software, and
| those people are mostly on Windows. MS is doing this to
| keep devs happy and keep them shipping apps for Windows,
| even if the devs live entirely in Linux land.
| wvenable wrote:
| > Just wait for the day some new killer Linux apps
| encourages, or even requires, WSL rather than native Linux
| to run properly, or to run at all.
|
| Why that would exist? If you wanted an app that could only
| run in Windows, you could write it for Windows. Nothing has
| changed here.
|
| The only reason to use WSL is because you want to use Linux
| software or you have a Linux server environment and you
| want to use Windows as your Workstation environment for
| development.
|
| > just as WINE has killed Windows on many desktops where
| the real thing wasn't necessary.
|
| Except, of course, this is running an actual Linux kernel.
| So really it's just putting Linux in Windows and running
| them side-by-side. If anything, it makes moving to Linux
| easier if somehow this becomes even more popular.
|
| The thing is, your attitude is stuck in the 90's and
| Microsoft's isn't. They used to write software for many
| different platforms and they're starting to do that again.
| Microsoft definitely cares less now if you run their
| software on Android, iOS, Windows, or even Linux. They're
| going to make money off of you either way.
| osigurdson wrote:
| I think their strategy is to be a better competitor to macOS
| for development use cases.
| vbsteven wrote:
| This! I'm still on WSL1 and plan on moving to WSL2 during my
| next Sabbath month.
|
| WSL gives me access to all my regular devops and developer
| tools + Linux shell while I don't have to reboot for gaming
| and music production.
|
| I switched about 1 year ago. Windows is now again a solid OS
| choice for developers and I expect lots more developers to
| make the switch with the recent and upcoming MacOS changes.
| mikkelam wrote:
| Yep, with apple killing of nvidia drivers on macOS, i'm
| rolling with windows these days for deep learning
| development. Linux is too much hassle coming from macOS
| madhadron wrote:
| Since I use Windows + WSL at work and macOS for my personal
| machine, I really wish the Windows GUI experience was as nice
| as that on macOS. But it really isn't.
| nathanlied wrote:
| Yeah, pretty much. I don't think they're trying to do the
| embrace-extend-extinguish thing here at all, at least not in
| a "willful" way.
|
| Devs I know of that use macOS do it for the "Linux without
| the jank" aspect - essentially as an "it just works" quasi-
| Linux distro. If Windows could provide the same experience,
| or at least a very similar one, I do believe a good number of
| devs 'raised' on Windows would stay. In my lifetime, I've
| seen more people convert from Windows->macOS due to wanting
| to do dev work in a "Linux-like" environment than anything
| else. It makes sense for MS to want to mitigate that bleed-
| off.
| adsjhdashkj wrote:
| Yup, this is my exact use case. I'm needing more hardware
| and my multiple Macbook Pros are getting old - but i'm not
| satisfied enough with Mac these days to drop $4k on
| upgrading. Apple would have to make me _really_ happy with
| the software (read: bug free, primarily) for me to spend
| the upscaled costs in their ecosystem.
|
| So now i'm installing Windows and Linux, comparing them and
| the ease of use. I don't want _any_ driver problems,
| frankly i just want the OS to get out of my way.
| Historically, Linux has given me such a terrible experience
| with things like "my BT doesn't work, my sound doesn't
| work, my monitor doesn't work" that switching away from Mac
| was viewed as an impossibility.
|
| Now however, i see a way out, and i'm taking it. I've
| experimented with WSL2 and it's shockingly good so far.
| I'll likely install PopOS this weekend to see if i
| experience problems. If i even hint a problem in Linux,
| i'll likely revert back to Windows.
|
| Mac is losing it's lunch imo. But, i get to build a
| workhorse of a PC for the same price i would have given
| Apple - so i'm happy.
| kortex wrote:
| Yup. Definitely feels like "how much dev market share can we
| capture by just putting a nix inside our OS?" Make it
| performant enough to not even seem like a vm. Then get people
| to stay on the platform.
|
| I still find windows usage painful and sluggish compared to
| ubuntu and left in the dust by xubuntu so I'd rather have the
| reverse with a windows vm.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| Windows is not painful and sluggish compared to Linux GUIs.
| It's on par. If your GUI is sluggish it's because you're
| letting stuff like letting crappy antivirus and malware
| detection run in the background or you have an underpowered
| machine for what windows needs. Sure Xubuntu will trash
| Windows on an old P4 however on modern hardware they'll be
| fairly equivalent with windows having a slight edge due to
| better video acceleration. I use both daily and they're both
| responsive environments.
| chrisan wrote:
| > but is also scared about Microsoft's strategy here?
|
| Scared of what?
|
| I have spent years either in Window's inferior environment for
| development or having to dual boot or running something like
| VMWare workstation. I do that because linux is inferior for
| gaming/entertainment. I have never "enjoyed" a single linux
| desktop environment, I spend the majority of my time coding or
| running stuff on terminal.
|
| I'm in my 40s and tired of going back and forth between the
| two. WSL has been a godsend
|
| Linux has as much to be scared about from Microsoft as
| Microsoft has to be scared of Linux gaming
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| Having worked at a few of "the big guys" on hardware, I can
| assure you linux is alive and well there on heavily
| customized linux versions for internal usages for developing
| driver code/OS interactivity for hardware because it is so
| superior to the hoops you have to jump through for Windows.
| Then most all of that experience can be brought over to
| Windows development with lessons learned.
| monadic2 wrote:
| Why are you coding on a gaming/entertainment machine?
| ThrowawayR2 wrote:
| Outside of the HN crowd, it's unaffordable to maintain two
| separate, fairly powerful computers for work and gaming.
| ubercow13 wrote:
| Why do you have a single gaming/entertainment machine?
| Shouldn't those functions also use separate PCs?
| recursive wrote:
| Computers are multi-function, and often general purpose.
| throwaway8941 wrote:
| Why would you have a separate machine just for that? I
| thought one of the strongest points of PCs (as opposed to
| phones/game consoles) was their wide applicability to
| pretty much every task?
| monadic2 wrote:
| Obviously not if they're having to shoehorn Linux in
| there just to attract developers!
| d3nj4l wrote:
| > I do that because linux is inferior for
| gaming/entertainment.
|
| It really isn't any more. I play a _lot_ of games and only
| one so far has refused to work well on Linux, and that 's one
| which is emulated on Windows so I can't blame Linux too much
| for it. And that's on a laptop with nvidia's power-saving
| shit thrown into the mix. As for entertainment, aside from
| Firefox having issues with hardware acceleration, most of
| which have either been fixed or are being fixed, I haven't
| faced any in Linux that I haven't on Windows. That said, I
| don't use HDR, so I can't vouch for that.
|
| On the other hand, I've had significant performance issues
| with WSL, especially on disk use, and I don't really care for
| windows update bugging me all the time and the telemetry. I
| jumped on board Linux with Pop!_OS and it's been a delight. I
| used to be just as negative on Linux, but I have been so, so
| happy I've been proven wrong.
| kyriakos wrote:
| No matter how you see it, games are primarily made to run
| on Windows and the other OS's are an after thought. I am
| not saying it didn't get better but gaming on windows is
| natural and requires no special configuration. A normal
| user who wants to play games if he's not already on a
| gaming console the next best option is Windows.
| sangnoir wrote:
| > No matter how you see it, games are primarily made to
| run on Windows and the other OS's are an after thought
|
| I think this hasn't been true for some time for studio
| games. Most (big budget) games are ported _to_ windows
| from consoles, except for indie titles
| littlestymaar wrote:
| While I agree with you on the fact that it's way easier to
| run games on Linux than ever (especially steam games thanks
| to proton and DXVK, but it trickled down to most games as
| well) and that Linux never had so many supported games, I
| still spent 3 hours to install torchligh 2 the last time I
| wanted to play with it, dispite it being sold as Linux-
| compatible! Oh, and I spent 4 days (not full time
| obviously) installing WoW Classic last year, and it
| involved manually installing a release-candidate of the
| latest kernel. So it's still definitely not for the faint
| of heart.
|
| But at least now it works! (Unless it doesn't because some
| retarded anti-cheat software which doesn't actually
| prevents cheating, gets me banned after a few minutes.
| Looking at you Apex Legends)
| wayneftw wrote:
| Running a gaming/entertainment system on your workstation
| irresponsible. Even before I switched to Manjaro Linux for my
| daily driver workstation, I had separate machines for gaming
| and working.
|
| First of all, because I've seen many a PC game anti-cheat
| software cause system-wide issues.
|
| Second, because I don't even do those things in the same
| room.
|
| Third, because for your common web developer a 2nd PC is
| cheap. You can get a refurbished i5/i7 machine, add a new
| 32GB of RAM and a 512GB SSD for less than $500. [0] This will
| last you for 5 years, easy.
|
| I'm also in my 40s and I like things simple, clear-cut and
| easy. Mixing Windows with Linux is none of those. Dealing
| with one work OS is _by far_ easier than dealing with two of
| them. Also, XFCE runs circles around the Windows GUI while
| providing better features liked a tabbed file browser and a
| taskbar that natively supports all the features that I used
| to have to hack into Windows with 7+ taskbar tweaker.
|
| [0] https://www.amazon.com/s?k=HP+elite+renewed
| mastazi wrote:
| I used to have a MacBook for work (sw dev) and a gaming
| desktop PC for entertainment and hobbies (games, music
| production, photo editing and graphic design).
|
| Until one day, this part wasn't true any more:
|
| > Third, because for your common web developer a 2nd PC is
| cheap. You can get a refurbished i5/i7 machine, add a new
| 32GB of RAM and a 512GB SSD for less than $500. [0] This
| will last you for 5 years, easy.
|
| Unfortunately not all types of dev work can be done on a
| middle-of-the-road machine.
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| Can't you install emacs natively in Windows?
| contravariant wrote:
| You can, although most packages are written assuming Linux
| and getting stuff like tramps to work (which requires paths
| that are apparently impossibly to type in windows), is a bit
| of a challenge.
|
| Of all the issues I've had with emacs about 80% of them could
| be traced to running emacs on windows. Not through any fault
| on windows side mind (except possibly the insane decision to
| use a different path syntax).
| Siira wrote:
| That insane decision has been made deliberately to make
| competitors incompatible.
| enzo1982 wrote:
| No it hasn't. [0]
|
| Unless you want to claim the Unix developers deliberately
| chose the slash as a path separator to be incompatible
| with TOPS-10. That could be.
|
| [0] http://www.os2museum.com/wp/why-does-windows-really-
| use-back...
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| You can but it's extremely hacky to get it all working. It's
| butter smooth just like Linux on WSL as long as you don't
| mind running it in a terminal. I use a fairly complicated
| DOOM emacs install without issues.
| pjmlp wrote:
| No, because:
|
| 1 - throughout all these years Linux developers have been
| giving money to Apple instead of supporting Linux OEMs. Using a
| BSD flavour to target Linux
|
| 2 - Apparently many like the extend done by Google with Android
| and ChromeOS
| Santosh83 wrote:
| Correct me if I'm wrong but unlike your point 2, doesn't WSL
| make the Linux _kernel_ obsolete in the long run? That 'd be
| the Extinguish part which is still far beyond the horizon but
| isn't it something worth thinking about?
| baq wrote:
| Actually it's more likely to go the other way around. What
| do you need the windows kernel for if almost everything is
| cross platform now and/or has a compatibility API layer?
| maple3142 wrote:
| This may be true in WSL 1, but WSL 2 uses actual Linux
| kernel, it won't be a problem. Instead, what will be
| affected is Linux Desktop.
| thejsa wrote:
| Not so much with WSL 2, which Microsoft are focusing on at
| the moment; WSL 2 runs a real Linux kernel in a lightweight
| Hyper-V VM with lots of jazzy integration services.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| That was a short, interesting test but WSL is now a Linux
| VM with nice integration in Windows. So no, it doesn't
| obsolete the kernel in any way. If anything, abandoning
| WSL1 can be considered proof that MS with doesn't have
| enough interest in replacing the Linux kernel.
| kyriakos wrote:
| Microsoft knows that most server applications end up
| running on Linux and not on Windows. The Linux kernel is
| not going anywhere, MS is ensuring it doesn't lose more
| developers to competing OSs. At the same time staying loyal
| to MS probably also means if you need Linux on a the cloud
| you'll opt for Azure instead of AWS or Google.
| jakogut wrote:
| WSL2 actually uses a virtualized Linux kernel, as opposed
| to WSL1, which implemented Linux APIs on top of Windows, a
| la Wine.
|
| Here's the source (literally).
| https://github.com/microsoft/WSL2-Linux-Kernel
| BuildTheRobots wrote:
| > is also scared about Microsoft's strategy here?
|
| Terrified. I'm expecting the next round of secure boot to come,
| this time without the ability to disable or add your own keys.
| To the people that complain they can't boot linux, I expect the
| response to be "but you can run linux from windows, silly!"
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| For me VMs have worked a lot better than WSL on windows. I'm
| not sure why everyone is so opposed to them these days. Near
| native performance, and you get all the linux widgets. Sure it
| takes up a little more disk space and memory but if you're an
| engineer those are minimal costs compared to other factors.
| xondono wrote:
| I'm guessing that means that the half hour I spent getting vcxsrv
| to work with wsl was pretty much lost time.
|
| Oh well, still a nice feature
| baq wrote:
| Run mobaxterm. From zero to X server in 1 minute, zero config.
| jesseb wrote:
| What sort problems did you have? I installed it and exported an
| environment variable and it has since worked flawlessly for me,
| so I'm curious.
| maple3142 wrote:
| Looks impressive.
|
| According to one of the comments, it seems it is running Wayland
| in WSL and connect to it through RDP. Do anyone know why not just
| run Wayland in Windows? Is there any technical limitation? I am
| not familiar with Wayland.
| nikbackm wrote:
| Windows already has RDP, it would need to implement Wayland
| from scratch.
| monadic2 wrote:
| Man I get why this is so exciting but I'd love some more unixes
| that are willing to move beyond PC GUI mechanics, like the use of
| ctrl as a GUI key binding that conflicts with read line bindings.
| The only real alternative are macs.
| SteveNuts wrote:
| How long until windows is just a GUI layer on top of Linux
| kernel?
| throwawaybutwhy wrote:
| One Eric S. Raymond has the same hunch as you. See his latest
| post http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=8764.
| ThrowawayR2 wrote:
| Um, never? The average developer doesn't know or understand
| anything about the kernel, they just like the UNIX shells and
| CLI environment. The popularity of the Mac (which, BTW, doesn't
| use the Linux kernel) is proof of that.
| [deleted]
| recursive wrote:
| Windows wouldn't be windows if it didn't run 20 year old
| binaries with perfect fidelity.
| gspr wrote:
| I don't know, but I feel pretty sure that's where it's heading.
| netdur wrote:
| Won't happen for the same reasons for Google to build Android
| replacement.
| monadic2 wrote:
| Isn't that exactly what android is--an alternative UI on top
| of Linux?
| pjmlp wrote:
| It is more than that, because Linux isn't exposed as such
| to userspace.
| netdur wrote:
| correct but the mess Android have is somehow direct result
| of using Linux's kernel, read about Fuchsia and why it was
| created.
| drbojingle wrote:
| I'm expecting MS/linux in 5 years or less and I think WSL is the
| first step.
| jdc wrote:
| Other than the license and ecosystem, isn't the Windows kernel
| broadly superior?
| userspacethread wrote:
| This is an interesting claim, is there something I can read
| in support of it?
|
| Having worked with the Linux OS APIs and Win32 APIs, they
| both seem to have their advantages.
| sidecut wrote:
| Microsoft already has a Linux kernel.
| https://github.com/microsoft/WSL2-Linux-Kernel
|
| If it were superior for containers, Windows containers
| wouldn't have withered on the vine.
|
| .NET Core being truly cross-platform is pretty much an
| official acknowledgement by Microsoft that Windows is not the
| be-all and end-all. To use their words, they're "meeting
| developers where they live" instead of insisting that one
| size fits all, if that size is Windows.
| rpastuszak wrote:
| A genuine question from someone who hasn't used windows for a
| long time: why do this and not just dual boot? What's the main
| use case?
| hcoura wrote:
| Not why instead of dual boot but why wsl for me.
|
| After more than an year trying to get my laptop (very high dpi)
| and my monitor (high dpi) to have decent fractional scaling on
| Linux so that I could use both screens while working
| comfortably. I decided to try wsl and it is pretty much as fast
| (with my computer/use case), OS just delivers the problem
| above, so I am sticking with it...
|
| Main cons for me right now are:
|
| * windows updates been too aggressively
|
| * not able to easily create/edit hot keys
| d3nj4l wrote:
| I really have to agree on the scaling issue. I spent an
| entire afternoon getting my two displays - one 4k, one 1080p
| - to scale at different values without having stupid issues,
| but I just couldn't get them to work. This is on X because I
| had issues getting Wayland to work (might have been my laptop
| nVidia 1060's fault, tbh). I can't wait for my issues with
| Wayland to get fixed, because I've heard the fractional
| scaling support is much, much better.
| adsjhdashkj wrote:
| I've been debating Linux vs WSL2 recently and this is
| exactly the type of issue that has me pausing on embracing
| Linux Desktop.
|
| I've paid thousands to the Mac ecosystem over the years
| _purely_ to avoid these problems. I just want the OS to
| work, and i 've literally never had that experience on
| Linux. I'm sure it's much much better these days than it
| was the last time i tried, but - everything i hear tells me
| they still exist to some degree.
|
| 4k and 1080p is my exact setup btw haha. I was debating
| installing PopOS this weekend.
| SweetestRug wrote:
| If this is an issue, try using Wayland instead of X11. I
| run PopOS on a similar setup and it works flawlessly
| under Wayland. Give PopOS a try, you won't be
| disappointed!
|
| Edit: there was no configuration needed. I selected
| Wayland from the menu and it just worked right out of the
| box. No bells and whistles, just a great desktop
| experience.
| adsjhdashkj wrote:
| I'll give it a look. Admittedly it doesn't sound
| attractive, because it sounds like the exact bells and
| whistles of configuration that i _don't_ want haha.
|
| The longer i'm a software engineer the less energy i have
| for dealing with my OS, i guess.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| I never tried Pop OS, I might look into it as well since
| it's based off Ubuntu LTS, which I quite like. I'm too
| old for the rolling releases that change constantly. I've
| been using Ubuntu and Redhat for a long time now.
| d3nj4l wrote:
| GGP here - I run Pop (20.04), too, but wayland doesn't
| work for me. As I've said earlier, it might be because of
| my laptop GPU.
| paulsmal wrote:
| it is, once I install nvidia drivers I get no wayland
| support
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| It is much better. Run it in a VM for a while and get a
| feel for it. Pick one of the stable versions like Redhat
| (Centos) or Ubuntu LTS so that you don't have to worry
| about constant updates as you would in Manjaro/Arch. And
| buy linux compatible hardware or system if you plan on
| using it professionally. A preinstalled machine/laptop is
| great for that. Dell and Lenovo have several.
| adsjhdashkj wrote:
| Any recommendation for linux compatible hardware? I'll be
| building a new machine next year and i'd like to make it
| work with Linux, so a buying list would be nice.
|
| I know the CPU/Ram/GPU i want, but i imagine most of the
| trouble is motherboard, since so many features are there.
|
| I'm also curious how my current hardware rates on
| compatibility.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| I've been building my own systems for a while. As long as
| you don't get the absolute newest motherboards you'll
| probably be okay. I have never had an issue with Linux
| and the Asus/MSI boards I've bought. Also like someone
| else said go with an AMD GPU. On a self build you can
| always send parts back. But if you get a laptop and it
| doesn't work with Linux make sure they have a return
| policy :) . They're much more cantankerous in my
| experience. That said if you stick with a mainstream
| Linux like Ubuntu you'll probably be fine with nvidia. I
| just prefer AMD gpu policies because they open source the
| driver code. I think both have had issues with Linux in
| the past, so sometimes you have to try a couple of
| different versions of the drivers. I tend to be
| conservative and not always go with bleeding edge.
| However sometimes that's what works.
| d3nj4l wrote:
| Go with AMD for graphics for sure! Support is so much
| better overall than nVidia.
| adsjhdashkj wrote:
| Interesting, i've heard Nvidia is the way to go. Closed
| source, yes, but still great drivers. I saw some very
| concerning behavior from AMD GPUs, like not releasing
| decent drivers for ages after new cards were released,
| etc.
|
| I also have an Nvidia right now, so.. hopefully it works
| great hah. Otherwise i'll be on Windows.
| 3PS wrote:
| Not sure if you've already seen this, but I highly recommend
| AutoHotkey [1] for setting up hotkeys and hotstrings in
| Windows. It's powerful and flexible, though the language can
| be a little odd at times. You can even script mouse
| movements, or create application-specific hotkeys.
|
| [1] https://www.autohotkey.com/
| recursive wrote:
| Because then you'd have to set up dual boot.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| Why dual boot when you can do your linux work and windows work
| on the same machine? Imagine you write a lot of python code
| that has to work on both linux and windows. You want to dual
| boot for that? Sure for the final set of tests you would run on
| pure Linux but for day to day development WSL is a fine
| substitute.
| adsjhdashkj wrote:
| For me, the draw is Linux without problems using my montiors,
| GPUs, Bluetooth, USB, etcetc.
|
| Which is litaraly the same reason i use(d) Mac, but am now
| looking to move away from. Mac has too many problems, so i may
| as well move on.
| Santosh83 wrote:
| To use both systems simultaneously? Dual boot is either one or
| the other, and even then, adds considerable friction. Many
| Linux distributions don't support secure boot. Sometimes
| Windows updates overwrites the Linux bootloader.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| You need to close all your programs and wait whenever you swap.
| barrkel wrote:
| Because rebooting kills all your running applications.
| grandinj wrote:
| Until recently I was booting into Windows and then remote
| deskoping into Linux. But Wayland has broken that functionality
| so badly I have just given up on Linux. When WSL gets this
| update that will mean I can do development on Linux again for
| the cross-platform GUI I like tinkering on (LibreOffice).
| neodymiumphish wrote:
| Try out X410 from the Microsoft store! It shows for a really
| simple x server interface with WSL.
| zmmmmm wrote:
| The main use case for me, simplistically, is I still don't have
| an equivalent to Microsoft Word that I can run in Linux and
| that is still the standard for business / office applications.
| So I need a Windows desktop I can access ad hoc throughout the
| day interactively as I am doing things. Rebooting to do so
| would be prohibitively time consuming.
|
| Of course, this is terrible, but it is what it is for now. The
| online office apps are slowly creeping towards viability but
| they are still a long way short. When (if) they get there I
| might be able to change this.
| ninjis wrote:
| Develop in Visual Studio and debug your code (with the VS
| debugger attached) in a Linux environment.
| jpalomaki wrote:
| Main use case for WSL is to use Windows desktop and run Linux
| based development tools. Many tools are mostly developed/used
| on Linux and Windows support can be lacking.
|
| This enables also using Linux based IDEs and other graphical
| tools (could be for example some command line tool popping up
| image viewer) or browser.
| maple3142 wrote:
| I use WSL over dual boot just because dual boot takes time, and
| it is more easier to share files between Windows and WSL.
| tyingq wrote:
| It's handy for those of us that use Linux, but also need to use
| things like Adobe tools, Visio, a decent Outlook client, etc.
| bluedevil2k wrote:
| Docker only runs on WSL
| [deleted]
| blacklight wrote:
| It keeps smelling a lot like embrace-extend-exterminate to me,
| and I keep not trusting WSL and advise people to use native Linux
| instead.
| withinboredom wrote:
| To me, it feels like someone got stuck working at Microsoft
| that likes Linux better so they decided to write some code to
| make it happen as a side project. Then somebody noticed... it
| doesn't feel planned to me. But now that person feels happy to
| be working on Linux at Microsoft.
| dgellow wrote:
| How would the steps "extend" and "exterminate" look like in
| this situation?
|
| If Microsoft does anything people don't like with WSL, people
| can move back to another Linux distribution, the cost is almost
| zero to move back to a Debian or Ubuntu.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| Not if you let your workflow get intermingled with Linux
| (WSL) and windows because they worked well together and then
| suddenly Microsoft gets new management and decides to "take
| the company in a new direction"
| est31 wrote:
| Desktop Linux market share has been growing in past years among
| developers, just check the stack overflow surveys. This is MS
| fighting over that market share by providing an alternative.
| They don't do it to help Linux but to protect their own base
| line. For employees this means less ability to justify running
| Linux on developer boxes and having to run Windows like the
| rest of the company.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Nope they do this to cater for the "Linux developers" that
| buy Apple laptops instead of helping Linux OEMs.
| bane wrote:
| The good news is that if Microsoft becomes Micro$oft of old,
| you can just move off Windows and back to just normal old
| Linux.
|
| At the moment though, this brings Linux and the entire Linux
| software ecosystem, a pretty good desktop experience, all of
| the Windows hardware/software ecosystem, and very good
| integration between the two environments.
|
| It's sort of everything that OS X/MacOS used to be with respect
| to a great GUI + _nix CLI. But Apple has given about as much
| attention to the_ nix side of the software as I give the sewage
| lines that run under my house.
|
| With a Windows GUI and a CLI that is one of several distros.
| You get the benefits of the enormous hardware support Windows
| provides, but all of the opensource software the open source
| community provides.
|
| Who knows what the long-term strategy is, but it's suddenly
| made Windows useful as a development platform again, right when
| Apple has started taking their eyes off the ball and has been
| ignoring the *nix side of their platform for years.
| majewsky wrote:
| > The good news is that if Microsoft becomes Micro$oft of
| old, you can just move off Windows and back to just normal
| old Linux.
|
| Not if driver developers say "we don't need to support Linux
| anymore, everyone uses WSL2 anyway".
| bane wrote:
| That is a good point.
| kalium-xyz wrote:
| That is EEE.
| game_the0ry wrote:
| > Not if driver developers say "we don't need to support
| Linux anymore, everyone uses WSL2 anyway".
|
| Disagree. The success of linux has been driven by open
| source enthusiasm, not corporate backing, so I doubt its
| demise will come from a corporation.
|
| And the momentum of OEMs offering linux out of the box
| (Dell, Lenovo, System76, Pinebook) seems to be growing, not
| shrinking.
|
| Linux is winning. Have some more optimism, my friends.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| The big danger of WSL is in drivers. For many hardware vendors,
| driver development is a cost center. It they could just get
| away with writing a single Windows Driver and then rely on a
| Microsoft supplied WSL universal driver which just does pass
| through to the Windows driver, it would cut down on their
| development cost. With GPU pass through, Microsoft already has
| this type of model, where the graphics driver on the Linux side
| of WSL is just a thin shim that calls to the Windows GPU
| driver. In the future, I could see NVidia, making all their
| consumer GPU drivers like this, and reserving native Linux
| drivers for their professional GPUs, which would help them
| segment the market better.
| throwaway8941 wrote:
| As much as I like to crap on nvidia, they have supported a
| relatively high quality Linux driver when it barely
| registered as a desktop platform. Hell, they even have a
| FreeBSD driver.
| kyriakos wrote:
| This is more of "embrace" so the other steps are made obsolete.
| i.e. anyone running windows who ever considered trying linux
| will no longer be tempted since he would probably be able to do
| anything he wanted in windows either way.
| leppr wrote:
| At least for me, a huge part of running a Linux OS is not
| just having access to some Linux-exclusive features, but
| _not_ having Windows anti-features.
|
| WSL does not give you the non-intrusiveness, better
| performance, security, and privacy of a native Linux distro
| installation.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| Linux is definitely better at privacy by leaps and bounds.
| But! Performance, no, there are use cases where windows
| outperforms, and others where Linux does. Security they're
| almost equal with Linux with a slight advantage if you keep
| your OS up to date and fire walled.
| kyriakos wrote:
| Depends on your perspective if you look at it from the
| perspective enterprise where Microsoft makes a lot of its
| money its a different story. The enterprise's IT department
| (which is probably already running Windows with Exchange,
| Office and the rest of MS stuff) faces the following issue:
| Developers want Linux tools, but to IT, it makes sense to
| keep all employees on Windows rather than give developers
| the option of Linux in order to make their management
| easier. With WSL the problem is solved, everyone is on
| Windows and developers get the tools they need.
| rvz wrote:
| Microsoft has created a GPU accelerated DirectX driver with
| Nvidia that only works on WSL 2. That is 'extend'. [0]
|
| I can't begin to imagine if Microsoft starts creating an
| entire Linux development suite of apps that 'requires' the
| presence of WSL and Windows installed.
|
| [0] https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda/wsl
| pjmlp wrote:
| Like Android and ChromeOS?
| mmis1000 wrote:
| It looks they are moving to subscription model now. The don't
| care whether they give software to you for free or not/which
| system are you using because they do earn more from
| subscriptions (azure, office 365, xbox game pass, whatever)
| colesantiago wrote:
| Well, Windows is looking like the best "linux distro" at this
| point, despite it not being free, but mostly widely available
| to most people.
|
| EDIT: OK downvoters, so what's the most popular operating
| system that has Linux on it? pretty sure now it is Windows.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| > what's the most popular operating system that has Linux on
| it? pretty sure now it is Windows
|
| It depends what you call "Linux" obviously, but android runs
| on top of a [forked] Linux Kernel.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| It's still Linux kernel though. Linux is far more machines
| than windows. Embedded computers and phones are computers
| too. If you're talking desktops and laptops of course
| windows is in the lead by a huge amount.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Which is meaningless for userspace apps, as Linux kernel
| isn't part of official Android NDK stable APIs.
| webmobdev wrote:
| Android? And with Android x86 you can run it on PC's too. For
| people who just browse and check emails, it's a pretty decent
| alternative.
| colesantiago wrote:
| Numbers for people who run Android on PCs?
| webmobdev wrote:
| No idea. But Fosshub gives an idea about its popularity:
|
| - Android-x86: 8,352,565 Downloads
|
| - RemixOS: 4,623,342 Downloads
|
| - Phoenix OS: 180,898 Downloads
|
| - Openthos: 166,697 Downloads
| colesantiago wrote:
| Is this of all time? pretty sure you don't want to see
| all time download stats of Windows 10 on desktop...
| suby wrote:
| Do we have usage stats for WSL? I did a quick google search
| and the only thing I found was a laughably biased article
| claiming only around 150k people used WSL1. Just because
| Windows has a much larger userbase does not mean that WSL is
| seeing a lot of usage. It's very possible (and in my
| estimation likely) that the numbers are not even close.
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| We used to use Virtual Box but Oracle.... our company wants
| to never have any Oracle products on any of our stuff. AT
| least with wsl we don't need to worry about that.
| colesantiago wrote:
| Linux on the desktop numbers please? It's been known for
| "pure/native" Linux users to chant this phrase, yet it
| seems that Windows has achieved this.
|
| I will see in the future lots of tutorials, guides,
| software, company support, etc covering not just your
| regular Linux but also WSL, since it's much easier to
| access rather than installing yet another Linux distro
| directly on hardware just to try Linux software.
| suby wrote:
| Wait, what has Windows achieved?
|
| My point was that you can't claim the 100 million+
| Windows userbase as being the largest Linux distribution,
| because almost none of those people (proportionally) are
| actually using WSL.
|
| I don't think we have the usage numbers for WSL. I don't
| think we have the usage numbers for Linux desktop either.
| I personally would be surprised if WSL was the largest
| Linux distro, but either way it's not a claim one can
| make because we don't have the numbers.
| colesantiago wrote:
| > Wait, what has Windows achieved?
|
| It has achieved Linux on the _Windows_ desktop without
| dual booting, all unified, download whatever distro you
| want.
| mimixco wrote:
| Right! Distribution of apps is about where the user lives,
| and that's Windows. Devs will be able to live in Linux and be
| happy and their apps will simply work in Windows and users
| don't care. It's win-win-win for devs, users, and MS.
| bachmeier wrote:
| That view would have been reasonable 15 years ago. MS didn't
| embrace Linux because they want to be nice, but because they
| realized a desktop OS monopoly is completely useless in the
| mobile era. A big chunk of software developers prefer Mac or
| Linux. Work in the cloud is done on Linux. People use Windows
| at home/work because it's what they've been using for 25 years.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Android, ChromeOS.....
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| And the vast majority of people still do. Linux isn't going
| anywhere. Microsoft will get injected with the open source
| virus as well, it's almost inevitable.
| mhh__ wrote:
| This is also why I try to use the GPL where possible. The move
| towards permissive licences puts the open source world in the
| hands of the companies as opposed to having a legal guarantee
|
| Open source is in at the moment but it might not be in the
| future (especially if we go all in on the cloud)
| raesene9 wrote:
| From a Microsoft perspective, this feels like damned if you do
| and damned if you don't.
|
| If they didn't embrance linux style tooling, they get told that
| they're anti-open source and that Macs will always be a better
| development environment when you're targeting Linux servers.
|
| If they do embrance Linux style tooling, they get told it's EEE
| all over again.
|
| I've been following the development of WSL, Terminal and VS
| Code. It doesn't strike me that this is some corporate EEE
| style policy, more it's a directive to make Windows as
| developer friendly as possible.
|
| There's quite possibly an ulterior motive here, but it's more
| "make deploying onto Azure the happy path" than anything else.
|
| WSL+VS Code+Terminal+Docker for Windows+Github == more business
| running their workloads on Azure == more money for Microsoft.
| Impossible wrote:
| This is one of the more sane comments on this thread. There
| is a lot of paranoia about MS wanting to somehow "corrupt"
| Linux because some web developers are having IE6 flashbacks.
| Sure if it was still 1999 I'd be scared of that, but now
| Microsoft's biggest growth business is Azure, so this move is
| largely about supporting Azure usage, not about creating a
| weird Linux Windows hybrid to lock developers out of proper
| Linux distros. The rest all comes from MS being developer
| friendly, which has always been a part of their culture on
| the tools side
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| Not to mention the uptake of proper linux desk top distro's
| is a rounding error in the big scheme of things. They need
| to worry more about Apple and Google. And Apple has done
| more to EEE Linux than Microsoft is going to do.
| themacguffinman wrote:
| It's like you don't understand EEE at all. Of course this
| move is largely about supporting Azure usage, it just
| supports Azure usage by locking developers out of proper
| Linux distros.
|
| When you use the proprietary DirectX extension in WSL,
| you're not developing for Linux anymore, you're developing
| for WSL, a proprietary package. And now that you're reliant
| on DirectX/WSL/Windows, what cloud provider are you going
| to pick? You see, the Azure Advantage (TM) is that only
| Microsoft knows how to run DirectX on Linux effectively,
| because only Microsoft can inspect and modify the code. The
| Azure Advantage (TM) is that only Microsoft has the
| proprietary rights for Windows, so Microsoft can charge
| their competitors anything they want while offering it on
| Azure at a (relatively) affordable price.
| darksaints wrote:
| Unfortunately it doesn't make it more friendly to developers.
| If they wanted to make it more friendly to developers, they
| would release a Microsoft Linux distribution. Maybe port some
| critical dev tools. There are far too many incompatible
| quirks with Windows to ever make it a reasonable development
| platform when targeting Linux.
| tjoff wrote:
| WSL2 is a virtual machine. It is way more than a reasonable
| development platform for linux and it is very much friendly
| to developers, much more so than another distro would be.
|
| As a linux user I'm immensely happy that I can use the same
| shell-scripts and applications on windows machines as I do
| on linux. And that I can just SSH into it (and use the same
| tools, SSHing into powershell doesn't help much if you
| don't know or use powershell for anything else). It makes
| coexisting so much more comfortable.
| themacguffinman wrote:
| If they were just embracing Linux, it wouldn't be so
| nefarious. You're missing that they're already starting the
| "Extend" phase with proprietary DirectX extensions for WSL,
| encouraging developers who normally favor the Linux
| environment to instead target the WSL, which is Windows only.
|
| This isn't just making deploying to Azure the happy path.
| This is ensuring that a generation of software in the Linux
| environment only works on Windows' WSL.
| threatofrain wrote:
| Embrace-extend-exterminate is an objective strategic risk which
| exists regardless of Microsoft's current executive culture.
| With Microsoft now controlling an important part of dev
| tooling, i.e. stuff like VSC, TS, Github, Azure, the risk is
| very real.
| tiku wrote:
| Why is this so special?
| https://virtualizationreview.com/articles/2017/02/08/graphic...
| lower wrote:
| Here is a presentation with more technical details:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2mnbyRgXkY&t=7975
| fowl2 wrote:
| One of several presentations Microsoft had XDC, no less. Yes,
| the X.Org Conference.
|
| They basically souped up the FreeRDP Weston backend (plus a
| bunch of glue to make it more magical, and some buffer sharing
| stuff with VMs)
| tjoff wrote:
| Thanks, haven't watched the whole thing but I like what I see.
| I also like that this isn't WSL specific. You can do it from a
| real linux-machine or VM from another host. It also adds
| wayland applications and not just X11.
|
| Hope that this is something that will spur some
| wayland->wayland equivalent (since they base it on weston it
| might be possible to reuse a lot).
| mimixco wrote:
| This is part of their ongoing campaign to "featurize" Linux as
| just another part of Windows. It's not going to be extinguished.
| Quite the contrary; it will be easier than ever for devs to work
| with Liunux and FOSS and for users to consume those apps on
| Windows (where the users are). Users don't care where software
| runs or how and by folding Linux into Windows, everyone gets what
| they want. It's brilliant, really.
| colesantiago wrote:
| Linux on the desktop is finally here on Windows.
| ruffrey wrote:
| I'd settle if it just had proper chmod support. Seems like
| putting the cart before the horse.
| adsjhdashkj wrote:
| I assume you're referring to the integration between Windows
| and Linux?
|
| Because WSL2 i've not had a single "chmod" issue, .. not sure
| why i would. Chmod _within linux_ works just like you 'd
| expect. However permissions across the OS boundary is another
| story.
|
| Though TBH i'm not sure what you'd expect from chmod'ing files
| in the Windows side. Seems unfair to expect Linux-centric
| behaviors to work on the Windows installation. Eg you wouldn't
| expect to be able to put Windows applications inside Linux
| Containers, right?
| zarkov99 wrote:
| Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.
| sys_64738 wrote:
| Microsoft has a different moral compass nowadays. They need
| Linux to survive to grow their business so it makes sense to
| integrate such support into their desktop environment. We all
| win.
| zarkov99 wrote:
| It also makes sense if you want to keep developers from
| switching to Linux desktops. I for one, think that most
| developers, especially young ones, would be far better off
| migrating fully to Linux.
| ThrowawayR2 wrote:
| Nobody was switching to Linux on the desktop; its desktop
| market share has remained steadily negligible for the past
| twenty years. I'll wager this is aimed at unseating Mac as
| the UNIX-alike development environment of choice.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| Most developers work in huge companies that give them a
| workstation with Windows pre-installed, mostly because
| Windows is much easier to administrate at scale.
| zarkov99 wrote:
| Is that really true if the users are experienced in
| Linux?
| GordonS wrote:
| Yes. Huge companies don't care one iota what you are
| experienced with - _everyone_ gets a standard-build
| Windows machine (loaded with antivirus, endpoint
| protection and DLP, which combined use half of your CPU),
| or if you build for iOS, a standard-build MacOS machine.
|
| Linux is huge in the server space in big business, and
| _completely_ insignificant in the desktop space.
| sys_64738 wrote:
| It is as you just re-image a laptop if it goes awry. AD
| is everywhere so that's how you can control and lockdown.
| I can't even install non-approved apps on my developer
| laptop running Windows. I can't install approved apps
| either without the correct authority from three layers of
| management.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _It also makes sense if you want to keep developers from
| switching to Linux desktops_
|
| Well, the huge majority of developers didn't switch en
| masse to Linux desktops for like 3 decades. The Linux
| desktop stats were still meagre, even right before WSL. It
| wasn't about to happen now...
|
| This is more about making existing Windows using devs life
| easier for working with Docker / etc to develop for the
| Linux-driven server side (which has been a think for 2+
| decades), than about preventing them from switching to
| Linux.
|
| If anything, this is the opposite. It helps introduce the
| 95% of Windows using devs to Linux and UNIX userland while
| they're still on Windows -- which could serve as a gateway
| to using Linux directly.
| rvz wrote:
| > We all win.
|
| Windows users win. The Linux desktop loses.
|
| The Linux desktop has now been made even more irrelevant for
| new developers as Microsoft merges it with a Windows desktop.
| snarfy wrote:
| Wayland was released 12 years ago. Should we keep waiting?
| The Linux desktop already lost. You can attribute it to a
| lot of things, but it's nothing to do with WSL.
| d3nj4l wrote:
| Everybody who ever claims something is EEE should be required
| by law to explain what the "extinguish" portion will involve.
| squarefoot wrote:
| I try to explain it in my previous comment.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24598895
| diffeomorphism wrote:
| No, that is entirely premature and also kinda trivial. This
| is "embrace". Then you "extend" it. Then when you have
| extended it enough, you break compatibility with the non-
| extend stuff.
|
| "By law you should be required to explain how to extend it to
| make it a success in the market place that people will rely
| on". Sure, do you also want the law to require building a
| successful business for me? And a free pony?
| coldtea wrote:
| That didn't happen in the 90s, when MS actually pursued it and
| Linux was a tiny newcomer.
|
| What makes you think it has any relevant in 2020?
| GordonS wrote:
| Seeing these same low-effort, tired meme, pointless, reddit-
| style comments on every.single.post about something good from
| Microsoft is _really_ boring.
|
| Microsoft behaved like a right cunt in the 90's, before many HN
| users were even born - we know, we get it, but it was _decades
| ago_ FFS.
| ubercow13 wrote:
| I remember doing this using X forwarding 10 years ago. Of course
| there is the potential here to implement something more
| performant, but for things like development tasks where 3D
| acceleration isn't so important, this has been possible since
| forever. So I wonder what's so exciting about it?
| jpalomaki wrote:
| It's convenient to get everything out-of-the-box with minimal
| configuration and supported by the operating system vendor.
|
| I think that's the main point of the WSL. Most of the things
| people are using it for could have been done for years with a
| separate Linux VM, but getting smooth experience was not
| trivial.
| coldtea wrote:
| Did "X forwarding" give you seamless access to local Windows
| files automatically? Did it work with microphones and other
| peripherals like this says it does?
|
| Heck, was it even built-in into Windows with first-class
| support from Microsoft?
|
| That's what's so "exciting about it".
| ubercow13 wrote:
| Not automatically, but yes if you set up a network share?
|
| I mean yes, the fact everything is set up by default and
| supported is very nice, and some integrations are better than
| they would have been before such as sharing peripherals. But
| we are talking about something that is specifically for
| developers here. Many people are saying that WSL has finally
| let them use Windows for development, as if it was really
| impossible before before.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _Many people are saying that WSL has finally let them use
| Windows for development, as if it was really impossible
| before before._
|
| It didn't have to be impossible for them to say that.
|
| A subpar, messy to setup, and incovenient experience (as it
| was) would have been enough to make it unusable...
|
| I've used X-Window servers to servers, plus local Cygwin on
| Windows in the past. I'd take WSL over that any day of the
| week...
| SweetestRug wrote:
| Exciting, but let's see how long this takes to be released (not
| to insiders). I was excited when WSL 2 was announced, but it took
| almost a year to be released to stable. I had immediate needs
| that WSL 1 couldnt meet, and I could not run Insiders builds in
| my environment.
|
| By the time WSL 2 actually was out, I had migrated completely to
| Linux. I'll keep checking MS progress here, but in many ways they
| already lost me and many others.
| dstaley wrote:
| I'm glad Microsoft is doing development out in the open, but I
| really wish they'd do a better job of isolating features like
| WSL from the underlying OS. I'd gladly run an insider build of
| WSL, but with their track record of stability for their general
| releases, it terrifies me to think of running an Insider build
| of Windows.
| kalium-xyz wrote:
| This reminds me: Remember when apple tried to hire Linus as a
| full time employee on the condition he would quit Linux?
|
| https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/9a6rpk/18_years_ago_...
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