[HN Gopher] Purism's AweSIM - monthly plan for Librem5 including...
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Purism's AweSIM - monthly plan for Librem5 including unlimited data
Author : krimeo
Score : 110 points
Date : 2020-10-01 16:53 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (puri.sm)
(TXT) w3m dump (puri.sm)
| lol768 wrote:
| 99 USD a month?!
|
| I pay 18.80 GBP a month for this.
| boogies wrote:
| You pay 18.80 GBP for
|
| > A phone number registered & operated under Purism
|
| > Help fund additional developmental services offered from
| Purism
|
| ?
|
| I don't think anyone's arguing that everyone wants this, but I
| think it (including "privacy as a service" as part of point 1)
| is 2/3 of the value proposition.
| alexktz wrote:
| Comparing a dense urbanized island to the vastness of the US
| isn't really a fair comparison.
|
| I'm not suggesting that $99 isn't too much, just that to expect
| price parity when the average subscribers per square mile is
| vastly different isn't realistic.
| monksy wrote:
| I paid $8 USD a month for 62gb a month and 600 minutes of
| international calling.
|
| (It was in a country of >1billion people)
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| It's running on existing T-mobile or ATT networks (MVNO), so
| they're not competing on building towers or anything.
| https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone-plans claims that tmo
| will give you unlimited everything for $70/mo for a single
| line. So what's Purism giving you?
|
| EDIT: rereading it, it looks like the extra cost is giving
| you some privacy benefits and helping fund them.
| trewtip wrote:
| You pay GBP for service in the US?
| everdrive wrote:
| Which is why there are so few privacy-conscious options in the
| market. People won't pay for them.
| [deleted]
| akerro wrote:
| So the remaining $74.75 covers not tracking you and supporting
| opensource hardware.
| blendergeek wrote:
| And open source software.
| obenn wrote:
| Does this include a lease of a phone unit?
| codezero wrote:
| looks like no: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24654665
| moojacob wrote:
| I appreciate free software and privacy, and it's cool to have a
| company that genuinely understands both of those.
|
| But it hurts that Purism uses their monopoly over their niche to
| upcharge customers so much.
|
| edit: I'm wrong. Didn't know about their financial woes.
| pengaru wrote:
| > But it hurts that Purism uses their monopoly over their niche
| to upcharge customers so much.
|
| Monopoly? Purism barely exists as a company.
|
| This is just another desperate attempt to get some cash flow, I
| don't think they've even managed to ship the gen1 phone to all
| the backers yet.
| compsciphd wrote:
| we pay anywhere between $64-$80 a month (depending how many lines
| use over 2GB of data) for 3 lines of service on t-mobile that are
| unlimited all 3 ways (with the normal deprioritization that
| probably happens with this as well if going over 50GB a month,
| which we don't).
|
| basically, I don't buy the significant value in their privacy
| mode (perhaps it has value to others, but not so much to me). I
| can see the value in supporting the development of the phone, but
| its a very significant delta in cost.
| jdofaz wrote:
| They don't provide enough information on that page to justify the
| price IMHO.
| obenn wrote:
| The premise of essentially proxying customers into a major
| carrier in aggregate to preserve privacy is an interesting one.
|
| I use such a service for home internet in Ottawa, Canada
| (https://ncf.ca) and it's been working great - with much better
| customer service.
| aDfbrtVt wrote:
| As an aside, I really hope NCF gets access to Bell Fiber!
| voiper1 wrote:
| In the USA, of you want to use all the features, the IRS and
| many banks _require_ an cell phone registered in your name to
| prove your ID.
|
| Assumedly, this number will not work for that...
|
| EDIT:Bi previously said that the irs required you to have a
| phone in your name. That was incorrect. I meant to refer to the
| full secure online access: You can verify by phone or mail, and
| they disabled mail option during covid a while ago.
|
| https://www.irs.gov/individuals/secure-access-how-to-registe...
| justinc8687 wrote:
| I use Visible (a Verizon MVNO), which doesn't participate in
| these systems. Recently I had to verify with the IRS. While I
| couldn't use my phone to instantly verify, I was still able
| to be verified by them sending me a postcard. Annoying, but
| certainly not required.
| voiper1 wrote:
| During covid, they weren't offering the authorization by
| mail. Not sure of current status.
| koolba wrote:
| That sounds like it's _more_ secure.
| bbbbbr wrote:
| I hadn't heard of this carrier before and it made me
| curious what the rest of their privacy was like, and
| whether this part of a overall policy. I didn't see
| explicit mention of opting out of the systems you
| mentioned. Is that stated anywhere officially, or is it
| just unofficial?
|
| Their privacy stance overall looks just ok, maybe somewhat
| above average.
|
| It does make me wonder how strong of a privacy stance
| Purism will take, or will be able to take as a service
| provider.
|
| Some emphasis added, and some info trimmed (noted with
| ellipses ...)
|
| https://www.visible.com/legal/privacy/
|
| ... I. COLLECTION OF INFORMATION We collect information
| when you use our service. This includes information about
| the calls you make and receive, text messages you send and
| receive, ___websites you visit, mobile applications you
| use___, and wireless network and device information,
| including location, Internet protocol (IP) address and
| connection speed, mobile telephone number, ___device and
| advertising identifiers___, browser type, and operating
| system. Some Visible devices include Verizon-provided
| system applications that collect information about network
| and device conditions, which is used to secure and improve
| our network and services. ...
|
| II. USE OF INFORMATION
|
| ... * Determine products and services that may interest you
| and market them to you, including on Visible sites and apps
| and on others' sites, services, apps and devices as
| described in Section V below ...
|
| III. DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION
|
| * Authorized service providers and partners. We share your
| information with service providers and partners that help
| us with a variety of things, including development and
| delivery of our sites, apps and service. ... ... *
| Aggregated and De-identified Information. We may aggregate
| or otherwise de-identify information and use it for our own
| purposes or share it with third parties for their own
| purposes. ...
|
| ... Your Right to Say "Do Not Sell"
|
| The CCPA gives you the right to say no to the sale of
| personal information.
|
| We do not sell information that personally identifies you
| such as your name, telephone number, mailing address or
| email address.. We allow Verizon Media and third-party
| advertising companies to collect information about your
| activity on our website and in our app, for example through
| cookies and similar technologies, mobile ad identifiers,
| pixels, web beacons and social network plugins. These ad
| entities use information they collect to help us provide
| more relevant Visible advertisements and for other
| advertising purposes. This activity may be considered a
| sale under the CCPA. Visit the Digital Advertising
| Alliance's Consumer Choices page to learn more about how
| you can limit this type of advertising. App users can opt
| out by using your device settings to "Limit Ad Tracking"
| (for iOS devices) or "Opt out of Ads Personalization" (on
| Android devices) ...
|
| (edit: formatting)
| rsync wrote:
| Can you contrast visible with US mobile? I chose US mobile
| over straight talk because they allowed tethering...
| RandomBacon wrote:
| StraightTalk allows upto 10GB of tethering on non-AT&T
| sim cards with the "unlimited" plan. On AT&T sim cards
| with a limited-data plan, they don't care if you tether.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| I'm not sure why it's being downvoted, in the UK a phone
| account in your name is one of the most common forms of ID
| there is no universal government issued ID, not everyone has
| a drivers license or a passport and if you are living in a
| flat share or student accommodations you won't have utility
| bills in your name.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > In the USA, the IRS and many banks _require_ an cell phone
| registered in your name to prove your ID.
|
| The IRS most certainly does not require a cell phone
| registered in your name, nor could they.
| gopalv wrote:
| > The IRS most certainly does not require a cell phone
| registered in your name
|
| They don't but the alternative 2FA for them was a letter
| mailed through USPS.
|
| I had to do that back in the day when Google Fi wasn't
| recognized by the IRS as a mobile phone.
| swiley wrote:
| So people with landlines can't pay taxes?
|
| Last time I manually filled taxes this wasn't something I had
| to do.
| morpheuskafka wrote:
| None of the banking I have ever done has involved a phone
| number other than confirming that the phone I am calling from
| matches the number I entered in online banking, and receiving
| 2FA codes to that number.
|
| When I opened the account in person, I needed a photo ID
| (driver license) and social security card (proof of SSN).
| Online, I surprisingly did not need the driver license at
| all, just had to provide SSN and e-sign a thousand forms.
| Phone number was not required and was not checked beyond
| confirming it was mine with a text code.
| RandomBacon wrote:
| > the IRS and many banks _require_ an cell phone registered
| in your name to prove your ID.
|
| That has not been my experience with the IRS and my banks.
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| I'd be super uncomfortable to tie my account recoveries and
| stuff to a SIM technically subscribed to by another entity...
| But if I wanted a phone for leaking or whistleblowing, it's
| hard to imagine a better choice of service.
| kanox wrote:
| Isn't this the same thing as a VPN?
| swiley wrote:
| I think it additionally protects people from identifying you
| by your phone number without a subpoena.
| dsr_ wrote:
| No, it's a financial blind: from the telco's point of view,
| the only subscriber is Purism. From your point of view, your
| telco is Purism.
|
| Nevertheless, once you start spending 8 hours/day in the same
| spot for days on end, it will be pretty easy to link you from
| tower records to traffic, and then to your real world
| identity.
| lrvick wrote:
| Those like me who dislike cell carriers selling our
| location data are best off using cellular data sparingly
| and not consistently at fixed locations when there is
| available wifi.
|
| Combining this with financial blinding and you can likely
| use LTE at a protest in an oppressive country without much
| chance you get pinned down there and arrested later.
| boogies wrote:
| This: you can keep a Librem 5's modem's hardware kill
| switch flipped to off when you're staying in the same
| place for 8 hours.
| laksdjfkasljdf wrote:
| Who does the proxying? Does it expose all your traffic to yet
| another entity?
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| Well I think the idea is that you are simply exposing your
| identity to a _different_ entity, not _another_ one, since
| your identity isn 't passed down the chain.
|
| Given that it's (probably?) impossible to use cellular
| internet without handing over your ID to at least one entity,
| the target audience of this plan is probably one that would
| prefer that entity to be one for which privacy is a primary
| concern.
|
| (This is why I always wished Apple would become a cellular
| provider.)
| swiley wrote:
| I live in the US and I've definitely bought sim cards and
| activated phones without sharing an ID.
|
| I even proceeded to (unknowingly) break the law with one of
| the phones I bought from target. (apparently you're not
| supposed to use prepaid phones for balloon tracking.)
|
| Not that it matters, they can still subpoena the place you
| got the phone from and now they have a video of you.
| blendergeek wrote:
| In today's world you will be wearing a mask so if you add
| a ballcap and keep your head down, identification will be
| difficult.
| RandomBacon wrote:
| And keep your electronic devices off.
|
| Target uses your devices radios to track your movements
| in a store. I wonder if they also use it to correlate
| cash purchases.
|
| One of many articles about this:
| https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/21/shops-
| tra...
| lrvick wrote:
| This is perhaps the first time in generations the outcome
| of a major negative world event made more privacy
| socially acceptable.
| RandomBacon wrote:
| In the US, you can buy prepaid sim cards with cash and
| without ID.
| m463 wrote:
| But I believe these are scrutinized pretty heavily. I saw
| an article Woz wrote and you have to call someone before
| they are activated - I guess that might be a 6dof thing
| to identify your habits.
| lrvick wrote:
| I know of a hackerspace where people go buy and activate
| prepaid sims then toss them in a communal bowl.
|
| Take a sim leave a sim.
|
| There are always ways around this nonsense.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Interesting. Similar premium. Their 50/10 costs the same as my
| 1000/1000.
| pixxel wrote:
| $99 a month. I had to read the page twice to check that the phone
| itself is included. It's not.
| renewiltord wrote:
| How are they doing this? I thought the KYC stuff was necessary
| for anti-terrorism laws. Am I mistaken and they do that for other
| reasons?
| gok wrote:
| > We register your phone number in our name on your behalf and
| keep your personal and financial data private and out of the
| hands of companies who would sell it to others.
|
| Presumably they have the information and will respond to a
| warrant but won't tell the carrier they're MVNO'ing who you
| are. This isn't that weird; for "work phones" companies often
| get a pool of SIMs registered to them which they then pass out
| to employees, and AT&T or whoever doesn't need to know who's in
| possession of each one at every moment.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Oh! I didn't know that! I thought work phones also had to
| comply with KYC at the carrier level. Well, tee eye ell.
| itake wrote:
| > unlimited service
|
| "limited to United States"
|
| I hate it when marketers say one thing, but the contract says the
| exact opposite.
| m463 wrote:
| Well it is a US-based company. It's also VAT free :)
| hackmiester wrote:
| Not being able to port a number to them is kind of a non-starter
| for me.
| avodonosov wrote:
| I don't understand, is this offer worldwide? Difficult to imaging
| this offer is valid for Belarus.
|
| Or that only in San Marino (judging by the .sm domain)?
| caffeinewriter wrote:
| Down towards the bottom it seems like it's only presently
| available in the US, and they're simply using `.sm` as a clever
| domain name hack/gccTLD (e.g. .io domains, .ly domains, etc)
| eugeniub wrote:
| Sorry guys, "privacy as a service" should not cost $1,200 per
| person per year. Hard pass.
| m463 wrote:
| There might be a counter-argument that being identified and
| tracked also has a dollar amount associated with it.
|
| It might be the personalized pricing you get, just because they
| know your zipcode.
| freeopinion wrote:
| I think ~$840 of that is for dialtone, data, texts, etc. The
| other ~$360 is for PaaS and to be a Purism booster. It's up to
| you how much of is about being a booster and how much is about
| PaaS.
|
| Perhaps you object more to the $840 than the $360? Did you see
| the price of the phone?
|
| Edit: s/phone/dialtone/
| gandalfian wrote:
| $99 a month?
| shuringai wrote:
| pretty sure this'd be illegal in the EU where all simcard holders
| are required to tie the card to their ID documents by law, and
| there's a yearly checkup on these data
| kefyras wrote:
| No such law exists EU wide.
| microcolonel wrote:
| If I could do dual-SIM on one account for 99 bucks and get both
| AT&T and T-Mobile backends, that would be killer. The only thing
| more killer than that would be swapping one of them for Verizon.
| DenisM wrote:
| You can do all of that on a recent iPhone.
| zeveb wrote:
| But then you'd be stuck with an iPhone, not running Linux,
| unable to develop, run and share free software.
| twiclo wrote:
| You're not going to convince anyone interested in a librem to
| get an iphone
| m463 wrote:
| I have an iphone and it's the other way around.
| hackmiester wrote:
| I think that's an oversimplification. The iPhone was the
| closest practical alternative, last time I purchased a
| phone.
| alpaca128 wrote:
| I don't see how the iPhone is as good in terms of privacy
| as Sailfish OS or Android without Google apps.
| 188201 wrote:
| The UI layer is closed source in Sailfish OS, so not
| better than iPhone in this case.
|
| For Android, if getting a Lineage OS in phone, the first
| problem is Lineage OS still does not have automatic
| update without manually reboot into recovery mode, and
| need for user invention. Let's be honest I don't bother
| to update because of requiring human intervention in
| update until I find the time to do it. Not a good
| practice but hey...
|
| Secondly, any phone could be dropped support by Lineage
| OS if the developer of that model just starts using
| another phone and cannot find another to continue
| supporting the phone.
|
| The best option for privacy seems to be using GrapheneOS
| with Pixel phones, but GrapheneOS only supports as long
| as the support cycle of a pixel phone, so it is 3 years
| before end-of-life minus the time to develop GrapheneOS
| ROM for a new pixel phone. If you are going to value your
| privacy so much then this is the best, but a quite
| expensive route and not really environmental friendly.
|
| An iPhone can receive update as long as Apple the company
| is not bankrupted. Well, you get a worse performance
| after update but at least it is an option to continue to
| use.
| kdrag0n wrote:
| Devices with official LineageOS support will get OTA
| updates. Newer devices with A/B partitions will even get
| seamless updates like stock, where the update is applied
| in the background and the user just needs to reboot to
| use the new version.
| DenisM wrote:
| Right, I spaced out for a moment and forgot the topic. Doh.
| microcolonel wrote:
| > _You can do all of that on a recent iPhone._
|
| Not sure what you mean exactly, I'm talking about the
| service, not the basic existence of dual-SIM functionality
| (something I already have).
| jdillaaa wrote:
| As a few others have pointed out I'm not sure I buy the privacy
| argument here (although there is very little to go on on the
| linked page..)
|
| Having your phone radio on at all (even without a SIM, e.g. E911
| calls) is inherently privacy violating. If you must have
| connectivity on the go, any prepaid SIM + always on VPN will do
| the trick. Use Twilio if you want multiple numbers.
|
| $99/mo is ludicrous, even if this actually works, which I have
| doubts about given the history of purism.
| fabrice_d wrote:
| I asked them to elaborate on the privacy angle, and they
| answered (https://forums.puri.sm/t/announcing-librem-awesim-a-
| privacy-...) that a key point is that the SIM is registered in
| Purism name instead of the end user one. That would shield you
| from some id based tracking.
| jdillaaa wrote:
| Yeah I mean a prepaid SIM + top up with cash is < $30 USD.
|
| It just feels like they're taking advantage of people.
|
| Although now that I think about it I wonder how they do E911?
| Sounds like a liability
| [deleted]
| bubblethink wrote:
| Is there anything more to it than a bit of billing indirection ?
| Hard to see any privacy benefits of that. How is it better than
| buying a prepaid sim ?
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