[HN Gopher] The End of the American Internet
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The End of the American Internet
Author : 1cvmask
Score : 63 points
Date : 2020-10-03 18:21 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ben-evans.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ben-evans.com)
| jariel wrote:
| America didn't have a 'monopoly' over anything, because America
| is not a single entity and there is nothing remotely resembling a
| strategy or coordinated.
|
| China is a little different there.
|
| The most poignant artifact from the article relates to the fact
| that TikTok is a 'first' for America, in that they've had to deal
| with something for the first time, which is a major foreign
| entity with different world views on their turf. It's should be
| added that China/CCP is a dystopian surveillance nightmare with a
| politicized justice system and effective CCP control of all major
| companies at least as far as messaging, surveillance and
| censorship is concerned.
|
| But it's worth considering and it's interesting the press has not
| bee up on in for some time - we're in a 'brave new world' in
| software and services and it needs to be talked about.
| Aachen wrote:
| This sums up how I feel about the whole tiktok/huawei thing as a
| European. An interesting part of it not mentioned in the article
| is how the USA also pressures European countries into applying
| the same rules. And never for the reason "China has some horrible
| concentration camp problems that we, as a western country
| upholding ideals of freedom, want them to change and we need more
| pressure" but just for their own vague "national security" which
| to my eyes means economic reasons.
| kryptiskt wrote:
| I wish Europe would have the guts to play hardball with China
| as well as the US. Why should we allow a Chinese social network
| when the Chinese market is closed for foreign companies?
| bigbubba wrote:
| Particularly American social media companies. Until the EU
| bans these, I don't think there is much hope for European
| social media companies which actually respect EU laws and
| regulations (American social media companies obviously have
| nothing but contempt for these regulations and will dig in
| their heels for every inch they're dragged.)
|
| Just ban them already. Hobbling these corporations would help
| Americans too, for whom legislative reform seems like a pipe
| dream. Anything that harms these corporations abroad will
| negatively impact their ability to lobby American
| politicians. That might not be much, but it'll be better than
| the status quo.
| Aachen wrote:
| > Why should we allow a Chinese social network when the
| Chinese market is closed for foreign companies?
|
| One reason could be because that better fits our ethics. We
| might not have to lower ourselves to their level to have a
| competitive economy.
|
| I'm not saying we have to be passive but "playing hardball"
| is usually a way to suggest the most extreme measure possible
| and I'm not sure this inequality is that bad. I'm much more
| worried about things like child labor and other issues China
| still has.
| kanox wrote:
| Does the EU even have the legal tools to ban TikTok? It's a
| media company that largely complies with applicable laws,
| banning it because "it's from China" would be a major abuse.
|
| People have raised the same issue regarding Trump banning
| TikTok and the legal basis seems to some national security
| law from the 80s?
|
| I believe governments should not be able to ban TikTok.
| rat9988 wrote:
| There are abusable security laws in every country, no
| worries here.
| PestoDiRucola wrote:
| > China has some horrible concentration camp problems that we,
| as a western country upholding ideals of freedom, want them to
| change and we need more pressure
|
| I mean, it would be ironic if they would give this reasoning,
| considering the fact that the US currently has its own version
| of concentration camps which we, as western countries upholding
| ideals of freedom, should want to change.
| Aachen wrote:
| I'm not actually aware of the USA having concentration camps
| specifically. I know of some human rights issues, though, so
| for the sake of argument I'll assume this is a thing.
| Nevertheless, hypocritical or not, it would be better (from a
| worldsuck perspective) to decrease these issues in China than
| to not do that. And isn't the issue much more widespread in
| China than in the USA?
|
| Looking for "concentration camp USA" on DDG, just to make
| sure we're talking about the same thing, it comes up with
| some site about customs and border patrol stations where
| refugees are imprisoned in for-profit facilities. Is that
| what you are referring to?
| pmlnr wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
| UweSchmidt wrote:
| The national security concerns are of course real and massive;
| imagine what you can do if you can reach every single
| individual of another country with personalized content, and
| collect the most insanely detailed information on each of these
| individuals.
|
| This is the next level, superseding many/most other means of
| power.
| wombatmobile wrote:
| What "insanely detailed" information are you concerned about?
|
| Are you as concerned about this "insanely detailed"
| information being collected by US companies? If not, what
| differentiates your concern when the information goes to
| foreign companies?
| HenryKissinger wrote:
| > Are you as concerned about this "insanely detailed"
| information being collected by US companies?
|
| No.
|
| > If not, what differentiates your concern when the
| information goes to foreign companies?
|
| Because the US govt can be trusted but the Chinese govt
| can't. America is a liberal democracy seeking world peace.
| China is an Orwellian nightmare of a single-party
| authoritarian dictatorship. A world under US dominion (e.g
| the 1990s) would be a paradise. A world under Chinese
| dominion would be a living hell.
|
| I would rather my data be in the hands of the National
| Security Agency than the People's Liberation Army.
|
| I realize that pro-US views aren't popular on HN, but I
| couldn't care less.
|
| For the record, I have a college degree, I'm in my late
| twenties, I was raised in a liberal household, I'm a
| liberal, I have no religious beliefs, and I'm voting for
| Joe Biden.
| wombatmobile wrote:
| How might this work? Could you detail what information
| the People's Liberation Army might collect, and how they
| might use it to enact your fears? Please be as specific
| as you can.
| free_rms wrote:
| A comment from a dude named "HenryKissinger" talking
| about how the US can be trusted on human rights. Golden.
| CapitalistCartr wrote:
| No need to imagine, US companies and the NSA have been doing
| this for years. You've pretty much described the business
| model of major "Social Media" companies.
| Aachen wrote:
| > imagine what you can do if you can reach every single
| individual of another country with personalized content
|
| Are you sure you're not talking about google.com here? Way
| more people across way more ages use that than tiktok and it
| also does tracking for the purpose of personalization.
|
| Your reasoning would result in banning Google products (from
| the Play Store controlling most mobile computers across the
| planet to Gmail and YouTube) from all countries except the
| USA, and to a lesser extent banning Facebook products, Apple
| products, etc. Tiktok barely makes it onto the radar compared
| to those.
| HenryKissinger wrote:
| The HoloNet was a galactic communications grid that was
| developed, used and maintained by the Galactic Republic and later
| by the Galactic Empire. The HoloNet was a near-instantaneous
| communications network commissioned by the Galactic Senate to
| provide a free flow of hologram communication and information
| exchange among member worlds. It vastly sped up galactic
| communications, which had previously depended on more circuitous
| subspace transmissions or relays.
|
| Created thanks to the Galactic Senate's efforts several thousand
| years BBY, the HoloNet quickly expanded throughout the galaxy,
| ending up with at least one emitter/receiver device located on
| virtually every planet of the Galactic Republic. The Holonet was
| operational by at least 3954 BBY.
|
| During the Clone Wars, the Confederacy created the CIS
| Shadowfeed, a network of hyperwave transceivers similar to the
| Republic's HoloNet News channel. During this time, both sides
| used the HoloNet to broadcast propaganda.
| segfaultbuserr wrote:
| It's said that the long distance to North America was a key
| factor that greatly restricted the power of British Imperialism
| in America, and indirectly led to the success of the U.S.
| Revolution. When the orders from the top decision-makers in the
| U.K. mainland took months to arrive, efficiency was low.
|
| I wonder whether the absence of FTL communication in the
| universe could be the ultimate physical guarantee of
| decentralization of political power (which is not possible on
| Earth) and the protection against universe-wide, total imperial
| powers.
| epx wrote:
| You think big :)
| inglor_cz wrote:
| And yet UK kept India, Australia and Canada under its
| control, while losing the thirteen colonies.
|
| It is probably a more complicated story than just "latency of
| the signal".
| mathraki wrote:
| As a European immigrant who came to the US to be an entrepreneur,
| I can tell you there are many reasons for the US leadership so
| far, many of which are still true. My top list:
|
| - biggest unified market. This is HUGE. Not like the EU "unified"
| where you can't even speak the same language, but really unified.
| This means an early idea has big enough of a market to worth
| pursuing, among other things.
|
| - a culture that values technology, innovation, tolerance for
| risk
|
| - world class academic institutions, by far the most of any other
| country
|
| China may challenge the US in terms of being a big unified
| market, for sure. Given the geopolitical situation however most
| likely China's innovation will stay focused on China, and the
| rest of the world will continue to be led by the US for the
| reasons above.
|
| If China was ever to become democratized and continue its growth
| trajectory it could truly challenge the US gobally but that may
| not happen for years or decades.
|
| Overall I think we should welcome more innovation, even if the US
| has to share some of the leadership it had until now. But
| articles that portray some short of US demise or structural
| decline are more journalistic clickbait than anything else.
| cmehdy wrote:
| China is five times the US in population. Given enough time, it
| can just throw people at problems and get there.
| Notwithstanding the fact that the research and academic works
| coming out of China, while still facing issues in quality on
| average, have still been rising in quantity and quality.
|
| When the combined US+EU market is less than half the amount of
| people of your own economy, stumbling upon itself with
| regulations and inner struggles and disagreements, and you are
| the single most important builder of things in their world..
| I'm not sure democracy is a prerequisite to be able to achieve
| domination eventually.
|
| Sure, average quality of life still isn't on par with the EU or
| the US.. but then again, they've taken 600 million people out
| of extreme poverty in the last few decades, they're the single
| biggest current builder of nuclear power plants, they're
| developing their own space agency at a rapid pace, and are
| perfectly fine increasingly making major US businesses bend to
| their will (in tech, in sports, in the industry, and in bending
| America's cultural influence in the world through things like
| Hollywood), and they seriously lock down the innovation and
| profit so that it circulates internally first and foremost.
|
| I'm not saying all these things for the fun of it: I'm from the
| EU and I live in Canada, so I'm both very much wanting the
| world to go towards the models that the EU and Canada are
| trying to achieve (as far as democracies strive to improve
| themselves, ever-so-slowly sometimes), but I'm also pretty
| keenly aware of how small those players actually can be when
| compared to a behemoth with a very long history, a critical
| mass, and willing to make any necessary concessions to
| dominate.
|
| You don't really need 750 million people when you have 1.6
| billion in the first place.
| gerdesj wrote:
| "China is five times the US in population." etc
|
| lol. When do you clock off?
| cmehdy wrote:
| What's your point? I'm a EU citizen with roots in the
| Maghreb. I have no interest in singing praises of an
| economy with which I have major ethical concerns (extended
| to the issues with the Uyghurs, HK and Taiwan, and I have
| dear friends in the latter places), and all my personal
| experiences have had much more to do with countries that
| are very much not into China's attitude (EU, Canada, Japan,
| to name a few).
|
| If you keep trying to play this bullshit game of
| astroturfing warfare, you're going to completely miss the
| real discussions.
|
| So please tell me again, when do I clock off of what?
| ahmedalsudani wrote:
| Can we please stop with those low-effort, snide remarks. It
| says a lot about you that you regurgitate this nonsense.
|
| Reconsider who the "troll" is.
| free_rms wrote:
| If China became democratized tomorrow, overnight, with no
| attendant problems, they'd still speak Chinese and the rest of
| the world still wouldn't know 3 words of it. That's a way
| bigger deal than any (often overstated) difference in freedom
| or innovation.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| > _" This is the first time that Americans have really had to
| deal with their teenagers using a form of mass media that isn't
| created in their country by people who mostly share their values.
| It's from somewhere else. That's compounded by the fact that the
| 'somewhere else' is China, "_
|
| I don't know why I find this so funny, but I just imagine a
| completely terrified American family going "honey, you won't
| believe this, I opened the about page of the app, and it's from
| 'somewhere else'!"
|
| Yeah no shit there's 97% of the world that's not American and
| they can actually make things. Americans are talking about TikTok
| as if they've just encountered their first batch of exotic spices
| travelling along the Silk Road.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| That's a straw-man argument. Most people don't know nor care
| that TikTok is software made in China. The feds seem to care,
| but they're playing politics, and there is not much overlap
| with what Average American cares about.
| ignoramous wrote:
| Also, I don't think Americans somehow magically share common
| values. Most Americans I know would take that as an insult.
| zepto wrote:
| It's a good piece.
|
| It's also worth noting that TikTok is based on AI recommendation,
| like Facebook and YouTube.
|
| It's in many ways a special case (as they also are) of a
| particularly pathological kind of Internet that is only really
| represented by a few companies.
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