[HN Gopher] Show HN: Perfect Pitch Ear Training
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Show HN: Perfect Pitch Ear Training
Author : sergeykish
Score : 90 points
Date : 2020-10-23 19:08 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (sergeykish.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (sergeykish.com)
| junon wrote:
| You inspired me to make an actual Perfect Pitch Test. Not sure
| how scientific it is but I randomized some notes prior to the
| test note being played.
|
| https://codepen.io/junon/details/YzWNxZM
| sergeykish wrote:
| Nice! I am not musician and randomized notes while cool have
| not tricked me.
| qppo wrote:
| How does this train perfect pitch? I have gone through years of
| formal ear training, the closest techniques I've seen to true
| perfect pitch were exercises for audio engineers to recognize
| frequency ranges (iirc, pioneered at University of Michigan a few
| decades ago). But even that doesn't give you perfect pitch, it
| gives you a strong intuition.
|
| In conservatories and other classical schools, they teach
| relative pitch recognition using the same techniques that have
| been used for centuries because pitch is so subjective. When I
| did it, they even used different keys to force the kids with
| perfect pitch and synesthesia (they gravitate towards music
| schools) to learn their intervals.
| sergeykish wrote:
| As I know no one achieved perfect pitch with this tool. I have
| no your background, I've took tool name from the web [1]. Maybe
| it is wrong like serverless is deployed on servers though it
| should be p2p or flat files.
|
| I've thought perfect pitch is a knowledge like "this note is
| G". You describe intuition as something different (or different
| from perfect pitch), maybe we need a special word for it?
|
| [1] https://www.google.com/search?&q=perfect+pitch+training
| supz_k wrote:
| For anyone who might not know what perfect pitch is: Absolute
| pitch (AP), often called perfect pitch, is a rare ability of a
| person to identify or re-create a given musical note without the
| benefit of a reference tone. - Wikipedia
|
| Most people, even musicians, don't know that this talent exists.
| When I was in high school, there was someone who has this skill.
| He had started music when he was a very little. Most perfect
| pitch persons starts their music in their early ages. This person
| in my school "senses" pitches (I think it's similar to how we see
| colors.)
|
| THERE'S NO KNOWN CASES OF ANY ADULT DEVELOPING PERFECT PITCH.
| There's a number of studies saying it cannot be developed as an
| adult.
|
| However, I'm doing research for a few months and trying to
| develop perfect pitch myself (I have a fine relative pitch). None
| has worked for now. I strongly believe there must be a way for
| adults to develop this.
|
| My thoughts on this app: It may help to improve something called
| "tone identification", but that instinct of having perfect pitch
| is completely different.
|
| By the way, anyone here have perfect pitch (possibility is
| 1/10000)?
|
| (For any one interested, search Youtube for perfect pitch.
| There's a lot of fascinating stories)
| FalconSensei wrote:
| For what I've seen, all apps/methods for 'developing perfect
| pitch' would either not work on adults, or are not actually
| perfect/absolute pitch.
| y2bd wrote:
| Count me in as someone who didn't know this existed/that I had
| it until someone else pointed it out for me. I started music in
| middle school and got frustrated with a friend who couldn't
| play back a melody from a video game we both liked even though
| I could (he was much better at violin so I wanted to hear him
| play it, haha).
|
| Thankfully, he knew what perfect pitch was and after figuring
| out the disconnect, explained it to me. I honestly thought he
| was lying until I asked other folks in the class and found out
| they couldn't identify the notes by ear either. I just assumed
| it was something I learned to do as a part of the class
| instruction.
|
| I wouldn't say I have any attached feelings/synesthesia to
| particular notes besides their western names.
| supz_k wrote:
| That's awesome. Did you have any musical training when you
| were little? (below 7 years)
| y2bd wrote:
| I think I played recorder for like two months around 8
| years old, but no education beyond that. Didn't have a
| musical family either. My younger siblings all picked up
| instruments during their schooling as well and I don't
| believe any of them have perfect pitch.
| kayson wrote:
| I realize it defeats the purpose, but if you guess the correct
| answer once you can keep clicking the same answer to make the
| counter go up
| ChrisSD wrote:
| If the same instrument is played one after the other I can tell
| if it's higher or lower in tone. Otherwise I'm pretty useless.
| I'm starting to thing I'm almost tone deaf.
|
| That would explain my singing.
| dang wrote:
| HN did tone deafness the other day:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24852401. From one extreme
| to the other.
| sergeykish wrote:
| That's why I've posted my tool. It is private but looking at
| the interest on Tone-Deafness Test why not to share it?
| ksherlock wrote:
| Doesn't work on Safari. tried it on chrome and clicking on the
| correct answer has a tendency to not do anything.
| sergeykish wrote:
| Click on correct answer increases the counter. My routine
|
| 1. Ctrl-t to hear the sound
|
| 2. Ctrl-* to give answer
|
| 3. Wrong if hear sound, try again (2)
|
| 4. Correct if no sound, take next sound (1)
|
| Unfortunately can't check on Safari yet, any errors in console?
| raidicy wrote:
| I was under the notion that perfect pitch cannot be obtained
| after a certain age.
| sergeykish wrote:
| I doubt it. I have G and C harmonicas, they are very different.
| When playing harmonica ears help to find holes.
|
| I've been practicing for two weeks, currently on G3, C4, G4,
| C5, mostly confident (100 correct answers) though sometimes it
| tricks me.
| necubi wrote:
| You're talking about relative pitch, not perfect (absolute)
| pitch. Any competent musician will have excellent relative
| pitch, which is the ability to recognize intervals between
| pitches. This is necessary for transcription, learning music
| by ear, jamming, etc.
|
| Perfect pitch means that, if someone plays a sine wave with
| no context, you can tell what pitch it is.
| davio wrote:
| We had a guy in our college band with perfect relative and
| absolute pitch. One time we walked out of the dorms and the
| AC was squealing on top the building across the street.
|
| "Hey Dave, what note is that?" "Do you really want to
| know?" heads nod "It's a G"
|
| One of the other tales was someone with true perfect pitch
| could tell the difference between A at 440 vs 441 hz.
| dekhn wrote:
| I've seen this. When I was in grad school I was playing
| with assembly language to click a speaker in a timed
| loop, such that it would generate A440.
|
| I played it to my coworker who was working in my lab, and
| he said: "I'm a singer and I have perfect pitch. THat
| isn't A440, it's slightly low. Probably one hertz."
|
| I checked my code and indeed, I had miscomputed the
| timer, it was slightly longer than it should have been.
| Fixed the code and he confirmed it sounded better, but
| not absolutely perfect.
| filmor wrote:
| AC squealing (and a lot of other noises that are somehow
| synchronous to the grid frequency) would be a slightly
| off G outside of North America (slightly to high, G is
| ~49 Hz and the grid frequency almost everywhere is 50
| Hz), no need for perfect pitch to guess that.
|
| In North America (60 Hz grid frequency), I'm not quite
| sure whether one would recognise it as a A# (58.3 Hz) or
| a B (61.8 Hz).
| sergeykish wrote:
| I know the difference and that's what I am striving for. So
| far several weeks, an hour a day, it is quite hard, 700
| answers on answer / 5s rate.
| yorwba wrote:
| > Perfect pitch means that, if someone plays a sine wave
| with no context, you can tell what pitch it is.
|
| What bothers me about that definition is that it doesn't
| specify accuracy. If I play a sine wave at 498.753 Hz, how
| many of those decimal places will someone with perfect
| pitch get correct? Since classical music is based on
| discrete notes with intervals of at least a semitone, maybe
| an error of less than half a semitone is acceptable,
| because that's enough to sort a note into the correct
| bucket? But then what's the average error for people who
| don't have perfect pitch?
| [deleted]
| FalconSensei wrote:
| I think it's like: at which point it's a sharp A or a
| flat A#? Because when we talk about perfect pitch, is in
| a musical context, in the sense that a person can tell
| the note that would classify that wave, even without
| knowing how many Hz it is
| getpost wrote:
| I was intrigued by this paper. Haven't tried it though.
|
| Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pitch
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3848041/
|
| Absolute pitch, the ability to identify or produce the pitch of
| a sound without a reference point, has a critical period, i.e.,
| it can only be acquired early in life. However, research has
| shown that histone-deacetylase inhibitors (HDAC inhibitors)
| enable adult mice to establish perceptual preferences that are
| otherwise impossible to acquire after youth. In humans, we
| found that adult men who took valproate (VPA) (a HDAC
| inhibitor) learned to identify pitch significantly better than
| those taking placebo--evidence that VPA facilitated critical-
| period learning in the adult human brain. Importantly, this
| result was not due to a general change in cognitive function,
| but rather a specific effect on a sensory task associated with
| a critical-period.
| necubi wrote:
| I think it's not so cut-and-dry. As a violinist, I can
| recognize absolute violin pitches, but can't do so with other
| instruments. This is definitely a learned skill; presumably
| there's something about the timbre of the different pitches
| that my brain has memorized after so many years of playing.
|
| However someone with "true" perfect pitch is able to detect
| pitches across instruments (or even a sine wave) and can
| distinguish minute differences in pitch; for example, someone
| with perfect pitch can tell that an instrument has been tuned
| to A415 (a typical tuning for Baroque music) instead of the
| standard A440.
| thewebcount wrote:
| Similar thing here. I'm a pianist, and while I don't have
| perfect pitch, there are certain piano chords that I can pick
| out and definitively say, "That's an F major, root position,
| with the root just over middle C". But other chords or even
| individual notes - I'm not able to distinguish them in that
| way.
| Nimitz14 wrote:
| I do not understand how to use this... how is this supposed to
| train something when I'm selecting and can see the note played?
| sergeykish wrote:
| Thank you, I've updated instructions.
|
| Click on "Test" to selects new sound and play it. Click buttons
| for answer, it plays sound if answer is wrong. I use it with
| eyes closed to concentrate on sound. Guess visual indication
| would be a good start. I've changed it so it marks wrong button
| with color until next "Test".
|
| The idea is not to guess but to start with one sound, make it
| familiar, add another, etc.
| grizmaldi wrote:
| Rick Beato's take on adults not being able to develop perfect
| pitch - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=816VLQNdPMM
|
| I must say though, watching videos of his kid demonstrate perfect
| pitch is quite astounding!
| Dowwie wrote:
| Rick Beato explains on his YouTube that a child can learn pitch
| perfection but it must be trained before 10 years of age
|
| https://youtu.be/816VLQNdPMM
| RunawayGalaxy wrote:
| Rick Beato has some great videos on this subject
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXivZlPu0ms
| pier25 wrote:
| Been making music on and off for the past 20 years. Over the
| years, I've tried many ear training apps but there was little
| progress after hours of frustration.
|
| A couple of months ago I found a very different method. The idea
| is is to internalize pitch by singing. For example, you play a
| triad on the piano and then sing the 3 notes individually. Or you
| train yourself to sing an interval. Say you're working on fifths.
| You play a C in the piano and then sing G, then play D and sing
| A, etc. I saw results within the first hour.
|
| If anyone is interested I can try to find the video where I got
| this from.
|
| Another method I can recommend is transcribing music by ear.
| You'll be amazed how quickly you will be able to find notes and
| then chords once you get more experience.
| powersnail wrote:
| That's exactly how I was trained.
|
| The first step is always sight-singing. The teacher gave me a
| drone note (for example an A4), and I sang according to a sheet
| music. Not necessarily a triad, though.
|
| Then, it's the other way around, where the teacher played on a
| piano, and I tried to figure out the note.
| kelnos wrote:
| > _The first step is always sight-singing. The teacher gave
| me a drone note (for example an A4), and I sang according to
| a sheet music._
|
| That's a demonstration of relative pitch, not
| absolute/perfect pitch.
|
| > _the teacher played on a piano, and I tried to figure out
| the note._
|
| It makes sense that you'd be able to retain it for a little
| bit, but could you, say, walk into your lesson, cold from the
| prior week, and immediately the teacher hits a note, and you
| identify it, without practicing first?
| supz_k wrote:
| This is RELATIVE pitch, which anyone can develop. Perfect pitch
| is kind of a mystery. (However, there are some known dogs and
| frogs with perfect pitch)
| coffeemaniac wrote:
| That's not true, by learning what it feels like to sing
| different notes it's absolutely possible to "learn" perfect
| pitch. There are some individuals of course who are born with
| a very acute sensitivity from a very young age (which is
| spooky) but there are also people who learn it later.
|
| If you can imagine learning to recognize and accurately sing
| just one particular note (say, middle C). Then if you develop
| amazing "relative" pitch it's basically the same thing.
| Training more still will enable you to hear very subtle
| differences in tuning, but it has to be a standard part of
| your training.
| sergeykish wrote:
| Yes, please. Are not interval training and perfect pitch
| different things?
|
| I'm mostly concentrating on confidence and quantity -- one test
| / 5s, running hundreds of tests, trying to discard intervals
| and feel chroma.
| memset wrote:
| Singing - perhaps you know this - is standard in ear training
| courses. We are required to sing intervals, sing Bach chorales,
| and sing chords in all inversions and qualities, and sing their
| resolutions. At advanced levels we are required to sing atonal
| passages.
|
| Then there is the inverse - melodic dictation. Not just
| identifying intervals, but chords, their qualities, and
| inversions.
|
| The goal of these is to develop relative pitch, as it is
| assumed that adults would generally not be able to acquire
| perfect pitch.
| ggrrhh_ta wrote:
| I am interested. I put around 30 focused minutes to distinguish
| E5 and have been able to endure that memory both to recognize
| it in the piano and to sing it since.
| Zarathu wrote:
| B-natural is missing.
| sergeykish wrote:
| Thank you! Fixed.
| junon wrote:
| Yeah lol. A# is not the same thing as B. It's the same as Bb
| though.
|
| Also, how do you answer sharps or flats? It just has the
| natural notes as answers.
| sergeykish wrote:
| I will add buttons, which accesscodes would you recommend?
| kayson wrote:
| ctrl shift for # and ctrl alt for b?
| sergeykish wrote:
| I've thought of separate names "A z B C u D v E F w G"
| (from the end of the alphabet). Your approach looks more
| practical, have to ditch accesskey though.
| biggieshellz wrote:
| Semi-pro musician for 20+ years here. You can't teach this. My
| mom has perfect pitch, and I do not. I can play a record and move
| the pitch knob to make it play a bit fast, and it will bother her
| enough to get up off the couch and change it back. No matter how
| much ear training I do, that will never be the case with me.
|
| I have very good relative pitch, and a highly trained ear, and
| that you _can_ teach. If you play me C, I can tell you what the
| other notes are based on that, and my internal reference for what
| C is persists for quite a while. If you play me a song, I can
| hear what the chords are -- the color (major, minor, dominant,
| diminished, etc.) and the degree of the scale. But that is all
| relative to itself. If I hear the same song played in C, and then
| in Db, the two of them will hit me emotionally the same. Whereas
| for someone with perfect pitch, I understand it can be different.
| And for someone with perfect pitch and synesthesia, I understand
| it can be different still -- notes and keys are perceived as
| colors. And while I can imagine what that might be like, there 's
| no way for me to train myself to _be_ that.
| nojs wrote:
| I have perfect pitch. For me it's much easier to identify tones
| on piano (which I play) than other instruments or sine waves.
| So I feel like there is some part of it that's "tuneable".
| alfiedotwtf wrote:
| Perfect pitch here too...
|
| Curious if this happens to others - you'll hear a noise (e.g
| a glass hitting something, an object falling to the ground
| etc) that makes a single tone, and a song immediately starts
| playing in your head because it starts with that same tone?
|
| My stand up desk at an old job was the starting pitch to
| Beyonce's Crazy in Love
| StavrosK wrote:
| Not perfect pitch, but yeah, this does happen to me. I'll
| hear a sound and start singing the rest of the song the
| sound reminds me of, and everyone will look at me oddly.
| toolslive wrote:
| Not perfect pitch, but I play a fretless instrument. I
| learned to map specific intervals to songs.
| minor 2nd : Jaws major 2nd : Frere Jacques
| ...
|
| Now every time I hear an interval these things enter my
| brain.
| toolslive wrote:
| but the pitches on the piano are not perfect, aren't they ?
| It uses equal temperament iso just temperament. So shouldn't
| a piano sound out of key to you ?
| core-questions wrote:
| That's not what perfect pitch means, per se. It should work
| with any tonal system.
| pvarangot wrote:
| That's fairly common and the simplest explanation I know
| about is that you can "memorize" a sound if you train for it
| and then when you hear it you recall the memory without going
| through the whole "pipeline" for understanding what it is.
| Your memory or "cache" for what C is indexes with the
| specific harmonics that make the timbre of a piano. On
| another instrument it's a different sound, the main harmonic
| is the same one but the timbre is so different that you need
| to go through the "let's use perfect pitch for this" part of
| your brain.
|
| It's the same thing mechanics use to identify engine sounds
| quickly or why some people can tell who's walking on a
| hallway because of how the steps sound. Repeated exposition
| to a stimulus that then gets associated with something etches
| a memory.
|
| This not only happens with perfect pitch. To for example know
| how to tell a major third from a minor third on all keys you
| can "memorize" all the sounds and know which one they are. I
| think my brain kinda did that and now I sometimes get
| confused with M3 and P5 because of how "similar" they sound
| even though you can like totally fit another tone comfortable
| between the root and the fifth and the root and the third
| don't have enough air for that.
| subroutine wrote:
| My partner did her dissertation on exactly this.
|
| If you are interested, see Chapter 3:
|
| https://escholarship.org/uc/item/0rp5w2rd
| dorkwood wrote:
| This just makes me want to learn it even more.
| sergeykish wrote:
| I've heard a story of adult acquiring perfect pitch [1]. He
| made a tool for Win32 platform years ago [2].
|
| I play (hobby) harmonica and I feel them differently. I like
| dark tone of G (blues in D), bright and someone neutral tone of
| C, I have A and don't play it much. How can one explain this?
|
| Do you experience Doppler effect on ski elevator? It was
| devastating. Can it be that harmonica trains ears to find a
| hole and bend notes? But any fretles instrument should have
| same requirement (violin).
|
| Some people claim adults can't learn languages, while in
| reality we lack not neuron plasticity but time, patience,
| culture. Maybe skill learned by adult and child is different
| but serves same function. It is fine by me to learn "perfect
| ear equivalent". At least I can train myself and play with a
| kid, maybe he would acquire this skill in full potential.
|
| [1] http://www.aruffo.com/eartraining/
|
| [2] http://www.aruffo.com/eartraining/software/
| lhorie wrote:
| I'm curious how perfect pitch works in terms of temperaments
| and tunings standards. For example, do they get bothered by
| regular guitar over microtonal ones? (those weird guitars w/
| extra mini-frets)[1]
|
| I'm really fascinated by our ability to perceive relative pitch
| even without training. See, for example, how "detuning" by a
| few cents in lo-fi hip hop provides a very distinct feel to the
| genre, compared to playing the same tune in standard equal
| temperament tuning.
|
| [1] https://www.thatericalper.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2015/06/max...
| mhh__ wrote:
| Jacob Collier can be accurate to a few cents, microtonal or
| not (I assume he thinks in terms of offset to the nearest ET
| pitch)
| aczerepinski wrote:
| I agree, you can't learn this after childhood. As somebody who
| went to music school for 10 years I've been around literally
| thousands of musicians and have never once met somebody who
| developed perfect pitch as an adult.
|
| On the other hand, if you do have perfect pitch, you can lose
| it over time! I've had perfect pitch all my life, and now that
| I'm going on 40 I surprise myself by sometimes hearing a song a
| half-step off (i.e. I'll assume a song is in F but it's really
| in E). This has never happened to me until the past few years.
| Not sure how much is due to my ears aging, and how much due to
| I'm not a practicing musician anymore.
| SeanLuke wrote:
| I'm going sharp as well (this started in my 40s). My
| understanding is that this is pretty common for people with
| perfect pitch. And it is frustrating!
| maxov wrote:
| I agree, the scientific consensus appears to be that absolute
| pitch cannot be developed after a certain age, and that this
| age is related to the 'prime' language acquisition ages. Tonal
| language speakers (e.g. Mandarin) have absolute pitch with
| higher frequency, possibly because their ears have needed to
| train to distinguish tones in this critical period.
|
| As someone with absolute pitch, I should say I have not found
| it musically useful, and I would hesitate recommending people
| train for it even if it was possible. When I was learning to
| play jazz, it was actually a major crutch for me. For jazz
| especially, the modes, chords, progressions, and relationships
| between tones are really important and are what determines the
| 'color' of what you're playing. Harmony in general is
| determined by the relationships between tones, not the absolute
| tones themselves (mostly - there are of course differences in
| sound playing three octaves up or down), and an ear for
| absolute pitch doesn't help much there at all.
|
| I could use absolute pitch to identify chords and modes, but it
| didn't help me 'think' about and play within them the way
| relative pitch does. A good ear for relative pitch, and an
| understanding of harmony go much farther.
| toolslive wrote:
| There are several recorded cases of people acquiring perfect
| pitch late in life as a result of getting _tinnitus_. So what
| they do is learn the frequency of their 'ring' and map
| everything from there. I guess some people would call that
| cheating.
| kelnos wrote:
| > _Tonal language speakers (e.g. Mandarin) have absolute
| pitch with higher frequency_
|
| This is interesting, because a tonal language like Mandarin
| does not care about absolute pitch; it's all relative. For
| example, 1st tone is a (usually higher) flat tone. But it
| doesn't matter what pitch you use. 2nd tone is a rising tone,
| but it doesn't matter what pitch you start at or end at; it
| just matters that the two pitches differ enough that your
| listener can tell that there was a change, and that it was
| rising.
|
| I wonder why that sort of thing _also_ leads to a higher
| prevalence of absolute pitch.
| akeck wrote:
| A friend of mine has a teenager who developed perfect pitch
| in middle school. Their first language is English, but they
| are learning Mandarin very rapidly (along with 2-3 other
| Chinese dialects).
| Hoasi wrote:
| > As someone with absolute pitch, I should say I have not
| found it musically useful
|
| True. Perfect pitch can indeed prevent you from appreciating
| some kinds of music that become too predictable, too fast.
| gabereiser wrote:
| Or purposefully recorded at 432hz instead of 440hz... :(
| viraptor wrote:
| Considering 432hz is not really wrong, just different,
| does it bother you when listening? Is it the same with
| microtonal music? Or performances in baroque pitch?
| kazinator wrote:
| I don't have perfect pitch, but I have pitch memory. I can
| recall the sound of the A string of a guitar being plucked,
| then hum the note which matches what I "hear" in my head, whip
| out tuner app and see that I'm indeed at 110 Hz.
| wdfx wrote:
| I mostly agree with all the above, but as a guitarist/singer*
| there is distinctly something about transposing songs - it is
| clearly obvious that most songs work best in their original
| keys and quite a number of times transposition completely
| changes how a song sounds, to the point where some songs when
| transposed simply do not work at all.
|
| If music was all about relative intervals, surely this wouldn't
| be an issue?
|
| * Not the world's best singer, hence my observations around
| transposition, as I try to bend songs I like into a range I can
| just about manage.
| powersnail wrote:
| That's because you are using a guitar, which is not perfectly
| in tune no matter how you tune it.
|
| For an equal temperament instrument (like a midi keyboard),
| transcription would be seamless.
|
| For a fretless instrument, transcription can be made
| seamless, if the player is good at intonation.
|
| However, the timbre of the instrument can still be a little
| different for each key (e.g. open strings vs fingered notes),
| but that's a nuance on instrument rather than transcription
| per se.
| jdashg wrote:
| Sound recording, reproduction, and even instrument
| resonance are usually not a perfectly flat EQ also, so
| transposing up or down can hit different frequency-
| dependent distortions.
| sergeykish wrote:
| Transposing with a capo should preserve it exactly.
| necubi wrote:
| At least on violin the different strings have slightly
| different timbres, as do different fingerings. Playing a G4
| as 3rd finger on the D string will not sound the same as
| playing it in third position on the G string even with very
| precise intonation.
| amelius wrote:
| > My mom has perfect pitch, and I do not. I can play a record
| and move the pitch knob to make it play a bit fast, and it will
| bother her enough to get up off the couch and change it back.
|
| This makes me wonder why someone would _want_ to have perfect
| pitch.
| kelnos wrote:
| Right. It's perhaps useful if you're a musician (though I'd
| argue having relative pitch is much more useful), but
| otherwise it just feels like an annoyance that will reduce
| your enjoyment of many everyday musical things.
| jdnier wrote:
| This is such a good explanation, and similar to my experience.
| You've hit all the points that I've tried to explain to
| musician friends. Some people have a very different experience.
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