[HN Gopher] A Guy Walks into an Apple Store
___________________________________________________________________
A Guy Walks into an Apple Store
Author : tobr
Score : 153 points
Date : 2020-10-27 20:22 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (birchtree.me)
(TXT) w3m dump (birchtree.me)
| Nightshaxx wrote:
| The point isn't that nobody will have reduced packaging, the
| point is some people have reduced packaging. I'm not saying it's
| not a way for Apple to get PR points + save some money (that's
| exactly what it is). Your argument would mean it's pointless to
| buy a BMW electric car because they sell other cars that aren't.
| At Apple's scale, the reduction in packaging for a large chunk of
| consumers might acctually do something for the environment (and
| Tim Cook's pockets).
| Polylactic_acid wrote:
| The same argument was made against banning single use plastic
| bags in supermarkets in Australia. People said that everyone
| would just continue to buy them and nothing will change. Turns
| out that most people did not keep buying them but instead took
| their old ones back to the store to reuse. Some people still
| buy them but overall there was a huge reduction.
|
| When you give someone something for free they will take that
| option every time, charge just 15c for the bag and people will
| decide that they will bring back their old bags because its a
| small savings for almost no effort.
|
| I also never see stray plastic bags floating around the street
| like I used to.
| usaphp wrote:
| I have 3 iphones in my household that I change every 2 years or
| so. Before they removed the charging brick - I would end up with
| 3 charging bricks laying around my house. Now I can purchase 1
| charging brick and use it to charge all of my phones. Also
| nothing prevents me from using my older charging cable with my
| older brick as well, so I am not sure why people can't understand
| that it is in fact reducing e-waste compared to if they shipped
| charging bricks with every iphone.
| jlengrand wrote:
| It's funny, because I bought my first apple watch last month. The
| website mentioned -> sustainability efforts, no cable. Ok, I
| bought a cable and a watch.
|
| Sat with my useless cable home for 4 days. Cable delivered after
| 3 days, watch after 5 weeks.
|
| Watch came with a cable.
|
| No matter how happy I am with my watch, I really feel like they
| were making fun of me. . .
| jtsiskin wrote:
| Everything in my life is now using USB-C charging, except for my
| iPhone.
|
| Is there a technical reason why Apple prefers their lightning
| cable over USB-C, or is it purely business related?
| Invictus0 wrote:
| On the other hand, I still don't own a single USB-C device or
| cable and I just bought the 2020 iPhone SE.
| RandallBrown wrote:
| I'm guessing a big part of it is the MASSIVE accessory
| ecosystem that's built around the iPhone.
|
| People have docks, cases, chargers, cables, etc. that all work
| with Lightning.
|
| I think also that USB-C is a more complicated protocol. Not all
| USB-C cables and ports are created equal and it could be a
| massive headache for them to deal with all the
| incompatibilities that might arise.
| firecall wrote:
| Very well said!
| samatman wrote:
| Literally every one of the existing options still works.
|
| Ok with charging at 5w? Plug your lightning-to-A cable into the
| little tiny cube charger they've been selling since forever.
|
| Already have a faster USB charger? It works.
|
| Ok with Qi at 7W? Works
|
| Oh, you want the new shiny MagSafe puck system?
|
| Great. Buy it.
|
| This analysis completely ignores that the new shiny system is
| supposed to be a _better experience_. It 's completely additive
| to what we have now, nothing has been taken away: except the
| included charger and earphones, neither of which I would want to
| have.
|
| I expect MagSafe will be quite popular. But that's because it's
| cool, not because anything about the new generation of phones
| compels users to buy it.
| Polylactic_acid wrote:
| Also the fact that the described situation may occur once, but
| then forever after you will have both usb c and a bricks so you
| will be set for whatever future devices you get rather than
| being given a brick every single time while most go unused.
| m463 wrote:
| Qi is fine. You can get a dock/pad with cable and charger
| sometimes for less than the cost of a lightning cable.
|
| Personally I have an anker dock and I stopped buying any apple
| accessories.
| alistairSH wrote:
| The cable is a wear item. By the time I'm ready to swap phones
| (3 years or so), I'm also ready for a new cable.
|
| If I bought an iPhone 12 tomorrow, I would, at minimum, also
| have to buy another cable, because the one Apple included
| doesn't work with my existing charger. Not the end of the
| world, but still annoying.
| notJim wrote:
| I think you may be an outlier in owning only one lightning
| cable. I just looked in my desk drawer and counted 5, and I
| can think of 3 more in other areas of my house and car.
| alistairSH wrote:
| I own more than 1, but they all get used regularly. There's
| one on my nightstand, one in my car, and one in the office.
| I can swap them around, but that doesn't solve the problem
| - at the time I'm ready to buy a new phone, one of them is
| worn out.
| Zak wrote:
| I'm disappointed Apple hasn't dropped Lightning and just made
| all their devices use standard USB-C. I could see their
| motivation for developing their own connector when everyone
| else was using micro-B, which has a number of disadvantages,
| but now USB-C is used to power virtually every other phone and
| tablet, and many laptops including Apple's own.
| samatman wrote:
| I'm indifferent.
|
| On the one hand, yeah, USB-C works great, and everything else
| I own takes it. On the other hand, Lightning also works
| great, USB-C isn't an improvement on the merits, and iPhone
| users have a bunch of accessories for it. Like in my car, I
| have a 12v charger with one USB-A port and a built-in
| Lightning cable, and I'd have to either junk it or just
| ignore the built in cable if they went USB-C.
|
| I'm pretty sure the writing is on the wall with MagSafe:
| Apple intends to ditch the port entirely. That makes me
| nervous, frankly, and there are people out there who use an
| SD card reader who would be furious.
|
| But I think that future is more likely than one in which
| Apple ditches the Lightning port for USB-C. We'll see.
| jbombadil wrote:
| My concern with them removing the port is what what would
| happen to everyone whose car's entertainment unit supports
| CarPlay but not wireless CarPlay?
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I've always seen it as a usb cable that you can swap out
| with any other usb cable.
| bobbylarrybobby wrote:
| Time to buy a new car ;)
| saurik wrote:
| I guess they either buy a new car or they buy a dongle
| they plug into their car as a wireless bridge (same as
| every change Apple makes ;P).
| dbspin wrote:
| USB-C depending on implementation has enormously greater
| throughput (USB 3.1 gen 2 is 10Gbps) than lightning
| (480Mbps/60MBps). This might not be relevant for your
| needs, but increasingly Apple are marketing the iPhone as a
| 'pro' device, specifically for media creation. And it is
| finding a home in videography and event photography and
| streaming for example (I work in this area). Given this,
| the speed available through wifi and lightning are both
| enormous constraints on the usefulness of the phone
| professionally. So this is actually a really big issue for
| a segment of apples audience - perhaps a small segment, but
| specifically the segment whose imprimatur continues to lend
| apple devices their desirability.
| tiernano wrote:
| Hold on there sparky... If they did that, they would loose
| money on both the new chargers they sell people, plus every
| other adapter seller would need to change products, and then
| buying a charger that works with both iPhone and Android on
| one cable!?! Sacrilege! /s
| petre wrote:
| USB-C is great but the Lightning connector is still better
| designed. Oh and you can downvote me all you want, I'm an
| electrical engineer, not an Apple fanboy. Don't like the
| phone. Anyway, they should at least include a cable.
| fastball wrote:
| Disagree. I have had frequent issues with lint and other
| detritus collecting in Lightning ports, causing the device
| to no longer be able to charge until it is cleaned out. I
| haven't had that with USB-C (or any other type of port for
| that matter).
|
| Also USB-C can charge my computer. Lightning cannot.
|
| The entire reason I want something like USB-C is so that I
| can do everything with one cable. Lightning is not up to
| the task.
| petre wrote:
| Well, with USB-C you've got two holes that can fill up
| with junk, not just one. The Lightning port is at least
| easy to clean with common household items: toothpick and
| ear swabs.
| throwanem wrote:
| I'd take the power brick out of the box and introduce the new
| wireless charging stuff first, too. Let people finish yelling
| about that first, _then_ set off the inevitable rehash of the
| "but none of my dock connector accessories will work with my
| new phone! Apple just wants more money argh argh argh"
| fussing.
| fastball wrote:
| The theory I've heard is that they're planning to remove the
| charge port entirely in the iPhone 13, and therefore it would
| be a massive engineering waste to make only a single
| generation of phones with USB-C.
|
| But yeah, I really wanted USB-C. Bought the phone anyway
| though.
| e40 wrote:
| Given the amount of discussion USB-C gets here on HN, maybe
| it's not such a clear decision?
|
| I think the biggest risk in USB-C, for me, it makes me really
| nervous when I buy a cable, and even then I'm not 100%
| confident. When I buy a lightning cable, I have no fears. And
| they're not even more expensive anymore. Some of those USB-C
| cables are just as expensive.
| chias wrote:
| Looks like we've hugged it to death.
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20201027202829/https://birchtree...
| joduplessis wrote:
| I'm always surprised how much petty bitching people do about
| Apple.
| m3kw9 wrote:
| Just get a usbc to usba adaptor. Of course if you want top of the
| line stuff, pay more. If they include it, the price goes up but
| of course you don't complaint because you don't notice it every
| year you brought an iPhone.
| ertemplin wrote:
| People are forgetting that you usually have to return your
| accessories (charger brick and cable) when you trade-in an old
| iPhone. So it's not like people have that many chargers laying
| around.
| filoleg wrote:
| No, you don't.
|
| I did their upgrade program trade-in for the past 2 years, not
| once did they ask to include the charger. The box instructions
| (in which you give them back your old phone) explicitly mention
| what needs to be included, and the charger (or any other
| accessories) is not there.
|
| Technically you might not count it as a trade-in, but it is
| effectively the same procedure. And I had plenty of friends who
| did trade-in not that long ago, they weren't asked to return
| the charger either.
| fetus8 wrote:
| Even if you use the iPhone Upgrade Program, you get to keep
| your old accessories.
| bluedino wrote:
| I've never done that. I just reset and unlock my phone and hand
| it over
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > you usually have to return your accessories (charger brick
| and cable) when you trade-in an old iPhone
|
| I've never ever done this and I've traded in every single
| iPhone I've ever owned. You just reset it, hand it over out of
| your pocket, and they don't even ask any questions.
| ogre_codes wrote:
| I've spent the past couple years acquiring USB-C chargers for my
| MacBook and my iPad so it really doesn't play out in my
| household. While I don't have the "Puck" style charger, I do have
| a 29w USB-C charger I've used for fast charging my iPad for some
| time.
|
| While I agree with this guys article on a large part, I suspect
| the amount of extra waste here is over-stated. There will be fair
| number of people (like me) who saw the USB-C writing on the wall
| years ago. There are also a fair number of people who will just
| use the same cable they use on their current phone.
|
| I do think they should have either shipped a USB-A cable in the
| box since it's still the norm. Or at better, they should have
| switched to a USB-C brick a couple years ago then people would
| have them around.
| Bud wrote:
| Here's what the article claims:
|
| "Now tell me, do you have Apple's 20W USB-C charging brick to use
| with this? It doesn't come with a charging brick either, and to
| get the advertised speeds then you need to use that brick.
| Literally no other charging bricks will get that speed."
|
| Here's what's actually true:
|
| Any USB-C charger with a port on it capable of 20W or higher
| (including all extant USB-C Mac chargers and all extant USB-C PC
| chargers) will drive MagSafe at full power, and the author
| probably knew this, but it's inconvenient to acknowledge it. Such
| chargers are extremely common.
| artemonster wrote:
| Not sure whether you've tested your claims, I've heard people
| complaining (loudly!) that their anker chargers and powerbanks
| with PD (and rated with needed wattage) are not working,
| because Apple opted for some really strange voltage profile
| negotiation, that only small portion of the existing chargers
| support.
| Xavdidtheshadow wrote:
| Actually, per this article [1] that may not be the case.
| Copying a comment from reddit:
|
| > PD has certain charging 'profiles'.
|
| > For example Apples 30W USB-C charger can work at:
|
| > 15 watts (5 volts @ 3 amps), 27 watts (9 volts @ 3 amps), 30
| watts (15 volts @ 2 amps), and 30 watts (20 volts @ 1.5 amps)
|
| > The MagSafe puck supports none of those for some reason. So
| it drops down to ~5W which is a safe backup amount for most
| devices.
|
| > The new 20W charger appears to have a new profile it supports
| for the full 20W, which so far seems to be unique to that
| charger + MagSafe combo. It's... messy.
|
| [1]:
| https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/27/magsafe-15w-fast-...
| Bud wrote:
| Thank you for the correction!
| Kirby64 wrote:
| Would be interesting to see what PD profile it's negotiating
| here that is different. I wouldn't be surprised if Anker et
| al. come out with MagSafe 15W compatible chargers shortly.
| Seems like it might be a 9V 1.8A profile or something silly?
|
| I'm surprised some of these tech YouTubers that do this stuff
| don't have a proper USB-PD profile analyzer. Something like
| this could find all the secrets necessary for Anker to
| recreate a functional brick:
| https://www.totalphase.com/products/usb-power-delivery-
| analy...
| fetus8 wrote:
| https://www.amazon.com/stores/page/62D963CD-BE12-41FB-A840-B...
|
| Anker has about a ton of these, including 20W or higher ones,
| under $20.
| paxys wrote:
| I don't think even the most hardcore Apple superfans are buying
| the "reducing waste" argument. They have the right to make their
| products more expensive, and that's fine. People are going to
| keep buying them regardless.
| the_other wrote:
| I'm fairly in the fan camp. It seems like both an eco play and
| a profit play. I don't care about the latter. In fact, I should
| probably support it because for DECADES businesses have been
| refusing to do the necessary eco work because it was too
| costly. Apple have found a way to tick both the boxes. I should
| buy shares.
| radimm wrote:
| Depends how you look at it. If I consider the amount of
| cables/charges/earpods we have as family this is logical move.
| We don't upgrade all the devices every year but it still adds
| up. Most of them are just throwaway.
| paxys wrote:
| While people do have a million chargers lying around from
| over the years, almost none of them will work with the new
| iPhone. The average Apple enthusiast will still end up buying
| one or more separately.
| Polylactic_acid wrote:
| Every single brick I have had on an android phone for the
| last 10 years work on the iphone. The last 5 years of
| phones my family has got have come with usb C bricks too.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| What?
|
| Any charger outputting to a Lightning cable still works.
| It's just not the optimal/fastest experience.
| bobbylarrybobby wrote:
| The phone doesn't care about the brick. It only cares about
| one end of the cable. All your old USB-A <-> lightning
| cables still work with their USB-A bricks.
| Bud wrote:
| They didn't make the products more expensive, though. The
| iPhone 12 Pro series got cheaper (for the equivalent storage).
| They also made the charger and cable in question cheaper, for
| the small minority of users who actually need those items.
| suprfsat wrote:
| The cheapest iPhone 11 was $699; the iPhone 12 mini is more
| expensive at $729, and the regular iPhone 12 is $829.
| Polylactic_acid wrote:
| They also moved OLED to the regular phone and added 5g.
| Without internal information its impossible to know what
| cost what. I doubt the brick and airpods cost anything more
| than $4.
| skohan wrote:
| I have heard a lot of speculation that the move to remove the
| charger was motivated by Apple's desire to sell more
| chargers, but I suspect that they could care less about
| moving chargers.
|
| I believe it _is_ profit motivated, but the real reason is
| the massive savings they will get on logistics by fitting
| almost 50% more iPhones in a shipping container by removing
| the charger.
|
| If they pass some of that savings onto the consumer, it seems
| like it's win-win.
| robocat wrote:
| > but the real reason is the massive savings they will get
| on logistics
|
| When positing causes, I suggest you learn how to do back-
| of-the-envelope calculations in your head. A container can
| hold a _lot_ of iPhones. The cost of transport is trivial
| in comparison to the value, so the profitability delta is
| very small. I.e. I think you are making up stuff.
| giantrobot wrote:
| An ISO container can hold a lot of iPhones. You might
| notice however shipping terminals don't have a lot retail
| shoppers.
|
| There's in fact a whole _chain_ of facilities that handle
| supplies to retail outlets. Every gallon of diesel fuel
| burned to get things from those shipping terminals to a
| retailer emits about 20 pounds of CO2. Increasing the
| number of things per vehicle reduces each thing 's CO2
| contribution. It also decreases the shipping cost of each
| thing as it goes through that _chain of supply_.
|
| The shipping for each iPhone might be a small portion of
| its retail price but it needs to be paid up front and in
| aggregate. So millions of dollars in shipping costs
| getting even a 30% savings is still millions of dollars
| in savings.
|
| Besides the retail cost of goods is unrelated to the BOM
| and transaction costs. It's what the market will bear.
| Savings in BOM costs or transport just go into the
| retailer or manufacturer's pocket as profit.
| skohan wrote:
| Yeah sure, the price of logistics is probably tiny
| compared to the BOM of an individual phone, but at the
| scale Apple is operating on, make no mistake this is
| saving them a huge amount of money.
|
| And it's not just logistics - it's storage space in
| warehouses, and probably a number of other things which
| are made substantially more efficient by fitting the same
| amount of units in a lot less space.
| robocat wrote:
| Now you are replying with a double-down on your original
| thesis "but the real reason is the massive savings they
| will get on logistics"?
|
| Sure, add all the logistics costs in your head using some
| heuristic (security is a big component you are missing).
| Now compare that number to the profit of selling an extra
| charger, or the BOM price of a charger.
|
| HN is a community of thinkers and you will be judged by
| your responses to criticism. Learn from your mistakes, or
| back up your opinions with some numbers and calculations
| so we can learn from you.
| skohan wrote:
| With all due respect your responses are incredibly
| condescending. I believe my point stands. If you
| disagree, I suggest that you propose a concrete model
| which would refute my thesis. I don't know who you are to
| speak for the "HN community".
| robocat wrote:
| Touche. I apologise, you are correct. You are still
| avoiding answering my criticism of your original thesis.
| giantrobot wrote:
| The same thing happened with iPods back in the day. The
| first couple generations came in these fat cubic boxes with
| cables, headphones, an installation CD, a printed manual,
| and a charging brick. The 3rd gen was probably peak
| packaging as it also game with plastic adapter inserts for
| licensed 30-pin adapter products and both FireWire and USB
| cables. The 5th gen iPod came in a much flatter box,
| probably a third the height of the old ones. That meant an
| freight container or UPS truck could carry three times more
| iPods. The iPod mini vs nano was very similar in terms of
| packaging savings.
|
| Besides the better shipping efficiency it's also worth
| considering the real estate. Retailers, including Apple's
| own stores, have finite storage space for products. The new
| iPhones come in multiple colors for each model. Shrinking
| the packaging dimensions means a wider selection can be
| kept in stock in the same space as a narrower selection of
| the previous model.
|
| Regardless, at the scale of Apple selling iPhones a small
| decrease in weight and/or better packing efficiency can
| mean huge CO2 savings. A gallon of diesel producers about
| 20 pounds of CO2. Doubling the iPhone/mile because of
| smaller packages halves the CO2/iPhone production.
| carlivar wrote:
| Meanwhile I can share my Macbook Pro's charger with my Google
| Pixel phone.
| ogre_codes wrote:
| You can plug the new iPhone cable into the MacBook Pro charger
| as well. Or into any of the ports in your MacBook for that
| matter.
| ntsplnkv2 wrote:
| These "bitch and moan about Apple" posts on here are so tiresome.
| They're not smart, they're not funny, and serve zero purpose,
| except to cater to the echo chamber.
|
| Meanwhile Apple's phones continue to be extremely profitable.
|
| Lots of downvotes - I get it, I hit you where it hurts. But tell
| me where I'm wrong, discuss with me?
| macintux wrote:
| Even as an Apple fan I found this post to be useful
| perspective. It is indeed an awkward change for _new_ iPhone
| users, and those who don't have USB-C chargers lying around.
|
| Apple ameliorated that by lowering the price on the auxiliary
| components, and I think it's a good change overall, but the
| post still has merit.
| cma wrote:
| What's the point of the mag-safe branding if the magnet doesn't
| really provide any safety if you trip on the cord, since the
| phones are so lightweight and would still get yanked to the
| ground?
| [deleted]
| henriquez wrote:
| Seems like literally just a trademark Apple had laying around.
| I also don't see how it's better or more convenient than just
| plugging in a cord. From what I understand it wastes a lot of
| electricity.
| RandallBrown wrote:
| It wastes less electricity than normal Qi wireless charging
| because it can line up the coils more perfectly.
|
| It also opens up a whole ecosystem of MagSafe accessories
| like wallets, car mounts, tripods, etc.
| nickthegreek wrote:
| I found the the best thing with it is that it can be done
| with one hand. I would consider it way more convenient for me
| and I can't wait til a 3rd part releases a car mount.
| tshaddox wrote:
| I agree that a major motivation here is that Apple will make a
| bit more money from some customers who are willing to pay. But I
| don't really agree with the claim that the environmental
| arguments are ridiculous. If everyone only buys the accessories
| they want, and assuming some customers previously received
| accessories in the box that they didn't need, then presumably
| this will actually reduce waste. There is still periodic "waste"
| when cable and charger standards change, which is happening right
| now, but that should happen far less often than the iPhone
| release cycle.
| chmod775 wrote:
| >But I don't really agree with the claim that the environmental
| arguments are ridiculous.
|
| Their arguments are completely and _utterly_ ridiculous given
| Apple 's other behavior. Environmental considerations clearly
| don't motivate them a single bit.
|
| If they gave even a single shit about the environment their
| devices would have easily replaceable batteries and would be
| designed to last instead of to be replaced every year.
|
| Also this:
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/07/apple-g...
|
| And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z17HAA-moY
|
| Etc.
| tshaddox wrote:
| I suppose we're talking about a distinction between it being
| true that this decision will reduce waste, and this decision
| being primarily motivated by the desire to reduce waste. You
| seem to be saying "well yeah, they're reducing waste, but
| only because it's profitable for them." Shouldn't that be a
| _good_ thing?! I would certainly prefer a world where
| decisions which tend to be good for the environment tend to
| also be good for business.
| jiofih wrote:
| All of the iPad and Macbook charging bricks have been USB-C for a
| while, there is definitely a huge population of users that
| already have one. Plus, you know, it plugs into _any_ usb-c port,
| it doesn't have to be white. You can also get a standard Qi
| charger for what, $15?
| jonny_eh wrote:
| But they don't support the new faster Magsafe charging in the
| iPhone 12.
| bpicolo wrote:
| People have been reporting that the Magsafe charging is
| tremendously slow, unless you specifically have the paired
| 20w charger.
| [deleted]
| tshaddox wrote:
| Also, as the author points out (debunking their complaint
| immediately after issuing it, instead of simply removing the
| complaint from the article), you can use not only your previous
| iPhone's charger, but its cable (which obviously works with the
| charger).
| pfarnsworth wrote:
| Anyone who thinks this isn't a cost-cutting measure is delusional
| or utterly naive. This is strictly a bottom-line measure and they
| are draping it as a phony environmental move. Their profit
| margins are fat enough to afford a $5 charger, they just want to
| keep boosting their stock price.
| slg wrote:
| >"Hello, I'd like to buy one of the new iPhones, please!"
|
| >"Sure thing, here's the new iPhone 12. It's fast, beautiful, and
| is generally awesome."
|
| >"Sweet, I'll take it..."
|
| I guess this is a different topic, but it wouldn't play out like
| this. You have to decide if you want the iPhone 12, the 12 Pro,
| the 12 Pro Max, the 12 mini, the SE, the 11, or the XR and then
| you decide do you want the white, black, blue, green, gold,
| yellow, purple, coral, or red, and then you decide 64 GB, 128 GB,
| 256 GB, or 512 GB, then you decide if you want AT&T, T-Mobile,
| Verizon, or Sprint.
|
| I have lost count of how many dozen of different SKUs of iPhone
| Apple is currently selling.
| Polylactic_acid wrote:
| Its not really difficult though. When I went in to the store
| they showed me a row of 4 phones and told me the 11 was the
| most sensible option as well as the benefits you get from the
| pro. Picking a colour and storage option wasn't really an issue
| either.
| supernova87a wrote:
| Well, if they were going to make the change and yank the charging
| brick, they would have to do it _sometime_ , and it would break
| some number of people. It's just a question of when exactly. Is
| that not correct?
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| Had they not recently changed the charging options (shipping
| USB-C cables and MagSafe) and stuck with the classical Lightning
| to USB-A scheme I would have been fine with Apple not bundling
| the cables and chargers in the box. Because most folks have them
| in excess and these don't ever die.
|
| But since they changed the charging options, it really feels like
| a cost cutting measure they are trying really hard to spin as an
| eco-friendly one.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Why do you want a USB-A charging cable in 2020? My laptops
| don't have that anymore, and I don't even have recent laptops.
| Like most people I know would have to to use a dongle. No
| thanks. Move as quickly as possible to USB-C, please Apple, and
| no need for charging bricks anymore.
|
| > it really feels like a cost cutting measure they are trying
| really hard to spin as an eco-friendly one
|
| This is cynical.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| At least in the US there are plenty of USB-A wall sockets out
| in the wild. The apartment I just moved into has a few of
| them. Most planes, trains and buses with charging ports also
| have USB-A ports.
| Polylactic_acid wrote:
| Get yourself a single braided lightning to usb a cable and
| it will last you long after lightning ports are gone.
| rsync wrote:
| "Why do you want a USB-A charging cable in 2020?"
|
| Lots of wall socket USB charging ports are USB-A - even nice
| new ones with qualcomm quick charge (or whatever it is).
|
| Personally, I would much prefer utility ports (on the wall,
| in the rack, on the backs of computers) to _remain_ USB-A and
| leave the mini connectors on the devices themselves...
| toast0 wrote:
| As a not Apple user, I've got way more usb As than usb Cs.
| All of the laptops I have have at least two usb As, and may
| only have one C, which is often the charging port. My
| desktops currently have one usb C each, but since they're
| mostly useless, my next round will have all As and no Cs. The
| couple of devices I have with C plugs have attached dongles
| to A plugs, so I'm not losing anything by preferring A.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| > but since they're mostly useless, my next round will have
| all As and no Cs
|
| Doubtful. I'm pretty sure every single motherboard has at
| least one USB-C port in the back, and most will come with
| the new USB-C header as a lot of the latest cases have a
| front USB-C port.
| oarsinsync wrote:
| > > it really feels like a cost cutting measure they are
| trying really hard to spin as an eco-friendly one
|
| > This is cynical.
|
| The iPhone SE launched with earbuds and a plug. It no longer
| ships with them. The retail price hasn't changed. It can be
| good for the environment _and_ a cost-cutting measure.
|
| Another commenter has noted that by making the box about half
| as thick, that doubles the number of units that can fit in a
| container. That's a _huge_ saving for Apple. And yet the
| iPhone SE still retails at the same price despite now
| including less.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Maybe prices for materials or manufacturing or handling
| went up? Maybe they want to make some more profit this year
| for their workers and shareholders? Times are hard.
|
| Why is any of this your business?
|
| Either the price works for you or it doesn't. There's no
| moral component to this. You aren't entitled to low costs.
| [deleted]
| saagarjha wrote:
| > Why is any of this your business?
|
| Because I am the person paying for the thing?
| chrisseaton wrote:
| But why do you care what their costs are? What will you
| do with that information? Either the product is worth it
| for what you need or it isn't.
| h4waii wrote:
| You're telling him not to care about their costs, but
| Apple is straight up telling him to care about their
| savings, but don't pass it on to the consumer.
|
| Generally speaking, people care about saving more of
| _their_ money, they care much less about how much money
| the company they are purchasing goods or services for is
| able to retain by providing less for the same (or more)
| price.
| tshaddox wrote:
| No, Apple is telling him to care about the reduction in
| material waste.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Is the iPhone as useful as before? So it's the same price
| as before.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| But it's now it's just the iPhone. It used to be the
| iPhone + earbuds and plug. It's objectively less product.
| [deleted]
| fiblye wrote:
| It's not as useful because without a charger I can only
| use it until the battery dies.
|
| It's like selling a car without tires, saying it's a big
| savings for the company while not changing the price.
| bmarquez wrote:
| > But why do you care what their costs are? What will you
| do with that information?
|
| Make a purchasing decision?
|
| There are value-conscious customers out there, many of
| which hang out on "deal hunting" sites even for luxury
| goods. Although the type of consumer willing to
| scrutinize the bill of materials in order to optimize the
| best specs per dollar is probably looking at Android.
| [deleted]
| Bud wrote:
| Why? All of those old USB-A chargers and USB-A/Lightning cables
| will still charge the new iPhones perfectly well.
|
| So will every iPad charger ever made, btw.
|
| And every USB-C Mac charger ever made.
|
| Honestly, it doesn't matter whether you or any particular
| observer wants to give credit for this reducing e-waste or
| being "eco-friendly". It's a plainly obvious fact that it will
| massively reduce e-waste and be a massive net positive on the
| eco-friendly front, in about 5 different ways. Those facts
| remain valid regardless of how one chooses to think about the
| ethical/moral/environmental cred or goodwill that Apple
| deserves for this move, or Apple's profit motives.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| Sure.
|
| But it's not the optimal experience.
| Bud wrote:
| For me it's an optimal experience: my device cost went
| down, I get to choose what I spend that money on (such as
| superior 3rd-party chargers with multiple ports), and I get
| the satisfaction of knowing that Apple didn't waste
| planetary resources making inflexible single-port chargers
| and $5 wired earbuds that I will never, ever use.
|
| I do admit that it's not optimal for every single user, but
| I do think it's a net improvement for most users.
| ProAm wrote:
| > For me it's an optimal experience
|
| You are a one off use case. The standard deviation for
| your experience is pretty large. Especially for first
| time iPhone buyers.
| Polylactic_acid wrote:
| I just switched to an iphone recently and the brick would
| have been a non issue for me. I already have a bunch of
| USB C bricks from my android phones going back to the
| Nexus 5X
| paledot wrote:
| Or Apple's did. Do you really think they're passing the
| savings on to the customer?
| notJim wrote:
| Honestly, who cares? If you're spending $1200 or whatever
| on a phone, is your life really that much better if you
| spend $1190 instead?
| shuckles wrote:
| Luca their CFO has consistently said on investor calls
| that they aim for 35% gross margins, so any excess seems
| indeed reinvested into other features on the BOM or
| passed on to the customer.
| newbie578 wrote:
| Gahaha, this has to be a joke. Man, Apple doesn't even
| need a marketing department when they got fans willing to
| die on a hill for them.
|
| I refuse to believe that you are so obtuse to think that
| your device cost went down. Apple keeps increasing the
| price each year regardless of circumstances, their cost
| went down, not yours.
|
| What we should congratulate them for is to be able to
| skimp out on users, sell them a story about eco-friendly
| awareness and make it out like a bandit.
| Polylactic_acid wrote:
| The value for money you get with each device keeps going
| up. The update support lifetime keeps going up to the
| point where devices are getting 6+ years of updates while
| the SoC gets further ahead of the snapdragon range every
| year.
|
| I have both android tablets and an iPad from 2014 and the
| ipad still feels like a modern device with the latest OS
| version while the android tablets are stuck on a 2015
| build of android and feel very slow.
| oarsinsync wrote:
| > my device cost went down
|
| This seems to be a common narrative, that the savings
| have been passed onto the consumer. Is it really true?
| It's difficult to be sure, as there's no iPhone 12 that
| comes with the plug + earbuds bundled. However, there is
| one data point that most people don't bother to consider.
|
| The iPhone SE (2020) base model launched at $399 in
| April. It still retails for $399 today.
|
| In April, the iPhone SE shipped with headphones and a
| plug.[0] It doesn't anymore today.[1]
|
| In the case of the iPhone SE, the price absolutely did
| not go down. All that happened was that Apple increased
| their profit margins.
|
| [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20200427193132/https://ww
| w.apple...
|
| [1] As part of our efforts to reach our environmental
| goals, iPhone SE does not include a power adapter or
| EarPods. Included in the box is a USB-C to Lightning
| cable that supports fast charging and is compatible with
| USB-C power adapters and computer ports. https://web.arch
| ive.org/web/20201023201007/https://www.apple...
| whynaut wrote:
| I wasn't aware of the change to the SE 2020, but for 12s,
| storage is doubled across the line (or price dropped
| $100, depending how you look at it).
| Polylactic_acid wrote:
| In a sufficiently complex product/company there is
| absolutely no way to work where costs went. Yes the SE
| without a doubt just become worse value but we have no
| way of knowing where the money went. Likely it didn't
| just vanish in to a wormhole but it instead will be
| invested in to R&D giving a better value for money
| product in the future.
|
| The only thing consumers need to think about is "Does
| this product provide enough value to me for its cost".
| For me personally a charging brick and earpods provides
| no value since I would just leave them in the box.
| criddell wrote:
| > a massive net positive on the eco-friendly front
|
| Isn't wireless charging a big step backwards with respect to
| power efficiency? With the millions of phones they sell and
| the fact that every one of them is charged daily, are the
| losses due to Apples new charging scheme insignificant?
| stocknoob wrote:
| I'd say the energy used to charge phones is
| inconsequential.
|
| The iPhone 12 has a 11 Wh battery. Assume it's fully
| charged daily, that's 11Wh * 365 ~ 4kwh per year. It's
| about 50 cents of electricity to charge the phone for a
| year. It's imperceptible given other household electricity
| items.
|
| If people are concerned about electricity usage, they
| should give away LED lightbulbs.
| Sodman wrote:
| Pro tip - If you make under 39k and live in Massachusetts
| you can literally get free LED lightbulbs through Mass
| save! It's an awesome program.
| https://www.masssave.com/en/saving/income-based-offers
| selectodude wrote:
| If a MagSafe charger can charge at 15W using a 20W Apple
| charger, that's a 75 percent charge efficiency. The charger
| itself is about 80 percent efficient converting from the
| wall, so the whole thing is about 60 percent efficient. An
| iPhone 12 has a 15 wh battery, so you need about 25 wh to
| charge the battery fully vs 19 wh. So the losses for 17,000
| full charges using MagSafe over a regular cable would equal
| the charge in a 100kwh Tesla Model S.
|
| ETA: the total charging loss from ten million iPhones
| charging 0-100 percent via MagSafe every day for a year
| would be 21,505 teslas.
| jiofih wrote:
| Your numbers are a bit high, wired chargers have become
| more efficient and barely waste any energy, see here:
| (14wh spent to charge a 13wh battery) https://www.researc
| hgate.net/publication/309917872_Improving...
|
| The last bit is also wrong, 6wh * 10M = 600 Teslas. You
| can also read as "600 Teslas can provide phone charging
| for ten million people for an entire year", take it as
| you wish...
|
| Your fridge can easily use 100kWh a month. You'll save
| far more energy by closing the door a couple seconds
| early every time you open it. Phone charging is a drop in
| the bucket.
| jiofih wrote:
| Wired chargers are 85%-90% efficient, Qi is somewhat
| between 75-85%. If you live in a country powered by green
| energy it shouldn't be a concern :)
| criddell wrote:
| So wireless results in about 10% efficiency loss? So if
| half of the iPhone 12 users adopt wireless charging
| that's about 36 billion charge cycles per year (100
| million phones charged daily). Those are big numbers. It
| seems like it would add up.
| Polylactic_acid wrote:
| I'm going to guess that 15% missing on the wired is the
| brick itself. I'm not sure how 5% more losses can make my
| phone heat up quite hot and also charge very slow. Are
| you sure it isn't 15% lost at the brick powering the
| wireless charger and then another 20-25% on the charging
| pad itself?
| ochoseis wrote:
| Apple's move and their explanation honestly feels about as
| genuine as hotels asking you to be eco friendly by hanging
| the door-tag to skip room cleaning. The difference is that
| hotels at least give you the option.
| toast0 wrote:
| Isn't Apple giving you a new option here?
|
| Before, you were forced to buy the bundled wall wart, now
| you have the option to keep using what you had or buy a
| charger if you need it?
|
| They're still forcing a bundled cable, but it's a different
| cable you probably don't have many of?
| ochoseis wrote:
| The equivalent option would be to offer the charger by
| default, and allow eco conscious consumers to opt out.
| Making it opt-in for folks without a working charger
| would strike a nice balance, even if it's not feasible.
| p1esk wrote:
| But, just like with hotels, you're still paying the same
| price.
| tshaddox wrote:
| Sure, Apple also might tend to get more money per iPhone
| customer now, but that doesn't invalidate the
| environmental argument.
| mesozoic wrote:
| If it is not obvious they are just pandering about reducing waste
| to make more money then you should probably shop for some bridges
| in the Sahara I hear they have nice deals now.
| Animats wrote:
| It's almost like Apple is emulating those grey-market photo
| dealers in Brooklyn who sold "stripped" cameras, minus all the
| accessories the manufacturer included, at lower prices.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2020-10-27 23:00 UTC)