[HN Gopher] Less screen time and more sleep critical for prevent...
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Less screen time and more sleep critical for preventing depression
Author : rustoo
Score : 355 points
Date : 2020-11-13 13:36 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.westernsydney.edu.au)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.westernsydney.edu.au)
| metalrain wrote:
| Makes perfect sense. When you eat, sleep and exercise well your
| body and mind gets better.
|
| You can always ask if more screen time causes more depression or
| more depression causes more screen time.
| sabujp wrote:
| sleep deprivation also leads to irratibility, you just become a
| shitty human
| eikenberry wrote:
| I made it as far as this quote (which is from the paper) "higher
| frequency of alcohol consumption was surprisingly associated",
| which then opened the question as to whether the researchers had
| pre-determined their results and fit the data to them.
| Researchers expressing surprise at the results in a study I take
| as a sign of bias.
| theuri wrote:
| For anyone interested in this thread - "The Upward Spiral" is a
| related book worth reading, that dives into both the neuroscience
| of depression and practical steps to work one's way out of it.
| https://www.amazon.com/Upward-Spiral-Neuroscience-Reverse-De...
| nippoo wrote:
| I honestly think (for me, at least) the implied causation is the
| wrong way round here. When I'm feeling sad, I tend to be
| unmotivated and liable to spend more time / all day on my phone.
| When I'm feeling great, I'm generally motivated to go outside /
| do DIY / read / have a lot less screen time. I initially spent
| lots of effort trying to reduce my screen time (parental
| controls, etc) before realising that it was probably an
| indicator, not a cause!
| ytwySXpMbS wrote:
| This is my exact problem with all these studies. I thought
| "people who don't care about themselves eat unhealthily" was a
| bit of a no-brainer. I started a clinical psychology course on
| EdX recently and the first exercise was Common Advice. They
| went on the say the only useful common advice to give to a
| depressed person is to tell them to go for a run, as that was
| the only correlation supported by evidence. A RUN! That's so
| unhelpful that it's actually a common joke between the
| depressed people that I've met. If you can't get out of bed,
| you aren't going to be able to go for a run.
|
| Similarly, if you ruminate on horrible things every time you
| stop and think, you're going to want to go on your phone late
| into the night until you're so tired you can go straight to
| sleep. If you don't even know if life is worth living, it's
| quite hard to avoid eating that bag of chips. I thought these
| were obvious, but perhaps it's not to people who've never
| experienced depression. Perhaps the reductionist view, as
| unhelpful as it is, plays into it too.
| bityard wrote:
| Well it's not totally crazy. I suffer from mild chronic
| depression and I have noticed that doing my morning exercise
| routine makes it much more likely that my mood will be decent
| throughout the day than if I wake up and decide I just don't
| feel like exercising that day.
|
| I have also experimented on myself to see whether 30 minutes
| of exercise improved my mood in the middle of the day. Not
| totally surprisingly, it _usually_ did. Not always, but
| usually. It never once had a negative impact.
|
| The main problem is one of motivation/willpower. Telling a
| depressed person that they should exercise to feel better
| seems like solid advice on the surface of it, because it
| stands a high chance of both being true and actually working,
| BUT they are not in a place to usefully implement the advice.
| The brain gets in the way and overrides what we see as
| "common sense." The same way you can't tell an alcoholic to
| have a nice big steak instead of a beer for dinner. The
| person usually even knows the "right" thing to do, they are
| just literally unable to take the right action in the moment.
| rconti wrote:
| Well, it works both ways. You may not be able to bring
| yourself to go for that run 9 of 10 times. And maybe on the
| 10th time, you could actually do it, but you say "well,
| what's the point, I'd never stick with it". One of the most
| powerful things for me is doing the right thing. Even if it's
| just once. It's amazing how small steps can turn into habits.
| Florin_Andrei wrote:
| You're highlighting the feedback mechanism that this disease
| uses to maintain itself. The spiral of doom.
|
| Any attempt to break it is beneficial, though it may feel like
| the opposite is happening.
| bgroat wrote:
| I remember once explaining to a friend that depression wasn't
| really "feeling sad all the time"
|
| It was more like "Emotional AIDS" - it's not that the
| depression made me sad, it just took away all my emotional
| immunity/resilience
| colecut wrote:
| No idea why this would be downvoted.
|
| I lost my only sibling to an overdose last year.
|
| I lost the mother of my child to cancer in February.
|
| Three days later, my current gf was diagnosed with cancer.
|
| Even when I'm not sad, I'm definitely highly irritable,
| easily overwhelmed, lack patience...
| rjkennedy98 wrote:
| > When I'm feeling sad, I tend to be unmotivated and liable to
| spend more time / all day on my phone.
|
| Switch "on my phone" with "drinking alcohol" and that's
| literally how all alcoholics think.
| exolymph wrote:
| Uh, that doesn't mean it isn't true. Alcoholics don't drink
| for no reason. (Source: had to quit drinking because of the
| problems it was causing for my life.)
| pmiller2 wrote:
| Of course not. Nobody does things for "no reason." It's
| more that sometimes we don't understand the motivation.
| With alcoholics (and drug addicts in general), my guess as
| to the reason is that it feels good, or otherwise does
| something for them. I've been told one's first time doing
| heroin or smoking crack is pure heaven. People who quit
| generally do so because it causes secondary problems for
| them. And, that makes sense to me, because why quit
| something that feels good, but doesn't cause any other
| problems?
|
| Most of this is pure speculation and extrapolation from my
| own experience. I had a short period of time when I was
| drinking excessively to deal with work stress. Once I
| noticed, I was able to stop, because I knew it would cause
| me problems later on. Luckily, I never suffered any health
| effects or legal issues from it, mostly because it was only
| about a 2-3 week period when I would drink every day after
| work.
| kylecazar wrote:
| Ehh -- I'd just reconsider the 'literally all' part. There
| are alcoholics who just chase the feeling for itself -- a
| quick fix for sad thoughts, but not for all. It's a
| complicated disease, but some with issues crave booze
| regardless of how they're doing mentally. At least in my
| somewhat limited experience.
| john_moscow wrote:
| Anecdotal, but a few observations that work for myself:
|
| * Lack of sleep lowers my energy and creative function. I no
| longer have energy to try new things, or to think out-of-the-
| box. The brain enters "survival mode" of just following the
| routine to make it to the end of day. If I let this accumulate
| over multiple days, the overall motivation and happiness starts
| dropping exponentially. This makes sense, since a lot of my
| happiness comes from envisioning goals and achieving them,
| which I cannot do if I don't sleep enough.
|
| * If I get more than 1 night of bad sleep, I usually try to
| squeeze in a strenuous hike or just go cycling around the
| neighborhood. At least 1-2 hours, ideally 4-5. It increases the
| physical tiredness and makes it easier to fall asleep. It also
| fills in the short-term memory buffer with random stuff, that
| seems to have a positive correlation with subsequent sleep
| quality.
|
| * Screen time generally depends on what you are doing. Routine
| work or clickbait browsing is bad because it doesn't make you
| tired and doesn't give enough short-term impressions. Playing
| games can give impressions, but they also raise excitement,
| that makes it harder to fall asleep. What works for me is to
| read for 30-60 minutes just before bedtime. Classic books, sci-
| fi, anything that is not exciting, but involves imagining what
| I just read about. After I'm done reading, I make a conscious
| effort to NOT think about work/plans/stressful topics. Thinking
| about what I just read usually works pretty well.
|
| * You need to be very careful with alcohol. Moderate amount
| (say, 1-2 beers) makes it easier to fall asleep, but there's a
| high chance of waking up after 2-3 hours once it wears off. It
| also seems to recalibrate the nervous system, making it harder
| to fall asleep without drinking. So if you are having sleep
| problems, completely cutting of any booze for about a week
| shows wonderful results, despite the initial setback.
| rconti wrote:
| With alcohol, your REM sleep is suppressed, and resting heart
| rate is quite a bit higher.
|
| I watch my sleep cycles on my Garmin (and also track their
| 'body battery' thing, which I think is based on stress which
| is based on heart rate variability). If I have "some" drinks
| (eg, more than just 1 or 2 small ones), I can easily see how
| RHR is high and my recovery doesn't even BEGIN until say 3am.
| When you start tracking and watching those stats every day,
| you can see how different you feel when you get a good
| night's sleep. Vs an alcohol-aided-but-not-drunk-not-hungover
| sleep.
| varispeed wrote:
| Isn't that addressing the effect of someone's depression? It's a
| bit like saying you have a headache because you take painkillers.
| If person is unhappy "screen time" is just a coping mechanism. If
| you take it away, then the person will find something else to
| numb their worries. You need to have an honest talk with yourself
| or a therapist to get to the bottom why you feel this way and
| then see how you can address it. These "rule of thumb" things are
| akin to "why don't you just smile?" or "stop worrying" and don't
| help.
| blix wrote:
| Cause and coping mechanism are not mutually exclusive.
| varispeed wrote:
| Yes, you can get into a feedback loop, but that needs to be
| talked about, not just outright dismissed.
| blix wrote:
| I don't feel it's dismissive at all. Yeah "rules of thumb"
| and correlational studies are imperfect, but I think they
| are better than nothing.
|
| It's usually easier to break out of a feedback loop once
| you recognize that you are in one.
| fulafel wrote:
| What are the options for voice based interaction with software?
|
| Eg it might be cool to have audio based Ingress style AR/reality
| games, that would involve narration and speech recognition. Do
| they exist? (edit: apparently yes -
| https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/playcrafting-and-bo... -
| but also no: https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/bose-
| ends-audio-a...)
| mmaunder wrote:
| I think sleep is critical for mental health and simply glancing
| at your bright cellphone screen during the night is an act of
| self sabotage. Even on the low setting with blue light filter on.
| It is still spectacularly bright compared to what our bodies have
| gotten used to over the past several millennia.
| dpeck wrote:
| Not all screen time is the same and it's far beyond time for us
| to stop equivocating Facebook/Instagram and other social media
| nastiness with all the positive things that can be done on a
| screen.
|
| It confuses people, and as we stare down another quarantine and a
| long cold winter telling people to spend less time with what
| could be their only contact to the outside world can be actively
| harmful.
| yepthatsreality wrote:
| Agreed computers are tools for productivity and entertainment.
| You should set yourself up for success and utilize your
| machine/time accordingly. These are the first steps to exiting
| the screen time nightmare one may find themselves in.
| nkozyra wrote:
| I just read the abstracts of one of the studies[1] and it's
| really including TV and general computer time, not necessarily
| social media time.
|
| It also references a study that seems to focus more on computer
| time and "information" overload (at least from the
| abstract).[2]
|
| I think it's a mistake to assume that sedentary screen time is
| not impactful so long as you're avoiding social media.
|
| [1]
| https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1291...
|
| [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31059635/
| godelski wrote:
| I think there are big questions on what screen time actual is
| though. Isn't general computer time essentially social media?
| At least for most people? Most people also aren't watching
| documentaries on TV or doing things that exercise the brain.
| All admit I didn't read your sources but I'm assuming reading
| books isn't detrimental so it's probably not the sedentary
| nature of the activity (I could be completely off). I do
| think that since these days we use computers so much that it
| does warrant breaking down the activity.
|
| Does anyone have a study that does do this comparison?
| SonicSoul wrote:
| you're commenting on a study with what sounds like an opinion
| that feels right to you. maybe it's not just about social media
| vs "positive" activities. some of it may be related to screen
| addiction and inability to focus due to externals stimuli. any
| unhealthy habit _could_ have a configuration where its not as
| unhealthy to some people, but it doesn 't mean the study is
| "confusing people"
| noxToken wrote:
| This will remain opinion until we can get longitudinal
| studies that account for this. Current pediatric
| recommendations are basically no screen time for small
| children even though there are apps specifically for
| educational enrichment. It may be that all screen time is
| bad. Until the educational and informational parts are
| accounted for, all we can do is speculate.
| johnfn wrote:
| The study considered "screen time" as an unvariegated
| whole[1]. That _is_ confusing. Screen time is not a singular
| activity - there 's an infinite diversity of things that you
| can do on a screen - some great for your health, other very
| poor.
|
| It'd be like a study came out saying "food proven to make
| Americans overweight" because, on average, people eat junk
| food. Strictly speaking that is true, but it's not _useful_
| information.
|
| [1]: Alright, it considered "non-work screen time" as an
| unvariegated whole - but my point still stands here.
| porknubbins wrote:
| I guess that as screens become ubiquitous lumping everything
| into "screen time" will become increasingly meaningless. I
| imagine that in medieval times illiterate tribes who came
| across writing would see it as a kind of technology and be
| surprised how much "paper time" scribes or monks spend, without
| regard for the content of the information or the actual task
| being accomplished.
| sneak wrote:
| I think a lot of people perhaps underestimate the value of an
| iPad that's not signed in to _anything_ , and is just loaded
| chock full of epubs (and perhaps offline maps). You don't even
| need to turn on the Wi-Fi.
|
| Computers can be simple tools for reading and study, if you
| want them to be, and make deliberate choices to that end.
|
| The last few months I've spent a lot of time consciously re-
| engineering my screen time into what I want it to be and do,
| not what is easiest or most convenient. Getting off of most
| mainstream social media has helped tremendously, as it's truly
| insidious how engineered it is to seem like the most important,
| engaging thing in the world.
|
| I'm doing much better now that I'm not exposed to strangers
| screaming about nonsense for a few hours each day.
| laurent92 wrote:
| > Getting off social media
|
| Can anyone who lives alone at home, get rid of social media?
| I have lost contact with my parents, I'm single, I do have
| 20-50 friends in my city but not enough to feel loved during
| lockdown anyway. I know social media and movies are a poor
| man's affection, but I removed that, I'd be madman #10000th.
| I'd also argue most studies don't check whether it's not the
| lack of affection/social fabric which causes addiction to
| social media and other problems.
| sneak wrote:
| You can have direct internet contact with your friends
| without social media. Send emails, have chat conversations,
| make video calls, the lot of it. It's real, and not
| filtered and sorted to benefit advertisers.
| blisterpeanuts wrote:
| >>> I'm doing much better now that I'm not exposed to
| strangers screaming about nonsense for a few hours each day.
|
| When you put it that way... :)
|
| I agree and I've mostly switched to a bedside Kindle after
| hours.
| aaaxyz wrote:
| If you're spending a lot of time reading, I'd suggest getting
| something work an e-ink display. It's much easier on the eyes
| sneak wrote:
| I significantly prefer backlighting for reading. To me, an
| iPad is way better than a printed book. For some reason,
| light-emitting is easier for my eyes.
| bosie wrote:
| How about a ebook reader that has a light built in? I
| also dislike reading printed books due to the lighting
| issues but much prefer a kindle oasis over my ipad.
| ppod wrote:
| A couple of interesting things about the journey from the press
| release to the story: the press release says "associated with",
| but the summary says "impacts on", and the headline says
| "critical for preventing"! Also, they pick "screen time and
| sleep" from among five factors, the others were less tobacco
| smoking, more physical exercise and more (yes) alcohol.
|
| I don't have a problem with causal claims from these kinds of
| methods in principle, if the regression is well done with good
| controls. But I'm not at all convinced that they can isolate
| self-reported sedentary screen time reliably from self-reported
| physical activity.
|
| https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s129...
| deevolution wrote:
| Anecdotely, I can confirm that most of the time that I read
| hackernews comments I tend to get depressed.
| arduinomancer wrote:
| > critical for preventing depression
|
| How did they make the jump from "people with high frequency of
| depressed moods have more screen time" to "less screen time is
| critical for preventing depression"?
|
| Its possible that is true but claiming this based on the study is
| like saying "less lying in your bed all day is critical for
| preventing depression"
| sudo_rm wrote:
| Lately I have been doing my best to limit my "optional" screen
| time (optional meaning anything that is not for work and school).
| I fingered though Cal Newport's "Digital minimalism" [1] about a
| month and a half ago and decided to try out the 30 days tech fast
| in the book. The idea is to use this time to reset your
| relationship with tech and to really figure out what you value
| and what you are trying to accomplish with your tech habits. If
| other people are like me and struggle with compulsiveness with
| using the internet and computers, I recommend giving it a shot.
|
| [1] https://www.samuelthomasdavies.com/book-
| summaries/business/d...
| offtop5 wrote:
| Thanks.
|
| Just ordered this book. I had to recently delete my Reddit
| account as I found myself getting drawn into needless
| arguments.
|
| Don't get me wrong, occasionally I would have fun learning new
| things, but like all other social media it turns into angry
| people yelling.
|
| Aside from Reddit I have been Social Media / Online Dating free
| for just under 2 years.
|
| It's amazing how much mental energy I would waste on this
| stuff. No judgement to people who enjoy social media, but it
| cutting it boosted my emotional health by leaps and bounds.
|
| More time for making music !
| mrweasel wrote:
| That could help explain why it seems like 50% of users on Reddit
| and Imgur suffer from depression. They're (partly) depressed
| because they spend to much time the media where they write about
| being depressed.
| waterhouse wrote:
| The causality could also go the other way. The most visible
| users will be those who post a lot. And those who are depressed
| because their life sucks and they don't have much valuable
| stuff to do, or those who aren't doing much valuable stuff
| because their depression makes it too hard, are likely to have
| a lot of time during which posting on the site seems like the
| best available activity.
|
| It seems really difficult to separate causality here. Which is
| something that disappoints me about the article. The string
| "caus" does not occur on the webpage; three of the four bullet
| points say "associated", and the only bullet point that uses a
| causative-sounding phrase ("were protective of") sounds like it
| may be used to mean another _statistical association_ rather
| than an _established causation_. Clicking through to the study,
| it seems to be 100% based on association of results that they
| got via surveys.
| slx26 wrote:
| Yes, the title is very misleading. It's very important to
| educate people about this.
| Hendrikto wrote:
| Neither this article nor the research paper support the claim
| from the headline. A correlation was found, no causation afaict.
| softwaredoug wrote:
| My iPhone X died recently, and I put my SIM card into an old
| iPhone 5. It's been great for limiting screentime. It has limited
| storage, so I can only put the most essential things on it. I can
| get spotify for podcasts, tethering, google auth for 2FA, and
| basic texting/phone/facetime functionality. It does basic web
| browsing, but rather slowly. Haven't needed much more than this.
|
| The main thing I miss is the ability to take lots of
| photos/videos of the kids....
| dkersten wrote:
| I love how a lot of commenters are redefining "screen time" to
| suit their opinions or otherwise rationalise their screen time,
| rather than taking the study as is. I mean, sure, perhaps
| different types of screen time have different impact and this
| requires further study, but using anecdotes and opinions isn't
| that.
| bananabiscuit wrote:
| Isn't it pretty obvious not all screen time is the same? If it
| was then you could do these studies with people staring at
| simple glowing white rectangles and get identical results.
| ravitation wrote:
| It certainly seems very likely that what you're doing with
| said screen matters quite a bit, but this is also an
| extremely complex thing to try to study. Not only can the net
| result (i.e. a hypothetical positive or negative result) of a
| given activity change based on the individual instance of
| that activity, but it can also change based on the person
| doing that activity (whose mindset could also change
| depending on the instance, which could effect the net result
| of a given instance of a given activity).
|
| The point is, while it might be "pretty obvious that not all
| screen time is the same," it would also not be that
| surprising if screen time was still negatively related to the
| average number of common screen activities over a certain
| amount of time (which is what you would expect from a study
| like this).
|
| I'll of course hedge my statement, by saying that the Hacker
| News community is likely not a representative sample when it
| comes to common screen activities relative to the general
| population.
| say0nara wrote:
| No, it's not obvious at all.
| dkersten wrote:
| My comment wasn't meant to agree or disagree with these
| statements, just to comment on how I find it interesting that
| people are making assumptions or defining screen time to suit
| their own opinions.
|
| As for whether its obvious: maybe, but there are many cases
| where something seems obvious (certainly to laypeople in the
| subject) but that are actually flat out wrong.
|
| So, as someone who hasn't studied these things, I say, yes,
| it seems obvious, but just because I think its obvious,
| doesn't necessarily mean its true.
| philosopher1234 wrote:
| we can only think things when a double blind study of 100
| people on average think them. we are all excatly the mean
| of N>100 other people, and anyone who believes otherwise is
| mistaken.
| glogla wrote:
| Yeah, screen time "doomscrolling", screen time "playing
| online board game with friends", screen time "reading a book"
| and screen time "watching a movie" are pretty different
| screen times.
| metamet wrote:
| But they're all... screens. And you're spending your time
| looking at them, regardless of what's on them and how you
| interact with it.
|
| I do agree that they are different. But they're still
| screens.
| bananabiscuit wrote:
| Right, so just because this study doesn't bother to
| differentiate between different things people can do with
| screens, you are saying it's all the same?
| falcolas wrote:
| Insufficient information to make a reasonable conclusion,
| I'm guessing.
|
| It could very be related to what's on the screen, but it
| might not. Insufficient data. Screens are very new in
| relation to the development of human physiology, so I
| don't think we can assume that screens themselves _are
| not_ a cause.
| lumberjack wrote:
| To me it is not obvious. What causation do you think is at
| play here? A lot of commenters seem to think it is some kind
| of emotional mechanism, mentioning things like social media
| and such. But it might just be a physical mechanism, like
| being too sedentary, or eye fatigue.
| waterhouse wrote:
| How about something like e-ink? That's a screen, but in
| terms of optical properties I believe it should resemble
| paper.
| lumberjack wrote:
| I never tried e-ink for prolonged times, but I always
| found the contrast to be a bit lacking, which is
| something that contributes to eye fatigue. Last I used
| such devices was over 5 years ago though, so maybe
| technology has improved now.
| blix wrote:
| If you somehow managed to convince a group of people to stare
| at a glowing white rectangle for 10 hours day, I would be
| pretty surprised if you couldn't notice any mental health
| effects.
| Sunspark wrote:
| After reviewing all the porn on the internet, I am no
| longer able to sustain an erection.
| bananabiscuit wrote:
| True, but I argue that those mental health effects would be
| different than other kinds of screen time :)
| blix wrote:
| Probably, but the effects of different types of screen
| time would likely be more similar to each other than
| going for a walk in the woods.
| balfirevic wrote:
| Since it is an observational study, any talk of screen time
| causing/worsening depression (or abstaining from screen time
| helping it) is going to be speculation anyway.
| dcolkitt wrote:
| That's a fair point, but remember that the map is not the
| territory.
|
| We've come up with the semantic concept of "screen time" that
| bundles together a lot of disparate activities, because it
| seems intuitively and linguistically compelling. But imagine an
| alternate universe where the equivalent term "screen time" also
| included origami for some reason. The study would reach almost
| exactly the same conclusions, because such a small fraction of
| people engage in origami relative to binge TV watching. That
| doesn't mean that origami is actually as unhealthy as binge TV
| watching. The map is not the territory.
| mattlutze wrote:
| The researchers appear to have tried to look at Sedentary
| Screen Time, but had to correlate passive TV watching and non-
| work computer use as those were the questions from the data
| bank they sampled.
|
| https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1291...
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| People are very resistant to the idea that something they enjoy
| could be bad for them. Instead, they tend to rationalize their
| own use as good while looking for ways to conclude that others'
| use is bad.
|
| The same thing happens with social media. It's fascinating to
| watch people bash social media on their chosen social media
| platform, under the assumption that social media is some other
| website that they don't use. That's why Reddit and Twitter full
| of people bragging they've deleted Facebook, for example. It's
| also interesting to watch the mental gymnastics people use to
| claim that the Hacker News comment section is somehow not
| social media for vague reasons (pseudonymous, moderated,
| technical niche, not mainstream enough) while ignoring the fact
| that we're all here posting content and up/downvoting it like
| the other social media platforms.
| technofiend wrote:
| In my humble opinion passive consumption of media is entirely
| different from engaging in a creative process. Perhaps it's
| just projection on my part but surfing the web for hours
| reading Reddit, Hacker News and YouTube is entirely different
| than banging out some new chapters for your NaNoWriMo novel,
| updating a blog or making a github commit.
| dkersten wrote:
| I actually agree. My point was just that our opinions are
| just that: opinions. We did not actually study it in a
| controlled scientific way.
| mattlutze wrote:
| The researchers attempted to control for this:
|
| "Sedentary screen time Sedentary screen time is calculated in
| hours per week, adding together the participants' answers to
| the questions 'In a typical DAY, how many hours do you spend
| watching TV?' (FC: 1070) and 'In a typical DAY, how many
| hours do you spend using a computer? (not including time
| using a computer at work)' (FC: 1080)."
|
| https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1291.
| ..
| jjk166 wrote:
| That seems like a terrible control. Plenty of people do
| non-constructive things on computers at work (I'm doing so
| right now) and lots of people are productive at home.
| johnfn wrote:
| I don't understand how this controls for GP's concerns.
| You'd need something much more precise, like "how many
| hours per week do you spend using the computer in an active
| creative pursuit such as writing, drawing etc."
| technofiend wrote:
| >and 'In a typical DAY, how many hours do you spend using a
| computer? (not including time using a computer at work)'
|
| Sure, that's at least an attempt. However would you
| characterize spending time on a personal project work?
| That's why I called out my specific examples of side jobs
| and hobby projects.
|
| I'm not rejecting the findings _In particular, maintaining
| optimal sleep and lessening screen time (which is often an
| issue in youth), while having adequate physical activity
| and good dietary quality, may reduce the symptoms of
| depression,"_ of lessening screen time in favor of more
| constructive activity like exercise. I 'm suggesting
| there's probably room here for a deeper dive into the kind
| and quality of screen time, because even bucketing it into
| just work vs everything else is arguably too broad. I
| believe some kinds of screen time are constructive.
| dash2 wrote:
| That's interesting, but have you got evidence for your
| belief? Are you sure the wish is not father to the
| thought here?
| jjk166 wrote:
| The onus is on those making the initial claim that they
| have properly accounted for error and that their
| interpretation of the evidence is the most reasonable.
| Questioning if a potential error has been accounted for
| or if another interpretation has been considered is
| important.
| technofiend wrote:
| Well clearly not, any more than I have evidence to the
| contrary. I did my best to qualify my statements that
| it's just one person's opinion. Sorry if that's not
| obvious.
| tahira0509 wrote:
| Interesting
| npsimons wrote:
| > In my humble opinion passive consumption of media is
| entirely different from engaging in a creative process.
| Perhaps it's just projection on my part but surfing the web
| for hours reading Reddit, Hacker News and YouTube is entirely
| different than banging out some new chapters for your
| NaNoWriMo novel, updating a blog or making a github commit.
|
| I will second this so hard, as it is my experience as well.
| Just staring slackjawed, mindlessly scrolling for hours on
| end, is a noticeable difference from writing code. I wish
| there were studies on these differences.
| SippinLean wrote:
| It was specifically "sedentary screen time" defined as the
| total "hours per week, adding together the participants'
| answers to the questions:
|
| 1. "In a typical DAY, how many hours do you spend watching TV?"
| and
|
| 2. "In a typical DAY, how many hours do you spend using a
| computer? (not including time using a computer at work)"
| sradman wrote:
| The paper _Multiple lifestyle factors and depressed mood: a
| cross-sectional and longitudinal analysis of the UK Biobank (N =
| 84,860)_ [1]. The study compares questionnaire results of healthy
| controls (HC) to people with a history of major depressive
| disorder (MDD):
|
| > Cross-sectional analysis of 84,860 participants showed that in
| both MDD and HCs, physical activity, healthy diet, and optimal
| sleep duration were associated with less frequency of depressed
| mood (all p < 0.001; ORs 0.62 to 0.94), whereas screen time and
| also tobacco smoking were associated with higher frequency of
| depressed mood (both p < 0.0001; ORs 1.09 to 1.36).
|
| This is correlation; it does not measure whether lifestyle
| interventions improve depressed mood.
|
| [1]
| https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1291...
| rand_r wrote:
| Good point. We should ban correlational studies like these.
| Science is littered with these types of after-the-fact surveys
| that explain nothing and provide no real information. The lack
| of a mechanistic understanding of cause and effect in systems
| produces hot air, as we've seen in Psychology and other soft
| fields.
| sradman wrote:
| I was not trying to diminish the study; correlation with
| N=84K participants is useful.
| throwaway3178 wrote:
| I've been suicidally depressed my whole life. I currently self
| medicate with reddit, youtube, etc. If I let my mind wander for
| just a minute the thoughts come flooding in.
|
| I also find it very difficult to go to sleep because it
| involves turning off my distractions and being alone with my
| own mind. I think the title should be changed.
|
| I felt this way long before tech entered my life; as a child I
| used books for this purpose.
| mmaunder wrote:
| Try yoga. The three week yoga retreat that the Beachbody app
| has is great to learn it without going to a class. I simply
| repeat the final week's flow. It may teach you how to still
| your mind by using the distraction of body movement to
| achieve a meditative state. This may allow you to ultimately
| meditate without the need for yoga. In other words, this may
| be a path for you to be alone with your mind without needing
| distraction. Best of luck.
| prewett wrote:
| I strongly recommend finding a good counselor or something
| along those lines for the flooding-thoughts. Self-medicating
| will help you survive, but it will not enable you to thrive.
| I've been doing what is effectively group counseling for the
| past couple of years and I've slowly learned to identify what
| the pain is that is driving my behaviors (it sounds like you
| might already be there), and from there, identifying the
| needs that are getting unmet. In my case, it's a desire for
| what St. Augustine describes as "home", a place where you are
| welcomed, or more broadly speaking, "community" (as opposed
| to a collection of friends which is what I have). I still
| have no idea how to get that, but I am making concrete
| changes to my life to at least randomly walk that direction.
| sjg007 wrote:
| Is the screen time thing about blue light? I mean I sleep way
| better and feel way better when I am camping away from artificial
| lights. In that respect I think artificial lighting causes
| depression and lack of sleep.
| Paianni wrote:
| I'm pretty close to selling off all my smartphones for this
| reason, it's the only way I can remove the temptation.
| IAmNotAFix wrote:
| Was this controlled for social interaction? For young people
| screens are just the standard fallback when you have nobody to
| hang out with (although surely not the healthiest one).
| kqr wrote:
| Is this "just" another observational study? (I.e. subject to all
| manner of confounding factors that affect the multitude of
| similar studies that already exist.)
| colechristensen wrote:
| Yet another bullshit headline.
|
| They correlated less screen time with less depression, they did
| not demonstrate that taking action to reduce screen time resulted
| in reduced depression, much less indicating it to be "critical".
| frankenst1 wrote:
| "lessening screentime may reduce the symptoms of depression"
|
| Can anybody explain how they could possibly distinguish these two
| scenarios:
|
| - A) Depressed people watch more TV/screen.
|
| - B) Watching more TV makes people depressed.
|
| I would expect both to be true to varying degree (maybe A even
| more so than B), yet they seem to expect B to be the dominant
| causation.
| sangli wrote:
| Anectodal of course, but I can tell from my own experience that
| sleep cures so many things for me. Also lack of sleep causes many
| ailments in me.
|
| I am definitely sad and angry when I don't get enough sleep, on
| top of not having enough energy. If I have a headache, taking a
| nap or sleeping longer always fixes it for me. If I have aches in
| my thighs and calves, taking a nap or going to bed early and
| catching 8+ hours of sleep fixes it right up.
| bfors wrote:
| One small thing that has really helped me mitigate the downsides
| of screen time is keeping my phone out of my bedroom. It charges
| at my desk. No more laying in bed scrolling before or after I
| wake up. I sleep better and feel better.
| brianmcc wrote:
| I intuitively agree that optimal sleep and exercise and diet and
| screen time probably make a difference to wellbeing, but am I
| alone in thinking that trying to determine a "link" between these
| things is lazy, easy, obvious and just wholly inadequate?
|
| We want to know, definitively, what are _causes_ and _effects_. I
| appreciate that 's hard. But why waste so much time and money
| just trying to establish "links" which are fundamentally just
| correlations.
|
| It's like admitting causation is hard, just aim instead for
| correlation - and call it quits after getting some headlines and
| maybe more funding...
| sp3000 wrote:
| Here is a cause and effect: Optimal neurotransmitter function
| highly depends on sleep quality and quantity (and you can
| further the connection to movement and nutrition as well). Sub-
| optimal neurotransmitter function can lead to sub-clinical or
| clinical depression.
|
| "Studies have shown that NREM sleep is important for turning
| off the norepinephrine, serotonin and histamine
| neurotransmitters, which in turn allows their receptors to
| "rest" and regain sensitivity [13]. This allows norepinephrine,
| serotonin and histamine to be more effective at naturally
| produced levels."
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4651462/
| baron_harkonnen wrote:
| It's not entirely clear to me from reading the points in this
| article and skimming the paper that they are able to control the
| direction of causality for this. That is the question as to
| whether or not "healthy" activity prevents depression or if
| depression causes us to reduce our healthy activity (and increase
| our unhealthy ones).
|
| The pandemic has been a great experiment in this and has me
| starting to think that many of these studies might have the
| causal arrow wrong. I absolutely spent less time on the screen,
| ran more often, drank much less and slept better immediately
| before the pandemic.
|
| Running as an example became much harder to do emotionally after
| the a few months of the stress induced by the pandemic. The lack
| of other runners out there seemed to confirm that other people
| were also feeling this impact.
|
| I spend more time glued to the screen "doom scrolling" and you
| can bet my drinking is up as well.
|
| But it's certainly not like all of these behaviors happened and
| then stress set in (in this case I wouldn't say "depressed" as
| much as "stressed", ironically I'm probably the least depressed
| that I've been in years).
|
| It seems to me much more likely that compulsive behaviors in
| general, and in this case especially the example of screen time
| are produced by the depression rather than it's causes.
|
| Certainly there is the possibility of positive feed backs:
| depression causes excessive drinking which unchecked can clearly
| lead to more depression. Same goes for screen time, sleep etc.
| wpietri wrote:
| Yeah, in my personal experience causality is not easily
| discernable. I definitely believe that for me a very regular
| sleep schedule helps my mood. But as you say, it's not a
| straightforward relationship. Bad sleep triggers bad mood when
| triggers bad coping behaviors that can disrupt my sleep, making
| it worse. Same thing for what I'm eating, exercise levels,
| amount of time invested in rewarding activities, how clean the
| house is, and I'm sure other things. It's a big causal snarl.
|
| That said, I do think focusing on good sleep is one of the most
| effective things I can do to manage my mood, so if people are
| going to have a too-simple understanding of things, "more sleep
| critical for preventing depression" is probably a pretty good
| one.
| robotresearcher wrote:
| From the article:
|
| "A higher frequency of alcohol consumption was surprisingly
| associated with reduced frequency of depressed mood in people
| with depression. This may potentially be due to the self-
| medicating use of alcohol by those with depression to manage
| their mood."
|
| So they explicitly consider your point for alcohol consumption.
| But they don't seem to consider it for sleep, screen time, or
| exercise.
|
| To complicate things, I find alcohol negatively impacts sleep
| and exercise, so the hypothesed self-medication with booze
| could score multiple hits.
| achandlerwhite wrote:
| I don't know. I feel like screen time is a misnomer. From my
| anecdata less social media more sleep is the key. If my screen
| time is reading a kindle or learning programming I doubt the
| impact is so bad. Of course anything taken to an extreme...
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| This is what something like a kindle shines. That isn't such a
| bad form of screen time. Other devices are dangerous for me
| because, well, here I am on HN rather than preparing for my
| day. If I picked up my kindle instead I wouldn't be on HN.
| bigredhdl wrote:
| Does anyone have experience where newer kindles or other
| e-readers keep them awake less than other ones? I have a 1st
| generation kindle paperwhite, but I still feel like the front
| light on it keeps me from getting sleepy versus just reading
| a physical book.
| baxtr wrote:
| This and endless reloads of news sites
| brudgers wrote:
| Depression is not a lifestyle choice. Our eating, exercise,
| sleep, etc. are habits developed over a lifetime. Chronic health
| issues, sexual abuse, traumatic death of a loved one, and bad
| luck are what to avoid. And of course some formulations of brain
| chemistry.
|
| Casting depression as a lifestyle issue is a step backward.
| Mental health is already stigmatized far too much. Depression is
| not a moral failing of will power. It's a response to adversity.
| A way profound unhappiness manifests.
|
| Kale, a peloton, and deleting Facebook won't change the past.
| W4ldi wrote:
| Depression does not have to be moral failing of will power, but
| it definitely can be cured by moral success of will power.
| johnfn wrote:
| I think this is a little too one-sided. Yes, there is a group
| of people who have depression due to factors outside of their
| control, and we should all be cognizant of that. But that
| doesn't mean that literally every person who's depressed falls
| into that group. There's another group of people who are
| depressed due to factors at least somewhat within their
| control.
| brudgers wrote:
| The assertion that people suffering depression can be divided
| into those suffering due to factors beyond their control and
| those suffering by choice is not supported by the article.
| People with a mental illness often are able to manage their
| symptoms. But the symptoms are not the cause of their mental
| illness. A schizophrenic is not schizophrenic because they
| choose not to take a prescribed medication that mitigates the
| visible symptoms of schizophrenia.
|
| An unhealthy lifestyle is a common symptom of depression.
| Lots of screen time, poor diet, low quality sleep, and
| inertia are factors in clinical diagnosis of depression. They
| are things that might lead a person to decide someone might
| be depressed.
| W4ldi wrote:
| The more I think about this comment, the more it just seems so
| wrong. Yes, depression is not always caused by lifestyle, but
| it definitely can be. What you are saying just sounds like an
| excuse for taking the easy path. If trying to change your
| lifestyle to fix your mental health is a bad thing, what is
| your counter suggestion? Taking pills that make you addicted,
| not solve the problem and make everything worse if you stop
| taking them?
|
| I know there are cases, where medication is inevitable and is
| the only option. But this is a minority. The vast majority of
| mental health issues we have today, are caused by lack of
| virtue and values, choice of diet, sleep and lack of social
| interactions.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| The vast majority of mental health issues is caused by a lack
| of virtue?
|
| Sure. General issues, maybe. Actual clinical diagnoses?
| Absolutely not. Yet you decide to paint both with the same
| brush. there are 3+ million _diagnosed_ bipolar people in the
| US. Clinal depression, anxiety, and ADHD rates are higher.
| This is not a mere "minority". There are significant numbers
| of people with chronic mental health problems.
|
| The attitude people have towards mental health is horrible.
| The first assumption is always that the person with the issue
| is at fault and it's up to them to convince any given person
| they meet that person's bar for not being at fault for their
| problems. Even if you meet that bar, they still treat you
| like shit.
| brudgers wrote:
| An alternative which has shown substantial empirical success
| is clinical treatment with a qualified psychotherapist
| experienced in the treatment of depression through the
| application of clinical treatment in a clinical setting. Such
| treatment may or may not involve the use of pharmaceutical
| and/or alternative medicines and/or medical and alternative
| treatments.
|
| Incidentally, this is the context from which the study draws
| validity and makes rational sense to conduct. Without the
| clinical context depression is not a medical diagnosis.
| ummonk wrote:
| Longitudinal study is better, but still, the causation likely
| goes both ways. Decreased sleep, worse diet, and more screentime
| are all things that happen due to getting increasingly depressed.
| They also drive depression (at least decreased sleep and worse
| diet do, and screentime likely does to the extent it is a proxy
| for lack of sunlight and human interaction).
| disease wrote:
| Does this mean recording music on a Tascam cassette recorder is
| better for me than doing the same on Ableton?
|
| Not trying to be snotty here, just wondering if it makes sense to
| categorize different kinds of screen time.
| theodric wrote:
| So you're saying depression is incurable? Fuck!
| deepstack wrote:
| More sleep time is critical for preventing depression period. It
| is not rocket science. Everyone can tell from their own person
| experience.
|
| Now it could be sometime when one is depressed one can't sleep.
| However, sleep pretty much helps every many things.
| bserge wrote:
| But not too much. I used to sleep 10-12 hours during depressive
| episodes when I had nothing important to do, it just makes
| things worse.
|
| Over 7-8 hours of sleep just makes me tired and sleepy the
| whole day (paradoxical, yeah).
|
| Forcing a limit helps a lot more.
| brianmcc wrote:
| The article seems to agree with you - it presents optimal
| sleep as important, 7 - 9 hours.
| the_only_law wrote:
| Yeah I either sleep 0-5 hours or 12+, rarely in between.
| Interestingly I usually feel better with the former (for a
| few hours before the microsleeps hit, at least). When i sleep
| late, I normally wake up with a bad headache, sore, really
| bad brain fog, etc.
| deepstack wrote:
| this is the reason why I think tech company ought to let
| employee sleep whenever they want as long as they want at work
| (not at meetings of course, although that is tempting
| sometimes), as long as they get their work done on time.
| duopixel wrote:
| When I work for myself, I nap at the slightest sensation of
| drowsiness. I'm not productive nor efficient while sleepy.
| Yet I've wasted so many hours in mindless stupor for my
| employers (especially after lunch) because napping on the
| clock is taboo.
| behnamoh wrote:
| I can't tell you how many times I wished there were "sleep
| rooms" in our university to wind down in afternoons and get
| refreshed for more study and work.
|
| They should at least offer them for PhD students who spend
| most their life in office.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| It starts off with this extremely neutral and reasonable
| statement that says nothing about causation:
|
| _Screen time and tobacco smoking were also significantly
| associated with higher frequency of depressed mood._
|
| And then goes on to say "We need to limit screen time" which is a
| baseless conclusion.
|
| Smoking is known to mediate depression because of what it does to
| brain chemistry. One medication that gets prescribed to treat
| depression has such a strong track record of causing people to
| stop smoking as a side effect that it now gets prescribed for
| that purpose.
|
| I will agree with commenters here objecting to the framing that
| "You need to reduce screen time as a means to treat depression."
| That assumption is unwarranted and not nuanced.
|
| Screen time likely goes up when you are tired and sick. Being
| tired and sick can help foster depression.
|
| The solution in a case like that is not "You need less screen
| time." It's "You need to get well and better rested."
|
| When I'm sick and tired, I spend all my time on the computer
| and/or playing games on my phone to keep myself occupied so I
| don't go nuts. Taking away my screen time at such times would be
| a net harm (yes, I know this for a fact).
|
| Granted, I have at times had to make judgment calls about _how_ I
| spend that time to make sure it 's constructive and not a bad
| habit.
| baron816 wrote:
| I'd really like to see Apple/Google or others try to turn screen
| time into a sort of currency.
|
| A child does some chores? They get 30 minutes of scene time added
| to their bank account. They keep some screen time unused and they
| earn interest on that time they can cash out later. Their sibling
| has a birthday? Let them transfer some time as a gift.
|
| Limit screen time and build some financial literacy and delayed
| gratification at the same time.
| bingerman wrote:
| I prefer managing my childrens' screen time myself rather than
| delegating yet another thing to some cold institution or those
| outright evil companies. Thankfully in my case they are usually
| more interested in real three dimensional things so there is
| very little to manage.
|
| In my opinion screen time is like the worst reward for your
| child. Screens should be treated like inherently evil tools
| that can be of value if used with awareness.
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