[HN Gopher] After losing my savings as an indie hacker, I can't ...
___________________________________________________________________
After losing my savings as an indie hacker, I can't do it anymore.
I quit.
Author : ChanningAllen
Score : 165 points
Date : 2020-11-15 20:36 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.indiehackers.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.indiehackers.com)
| vmception wrote:
| > All the time I think people are going to hate me, tell me that
| I am an idiot, a con maker, that my ideas are terrible, that I
| suck.
|
| so..... what's the problem here?
|
| > And they did many times, and I can't handle that while making
| $0.
|
| OOoooh.
|
| Yeah that makes sense. Better to sell shares of your SaaS company
| at 40x revenue and let your customers and investors lob the con
| man sentiment at you. Survivorship bias breeds this behavior :)
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| I don't know that I'd agree that you lost a year of your life.
| Rather, I think it took you a year to learn a valuable lesson and
| to learn it relatively early in life. For most of us "tech
| types," building stuff is the easy part. Telling other people
| about it, about why they should use it, why it's better than the
| other guys' -- that's the part we struggle with. You tried
| something difficult and learned something valuable. I hope your
| relationship survived/survives the experience, but remember that
| life is itself a series of experiences. That's what I would take
| away from this: it was a new experience, I learned something, and
| I came out of it on the other side a wiser person.
| blunte wrote:
| Not that this helps the author, but some of the most successful
| people failed many times before succeeding. In fact, those who
| fail before becoming successful seem to be better able to repeat
| success than those who win on the first try.
|
| There is a big element of luck in success, so multiple attempts
| may be necessary even if funding is available.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Steve Jobs did NeXt, which was considered a "failure."
|
| However, NeXtOS (and NeXtStep) became MacOS, then iOS, which is
| the operating system for the iPhone; probably the most
| successful product ever made.
|
| I empathize with the author, but it takes a lot to be an indie
| hacker. I am not an indie hacker. I'm a software engineer that
| is doing my own thing; with no thought of compensation. there's
| no way that I could have done that when I was younger.
|
| I just love doing this stuff. I'm good at it, and I don't have
| to prove anything to anyone; which is nice.
| test1235 wrote:
| I think it's important to note that each attempt is a gamble,
| and not everyone can afford to keep losing.
| allenu wrote:
| This reminds me of the famous Keynes quote, "Markets can
| remain irrational a lot longer than you and I can remain
| solvent."
|
| Even if you have the greatest idea, you can't predict whether
| people will even want to try your product. It's a numbers
| game and a luck game. As we've seen with other posts about
| successful solo projects, sometimes you get lucky and a
| social media influencer boosts your product, but you can't
| bank on it.
| elmo2you wrote:
| > I think it's important to note that each attempt is a
| gamble, and not everyone can afford to keep losing.
|
| This is true, and pretty much always has been. It's also why,
| despite much propaganda (some know it better by the name of
| "The American Dream") and a few lucky exceptions,
| entrepreneurship has mostly been an endeavor of the more
| privileged, with access to enough funds to make several
| mistakes (or sometimes multiple in parallel) before hitting a
| jackpot.
|
| For some reason, this often appears a rather touchy subject,
| if not a cultural taboo. In particularly in the USA, where
| many apparently believe that taking a risk as an entrepreneur
| should somehow result in success if you persevere. Some might
| even feel almost entitled to it, or so it appears. Which is
| rather odd, if you'd ever look at the statistics of failed
| business. Not to mention the many crazy and often totally
| unrealistic ideas some folks come up with.
|
| Maybe it's all just a product of (cultural) brainwashing,
| ignorance, or just too much hope on a better live (or
| desperation about the current one).
|
| EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying that how the system works
| is fair. As a personal opinion, on the contrary. But
| complaining about how things didn't work out as you
| believed/hoped they should have, is like being angry at a
| bull for attacking you while being a vegetarian. Neither bull
| nor the system care.
| crispyporkbites wrote:
| This is the side project in question: http://nomadmail.io/
| radicalriddler wrote:
| His landing page has a number of grammar issues.
|
| > nomadmail is made for normal people: writers, authors,
| content creators. People who want to write newsletters to
| another people.
|
| If he wanted to have another shot, that's an easy problem to
| solve to get the ball rolling. Run your copy through a service
| like "Grammarly" or hemingway, and get it fixed.
| elmo2you wrote:
| Without any intention to sound overly harsh, I sincerely
| doubt that better grammar could make the project a success.
|
| For me this is one of those (typical) examples, of a rather
| (too) generic tool, solving a problem that is already being
| successfully solved by a number of other (free) tools.
|
| AFAIK, tools like these can sometimes still succeed, if you
| pick a very specific/narrow niche market and focus all your
| marketing on that market, and offer special(ized) features
| for that particular market.
|
| But as a generic tool, or one that tries to "do it all" for
| too wide a market, I don't think I've ever seen that succeed
| (commercially). At least not from this position, being a new
| kid on the block and competing with already established tools
| doing the same. Just not enough of an edge over the
| alternatives, I think.
|
| I do feel sincerely sorry for the creator, if he believed
| this would work out for him. But I (also sincerely) believe
| it just never had much of a (realistic) chance from the
| start. I can't make it sound any nicer than that.
| logronoide wrote:
| Best advice a serial entrepreneur ever gave me: don't risk your
| own money. I have seen a lot of people losing everything chasing
| a dream. It's the most probable outcome of entrepreneurship. Heal
| your wounds and stand up!
| xchaotic wrote:
| I'm glad it's out there - for most people, the 'boring' software
| dev career at a larger tech company is better off financially at
| critical junctions in your life and often lets you solve more
| challenging/advanced problems as compared to doing
| accounting/sales/pm/hr/dev work all by yourself. I've been
| following an ex-googler who reached $30k in revenue after two
| years (total), compared to his previous salary+options of around
| $225k/year. But most importantly you're not stressed out as much.
| cblconfederate wrote:
| how can one "quit". indie hacking is not a "job"
| sgdesign wrote:
| From what I've seen there seems to be three main paths to being a
| successful indie entrepreneur:
|
| 1) The "Maker" Path: you slowly improve your own skills and
| reputation as a developer (or designer) until they give you a big
| enough advantage that you can translate them into a successful
| product. This usually means first growing an audience through
| blogging, conferences, courses, etc.
|
| 2) The "Marketing" Path: you become so good at the "business"
| part of your business that the you're able to launch new products
| from scratch without a preexisting audience. It's tough to know
| if this really works or not but I assume with all the money spent
| on Google Ads some of it _has_ to work... right?
|
| 3) The "Idea" Path: you have an idea that you believe in so much
| that you'll basically stop at nothing to make it work, even if it
| takes years (which it probably will). You usually pick up the
| other skills along the way.
|
| I feel like the poster here suffers from not quite fitting in any
| of the main paths: they did not seem to have a large pre-existing
| audience or network to launch to, hate anything related to
| marketing by their own admission, and their ideas -while
| perfectly good products, such as https://nomadmail.io/- do not
| seem to be the kind of project that would inspire the kind of
| passion necessary to sacrifice years of your life.
| pengaru wrote:
| It sounds like this dude started nearly broke if he wasn't taking
| any external funding.
|
| Doing this stuff self-funded with a nearly nonexistent budget is
| harder than Hard Mode.
| lucb1e wrote:
| True, I got significantly more in savings than what he started
| with and that's just my buffer that should last a few months
| (without downgrading my living while I look for a new job) plus
| pay for something expensive breaking (in case such unfortunate
| circumstances come together) without having to sell ETFs. Also,
| assuming they're from the USA, life is probably more expensive
| than where I live.
|
| Nevertheless, if that money was enough _for them_ to last a
| year, that isn 't a super small amount of time either. But
| around the 6-9 months mark, it might have been a good idea to
| start looking for alternative funding (a regular job, even if
| it's just a low paying one), especially if there is no social
| welfare system where you live (if there were, you'd be able to
| live indefinitely on $0k while you try that self-employment
| thing; though similarly you wouldn't be going to any
| restaurants).
| geophile wrote:
| I can relate to this, in a number of ways, including the complete
| inability to self-promote. Many years ago, I had an idea for some
| software, so I left my job and worked on it. (My wife was
| understanding and supportive.) I did not have a business idea, I
| had a technical idea. I worked with a "business guy", who turned
| out to be worthless. Every time I had to leave my desk, where I
| was having a blast programming, my stomach knotted. I just could
| not stand any activity related to marketing/selling.
|
| I was finally acquhired (to use a term invented later) by a local
| startup that needed what I was doing, for a signing bonus, decent
| salary, and a big chunk of equity. (This was in the late 80s. My
| "plan", such as it was, would not work now, because software is
| basically given away.)
|
| I guess the lesson is this: know your limitations, and work
| around them. If you hate doing X, then don't force yourself to do
| X, because you will suck at it compared to the many people who
| love doing X. And you will be miserable. Find a situation where
| you can do what you enjoy, and are good at, and somebody else
| does X.
| blaisio wrote:
| > I had around $12K in savings. Enough to cover a year of
| expenses and a bit more. I stopped spending money on almost
| everything.
|
| Yeah, that sucks. I'm sorry you had a bad experience.
|
| I think one thing for the community to take away is you need to
| be in a good position financially before you can start a startup
| - unless you can get funding. Especially for indiehackers who
| don't usually take outside investment, $12k in savings is not
| enough. It is not normal to have to stop going out at all or to
| be pinching pennies. Not everyone can afford to start a startup.
| For some reason, this concept is almost never talked about in the
| startup community, but it's really important.
| itake wrote:
| I don't see that takeaway at all. He didn't fail because of
| lack of money. His life is not worse due to spending his
| savings. He still has a highly valuable skill set and can
| easily replace that with 1-3 years of working at a company.
|
| If he has $500k, spent $20k living cheaply for a year, I'd bet
| he would be in a similar position that he is in now and choose
| to re-enter the workforce after a year of failure.
| tmpz22 wrote:
| > He still has a highly valuable skill set and can easily
| replace that with 1-3 years of working at a company
|
| 1-3 years of work is not a casual expense.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| I think if he had started with more savings, he would have
| been less bitter about the failure. He still would have been
| able to take his girlfriend out for dinner.
| axetheone wrote:
| No doubt about this, when I reached that part of the article I
| was startled with that relatively low amount of savings and the
| courage on starting a venture like that... It can not be
| understated on how having enough money saved up really helps
| not only enduring periods with no money but also a much lower
| anxiety associated with that (you need to be in a good mental
| shape in order to do things after all).
| yayr wrote:
| Apparently, this is a list of things built over the year:
|
| - https://nomadnest.org an alternative to Couchsurfing
|
| - https://coffeelist.co - a coffee community
|
| - https://nomadasdigitales.com - a digital nomads community in
| Spanish.
|
| - https://lanzame.net - a Product Hunt in Spanish.
|
| - https://classline.io - a SaaS for teachers to simply
| communicate with students over email, this is using the
| technology that I created for nomadmail.
|
| for one person this is just too much to get it right in one year
| I guess. How much time can one really spend to deeply understand
| customers and their wants/needs?
|
| Apart from that - answering the classical questions like what
| problem does it solve? why now? etc. points me to a lot of issues
| with copy-solutions, especially some of these ones during a
| pandemic.
|
| thinking ahead: if the code quality is good, I can imagine a lot
| of people paying decent money on learing how he did it - although
| also in this niche there are some players.
| melvinroest wrote:
| Thank you for writing this. It is making me see what's at stake,
| which is basically this:
|
| > So the real cost is more than the money I lost. I made my
| girlfriend stay home for a year, we didn't do anything, we didn't
| buy clothes and ate the cheapest food, etc.
|
| ---
|
| > I got much more from the articles that I wrote here on Indie
| Hackers than from any of my projects. And I did those in a couple
| of hours.
|
| I know you don't like that it only took a couple of hours. But if
| you got more from them, why not go further into that? 80/20 etc.
|
| > Every time that I want to promote something, my stomach hurts.
| If I share an article on Reddit I feel anxious for a week. When I
| go to a Facebook Group to suggest my apps, I feel sick. If I send
| a private message on Twitter or Linkedin, I can't sleep. All the
| time I think people are going to hate me, tell me that I am an
| idiot, a con maker, that my ideas are terrible, that I suck. And
| they did many times, and I can't handle that while making $0. So,
| I quit.
|
| That sucks. I'll be on the lookout for these signals as well. If
| I have them, then I either try to find a growth hacker type of
| person, or quit as well.
|
| > I always wanted to write more. I love it. But I felt that I
| couldn't write if I wasn't successful. But I guess there are no
| rules.
|
| Indeed, there aren't. When you write, you get to set the frame
| and tone of your message.
| randomsearch wrote:
| - doing the project in your spare time and gradually
| transitioning to full time after you validate and start making
| money means less risk and less poverty
|
| - was this a problem-driven product? Because this seems like a
| crowded market, which means you probably need to be able to
| outcompete the existing products
|
| - startups aren't for everyone; those gut feelings could have
| been identified by spending a few weekends doing market research
| and validation.
|
| - so it took a year, a year is nothing. You learnt you don't want
| to do startups and probably learnt a bunch of stuff that would be
| useful in the future. You challenged yourself. And you'll be more
| grateful for that regular pay check in the future.
|
| It's not a disaster, it's learning and experience and those
| things are valuable.
| gscott wrote:
| I spent 9 years on a groupware crm. Made $5,000 total on it
| mostly begging for users to make a "donation".
|
| Drove myself and my family into the poor house for something
| people enjoyed using for free but wouldn't pay for... made plenty
| of mistakes.
|
| I thought if I didn't quit on it I wouldn't fail, but looking
| back it started failing the second I launched it as a generic
| product... you need a big marketing budget to launch i ended up
| giving it away free just to see people use it.
| idlewords wrote:
| Look on the bright side: burning through $38K in order to earn
| $60 means your true vocation is as a venture-funded startup
| founder. Go forth and pitch!
| lhnz wrote:
| A lot of people within these comments are saying crazy things
| like "your issue doesn't seem to be anything other than social
| anxiety" and talking about people's startup suitability as if
| what is important is having the right personality trait. Others
| talk about how he "[learnt] a valuable lesson" or act like he is
| only a few more failures away from a successful startup. It's
| condescending and misguided.
|
| I think he's the only one giving worthwhile advice here. You're
| very unlikely to succeed at bootstrapping a startup and people
| often don't realise this or act like through perseverance they
| will definitely succeed. He's lucky to have realised that he had
| other things in his life he cared about more after only a year.
|
| Many people want a family or want to buy a house. Others want to
| enjoy their 20s (or 30s for that matter). Others want to put
| money into investments or a pension for their old age. You could
| sacrifice all of these things chasing a startup dream and end up
| with nothing. There is a high likelihood of this. Unless you
| believe you've very different odds or a much lower cost (e.g. an
| investor) you probably shouldn't do it.
| bennysonething wrote:
| The huge positive here is that you tried, now you won't spend the
| rest of your life thinking what if. I'll bet you'll appreciate
| your normal life so much more after the sacrifices you made. Well
| done for trying.
| tekkk wrote:
| Contrary to some other HNers, my opinion is that you clearly
| lacked a social network that would have given you momentum and
| clear goals. You worked alone, you did not build the product for
| one specific client and you did not succeed in building
| relationships with potential clients.
|
| Sure, social anxiety might be part of the reason. But I think the
| biggest contributor to your lack of success was that you did not
| have a team around you to build the product. With a team, I'm
| sure you would have found it much more acceptable to cold email
| people and just feel no shame basically promoting the product.
|
| But that's one part of the whole picture. Sometimes, I guess, you
| just have to admit that people don't want to buy your product.
| Maybe it's because you don't know how to market it or maybe it
| just doesn't provide that much value.
|
| I wish Jose best of luck to future endeavors and I recommend
| getting to know other start-up oriented people. Possibly
| salespersons. To start your next project. Don't get discouraged,
| that's my advice. With the right people in your team, I'm
| positive you can succeed.
| spiderfarmer wrote:
| A year of trying but not succeeding does not mean you completely
| failed, or "lost a year". The things you do in the future will
| determine how much you've learned and how "lost" that year really
| was.
| hyperpallium2 wrote:
| Sales doesn't suit everyone (most people aren't in sales). Here's
| an alternative I used - though for a product not as an "indie
| hacker", so maybe not applicable.
|
| - It took a bit more than a year.
|
| - Meanwhile count users, not revenue. (need a free version)
|
| - Marketing, not "sales". Your product does a useful thing, for
| people with some need. Create a "pitch" - a short, memorable
| description of the problem and your solution. The idea is _word
| of mouth_ : people repeat your pitch to someone who needs it,
| like a virus. (A meme, by Dawkins' original definition). Free
| sales and advertising.
|
| - Focus on the product, not yourself. Like Feynmann saying his
| nerves disappear when focussed on the thing he's talking about
| (not him). Avoids self-consciousness. Free advertising (and maybe
| sales too).
|
| Less efficient than sales and advertising, but a way to make
| money without doing them.
| ilamont wrote:
| _I feel that I have lost a year of my life._
|
| I had a similar feeling some 10 years ago after my first startup
| failed. I felt that I had wasted one year of my life and was very
| bitter about the failure and the personal sacrifices that came
| with it.
|
| In time my thinking came around. I better understood my limits,
| knew my preferences, and developed some new capabilities. I was
| also better able to navigate startup #2 which is still going
| great as a bootstrapped company. My cofounder ended up on a
| corporate software dev team, and is also doing well.
|
| Bottom line: things will get better. Regard this as a learning
| experience that helped determine a more rewarding future path
| (probably not doing your own startup, but that's OK, too)
| mbdesign wrote:
| Agree with this sentiment. When you're in the moment, it may
| feel as if you're loosing time. But failing should be the best
| school you ever have. You might had to do research on X or
| train some aspects of your development skills etc. You always
| take that with you. The experience itself, is never lost.
| mlthoughts2018 wrote:
| It's also possible and common to just lose the time with no
| redeeming experience, learnings, perspective, etc., no matter
| how open-minded, self-reflecting and positive you may be. Not
| all experiences have meaningful lessons within them.
| Sometimes a large chunk of lived experience is just totally
| void of value.
|
| And that's ok too. Not everything has to be recast as value
| additive or enriching from some more mature or greater
| perspective.
| fierarul wrote:
| Yes, making money with a personal project is much harder than the
| pop articles make it seem.
|
| People that stay at a job might actually just have a much more
| accurate assessment of chances involved and their own
| capabilities.
|
| That job at Amazon? Go for it! It probably has some stock options
| too.
|
| Honestly the whole idea of startups has been somehow perverted
| beyond belief. At least from reading the US news, startups are
| basically a standardised product themselves, in the same way you
| have building codes. For an investor the startup is a fungible
| sprocket that just found a different niche. This kind of...
| conformity seems the opposite to any true creative business
| making.
| qaq wrote:
| It's not really a lost year, you learned for a fact what you like
| and don't like to do. You don't have to obsess with what if I
| quit my job and gave it a try questions and doubts. You can find
| a job/project that is a good fit to your personality type and
| skill set and be comfortable and happy.
| switch11 wrote:
| This is a difficult post to respond to
|
| Firstly, your issue doesn't seem to be anything other than social
| anxiety
|
| If you have to 'lose sleep' after contacting someone on LinkedIn
| about your product, then you are just not suited to doing a
| startup
|
| Secondly, there is nothing to feel bad about
|
| Vast majority of people are not suited to starting a company or
| working in a small startup
|
| Lots of good jobs in middle and large companies for you
|
| Thirdly, the scale of stuff you are talking about is miniscule
|
| I walked away from a Green Card to start my company
|
| If I didn't succeed, I would have lost access to the developed
| world FOREVER
|
| You are upset that your girlfriend had to stay at home one year
| and you couldn't take her out for dinner????
|
| Finally, this is a Catch 22 situation. Not sure why you are
| submitting this or writing about your experience if the ENTIRE
| reason you quit was you couldn't handle doing sales and marketing
| and putting yourself out there
|
| I'm reluctant to respond because people who have social anxiety
| can sometimes take genuine feedback and mis-interpret it
|
| __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
|
| What I 'm trying to say is that the extent of the risk you took
| is not very high
|
| And the reason that stuff didn't work out is your social anxiety
|
| So just make sure you don't take the wrong feedback from what
| life is telling you
| blaisio wrote:
| Are you seriously shaming them because you think they have
| social anxiety and you don't think they took a big enough risk?
| pizza234 wrote:
| While the tone may be a bit condescending, what's the
| shaming? The social anxiety diagnosis seems very realistic to
| me, and there's no shame in not being suited for starting a
| company.
|
| I am familiar with startup company working, but I'm
| positively not suited to starting (or being a CEO of) a
| company, and I don't see any shame in it. To each their own.
| camphero wrote:
| > Firstly, your issue doesn't seem to be anything other than
| social anxiety
|
| And your issue doesn't seem to be anything other than inability
| to empathize with someone that is legitimately venting how
| freelancing can be a nearly impossible hurdle for some. Anxiety
| is not the same experience for all.
| [deleted]
| alfonsodev wrote:
| I think you are confused, this was posted on Indie Hackers
| under the self care section, not to hacker news directly.
|
| Besides that, there is no point to compare risks and suffering,
| both are relative and subjective experiences.
|
| And lastly, social anxiety could be (or not) by it self a major
| problem, bigger than losing a Green Card, your comment sounds
| too condescending and not really useful.
| aprdm wrote:
| Thanks for saying this ! It was akin to responding to someone
| suffering from something that people in Africa have it worse
| and they shouldn't be complaining ...
| Aeolun wrote:
| Or, you know, the stuff didn't work out for reasons other than
| their social anxiety. While it undoubtedly doesn't help, the
| bigger factor might be the actual products they were trying to
| produce/sell.
| maire wrote:
| I was painfully shy and started my own business. There is a lot
| of value in the startup experience even if he does not stay in
| the startup world.
|
| How did I do it? I had small goals each day and each week and
| focused on those goals rather than the outcome. It is the
| outcome that creates angst for the introverted.
|
| I had my own business for 3 years. The first year was painful
| the 2nd 2 years were productive.
|
| When I went back to traditional employment I had a confidence
| that I would not have had if I stayed on a traditional business
| path.
| OJFord wrote:
| > Thirdly, the scale of stuff you are talking about is
| miniscule
|
| > I walked away from a Green Card to start my company
|
| > If I didn't succeed, I would have lost access to the
| developed world FOREVER
|
| What? I'm British; before HN I'd never heard of a 'green card'.
| Maybe it's a policy that the USA won't let you in if you walk
| away from one once; _maybe_ Canada cares about that too.
|
| But I assure you, the majority of the 'developed world' (a)
| doesn't give a shit about; and (b) isn't equipped to take into
| consideration, American 'green cards'.
| lucb1e wrote:
| > I would have lost access to the developed world FOREVER
|
| What's wrong with being a programmer in a different country?
| Maybe I don't understand but as someone who writes code and
| doesn't have a "green card" (afaict that's some USA immigration
| thing) I really don't see the problem there. Not doing anything
| fun for a year seems like a much bigger sentence than not being
| allowed to stay in a place that you apparently didn't come from
| to begin with. There are a lot of other rich countries in the
| world if that's what you're looking for? I heard some of them
| even score higher on happiness indices.
|
| I do agree with you that OP seems to have social anxiety.
| Reading that they have a lot of trouble posting things online,
| that's not normal and definitely doesn't seem like a good
| recipe for someone who wants to make a living with a developer
| job in this digital world. But I don't agree that because _you_
| went through self-proclaimed bigger risks, this person isn 't
| rightfully frustrated after not managing to make money from
| self-employment.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| When I was 13 I had a paper route. It was almost all modern
| except three or four households that still used the collection
| model. The paper company would take their subscriptions out of
| my pay and send me to collect and keep it and any tips. I
| decided it was easier to just take the pay cut than knock on
| those doors.
|
| The whole concept still makes me intensely anxious and I would
| sooner quit a job than begin dealing with customers directly.
|
| But I'm hella good at my job and I'm quite comfortable not
| being that kind of person. As you said it's not for everyone.
| DoofusOfDeath wrote:
| Glad to know I'm not the only one. I had to give up my paper
| route (mid 1980s) because I was too shy to collect. I could
| get up at 5:30 a.m. every day and spend an hour biking hard
| to deliver the papers rain or shine, but I collections
| freaked me out, even though all my customers were nice
| people.
|
| The crazy thing is that it never occurred to me to discuss
| this with my parents, nor (AFAIK) did they ever consider
| having me see a counselor. I just kept on carrying a private
| shame about my cowardice.
|
| I really hope that parents are better these days about
| noticing when kids are privately suffering with various
| neurological / psychological issues, and that more resources
| are available for helping.
| ta1234567890 wrote:
| On a related note, social anxiety can be awefully crippling, I
| personally struggled with it for decades. The main tool that
| helped me overcome it was the book The Charisma Myth. Can't
| recommend it enough, it literally changed my life. It does take
| some work and dedication though.
| macromaniac wrote:
| Thanks for the recommendation, Ill give it a shot. It feels
| good to know other people have beaten it. Social anxiety has
| prevented me from working with others in any form (feedback,
| delegation, marketing).
|
| I remember first day of speech in college when it was my turn
| to speak. I got up, walked out the door, and dropped the
| class.
|
| It was hard to even work up the courage to post this comment.
| But i did. Baby steps.
| yuskii wrote:
| This is one of the most on-point, well said, pieces of feedback
| I have ever read on this site
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| >Firstly, your issue doesn't seem to be anything other than
| social anxiety
|
| I guarantee you it's more than that. If you create a product
| that actually solves people's problems, people will make the
| effort to reach out to you. I know this from experience - I
| have poor social skills but a good business sense, and would
| regularly make sales even when I was overwhelmed and avoiding
| contact with the outside world for weeks at a time.
| [deleted]
| outworlder wrote:
| > Thirdly, the scale of stuff you are talking about is
| miniscule
|
| Is it ? So is the lack of empathy.
|
| > I would have lost access to the developed world FOREVER
|
| No you wouldn't have. You would have temporarily forfeited the
| ability to _live_ at _one_ rich country.
|
| > So just make sure you don't take the wrong feedback from what
| life is telling you
|
| What IS the correct feedback? Certainly not yours.
| croes wrote:
| Ever thought that his anxieties are the result of his failing
| business and not how he started? And life is telling nothing.
| There is no guaranteed way of success. You can have all the
| abilities and knowledge you need and still fail miserably. Luck
| is a large part of every success story. Nobody has really
| unique capabilities.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| That is certainly not how it came through in his post. I
| thought he mafe it pretty clear he had terrible anxiety
| promoting his ideas and products.
| bawolff wrote:
| Not to be harsh, but that seems even worse. If you can't
| handle failures and set backs, you even more so should not be
| in the start up business because those things are definitely
| going to happen, a lot, if you are running any sort of
| business.
|
| Its the same as if you are terrified of heights, being a
| professional mountain climber is a very bad plan. You either
| need to get over it somehow quickly or choose a different
| career.
|
| And there is nothing wrong with that. We all have unique
| strengths and weaknesses. Success comes from following our
| strengths not trying to plow through our weaknesses.
| cortesoft wrote:
| I am confused by this sort of comment pointing out that he
| was not cut out for the life of an independent developer...
| well, yeah, that is what his essay is saying - that he is
| not cut out to be an independent developer. He thought he
| was, did it for a year, and realized he was not cut out for
| it.
|
| I don't understand this comment and the other similar ones
| acting like they are somehow adding insight... yes, he
| couldn't make it as an independent developer, that is
| literally the point of the essay.
|
| Repeating the reasons he lays out in the essay and saying
| "yeah, you won't succeed as an independent developer" seems
| a little like hearing someone at Alcoholics Anonymous tell
| their story and then responding, "Yeah, it sounds like you
| can't have a healthy relationship with alcohol"
| thothamon wrote:
| To the extent he is speaking only for himself and not
| making any kind of larger point, I'm not sure why it's on
| the front page of Hacker News.
|
| To the extent he's making a point such as "I gained
| nothing from this experience" or that he's asking for
| advice or thoughts, I think some of the thoughts -- such
| as working toward your strengths rather than through your
| weaknesses -- are interesting.
| bawolff wrote:
| I'm responding to what the parent wrote not the original
| article.
| mrmonkeyman wrote:
| Nobody has really unique capabilities?
|
| Wow.
| _aleph2c_ wrote:
| The thing that you can't lose is that spiritual drive that is
| the engine of your venture. With out it, all is lost, even your
| mental health. It's hard to predict how life will be when your
| gamble starts coming up short. It's hard to keep focus when
| your dealing with your girlfriend's anxiety, or when your
| running out of money without any backup plan. I have felt the
| author's pain, but from the pain comes a set of lessons you
| can't understand from reading a book. I hope that after he
| picks up his pieces he eventually executes again with a new
| game plan: to manage his downside, to have customer's chomping
| at the bit, to find proper financial backing, to establish a
| team of fellow believers, to sell into a well established
| network through a partner, or whatever lessons he has learned.
| Jare wrote:
| > the scale of stuff you are talking about is miniscule
|
| This is NOT a competition.
| tsomctl wrote:
| Speaking as someone that used to have a major problem with
| depression and anxiety, an important thing part of recovery
| is realizing that the shit you're worrying about isn't that
| important. Having other people tell me that the thing I'm
| worrying about isn't worth the anxiety was important.
| mrmonkeyman wrote:
| It is though. Sorry.
| icu wrote:
| There are different types of business people. Some people are
| fine with hardly any support. Some people can't stand to do it
| without support. Also, not everyone can be an entrepreneur, nor
| should they, just like not everyone can be an employee either.
| There's no shame in it, you are who you are. If anything you've
| gained extremely valuable insight into yourself and you were
| brave enough to confront who you are.
|
| I don't want to read too much into your article, but I just
| wanted to add that it sounded like you were doing things on your
| own which can be extremely hard (or easy) depending on your
| personality type. Also it sounded like having a marketing/sales
| co-founder could have made a difference. I'm not sure where I
| came across the advice that a start-up needs a hipster, a hacker
| and a hustler, but it's a rare individual who embodies all three
| qualities.
|
| My first 2 business failures were because I was inexperienced as
| an entrepreneur and didn't understand where my strengths and
| weaknesses were. My next venture was a success because I had co-
| founders and I could focus on my strengths.
|
| I'm sorry things didn't turn out well and I wish you luck in your
| next move. Whatever you do just be the best version of
| yourself... whatever that is.
| tamrix wrote:
| I would have rather tried and failed than to have never given it
| ago.
| tomc1985 wrote:
| I wish there was a better support framework in the US for people
| who want to quit their jobs and work on ideas. I really, really
| hate working for other people but the things I would like to work
| on instead are time-consuming and the core work is not easily
| farmed out.
|
| I'm currently saving up to do just that and its like, "I could
| buy a house with this money" or "I could go on sabbatical with
| this money", or "I could bet everything on a business that may or
| may not succeed and potentially lose it all"
|
| And if I do? There is nothing except going back to the tech
| grind, or homelessness, or another (far less lucrative) career.
| Unemployment won't help me (which is complete and utter BULLSHIT
| for the amount of money I've paid into it), and I'd be ineligible
| for social security due to that previous tech income hanging over
| my head. There are no, "sorry you failed, here's some money to
| get back on your feet and try again" grants
|
| It really underscores the reality that most of these founders
| have rich family or friends to fall back on.
| tpxl wrote:
| Hey.
|
| I've been working (with a co-founder) on a side project that's
| about to pan out for the past 2.5 years. About 1.5 years of
| that was working after hours, then about 10 months or so of 6
| hours at my day job and 2 hours in my company, then just
| recently I quit my job with about a years worth of savings and
| am full time in the company.
|
| The risk I took, until recently at least, was almost nothing,
| since I had a job all along and was actually saving money at a
| quick pace.
|
| You too can start a company without going bankrupt with a bit
| of planning and a bit of frugality.
|
| nb. I'm counting my project as a success if it brings me >= 1x
| median wage on the side, which is a low bar. Also, I am not
| rich.
| tomc1985 wrote:
| 'Working on the side' doesn't work so well for me. I've tried
| it, and I really struggle to make any progress. I also make
| art and usually that's where my productive free time goes.
| And switching off the artistic side is bad for me, mentally.
| Side projects and art draw from the same pool of mental
| energy as my day job and they both get the back seat,
| unfortunately.
|
| That's part of why I would really like to make a clean
| break... I just can't do the weekend warrior thing
| kungito wrote:
| Want some cake with it too?
| tomc1985 wrote:
| I don't really see how trying to find a way to sacrifice
| one's cushy job and income instead of free time is
| "having your cake and eating it too"
| mbdesign wrote:
| Would a co-founder in that case be beneficial? Assuming you
| both take the risk, it's less hard on you if it fails.
| Obviously pros and cons with this.
| tomc1985 wrote:
| Maybe, but I don't know anyone I would trust with that kind
| of thing
|
| Honestly the safest option seems to be relocating to a third-
| world country where the labor and the cost of living is
| cheap, so that said money can be stretched out over a few
| years. Or waiting til that pile of money gets a bit larger
| and living off ramen for a while
| tpxl wrote:
| >relocating to a third-world country
|
| There is a large part of Europe (and I'm sure the US) where
| the standard of living is decent and you can easily get by
| on <15kEUR/year.
| bialpio wrote:
| Average gross salary in Poland is ~$1400 if you are
| looking for options. But please do some research before
| relocating, current political climate is one of the
| reasons why I'm not really considering moving back
| there...
| tomc1985 wrote:
| As much as I would like to relocate to Europe, I don't
| have a Shengen passport and I would prefer to avoid the
| kind of region-hopping one needs to do to live long-term
| on a tourist visa.
|
| Right now I have my eye on either Latin America, rural
| Northern California, or Nevada. Humboldt area is very
| cheap right now, I am seeing 2br houses renting for $1000
| and studio apartments for 3/4 that in Eureka (which isn't
| all that bad; I just visited)
| tomc1985 wrote:
| Yup, those places are potential options. I try to use my
| travel time to scout places like these out
| wongarsu wrote:
| Even in a lot of Germany you can live on less than
| 15kEUR/year, just not very comfortably. In Eastern Europe
| a frugal person can probably live on a lot less.
| bluedino wrote:
| This is an instance where it helps to have a spouse that can
| support you, or parents/family you can live with.
| kofejnik wrote:
| > I wish there was a better support framework in the US for
| people who want to quit their jobs and work on ideas. I really,
| really hate working for other people but the things I would
| like to work on instead are time-consuming and the core work is
| not easily farmed out.
|
| I'm sorry, did I misread you or are you saying that work for
| hire is beneath you and so you you should be able to work on
| your ideas (which are all brilliant, no doubt), while being
| supported by other people, aka peons?
| nullsense wrote:
| Been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt.
| a4444f wrote:
| 1. put on your X hat 2. make your life miserable 3. no profit 4.
| quit
|
| what is wrong with that, where is the error?
| myth2018 wrote:
| That's unfortunate and I've been basically in the same position
| of yours.
|
| I've written here already about some issues I faced. In my case,
| I've lost all my savings and much more, but I'll not compare my
| situation to yours, that would definitely not help you. Only you
| know your own situation and what you're feeling.
|
| People will say that you might not have what it takes to be a
| successful startup owner. That may be true, but people often
| forget that there are other kinds of companies than startups, and
| you can perform really well even if you don't meet Paul Grahamer
| criteria for successful founders.
|
| I'm currently working on a regular job and planning to come back
| within a year or so. But I'm not taking that as a hard
| requirement -- I'll assess the situation by then and decide if
| it's really a good idea.
|
| I've come to realize that myself and my weaknesses are really big
| competitors of mine, and I'll try to manage them properly. I'll
| separate some money that I won't care too much if I loose -- I
| believe that that will help me to manage my own anxiety and the
| truckload of poor decisions I make after months of anxiety and
| stress.
|
| And I'll hire a salesperson to help me on this. Many say this is
| bad idea, that you yourself have to sell your product and so and
| so, and I thank you all for the advice but I'm not following it
| this time and OK.
|
| I'll work on presenting myself a bit stronger to people. It's
| interesting how condescending people become when they see that
| you are performing bad. They start to patronize you and feel
| overconfident to give terrible ideas. I don't blame them too much
| but, even to be fair to myself, some pieces of bad advice
| contributed to make my situation a bit worse.
|
| That's what I'm planning to do, see if it helps.
| czbond wrote:
| I believe the way for more technically minded folks to approach
| startups is this: I will fail, I will fail many times, I can lose
| a lot of time and money. I should see if people will pay me
| before I build it.
|
| Startups are REALLY, REALLY hard to make a living wage on the
| whole in a smaller period of time when selling things by the drip
| (eg: SaaS, Ecomm low price points, etc). The business is an art,
| which is different than the skillset engineers build up over
| years in their domain - yet want to achieve 'break even ASAP'.
|
| Edit: Business is a very 'social sport' - if social isn't your
| thing, you have to: compensate, overcome, hire out, or fail.
| [deleted]
| aazaa wrote:
| From another article written by the same author, it looks like
| the author mainly tried to create two-sided businesses (e.g.,
| markeplaces/social networks):
|
| https://www.indiehackers.com/post/how-i-failed-6-side-projec...
|
| This is one of the most difficult kinds of business to start. You
| need to attract _both_ content creators (sellers) and content
| consumers (buyers). Attracting just one group is hard enough.
| Attracting both is just about impossible. It 's even harder when
| you're kind of shy and sensitive to criticism.
|
| Hats off to the author for trying the almost impossible anyway. I
| imagine there are some really good lessons in that experience.
| joshxyz wrote:
| Marketplace platforms are the hardest ffs. a16z's articles
| breaking down the complexities of those platforms are enough to
| give me anxiety already.
| Causality1 wrote:
| Yeah, running a financial endeavor like a software business
| requires you to be 50% tireless robot and 50% narcissist
| cheerleader. Most people can't do that.
| LimaBearz wrote:
| This is almost exactly where I find myself right now!
|
| I've spent a year and half building out something that i can see
| bringing value and enjoyment to a wide swath of people.
|
| I just flail hard at the thought of putting myself out there to
| market it. My personal problem though is "its not good enough
| yet" and I just stop. A lot of advice here says "its just not for
| you" but I dont entirely believe that.
|
| I've enjoyed creation, autonomy, and the freedom to define my
| path. There was to be a _way_ to get out of your own way...
| sigmaprimus wrote:
| The dream is free, but the hustle is sold separately.
|
| I can't tell you how many things I tried and failed. It really
| doesn't matter if it's a start up or not either, plenty of people
| put everything into new jobs including moving and failing sucks
| just as much.
|
| I finally figured out how to succeed but it was a difficult and
| deeply personal struggle that took a long time.
|
| There are still times I just want to pack it all in and give up.
|
| Infact I just had a meltdown a month or so ago and almost sold
| off everything. I think it's a part of my personality to never be
| completely satisfied.
|
| Lastly I chuckled a bit when I read about him feeling bad about
| his girlfriend, at least he still has one! He should be thankful
| that she stuck around and should show her the appreciation she
| deserves for supporting him.
| phs318u wrote:
| The regret you feel having lost a year would probably pale in
| comparison to the lifelong regret at not having tried to achieve
| your dream.
|
| There's plenty more positives you can take from this experience.
|
| 1. You learned how crippling your social anxiety can be (perhaps
| you already knew?), so maybe you can take some steps to work on
| that.
|
| 2. The door of indie developer is now firmly closed, which means
| you can explore new possibilities (whatever they may be), with
| wholehearted commitment not distracted by the siren's call.
|
| 3. You learned just how supportive your partner is. They stuck
| with you and are still with you. That's gotta be a good thing
| right?
| vmception wrote:
| Is that really a silver lining? This is just a cautionary tale
| to everyone that even a story of redemption is not fulfillable
| and you always have to live with that.
| jacekm wrote:
| Exactly. "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed
| by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do".
| allenu wrote:
| I think these types of posts are important to read, to contrast
| with the success stories we typical see online. Read enough
| success stories and you start to believe that success is a given
| if you just work hard enough.
|
| I'm reminded of the chapter on Stardew Valley in the book Blood,
| Sweat, and Pixels. That story is also about a developer who
| worked on a solo project, years, however, and who brought in no
| income while his girlfriend worked to support both of them.
| Obviously that one has a much happier ending. (I will say one
| huge difference is that from early on, it was clear that there
| was a fanatic user base just waiting for the game to be
| released.)
| fphhotchips wrote:
| Coming up with good ideas is hard. Executing on them is hard.
| Marketing and selling the end product is hard. The same person
| being able to do all three is damn near impossible. That's why
| you need a co-founder.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2020-11-15 23:00 UTC)