[HN Gopher] Black Screen After MacBook Pro Update to macOS Big Sur
___________________________________________________________________
Black Screen After MacBook Pro Update to macOS Big Sur
Author : jchook
Score : 268 points
Date : 2020-11-16 15:23 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (discussions.apple.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (discussions.apple.com)
| scaglio wrote:
| Wow, I have a late 2013 MBP... If I'd read this before, I
| wouldn't upgraded. I think I was very lucky, no issues with Big
| Sur for now.
| bob33212 wrote:
| I had a failure to boot on a MBP 2019 after Big Sur upgrade. I
| disconnected my ethernet and hdmi adapers and it booted. It gave
| me a message about kernel modules being disabled.
| Gys wrote:
| As discussed elsewhere on HN already, this is about the 2013 and
| 2014 models.
| chorsestudios wrote:
| I experienced a black screen on my 2017 MBP. Might be a
| different issue than the bricking mentioned yesterday. All my
| apps were still running. Launchpad and mission control
| functioned but brought me back to the black screen if I tried
| to launch an app. I got out of it by using mission control to
| open a second desktop environment, then re-opening the original
| desktop. After restarting I have not experienced the issue
| since.
| floatingatoll wrote:
| Yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25102026
| sambeau wrote:
| I've got a 2013, haven't upgraded to Big Sur and I have
| recently started having these issues--black screen, cursor
| visible.
|
| Is it maybe the last Safari update?
| vorpalhex wrote:
| ..is that supposed to be make it any better? An OS update
| shouldn't kill my laptop, regardless of how old my laptop is.
| At most just don't let the update roll to laptops that are too
| old.
| chaostheory wrote:
| In the past, doesn't Apple just EOL computers past 5 years of
| age? imo this is why Apple historically "just works".
| Compared to MS's strategy of supporting every hardware
| variation and configuration under the sun, Apple just ends
| support for anything that doesn't conform to the new
| paradigm. I'm not keen on having to spend $2000 every 5
| years, but it makes sense.
| gumby wrote:
| Seven years is required by California and I believe Apple
| uses that limit as a floor for all US support. They have
| also occasionally shipped security updates for even older
| hardware.
|
| I don't like using Windows but I admire MS's commitment to
| back compatibility. I know it adds a tremendous amount of
| work and makes some vulnerabilities very difficult or
| impossible to address.
|
| TBF I don't believe MS can or does ship firmware updates
| for any hardware other than their own. So they are less
| likely to suffer this particular failure.
| chaostheory wrote:
| > Seven years is required by California and I believe
| Apple uses that limit as a floor for all US support.
|
| Ah, that's why they changed it from 5
|
| > They have also occasionally shipped security updates
| for even older hardware.
|
| Yes, only security updates
|
| > I don't like using Windows but I admire MS's commitment
| to back compatibility. I know it adds a tremendous amount
| of work and makes some vulnerabilities very difficult or
| impossible to address.
|
| Yes, but there's a price for backwards compatibility. It
| makes the goal of "it just works" near insurmountable.
|
| I'm not saying what MS or Apple is doing either is good
| or bad. I'm just explaining the pros and cons of both
| approaches. There's no wrong choice. You just need to be
| aware of the pros and cons before making a commitment on
| your choice. Dropping support for old stuff has been
| Apple's MO for decades now, while it feels to be the
| opposite for Microsoft
| anamexis wrote:
| I don't think they suggested it makes it any better.
| bayindirh wrote:
| It's an anomaly, not all 2013-2014 macs experience this. Mine
| is fine.
|
| It doesn't make any better but, there's nothing sinister
| about it.
| oneplane wrote:
| It's also possible that this is related to previous UEFI
| updates; there was an issue where those would be pushed via
| the same update paths are OS and app updates, but sometimes
| they would time out and not get installed; and then never
| get tried again. Not sure on what models this happens, but
| if that is the case we could be dealing with an issue
| related to different starting versions of the firmware
| during the update. Interesting to say the least.
| boogies wrote:
| Exactly, I thought it was a great example of what a dumpster
| fire Windows 10 and its updates are that Microsoft has
| blocked them from its Surface devices. I can't believe the
| corporation that's supposed to be so great at integration
| between their custom hardware and OSs built just for it
| managed to get it worse than MS and MSW10.
| ARandomerDude wrote:
| Honestly, I doubt most people at Apple would disagree with
| you. Bugs happen. I'm not saying it's good, it sounds like
| they need to improve testing and QA, make it right for their
| users, etc. But I'd be surprised if anyone in a meeting at
| Apple (seriously) said "let's black-screen-of-death the
| 2013/2014 models."
| kordlessagain wrote:
| > I'd be surprised if anyone in a meeting at Apple
| (seriously) said "let's black-screen-of-death the 2013/2014
| models.
|
| Nah, dude, they are in there saying "let's make more bags
| of money", which is exactly why software continues to suck
| at an accelerated rate. None of it is reliable long term
| and it changes so fast users can't keep up, other than
| having to shell out more and more money to stay in the game
| of usable software.
|
| A few days ago I woke up and my Sonos won't respond with
| Alexa. The software got updated and now they expect me to
| jump through a bunch of hoops (including logging out of
| Amazon on my devices) to get it back, but I'm not.
| rileymat2 wrote:
| It is never that straightforward. It typically is a
| decision to deprioritize testing of some things.
| lallysingh wrote:
| Testing and doc quality seem deprioritizedfor macOS. This
| is not good.
| xmprt wrote:
| Was doc quality ever a priority for Apple?
| macintux wrote:
| Yes.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_Macintosh
| rorykoehler wrote:
| A company as rich as Apple should be able to QA their
| full supported product range without compromise.
| chungus_khan wrote:
| They should be able to. It would be easy. But it is
| faster and cheaper not to, and companies are not single
| omniscient monoliths. Each department has their own
| targets, quotas, and deadlines, and while I doubt anyone
| at the top of Apple said anything along the lines of
| "ignore these devices", the ball was dropped somewhere in
| the chain of command, and the fact that nobody picked it
| up (along with experiences with past Apple updates)
| suggests to me that QA is much lower priority at Apple
| than some other places.
| floatingatoll wrote:
| The prior conversation _does_ have information (such as which
| precise board is impacted) in it that satisfy the technical
| curiosity aspect, and it 's possible since I last checked
| someone found a solution (probably not). HN's front page
| isn't a great way to seek emotional support on technical
| issues, though -- for example, a subset of the community is
| guaranteed to tell you "switch away from Apple" rather than
| offer interesting or useful replies.
| donohoe wrote:
| With millions of devices this is bound to happen. I'm sure there
| are a few with every big update at such a large scale.
|
| It sucks, but it happens. Question is how this gets resolved by
| Apple.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > Question is how this gets resolved by Apple
|
| Old Apple would just replace the machines if there was no easy
| fix. Warranty or not. Not sure if new Apple is still that way.
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| I'm really struggling to update my Mac for any reason other than
| being forced to (looking at you XCode and Developer tool chain).
|
| When these "major" releases risk completely breaking my laptop, I
| see zero incentive to update. I read through the release material
| and find absolutely nothing compelling. Apple seem stubbornly
| intent to celebrate these releases as huge step forward. Yet, the
| feature set is barely noteworthy.
|
| ----
|
| OSX Release Starter Pack
|
| * "Bold New Design" - we tweaked the colors and made some things
| round.
|
| * "Refreshed X" or "Powerful X" - we took something and changed
| it for the sake of marketing
|
| * List of Safari Updates - Just, why? Why is that attached to an
| OS release?
|
| * A bunch of other apps that are apparently only releasable with
| a new OS version. In particular, messages will take up 20%+ of
| the release content to essentially highlight the ability to put
| emojis and faces on everything.
|
| ----
|
| I've definitely gone from "I'll buy a mac because it's a mac" to
| "Maybe my next machine will be Windows. It's cheaper, more
| reliable, and just works"
| anoncow wrote:
| Last year, the Catalina beta broke my motherboard (it corrupted
| the SMC and my system would only boot into a blinking folder
| icon). I tried the Big Sur beta this year and it killed the
| keyboard and trackpad (can still use the power button on the
| keyboard). I am laying off on new OS releases from now on.
| ValentineC wrote:
| > _I 've definitely gone from "I'll buy a mac because it's a
| mac" to "Maybe my next machine will be Windows. It's cheaper,
| more reliable, and just works"_
|
| I'm still on Mojave on my 2013 MacBook Pro.
|
| The main reason I'd still consider a Mac for my next machine is
| because there's no other manufacturer that seems to take their
| trackpads seriously.
|
| Why is there no real competition for Apple's trackpads?
| boogies wrote:
| There are efforts to make libinput compete, but maybe a
| majority of GNU users just don't care because keyboard-
| centric workflows (using tiling WMs, etc. so you never have
| to leave the home row) just feel so much more efficient and
| ergonomic.
| davidwparker wrote:
| It's not quite there, but I find my Lenovo trackpad to be
| quite excellent. Probably within 5% of Apple's, which is good
| enough for me.
| weystrom wrote:
| Which Lenovo? The trackpad on my t480 is subpar to say the
| least.
| puranjay wrote:
| Which Lenovo are you using? I have an older Ideapad (circa
| 2017) and a new 2020 Thinkpad and the trackpads on the two
| are uniformly awful
| tomp wrote:
| I've been happily using Microsoft Surface Go for the past 6
| months. No complaints (about the hardware - software is
| another issue, though TBH what I miss the most is a good
| command line & package manager).
| dthul wrote:
| Same for me, the trackpad is the main reason I don't want to
| switch away from Macbooks. It's just unreasonably good. I
| fear that the amount of software and hardware integration
| required to get to this level is so high the we will not see
| it anywhere else anytime soon. But I'd like to be wrong.
| bleepblorp wrote:
| 'It just works' is not a phrase I've ever seen applied to the
| Windows 10 update process before.
|
| While bricking updates for Windows are rare, the most infamous
| Windows update bug deleted all user data.
|
| If you want stability, desktop Linux is now the best out of a
| bad set of options. If you need more software support, run
| Windows in a VM where it can't destroy anything important.
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| I used that phrase a bit-in jest.
|
| That being said, Windows updates have a bunch of minor
| issues, but rarely result in these machine breaking issues
| that OSX has.
| burnte wrote:
| I'm skipping Big Sur for at least a while. I only have a
| MacBook Pro 13 that I bought earlier this year when they came
| out with the KB refresh, Intel based. I have it because OSX is
| fine, but has a great Unix under it, and I can run VMware if I
| need real Linux or Windows. It's a great tool, I'm in IT.
| They're durable, solid, and work great. But that Dell XPS is
| really tempting. My desktops are windows.
| rubicon33 wrote:
| Imagine being a mobile developer. Unless you develop
| exclusively for Android, you're FORCED to own an iOS device.
|
| I'm seriously considering changing my daily driver to a Linux
| machine, and getting a mac mini strictly for running iOS
| builds.
|
| Would need to do some work to kick off a build from the Linux
| machine which deploys the app to the iOS device, but it should
| totally be possible with xcodebuild command line tool...
|
| I think the general workflow would be:
|
| 1) Develop on the Linux machine in Flutter or React Native. 2)
| Primary day-to-day / hour-to-hour testing device = Pixel. 3)
| When ready to build on iOS device, network request is made to
| the Mac Mini, which then kicks of xcodebuild to deploy the
| build to the device.
|
| Would need some sort of fast file replication tool. And
| debugging would be a chore.
|
| Uhg.
| AsyncAwait wrote:
| This might be worth a read as well[1].
|
| 1 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25104828
| SoSoRoCoCo wrote:
| > I've definitely gone from "I'll buy a mac because it's a mac"
| to "Maybe my next machine will be Windows. It's cheaper, more
| reliable, and just works"
|
| I got bad news for ya: I just bought a new Yoga a month ago and
| it is just as bad if not worse.
|
| * Animated ads in the start menu tiles
|
| * I've had to upgraded and restart almost every other day for 4
| weeks
|
| * there are ads that keep reapparing in the tiles on update
|
| * there are constant popus reminding me to log in to my windows
| account (or problems that I can't log in because I HAVEN'T)
|
| * nVidia ads popping up in the lower-right corner
|
| * MSoft ads popping up in the lower-right corner.
|
| * Also, day one: tried installing some LabView softare and BSOD
| (well, the new pretty color blue they use and the high-res
| warning).
|
| * Starting a new app takes about 30 seconds (I believe it is
| phoning home the way macOS does, not sure).
|
| Win10 now looks and feels like an annoying clickbait website.
| Once macOS includes ads, it'll be an equally appalling UX.
|
| The only respite I get are logging into AWS compute instances
| or my Ubuntu and FreeBSD boxes.
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| Oh, that's really interesting.
|
| I have a W10 that I run as a second machine. Updates are
| annoying (but they don't cross the line of being "terrible"
| for me).
|
| The ads are something that I haven't noticed. I wonder if
| that's manufacturer specific. I know I'm running a clean,
| vanilla install on my setup.
| brundolf wrote:
| Yes, similar to Android, many manufacturers customize their
| Windows installs, and that increasingly means random ads in
| your system UI.
| cutemonster wrote:
| Yes Linux is nice. I installed Linux Mint on a laptop from
| 2011 a week ago, and it worked fine, like a new computer (I
| was a bit surprised)
|
| Plus a maths programming language. No games though
| puranjay wrote:
| You're getting downvoted but these are very legitimate
| issues. I still chose Windows but I was really, really
| tempted to ditch it all when they pulled off that forced Edge
| installation stunt a couple of months ago.
| Kye wrote:
| I haven't had any problems with my new ProBook, but it's also
| Windows 10 Pro. You shouldn't need a $60 upgrade just to be
| respected by your operating system. Microsoft is trying to
| live half in the service model and half in the product model.
| They should drop the distinction and give everyone "pro"
| features, all of which are basic features in any desktop-
| focused Linux install.
| impassionedrule wrote:
| I always see people complaining about updates, but I haven't
| been forced to update for months. Is this some machine-
| specific configuration or is Windows Insiders' update model
| different?
| supernova87a wrote:
| I'm really fed up with people downvoting because they
| disagree with a legitimate opinion being expressed.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _Once macOS includes ads_
|
| Considering that iOS already includes ads, it may not be that
| long.
|
| - Apple Arcade ad right there at the top of the Settings app:
| "Apple Arcade 3 Months Available Free >"
|
| - Very often when I just want to listen to the music I
| purchased, I get a full-screen ad for Apple Music that takes
| about 20 seconds to load, and cannot be dismissed until it
| does.
|
| These two things are enough to get me to move to something
| else, if there was a viable alternative for my workflow.
| There isn't yet, but I'm keeping an eye out.
| spacephysics wrote:
| Don't forget Apple's revocation of an API to access OS level
| request headers (re: Little Snitch).
|
| https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/15/apple-explains-addresses-mac-...
|
| This was Apple's last straw in my book. Yes they're
| backtracking, but this wasn't some extra miscellaneous data
| someone forgot to remove. Further it took a hail storm of PR
| (in the dev world) to push change.
|
| Moving to Linux ecosystem, despite loosing the rather smooth
| Apple ecosystems
| FPGAhacker wrote:
| They are backtracking on the little snitch boondoggle? I
| hadn't heard that.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| They're improving the situation on developer certificate
| revocation checks, but they do still exempt their own apps
| from the app-specific content filter and VPN extensions, so
| you won't be able to block those with Little Snitch or
| similar firewalls.
|
| System-wide VPNs should still tunnel everything, so it's
| not as much of a security disaster as it sounded like, but
| I still don't like that. It's my computer, I should be able
| to firewall whatever I want.
| rsync wrote:
| "System-wide VPNs should still tunnel everything, so it's
| not as much of a security disaster as it sounded like,
| but I still don't like that. It's my computer, I should
| be able to firewall whatever I want."
|
| I always use a "slug"[1] to (re)inforce a VPN.
|
| It's extremely difficult to go around it - certainly not
| by accident ...
|
| [1] http://www.kozubik.com/pub/NetworkSlug/tip.html
| sneak wrote:
| If we're talking about laptops here, this means an
| additional piece of hardware. If you're carrying around
| an additional piece of network filtering hardware, you
| might as well just run the VPN client on that, too.
|
| I'm looking into dual-wifi travel routers that will run
| OpenWRT (and thus give me root) and can do WireGuard at
| reasonable speeds. I've been meaning to do it for iOS
| devices anyway (these things phone home constantly, with
| no way to turn it off) and now it's going to be needed on
| Apple Silicon macs, too.
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| Yep. My 2015 Macbook (personal, not the one I use for coding)
| is still running 10.12.
|
| I don't really want to update it, but am going to have to, as
| it no longer receives security updates from Apple, as you say
| won't run latest XCode, which also homebrew complains about and
| says it can't support my OS, and increasingly software I want
| to install won't cause the OS is too old.
|
| But there are zero features of an OS update i want. I am
| terrified of what's going to happen when I update.
|
| However, i still far prefer MacOS UX to Windows, myself. I just
| a quite fine with it on 10.12.
|
| And my 2015 Macbook is still running _fine_ , by the way, have
| no need of an upgrade for more CPU or RAM or anything like
| that.
| medium_burrito wrote:
| I'm in the exact same boat as you. I have a mid 2014 macbook
| running 10.12.6. It's way better than my work laptop.
|
| The work laptop is a maxed 15" macbook a year or two old, and
| it can barley handle video conferences, let alone bazel
| compilations or debugging in vscode. Keyboard and touchbar
| are a mess as expected. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
|
| I'm going go straight to a Linux/windows desktop, since I'm
| working from home anyways. More ram, cpu and a real modern
| video card is basically what I want, and I won't get that
| with a mac.
| techer wrote:
| I have a late 2013 macbook running 10.14.6 and it's quite
| pleasant.
| plussed_reader wrote:
| When the SSD finally craps out you can get them swapped out
| via 3rd party repair.
| ValentineC wrote:
| Assuming it's an Air or Pro, a better option would be to
| buy any NVMe drive, and an adapter.
|
| Here's a forum thread for more info: https://forums.macrumo
| rs.com/threads/upgrading-2013-2014-mac...
| jtdev wrote:
| Agree with everything with the exception of assuming that
| Windows updates are anything short of a dumpster fire full of
| dumpster fires.
| ohdannyboy wrote:
| Yeah, Windows Update was the main thing that motivated to
| switch to Linux for daily use. Nothing else presented a big
| enough pain point to motivate a full switch -- I was mostly
| happy using Windows and SSHing into Linux to work. I often
| leave my computer on overnight with the expectation I can
| pick up whatever I was doing, but Windows Update would force
| reboot without warning me ahead of time and I'd lose all my
| stuff. Many times I needed to start my computer and do
| something right away, but Update decided it needed the next
| 20 minutes. I remember one particular instance when I needed
| to shut my laptop down to put in my backback (it was pouring
| outside) and get to a class, but when I shut down it went
| into a lengthy update without giving me an option to skip.
|
| On Linux I am rarely if ever compelled to reboot unless I
| upgrade the kernel and want to use specific features like
| virtualization. There's just no going back once you get used
| to this.
| skohan wrote:
| Yes I spend more and more time on Ubuntu and it's actually
| great
| twelfthnight wrote:
| Agreed. Ran into an issue this week where the forced upgrade
| of Edge caused some issues for me[1], but it was impossible
| to run "legacy" Edge because it was updated via Windows
| update. Why should we have any choice of the version of the
| software we're running, right?
|
| [1] I know, I know, why use Edge? Fun fact, Netflix doesn't
| render at higher than 720p on Firefox/Chrome because of DRM
| issues.
| hyperrail wrote:
| You can bring back the old Edge by following these
| instructions: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-
| us/deployedge/microsoft-edge-s...
|
| In short:
|
| 1. Run this command as an administrator: reg add
| hklm\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\EdgeUpdate /v Allowsxs /t
| REG_DWORD /d 1
|
| 2. Download and reinstall the new Edge.
|
| Note that Microsoft has said that old Edge will stop
| getting security updates soon, though I would speculate
| this doesn't actually mean much as the old Edge's engine
| has to remain in Windows for application compatibility.
| vmchale wrote:
| > It's cheaper, more reliable, and just works"
|
| I'm on Linux now. It randomly breaks but so does Mac so I might
| as well have a tiling window manager.
| yoz-y wrote:
| > List of Safari Updates - Just, why? Why is that attached to
| an OS release?
|
| Since a few versions, you can actually get the latest safari on
| the previous OS. So even if safari is the one thing you want
| you don't need the update.
|
| > In particular, messages will take up 20%+ of the release
| content to essentially highlight the ability to put emojis and
| faces on everything.
|
| Messages in particular probably needs the new OS due to
| catalyst updates.
| jeromegv wrote:
| Confirmed, I still get all my Safari updates on Mojave
| (10.14)
| konart wrote:
| >It's cheaper, more reliable, and just works
|
| Selected models maybe. In general- no. Not more reliable, not
| just works.
| Twirrim wrote:
| Just don't update until you have to, or at least give it 3-6
| months to let every other sucker find all the early bugs for
| you. Same goes with any operating system, not just OSX. You
| just don't need the "Oooh shiny".
| bguillet wrote:
| The one compelling thing to me is the smart battery management
| in Big Sur: it won't charge your battery past 80% if you don't
| need it (based on usage patterns) to protect the battery life.
| I'm also excited about the seamless switch between all Apple
| devices for the Airpods Pro, but not everyone owns those
| pram wrote:
| Battery management is in Catalina too JFYI
| eckza wrote:
| macOS 10.13 gang, checking in.
| edwardwatson wrote:
| My 2015 MBP bricked when upgrading to Catalina. Thankfully I
| managed to recover back to High Sierra via Disc Utility/Recovery
| Mode. I upgraded to Mojave and now refuse to upgrade it any
| further. I have an iMac which will be staying on Mojave too.
|
| I worry that this opens me up to security risks, but the reality
| is, upgrading could break it again and force me to replace it
| when the hardware still has plenty of life in it.
| varispeed wrote:
| I wonder if it still sends personal data to Apple even after
| getting bricked? Has anyone checked if the bricked laptop sends
| any traffic?
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| On the day Big Sur came out we got an email from IT saying that
| under no circumstances should any employee install it. I'm glad
| out IT knew about this release's problems so early.
| racl101 wrote:
| I think it's just common sense to wait for the bugs to get
| ironed out of new software when you are working with mission
| critical software and hardware.
|
| As a developer I don't think I'll switch to Big Sur until I
| they stop supporting Mojave (i.e. the version behind Catalina,
| which is the version behind Big Sur).
|
| If it ain't broke don't fix it.
| capableweb wrote:
| Most likely they just applied common sense which goes for any
| release of any major software, don't upgrade on day 1,
| especially in a professional environment where you need the
| equipment to work most of the time.
| Tagbert wrote:
| We also got an email from IT telling us not to update to Big
| Sur, but not because of any specific problem. Our IT department
| blocks all major OS updates for a few months while they do
| post-launch testing.
|
| Big Sur has fewer foundational changes than Catalina did. Most
| the changes are just UI changes (though I think there were some
| changes that affect Audio processing apps).
| classified wrote:
| I don't think they were that prescient. They probably just
| followed what should be standard common sense by now: Never,
| ever, install a new OS on a machine that you can't afford to
| lose that very same day. Always wait for reports from early
| adopters or victims of bushy-tailed curiosity.
| divtiwari wrote:
| 'Bushy-tailed' well that's a new word that TIL, on a lighter
| note. :)
| bob33212 wrote:
| Even if the upgrade was smooth they could end up with a ton
| of support calls asking how to change it back or how to turn
| off Bluetooth.
| racl101 wrote:
| Your diction is outstanding.
| nix23 wrote:
| Why is your IT department allowing personal system-updates and
| need to write emails about it?
| ashtonkem wrote:
| In my experience, this is the standard rule and not a response
| to any specific issue. I've been told not to upgrade work
| machines to new OS releases for damn close to a decade now.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| Interestingly enough, our IT doesn't send out alerts for
| Windows 10 feature updates. I suspect that because so many
| executives use Macs that this is the reason why the alert
| went out.
| ashtonkem wrote:
| I believe there are more tools to manage updates across a
| fleet of Windows machines, so one can flip a switch and
| prevent all the windows laptops in the company from running
| major updates until you're ready.
| MilaM wrote:
| I don't understand why Apple makes it so difficult to ignore
| major OS upgrades at least for some time. Most users would be
| better off waiting at least a couple for a point release of Big
| Sur. Being responsible for a couple of Macs in my family this
| makes me quite angry actually.
| dawnerd wrote:
| What's so hard to ignore? Apart from the little red dot if
| you have settings in your dock and maybe one notice it's not
| like it's nagging you like windows does.
| aeyes wrote:
| If you have auto updates enabled it nags you every day with
| a popup notification window asking to update, exactly the
| same way Windows does it (at least on my machines).
| MilaM wrote:
| I can ignore it no problem. But less proficient users, like
| my mother, will not know or remeber this advice.
|
| What's also (in)convenient is that unrelated security
| updates, like the one for Safari that was released the same
| day as Big Sur, are well hidden UI wise. You have to click
| a small link below the Big Sur upgrade notification to get
| to those important security updates.
| dagmx wrote:
| That's just standard IT policy at most companies. Favour tested
| stability over being on the newest stack.
| heipei wrote:
| Especially when that "stack" is just your operating system.
| Like, what feature does a new OS like Big Sur include that
| was previously denied to you on a previous version of OS X? I
| don't get the eagerness to upgrade, especially after Catalina
| had proven to be somewhat bug-ridden as well.
| vmception wrote:
| Apple often ties their whole pipeline to OS updates for
| developers.
|
| In the past it's been that developing on the latest iPhone
| needed the latest version of Xcode and the latest version
| of Xcode needed the latest version of the OS.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| meh, I upgraded my work mbp on release day and everything works
| completely perfectly, I suspect you'd probably be fine... :}
| justapassenger wrote:
| Apple has a pretty loose approach to backwards compatibility on
| macOS, compared to Microsoft with Windows.
|
| But even with Windows, bugs always happen and goal of IT is to
| keep your system and tools up, not chase after latest hotness.
| If IT allows immediate upgrade to a new OS, they're playing
| with fire and waiting for an upgrade that bricks significant %
| of devices and brings company operations to the halt. Heads
| will roll as a result, especially if that's in a remote work
| setup.
| m3kw9 wrote:
| Had a black screen but cursor would show and spotlight worked but
| showed nothing else. Did a reboot with nvram reset and computer
| worked again
| e40 wrote:
| We have the development kit for the Apple Silicon Mac and we
| can't install the release of Big Sur (11.0.1). Gives
|
| > An error occurred preparing the update.
|
| > Failed to personalize the software update. Please try again.
|
| Very frustrating.
| jchook wrote:
| Hm... There were more informative replies on the Apple support
| thread a bit ago... they got deleted?
| swiftcoder wrote:
| The last time this happened to me, it turned out the update had
| just set the screen brightness to zero. Took me hours to
| diagnose.
| roymurdock wrote:
| Hahahahaha that could totally be the premise of a modern
| Seinfeld/Silicon Valley episode. You're pulling out your
| voltmeter, opening up the laptop, testing your hard drives and
| cables, desoldering and resoldering components, spending hours
| on forums, and finally Kramer walks in and pushes the
| brightness key by instinct to show you a YouTube video, fixing
| your problem immediately
| vcanales wrote:
| I tried upgrading a 2019 iMac with Catalina to BigSur. It failed
| after the black screen with the apple logo and a count down, by
| going to a screen I've never seen before that said something like
| "failed to _apply_ update". If I restarted, then I would land on
| the same countdown screen until it inevitably failed again.
|
| I ended up deleting the hard drive and reinstalling Catalina, but
| the weird thing is that now my 2019 iMac with Catalina plays the
| boot chime, which is the only part of Big Sur that worked for
| me...
| Tsiklon wrote:
| The machine always could, for newer machines they decided to
| mute it for some reason, there's an NVRAM setting, if you want
| to mute the chime again: `sudo nvram StartupMute=%01`
|
| and the reverse: `sudo nvram StartupMute=%00`
| userbinator wrote:
| That's just Apple deciding for the users, like it has always
| been doing. It's funny to see the setting for it is so
| hidden; my PC motherboard has a "POST beep" setting in the
| BIOS setup, which doesn't require a terminal to get to, and
| whose presence is helpfully reminded each time I turn it on
| ("press DEL to enter SETUP").
| tpoacher wrote:
| Whereas if they were an innovative company, like microsoft, they
| would have chosen a better colour for their BSOD. Just sayin'. :p
| sib wrote:
| Ahh, brings back memories of this classic post from ~15 years
| ago...
|
| https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/14850/microsoft-an...
|
| 'Major computer resellers such as Compaq, Gateway, and Dell are
| already lining up for premier placement on the new and improved
| BSOD. Ballmer concluded by getting a dig in against the Open
| Source community. "This just goes to show that Microsoft
| continues to innovate at a much faster pace than open source. I
| have yet to see any evidence that Linux even has a BSOD, let
| alone a customizable one."'
| lisper wrote:
| At least the acronym still applies, so there's that.
| eddhead wrote:
| Cost of Relevance
|
| The Mac was a novelty, a niche prpduct a decade or two ago to
| serve just a handful of use cases until it was thrust into
| relevance because of Windows' failings in the cloud development
| and transition era.
|
| Now that it's everywhere, and the complexity of deployments and
| permutations of Mac's usage ever increasing they're stumbling
| just as badly as Microsoft did - perhaps worse, because Windows
| has to deal with orders of magnitude more different hardware and
| software.
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| Why does Apple push new macOS releases via Software Update on Day
| 1?
|
| It should have been on the App Store until 1-2 updates in (so
| enthusiasts can install it) and pushed to Software Update after
| then so issues are ironed out.
| lisnake wrote:
| Well, they did have a public beta stage for several months,
| which supposedly should have caught bugs like this one before
| general release
| cactus2093 wrote:
| It doesn't auto install or show up as a badge notification
| though, so you kind of have to go looking to find it.
|
| The exception though is that once a patch update for your
| current OS is available, it gets hidden by the Big Sur upgrade
| prompt, and you have to click into the non-obvious "more info"
| link to find that. Which seems like a bad UI choice, if you're
| going to force me into the upgrade then do it, but if you're
| going to let it be lighter touch then don't have it block out
| the other updates like that.
| [deleted]
| rv-de wrote:
| My T480 with LM20 is objectively the better workstation than my
| company MBP2019 - but at least it's 3 times as expensive and
| looks very shiny.
| owenwil wrote:
| I had this happen to me on a late 2019 MacBook Pro as well, but
| dramatically worse: the machine was totally unresponsive, no
| chimes, no power up, nothing. I tried everything, including the
| usual PRAM clear and whatever else, but Apple suggested a
| replacement machine.
|
| Since I can't work because I'm waiting for the replacement, I
| started tinkering to see what I could do and it turns out that
| the T2 security chip was totally nuked - the weird version of iOS
| it runs (BridgeOS) was broken/missing, which means the hardware
| won't even power on, POST, or light up the screen to tell you.
| Without the T2, you don't have a computer anymore, basically.
|
| Turns out that this chip _can_ be flashed by using a specific set
| of incantations: https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/apple-
| configurator-2/a...
|
| So, here's what I had to do:
|
| 1. You need another Mac running the exact same build of the OS on
| the dead machine. I begrudgingly needed to update my Mac Mini to
| Big Sur to get it to work.
|
| 2. Plug a USB-C cable into the front left port of your dead
| MacBook, fire up Apple configurator on the functional machine and
| click "Revive."
|
| 3. Wait, hope it works.... but there's no confirmation so you
| just have to wait a long time and hope it was long enough, then
| hold the power button for 30 seconds to see if it'll turn on.
|
| 4. If that doesn't work (it didn't), then you should run
| "restore" which is exactly the same. Wait a long time, hold the
| power button for 30 seconds and hope. Eventually, in my case, it
| powered up into internet recovery, and acted as if it were a new
| Mac. Everything is gone, but it's at least functional as far as I
| can tell.
|
| This will ONLY apply to the T2 models, which are not the ones
| mentioned in the OP, but it seems like a similar issues. These
| steps at least revived my machine, but it was so obscure that
| even Apple support didn't know about this, so ordered a
| replacement. I can't be the only one to have run into this, but
| I'm pretty pissed that I blew two entire days trying to figure
| out what was going on.
|
| More details on my Twitter:
| https://twitter.com/ow/status/1328389544119513089?s=21
| pomian wrote:
| Just out of practical curiosity, how long, about, is: "a long
| time." ? (Minutes, hours, etc.) What great post. Thank-you from
| everyone who may need it.
| owenwil wrote:
| I waited ten minutes and it worked. Felt like a long time
| when it was sitting there blank!
| tacheiordache wrote:
| Im surprised at what lengths people go to sustain their
| attachment to their macs and apple. It used to be it just
| works, i don't have time to tinker. Now you have to get your
| hands dirty for no particular reason other than apple wants to
| revamp everything in order to secure a new milkcow for the next
| generation. Come back to linux!
| wil421 wrote:
| Almost every single laptop I've owned has had an issue at one
| point or another. I've had more windows laptops with weirder
| issues than my Macs. The Mac hardware last longer but I've
| had a 2011 MBP finally die after 6 years.
|
| No chance I'm rolling my dice with Linux on a laptop.
| Touchpad support is funky. I run FreeNAS, Linux, and
| raspberrypi boxes at my house.
| dstick wrote:
| You are spot on. The big advantage Apple had is slowly fading
| away: quality control. First the keyboards, now this.
|
| As a freelance developer, my MacBook Pro is my livelihood.
| It's dependence, great support and MacOS / Linux CLI was it's
| main feature. Now it's gotten to the point where you're
| better off waiting 4 years before buying a new product line
| so the general public beta tested it long enough.
|
| I'm getting a lot of Microsoft in the 90's vibes from Apple
| these days. Anyone else as well?
| jeromenerf wrote:
| Being dependent on one device, as a professional? Backups,
| spares and insurance are not best practices, they are the
| basic cost of doing business. Using the latest version (not
| the security updates of course) of anything on a production
| machine has always been a bad idea.
|
| We need a new razor, something along the lines of "do not
| attribute to FANG marketing what is better explained by
| misplaced expectations".
| jlokier wrote:
| > spares [...] are not best practices, they are the basic
| cost of doing business
|
| I think you overestimate some professional people's
| income (especially if it's sporadic) and underestimate
| their other expenses.
|
| I've known many freelancers who buy a new laptop twice a
| decade _at most_. It will be the single most valuable
| object they own, and may be the result of saving for
| months and careful consideration of what to buy,
| intending it to use it for many years.
|
| A spare good laptop "just in case" is not a realistic
| option for them.
|
| Most of them could buy a second laptop if circumstances
| arise where it's absolutely necessary, but it would be
| hardship. So they wouldn't get one just as a "nice to
| have", a spare laptop lying around doing "nothing".
| Especially if it's going to be outdated by the time you
| have some use for it. Events where you need a spare
| device are quite rare after all.
|
| That might be below "the basic cost" of running a
| sensible business, but for people on median and/or
| sporadic incomes it's a significant cost, only worth
| bearing if and when it becomes necessary.
| pcdoodle wrote:
| At least with microsoft we could compile and exe and have
| it work 20 years later...
| [deleted]
| newsbinator wrote:
| The reason I left Linux was having to spend days on
| incantations to make my sound card or network adapter work.
|
| I got tired of having to figure out what codec incantations I
| needed to make videos play.
|
| Much of the support was snarky "RTFM" or forum postings from
| 2007 about different distros.
|
| Every couple years I try it again when people on HN insist
| it's better now, and within minutes there's a showstopper
| hardware compatibility issue or something.
|
| I'm scheduled to try it again about a year from now.
| vmchale wrote:
| Hardware is still bad, inferior to Windows.
|
| With Catalina, my Mac speakers intermittently stopped
| working though. So it's getting more competitive as Mac
| gets worse.
| binarymax wrote:
| Same. I've been trying to use Ubuntu full time since 2010.
| These days I run a (toy) deep learning rig in my cool
| basement that has Ubuntu. I've gone through 4 (FOUR!)
| different hardware attempts at wifi trying to get higher
| than 1Mbps to the router: 2 different internal cards, and 2
| different external sticks. I spent a good 2 to 3 hours of
| incantations for each of those 4 options. I finally gave up
| and bought a $50 wifi extender that has ethernet out, which
| finally worked and am now getting 5g speeds to the router.
|
| Before that it was an issue with different GPU/CUDA
| binaries causing conflicts and forcing a full reinstall of
| the system at random times when I was swapping conda envs
| for different python stacks.
|
| I really really really want to be able to use Linux full
| time, but I haven't even got to the point of wanting to use
| something like video conference from a linux install, which
| I've heard is a nightmare.
| harha wrote:
| I've gone to using cables wherever I can. Depending on
| the wiring a power line network adaptor might speed up
| things substantially.
|
| That being said, setting up WiFi is a pain, I frequently
| set up raspberry pis with Ubuntu and just can't get it
| right without needing to connect a screen.
| lisnake wrote:
| Managing CUDA install on Windows is a big PITA too
| jlokier wrote:
| I'm a huge Linux fan and used Linux natively on several
| laptops for nearly 20 years.
|
| Even with all that experience and care picking good
| laptops, and even after Ubuntu and Xorg autoconfig made the
| driver situation much better, I found myself having to: Fix
| kernel graphics driver bugs (spans of random pixels
| occasionally drawn on the screen due to something extremely
| subtle deep in the Intel driver), sound driver bugs, and
| being annoyed that nothing worked right with Nvidia on one
| of them (neither Nvidia's driver nor Nouveau worked
| properly), and debugging unreliable suspend.
|
| Now I run Linux in a VM, and that's been perfect for
| userspace development. On a Mac, the four-finger swipe
| switches beautifully between Mac and Linux full-screen
| desktops, as if neither OS is really in charge. It feels
| more like running Xen, two OSes side by side, with Apple-
| quality GUI for switching and organising OSes.
|
| Of course, not so good when the Apple device bricks.
|
| The symptoms people are reporting now are very similar to
| what I saw when upgrading to Catalina - hours stuck on
| "about a minute remaining", many reboots and with what
| looked like glitchy display errors and "starting from
| scratch" progress bars, leading to a worrying feeling it
| was stuck in a reboot cycle or just bricked. I was
| immensely relieved when it eventually finished after hours
| of doing whatever it was doing, as I didn't have a spare
| working computer (all my old Linux laptops have broken :-/)
| And that was after leaving it for nearly a year (I
| installed Catalina this summer), so the problems should
| have been "ironed out" by then.
|
| I'm really glad I haven't follow the system notification's
| prompt to update to Big Sur. From the Catalina experience,
| I suspect I'd be one of the brickage victims, and I can't
| afford that right now.
|
| If it were always possible to restore from backup (as it
| generally is with Linux and Windows) that would be fine,
| I'd take the risk. But when Apple updates go wrong, it can
| be more serious as you can't necessarily boot at all, even
| to restore from backup.
| ianai wrote:
| What virtualization are you using to swipe like that
| between Linux and Mac?
| bayindirh wrote:
| Possibly VMWare Fusion Pro, since I do the same on my
| mac.
|
| Fullscreen the Linux VM, it becomes another desktop. Just
| swipe into it and continue working.
| jlokier wrote:
| VMware Fusion (now changed name to VMware Player).
|
| But I would expect it to work the same for other
| virtualisation software, because that's what MacOS does
| for full-screen apps.
|
| It's nice that the swipe gesture is intercepted by the
| host instead of passed to the guest.
|
| I swipe to full-screen remote desktops too (in this case
| to access another work laptop on my desk via my main
| monitor), it's really nice having them all available this
| way. It's like having a deluxe KVM, which also has a
| zoom-out thumbnail viewer when needed :-)
| Qerub wrote:
| > VMware Fusion (now changed name to VMware Player).
|
| It's still called VMware Fusion but is now available in
| the variants Player and Pro:
| https://www.vmware.com/se/products/fusion/fusion-
| evaluation....
| Qerub wrote:
| I used to work this way too but get fed up with keyboard
| and mouse buttons getting stuck in VMs making them go
| bananas when the system was under load. Really nice
| experience apart from that and the half-broken support
| for Retina displays.
| [deleted]
| addicted wrote:
| With Lenovo, Dell and HP all supporting official Linux
| models, I suspect this should be less of an issue now at
| least if you buy a supported model.
| jlokier wrote:
| There's a pretty strong motivation:
|
| > Since I can't work because I'm waiting for the replacement
|
| There's probably a few tens of thousands of stressed out
| freelancers right now who can't pay their rent this month
| because their only machine just got bricked by the Big Sur
| update (which presents itself via system notifications as if
| it's an ordinary software update, not a major event), and
| they are either stuck far from any Apple service waiting for
| a replacement, or worse, it's out of warranty and they can't
| afford to buy another machine.
| TwoNineA wrote:
| > There's probably a few tens of thousands of stressed out
| freelancers right now who can't pay their rent this month
| because their only machine just got bricked by the Big Sur
| update
|
| I opened my late 2013 MBP, unplugged the IO board's cable,
| rebooted, OS finished upgrading. I left it unplugged for
| now (lost WiFi/BT, HDMI and one USB) not an issue for me,
| was using TB to displayport and gigabit lan adapter
| anyways. System works and reboots fine without IO board
| being plugged in. Ordered a 10$ replacement board from
| eBay.
|
| Do steps 17 and 18 of this:
|
| https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Retina+Dis
| p...
| blazor wrote:
| Wonder if that will be enough to make them consider
| switching away from Apple? Silly question!
| jlokier wrote:
| If they can't afford another machine, then not until the
| current one stops working. Ironically!
|
| But for a lot of developers, their work literally can
| only be done on on Apple devices. You can't develop iOS
| and Mac apps on anything else.
|
| There are a lot of people for whom that is their job,
| including freelancers.
|
| They could switch to a new domain of business, but that's
| a large change with many disadvantages. It's not like
| picking a different laptop just because you fancy a
| change. E.g. for an iOS developer to switch to being an
| Android developer, it's not hard to start but there's a
| lot to learn to be good at it to the same level and bring
| in the same money.
| beagle3 wrote:
| Thats a very weird example. Those developers should know
| better than update on the first week of a new OS on their
| only non-virtualized machine.
|
| I would be surprised if my accountant updates to a new
| version of Excel within 3 days if it coming out, and
| would be very disappointed if as a result he wasn't able
| to prepare my taxes. The situation you described is
| similar - someone who should know better throwing their
| old tools before they know for sure the shiny new one
| will work.
| jlokier wrote:
| The system notifies you about software updates from time
| to time, and you are trained to install them for
| security.
|
| The Big Sur update is notified in the same way. It gives
| the appearance of being just another big software update.
|
| Unlike Windows, Mac OS updates come out more often, about
| once a year for major version, and every couple of months
| for minor version. Despite the marketing fanfare, they
| are not as big a change as say jumping from Windows 7 to
| Windows 10.
|
| Ok, maybe you still want to take care with a new OS. Like
| with Excel three days before filing taxes. (Though when
| do you expect the accountant to upgrade? They are
| _always_ doing someone 's taxes.)
|
| Maybe you do try it in a VM first, and decide you like
| it, it works well for you. Some people try new OS
| versions in a separate partition. You can do that on a
| Mac, just like on a PC. It seems like it ought to be
| safe, because you've kept the old installation on as
| well. Just like on a PC, you can choose which to start up
| using the built-in boot menu.
|
| Being sensible you take a full system backup first.
| Usually, with Apple, a backup is pretty good. You can
| reinstall from a backup provided the system can boot.
| Macs have a reinstaller built in. By analogy with a PC,
| it's more like "imaging" a Windows or Linux system, and
| as if the PC BIOS had built-in tools to restore from a
| backup image.
|
| Following that analogy, the problem here is that Big Sur
| nuked the BIOS! It can't even reboot from external media,
| or the recovery partition. If a Window OS upgrade did
| that we'd not only be unhappy, we would also be rather
| surprised that we can't boot an external USB key to
| recover.
| jnwatson wrote:
| I'm not a huge Apple fan at this point, but implying that
| other platforms don't have this problem is somewhat
| disingenuous.
|
| Updates brick device across many platforms all the times.
| I've had plenty of PCs break from updates.
|
| That you can even recover from a T2 failure at all
| without opening it up is quite nice. Perhaps my standards
| are low.
| at-fates-hands wrote:
| > Updates brick device across many platforms all the
| times.
|
| A few weeks ago, I fired up Adobe Photoshop from their CC
| platform. No go, something, something about an intel
| compatibility.
|
| Do online and start googling the error I was getting.
|
| Seems the newest version determined that my quad core
| Xeon processors didn't support SSE 4.2 or later. A LOT of
| people were fuming online that in order to run the latest
| version, they would have to get a new PC or laptop with a
| new processor that was now required for the newest
| version.
|
| The current solution for many is to now install an
| earlier version until they figure out what they want to
| do. Ironically, I still run a lot of stuff on my old Mac
| Mini so I found out that I can run the most recent
| version of Photoshop on there instead.
|
| I haven't checked into the issue for a week or so. I'm
| still not sure if anybody came up with a solid solution
| without having to buy new equipment.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| We shouldn't applaud that it turned out to be possible to
| fix this thing after grueling effort (and the company
| trying to push purchasing a replacement) when the
| security chip was an unnecessary user-hostile blight in
| the first place.
| Kwpolska wrote:
| Can a Windows update brick a PC? I'm pretty sure it
| can't, because it does not update the firmware of the
| main system controller. You might end up with an
| unbootable copy of Windows if you're unlucky, but it's
| fairly easy to fix it with install media or a recovery
| partition, and you might be able to recover any data your
| backups don't cover (you make backups, right?). If you
| don't have any install/live media for Windows or Linux,
| it's trivial to make those with any working computer
| (Linux, Windows, macOS), including a friend's. But if a
| macOS update nukes your T2 chip's firmware, you need
| access to another Mac and the appropriate cables.
| SahAssar wrote:
| Not many other general purpose computers require another
| computer to fix.
|
| Most windows and linux machines can be reinstalled with a
| USB stick. If you don't have that USB stick they can
| usually be written with any macos, windows or linux
| machine.
|
| Updates do not usually brick machines. I'm guessing your
| PCs that broke did not require another PC running the
| exact same windows version to fix? And I'm guessing that
| if those PCs were made within the last 5-10 years you
| could restore from recovery and not need another device?
| unethical_ban wrote:
| You're saying people should avoid tinkering by going from
| Apple to "Linux", let's assume a desktop, well documented OS
| with binary package management like Fedora or Ubuntu.
|
| First, this isn't happening to all updates. Second, On a
| daily basis, Apple stores/support are widely available and
| with pretty good warranty coverage. Third, the quality of
| hardware/user experience _for the average, non-technical
| computer user_ is on a different plane of existence when
| comparing Apple to non-apple laptops. Screen resolution and
| the companion software support, battery life, weight, and
| trackpad are completely unmatched in the non-apple world.
|
| I play games and have used Windows, BSD and Ubuntu as my main
| drivers at different times over the past 20 years. My
| Thinkpad is currently on Ubuntu 20.04. My career is
| IT/Infosec.
|
| I don't even _use_ my laptop most days, but I 'm tempted by
| an M1 air because the UX and value is amazing.
| weystrom wrote:
| Or just use Windows with WSL2/Linux VM.
| rorykoehler wrote:
| My workflows are all Mac centric. Now I'm also hooked on
| using iPad as second display via sidecar.i could solve these
| issues via Linux and I am researching Linux distros by
| installing on my old mac but nothing quite compares to the
| Mac ecosystem UX. I solve this particular problem by only
| ever updating my os long after the problems have been ironed
| out. Apple are notorius for beta testing on users and frankly
| I think it's crazy to update your main machine this early in
| the cycle.
| luka-birsa wrote:
| Try Windows - it's the best interface to experience Linux
| from :D.
| arrty88 wrote:
| > I solve this particular problem by only ever updating my
| os long after the problems have been ironed out. Apple are
| notorius for beta testing on users and frankly I think it's
| crazy to update your main machine this early in the cycle.
|
| Exactly. Mac has become windows in this sense. Updates
| aren't safe and users must stay a few versions behind.
| rorykoehler wrote:
| I've been using Mac since 15 years and it's always been
| this way.
| addicted wrote:
| With OSX you always updated your OS with 10.x.1 if you
| wanted it to work regularly.
|
| But in the pre iOSification days a new 10.x version would
| come out every few years, so the 10.x.1 version would
| come out a few months later with major bugs ironed out.
| You waited a few months, and then safely enjoyed 10.x.x
| updates for another 2-3 years.
|
| With the annual release, your 10.x version comes out
| every year, the 10.x.1 version a few months later but
| it's hardly as well tested, and you're probably better
| off waiting for 10.x.2 and then by the time that's done,
| Apple is already preparing you for 10.x+1.
| AdamN wrote:
| Most people on this list have done similar shenanigans on
| Windows and Linux too. No OS/manufacturer comes without these
| kinds of edgecases.
| jasonsync wrote:
| I surprised myself last week!
|
| When one of my older Macs became unresponsive due to that
| Apple network failure problem issue, I spent countless hours
| running various system cleaner utilities, uninstalling apps,
| and blindly running obscure terminal commands from Stack
| Overflow, even though my own initial console log analysis
| (and instincts) had more-or-less confirmed that it was an
| issue with trustd network connection timeouts to Apple's own
| servers.
|
| Fool on me. This coupled with having to get my 2019 Macbook
| Air keyboard replaced twice (due to sticky keys) has me
| thinking out loud about moving away from Apple.
|
| Good coverage of the trustd issue:
| https://tidbits.com/2020/11/13/apple-network-failure-
| destroy...
| st1x7 wrote:
| Is Linux really that easy to recommend these days? I'm
| genuinely asking, not sure what the current state is.
|
| My impression is that over the past few years Linux has
| gotten a bit better at just working out of the box, Mac would
| be good if you never upgrade the OS (but if you do upgrade,
| you're rolling the dice on a major disaster) and Windows is
| pretty much where it was (and still not a great experience
| for developers). Basically, the 3 platforms seem a lot closer
| to each other than they used to be.
| DarkmSparks wrote:
| As a Mac and Linux guy (no more winnndddooows yay!) My
| Linux machine is my rock, and has been for about 10 years
| and 3 or 4 hardware upgrades now.
|
| MacOS is really nice, almost as good as Linux and great for
| those things like photo shop files or those unfortunate
| days there is no choice but to use MS office.
|
| The only thing I miss about windows since switching my
| second machine to MacOS is how angry windows would make me
| every time I tried to do something on it.
| jlokier wrote:
| Several laptop manufacturers officially support Linux these
| days, even providing it ready-installed.
|
| If the manufacturer can supply a working Linux laptop, that
| usually means other distros will run without difficulty on
| it as well.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _Im surprised at what lengths people go to sustain their
| attachment to their macs and apple._
|
| Probably because going to these lengths is rare, and people
| will just service/replace the ocassional problematic machine.
|
| Whereas in Linux land this is much more common, and you're on
| your own commercial support wise (and with friendly forums to
| guide you).
| kache_ wrote:
| At least with Linux you can actually fix it
| coldtea wrote:
| If you know how, have time, don't have an opportunity
| cost/better things....
| 10000truths wrote:
| There's also a pretty big opportunity/time/effort cost to
| contacting Apple support, describing your problem,
| fighting with them over whether the defect is covered
| under warranty, actually packaging the thing and shipping
| it to them, waiting for the fix/replacement, hoping the
| replacement isn't similarly screwed up, and setting up
| all your programs and files again when they 'fix' the
| problem by wiping your machine or giving you a new one.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| That's correct, but as a parent said, this kind of issue
| is very rare. I can't actually remember another mac os
| upgrade actually bricking machines. I may be wrong,
| though.
|
| What's way more common is random hardware failures,
| unrelated to the OS. I've never had to deal with apple
| support and hope I'll never have to, but HP enterprise
| support isn't frictionless either. A colleague of mine
| had a swollen battery, which wasn't user replaceable
| (guess not only Apple has bright ideas). He called up the
| support, which went relatively fine but in the end he had
| to send the computer in for repairs for two weeks and was
| advised to save his data as the machine would be wiped.
| Luckily removing the SSD was possible and didn't void the
| warranty...
| Symbiote wrote:
| In my experience, "Not user replaceable" on enterprise
| laptops means a few normal screws release the back cover
| to get access to the battery.
|
| The next business day, on-site support presumably costs
| extra. (We have it for servers, but I don't deal with
| laptops until they're out of warranty.)
| medium_burrito wrote:
| And if I had endless time, presumably I could reach
| englightenment, with seems like a better use of my time.
| owenwil wrote:
| I wouldn't call dealing with this sort of thing on every
| other update rare.
| acdha wrote:
| They don't happen on every other update, or even every
| tenth update. You're hearing from a small self-selected
| population of users who had undiagnosed hardware issues,
| dodgy power, hacked up system config, etc. and
| generalizing it to the vast majority of users who clicked
| install and resumed working 20 minutes later.
| asutekku wrote:
| It works 99% of the time and things like this are rare
| occurences. My experience with linux (Debian & Centos) has
| been less than stellar.
| ag56 wrote:
| That is unfair. Apple has a billion devices in active use so
| there are bound to be the occasional issue. And even with
| those issues it is still a _far_ better experience than
| either Linux or Windows.
| acomjean wrote:
| Apple has like 20-30 models, so testing should be easier.
| Also you pay a premium for apple hardware, so there is the
| expectation that it just works.
| luka-birsa wrote:
| This is untrue. As somebody that just defected from OSX to
| Windows I can tell you that you're missing out. Windows
| became a more stable and usable PC where everything just
| works. My 2 year old top of the line MBP was replaced by a
| 3 year old Dell XPS 13 after 10 years of OSX and I hate to
| break it to you, but Windows changed.
|
| I replaced the MBP since the I had to replace the thinnest
| keyboard in the world, but I had problems with BT, WiFi,
| crashes, random external monitor glitches, no support for
| two external monitors via TB 3.0 (look it up, same hardware
| works under windows!!). Ask my diehard OSX fan coworker
| that just had to upgrade OSX just to get wifi working at
| home. I stayed for Windows since my MBP stopped working a
| week after I got the keyboard replaced and to be honest I
| really can't bother to move back. Everything just works
| here.
|
| OSX has left the domain of the power user and has been
| relegated to into the domain of the consumer user that
| likes the Apple marketing.
|
| I am monitoring the situation with ARM CPUS closely and
| that would be a motivation to switch back, but right now it
| feels my next computer upgrade will be windows based high
| end laptop. Better OS and better price performance are hard
| to argue with.
|
| PS: If you're a developer and you're still clinging to OSX,
| try it - the whole experience is next level (compared to
| the whole brew ecosystem). Download WSL for windows, get
| Ubuntu from windows store and use the Windows Terminal to
| experience native Ubuntu. Hell if you're using VS Code, all
| you need to do is type "code ." from Ubuntu to open VS Code
| in Windows and develop in native Linux.
| pyr0hu wrote:
| Tried WSL2 for webdev, had high expectations for it, but
| I got disappointed. Docker support is bad and the whole
| subsystem feels sluggish. All on latest windows build, on
| a Samsung 970 ssd. I get it, Windows got better i agree,
| but it's miles away from a Unix experience
| garethrowlands wrote:
| Was there anything in particular that was bad about
| Docker? Was it network access? What was sluggish - disk
| access across the Windows/Linux divide? I've just tried
| WSL2 out for a few minutes on a new Dell XPS and it
| seemed kinda neat. Clearly I've not had time to run into
| problems.
| hackshack wrote:
| This. Mac user since 1991. In 2016, I needed a VR
| development box with a fast GPU, so I supplemented the
| 27" iMac on my desk with a homebuilt PC and 27" 4K
| monitor. That little PC has earned its keep! I use the PC
| about 95% of the time. The iMac is now my Pixelmator and
| OmniOutliner appliance, and backup OBS video capture
| device.
|
| Win10's last 2 years of "builds" are very good. It still
| rots like regular Windows, but I got 3.5 years of heavy
| use before reinstalling it. Main apps are Unity, Visual
| Studio 2017, and some hardware design stuff (SOLIDWORKS,
| KiCad, SEGGER). It feels so liberating to have all my
| niche apps on the PC without having to virtualize.
|
| User experience on Windows is a little jankier, but the
| utility of the niche apps makes up for it. I miss
| AirDrop. If I were to advise Microsoft on one thing: fix
| the Control Panel situation in Win10. It's like layers of
| bad makeup.
|
| Windows also restores much worse than macOS. I miss Time
| Machine. I purchased a tool called Macrium Reflect which
| gets me close enough, and actually can restore a bootable
| system.
| bayindirh wrote:
| As a regular mac and Linux user (I use Linux 80% of the
| time), I can clearly say it's not about sustaining an
| attachment.
|
| If I had time, I'd do the same. I'm in this career because I
| wondered how these things work in the first place. Just
| because Windows or macOS are closed systems they're not less
| interesting. They're harder to understand and, sometimes
| challenge calls.
|
| Linux is nice, way better when compared to 15 years ago but,
| it's not perfect. I'm going to buy a new PC in 12 months and
| I'd need to make some research about hardware compatibility
| and performance. Especially on the motherboard side. I have
| to make sure that it contains no funny devices or memory
| mappings so, I can't use an on-board peripheral until someone
| writes a quirk just for that.
|
| OTOH, every platform has its nice applications. While
| Darktable is a very nice photo editor and Digikam is a
| perfect DAM, CameraBag or OmniGraffle doesn't work on Linux.
| Similarly, many basic functions of KDE's Dolphin (Protocol
| support, embedded git, etc.) is not present on mac. Similarly
| my IDE of choice (Eclipse) wasn't working well on macs until
| Big Sur.
|
| However, while developing applications, Apple's design
| decisions and inner workings provide some nice insight and
| inspiration for better experiences and more sensible
| defaults.
|
| Using diverse set of platforms is mind opening for me. It's
| important to understand the trade-offs of every one and, all
| of them are perfect in their own regard.
|
| However, at the end of the day, I'm a FOSS lover and you
| can't pry my Linux systems from my cold dead hands. macOS on
| the other hand is just a nice closed system to develop open
| source stuff for me.
| Qerub wrote:
| > I'm going to buy a new PC in 12 months and I'd need to
| make some research about hardware compatibility and
| performance. Especially on the motherboard side. I have to
| make sure that it contains no funny devices or memory
| mappings so, I can't use an on-board peripheral until
| someone writes a quirk just for that.
|
| There are certified/tested Linux computers available from
| vendors like HP and Dell. Just buy one of them instead of
| wasting time researching hardware compatibility only for it
| to break later with no one to complain to. Some links:
|
| HP Linux Hardware Matrix:
| https://h20195.www2.hp.com/v2/getpdf.aspx/4AA7-6280ENW.pdf
| Dell Linux Workstations and Laptops:
| https://www.dell.com/en-
| us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystem... Ubuntu Desktop
| Certified Hardware:
| https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop Red Hat Certified
| Workstations (incl. Laptops):
| https://catalog.redhat.com/hardware/workstations/search
| bayindirh wrote:
| Thanks for your answer. I'm aware of these systems (my
| office workstation is an EliteDesk) however, these
| systems are not suitable for me for various reasons.
|
| I make staggered updates and these systems are not very
| receptive for that. I wouldn't want to change my case
| just to upgrade the motherboard and the CPU. Also, I'm
| not sure that a small EliteDesk tower can accommodate all
| my disks (2HDDs plus 2SSDs) neither space, nor power-
| wise. I also use a PCIe sound card (for sound quality
| reasons) which needs a PSU connection via floppy
| connector.
|
| At the end of the day, these systems are very nice as-is,
| but I need to get them as a package and they're not very
| flexible. My desktop usage scenario and update path is
| not very suitable for that.
| coldpie wrote:
| > Linux is nice, way better when compared to 15 years ago
| but, it's not perfect. I'm going to buy a new PC in 12
| months and I'd need to make some research about hardware
| compatibility and performance. Especially on the
| motherboard side.
|
| I've been using Linux exclusively since 2007 and I've never
| had any motherboard compatibility issues. I think the only
| thing that may be shaky is wifi, but even that's pretty
| settled these days now that the hardware is more or less
| standardized. I'm not doubting your experience, just found
| that an odd thing to single out.
| bayindirh wrote:
| By 2007, most of the nasty stuff has sorted out (I met
| with Linux in 1998, started to use it full time by 2003).
|
| Some things I have experienced (not all hardware related
| but, notable and crippling): - Additional
| SATA controllers had intermittent connectivity issues
| with Samsung SpinPoint drives - Same additional
| SATA controllers' 2 port models were fine but, same
| chip's 4 port model was not recognized at all. -
| Intel Speedstep was wonky. - CPUFreqd needed hand
| tuned scaling profiles for good on-demand scaling.
| - Fedora 4 mysteriously tried to redirect all my internal
| X11 comm via my physical Ethernet card. Needed to add an
| additional card as a primary network interface to solve
| desktop latency problems. - One of my systems was
| unable to boot any OS installed on the non-GRUB drive.
| GRUB was unable to fire anything on that disk (regardless
| of OS brand, model and make) - My latest system's
| on board Wi-Fi and BT adapter was unusable for 2 years.
| owenwil wrote:
| Trust me, I don't usually care and would have given up - I
| think it was way too difficult to fix this. I've written
| extensively about switching from macOS to Windows and much
| prefer using a PC personally: https://char.gd/blog/2019/the-
| state-of-switching-to-windows-...
|
| In this case, however, my job requires I use the Mac issued
| to me so y'know, it was in my interest to get it going again
| while I waited for a replacement.
| bentcorner wrote:
| I use a Windows PC and need to use a Mac occasionally for
| my work. I keep delaying updates on the Mac because I'm
| terrified of it not coming back up, and I don't know a ton
| about MacOS. It doesn't help that the Mac is currently
| remote and I'm working from home.
| thealienthing wrote:
| You're a real trooper to go through this.
| bobbylarrybobby wrote:
| This part of that support article is pretty damning:
|
| WARNING: Back up your data before you restore the firmware on
| your Mac. When you restore the firmware on a Mac that contains
| an Apple T2 Security Chip, you are restoring the firmware on
| the T2 chip and on any volumes on your internal SSD storage.
| When this process is complete, any data on any SSD volumes is
| unrecoverable.
|
| So this means that a firmware issue can lead to total data
| loss? Of course you should always have a backup, but
| nevertheless...
| owenwil wrote:
| The ironic thing about that suggestion is that if you're
| reading that article, your Mac is already non-functional
| anyway, so good luck doing a backup :)
| atoav wrote:
| Just take out the SSD and ... Oh.
| raverbashing wrote:
| Even if you could, SSD encryption keys are kept in T2
| azinman2 wrote:
| Only if you turn on FileVault, AFAIK. And if so, then
| that's the sensible encryption story.
| stefan_ wrote:
| I thought this part was more damning:
|
| _In very rare circumstances, such as a power failure during
| a macOS upgrade, a Mac that has the Apple T2 Security Chip
| may become unresponsive_
|
| The chip that has the keys for your system in its hands does
| not have redundant firmware images, like every cheap ass
| Android?
| pram wrote:
| To be clear there are two options: Revive and Restore. Revive
| just reinstalls the T2 firmware and reboots the system.
| Restore basically clears the entire system as stated.
| selectodude wrote:
| The T2 is the SSD controller, which also transparently
| encrypts all the data on the SSD. So yeah, a firmware issue
| will nuke your data by design.
| avn2109 wrote:
| If this fix works as advertised, you should definitely make a
| StackOverflow post or similar, such that this fix is more
| searcheable than an HN comment! It could help a ton of people.
| fabianhjr wrote:
| This is out of scope for both https://StackOverflow.com and
| https://SuperUser.com.
|
| This is an Apple Hardware and macOS issue and should be
| posted on https://Apple.StackExchange.com
| gosukiwi wrote:
| > Apple suggested a replacement machine
|
| That's so wrong on so many levels.
| wishysgb wrote:
| Just as a reminder, don't forget and buy more apple products.
| that will teach them
| andy_ppp wrote:
| I suspect Catalina is my last OSX...
| w0de0 wrote:
| Since Big Sur is macOS 11, this is definitely so.
| [deleted]
| arnonejoe wrote:
| I upgraded yesterday and it got stuck for 90 min. MacBook Pro
| (16-inch, 2019); Machine is 6 months old. Progress bar stopped at
| 95% after an hour. Did a hard reboot and it finished immediately.
| Working fine now.
| GnarfGnarf wrote:
| Hasn't anybody heard of loading the new OS on an external drive
| and dual-booting? (hold down Option key when powering up, you get
| to choose which OS you boot).
|
| I've got a 10.15 MBP, and I'm going to cautiously investigate
| macOS 11 on an external SSD while retaining 10.15 on my internal
| drive. I can also boot 10.14 from an SD memory card to reproduce
| customer issues.
| pram wrote:
| You can also do it easily with an APFS container now.
| mywacaday wrote:
| It's probably in the T&C's but why would events like this not
| lead to a class action? People working from home with no other
| hardware must be tearing their hair out.
| verisimilitude wrote:
| Look, I realize this is a meta point: but has anyone else noticed
| how TYPICAL the discussion in TFA is at the official Apple
| support forums? The atmosphere is absolutely poisonous there, in
| the strangest passive aggressive way -- every time I search for
| help there, I find tons of replies that are useless, and about 5%
| of the time I find a helpful tidbit. There's one user in
| particular, whose name I won't mention, who posts EVERYWHERE with
| just condescending garbage, and yet they have massive forum
| points (level 10, or whatever).
|
| It's very odd -- something about the moderation or something has
| created a community there that is extremely hostile to accurately
| identifying and quantifying real issues in software and hardware,
| and allergic to useful solutions.
|
| Developer forums are much better, though.
| pottertheotter wrote:
| I see this all over the place where companies have outsourced
| their support to the community and give out levels like this.
| Netgear and Evernote have similar forums. You get high-level
| "community helpers" who respond with non-helpful and toxic
| comments.
| rsync wrote:
| Agreed. I get this vibe from the Sonos and Ubiquiti forums.
| pram wrote:
| Every discussion about Apple is like this. Reddit, Macrumors,
| HN. They've all been captured by people who think Apple can not
| fail vs people who think Apple is the great satan
| puranjay wrote:
| BS like this is exactly why I moved away from Mac altogether. My
| wife's Macbook Air had a similar black screen after upgrading to
| Sierra. On my Pro, upgrading to Sierra completely messed up
| Cubase and a bunch of audio plugins, to the point that I had to
| reverse the upgrade. I still haven't upgraded to Sierra. Shortly
| after, I moved to Windows and despite its almost weekly updates,
| nothing has broken this bad on it yetm
| weagle05 wrote:
| I also had this happen on my late 2013 MBP 15, it stayed on black
| screen for hours. I had an external monitor attached, so I was
| curious if that was affecting the update. I unplugged the monitor
| and then reset the laptop. It took at couple attempts, but the
| update resumed and I'm running Big Sur with no issues.
| Naomarik wrote:
| Looks like forced obsolescence. My former daily driver a 2015
| Macbook Pro has somehow become so slow it struggles with the most
| basic tasks, even after a fresh install. Nothing seems wrong with
| it other than it's slow to the point that browsing the web is a
| pain and development work has become impossible. Wasn't like that
| when I bought it.
| bayindirh wrote:
| My Mid2014 MBP doesn't show these symptoms. So, forced
| obsolescence is unlikely. Apple obsoletes devices by not
| providing software updates to them.
|
| However, I was able to buy new batteries from apple for my non-
| unibody mac even after its update cycle is ended.
|
| I can still buy aftermarket batteries for it and it works well.
| I might install something else on it in the future but, it's
| far from useless and dead.
| anonymouse008 wrote:
| Check your kernel_task in Activity Monitor... if it's hogging
| all the processing % it most likely means the processor is
| being throttled.
|
| The throttling sometimes happens because of a bad temp sensor /
| connection. Sometimes it's the charging port as well
| bayindirh wrote:
| Or during long re-indexing sessions which happen after OS
| updates generally.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| I've had laptops that got slower over time that turned out to
| be full of dust inside. Easy fix with an air hose or anything
| to the same effect.
| joshontheweb wrote:
| Could be dust buildup inside causing overheating and cpu
| throttling
| JohnTHaller wrote:
| Have you done a full internal cleaning and reapplying the
| thermal paste?
| Bud wrote:
| No, it does not look like "forced obsolescence", and could we
| please stop with this silly narrative every single time there
| is any kind of Apple bug?
|
| It gets nobody anywhere, it's contradicted by a 20-year period
| of generally very reliable and long-lasting hardware from
| Apple, and additionally, it's lazy and uninformative.
| hungryforcodes wrote:
| Remember when they took a year off to basically rewrite and
| optimize Mac OS after 10.5? And they produced a wonderful OS
| that I'm sure people still have very fond memories of. It
| didn't have a lot of new features, compared to 10.5. Steve
| Jobs even said that publicly a number of times, during that
| year. He said -- and I'm paraphrasing -- "that we will work
| on PERFORMANCE." All my Macs since 1998 have suffered slow
| downs on Mac OS updates after say 10.6. 10.6 was the pinnacle
| of performance.
|
| Every upgrade since 10.10 has had a NOTICEABLE slow down on
| my MacBook Air 2013, and my 2012 Mac Mini, and more recently
| my MBP 2017 is showing signs of slow down and reduced battery
| life as well with each update. They can even be point
| updates, not major ones.
|
| These happen man, and I can't see the real benefits that I've
| gotten from say 10.10 -> 10.15 that would outvalue the
| degradation in performance I've seen. Ok you say, a MBA 2013
| is ready for the pasture, but a maxed out (RAM, SSD) MBP that
| is 3 years old is really just entering midlife.
|
| It's not a random mistake.
| gpm wrote:
| The 20 year period in which Apple has paid out hundreds of
| millions in dollars in settlements for illegally forcing
| obsolence of old devices, e.g. this one [1] that was settled
| in March of this year and this fine from France [2] in
| February of this year?
|
| History is not on Apple's side here.
|
| [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/02/technology/apple-
| iphone-l...
|
| [2] https://fortune.com/2020/02/07/apple-iphone-slowdown-
| update-...
| DonaldPShimoda wrote:
| It's so frustrating that people immediately jump for
| "forced/planned obsolescence" whenever something like this
| happens.
|
| Forced obsolescence is the _deliberate_ undermining of a
| device to ensure that it cannot be used in the future. That
| would be if Apple _intentionally_ included code in Big Sur to
| cause older MacBooks to mysteriously brick.
|
| There is a big difference between intentionally writing code
| like this versus not performing adequate Q&A to ensure that
| such bug doesn't exist, and only the former of these
| qualifies as planned obsolescence.
| robbyt wrote:
| It's probably spotlight reindexing. This has been a problem
| with every version of osx for the past 20 years. Let it run
| overnight, and it should be caught up.
| TheKnack wrote:
| Came here to say this. This happens on all of Apple's
| operating systems - Mac, iOS, etc.
|
| It's also a good idea to clean install all major (annual)
| versions of Apple OS's. When you install one major version
| over another, the upgrade script has to try to convert the
| configurations for most system services to the format for the
| new OS version and the possible combinations of settings in
| those configurations is virtually unlimited. A lot of post-
| upgrade issues and sluggishness result from non-optimal
| conversion of those configurations, especially on iOS. If you
| back up everything and format the drive before installing the
| new OS, everything will work much better. Yes it takes extra
| time to do that, but you will save many multiples of that
| time over the next year because your machine will run faster
| and have fewer issues.
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| I actually wouldn't recommend clean installing every single
| year (unless you're running betas). But for the person with
| the 2015 MacBook Pro, 5 years later is a good time to clean
| install.
| arvinsim wrote:
| Might as well go back to Windows or Linux if I have to
| reinstall with every major update.
|
| What am I paying the Apple tax for?
| ysleepy wrote:
| I work on a 2015 13" and its completely fine. Only the mission
| control animations are sometimes 15fps on my 4k screen. Web
| browsing and dev work is good as ever.
|
| Maybe check if the cooling is clogged or the cpu is force
| throttling because some temp sensor is not working. Run apple
| diagnostic for that.
|
| MacOS has a bunch of bugs (for me) and they have terrible QA as
| it seems, but I don't see planned obsolescence here.
| ashtonkem wrote:
| One of the more annoying parts of our current age is how
| quickly everyone responds with a conspiracy whenever something
| goes wrong. They made a mistake, it's that simple.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| Apple is very clear when they decide a certain machine or
| generation of machines will not be eligible for an os upgrade.
|
| More likely as someone in the thread pointed out, this is
| probably a bug related to some kind of defect or damage in the
| system's io board. Perhaps a certain revision of said board is
| a problem. Some suggest that something the upgrade does
| 'damages the board' .. perhaps through some kind of firmware
| update, but that story isn't so clear yet.
| leptons wrote:
| >Apple is very clear when they decide a certain machine or
| generation of machines will not be eligible for an os
| upgrade.
|
| Maybe they could make that clear for anyone buying an Intel
| based mac since we all know they are switching over to ARM
| CPUs. They won't though, they will still be selling Intel
| Macs for some time, knowing that they won't be supporting
| those macs through the useful lifetime of the hardware.
| ehvatum wrote:
| Replacing the dried out thermal paste and pads interfacing the
| main board chips with their heat sinks cured this issue on my
| ancient core2 black macbook, which remains a perfectly good
| gentoo laptop. The latest Intel chips don't seem to be much
| better. It's interesting.
| gambiting wrote:
| How? I'm still using a Late 2008 MacBook Pro with Catalina and
| it runs absolutely fine for browsing and programming, and your
| 2015 model is running slow?
|
| Also, that sounds like a bug not forced obsolescence, apple
| just doesn't allow new MacOSes to be installed on hardware old
| enough unless you hack around it.
| corytheboyd wrote:
| Running a 2012 MacBook Pro, also still works just fine for
| development. The screen suffers burn-in very easily now but
| it's not a big enough distraction to upgrade :P
| leptons wrote:
| Apple switched to ARM CPUs. Your 2008 MBP now has an
| expiration date, where it will not be capable of any more OS
| updates after a certain date. All Intel Macs will not be
| supported after a certain date. We don't know what date that
| is yet, but it is coming.
| ohazi wrote:
| For anyone still on the fence about the merits of Linux vs OS X
| after the beating Apple has taken this week, there are rolling
| release distributions that allow you to set up a Linux system
| once, keep it up to date with small updates, and pretty much
| never have to deal with scheduling around major updates that
| might work, or might require a reinstall. I've had desktops /
| laptops like this that have worked continuously for over ten
| years. EOL for these machines is usually a migration or
| replacement.
|
| Yes, little things do break every now and then, just like they do
| on your Mac. These regressions are rare, and they're usually easy
| to fix. Once you've gotten past the initial install, blanking
| displays and fubared bootloaders aren't nearly as common as the
| doubt peddlers would have you believe.
| oneplane wrote:
| Well, this sucks of course. Apple is to blame and should repair
| it for free, etc. But now I'm just curious as to 'how' this would
| work. Is there some sort of EEPROM, flash or controller on that
| board that gets loaded with new settings or firmware? I know Big
| Sur does some UEFI upgrades, but would that extend to the I/O
| board? Or is that a separate payload? Or perhaps the update is
| only for the SMC or Intel firmware which crashes with certain I/O
| boards during init and then once init is complete it can cope
| with any I/O board next boot?
| gumby wrote:
| System updates also include firmware updates for all sorts of
| reasons.
|
| Honestly, Apple has so few Mac SKUs (this is a _good_ thing)
| that I imagine it is possible to exhaustively test firmware
| upgrades on every supported device in QC. Perhaps people
| upgrade with random devices plugged into their machines?
| vmware513 wrote:
| Never update. Always wipe and clean install from USB sticky.
| Trigger nvram and smc reset after install. Your machine will be
| perfect.
| rsync wrote:
| This is God's own truth and it has been this way since Windows
| 3.1 which had the ability to upgrade to Windows 95.
|
| Just don't.
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