[HN Gopher] The biology of dads
___________________________________________________________________
The biology of dads
Author : elsewhen
Score : 155 points
Date : 2020-11-17 15:07 UTC (7 hours ago)
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(TXT) w3m dump (aeon.co)
| _whiteCaps_ wrote:
| If there are any parents of newborns here, please read up on the
| Period of Purple Crying: http://purplecrying.info/
|
| This was one of the hardest times for me as a parent, and it was
| helpful to know that I wasn't alone. We were given a DVD about
| this from our public health nurse.
|
| Now I have a teenager, and oh boy, it's a whole new set of
| problems.
| vagrantJin wrote:
| Funny because I was thinking about something similar to this for
| almost the whole of last week. I'm convinced men and women are
| equally capable of parenting but something is different. I still
| don't know what it is and the article postulates some interesting
| physiological connections but not quite hitting the right spot.
|
| But I might just be paranoid or an idiot unsure if he will be a
| good father or not. Men plan, the gods laugh.
| mebr wrote:
| I'm going to be a dad in 2 weeks. I already feel the changes
| mentioned in the articles, i.e. higher oxytocin and lower.
| testosterone.
| zero_deg_kevin wrote:
| Any ideas on how to get them to stick around after their kids are
| born? Asking for a friend.
| auslegung wrote:
| Some people will stick around and some won't. I would avoid
| those who won't like the plague, not just as a potential
| significant other but even as a friend. I'm not saying that
| everyone who has lost custody of their child or doesn't see
| their child much is a horrible person, but I am saying that
| those people who aren't even _interested_ in raising their own
| children are not generally the kind of people I want
| influencing me. Parenthood is difficult, some people try really
| hard and it beats them, and there shouldn't be any shame in
| that, there should be help. I'm also not talking about people
| in that category.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| There are many men that do not want to sacrifice their pursuit
| of happiness for children.
|
| This is why almost half of US children are not raised under the
| same roof with their biological father.
| throwaway5376 wrote:
| If you're still at a point in life where having children
| means "sacrificing your happiness", then you probably
| shouldn't be having children yet anyway (assuming it's a case
| where you're making a conscious decision on the matter).
| That's not a healthy starting point for either party.
| vincentmarle wrote:
| > This is why almost half of US children are not raised under
| the same roof with their biological father.
|
| Do you have any source on this? That's an interesting but
| shocking fact
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2020/comm/chi
| l...
|
| I didn't expect to see similar proportions of children both
| living only with mother and only with father. In fact, 12
| to 17 years of age is 44% only with father versus 36.6%
| only with mother. Not only do more teens live with their
| father only, but only 20% live with both parents?
| vincentmarle wrote:
| > only 20% live with both parents
|
| That's not the correct conclusion, the percentages add up
| to 100% for both the single mother and single father
| parent cohort, but it doesn't say anything about kids who
| are living with both parents.
| ihsw wrote:
| By enshrining the rights of fathers in law and destroying the
| ability of single mothers to go it alone.
| dwaltrip wrote:
| Help them face the problems, emotions, and ways of thinking in
| their own life that are holding them back. Then they will be
| more prepared and excited to expand this practice of care
| outward, starting with those closest to them such as immediate
| family. Far easier said than done. It can take years.
| itronitron wrote:
| Accept that there is a training process, some men are willing
| to take lessons from their partner and some aren't.
|
| Also, regarding your friend's children... I know two adults who
| turned out to be very successful in life and in their careers
| despite having fathers that abandoned them at a young age.
| flatline wrote:
| From the article there are actually a number of weak
| correlates: a man with smaller testes, for example. But it
| concludes with the prefrontal cortex being the largest
| discriminator, all other factors considered. It would seem that
| picking a partner who is capable and willing to use rational
| thought to override emotional responses would be a successful
| strategy - more capable of dealing with the frustrating reality
| of childcare, less likely to leave in search of another mate.
| watwut wrote:
| By selecting them before the kid is born.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Before conceived is even better.
| chub500 wrote:
| I will make a shameless plug for marriage. While it is
| obviously not foolproof, and can go bad just as swiftly as no
| marriage at all, it is still a good signal of commitment in a
| partner. If your partner desires to be married (not just to
| please you I might add) then at least at face value he desires
| commitment. It isn't just an idle ceremony but a contract and
| vows with family and friends witnessing ideally to hold you to
| account.
|
| Best of luck to your friend! ;)
| Viliam1234 wrote:
| Depends. "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is
| unhappy in its own way."
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Karenina_principle
|
| But I think the majority of cases could be covered by these two
| things: (1) Choose the right person; don't expect that someone
| will magically change after the kids are born. (2) Don't let
| your partner feel like a fifth wheel, or rather like a mere
| money machine, after the kids are born.
| woohoojoo wrote:
| custody battles, alimony laws, "committed, intimate
| relationship = you're now married against your will for living
| together" and other misandrist policies are responsible for
| demonstrating that men are typically desired only as a
| financial vehicle. courts & society don't care whether or not
| men are around to raise kids. if they did care, we wouldn't
| have such crooked, lopsided laws.
| hvdfhbj wrote:
| Choosing your husband more wisely, I suppose?
| superflit wrote:
| Maybe remembering the fathers that after his kid is born there
| is a "hell" time of mostly 3-4 months where the baby will be
| adapting to you and vice-versa.
|
| Then the baby sleeps gets longer and you can have 6-8h of
| sleep.
|
| New fathers: Hold tight, after 3-4 months it gets way easier.
| zo1 wrote:
| It gets better after 1 years, then gets better after 2, and
| so on. Especially once they become autonomous and self-
| sustaining and you can reason with them using words. Then
| it's absolute rewarding bliss and frustrating chaos all at
| the same time.
| serpix wrote:
| at the 8 year mark I have yet to experience this reasoning
| with words you speak of.
| x87678r wrote:
| Just wait until they're 16 and aren't home by midnight and
| not answering phone.
| oblio wrote:
| Yeah, but at that point it's kind of out of your control.
| You've probably provided 95% of the guidance you could have
| provided and they're almost grown-ups.
|
| I understand the attachment, but at some point you have to
| let go and life is full of risks (and interesting things).
|
| Though I doubt my reasoning will assuage any parental fears
| :-)
| x87678r wrote:
| > Though I doubt my reasoning will assuage any parental
| fears :-)
|
| Yeah how many teenagers do you parent? :)
| wincy wrote:
| My wife and I had two queen sized beds, I slept on one, and
| our infant and my wife on the other. We coslept and my wife
| breast fed ad libitum. People kept asking me if I was tired,
| and I was confused about what they meant. I remember her once
| commenting "it's so amazing, she (our daughter) sleeps
| through the night without feeding!" to which I replied, "no,
| she makes a small fuss and you roll over and pop a boob in
| her mouth"! Wife wasn't even aware it was happening, and we
| were well rested and happy.
|
| On the downside, breast feeding ad libitum basically meant my
| wife's full time job was to breast feed, we went on a date
| after our kid was a few months old and we had to cut it short
| because she was sore and it was feeding time. She estimates
| she spent 40+ hours a week breastfeeding. She played a lot of
| video games with our daughter latched on, since it could be
| pretty boring.
|
| Like any parents, we had a few "hell nights" when she was
| sick or teething, but in general human infants are
| significantly happier (and much quieter!) sleeping next to
| their mother, and unless a mother is either drunk or under
| the influence of some other substance, you're not going to
| crush your baby. I slept significantly more soundly and slept
| in a different bed. Putting your kid in a crib in a different
| room is a very weird, Victorian thing to do.
| dkural wrote:
| I respect your choice; I suggest that you may try doing the
| same for people putting their kids in cribs instead of
| calling it weird and Victorian - because studies show it to
| reduce infant deaths; and it is practiced widely across the
| World, not just Victorian England. It is not weird for a
| parent to choose something that is shown to be safer for
| their infant. Again, I respect co-sleeping too; you had a
| queen just for baby and momma, and seem to be attentive and
| amazing parents. Some parents may be heavier sleepers
| though! I think there are many ways to be a good parent.
| Different room is also associated with higher risk though
| in the first 6 months ~ ideally crib is in a room with a
| parent.
| auslegung wrote:
| In my experience it's a lot longer than 3-4 months. Or
| perhaps it's hell for 3-4 months, then just purgatory for
| another couple of years. I have a 4-yo and 2.5-yo and my
| sleep has still not recovered. Just last night one of them
| woke up screaming, and this continues to happen about weekly.
| Being woken up in the middle of the night is one thing, being
| woken up in the middle of the night to the banshee screams of
| a young child is quite another.
| jnwatson wrote:
| It varies widely. My kid has slept through the night since
| about 4 weeks old. The more kids you have, the more likely
| you are to get a fussy one.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| My mother, at 76 years old, to me at 56 years old and
| (former) stay-at-home parent: "oh, the first 40 years are
| the hardest".
| zrail wrote:
| This rhymes with my experience. My 4.5yo only wakes up when
| she's sick but my 2yo wakes up at least once a night almost
| every night. Last night was the first time in weeks where
| she didn't, but then of course my body has been trained to
| respond to her so I didn't sleep well.
| zo1 wrote:
| For the most part: Choose a male mate that has qualities which
| signal or are correlated with their likelihood to stick around
| afterwards and be a good parent. That would increase the
| likelihood of them staying (barring unexpected external factors
| to the dynamic). You can't just "magically" make people want
| something they don't want to, nor can you force them (you can
| see that with things like child-support payments).
| balabaster wrote:
| Well, I've got both of mine... but then, I always wanted kids.
| Their mom was biggest part of the issue. That's why I have them
| at every possible opportunity - which translates to: If I'm
| home, which I am most of the time, they're most likely with me.
| ksdale wrote:
| "They seemed like ideal infant-caregivers: calm, gentle, patient
| and sensitive. They didn't seem like men you would go to battle
| with. In fact, they were the very antithesis of the warriors and
| athletes - think Maximus, Achilles or Michael Jordan - often
| associated with a masculine ideal."
|
| I became a father quite a bit before most of my friends, and so
| was the butt of some jokes about masculinity for the way I
| parented (purely just the poking fun between good, old friends),
| but perhaps as a result of fatherhood, where my former reaction
| to those jokes would have been embarrassment, my new reaction was
| to think that my friends were childish for not being able to
| understand how it felt to be a father who loved his children.
|
| Also, somewhat ironic, but my willingness to "go to battle" for
| my family is _far_ greater than my willingness to "go to battle"
| for anything before having a family, to an extent that becoming a
| father has made me far more assertive, confident, and willing to
| take responsibility, which makes me more "masculine" if you so
| happen to define masculinity that way...
| gabereiser wrote:
| I echo this. I'm an empty nester now but when I was raising
| kids (really early on) most of my friends were going to bars
| and didn't understand the responsibility. Now they are all
| having kids and looking to me for answers... like there's a
| manual for kids.
|
| I felt the most pride in my life watching my step-daughter get
| her diploma. I, a masculine man who was taught to bottle it all
| up and stuff upper lip, cried like a baby.
|
| Those who have kids know. Those who don't just will never
| understand.
| TooRightKite wrote:
| That's nice, but why did your step daughter max the pride-
| meter instead of one of your own?
| Kluny wrote:
| You're making a pretty big leap of assumption here.
|
| - he didn't say that he had biological kids
|
| - the step daughter is his own daughter, they aren't two
| different things
|
| - he didn't say that if he does have biological kids, that
| he didn't tear up at their graduation
|
| - he also didn't specify the ages of any of his kids, so
| there's no reason to assume that any others have graduated
|
| I'm curious as to where those assumptions came from?
| TooRightKite wrote:
| True, on second reading he says "raising kids", not
| having them.
| treeman79 wrote:
| Have adopted from foster kid system.
|
| Pretty quick they are YOUR kid. Emotionally, It fills the
| same.
| lallysingh wrote:
| Also, it's not like we're born with DNA testers. There's
| no reason why our instincts actually know the difference
| between our biological kids and others we've been with,
| played the same role with, and raised the same way.
| kortilla wrote:
| Yes, but it depends on the age of the child when the
| relationship starts. My half sister was 13-ish about when
| my father married my mother (so my half sister's step-
| mother).
|
| There was always an obvious difference in the way she
| bonded with my mom vs her biological mom. It's still
| family, but more like an aunt at best. Despite never
| saying it, it's pretty obvious my mother obviously views
| us differently as well having basically had no say in any
| of her step daughters formative years.
| lallysingh wrote:
| Of course. That makes perfect sense.
| Harvey-Specter wrote:
| > - he also didn't specify the ages of any of his kids,
| so there's no reason to assume that any others have
| graduated
|
| Well, he said he's an empty nester now. So...
| gabereiser wrote:
| This is what I'm talking about. There's no limit to the
| pride meter with kids. It's at 11 all the time.
| Elof wrote:
| I echo this as well. I'll also add that I made very little to
| no investment in my mental health until becoming a father. My
| perspective on who I want to be and what I need to do to get
| there changed practically overnight.
| hazeii wrote:
| At the other end, I became a father quite a bit after all of my
| friends; now I get what they couldn't get me to understand
| before.
| g42gregory wrote:
| I echo the sentiment as well. I think these are precisely the
| men you would go to the battle with. The battle to defend the
| family and the Country. The men who know what they are fighting
| for.
| swat535 wrote:
| Your testosterone levels are reduced as a man when you become a
| father [1], I wouldn't be surprised if that affects men's
| behaviour.
|
| Our evolution is complex, I find it fascinating that you can
| often dig up research with regards to this topic.
|
| [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3182719/
| surge wrote:
| I think he's overstating how much effect T has on this.
|
| I'm on HRT due to past medical issues that drastically
| reduced my T levels. I remember what it was like to have my T
| really low, Now that I'm on T, and probably about normal or
| higher than average for my age, I can't say its changed
| drastically my attitude towards my children, how gentle I am
| towards them and much less increased my willingness
| proclivity to leave my family or my wife and seek another
| partner. If anything its made me more protective and I've had
| more a sense of duty towards my family, to protect them and
| be the first line of defense against whatever threats minor
| and major exist. The worst of it has been a shortness of
| temper but I keep it in check, its basically like being 20
| again and being older and wiser, I can channel it into
| positive action.
|
| I wonder if he studied fathers who are physically active and
| do things like weight lifting or MMA, that naturally elevate
| T levels would agree that the line drawn between animals with
| higher T and humans are being overly correlated.
| lqet wrote:
| > "go to battle"
|
| I remember that in the first days after my kid was born, the
| thought that I would defend that child to the bitter end
| against _any_ attacker suddenly seemed completely natural, even
| trivial. It was quite strange and included a sudden extreme
| awareness of (and aggressive feelings against) animals which
| came to close. This included dogs. The feelings were
| overwhelmingly archaic. I talked to my wife about this, she
| experienced the same. I now understand the aggressiveness of
| animals who protect their offspring. I felt it myself.
|
| There seems to be some research regarding this:
| https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/147470491666228...
| cortesoft wrote:
| I can totally relate to this. I have always been a completely
| non-violent person, but I remember the feeling of "I would
| kill to defend this tiny creature" when I became a dad. It
| was pretty powerful.
| kortilla wrote:
| This is also when you realize the insidious power of the
| "think of the children" argument. When someone manipulates
| you to think of your own children, they trigger that base
| instinct that's hard to fight.
| colechristensen wrote:
| Many of the problems in the world boil down to
| intentional and unintentional manipulation of basic
| instincts/ traits/ weaknesses of humans. The biggest way
| to fight this is simply making people aware of them.
| elteto wrote:
| One day it just hit me: "I could totally give my life for
| this child".
|
| It came out of nowhere and it was a chilling and somewhat
| unnerving feeling. I never felt that for anyone. But the
| conviction is there, almost like a peaceful resignation: if
| there is no other solution and that is the only possible
| alternative then so be it.
|
| Crazy.
| zarkov99 wrote:
| I feel exactly the same way, with respect to "going to battle".
| Things got much more real after kids, its you they look to when
| things go wrong and you better have it together.
| rayiner wrote:
| It's kind of a weird ret-conning of "of the masculine ideal."
| When NASA picked astronauts to be the public face of the
| technological race against communism, they picked men with
| families: https://nasa.fandom.com/wiki/Mercury_Seven
|
| > From the 18, the first seven NASA astronauts were chosen,[8]
| each a "superb physical specimen" with an IQ above 130, and the
| ability to function well both as part of a team and solo.[6]
| Grissom, Cooper, and Slayton were Air Force pilots; Shepard,
| Carpenter, and Schirra were Navy pilots, and Glenn was a Marine
| Corps pilot.
|
| > Because they wore civilian clothes, the audience did not see
| them as military test pilots but "mature, middle-class
| Americans, average in height and visage, family men all," ready
| for single combat versus worldwide Communism. To the
| astronauts' surprise, the reporters asked about their personal
| lives instead of war records or flight experience, or about the
| details of Mercury. After Glenn responded by speaking
| eloquently "on God, country, and family" the others followed
| his example, and the reporters "lustily applauded them."
| ksdale wrote:
| This is great. In my comment, I almost mentioned that because
| of how much earlier people historically had children (than
| most Americans and Europeans do now), most of the people we
| think of as "masculine ideals" throughout history would have
| been (were) fathers.
|
| The number of times I read about a famous historical figure
| on Wikipedia, and they mention almost as an afterthought that
| they had 6 kids...
|
| But I didn't want to go off on a big tangent about the
| "masculine ideal" although I agree completely that there is
| ret-conning and we could definitely use a rethink of how we
| expect men to act!
| rayiner wrote:
| I'm not sure who "Maximus" is--if the author is talking
| about the movie Gladiator, the whole premise of that story
| is that Maximus is a loving family man. Achilles had a son
| who fought in the war against Troy. He for also had a
| family, and that's a key part of his portrayal by Homer. In
| fact, the Odyssey is about Odysseus returning home to his
| wife and son.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > calm, gentle, patient and sensitive. They didn't seem like
| men you would go to battle with. In fact, they were the very
| antithesis of the warriors and athletes
|
| IMO this really describes almost _everyone_ , not just fathers.
| There's a pretty big disconnect between our cultural ideal, and
| reality. Half of American men are fat whether they have a kid
| or not.
| antisthenes wrote:
| > There's a pretty big disconnect between our cultural ideal,
| and reality.
|
| As someone who isn't a native-born American, is that really
| your cultural ideal? Warriors and athletes?
|
| Because to an outsider that just seems...laughable at best,
| and for more reasons than just rampant obesity.
| zarkov99 wrote:
| Why? What is your culture's cultural ideal?
| antisthenes wrote:
| I think you might have missed the point of my post.
|
| It's laughable because it is so far from reality, not
| because the ideals are something to be laughed at.
| zarkov99 wrote:
| I would argue that American males are closer to the
| warrior archetype than any other democracy. We certainly
| have fought more actual wars than any other advanced
| nation, we have the best combat athletes in the world,
| many of us hunt, shoot and practice warrior like skills.
| I am hard pressed to think of any other modern society
| that comes even close.
| [deleted]
| watwut wrote:
| For whatever is worth, I don't find warrior ideal either.
| I associate that with someone who is source of danger and
| threat.
|
| Warriors around means that you have to go home shortest
| route and watch whether the room is dangerous.
|
| Athletes have good bodies, but that is about it.
| p2t2p wrote:
| As one good book a read recently says: Be dangerous but
| not the danger.
|
| In think warrior ideal describes exactly that. You've got
| tools, skills and internal readiness to be the danger but
| you're not until it's necessary
| zarkov99 wrote:
| Sure, but morality aside there is something to be admired
| in people that do dangerous, frightnening and difficult
| things for a living.
| kortilla wrote:
| "Difficult" does not belong with the other two.
| Hoasi wrote:
| > Also, somewhat ironic, but my willingness to "go to battle"
| for my family is far greater than my willingness to "go to
| battle" for anything before having a family, to an extent that
| becoming a father has made me far more assertive, confident,
| and willing to take responsibility, which makes me more
| "masculine" if you so happen to define masculinity that way...
|
| That's a known fact in the military since times immemorial.
| frenchyatwork wrote:
| > Also, somewhat ironic, but my willingness to "go to battle"
| for my family is far greater than my willingness to "go to
| battle" for anything before having a family
|
| I'd bet the "for my family" part is critical to this statement
| though, and in the modern "Western" world, at least, such
| circumstances are exceedingly rare.
|
| I'm less inclined to go mountaineering or ice climbing, to give
| a more realistic example, partly because of the risk, and
| quality time at home (both with family and alone) is a pretty
| limited resource.
| ksdale wrote:
| It is, surprisingly, not as critical as I would have thought.
| There is something about being a dad that is sufficiently
| general, the idea that I'm responsible for another person's
| wellbeing entirely, that made me more confident that I could
| be trusted with greater responsibility.
|
| And I use the phrase "go to battle" almost as metaphorically
| as possible, in the sense of my willingness to be in conflict
| with people over right and wrong, but I think that's a good
| point about physical safety and quality time.
| cosmic_shame wrote:
| My personal experience as a dad of a 16 month old: new, intense
| anxiety about what the future will look like for my child.
| softwaredoug wrote:
| this only gets worse when they get older.
|
| A dangerous thing that can happen is when you over-identify
| with your kids. Like being the overbearing sports-parent that
| pushes their kid to succeed because you see it as an extension
| of your success. I think every parent runs into this to some
| degree. I have to remind myself they are different people with
| their own wants, needs, values, and criteria for what "success"
| means to them. Not an extension of myself.
|
| Yet it's hard to balance avoiding over-identifying with the "I
| want to keep you out of obvious danger". Like "Don't go 200K in
| debt for a poor college education" or things like drug and
| alcohol usage at too young an age. The downside risks for some
| of these things are huge.
| Mmrnmhrm wrote:
| If you have any resources on how to manage anxiety please
| bring them on. My old son has a mild development impairment,
| I am the sole bread earner, and we have no family support (we
| live abroad).
|
| Anxiety is crippling me to the point of rupture.
| Mmrnmhrm wrote:
| I appreciate the answers. Thanks!
|
| I'm tying (unsuccessfully) to get sleep, and I'll try
| magnesium supplements too. I already spoke about this but
| never got solutions, and at this point it feels almost even
| worse every time.
| deberon wrote:
| Talk to somebody. A licensed professional would be best,
| but a significant other or trusted friend will work too.
| You have to get your thoughts out into the real world so
| you can process them. Journaling helps with this. Also,
| focus on your well-being. Make sure you're getting enough
| exercise, take up yoga, find a productive hobby, etc. If
| you have a significant other, make sure you stay
| communicative. As a parent it's easy to sacrifice your
| well-being for the sake of the family, but the family will
| work best if you're healthy.
| aantix wrote:
| * A dose of magnesium l-threonate in the morning and before
| bed
|
| * A dose of magnesium glycinate in the morning and before
| bed
|
| * A dose of black seed oil in the morning and at night
|
| If you did a hair mineral analysis test, I assure you, you
| would most likely be magnesium deficient. The body needs
| magnesium in order to deal with stress. Anxiety is stress.
|
| The deficiency wreaks havoc on the nervous system. Take a
| HMAT from Analytical Research Labs if you want to be 100%.
| You'll have to find a practitioner.
|
| I've done years of therapy. But getting my basic nutrients
| in order, made an immediate impact and has had a much
| bigger difference in treating my anxiety.
| kilroy123 wrote:
| +1 about magnesium and nutrition. I saw a huge
| improvement once I started getting enough.
|
| Also don't forget about getting enough sleep every night.
| dbrueck wrote:
| Hang in there! It's absolutely worth all the effort, and
| things will likely turn out far better than you may think.
|
| I strongly encourage you to talk to a therapist or
| counselor of some sort - even after just a few chats they
| can arm you with some really great tools.
|
| For managing the anxiety of life generally and parenting
| specifically, religion has been very helpful for me. If
| you're not into that, maybe find something that strengthens
| the big picture & long term view of things.
| softwaredoug wrote:
| Honestly, one of the biggest tools I think is in-person
| school. Which lets the kids get their own space and
| cultivate their own lives away from parents in a supportive
| place. Sadly that's been taken from us until Covid is
| resolved. It multiplies the anxiety quite a bit for
| everyone: kids & parents. It's hard for us not to be
| overbearing to our 9 year old about virtual school. It's
| hard on him, and he's frustrated. It's hard on us because
| it's time consuming...
|
| Other than that, I strongly believe in paying well for good
| childcare and babysitting so you can take breaks.
|
| I also believe in sharing your passions with your kids, and
| focusing on quality time rather than quantity or things
| that don't interest either of you. This can be surprising.
| My kids love camping, which surprised me. I love camping -
| my wife doesn't. My kids are meh on coding, they do it, but
| it doesn't grab them like it grabs me...
|
| Focus your career choices carefully as your time on them is
| limited. I have found having kids, due to time crunch, has
| caused me to really focus more on what I really care about
| from work. Don't let others take advantage of you to do BS
| work, focus on what you want to do on a day-to-day basis
| that's fulfilling for you if you're able. I think sometimes
| parents fall into the trap of only focusing on $$ when
| really it's a good idea to focus on how much value you
| yourself are getting out of your more limited time
| investment
| stared wrote:
| I find "On Children" by Kahlil Gibran
| (https://poets.org/poem/children-1) a wise guidance:
|
| Your children are not your children.
|
| They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
|
| They come through you but not from you,
|
| And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
|
| You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
|
| For they have their own thoughts.
|
| You may house their bodies but not their souls,
|
| For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
|
| Which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
|
| You may strive to be like them,
|
| But seek not to make them like you.
|
| For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
| onemoresoop wrote:
| You know, I've had some bouts of that but I talked myself out
| of thinking too far into the future. Our children are better
| off if we don't have anxiety, if we are present and somewhat
| confident. I am aware the situation is not good but it really
| won't help at all by being anxious.
| kkwteh wrote:
| Me too. Should I push them to win the shitty meritocracy
| tournament like I did? Or should I encourage them to follow
| their dreams and perhaps be more fulfilled? I'm leaning toward
| the latter.
| mads wrote:
| It's a rigged game. As long as they are aware, they won't be
| disappointed
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I don't know what fulfilled means, but my priority is to
| equip them with the abilities needed to shelter, feed, and
| otherwise obtain necessities for themselves.
|
| Which, for many people, ends up being participating in the
| "meritocracy tournament" to secure cash flow. But I let them
| know what the rules and parameters of the game are, and
| possible consequences of various actions. After that, it's up
| to them to figure out their goals.
| kkwteh wrote:
| To put it another way, should I be like the infamous Tiger
| Mom and push my child to conform and get straight As,
| potentially with dire consequences, or should I develop her
| interests organically, hoping that they'll find an
| unconventional path, fully knowing that they'll be less
| likely to have a comfortable life? It's a dilemma for me.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I think there's a happy medium between Tiger Mom and a
| hippy parent that doesn't instill survival skills.
| wsc981 wrote:
| My daughter is now 3.5 years old, but I can't say I experienced
| the same. I believe the future of my daughter is bright.
|
| I guess your anxiety could be based on the location where your
| living? I believe my daughter will be able to find plenty of
| great opportunities in her life and I'll be able to give her a
| very nice start compared to most people around where I live
| (Thailand).
|
| I have to admit I am also not worried for things like covid and
| climate change, so if these things worry you a lot, I guess
| that might be part of your anxiety.
| mqrs wrote:
| > I am also not worried for things like covid and climate
| change
|
| Would you care to explain why?
| Spinnaker_ wrote:
| I feel the same. All evidence points to Covid being far
| less dangerous to children. There are so many other things
| that are more likely to harm them. As far as climate
| change, I am worried in general, but I don't think there is
| anything specific about it that would harm her future. We
| live in Canada. There will be problems, but we will adapt
| and figure something out.
|
| My parents lived through the most intense portions of the
| Cold War. The world could have ended at any moment. That is
| much more anxiety producing than climate change. And yet
| they made it through ok.
|
| Honestly, a big concern is how my daughter will deal with
| things like social media. Young girls are self harming at
| unheard of rates. Depression and anxiety are through the
| roof. I don't know how to deal with this.
| wsc981 wrote:
| _> Would you care to explain why?_
|
| I'm not sure if my explanation would be fruitful here. I
| realise most people on HackerNews likely disagree with me
| on these issues. I am not here to convince people of my
| views on these issues. I respect anyones opinions on these
| matters.
|
| But since you asked, in short:
|
| - I really don't believe COVID-19 is as dangerous as is
| projected in the media
|
| - I believe the human influence on climate change is much
| less than what most people tend to believe
|
| My views are based on my own research on these issues.
|
| If you'd asked me what issues I'm worried about, it's
| issues like pollution in the general sense (e.g. like
| plastics in the sea) or human population growth.
| klmadfejno wrote:
| > - I believe the human influence on climate change is
| much less than what most people tend to believe
|
| I disagree with this with a resentment towards someone
| saying its a research based view. Putting that aside,
| however, why would believing climate change isn't human
| influenced would make things more palatable? In the
| vaguest sense, that sounds to me like it would be worse,
| because then we can't possibly do anything to halt it.
| oblio wrote:
| > - I really don't believe COVID-19 is as dangerous as is
| projected in the media
|
| Well, it's obviously not very dangerous, on a medium or
| long term. The Black Plague had a 40% mortality rate,
| SARS about 20%, etc. A virus with a 1-2% mortality rate
| won't bring society down, obviously.
|
| The media machine needs nourishment and they tend to
| exaggerate things.
|
| However Covid-19 is still a big deal. If it runs its
| course unchecked ~50-80 million of people could die.
| That's a lot of pain and suffering, the likes of which
| the world hasn't had in at least 60 years.
|
| > - I believe the human influence on climate change is
| much less than what most people tend to believe
|
| This, I don't think anyone can justify. Maybe the climate
| warming estimates are overblown, ok, but human influence
| is undeniable and worst of all, we have no control over
| it and little visibility. It's like physics and closed
| systems, humanity is an open system and we're leaking
| pollution everywhere. Any way you cut it, that can't be
| good or sustainable. And there are so many of us that we
| definitely have an impact on the world. For example the
| Great Pacific Garbage Patch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wik
| i/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch). And these things will
| only become worse as we will have 3x - 4x as many people
| living in industrialized countries (4 billion people or
| more).
| ravenstine wrote:
| People with your perspective shouldn't be downvoted when
| merely being asked their honest opinion. It really goes
| to show the state of both HN and intellectualism in
| general.
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| Everyone's talking like they're worried about their kid not
| turning out like them, or that they'll accidentally vicariously
| live their life through their kid, or that their kid won't be
| emotionally equipped to be an adult.
|
| I'm worried that the planet will be inhospitable to human life,
| and that my kid will have to scramble for rat corpses in the
| shadows of collapsed skyscrapers.
| sudeepj wrote:
| One of the most important things I feel is to make your child
| ready for the real world (and not only in terms of education,
| values, profession, etc) but more from mental make-up:
|
| 1. How to handle success
|
| 2. Dealing with failures
| bagacrap wrote:
| The way I look at it is that I need my kids to be super smart,
| hard working, and principled to help extricate humanity from
| the hole it's currently digging itself into. I can think of
| many ways the future could suck more than the present, but in
| none of these scenarios will it be better off without my
| children, assuming I raise them well.
| crpatino wrote:
| I personally believe that digging itself into a hole (and
| eventually climbing back up) is the status quo for Humanity.
| It has been done multiple times before, and doubtlessly it
| will continue to be the case once our current trials are
| nothing but fading footnotes in some ancient history book.
|
| With that in mind, I don't think it is healthy for a child to
| grow up believing Humanity is fixable or, even worse, that it
| is their destiny and their duty to fix it.
| bluedays wrote:
| I experienced the same. I wound up changing my whole life
| because of it. Wound up quitting a career, getting involved in
| IT, going back to college, getting straight As when I had
| always flunked out before, found myself in an honor society,
| got recommended for tree internships within the past couple of
| months. Literally changed my life. Makes me think I should have
| had a kid sooner.
| 11thEarlOfMar wrote:
| One aspect of fatherhood that surprised me is what I call the
| 'rescue response'. I was not able to find any formal information
| about this behavior, but I have to think there is something out
| there.
|
| I have experienced this exactly twice in my life on separate
| occasions: My child entered a physically and immediately
| dangerous situation. As soon as I saw their peril, my mind went
| into a kind of flow state. I didn't take time to weigh options,
| or consider any type of danger to myself, I simply reacted and
| before I could consider what was happening, I'd removed my kids
| from the peril. Later, in one case, I noticed I had bruises from
| my action. In the other, I received a call from the school
| principal.
|
| Likewise, my father saved my brother and I from drowning, and I
| believe he had the same 'rescue response'. As soon as he saw what
| was happening, he dived in from the pier and swam the 30 feet to
| retrieve us, only to realize that once he had us, he had no idea
| what to do next. Meanwhile, my aunt had calmly climbed into a
| nearby canoe and rowed out to assist.
|
| I don't claim this is strictly a father's behavior, or strictly a
| male behavior, but personally, I haven't had this identical
| reaction in the few times I've seen other peoples' kids in
| similar urgent peril. I have taken other action, such as alerting
| bystanders, but not immediately put myself into danger. I
| contemplated options first.
| drewcon wrote:
| I have similar experiences whenever my kids have any kind of
| medium to high level accident (so to be clear not helicoptering
| every time they fall over). For whatever reason its like I go
| into immediate clinical triage mode.
|
| My two year old son ended up breaking his leg stepping off a
| short stool a couple years ago. My wife thought nothing of his
| crying but after ten minutes or so she called me while I was
| upstairs working. I immediately came down and sensed unordinary
| danger, triaged his leg and concluded it was a broken bone in
| about 20 seconds, and was off to the ER a minute later (he's
| fine!). But there is something that just kicks in and says
| "SOLVE THIS NOW".
| jacksnipe wrote:
| I have experienced something extremely similar when a pickup
| truck blew through an intersection and almost hit my partner
| and I. I yanked us both out of the way and kind of half-dove
| backwards -- it took about 20 minutes before I realized I was
| in a ton of pain (side note: it's a miracle I didn't hit my
| head).
|
| So I suspect that this is just adrenaline? It felt just like
| what you've described here.
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| I've had this happen too, especially in potentially dangerous
| situations. It's as if time slows down and you have no room to
| fear, just act.
|
| Then there's the hangover afterward :)
| MauranKilom wrote:
| Adrenaline is a hell of a drug...
| jonathanlydall wrote:
| I know you acknowledged maybe not just a father thing.
|
| I've had two major life in peril crisis with my wife.
|
| First was about 3.5 years ago and started with her sister
| calling to say they just had a serious car accident which
| ultimately resulted in my wife being in intensive care for over
| a week.
|
| The other was in June this year when my wife and I discovered
| our baby was arriving 10 weeks early.
|
| Gratefully, in both cases everything turned out fine in the
| end.
|
| But both experiences were very surreal in that in the moment I
| was calm and just focussed on doing whatever needed to be done.
|
| For the car accident it was only the next morning that it
| really hit me emotionally.
|
| And for the premature birth, it was only several hours later
| once everything seemed okay did my wife and I finally take
| bearings on how we were feeling.
|
| And on the subject of becoming a father. My daughter spent 8
| weeks in the hospital but only on the day we bought her home
| did I finally have the realisation that she is utterly and
| completely reliant on me and my wife. That was the moment that
| something changed in me. It was possibly also delayed as the
| pandemic caused hospital to severely limit visiting time for
| dads.
| tmnstr85 wrote:
| I've had the privilege of this experience twice, both girls. I'm
| 35
|
| The first one, picture perfect. I could feel my body "go to
| battle" there was this sense of pride and drive. I felt like I
| was fulfilling a part of my life that was absolutely necessary.
|
| The second one, we failed. Pre-mature by 3 weeks. Bacterial
| meningitis within 4 days of her being home. She's here with us
| now but she suffers from global sensory deficits, CP and
| retardation. It was the polar opposite of my first experience.
| Pure torture.
|
| The biology of fatherhood is a powerful one, it can give - just
| as much as it can take. For anyone who's a father out there,
| without a connection to their child, especially a healthy one.
| You're missing out. For any fathers out there who have had to
| endure failure, you are not alone and those children need love
| too.
| blobbers wrote:
| I just wanted to say something supportive. You didn't fail; a
| bacteria affected the situation more than modern medicine was
| capable of handling. I hope you're not blaming yourself.
| tmnstr85 wrote:
| I've had two law offices, with two separate sets of medical
| experts all tell me that this did not happen in the hospital.
| We live in a day and age where critical thought forces you to
| ask the next question. Well, then where did she get sick, and
| who was in charge. Sometimes it is that simple.
| [deleted]
| commandlinefan wrote:
| I was shocked how much more _patient_ I became - with everybody -
| after raising kids. It makes perfect sense, though: I had no
| choice but to learn relentless patience.
| epx wrote:
| +1, I even started to "cry as a woman" after bad dreams or so.
| That started before the kid was born, even. My kid never had
| problems to sleep, he is by far more easygoing than either
| myself or even my wife, so I cannot blame external factors that
| forced me to be more patient or sympathetic. One basically gets
| a firmware upgrade when becomes a father.
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| There's a quote along these lines: "the son parents the
| father."
|
| It's always stuck with me for reasons that I'm sure you can
| relate to.
| onemoresoop wrote:
| This is true for me as well. When my child was a few months old
| something clicked and the constant crying wasn't bothering me
| anymore. Since then, things that used to irk me are no longer
| affecting me. But I remember saying to myself that the baby
| isn't in control and they're not trying to be annoying on
| purpose, all babies cry (most of them of course) and there's no
| reason to get annoyed, it won't help me or anybody. I think it
| helped. Now at most I get a bit stressed out when the crying is
| very loud and incessant, but it does not register the way it
| used to. I remember the in first weeks I was a wreck and a lot
| of it was my own doing, I was anticipating the future distress
| and was getting annoyed in advance.
| djaychela wrote:
| Ironically I spent over a decade in teaching (and about 5 years
| in a school with lots of pupils with SEND requirements), and
| then when I met my girlfriend and her 4 kids (who I've now been
| step-parent of for 10+ years), I was told how patient I was -
| teaching taught me it first, which was handy as I wasn't
| patient before... but it's definitely needed with kids.
| yhoneycomb wrote:
| Congratulations on being a step-parent for 10+ years!
|
| Unfortunately, much of society fails to recognize that we
| need
|
| compatible partners who love each other and will raise
| others'
|
| kids. It is a shame because it is truly important.
| carabiner wrote:
| I am so glad I had a vasectomy and that I never had kids. My life
| is unspoilt, and I celebrate it every day.
| ksdale wrote:
| Your perspective indicates perhaps a bit of spoil... I think
| it's totally fine to not want children but thinking of them as
| spoiling anything by their existence feels to me as profoundly
| wrong as thinking of... well, a person as spoiling anything by
| their existence.
| tacheiordache wrote:
| Perhaps he was referring to something more physical as in her
| body being unspoiled. But I totally agree with you, nobody
| forces people to have children and the ones who have them by
| accident and hate it afterwards is clear they have not
| reached a maturity level or preparedness for being a parent
| and there's nothing wrong with it at all, people have
| choices. But ones who consider children spoils or as curses
| or burdens or thieves of their unmitigated freedoms they used
| to have prior, it's probably for the better to never have
| children for they would be neglected or maltreated one way or
| another.
| ksdale wrote:
| Thinking of your significant other's body being spoiled by
| childbearing is almost as bad as thinking of children's
| existence as spoiling things. Maybe worse.
| onemoresoop wrote:
| Obviously, to each their own. But what do you mean by your wife
| being unspoiled? The way you expressed yourself you make it
| sound like she's still a maiden.
| dang wrote:
| Ok, but putting this comment in this thread is not only off
| topic but basically trolling. Please don't do that on HN.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| bluedays wrote:
| >Paradoxically, we found that fathers who activate the anterior
| cingulate the most when listening to infant crying report the
| most negative emotional responses to those cries, in particular
| being more likely to label the cry as spoiled or manipulative.
| How can greater engagement of a brain region associated with
| empathy be linked with such negative subjective reactions to the
| cry? We suspect it relates to a phenomenon known as 'empathic
| overarousal', in which an observer takes on the distress of
| another individual to such an extent that they become mired in
| personal distress, which in turn interferes with the motivation
| and ability to deliver compassionate care. There might be an
| optimal state of arousal and degree of empathy, neither too high
| nor too low, that facilitates sensitive and responsive fathering.
|
| I experienced this first hand. The newborn phase was really hard
| for me. I'm glad to know the reason for this, as I've always only
| ever understood it in a handwavy "male postpartum depression"
| sort of way
| yellowstuff wrote:
| I don't see this as paradoxical. For babies past a couple
| months old a lot of cries are actually manipulative, and a more
| empathetic person can better distinguish them. I think my wife
| and I started sleeping training our son at around 12 weeks old,
| and quickly learned to tell the difference between a
| "complaining" cry that meant he was unhappy but he could
| probably soothe himself, and a "real" cry that meant he was
| really upset and needed our attention. Both of those were quite
| different from the sharp cries that indicated physical pain or
| something very distressing.
| christophilus wrote:
| Did you have a hard time convincing your wife to do sleep
| training on your kid? My wife thinks it's abusive. I think
| it's abusive to everyone else in the house _not_ to do it!
| watwut wrote:
| Whether it is abusive 100% depends on how your kids reacts.
| Some will stop crying and with cry hard anyway. Others will
| cry for over 2 hours super strong (and then friend who had
| such kid decided this wont be done again).
|
| Babies are not copies, they react in various ways.
| oblio wrote:
| From what I see/hear/experience, every kid is different.
|
| As some stranger on the internet said:
|
| "After I had my first kid, I thought I was God's gift to
| parenting. A few years later I had a second kid and he
| cured me of such misconceived notions." :-D
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| This reminds me of Thanksgiving at my brother's house. He
| has 3 teenage sons, and they were all super helpful while
| we were there.
|
| My wife asked him how he raised such helpful kids and he
| said: bribery. If they behaved well and helped with
| things they would be getting a video game of their
| choice.
| endymi0n wrote:
| Don't know. Thought the same, but my wife said one thing
| that stuck with me: "Life's short. They'll leave on their
| own anyway and then you'll miss this".
|
| I gave in and still put our 4 and 6 year olds to sleep in
| our big family bed, then teleport them later. After being a
| bit annoyed in the beginning, I've changed my mind by now.
| Bringing them to bed is honestly the best thing ever.
| watwut wrote:
| A couple months old baby is not capable to be manipulative.
| That requires reasoning, predicting and emphating abilities
| they don't have.
| oblio wrote:
| I don't know why you're being downvoted, it's pretty much
| documented. I think it's at around 6 months when they start
| being able to connect the dots... barely :-)
| colechristensen wrote:
| Deception doesn't require consciousness or reasoning. I
| feel like there are many different personal definitions for
| manipulation here and people are just disagreeing
| indirectly on that.
| crankyoldcrank wrote:
| I have a sibling with a degree in early childhood development
| and what you're describing is what she told me is called,
| colloquially where we're from, "cry it out" parenting, and it
| can result in negative outcomes related to the child's
| attachment style and their ability to form relationships even
| into adulthood.
|
| Babies that are not attended to when crying, alone at night
| in a separate room, are more likely to develop an attachment
| style similar to a child who has been abandoned by their
| parents.
|
| It's really not healthy. Now, I'm not an expert either, but
| my sister is and you'd get an earful from her for your
| comment as it is potentially very harmful advice.
|
| I hope readers here hear my concern more than anything: don't
| take parenting advice from random people on HN! If you're
| considering "cry it out" parenting, or its inverse,
| attachment parenting, talk to a professional before ignoring
| your crying baby because it's "manipulative" or "can soothe
| itself". We're talking about a developmental stage that comes
| before -object permanence- and the comment above refers to
| -emotional manipulation- from an infant?
|
| Please folks, try to understand when you're talking about
| something outside of your field...
| kaitai wrote:
| I really dislike projecting the adult trait of "manipulative"
| onto a baby. Adults manipulate by being underhanded when they
| have the option of being straightforward. The baby is being
| straightforward. What do you want the kid to do to
| communicate? "I am unhappy and while I could probably soothe
| myself I would like a parent's attention" -- hard to say all
| those words when you don't have language. What else can the
| kid do? Get a pet? drink whiskey? send you a text message?
| call a therapist?
|
| Crying is a baby's only tool, and babies are certainly
| allowed to feel emotions like boredom, disgust, annoyance,
| cold, as well as physical pain. You're also allowed to ignore
| your bored or upset child. But don't call it manipulation
| when the kid is being absolutely aboveboard and
| straightforward. Viewing it as 'manipulation' actually
| increases the likelihood, in my view, that you'll raise a
| duplicitous child, because from babyhood on the kid'll be
| taught that saying directly what you want is frowned upon.
|
| As for sleep training, mentioned by a sibling commenter, our
| reactions to a baby's cries are definitely directly related
| to kid's bedtime patterns, and I would advocate for a middle
| road: there's no need to be rigid about a philosophy. With
| our kid, we'd wait five minutes for crying to stop. Any kid
| and any adult can wait out five minutes when it's just
| bedtime, not a question of physical distress. If the kid was
| still crying after five minutes, check in; if the kid is
| asleep, win! The kid knows they're not being abandoned for
| all eternity; you know you don't have to listen to this (*&
| forever; and we were lucky that it never took us more than 15
| minutes (two checkins) before kid fell asleep. Children are
| different; YMMV.
| ryanar wrote:
| I read that too and was similarly interested. When babysitting
| our niece who is <1 year old over night, I was able to handle
| the incessant crying really well and try to figure out how to
| alleviate it, or just ride it out while holding her. My wife
| had to remove herself because it was causing her a ton of
| distress from hearing the crying. I wonder if she was
| experiencing this empathic overarousal.
| auslegung wrote:
| I remember spending lots of time with my nieces when they
| were newborns and infants, and their cries didn't bother me
| in the least. Now that I have my own, when my own children
| cry I most often want to punch a wall.
| [deleted]
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| Same experience. I wrote it off as a big change and sleep
| deprivation, but there were some days that the cries of my son
| seemed very difficult to deal with. I hadn't had much
| experience with newborns/babies prior.
|
| It could also be generalized anxiety. Mine would take uniquely
| weird forms, including awakening from a dead sleep convinced my
| son was buried/lost somewhere in the house. I'm convinced that
| the biological impulse to care/provide for babies is at the
| firmware-level of our impulses, and, as such, must be something
| that is acclimated to, rather than controlled by executive
| function.
| defen wrote:
| I can relate to the anxiety/firmware thing. I had never
| really experienced that sort of generalized anxiety before,
| but the weird thing for me was that it was preverbal. So I
| couldn't even put it into terms like "buried/lost somewhere";
| it was more like a feeling. Like the feeling you would get in
| your stomach if you showed up to an important class one day
| completely unprepared for a pop quiz. Just that feeling,
| constantly. Luckily for me it was directly correlated with
| (lack of) sleep, so once that got better the feeling went
| away.
| treeman79 wrote:
| Have a sleepwalker. Related to needing to pee. Absolutely
| will end up anywhere in the house, in any bucket or shelf. Or
| out the door. Caught her peeing in Landry buckets, on her
| sisters head, etc.
|
| We have barriers to keep her on top floor. They have to be
| sturdy.
|
| Moment we can get kid to pee she is instantly fully awake,
| confused as to how she got there and goes back to bed for the
| night.
|
| We've leaned to sleep lightly. The moment we hear her first
| stirrings we swoop in and stick her on toilet.
|
| Crazy times
| cgriswald wrote:
| Man, that's rough.
|
| Our kid had night terrors for about a year. Just about the
| time the random worrying stopped happening we started
| getting woken up to blood-curdling screams we couldn't
| really do anything about.
| treeman79 wrote:
| First kid had those. Truly horrifing. Had no idea she
| wasn't awake. All while talking. Faded after A year or
| so.
|
| Second one went 5 years of them. Almost nightly.
| Gradually Shifted to sleepwalking instead. Less dramatic,
| but more dangerous.
|
| Either way exact moment she pee'd it was over.
| civilized wrote:
| This was a big challenge for me raising two little ones. Part
| of it is not even empathy, but being hypersensitive to loud
| distressing noise in general
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| If you have enough kids it's kinda a sink or swim moment: you
| learn to tune it out or go crazy. We have twin 2 year olds and
| a 5 year old. There's been periods of time where there's crying
| (by at least one of them) for most of the day. When you're 1 on
| 3 at these sorts of ages it's inevitable. When 1 starts crying
| in the car and the other 2 start crying because the crying is
| too loud, there's not much you can do but laugh about it.
|
| Take solace in the fact that kids cry over ridiculous stuff.
| For 20 minutes. Because, for example, you peeled their orange
| for them.
| mysterydip wrote:
| Thanks for letting me know I'm not alone. I have a 5yo and
| twin 2yos myself and the dynamic between them drives me crazy
| sometimes.
| [deleted]
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| Haha, I got orange peel cries last week. It's very real.
| knuthsat wrote:
| It's stuff like this that makes me believe even more in my
| opinion that the world is just not built for parents. I just
| cannot believe this is what family life needs to be.
| CalRobert wrote:
| It really isn't. If nothing else, nuclear families and
| living in isolation are dumb. I'd really prefer to live
| next door (or in the same house as) a grandparent, maybe
| uncle/aunt, etc. and we could share the childcare burden -
| watching 4 kids for half a day would be a lot better than 2
| kids all day.
|
| Nevermind that if they play on the street - a perfectly
| normal activity before cars - a driver will kill them :-(
| hising wrote:
| I have three as well (older though, so not the hardship I
| reckon you guys have now). The dynamic is awesome, but also
| crazy at times. You learn to turn on/off. If I would be
| turned on constantly and react to all the noise and yelling I
| would be mentally dead. You learn to snap on in an instant
| when shit gets real. 99 times out of 100 it is just small
| non-essential things though, but sometimes a sound or a lack
| of a sound makes you 100% focused. But most of the time you
| need to turn on the noice cancelling inside your head.
| lqet wrote:
| > Because, for example, you peeled their orange for them.
|
| 1.5 year old daughter wanted to eat the piece of pasta at the
| upper right corner of the plate last week. Couldn't manage to
| get it on the spoon. I helped her, but picked the
| (equivalent) piece of pasta next to it. The combination of
| frustration and anger over having the eat the _wrong piece of
| pasta_ because she wasn 't capable to get the right one on
| the spoon was too much for her.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| I've been there and it's pretty annoying in the moment, but
| the sometimes I really sympathize with their lack of agency
| and control over their environment. Littles ones are
| surrounded by people who can seemingly do whatever they
| need or want to, while the little one is relegated to
| struggling to get the piece of pasta they want off their
| plate.
|
| Not saying this makes it any less frustrating when you need
| to get them fed, bathe them, brush their teeth, read them a
| book, and put them to sleep by 7:30 but it's already 7:25
| and they're losing their shit over a noodle
| bluedays wrote:
| She's three now. I can definitely relate to the orange thing.
| wmwmwm wrote:
| Our 3 year old had a total meltdown yesterday because I
| brought him his toothbrush and toothpaste, but in the wrong
| hands! When you're tired it's so easy to take this stuff
| personally and then all of a sudden you remember that
| there's this little person whose brain is catching up with
| their emotions and suddenly it's a lot easier to be
| sympathetic, philosophical and fascinated, even by the
| tantrums!
| geerlingguy wrote:
| The orange thing happened last night here. Wife peeled pith
| of, 4 yo went ballistic for 10 minutes.
| kody wrote:
| My wife and I are working from home and raising our 6 month old
| daughter, and the -only- distraction that brings me to a
| grinding halt is my daughter's crying. Even with noise-
| cancelling headphones, if I hear any crying at all I feel an
| incredible emotional reaction that totally prevents me from
| focusing on work until she's calm and happy again. I'm also
| glad to read that there's a natural (hormonal?) explanation for
| the disproportionate effect that her crying has on me.
| mattlondon wrote:
| Same here with a 9 month old. I can tune out the general
| noise, but there are certain cries that 100% short-circuit my
| brain and dissolve any semblance of focus or ability to
| concentrate.
|
| Some days, by the time baby is asleep my nerves are just
| utterly shot by trying to concentrate around the crying.
| jedimastert wrote:
| > The newborn phase was really hard for me
|
| So many people led me to believe that I would fall in love with
| my kid the instant I first laid eyes on her, and it simply
| wasn't the case. I love her so much now, but it definitely
| wasn't the immediate flip of a switch that some may believe
| jedimastert wrote:
| Looking back, I think the issue here is that most of the
| people who give me (mostly unsolicited) parenting advice (
| _VERY MUCH MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE INCOMING_ ) is sub-urban
| middle-aged moms, who genuinely have no idea that this
| reaction is a biological one specific to females and the
| child-birth process.
| endymi0n wrote:
| I also really, really wasn't into babies before becoming a
| father, then when they were there, it was actually kinda okay
| -- but now that they can talk, reason and you can mess with
| them, it's definitely _so_ much cooler.
|
| What's interesting though is that for me, having spent time
| with a baby seems to have changed some wirings retroactively.
| Just saw a toddler yesterday doing random things and having
| so much fun in the puddles, it was reeeeally cute. Good
| memories.
|
| What nobody tells you though is that annoyingness and
| cuteness go hand in hand. As soon as they stop being
| annoying, they also stop being cute. It's hard to enjoy much
| of that cuteness because life's generally hard, loud and
| exhausting with a toddler. But as soon as it starts getting
| better, you also realize how much you miss that will never
| come back.
|
| As Paul Graham said so wisely: There are only 52 weekends you
| will ever have with your three year old. Life is short, use
| it. Or at the very least, try to :)
| oblio wrote:
| > There are only 52 weekends you will ever have with your
| three year old.
|
| I'm confused. Shouldn't it be 156?
| [deleted]
| sacred_numbers wrote:
| Not while they are exactly three years old. There will be
| 52 weekends with a one year old, 52 weekends with a two
| year old, etc.
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| They're only 3.00 to 3.99 years old for 52 weeks
| nultxt wrote:
| In 104 of those weekends, they're not 3
| Tsiklon wrote:
| I think the idea is that your three year old is going to
| be a very different four year old, who again was
| different to who they were as a two year old.
| polotics wrote:
| The first 104, she wasn't three yet...
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| Same with me. I think a few people overstate the feeling of
| their new bond to the point that it's supposedly become
| normal.
| cgriswald wrote:
| I also wonder if people are talking about different things.
|
| It's difficult for me to overstate the emotional impact at
| the moment of the birth of my kid. It was intense and
| powerful. I've never felt anything like it, before or
| since. There was definitely _something_ there.
|
| But the bond didn't come for me until I could actually
| _interact_ with this other human being. Offering a bottle
| and hearing a coo in response didn 't really do it. Playing
| peekaboo was sort of the beginning for me, I guess.
|
| I could definitely see someone conflating or confusing the
| two experiences.
| kody wrote:
| Anecdotally, all of my father friends felt the exact same
| way.
| christophilus wrote:
| I've never felt that way about any of my kids, nor have my
| (male) friends of theirs. I don't know if it's a guy thing or
| not. My daughter was the closest I got to those warm fuzzies.
| My two sons... I found them more irritating than anything
| else for the first six months or so.
| [deleted]
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| > The bodies and brains of fathers, not just mothers, are
| transformed through the love and labour of raising a child
|
| There is a clear link in emotional bonding and hormonal changes
| of mothers associated with pregnancy and labour. At face value it
| sounds nice that fathers also experience hormonal changes due to
| bonding with their children.
|
| However, I couldn't find any reference to the confounding of
| fathers just experiencing a T drop _caused_ by sleep deprivation?
| jacobush wrote:
| And for mothers?
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| There is a well estabilished hormonal link betwen
| pregnancy/labour and mother child bonding. [0] My point is
| that they seem to make the leap that a male equivalent _must_
| exist for father bonding.
|
| What I question is if this hormonal change (T drop) in males
| is not just due to sleep deprivation, rather than some
| unknown/unclear male bonding mechanism.
|
| [0] https://www.nct.org.uk/labour-birth/your-guide-
| labour/hormon...
| CapitalistCartr wrote:
| I became a dad quite late in life, at 55. It's been an eye-
| opener. After several months I suddenly realized I'd _kill and
| die_ for this little bundle. Then it occurred to me that most, if
| not all, of these parents walking around me are the same.
|
| Being a dad has led me to consider it carefully. I've concluded
| that, since humans are terrible at long-term planning, deferment
| of benefit, and putting the benefit of the group ahead of
| personal gain. So Darwin doesn't rely on any of that, or any
| decision-making at all. Parenting a baby/small child pushes a
| _lot_ of major buttons in humans. Hard. Like no drug ever. It is
| its own reward, which is good; children aren 't known for their
| gratefulness.
| portobell0 wrote:
| The first episode of the Netflix show Babies covers almost
| exactly this material.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOv5jDFtvsI
| blobbers wrote:
| This lowering testosterone thing - does this explain the decline
| of athletes when they become parents? I don't know if a 20%
| decrease in testosterone has a material effect on the body's
| ability to produce and maintain muscle mass.
|
| Any Doctors out there? Does it explain the dad-bod?
| ncmncm wrote:
| Sleep deprivation has long been known to cause memory loss. My
| kids, in the early '00s, would only sleep in the daytime. I lost
| most of my '90s.
| andi999 wrote:
| thankfully everybody lost most of the '90s
| oblio wrote:
| Half this site is probably Millenials, which are 90's kids
| :-)
| lambda_obrien wrote:
| I agree with most of the comments here as a semi-new father, so I
| won't rehash then, but I really wish more people could experience
| the emotions and struggles of parenthood sooner, I think it makes
| a person realize what's important in life and causes one to
| mature quickly. I think people would be nicer to one another if
| they could be a parent for a year, at least.
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| > _I think people would be nicer to one another if they could
| be a parent for a year, at least._
|
| Eh. I've seen other parents be just as shitty as anyone else. I
| don't think parenthood is an empathy-panacea.
| brundolf wrote:
| I'd be curious to see a study on whether pet-parentship has some
| of the same chemical effects. Oxytocin obviously comes into it,
| and since having a dog I've found myself developing certain
| parental instincts. I had a realization the other day that for
| the first time in my life, I knew I would put myself in harm's
| way without a second thought if I had to.
| ohitsdom wrote:
| If you enjoy this, I'd recommend The Boy Crisis by Warren Farrell
| and John Gray. A lot of really interesting material on being a
| dad and specifically parenting boys (but a lot of the benefit
| also extends to women obviously). At first the material felt a
| little too "men's rights!" to me, but there really are a
| significant amount of culture deficiencies in raising men to be
| fathers.
| hi41 wrote:
| When we has our first child, it came as a total shock as to the
| amount of work that was needed. I was completely unprepared for
| it. Added to my wife's work schedule and mine, I was stuck
| between changing diapers and kitchen. I absolutely HATED
| fatherhood. Did anyone have the same experience and how did you
| overcome the frustration to become a good father.
| smegcicle wrote:
| > Added to my wife's work schedule
|
| There's your problem.
|
| The idea that women have a moral right to enter the workforce
| being used as an argument against their necessity in the full
| time job of raising their own children is nonsensical.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't attack other users (especially not over
| personally intimate topics like parenting), and please don't
| take HN threads into generic flamewar.
| smegcicle wrote:
| I suppose it could be read as an attack on the poster, but
| I meant it much more as an attack on the expectation of
| raising kids working out easily in that situation, as
| indicated in the latter sentence.
|
| Given the context of 'hating fatherhood', pointing that out
| seems relevant.
| kaitai wrote:
| You're attacking women's right to enter the workforce,
| which does force a lot of your baggage on women. It's
| unwelcome.
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| I read it as an attack on women.
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| My experience wasn't as bad as yours, but the first year was
| pretty rough. Babies _aren 't_ fun. They eat, shit and cry, and
| that's about it.
|
| The way to overcome it is to sort of just plod on. They grow
| out of the potato stage, and start becoming people you can
| interact with, play with, talk with. For the first few years,
| being a good dad largely consists of keeping your kid alive!
|
| I basically just told myself that it would get better, and
| stage by stage it did. Mine's nearly five now, and there are
| still a lot of challenges, but it's nowhere as difficult as it
| was for the first few years. Being a good dad is actually
| _harder_ in some ways now now, because it requires more mental
| and emotional commitment, vs. just being able to deal with
| sleep deprivation and isolation, but also easier in a lot of
| ways because they 're a person you can _do things_ with.
| MaximumYComb wrote:
| Babies aren't meant to be fun. I became a single dad when I had
| a baby and a two year old. Honestly, I don't think most men are
| wired for doing this role. The 4-5 years that followed were
| very difficult for me mentally. I was socially isolated, had no
| support (all support structures were mother orientated) and I
| had two really little kids to care for.
|
| I'm not sure if I changed, or it's simply easier for me now
| they're a bit older, but over time I had merged into this
| parenting role really well. My kids are both happy and well
| balanced, other kids and adults both like them and they're
| doing really well at school.
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| > Honestly, I don't think most men are wired for doing this
| role... I was socially isolated, had no support (all support
| structures were mother orientated)
|
| Maybe it's the social structures that aren't wired for men to
| do it, rather than the biological ones. What made you feel
| like the difference was biological rather than due to
| external society?
| snazz wrote:
| Biologically, I think that there are always going to be
| more single mothers than single fathers. Women can get
| pregnant without knowing who the father is. Although
| formula exists today, men could not feed young babies very
| well for most of history. These social structures are
| probably intended to serve a greater number of people, so
| they serve women better than men.
| watwut wrote:
| It is mentally difficult for mothers too. Like isolation,
| there is reason why the stereotype of woman used to be
| constantly on the phone. Or taking a lot after husband came
| from work.
|
| Single parenthood is even harder, it sounds that you have
| done good job with them.
| MaximumYComb wrote:
| Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it's not hard on mother's
| too. I meant that they seem to have a better hormonal
| reward system with babies. Mother's seem really happy
| cuddling their little ones and adult women tend to enjoy
| cuddling babies compare to adult men. I didn't have that
| same connection with mine so I didn't get reward, at the
| time, for my efforts.
| watwut wrote:
| I did not meant to imply that you implied, you did not.
|
| Just that the a lot of those frustrating and isolating
| aspects are not that you are less made or less capable
| for it, it is shared frustration and depression. Tho,
| advantage of being mom is that you can find other mom to
| complain to. I agree it is harder for men who are less
| likely to be in that position.
|
| Hormonal things are more after birth. Moms can also get
| "touched out" when you don't want touch anymore. Some of
| cuddling is really done because you know it is good for
| kids.
|
| I don't want to be the one who will say your experience
| of being uncomfortable more does not exists. It is way
| more ok for women to touch other women them males
| touching other males. These aspects are much different
| between genders.
|
| Imo, a lot of women specific socialization is really
| about teaching women how to break isolation etc. It is
| the thing I realized only after I had kids. A lot of
| stereotypes were actually adaptation.
| AlphaOne1 wrote:
| I will be the first to admit that becoming a father was a
| difficult transition. One book that I recommend that all
| fathers read is The Boy Crisis. With the usual disclaimer that
| I do not agree with everything the author states, it greatly
| helped me see what a crucial role I have in raising our kids
| (my wife and I were blessed with 5 children, including 2 sets
| of twins). Interestingly, the first baby was by far the hardest
| transition because we both felt trapped in our new roles. Now
| that we are a few years in, it has been extremely rewarding to
| watch our kids mature. My wife and I have spent hours
| discussing this topic and we agree that fatherhood in general
| is not well understood in society today. The book helped me to
| understand my unique role as a father in raising our kids. My
| wife and I share a similar value system but are often baffled
| by how different our approach is to parenting. I might sound
| antiquated but I really think we compliment each other in how
| we approach our children.
|
| Oh and one side note: the single most important quality of life
| change that my wife and I made was to get our kids to go to bed
| early. We now have them all in bed by 7:30 PM so the rest of
| the evening we have to ourselves. This takes discipline on our
| part especially after a long day at work but the kids are much
| happier with more sleep (even though it can sometimes be a
| battle to get them to stay in bed).
|
| Overtime you will be surprised at how much progress you can
| make. Try and enjoy the little things in life. Since I'm in
| medicine, most of my life has been a whirlwind of activity:
| having kids has forced me to slow down and appreciate life in a
| new way. One small example, is that the highlight of my week is
| seeing my kids super excited for the homemade pancakes I make
| on Saturdays. It gives mom a break :)
|
| Being a father gets better with time and I will say that
| parenting is the most important and rewarding undertaking of my
| life, even more so than programming or graduating medical
| school. Good luck and remember you are not alone there are
| literally millions of other fathers out there with similar
| struggles!
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