[HN Gopher] That's not why I did it
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That's not why I did it
Author : MaysonL
Score : 145 points
Date : 2020-11-24 05:43 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (weaversew.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (weaversew.com)
| draw_down wrote:
| A fun read. I do think it's possible to learn this lesson too
| well, though. Sometimes it really is better to just cut your
| losses, and the only thing stopping you is pride.
| yobert wrote:
| I see why this got downvoted because it seems rude at a
| superficial glance. I vouched for it because I think it's worth
| discussing a very important distinction here.
|
| What's important isn't that you tilt at windmills or beat a
| dead horse. Notice that nowhere in the story does either her or
| her daughter suggest the other do the work to fix it.
|
| The importance is in recognizing what you truly want. Sometimes
| people don't have the self reflection, perception, or foresight
| to realize the joy they might get out of some damn hard work.
|
| Also this comment has an interesting vibe in the classical
| "pride is bad" sense. I think it can be bad in the sense that
| it usually describes like a narcissist kind of pride when it's
| used negatively. But this is clearly a justified pride in
| oneself-- pride in not only overcoming adversity, but enjoying
| it immensely.
| draw_down wrote:
| Well, I used the word "sometimes" for a reason, not to say
| that this story was one of those times. It does feel good to
| do this kind of involved work sometimes, I completely agree.
| My admonition is that just because it feels good doesn't
| always make it the right move.
|
| And yeah, I think it's bad to let pride get in the way of
| doing what makes sense. Just crazy like that I guess!
| rossdavidh wrote:
| True that. But, in this case (and many others), the decision is
| impacted by both the sunk cost fallacy (your point), but also
| the "I don't like looking at that mess I made so let's just
| throw it out" fallacy. Just because it makes you feel bad
| looking at it, doesn't mean throwing it out is the best answer.
| Sometimes, jumping in and spending the time is the best answer.
|
| Of course, if there's a rule for how to avoid both of those
| errors, I haven't found it. But it's helpful at least to know
| that they both exist.
| bonkabonka wrote:
| I think it might depend on your goals - the old, "The Journey
| is the Reward" chestnut.
|
| She mentioned a couple of times that she went into the tangle
| because she wanted to, that she hadn't had to "bail a loom out
| of a major temper tantrum" in a while.
|
| To be sure, recovering the 1 1/2 yard Shetland warp and other
| materials would in no way compensate 10 hours of labor - but
| that presumes there's nothing to learn from the process.
|
| I want to say something surly about how accountants have driven
| software development to losing its soul in pursuit of dollars
| but ... that's not going to end constructively. =D So instead
| I'll just say I really admire the attitude of, "I can fix that.
| It will take more time than it's worth but screw the economics
| of it all, I'm going to do it anyway. Fsck you, entropy."
| thedanbob wrote:
| This is the same reason I enjoy repairing electronics and
| machines so much. Even if it doesn't look good as new or the fix
| is a little bit of a kludge, it is incredibly satisfying to take
| something broken and return it to working order. And like the
| author, once I get started on a repair I can't stand to stop
| until it's done.
| legerdemain wrote:
| Yes, it is very easy to get absorbed in a mindless, repetitive
| task. You'll feel superficially productive afterwards, but what
| did it all amount to?
|
| I once spent several hours grepping and changing every instance
| of `if (foo != true)` in a multi-million LOC codebase. Was it a
| good use of my time? Not at all.
| rzzzt wrote:
| What did you change it to?
| muricula wrote:
| This is pure speculation, but they may have changed it to
| foo==false. In C a boolean is just a byte which
| conventionally has the values 0 or 1, but an attacker which
| controls a boolean can give it the value of 2, and 2!=true
| and 2!=false. This has lead to real exploits:
| https://windows-internals.com/exploiting-a-simple-
| vulnerabil...
|
| When writing C or C++, never compare against true.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| I'm not sure that's right.
|
| Too lazy to look it up right now, but my recollection is
| that in C, 0 is False and _anything else_ is True.
| stonemetal12 wrote:
| if 47 evaluates the true branch. So in that sense you are
| correct, however standard C99 (the above mentioned bug
| uses win32's TRUE which is defined the same way) does
| #define true 1 therefore 47==true is false, even if 47 is
| true when evaluated. Therefore:
|
| int a = 47;
|
| if a is true
|
| if a == true is false
|
| if a == false is false
| serial_dev wrote:
| I'd guess if(!foo). It makes sense in some languages where
| the value can only be either true or false. It will lead to
| nasty bugs if the value can be null, or the language has
| truthy-falsy values and the condition accepts non bool values
| rzzzt wrote:
| You and muricula's sibling comment is the reason I asked :)
| Occasionally it is hard to spot the "!" between "if" and
| "(", and having to figure out if it is an omission or it
| was deliberate. I was wondering if spelling it out as "foo
| == false" is worthwhile.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| At one job I had, our programming standards dictated that
| we would have to write "if (false == foo)" to account for
| the case where someone accidentally types = instead of ==
| zentiggr wrote:
| That's not rare, anyway... unless the linter can flag ==
| <bool>, and suggest fixes.
| yobert wrote:
| I think it can be good for you to do this kind of work once in
| a while. I like to sort my M&Ms.
|
| But! From a technical perspective, I would never ever do this.
| It's likely to causes merge conflicts on every single pending
| branch anyone has. I would recommend only changing the area you
| are working on. Leave it better than you found it, but don't
| rock the canoe so to speak.
| legerdemain wrote:
| This is one good purpose for video games. If you have an
| uncontrollable urge to do something mindless, at least do it
| safely in a simulated environment.
| robocat wrote:
| Definitely not a good use of your time in many languages!
| Because `if (!foo)` is only equivalent given a language where
| foo can only be a Boolean type (I'm guessing you were using
| Java?).
|
| In more weakly typed languages null/NaN special cases and type
| conversion rules make it very hard to safely rewrite `if (foo
| != true)`.
| emilecantin wrote:
| Archive.org link as the site seems hugged to death:
| https://web.archive.org/web/20201125175036/https://weaversew...
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| > One of the samples Brianna decided to weave, was exploring what
| happens when you use differential sett with really slippery
| rayon, warp and weft, and then slippery rayon warp and a dragging
| kind of weft like Shetland wool. The sample with the slippery
| rayon warp, though challenging, was completely successful. She
| then wound a warp with the Shetland wool, and the idea was she
| would tie into the rayon warp and repeat the experiment with a
| rayon weft and a wool weft, producing an additional two samples.
|
| The jargon! Is this what tech talk sounds like to outsiders?
| bonkabonka wrote:
| Ayup! Totally like that. And I'm sure they have their own sort
| of correction-reflex for "My computer has 1TB of memory!" -
| "Oh, you mean you have 1TB of storage." - "Same thing." - "No.
| It's not. _eyeroll_ "
| drivers99 wrote:
| In a computer engineering class (but nowhere else really), I
| heard storage can be called "secondary memory"[1] so they're
| technically correct, without knowing it.
|
| [1] as mentioned here for instance
| https://techterms.com/definition/secondary_memory
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I've not seen it that way, but I've seen memory called
| "primary storage." Historically storage and memory have
| been used fairly interchangeably, but when talking about a
| modern PC, "storage" usually implies disk (or disc, or
| nvme) and "memory" implies specifically the DRAM.
| korethr wrote:
| I think I spent more time watching video snippets and reading
| portions of other articles to give myself a lightning course
| on weaving jargon, just so I could understand what was being
| talked about in the OP. And suddenly, why looms look as
| complex as they do and are able to weave complex patterns
| makes sense. Why looms were automated makes sense, and I find
| myself with a new sense of respect for those who learn and
| master operation of a manual loom. It's not a trivial task.
|
| Still haven't been able to figure out what a "differential
| sett" is. Searching with quotes on google finds a bunch of
| stuff talking about '"differential sett"lement'. Or stuff
| about Egypt. Best guess is that it has something to do with
| using a number of threads per inch that is different from
| what is set on the reed, or differs across the breadth of the
| warp.
| hansvm wrote:
| Off-topic: one of my favorite dev environments had a half
| terrabyte of memory, and it was _fantastic_ for prototyping
| -- we rarely had to be bothered with disk spillover or any of
| the other time sucks that arise in low-RAM environments.
| IshKebab wrote:
| It's barely jargon. I think a lot of people know that rayon is
| a type of fibre, and warp and weft are the directions of weave.
| I don't know what sett is, but I think it's mostly hard to
| parse because it's not very clearly written.
| bussierem wrote:
| It's barely jargon. I think a lot of people know that Haskell
| is a pure functional language, and arrays and hash maps are
| both examples of functors. I don't know what a monad is, but
| I think it's mostly hard to parse because it's not clearly
| written.
|
| I would challenge you to share this with a non-developer
| friend and see what they think about that statement. You
| should consider what your personal experiences are with
| something before making such rather aloof statements towards
| others.
| cortesoft wrote:
| I LOVE hearing jargon from a world I know nothing about, and
| trying to piece it all together from context.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| I am a developer, and I was once in a meeting full of
| scientists who work on gene sequencers. One of them, in what
| context I forget, referred to me as the "tech guy". I thought
| to myself, "I'm in a room full of scientists who work on gene
| sequencing, and I'm the tech guy? I thought I was the least
| technical person in this room."
|
| I've had similar experiences with people who know the magazine
| industry, the custom steel door industry, the ad agency
| business, and several others. They all have their own language,
| and they all think that I'm the tech guy, and I know I'm the
| only one in the room who doesn't understand what we're talking
| about. :)
| nullsense wrote:
| You were the tech guy. They were the biotech guys/gals.
| Tade0 wrote:
| I spent new year's eve 2019/2020 with a group of weavers. The
| jargon is strong in them and to make matters worse, IT borrowed
| a few terms (like "thread"), so their conversations were
| especially confusing to me.
| MaysonL wrote:
| This is my sister-in-law's blog, and it's about weaving,and
| somewhat technical. But the lessons it teaches cam apply to a lot
| more than weaving...
| peter_l_downs wrote:
| Thank you for sharing this, very good story.
| cjcenizal wrote:
| This was my favorite part, because I'm new to engineering
| management and this is a lesson I've been learning:
|
| > Brianna did manage to beam and weave the new samples. She did
| as I suspected have to cull some of the warps in the densest part
| of the reed. But she learned that on her own. And she also
| learned that when tying in a new warp, you should use overhand
| knots. But kids learn by falling flat on their faces and picking
| themselves up and reevaluating the experience.
|
| People learn when you give them the opportunity to fail. This has
| been a tough lesson for me to learn because I'm used to
| successful outcomes being visible -- a feature is complete, a bug
| is fixed, a project ships. But when someone successfully learns,
| the outcome is internalized and usually only manifests the next
| time they take on a similar challenge, so I just gotta wait and
| see!
| ericmcer wrote:
| The daughters goof reminds me of a quote from Lawrence Durrell:
| 'She showed him the difference between knowledge and
| understanding'.
|
| The idea of this ingrained understanding from experience is so
| much more intriguing to me than trying to pull knowledge together
| with the conscious mind. I like the idea of the conscious brain
| orchestrating the training regime for the subconscious, but once
| it is time to perform it just steps back and watches.
| 3pt14159 wrote:
| This is one of my favourite posts on Hacker News of all time.
| There are so many obvious lessons for the very definition of a
| programmer of any skill level to learn in this metaphor that it
| feels hollow in comparison to how beautiful the story is to life
| itself; even though that secondary comparison is quite valid in
| its own right.
|
| Thanks for sharing.
| exmadscientist wrote:
| And for anyone who doesn't realize why your mention of
| "programmer" is completely appropriate here in discussing an
| article about weaving, I can only suggest a link:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_machine
| rektide wrote:
| Mariko Kasako had a lovely talk on weaving, punch cards, &
| her own neat DIY work. Fun talk, some good history there too,
| with a bit of the modern too. The Jacquard loom is featured!
|
| https://youtu.be/e7wwuZnnM9k
| greenyoda wrote:
| In particular, this passage about asserting control over chaos
| resonated with me, as a software developer:
|
| > _I sort of think that it has to do with creating calm in
| chaos. There is so little in the world that we have any control
| over. But what happens at our looms, that thing, we have
| control over. And if what happens on our looms becomes total
| chaos, then patience, tenacity, and time will make it work.
| That's why I did it._
|
| Also, here are explanations of some of the weaving terms used
| in the article:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaving#Process_and_terminolog...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_and_weft
| renewiltord wrote:
| Reminds me of a (kinda downvoted and I understand) comment on HN
| that I take inspiration from when things get tough. Not the same
| sentiment but there's a stylistic similarity. Paraphrasing,
|
| "You know what made me give up programming? It wasn't that the
| classes assumed knowledge already. It wasn't that I was bullied
| for it. It wasn't that I didn't fit the mold of an engineer.
| Nothing. Nothing made me give up programming".
|
| Reminds me that the world is tough. Societally, making it easier
| to do some things is worthwhile. But personally, personally if
| you want something, you just go get it. And damn the rest of them
| in your way.
| [deleted]
| broberts01 wrote:
| Privacy preferences seem to be borked
| CarVac wrote:
| This reminds me of a time when I was working at Target and my
| manager let me spend an hour to straighten out the shelves for
| spices, which were horrendously disorganized, with incredibly
| incorrect inventory counts.
|
| That was one of the most satisfying things I've ever done,
| sorting every tiny container, counting them, backstocking the
| excess, marking the empty shelves, straightening the guides...
|
| Pure bliss.
| iamdbtoo wrote:
| This is the same feeling I get from playing Satisfactory.
| PapaSpaceDelta wrote:
| If you can gain the same enjoyment vicariously, you might enjoy
| SouthernASMR's channel - she often tidies up the shelves of the
| stores that she visits. Here's a playlist of her Nail Polish
| organisation videos:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TsxWuFsy3I&list=PL7SQKahkOA...
| zentiggr wrote:
| Every time I/we have gone to the craft store we like, I have to
| fight the urge to reset the 12 feet of 9, 10 shelves high with
| all the 2oz paint bottles. All numbered, with placards the
| length of the shelf, 2 inches per bottle, and omg, just to sit
| and start at the top left and normalize the whole section...
| sigh.
|
| I envy you that experience :)
| ericmcer wrote:
| That sounds great. When I worked grocery we used to joke about
| getting everything perfect on the shelves and then just sealing
| the store up.
|
| After long enough the empty shelves, spills, and broken items
| sort of blended together and the customers who caused them did
| not matter, like the store itself was alive and we were tending
| to its habitual needs.
| bvcvbuiy wrote:
| I love this feeling as well. Reading this I actually realized
| that is a big part of what I like in my role as a data
| scientist. You are given a ton of messy data and during months
| you get a very intimate knowledge about how your data reflects
| the business processes, you understand every edge case, and end
| up building a nice data model that allows to answer many
| question that had previously no answer with a simple SELECT
| FROM WHERE statement. Very satisfying.
| svat wrote:
| I'm reminded of a post called _Music and Lyrics in Math Talks_
| (https://sites.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/Opinion78.html) by the
| mathematician Doron Zeilberger:
|
| > _Human beings have bodies and souls. Computers have hardware
| and software, and math talks have lyrics and music. Most math
| talks have very hard-to-follow lyrics, [...]_
|
| > _But like a good song, and a good opera, you can still enjoy it
| if the music is good. The "music" in a math talk is the speaker's
| enthusiasm, body-language, and off-the-cuff heuristic
| explanations._
|
| > _Sometimes you can recognize a familiar word, and relate it to
| something of your own experience, whether or not the meaning that
| you attribute to it is what the speaker meant, and this can also
| enhance your enjoyment._
|
| I think of this often (e.g.
| https://shreevatsa.wordpress.com/2009/03/20/music-and-lyrics...).
| This post here is a wonderful example. Although the _lyrics_ here
| are beyond my understanding:
|
| > _I decided that the best way out, was to carefully pull the
| warps that ended up in front of the reed, since they were only 1
| 1 /2 yards, and resleying them where required (because this was a
| differential sett warp, there were dents where there were as many
| as five ends) and then carefully tying them back into the
| slippery rayon warps that went through the heddles, one by one._
|
| the whole post is clearly pulsing with the kind of _music_ that
| speaks to a programmer 's soul. I remember one of our CS
| textbooks, in the chapter running through some history, had half
| a page on Jacquard's loom
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jacquard_machine&...
| ); evidently the similarity in spirit between programming and
| weaving runs deep. This is most evident in some paragraphs:
|
| > _I sort of think that it has to do with creating calm in chaos.
| There is so little in the world that we have any control over.
| But what happens at our looms, that thing, we have control over.
| And if what happens on our looms becomes total chaos, then
| patience, tenacity, and time will make it work. That's why I did
| it._
|
| > _[...] I did it because there is something intensely satisfying
| about bringing order to chaos. There is something intense about
| saving a project. I had my doubts that this was even weaveable
| [...] I grabbed my 5X glasses, a magnifying OTT lite, and a sley
| hook and started in. 10 hours later I was triumphant._
|
| ...but really, one can sense this throughout the entire post. I'm
| glad I read it.
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(page generated 2020-11-25 23:01 UTC)