[HN Gopher] 30 years later, QBasic is still the best
___________________________________________________________________
30 years later, QBasic is still the best
Author : ohjeez
Score : 129 points
Date : 2020-11-28 18:32 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nicolasbize.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nicolasbize.com)
| krm01 wrote:
| The warm feeling inside when I just see the word "QBasic". Prior
| to QBasic I was always drawing and tinkering with physical
| objects. QBasic made me realize that computers are just an other
| canvas. One where you aren't just a consumer but a tool that
| allows you to contribute, create art, build useful little
| programs and games (to play with my siblings during rainy days).
| As a 10yo then, it felt I could conquer the world. Magical tool.
| makach wrote:
| Basic was, and still is, an excellent language for introduction
| to programming. Yes, there are things you shouldn't do, but that
| applies to every programming language.
|
| There is nothing quite so simple, pure and fun as the older
| programming languages. Everything is a little bit bloated today -
| but it is infinitely much better when done right than you could
| ever do with these old languages.
|
| for introduction, kudos! just mastering the branch/loop/return
| you have learned the basics of all programming.
| smcameron wrote:
| One must definitely beware of looking back with rose colored
| glasses. A couple years ago I came across the BASIC source code
| for Oregon Trail, and I thought, "Hmm, might be fun to convert
| it to C." Started poking at it, and... Blargh! It was pretty
| disgusting. I don't think the program, disgusting as it was,
| was really unusual or bad for the time, though, and I am
| certain I wrote similar code on my trusty TI99/4A and thought
| it was just fine at the time. But then I was just a little kid,
| and maybe it's just right for a kid, I don't know.
| oplav wrote:
| I agree. I forget when I first started playing around with
| BASIC, but it helped once I got to high school and had a TI
| graphing calculator. Those calculators have a variant called
| TI-BASIC and I had a lot of fun coding and playing my own
| "Guess A Random Number" game.
| bhauer wrote:
| This is great.
|
| I learned on Basic XE on an Atari XE, then GFA Basic (2, 3, and
| 3.5) on an ST. I still find reading Basic code to be considerably
| easier than most other "starter" languages. GFA was remarkable
| for its time, with its compiled code executing with performance
| rivaling some of the C compilers on the ST.
| zubspace wrote:
| I owe Basic a lot. It got me into programming on our first family
| pc, a Compaq Presario around '94. QBasic was accessible on every
| windows installation from the command prompt. You could read the
| programming guide built into the editor and have your first
| running code shortly after. That was its true power.
|
| One of my first programs was teaching me french words, asking me
| to translate them in a random order until I got them all right.
| It was truly magical.
|
| I also made pixels move, trying to write games, but I quickly ran
| into limitations and problems organizing my code. If you like a
| small challenge, watch a few minutes of this video about a game
| called Noita, where in the beginning Q-Basic was used to create
| some simple physic simulations [1].
|
| It was hacky yes, but I think if you're starting out, it's much
| more important to get something running quickly than learning how
| to do it the right way. When people speak of basic, they always
| seem to have the impression that you're spoiled for life after
| touching it, but I think that's wrong. You can always learn more
| and improve. It's breaking down barriers of entry, which is key.
| A simple editor, with an inbuilt help page and a run button is
| all you need.
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/prXuyMCgbTc?t=102
| cjohansson wrote:
| Same for me, but '93, a different computer model and I borrowed
| a Qbasic manual from my brother who was in college
| wsc981 wrote:
| I like BASIC and recently been thinking it might be nice to do
| some modern game dev on BASIC. My father got me into programming
| on a TI-99/4A [0] machine, so the BASIC language always has a
| place in my heart.
|
| However, I recently also came across a nice game development
| course from Harvard, CS-50 [1] (an _excellent_ course, much
| recommended!). And for CS-50 the Lua language is used in
| combination with the LOVE [2] framework.
|
| After previously dabbling with SpriteKit [3] and Swift I have to
| admit LOVE has been extremely pleasurable and fun to use. It's
| really nice to get some quick results. And you can easily build
| for multiple platforms (iOS, macOS, Windows, Android, ...)
|
| I also love that I'm able to develop just using SublimeText [4],
| a very lightweight editor and pretty serviceable for doing Lua
| dev ... no IDE required, just like BASIC.
|
| It's a nice change of pace from the normal heavy-handed Xamarin
| (C#) / Xcode (Swift/Objective-C) dev that I do in my day-to-day
| work, making "boring" business apps.
|
| ---
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_TI-99/4A
|
| [1]: https://cs50.harvard.edu/games/2018/
|
| [2]: https://love2d.org
|
| [3]: https://developer.apple.com/spritekit/
|
| [4]: https://www.sublimetext.com
| _ph_ wrote:
| There is SmileBasic for the Nintendo Switch.
| dleslie wrote:
| You should check out QuickBasic: https://www.qb64.org/portal/
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| That project name is QB64. QuickBasic is from Microsoft.
| T-hawk wrote:
| +1 for the TI-99/4A, that was my introduction to computers and
| Basic too. I spent quite some hours typing in program listings
| from computer magazines from the library... none of which had
| versions for the TI or ever worked in the TI's odd Basic
| dialect.
| GnarfGnarf wrote:
| Ca. 1990 I wrote an X.25 Network Integrity and Performance System
| (NIPS) in QBasic. It polled the PADS (Packet
| assembler/disassembler) for statistics, and displayed traffic and
| error conditions on the control monitor. Worked great.
| therealmarv wrote:
| I started with GW-BASIC on a PC. QBasic is so modern :D
| salamanderman wrote:
| Ditto.
| mbank wrote:
| Love it! I started out by manipulating simple games in qbasic.
| Then switched to Visual Basic and made my first serious yet small
| projects. In the meantime got into web design and always thought
| I was doing something wrong when creating a UI with HTML & co -
| so painful compared to the drag and drop UI creation in Visual
| Studio. Same when I've learned Java: UI creation was a nightmare.
| Sorry for going off rails...QBasic was just awesome!
| Narishma wrote:
| (2016)
| Igelau wrote:
| Really? Has something changed?
| orestis wrote:
| I ran across http://www.hedycode.com/ which is another take on
| kid-friendly programming languages. I ran the first few examples
| and it looked interesting - plus it runs in a browser so no
| archeology needed :)
| Frenchgeek wrote:
| I wonder why not qb64... ( https://www.qb64.org/portal/ )
| mysterydip wrote:
| Promitive as it was, QBasic had the right mix of commands people
| wanted (drawing, colors, music, file access), with the immediacy
| of running and seeing where your errors were (stepping through
| code) to make many a beginner coder motivated enough to stay with
| it to learn and develop beyond. I'll always owe it a debt for
| being my outlet through my middle school years.
| zabzonk wrote:
| I learned programming via BASIC (not QBASIC, on a Modular One
| https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Computer_Technology_Limited)and I
| agree it is a great way to learn how to write code (look at all
| those little kids who used to dodge into WHSmiths in the UK and
| write small, rude programs!)
|
| But the thing that always pissed me off was that it did not
| support proper functions (one-liners, yes) to the extent that I
| wrote a preprocessor in BASIC that did support them (rather
| badly).
|
| One thing I have always stressed to the many people I have taught
| is "Write functions, write lots of functions, you cannot write
| too many functions!"
| bori5 wrote:
| And you can run it on your iPhone/iPad using iDOS app.
| dehrmann wrote:
| QBasic was my first language, and I don't knock it for the
| purpose it served at the time, but for a new programmer, I'd
| point them at either JS (if they _really_ want to do web things)
| or Python. BASIC had its time, there are better languages now,
| and that 's ok.
| wvenable wrote:
| Better languages sure but more difficult ones. I don't do
| Python very often but there is a still a lot to unpack there.
| JavaScript is in some ways easier but some ways harder.
|
| QBASIC is on a whole different level.
|
| When my daughter was little, I taught her how to program using
| Visual Basic longer after it was obsolete. But getting a window
| on screen and interacting with it is 100x easier there than
| with Python.
| jyriand wrote:
| Ahh, QBasic, gateway drug into programming for many of us.
| pjfin123 wrote:
| Besides some Scratch early on I really got into programming in TI
| Basic on my graphing calculator and it was pretty great. Minimal
| learning curve to start writing useful programs, and sets you up
| well for high level languages. That being said I would probably
| still recommend Scratch for teaching kids to program, and Python
| for adults.
| Igelau wrote:
| What? Lock this man up for not teaching his son Haskell first!
|
| I jest. People take the whole "imperative bad!" thing a little
| too far. I have fond memories of QBasic and certainly cut my
| teeth on it as a child. I did more TI-Basic on my graphing
| calculator since I could do that on the school bus. It can't have
| been too hazardous for my development since I independently
| rediscovered the idea of the "game loop" in my meddling.
| throwaway180118 wrote:
| The post reminded me to look up a game called Black Annex, which
| was being developed by a solo developer in QB64.
|
| A previous post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17164068
|
| https://store.steampowered.com/app/248590/Black_Annex/
|
| https://www.pcworld.com/article/2033318/black-annex-is-the-b...
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqlveWIhCFI
|
| Lance, if you see this thread - I hope you find the passion to
| continue this project. What you built so far was an incredible
| feat.
| soferio wrote:
| A Commodore 64 emulator on a raspberry Pi connected to the family
| TV is what I used, with similar results. My boy was instantly
| programming and in awe of all the magic the words could weave.
| Boot straight into BASIC.
|
| This one: https://cmaiolino.wordpress.com/
| gitowiec wrote:
| I just bought ZX Spectrum Next issue 2 on Kickstarter. When I got
| it delivered my daughter turn 5. I think that it was good move, I
| also started with Speccy 33 years ago. Thanks to my dad which
| keep sitting next to me while I was trying to code I am a dev. I
| will not set the only way (my way), if she prefer taking care of
| animals or writing diaries I will not push her into STEM, but I
| will try to show her that having technical job pays off
| amasad wrote:
| I wanted to make a classic BASIC interpreter for Repl.it, and as
| I was slowly evolving it -- making line numbers optional, adding
| labels etc -- I discovered that I was reinventing QBasic!
|
| Docs: https://docs.repl.it/misc/basic
|
| Source: https://repl.it/@amasad/pg-basic
| blunte wrote:
| Not to be contrarian, but Python is even simpler than Basic. You
| don't have GOTO, but you don't need it. Just using a subset of
| Python language you can do anything you need, and with less
| syntactic noise.
| DanBC wrote:
| How do you draw a line on the screen in Python? Here's BASIC.
| I'm not saying this is good. But it is easy.
| SCREEN 13 LINE (X1, Y1) - (X2, Y2), COLOUR
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > How do you draw a line on the screen in Python?
|
| Using only stdlib: import turtle
| turtle.penup() turtle.pencolor(colour)
| turtle.setpos(x1,y1) turtle.pendown()
| turtle.goto(x2,y2)
| ksaj wrote:
| I am guessing that is straight-up LOGO on Python.
| klelatti wrote:
| It obviously depends on the Basic version but I think it's hard
| to argue that Python is simpler than Basic in general (e.g. OO,
| FP are quite complex topics for newbies) plus all the libraries
| - it's a lot for a beginner to take in.
|
| I do think that there is an interesting point around whether
| you could usefully define a subset of (say) Python as a better
| first language. I've not seen anyone do that but seems like
| might be worth trying.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| The big advantage for using BASIC to teach young children is its
| concreteness. In my experience, some kids have trouble
| understanding nested blocks (for example in Python, why the stuff
| in an if block is different than the surrounding code). With
| BASIC and GOTO everything is explicit and concrete and at the
| same level. They just have to trace though the program one line
| at a time to understand it.
| ojnabieoot wrote:
| I also find the idea that "if you teach kids bad procedural
| programming, they'll form bad habits and struggle with modern
| languages" to be specious.
|
| I grew up with BASIC (Q and TI), then learned a small amount of
| MATLAB as a physics student. When I took a class in Scheme
| later in college, I was blown away by how its syntactical
| constructs prevented me from making the kinds of errors that
| plagued my imperative/procedural programs - at the cost of some
| cognitive overhead.
|
| Cutting my teeth with GOTO didn't make me resistant to
| structured (or functional) programming, it gave me perspective
| on why it's often necessary.
| pfraze wrote:
| Strongly agree. The constructs are easy to move past, and
| worth the simplicity you get with the initial learning curve
| ISL wrote:
| I will never forget the day that I spent debugging an early
| QBasic program that included a line similar to 5
| = x
|
| for an assignment in the first draft. There were tears and deep
| frustration at the moment I discovered that assignment had a
| directionality. The author's story brings back so many memories
| of learning and growth.
|
| For those too young to know -- magazines used to come with page-
| long Basic programs for games that you could type in, debug
| (there were always typos), and play.
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| Honestly it's pretty strange that assignment has a
| directionality.
| ISL wrote:
| The primary difficulty that I had was the overloaded usage of
| the "=" character. I had a clear mathematical understanding
| that the "=" symbol was symmetric, that 5 = x and x = 5 were
| equivalent. That someone could abuse that notion so brazenly
| was the source of my frustration.
|
| Some languages use directional notation for assignment (see
| [1]): 5 -> x
|
| is clear.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assignment_(computer_scienc
| e)#...
| teddyh wrote:
| Pascal and related languages use the notation
| x := 5
|
| I have heard that this was to mimic (in ASCII) the look of
| an arrow: x = 5
| magicalhippo wrote:
| One of the reasons I still quite like Pascal.
| sjwright wrote:
| It has to though.
|
| X = Y; // what should change?
| fernmyth wrote:
| In a declarative language, nothing.
| pron wrote:
| But computation has an _intrinsic_ directionality. If you
| have two expressions a, and b, and you want to unify them
| in a declarative language as a = b, then having an
| unknown subterm in one or the other can make the
| computation have a completely different complexity,
| making one direction easy and the other intractable. The
| P vs. NP problem is a famous question exactly about this
| directionality.
|
| Here's a simple example (in a declarative language that
| allows non-terminating computation; in a total language
| similar examples can be given, except "impossible" means
| intractable rather than non-computable, which, for all
| intents and purposes is the same): X =
| terminates?(P(1))
|
| If X is known then finding a P is easy; if vice-versa,
| finding X is possibly impossible.
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| Oh, I meant in the special case of something that can only
| be an r-value on the left such, such as a constant or
| function result. But yeah, it could still confuse newbies,
| because the problem is not understand that it's procedural.
| edejong wrote:
| X_{t+1} = Y_t
|
| Doesn't have to.
| nsenifty wrote:
| The first time I saw X = X + 1 in a ZX Spectrum basic program
| listing, I thought it would cause the computer to catch fire.
|
| I was 9 though.
| benttoothpaste wrote:
| Zx Spectrum was actually less confusing because it required
| LET before variable assignment.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2020-11-28 23:00 UTC)