[HN Gopher] Sleep duration is associated with brain structure an...
___________________________________________________________________
Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cognitive
performance
Author : mcguire
Score : 240 points
Date : 2020-11-29 17:15 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (onlinelibrary.wiley.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (onlinelibrary.wiley.com)
| pedalpete wrote:
| Though the subjective measure of this study is better than
| nothing, in the coming years we'll be able to use sleep data for
| more concrete evidence.
|
| At https://soundmind.co, we're building a headband focused on
| improving Sleep Performance, by monitoring your sleep state and
| using sound to alter sleep state. There is amazing research
| around improving sleep quality, by improving sleep maintenance
| (aka reducing waking during the night), increase occurrence and
| amplitude of sleep spindles, and more.
|
| In initial trials, we've lowered average time awake from 1hr 41
| minutes to 32 minutes, using a sample of 4 nights without stim,
| and 4 nights with. I need to do a blog post about that soon.
| We're still gathering more data.
|
| If this is an area of interest, you can sign-up for the waitlist
| on our website, or happy to answer questions here.
| kovek wrote:
| Last night I worked out and my nose opened up and I slept so much
| better. Anyone experienced something similar?
| daxfohl wrote:
| Probably, but also at age 44 I bought one of those nose hair
| trimmers, and it may be the best investment I've ever made.
| starpilot wrote:
| I feel vindicated in insisting on 8-9 hours every night, and
| limiting any caffeine (few cups a month at most).
| justinko wrote:
| Do you feel basically fantastic every day?
| k__ wrote:
| A few years ago, I stopped setting an alarm clock on a regular
| basis.
|
| Now, I just sleep as long as I need, which is usually 8-9h a day.
|
| I struggled with sleep for years, but now I sleep good.
| slothtrop wrote:
| The risk with an inconsistent waking time is shifting forward
| the circadian rhythm, if you sleep in later and later. When
| that occurs you'll fall asleep later as well, or wake up more
| often. A wind-down period ahead of bedtime can also offer some
| flexibility, if you happen to have enough sleep pressure to
| fall asleep earlier some nights.
| k__ wrote:
| I wake between 11:00 and 13:00 for years now. And I go to
| sleep between 2:00 and 4:00.
| srpm wrote:
| When I stop using alarms and stop forcing myself to go to
| sleep early, my hours seem to converge to something very
| similar to yours. I experience the "shifting forward" until
| I get to 2am-11am, and the shifting stops.
|
| I've noticed the same pattern on roommates and family
| members as well.
| k__ wrote:
| It wasn't always like that.
|
| I fondly the time between school and university, when I
| was unemployed.
|
| I was awake until 7 and slept until 16. I didn't even
| party much at that time.
| MivLives wrote:
| I countered this by setting a go to sleep alarm. Alarm goes
| off, time to wind it up and head to bed. I do have a morning
| alarm (multiple of them) but I've been waking up before they
| go off.
| slothtrop wrote:
| Yeah I basically schedule time before bed. What people take
| for granted is that an increasingly fatigued state can also
| lead you to procrastinate on sleep, i.e. if you're tired
| and dicking around on electronics mindlessly, you'll just
| keep doing it and have trouble pulling yourself away.
| Whereas if I just read a book that's no trouble.
| diydsp wrote:
| Haha I think that might be happening with me... do you
| suppose melatonin for a few nights a month would be a good
| idea to keep it stable?
| slothtrop wrote:
| Doesn't seem necessary, but at any rate only a small dose
| is needed to be effective i.e. 0.3mg. Too much OTC
| melatonin can backfire and lead to grogginess.
|
| Melatonin levels should naturally spike near onset, but it
| can be suppressed by blue light emitting electronics and
| caffeine. A filter like flux on media devices in the
| evening can help - https://justgetflux.com/
| calcsam wrote:
| Slightly different experience. Stopped using an alarm clock
| when we had kids. Seem to always wake up between 6 and 7am and
| often tired during the day ;)
| watwut wrote:
| Kids wake up with light and sun. Then they wake you. Invest
| into really dark things on windows in kids room.
|
| Also, don't send them to sleep too soon.
| stingraycharles wrote:
| If I don't set an alarm I always wake up much earlier, and grab
| my phone in fear that it's too late. Setting an alarm at a very
| reasonable tim (ie >8h after going to bed) helps me sleep
| calmly, knowing that I will not oversleep.
|
| It's interesting how different minds work. :)
| eloff wrote:
| I have the opposite problem. I have to sleep with a watch.
| Otherwise if I wake up and can't check how much time I have
| left to sleep, I get anxious that the alarm is about to go
| off and I can't get back to sleep.
| disordinary wrote:
| I only worry like that if I've got a flight in the morning,
| in which case I set multiple alarms.
| SimeVidas wrote:
| I average 6 hours and 8 minutes. Not enough.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| I'd like to share my sleeping practice which I've developed after
| several years of focusing on it and trying to recreate the pre-
| industrial (and possibly pre-farming) sleep patterns my ancestors
| had for millions of years before the last few thousand.
|
| Whenever I feel tired, I lay down to rest.
|
| Whenever I am sleeping, I allow myself to sleep until I am "fully
| slept", meaning I can lay there for a while, still physically
| resting, and not fall asleep.
|
| Sometimes this means only a couple hours, and sometimes it's 16
| or more. Whatever it is, if I am tired and want to keep sleeping,
| that's what I do.
|
| A couple of times I think I was coming down with something, I
| slept for more than 24 hours with only pee breaks. And I woke up
| feeling fresh as a cucumber, as they say.
|
| Those flus and colds which I used to get once or twice a year and
| which would sometimes drag on for weeks? I can't remember the
| last time I've had that happen, but it's been several years now.
| (Of course, I have several other practices to thank for this, in
| addition to the sleep.)
|
| I also practice what I call "dog sleep" or "cat sleep", meaning I
| lay down and close my eyes and fully rest my body, without
| necessarily losing all alertness or consciousness.
|
| My rewards have been improved cognition, better health and
| overall feeling, and still being able to do occasional coding
| marathons like I used to when I was half my current age.
|
| We've been conditioned to think of sleep as laziness and sloth,
| but nothing could be further from the truth on the cellular
| level. When you rest, your cells go to work cleaning, rebuilding,
| and renewing your body. Your mind also does sorting and self-
| analysis, and returns the results in the form of remembered
| dreams.
| drclau wrote:
| How do you handle noise? Do you live in a house or apartment
| building?
| random3 wrote:
| How are you measuring "improved cognition, better health and
| overall feeling"?
| melq wrote:
| I don't think you need to measure having a better overall
| feeling. If someone says they feel poorly then they feel
| poorly. Suppose there was some object way to measure such a
| thing, what are you going to do with that metric? Imagine
| being depressed and going to the doctor only for them to say,
| "no you're not, look at this metric!".
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| It's just an overall sense of being able to think of things,
| think several consecutive thoughts through, clarity when
| programming, ability to stay attentive and on track, social
| ability, and so on.
|
| I've experienced many different layers of both cognitive
| health and cognitive impairment, and I also practice
| mindfulness, so I am able to assess this pretty well.
|
| I have something to compare to: I used to be able to program
| all day every day when I was younger. I've also had several
| instances of TBI. I've had times when I tried to follow a
| schedule which didn't work for me for both corporate jobs and
| startups. I've been depressed and at peace, in love and with
| a broken heart. All of these things can be helpful or
| debilitating, or even both.
|
| I compare my assessments in comparison with all of these
| different experiences.
|
| The difference between my current practice and getting 8
| hours a day on a schedule is... I don't even know how to
| describe it.
| filleokus wrote:
| In principle this sounds pretty ideal. Sleeping, or resting,
| when you need and not force an arbitrary societal schedule on
| yourself. But, I'm guessing that you don't go into an office
| nor have a lot of meetings? Do you live alone or does it work
| with a family around the house?
| Spooky23 wrote:
| It's easier than one might think. The key is being able to
| pull off the 20m snooze.
|
| In my misspent youth, I used to drive to a Starbucks or
| Dunkin' Donuts, pound a coffee and close my eyes for 15-20m.
| Another thing is to reserve a conference room on a remote
| floor during lunchtime.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| My circumstances vary. If I'm sharing space with someone, I
| ask that they don't wake me up unless it's urgent, and that
| they don't talk to or engage me after I wake up, until I
| signal that I'm ready.
|
| No, I don't go into the office anymore. I live a pauper's
| existence compared to the past, when I lived like royalty,
| "earning" enough to pay rent on my own nice apartment in
| Manhattan, buying new clothes and things regularly, as much
| as whatever food I wanted, and so on.
|
| My finances are almost non-existence, and my sense of
| happiness and self-fulfillment is through the roof.
| rajinikantham wrote:
| Do you have children? If yes, how on earth is this doable?
| hndamien wrote:
| Let them sleep when they are tired and wake when they want.
| mattbee wrote:
| This reply works for a lot of self-improvement advice I read
| on HN.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| No, of course this would be somewhat different with children.
|
| However, this is how I would also raise a child, letting them
| sleep as much and whenever they want.
|
| When I was a child myself, my parents were in disagreement.
| My dad's opinion that I should be "broken in" so that I am
| better able to integrate into society. My mom thought more
| along the lines of what I describe.
|
| Seeing that my dad had a societal job while my mom raised me,
| she largely won out.
|
| I think I have her defense and sheltering of me to thank for
| being blessed with rarely having problems in this department.
| dorkwood wrote:
| This is similar to my "drink when you're thirsty" method for
| remaining hydrated. There's a whole industry built on the
| premise that we're unable to regulate our own water intake
| without the help of apps and special water bottles. I've not
| found that to be the case myself.
| vestrigi wrote:
| I guess I use the same method. For a year or so, I forced
| myself to drink an additional liter of water per day and I
| didn't feel any difference from it, except that I had to go
| to the toilet all the time. The only problem that arises now
| is that I tend to forget that I'm a bit thirsty because of
| the ubiquitous distractions in our lives.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| I don't think that our ancestors were able to drink when they
| wanted to. You need to travel to some drinking spot which
| takes time and probably required group effort.
|
| Though I don't think that we should just blindly recreate our
| ancient habits.
| asdf333 wrote:
| you do not sound like you have kids. if you do, how do you
| possibly achieve this with kids.
| carrozo wrote:
| I've found a type of box breathing to be a really effective way
| to fall asleep in recent weeks; breathe in through nose until
| lungs full, count 7 seconds, breathe out through mouth until
| lungs empty (really squeeze all the air out), count for 7
| seconds. Repeat. Thoughts fade away from persistent focus on
| following the routine of it.
| TaupeRanger wrote:
| Don't get anxious. These kinds of studies are almost always
| overturned by another one within 12-24 months. Weak correlations
| are not worth worrying about.
| slothtrop wrote:
| Isn't there a pretty sizable body of research at this point
| suggesting that sleeplessness leads to cognitive deficits?
| jahewson wrote:
| It's not worth losing sleep over.
| momirlan wrote:
| True, other things like DNA and training have a much bigger
| effect.
| arcturus17 wrote:
| Training?
| mcguire wrote:
| Sleep Boot Camp. You didn't have to take it?
| arcturus17 wrote:
| Seems like I didn't get the memo. Could really use
| something like that though.
| pulkitsh1234 wrote:
| I have a very weird problem/issue, maybe someone can help.
|
| In my school days I used to maintain a dream diary, where I would
| note down every dream I had after waking up. I stopped doing that
| when I got into college, but dreams never stopped and I never
| stopped analysing and trying to remember the dreams.
|
| Fast forward to present time (10 years from school), whenever I
| want to wake up i.e. after 6-7 hours of sleep I can't stop myself
| from thinking about the dream. It's like I am in a half-awake and
| half-sleepy state and I can't control myself to get fully awake,
| I know for sure I am not lucid dreaming.
|
| I wake up to turn off the alarm, but my mind rushes back to
| thinking about the dream (because 99.9% of time it is very
| interesting and it seems like I need to dive into it further to
| understand/remember it). This cycle keeps on continuing, I drift
| to sleep while thinking about the dream, and then when I wake up
| there is a brand new dream in my head, and I get back to thinking
| about it. This cycle keeps on going for 2-3 hours, so my total
| sleep time from an outsider perspective is 10+ hours.
|
| No matter how much I think before going to sleep to not think
| about the dreams in the morning no matter how interesting they
| are, I am not able to control myself in thinking about the dream
| in the morning and then just falling back to sleep eventually.
| Jeff_Brown wrote:
| It sounds to me like you're conflicted about whether the dreams
| are worth analysis. If I were in that position I'd analyze my
| full history of dream analysis. What has paying lots of
| attention to my dreams gotten me? How has the experience
| changed over the years? Am I different now as a result? In what
| ways am I better, in what ways worse?
|
| The solution to many addiction problems (which you suggest this
| might be) can be to simply be more context-aware. In the heat
| of a game, of course you want to keep playing the game. But the
| more you think about your entire life's context, who you are
| vs. who you want to be, what you need to get done vs. what
| you're getting done -- the less focus the object of addiction
| is able to retain.
|
| (Fun related fact -- more than half of drug addictions in the
| US are simply "outgrown", with no intervention to blame.)
| yllorepap wrote:
| This is interesting. I do this too and find it quite addictive.
| It's a sort of groggy high, certainly an easy form of escape.
| It's a place between dreaming and thinking.
|
| I have many things I do just to get me out of bed to stop the
| cycle. I have a Philips sunlight alarm clock placed on the
| other side of the room, which combined with painfully chugging
| a pint of water is how I get up. I then have my breakfast
| arranged so I just have to press a button and my porridge will
| cook. Now if I don't get up for that there will be a burnt pan
| which is more incentive not to lay in dreams.
| csbartus wrote:
| > I know for sure I am not lucid dreaming.
|
| Have you made reality checks? In lucid dreaming the blur
| between dreams and reality fades fast. Reality checks become
| non-reliable very fast. One has to make sure to invent
| constantly reality checks when the old ones stop being
| reliable.
| harikb wrote:
| Did I walk into an editing session of inception 2?
| ibn-python wrote:
| Wow you explained me to a tee. I never kept a full blown
| journal but it was something often discussed in my household.
| The later dream and wakefulness cycle you describe is something
| I've been trying to "fix" since it often leads to an extra
| several hour in bed.
| getpost wrote:
| Given the time span, I assume the answer is, "no," but are you
| taking any dietary supplements? DMAE? Galantamine? If yes, stop
| taking them (after consulting with an appropriate heathcare
| provider).
|
| EDIT: My own experience with DMAE is that it made some dream
| memories hard to distinguish from reality. Did that happen only
| in a dream? I wasn't so sure sometimes.
| jcynix wrote:
| First, as someone already mentioned, you might need more sleep.
| What's your sleep duration if you sleep until you wake up by
| yourself? I'd test that on a quiet long weekend, not during a
| busy day.
|
| Second, while I now use a lamp which ramps up the light before
| it starts to chime, I used music (instrumental and not to
| hectic) to wake me up. Music might get you something else to
| concentrate on while finally waking up.
|
| BTW, both ramping up lights and playing music at "alarm time"
| looks like a nice side project for a Raspi. Does somebody know
| about such a solution?
| pengaru wrote:
| Here's a cooky idea:
|
| When you wake up, force yourself out of bed, and immediately go
| wash your face, then do some pushups or go for a run around the
| block.
|
| You're in charge of yourself, if you _want_ to wake up, get out
| of bed and do it. How old are you?
| tacistbce wrote:
| This is just my opinion, and I know it's an unpopular one.
|
| I believe any kind of conscious dream processing is unhealthy.
| Our dreams is already the results of some kind of processing,
| so feeding them back as more experiences that need to be
| analyzed is confusing and tiring for your brain.
|
| You said that you've been doing it since your school days, so
| perhaps you don't remember, but dreams are made from a
| different material then regular memories: they are usually very
| "slippery" and hard to hold on to. I think it's important in
| this case to go with our default behavior and to forget them as
| fast as possible. And yes, it means that all lucid dreaming
| practices are damaging your brain functionality IMO.
|
| To break the loop you're in, I think you need to re-learn how
| to not mess with dreams. Give yourself the time you need, and
| if you're tired the best thing to do is to go back to sleep.
| But avoid doing so while thinking about any dream, or anything
| that is related to a dream, or even the abstract concept of
| dreams. When you catch yourself doing do, dismiss the thought
| with "oh, that isn't important" and then switch the topic to
| anything else, anything at all. You can follow the line where
| the wall meets the ceiling, for all your brain cares. The
| dismiss part is important, don't skip it. It prevents your
| brain from re-saving the thought. This trick can also be
| applied to that embarrassing moment your brain keeps popping at
| random times. Just "not important" wave, and a quick change of
| subject. Works like a charm.
|
| Good night, sleep well and wake up :)
| TooSmugToFail wrote:
| Very interesting.
|
| I often wake up at night or early in the morning to go to
| bathroom, or take water. I found that the best way to go back
| to sleep after waking up is to think about the dream I just
| had. It seems like this 'forced' dream continuity is somehow
| sleep inducing.
|
| What may be happening to you is the same thing: your firs
| instinct is trying to remember your dream, as you trained
| yourself through years of dream journaling. It's a learned
| behaviour. But what happens is, this induces sleep, and you're
| caught in the loop.
|
| Maybe the trick is to go back to writing down your dreams when
| you wake up. This activity may keep you from falling back
| asleep.
|
| Hope this helps.
| pulkitsh1234 wrote:
| That's a really interesting take.
|
| I stopped journalling because I noticed I was interpolating
| the missing bits of my memory while writing down the dream.
| It became more like writing an imaginary story inspired from
| my dream, then recording my actual dream.
|
| But that said, I definitely think this is good way to force
| myself out of the loop.
| blankaccount wrote:
| I think thats the point of dream journaling - the dream
| itself doesn't matter, what matters is how your
| subconscious mind fills in the blanks to create meaning
| relevant to your waking life.
|
| Very interesting ideas in this thread: 1. Remembering the
| dream you were just having re-induces sleep 2. Writing a
| dream journal first thing every morning as a means of
| warming up higher levels of cognition (to help break
| through the morning haze) 3. Given #1 and #2: if you stop
| journaling, you might end up with a habit that puts you
| back to sleep in the mornings.
| um_ya wrote:
| Try splashing cold water in your face. Slap your self a few
| times. Turn on something that makes noise, like music. I
| would avoid recording your dreams, because it seems to be
| what got you stuck in the loop in the first place.
| bigwavedave wrote:
| The only thing that gets me out of bed is the day/night
| cycle bulbs my snake needs. I know I can automate turning
| off the night light and turning on the day bulb, but if I
| don't automate then I know she's depending on me when my
| alarm goes off so I have to physically get up, walk to
| the other room, and flip a couple switches. On my way
| back, it's very easy for me to sit down at the counter
| and eat the sandwich I made the night before for
| breakfast.
| jooize wrote:
| Have you tried switching places with the snake? You may
| want to set up automation first as you could find the
| snake not pushing the light button reliably every
| morning.
|
| Gradually dimming the bedroom light with a warm color
| temperature helps me get tired in the evening, and fading
| it in to a cold color temperature in the morning helps me
| wake up.
| bigwavedave wrote:
| While I understand the point you want to make, the
| temperature in her tank is the same whether I flip the
| switches or not- so worst case scenario if I'm dead and
| don't flip the switches, she has to make do with ambient
| light from my window instead of light from a bulb
| directly overhead. This is in fact very safe for the
| snake, but still enough of a motivation for me.
| vram22 wrote:
| What kind of snake do you keep?
| bigwavedave wrote:
| She's a ball python! Just barely a year old and the
| sweetest noodle. She just barely became big enough for a
| 40 gallon tank.
| newhotelowner wrote:
| > I found that the best way to go back to sleep after waking
| up is to think about the dream I just had. It seems like this
| 'forced' dream continuity is somehow sleep inducing.
|
| That is what I do too. For me, it is the best way to fall
| sleep right away.
| amelius wrote:
| By the way, I've noticed that changing sides makes me start a
| new dream. Useful when a dream isn't interesting or pleasant.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| _You need more sleep._
|
| That's it. That's the story. There's nothing wrong with you.
| Trying to set additional alarms, or worrying about how you used
| to record your dreams... Not relevant. Your body isn't done
| resting. Stop interrupting it before its done, and you'll find
| that 8ish hours of uninterrupted sleep is more restful than the
| quasi-sleep you're getting now.
| NineStarPoint wrote:
| Sounded to me like they already get 8 hours generally and it
| pushes up to 10-11.
|
| That said, it's important to realize that not everyone needs
| 8 hours of sleep. Some people are blessed to only need 6,
| some people are cursed to need 10 or 11 hours. Some people
| have extreme generic quirks that can go from only needing 4
| to needing more than 12 (of course you should talk to a
| doctor if that's you). 8 is definitely by far the most
| common, but it's not a hard rule.
| nbardy wrote:
| I have very similar issues. The key for me is looking at the
| behavior as a routine and pattern and replace it with a better
| routine and pattern. You need something to avoid the morning
| thought trap. The best way I've found to counter it is to have
| an immediate morning routine. For example: I set my running's
| shoes and clothes out and the first the I do when my alarm goes
| off is put them on and go for a run. I've done the same thing
| with meditation as the first part of my day. The key is to pick
| an activity with minimal activity energy and to setup some
| visual cues of that activity near your bed. Don't allow
| yourself to get pulled into you mind and brain. Eventually your
| new habit can replace the old one It's not easy to transition
| but achievable with persistence and time. It starts out very
| hard to turn off that pattern. It eventually becomes natural to
| start your day a different way.
|
| I'll be honest, right now my routine is in rough shape after a
| bout of depression, but I'm at about 3-4 days a week and slowly
| building it up. This is a problem that comes and goes for me
| and focusing on a steady routine always helps.
|
| I also recommend some meditation practice. On my worse days my
| mind is a mess of thoughts and dreams in the morning and I
| can't make sense of the world much less the running shoes next
| to my bed. The way I get myself out of that is to bringing back
| my attention to my breath and body as mindfulness. Eventually I
| have enough awareness I can start to curl my body and prop
| myself up for a few minutes while I continue to collect myself.
| vlunkr wrote:
| Put your alarm clock on the other side of the room.
| Phlogistique wrote:
| I did this back in high school. Turns out at some point I was
| able to wake up, walk to the computer (which I used as an
| alarm clock), stop the alarm, get back to sleep, and forget
| everything.
| amelius wrote:
| Or get one of these:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Clocky-Rolling-Sleeper-Bed-Room-
| Run-a...
| alfonsodev wrote:
| I'm not an expert on this matter, but it seems that you primed
| yourself to think that to a subconscious level, maybe try to
| prime yourself to think about gratitude first thing in the
| morning, but you'll have to belive deep down that is true,
| useful and important otherwise those dreams will be more
| interesting to your mind.
|
| Maybe you could start being grateful about the dreams and let
| them go, and focus on your body, be grateful you have two legs,
| you can breath... (find your own things).
|
| Gratitude is not just contemplative bullshit, it can be about
| action, like OK I'm acknowledge all these good things I have,
| and I need to fight thermodynamics, taking action or they might
| go away, like are you grateful you have two legs, take the
| action of walking and so on, it can be about honoring those
| things we take for granted but we can lose.
|
| I hope is not too cheesse or sounded crazy.
| DerDangDerDang wrote:
| That was great, thank you.
|
| I know consciously expressing gratitude can be a powerful way
| to ground yourself and stay positive, but your insight about
| spurring action to fight thermodynamics is awesome.
| scrollaway wrote:
| > _It 's like I am in a half-awake and half-sleepy state and I
| can't control myself to get fully awake, I know for sure I am
| not lucid dreaming._
|
| Are you having a form of sleep paralysis maybe? This "half
| awake, half asleep" state is one I know quite well.
|
| Here's a variety of sleep paralysis symptoms I've experienced
| over the years:
|
| - You're in the "real world", but you feel like you're not
| really awake
|
| - Limited control over your movements; or extreme difficulty
| moving your limbs; or you "feel" like you're moving, but you're
| not quite moving (or not at all; kind of like you're swimming
| in tar)
|
| - Extreme stress / nervousness, like something's wrong and you
| can't figure out what; panic even sometimes
|
| - Manifestation of some phobia (spiders, insects, monsters) in
| your room / around you
|
| - The last few moments, or last situation of your dream keeps
| repeating, like it's on a loop (you "wake up", think you're
| awake, and you're still dreaming)
| baxtr wrote:
| I experienced something similar, maybe 5x in my life: I wake
| up mentally but I am asleep physically. So somehow I am
| trapped in my body awake. I can't move any limb nor open my
| eyes. I start to panic and after some time I can move a bit,
| and then a bit more and so on. It's quite stressful and
| freaky.
| scrollaway wrote:
| You learn to recognize it, especially if it happens more
| than once every few years. Then you can just take a breath
| and relax, knowing "it will end soon". Sometimes you can
| even break out of it.
| astral303 wrote:
| You have to get up. Set your body on unreturnable path to
| awake.
| jey wrote:
| What if you were to instead plan on sleeping for 8 to 9 hours?
| Sleeping only 6 to 7 hours is suboptimal for most people.
| Spending 9 hours in bed and getting 8 hours total sleep would
| probably be a good target (for most people). I imagine the 3-4
| hours of disrupted sleep would become more efficient and
| shorter if you didn't wake up in the middle from alarms and
| etc.
|
| Also, as usual, don't listen to random folks on the internet.
| Kenji wrote:
| Apparently, smoking pot makes you dream less. I have no
| experience with that kind of stuff, and I don't recommend you
| to take drugs, but as a last resort - why not try that?
| z3t4 wrote:
| When I'm tired my brain tricks me into going back to sleep, so
| I guess you are just tired. If you are sleeping more then 8
| hours and still feel tired you might have bad sleep quality.
| pulkitsh1234 wrote:
| I feel it's the dreaming which makes me tired, I feel
| exhausted whenever I am able to remember my dreams.
|
| I usually feel pretty good if I don't remember any dream
| after waking up(Assuming they never happened).
|
| Now that I think more of it, I agree it might be my lack of
| sleep quality which makes me tired and maybe places/offsets
| the REM sleep at odd times so I am able to remember the
| dreams. My circadian rhythm is definitely disturbed as go to
| sleep around 3:30 to 4:00 AM.
| qu4z-2 wrote:
| My experience is I'm more likely to remember my dreams if I
| got woken up unnaturally, so maybe it's the other way
| around? You only remember your dreams when you wake up
| tired?
| aquaticsunset wrote:
| Yep, happens to me too. Almost always if I need a bit more
| sleep but the sun is already up. I don't have these in-between
| dreaming/awake dreams if it's the middle of the night and still
| dark.
| budoso wrote:
| I have this strange experience where I only remember my dreams
| if I am woken up from sleep unnaturally. When it happens it
| feels as if my mind knows that in the future I'll be woken up
| by something. Obviously this isn't how the brain chemistry
| works, but I can't help but feel this way when it happens.
| pulkitsh1234 wrote:
| Yeah I totally get what you are saying. I have also noticed
| that my dreams adapt to outside sounds/lighting changes in
| realtime. What's more spooky is that the entire dream
| preserves it cohesion and nothing feels out of place, even
| when the events outside (in the real world) are completely
| random. Like sound of the door closing or someone walking by
| the bed, all of that integrates seamlessly into the dream.
| vram22 wrote:
| > I have also noticed that my dreams adapt to outside
| sounds/lighting changes in realtime.
|
| Yes, that happens. I have both read about and experienced
| it. For example if you are thirsty or hungry (in real
| life), that can be reflected in your dream, in a related
| but possibly also weird way (sometimes). Like if you have
| real hunger, you may dream that you are eating something. I
| either read or think that the brain/mind does this as a
| compensating/adjusting mechanism, so that sleep can
| continue. Same for needing to take a leak, although of
| course that cannot go on for long. And for the weird part,
| you may dream that you are eating something impossible to
| eat, like rocks, to take a wild example. After all, not all
| events in dreams are logical or follow physical laws of
| real life.
|
| >What's more spooky is that the entire dream preserves it
| cohesion and nothing feels out of place, even when the
| events outside (in the real world) are completely random.
| Like sound of the door closing or someone walking by the
| bed, all of that integrates seamlessly into the dream.
|
| Yes, that too happens, and is because any crazy/impossible
| event can happen in a dream, and in the dream it seems
| normal - i.e. what I said about physical laws above, and
| also because our physical senses still operate somewhat in
| dreams, and those sensations can show up as events in the
| dream.
| layoutIfNeeded wrote:
| >the entire dream preserves it cohesion and nothing feels
| out of place
|
| Well, _from within the dream_ at least.
|
| I remember once dreaming that my grandpa was tickling me
| with static electricity from his arm hairs (for some reason
| he had very hairy arms in this dream), and inside the dream
| that didn't seem weird at all. Then I woke up and realized
| that a fly was walking on my skin and that was the cause of
| the tickling sensation.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| >Fast forward to present time (10 years from school), whenever
| I want to wake up i.e. after 6-7 hours of sleep I can't stop
| myself from thinking about the dream. It's like I am in a half-
| awake and half-sleepy state and I can't control myself to get
| fully awake, I know for sure I am not lucid dreaming.
|
| You're lucky. It takes me much practice and cultivation to be
| able to have that kind of clarity in dream retention.
|
| I ask that people don't talk to me after I wake up, and I keep
| a journal close, and I work at it, and I'm still able to attain
| anything like what you're describing only sometimes.
|
| In programming terms, in your sleep, your brain runs a full
| reference check against all nodes, and the ones that fired the
| brightest are what you're seeing when you wake up.
|
| Don't let this valuable information go to waste.
| okareaman wrote:
| I'm bipolar so I've gone through periods where I sleep 18 hours a
| day and periods where I sleep 2 hours a night if at all. Caffeine
| intake doesn't seem to matter. Medication and good mental hygiene
| helps a lot with this issue.
| HappyDreamer wrote:
| How does only 2 hours sleep a night affect you? For example at
| work, or studies / learning new things? Or when together with
| others?
|
| (Personally I get upset at the computer more easily, if I'm
| tired. Hmm maybe I should stop working now)
| anonymouse008 wrote:
| Is ineffectiveness of caffeine a symptom / indicator of a
| mental difference? I, too, am not phased in the slightest by
| caffeine and have had sleep schedules vary, though not as large
| of a range... just curious
| okareaman wrote:
| I'm not sure. I have learned in my treatments that stimulants
| the opposite effect on people with ADHD and calms them down.
| I don't suffer from that so I couldn't really say.
| LeonB wrote:
| You could have a genetic insensitivity to caffeine, or your
| body might be very used to it, but as another commenter
| mentioned an atypical response to stimulants is common with
| ADHD.
| 01100011 wrote:
| Lately my body seems to be waking me up after around 4.5 hours
| of sleep. I'm alert and well rested, but if I wake up I'll be
| tired in an hour or two. If I push myself to sleep more, I wake
| up around 7-8 hours feeling more tired, and I can easily sleep
| to 10 hours at that point. It's really frustrating, because
| there doesn't seem to be a perfect amount of sleep for me
| anymore.
|
| I'm 45, Bipolar type II. Ever since trying intermittent fasting
| I'm extremely tired after meals, and my caffeine tolerance is
| _way_ up. I always drank half a cup at most, now I need 2.5 a
| day just to function. I have sleep apnea, but it 's well
| controlled with a CPAP(AHI<5). I feel like I need a couple
| month sabbatical to reset myself but I don't see that happening
| anytime soon.
| okareaman wrote:
| I forgot to mention. I don't eat anything with added sugar. I
| eat very little food that contains natural sugar. A low sugar
| diet really improved my mood and sleep.
| okareaman wrote:
| I feel for you. I've been through all these problems
| including sleep apnea, which seems to have mostly gone away,
| but I have a cpap just in case. I take a low dose of
| Quetiapine (25mg) which means I can sleep 5 to 6 hours and
| wake up fairly refreshed (after a cup of coffee) and can
| write code without getting obsessed about it.
| radu_floricica wrote:
| Try taking melatonin when you wake up too early (0.3 mg, from
| NootropicsDepot). Taken in the morning it pushes your wakeup
| time later. Won't make you fall asleep, but in a few days it
| shoulx be noticeable.
|
| I'm managing the same insomnia with very low dose of
| mirtazepine (1mg per evening) and the occasional ambien when
| I wake up.
| amasad wrote:
| How does taking melatonin in the morning help?
| thotsBgone wrote:
| Small doses of melatonin shift your sleep cycle. In the
| morning if you want to delay your cycle, and in the
| evening if you want to advance it.
|
| People use larger doses of melatonin as a hypnotic to
| make them fall asleep right away, but that's not the only
| use.
| amasad wrote:
| Try cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. The overly
| simplified summary: restrict your sleep -- just wake up when
| you wake up -- and don't take naps and go to the bad when
| you're really really tired. Keep repeating and you'll fall
| into a natural rhythm of sleep.
| Kosirich wrote:
| I fall asleep quite easy but I notice a correlation between
| dreaming or at least ability to remember the dream with how well
| rested I feel. Also, it seems that I have periods when I dream a
| lot, essentially every single day and periods like now when I
| don't. I suspect connection with screen time as the period I had
| dreams was when I was reading a physical book before sleep while
| for the last 2 months I've been reading from Kindle.
| hizxy wrote:
| This stresses me out because I've struggled with sleep for quite
| some time. Feels awful.
| mikkom wrote:
| Try Meditation. It really helps sleep quality.
|
| Another thing is not drinking caffeine AT ALL. My sleep quality
| got much better after I stopped drinking coffee. Strangely I
| can drink as much tea as I want but coffee makes me sleep
| badly.
| Dumblydorr wrote:
| So you're drinking caffeinated or non caffeinated tea?
| mjayhn wrote:
| Green tea (maybe others) has l-theanine which takes away the
| jittery feeling/anxiety of caffeine. Might be why. I really
| like caffeine + ltheanine pills.
| slothtrop wrote:
| Check this out, might be helpful - https://insomniasos.net/
| davidn20 wrote:
| Try making it a habit(Cue, Routine, Reward). After 3 decades on
| earth, I finally feel like I have a decent sleeping habit. Two
| things that worked for me, having a consistent schedule and
| creating a cue/trigger associated with sleep.
|
| I started wearing ear plugs and facemask to sleep. I started
| wearing it because my partner usually sleeps much later than
| me. First couple night took some adjusting, but after a week or
| two. I realized something. I started falling asleep almost
| immediately after putting on the ear plugs and facemask. That's
| when I made the realization I unintentionally created a habit
| with the ear plugs and facemask as the cue.
| disordinary wrote:
| I'm the same, I fall asleep much faster with headphones and a
| podcast or audiobook playing.
| Snackchez wrote:
| Sleep performance anxiety is a real thing. I've had to deal
| with similar issues. I try not to put too much weight when
| reading these studies (because they are anxiety inducing) and
| stick to a healthy bedtime wind-down routine as best as I can.
| hizxy wrote:
| Yes! I've had issues on and off for the last ten years. If I
| don't sleep well then it's quite easy to worry about the next
| night of sleep.
| bamboozled wrote:
| This is another cruel modern irony, we know more about the
| importance of sleep then ever before, yet we've built such a
| horrible world for sleep.
|
| Light pollution, noise pollution, blue light emitting devices,
| being "connected" 24x7, synthetic bedding materials, global man
| made crisis to worry about.
|
| Now study after study on how getting more sleep is important.
| 00deadbeef wrote:
| What's wrong with synthetic bedding materials?
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| Just listen to your body. It knows what you need better than you
| do. Which is why you don't have to think about beating your heart
| or processing food in your stomach. Any amount of cognitive
| increases are most likely related to the fact that your body can
| relay the excess to other areas such as the brain.
| zmmmmm wrote:
| > The Pittsburgh sleep quality index (PSQI) is a self-report
| questionnaire that assesses sleep quality and duration during the
| previous month
|
| I wonder why in this day and age where sleep monitoring tech is
| so widely available and routine, they still rely entirely on
| self-reporting?
| thotsBgone wrote:
| Funding?
| kombinar wrote:
| Interesting. I found after some trail and error that I'm more
| rested and perform better on less than recommended 8h of sleep.
| My sweet spot is somewhere around 7h. Fitbit "magic" sleep score
| also seems to confirm that (better sleep score on less sleep). I
| also found that stress is the biggest factor in getting good
| night sleep. When stressed I can sleep 8h and still feel bleh.
|
| I wonder if 8h of sleep is the cause of the better performance or
| they both are a result of less stressful life, better health or
| something else.
| daxfohl wrote:
| I've been sleeping approximately 9:30 to 4 and feel way better.
| Groggy upon waking up, but okay by 4:30, getting stuff done.
| Feels like there's a lot more time in the day. Probably because
| late nights were mostly wasted time eating junk food anyway.
| Allow myself some catch up sleep on the weekends, and it seems
| to work out.
|
| It was hard at first but now that I am used to it, I'm hooked.
| slothtrop wrote:
| I've settled for somewhere around 7.5h as I find this is less
| likely to lead to sleep onset or maintenance issues. Trouble
| falling asleep can shrink the total time even more, so I like
| to avoid that risk.
| MivLives wrote:
| I've found that if I'm fully caught up on sleep, 7 hours is
| what I naturally sleep. However if I'm behind (slept less then
| 7 hours for multiple days) then I will sleep random amounts
| until I get back into a routine.
| the-smug-one wrote:
| The amount of sleep required depends on the person and their
| living situation.
|
| I normally feel best on 7-8 hours of sleep. When training hard
| I require 9 hours.
|
| There are genetic outliers who require less sleep (google it).
|
| Anecdotally: I have a friend who performs like anyone else, but
| only requires around 5-6 hours of sleep. I've known him for
| over a decade now, he seems to be doing fine.
| wincy wrote:
| I just watched Iron Lady last night and Margaret Thatcher
| slept 4 hours a night almost every night for her entire life,
| and lived well into her 80s.
| trianglem wrote:
| Is this study saying that more than 8 hours of sleep correlates
| with negative effects on cognition?
| georgewsinger wrote:
| Oversleep can also be bad along some dimensions:
|
| > For cognition only, associations shift to a negative
| association of sleep duration and cognition for participants
| sleeping more than 8 hr a day.
|
| Though looking at the charts from the study I can say that Nassim
| Taleb would not be pleased with how weak the correlations seem to
| be:
|
| https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/545fd00f-8924-4047...
| vanderZwan wrote:
| Given that one of (emphasis _one of_ ) the reasons for long
| sleep duration is having poor quality of sleep, that doesn't
| surprise me. And if that is the only cause of negative
| correlation while other causes are harmless, that could also
| explain why this correlation is weak, no?
| blackbear_ wrote:
| From table 1, the largest significant correlation coefficient
| is 0.135. This study can be safely ignored.
| aouyang2 wrote:
| agreed. this seems far too low and smells more of p-hacking.
| icelancer wrote:
| I get extreme headaches if I sleep > 9.5 hours. They're
| brutally bad. Sweet spot for me is > 6 but < 8.5 hours per
| night w/ earplugs and a sleep mask on. Quality > Quantity, at
| least for me.
|
| I average 7 hours of sleep per night and do quite well on it.
| Used to do 5-6 hours/night and it eventually caught up to me in
| my 30s, but improving quality via ear plugs + mask + mattress
| went a lot further than an extra hour of sleep.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| Sleeps helps consolidate anything you learned during the day,
| since it helps forming long-term memories.
| jtsiskin wrote:
| Another interesting theory: dreams are to prevent overfitting
| and improve generalizability
| https://arxiv.org/pdf/2007.09560.pdf
| fbxio wrote:
| ,,Taken together, our results suggest that cognition and white
| matter integrity are not only affected by experimental sleep
| deprivation but are also associated with natural differences in
| habitual sleep duration.
|
| The findings of the present study are in line with other studies,
| which showed that cognitive performance and white matter are
| associated with sleep duration.,,
|
| On the other hand, I often hear stories of top-performing
| founders who claim to get by on just four hours of sleep or less
| over longer periods of time. Yet, getting too little sleep on an
| ongoing basis can have a negative impact on health. A study
| conducted by researchers at the University of Pennsylvania's
| Wharton School and Stanford University, found that employees who
| slept for six hours or less per night were more likely to be
| sick, take more time off work and have higher rates of
| absenteeism than those who got seven to eight hours of shut-eye
| each night. When I sleep less than 8 hours, I have this sensation
| of less energy throughout the day, regardless of how much coffee
| I'm taking in.
|
| One way to reduce the amount of time you are spending in bed not
| working is to develop a system for falling asleep faster. This is
| a skill that can be learned. The first step is to develop a
| routine for going to bed. This should include the same steps
| every night, such as brushing your teeth, washing your face, and
| reading a book. The routine should take about 20 minutes or less.
|
| Next, you need to develop a pre-sleep ritual that will help you
| relax and fall asleep faster. This could include taking a warm
| bath or shower before bedtime, listening to soothing music, to
| relaxing nature sounds, or reading something relaxing like poetry
| or fiction, but not nonfiction because that's harder to process
| by your brain. It's important not to do anything too stimulating
| before bedtime because this will make it harder for you to fall
| asleep. For example, and I'm not suggesting that anyone here is
| doing that very often, avoid watching movies with lots of action
| and violence in them because they can stimulate your mind and
| body too much at night when you are trying to sleep.
|
| There are many techniques to fall asleep faster, thereby reducing
| the time you lie awake in bed.
|
| - Use the bed only for sleep, being sick or making love. Don't
| read, watch TV, or eat in bed.
|
| - Avoid naps during the day. If you must nap, keep it short (no
| more than 20 minutes) and don't nap too close to bedtime.
|
| - Exercise regularly but not within 3 hours of your regular
| bedtime. Exercise can make you feel tired but also revs up your
| metabolism, which may interfere with falling asleep quickly.
|
| - Avoid blue light around bedtime. It's a potent stimulator of
| the brain's retinal ganglion cells, relaying visual information
| to the brain, which is like queuing up mountains of data for the
| GPU. It also suppresses melatonin production at night, which
| makes us feel more awake.
|
| - Be mindful about the sonic ambience in your bedroom. Is there
| distracting patterned noise like someone snoring, outside traffic
| or people talking? Mask it by playing unpredictable audio that
| covers up much of the audible spectrum, at the lowest volume
| possible just so it masks those noises enough.
|
| (new here, I hope this was a helpful contribution)
| ternaryoperator wrote:
| This is a good recap of basic sleep hygiene.
| mcguire wrote:
| " _Our findings demonstrate that reported sleep duration, but not
| subjective sleep quality is associated with both cognitive
| performance, especially in language subdomains, and white matter
| integrity of the SLF irrespective of age, sex, or BMI._ "
| kypro wrote:
| Around the age of 17 I used to regularly go to bed late so I
| could socialise, but I often had to be up at 8-9am for college /
| university / work. This meant I developed a fairly unhealthy
| sleep pattern and would often only get 6 hours of sleep a night.
|
| 10 years on and although I don't stay up to socialise anymore, I
| still really struggling to get enough sleep. No matter how tired
| I am throughout the day my mind seems to naturally wake up around
| 10pm and I rarely want to go to bed before 3am despite having to
| be up at 9am for work. On average I probably get 5-6 hours a
| night on a week day and 7-8 a night on weekends.
|
| Also every now and then (2 or 3 times a year) my body simply
| refuses to sleep and I will be completely unable to sleep for 2-3
| days. Again, although I know I need sleep I am not "tired". I'll
| put my head down on the pillow and nothing, my mind is racing and
| my body is fidgety and hyperactive.
|
| I don't know if I've conditioned myself to develop an unhealthy
| sleep pattern as a teenager, but I really struggle with sleep
| these days. I have tried to condition myself with having a
| schedule and dimming lights past 9pm, but so far I haven't had
| much luck shutting my head off at an appropriate time. However
| when I do eventually sleep I will typically want to stay in bed
| for 12+ hours it's just that's rarely possible because of work,
| etc.
|
| Does anyone have any tips for me? I seem to naturally want to
| sleep around 5-7pm so these days if I'm feeling particularly
| sleep deprived I'll try to get a couple of hours after work, but
| again this isn't always possible and sometimes my body will
| refuse to sleep even if I lie there for two hours.
| slpthrwwy wrote:
| I was in a similar state, I just started taking unisom (the
| kind with doxylamine succinate) on the days I have trouble
| going to sleep at a good time. It works for me.
|
| Sleeping pills aren't great but not sleeping isn't either. And
| not sleeping well can create a bad cycle where you stay up late
| to finish stuff that you didn't do during the day due to
| exhaustion.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| It's crazy to me how nearly nobody knows how to sleep. The only
| other adult that I know who has a consistent and healthy sleep
| routine is my partner.
| Aeolun wrote:
| I may not know how to sleep, but at least I'm aware that what
| I'm doing now isn't it?
| Michael_Sieb wrote:
| Bought an apple watch and it helps me track my sleep better and
| make sure I get enough of it.
| justinko wrote:
| Up to 30% of people may have sleep apnea. I recommend everyone to
| get at least an at-home sleep test. In-lab is much more difficult
| to get insurance to cover, but you could pay $1,500+ out-of-
| pocket.
|
| It is a horrendous condition that will ruin your life.
| 01100011 wrote:
| If you don't have insurance, you can get a cheap data-logging
| SpO2 meter off Amazon for like $150. You can even set it to
| sound an alarm if your SpO2 drops too low.
|
| Apnea is serious though. It hit me when I was relatively fit at
| 43 and took a chunk of my youth with it. Ever since, I have
| more of an "old man" brain(like getting overwhelmed by
| stimulus, especially when driving). I've been on CPAP for over
| 2 years and my apnea is well controlled, but some things just
| don't seem to come back.
| [deleted]
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