[HN Gopher] Europe's night trains are on track for a resurgence
___________________________________________________________________
Europe's night trains are on track for a resurgence
Author : Tomte
Score : 143 points
Date : 2020-12-14 17:39 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (edition.cnn.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (edition.cnn.com)
| dirtnugget wrote:
| High-speed, on-ground (or underground) transportation will be the
| future for the average Joe. While low-orbit flights may be a
| viable solution to transport for the upper class I bet that a
| sustainable railroad network will keep the folks moving in the
| mid term. It is not so hard to get carbon free and yet so
| effective.
| shimonabi wrote:
| I once boarded a sleeper train from Slovenia to the border of
| Switzerland for a job interview.
|
| I developed a bad case of motion sickness so I had to go to the
| bathroom several times in the night. :)
| selimthegrim wrote:
| When was this? In 2008 I couldn't find any from Slovenia to
| Italy barring Trieste
| standardUser wrote:
| The one overnight train I took in Germany was one of the most
| unpleasant nights of my life. The bed was so small and
| uncomfortable, and the temperature so erratic, I spent much the
| night in a bathroom reading a book.
|
| I'd only ever try it again in a premium cabin, assuming the cost
| isn't exorbitant.
| netsharc wrote:
| German Rail cancelled their night train service a few years
| ago, and then Austrian Rail took over and offered a proper
| service. As the article covers, the Germans were neglecting
| this service, which in turn probably lead to their poorer
| service and poorer uptake, and they presumably thought "well,
| it seems nobody likes taking night trains any more, so let's
| cancel them".
| elric wrote:
| > "well, it seems nobody likes taking night trains any more,
| so let's cancel them"
|
| It's a bit more insidious than that. I suspect they were
| deliberately cancelled so they wouldn't compete with high
| speed rail. HS rail is much more expensive, and can't compete
| with night trains. So night trains had to go in order to make
| room for for HS rail.
|
| Of course, now that all forms travel are much more accessible
| and affordable, night trains and HS rail might coexist -- if
| we get rid of cheap air travel.
| morsch wrote:
| They also thought it was pointless to even try to compete
| with air travel.
|
| Hartmut Mehdorn, the CEO of DB AG (German rail) from
| 2009-2019 was an airline executive before _and_ after he
| wrecked /lead German rail. Rudiger Grube, who succeeded
| him, was a former aerospace and car executive. Many (all?)
| of the chairmen of the board through those years were also
| aerospace executives, e.g. Christoph Franz was at Lufthansa
| before his stint at DB AG and the Lufthansa CEO a couple of
| years after it. Karl-Friedrich Rausch was at Lufthansa for
| 15 years before becoming a leading executive at DB AG.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Great!
|
| I love night trains. For distances of around 1000km, they are
| effectively the fastest way.
|
| Imagine two transports:
|
| - "fast", which can be a plane or high speed train. Travel time
| is around 3h. The plane is faster but with getting in and out of
| the airport, boarding, etc... it takes almost the same amount of
| time in the end.
|
| - The night train, travel time 9h, let's say from 10pm to 7am
|
| You want to get to your destination at some time in the morning.
|
| With the "fast" transport, you have to get up really early and
| take the first train/flight. Expect a short night, and it may not
| even be possible without arriving late. The other option is to
| travel the day before in the evening and book a hotel, not ideal
| either. In any case, you will spend 3 active hours of your day
| for travel, or sleep 3 hours less.
|
| With the night train, you have a good night sleep (generally,
| sleeper trains are comfortable) and didn't waste the best part of
| your day. And you may even save a hotel night.
|
| Think of it as a traveling hotel.
| freeflight wrote:
| There's also the environmental angle where trains are generally
| way more efficient [0] in terms of emissions per passenger,
| particularly compared to plane travel.
|
| [0] http://ecopassenger.hafas.de/
| [deleted]
| emteycz wrote:
| Does this count in the building and maintenance of railroad
| and the movement of all the maintenance/support/construction
| equipment (-> super-heavy diesel trains) etc?
| hmmokidk wrote:
| Don't forget the cost of building and maintaining airports!
| nehalem501 wrote:
| In Europe all the major lines are already electrified, and
| because all the lines were built a long time ago (generally
| in the 19th century), the construction carbon emissions are
| divided between 150 years of transported passengers.
| julienb_sea wrote:
| This is not particularly accurate, train lines have had
| to be rebuilt multiple times to support increasing speed
| of trains. The current TGV lines in use in France are not
| capable of running on old track, they need to be on
| modern infrastructure which continues to be built out.
|
| In any case, I think its fair to say over time trains win
| out over airplanes on emissions, but it isn't that cut
| and dry especially early on.
| iso947 wrote:
| The StopHS2 Anti high speed rail group says that the
| 530km HS2 line (and tons of stations) will generate 1.5
| million tons of co2, for 18,000 seats an hour 12 hours a
| day in each direction.
|
| 400k seats a day, or 150 million a year, for an average
| 10kg co2 per seat in construction costs over the first
| year.
|
| 456km London to Paris is is about 100kg co2 each way per
| seat.
|
| So construction emissions isn't even a dent in the first
| year.
| nehalem501 wrote:
| Night trains won't be high-speed TGV services, they will
| use the regular main lines. Track maintenance needs much
| less energy than building brand new lines. And yes, the
| carbon emissions per passenger are higher for high-speed
| trains compared to the regular ones, mostly because of
| their construction. Of course all of this works when the
| electricity produced by renewables or nuclear. If these
| trains are powered by electricity produced from coal,
| their carbon emissions are equivalent to using diesel
| trains.
| emteycz wrote:
| The maintenance/construction/service vehicles are not
| electric anywhere I've been in Europe, and I use trains
| _a lot_ to do eurotrips.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > (-> super-heavy diesel trains)
|
| Why would you use a super-heavy diesel train to pull night-
| train carriages? Use a little electric one.
| itsangaris wrote:
| I doubt it, but if that's the method of comparison then
| you'd want to include the building and maintenance of the
| airport.
| emteycz wrote:
| Nope - I didn't ask to include train stations. You can
| include runways only.
|
| I have no idea about the numbers, but it wouldn't
| surprise me if including building the railroads and
| maintenance would make plane and (electric) train equal.
| You don't want to know the amount of diesel smoke that's
| coming from the nearby railroad reconstruction.
|
| I wonder where could one find this data
| loufe wrote:
| The thing is, the cost of building rails is amortized
| over, in some cases, well over a hundred years. Most of
| train travels emissions are fixed emissions, marginal
| emissions being much lower. On the flipside, air travel
| has a much smaller fixed emissions amount but drastically
| higher marginal emissions.
|
| Also, it is not my particular field of engineering but
| there is likely no scenario where fuel efficiency of
| planes is better than trains. That you can find sources
| for pretty easily.
| Asraelite wrote:
| Why would you include railways and runways but not train
| stations and airports?
|
| It's not possible to create a new destination, add
| additional capacity to an existing destination, or
| maintain existing capacity without additional costs to
| all major parts of the infrastructure, for both trains
| and planes.
| jnxx wrote:
| The emissions of trains are always many times less.
|
| For a quantitative comparison:
|
| https://www.seat61.com/CO2flights.htm
|
| For example: London to Nice
| Plane: 4 hours, 250 Kg CO2 Train: 8 hours by
| Eurostar+TGV, 36 Kg CO2 85% less
|
| Traveling short to medium distances by plane is simply
| indefensible if you care about climate change. For an
| average European, it can easily make up one third of their
| total yearly carbon emissions, more than 1500kg, or even
| more.
|
| (BTW this is a great and very useful web site, if one likes
| train travel or wants to travel by train in Europe, one
| should seriously have a look!)
| renewiltord wrote:
| Nah, I fly everywhere. The problem is offsetting your
| emissions. Most people are offloading their externalities
| to the Earth. Since climate change is a non-local
| phenomenon you can be carbon negative for very cheap if
| you pay to reduce carbon emissions.
| koyote wrote:
| They are great for weekend trips and you're absolutely right
| about relative time saved.
|
| A trip I've done several times is London to Edinburgh. It's a
| quick flight and even a quick train during the day but if you
| want to spend Saturday and Sunday you'd have to get up early on
| Saturday to catch a plane or train which would get you in by
| noon.
|
| Instead you take the Caledonian Sleeper on Friday evening and
| arrive in the morning in Edinburgh, ready to start the day.
|
| Although you won't get the absolute best night's sleep, if you
| come prepared (sleeping mask + ear plugs) you'll get a very
| decent night's sleep (better than having to wake up early on
| Saturday).
|
| It's also fun going to sleep and waking up somewhere different!
| dan-robertson wrote:
| The Caledonian sleeper is a funny one because the trains got
| to fast so the train now just stops in a siding near
| Edinburgh for a few hours to let people sleep and continues a
| little later in the morning
| Tomte wrote:
| > Think of it as a traveling hotel.
|
| With privacy (alone in compartment) and a non-shared toilet and
| bathroom?
| iso1210 wrote:
| Certainly that's the case on the London-Scotland sleepers.
| jnxx wrote:
| Why do you need that? Are you alone when you travel in a
| plane?
| drran wrote:
| Yes, if you can afford it.
| tpm wrote:
| Yes I took a night train trip from Vienna to (I think)
| Gottingen (final destination was Kassel) last year and was
| able to have a single compartment with bathroom all for
| myself. It was pricey but not pricier than a flight from
| Vienna to Frankfurt and then a train from there to Kassel,
| because low-cost airlines don't fly this route.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| It is possible but expensive.
|
| But the kind of night trains I used to take, no. But that's
| because I was cheap.
|
| I even took regular, non sleeper night trains. Sleeping on
| seats is not as good as on beds but much than on planes or
| buses. These tended to be really cheap.
|
| One interesting thing they did in France was to run high
| speed trains at low speed through the night (iDNiGHT). The
| idea was to get an extra "free" slot. Really cheap (I think I
| paid something like 10EUR for a ~900km trip) but not the most
| comfortable. Still managed to sleep. I liked these but few
| people did, so they cancelled the service.
| roywiggins wrote:
| I took a cheap sleeper train across Germany once and the
| sleeping surface was essentially unpadded. I don't know if
| this is normal- maybe everyone brings their own?- but
| sleeping on an upholstered plank (billed as a "couchette")
| did not make for a restful night. I don't think I slept at
| all.
|
| The joke was that I had a sleeping pad with me, but I
| didn't dare try and dig it out of my pack in the dark
| cramped shared compartment.
| morsch wrote:
| I usually use a thin (cotton/silk) sleeping bag because I
| can't be bothered with the provided linens. No sleeping
| pad, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone use one. I
| think the padding is fine, it's certainly not unpadded.
| The more expensive compartments do have more comfortable
| beds.
| coddle-hark wrote:
| It's not that expensive, we had a private cabin going
| Florence - Munich for about the same price as a hotel
| night. That was with a shared bathroom but we had a sink in
| the room.
| muro wrote:
| I was traveling by night train twice a week for multiple years
| in early 2000s, Vienna to Bonn, Cologne and other places in
| Germany. If I could afford to fly, I would. It got me to the
| destination, but I never learned to fall into relaxing sleep -
| the day after the travel was always bad.
|
| Still better than taking a bus.
| cure wrote:
| > Still better than taking a bus.
|
| A lot better! I once took a UK overnight bus from Birmingham
| to Inverness, it was a horrible experience. Night trains are
| absolutely lovely, by comparison.
| switch007 wrote:
| It's a shame there are no premium coach services in the UK,
| like the Spanish ALSA Premium or the Argentinian Executive
| Bed/First Class Suite services
| RLN wrote:
| I did Amsterdam to London by bus overnight once. From
| memory via Rotterdam, Antwerp and Lille. It was appalling
| but really something to be experienced. The next day was a
| write off but I suppose we didn't help ourselves with pints
| on the ferry and arriving just in time to wait outside
| Wetherspoons for it to open.
|
| I can't wait for Europe to reopen and travel in a more
| civilised manner!
| morsch wrote:
| Did you have a bed or were you in a seat? Because I can't
| sleep sitting, even in the reclining seats available in some
| night trains. But give me anything truly horizontal and I
| sleep decently. I love night trains.
| muro wrote:
| The best sleeping train experience I had was from southern
| Thailand to Bangkok. The whole car was one big compartment,
| but it was surprisingly clean and comfortable.
| jtakkala wrote:
| I've done Surat Thani to Bangkok in a first class sleeper,
| and indeed recall sleeping blissfully. One of my most
| memorable train journeys.
| jvvw wrote:
| I'm laughing at the 'good night's sleep' bit! After a lot of
| sleeper train travelling (mostly in Europe but also Russia and
| China), I still sleep incredibly badly on them and have had
| times where I have arrived exhausted but not able to check-in
| to my hotel for hours.
| Max_aaa wrote:
| For me I have travelled many time in sleep-trains in the post
| soviet countries.
|
| Provided you are in 2nd class or higher, the sleep is
| generally comfortable and lulling. But I might be used to it,
| as we also did often when I was a child and I was used to
| rocking and train noises.
| flemhans wrote:
| Same experience, walking around Lviv at 7am, until I finally
| had to buy a hotel room just to get a 2-3 hours of good sleep
| and then check out again.
|
| They must have thought we booked that room as a "love hotel".
| inglor_cz wrote:
| I took several night trains in my life (Prague-Warsaw,
| Prague-Tatras, Wien-Venezia, Prague-Frankfurt) and while the
| experience is interesting, the shaking movement of the train
| underway plus the freaking loud station loudspeaker
| announcements whenever you arrive somewhere resulted in very
| bad sleep. 2-3 hours at most.
| bluGill wrote:
| Problem is you need a destination that is 7-9 hours away. There
| are not a lot of those. Europe doing away with customs
| inspections at all the borders made it possible.
| hyakosm wrote:
| In 70s - 80s there was custom inspections in every european
| country, and it's still the case in Switzerland and UK.
| jnxx wrote:
| Nah, you can conveniently stop the train in the night so that
| it arrives at breakfast time.
|
| Edit: There is also a system called "Through coach" or
| _Kurswagen_ in German, where you enter a coach in the
| evening, it starts as part of one train, and then, during the
| night, the train stops and it becomes part of another train -
| possibly with another change, and in the morning it arrives
| at your booked destination. (Of course you check the number
| of the coach well before you enter it, heh.)
| coddle-hark wrote:
| Yup, the Nightjet from Munich to Florence stopped for a
| while in Austria when we were travelling a few years ago.
| Kyro38 wrote:
| That's probably because they split the train and/or
| attach another half train from another departure.
|
| From my experience my Nightjet left Dusseldorf to
| Salzburg or Vienna. It split in Nurnberg and merge with
| the train from Berlin (which also had 2 destinations).
| adav wrote:
| It also conveniently gets the train out the way of rush
| hour commuter traffic.
| TruthHurts44 wrote:
| Before the EU you had the border inspection on
| departure/before going to sleep/
| jnxx wrote:
| Or you gave your passport to the conductor.
| itsangaris wrote:
| In theory it would work well in the US as many major cities
| are spread roughly that distance from one another.
| DominikPeters wrote:
| There are a few city pairs that are linked by Amtrak
| overnight, for example Pittsburgh->Chicago,
| Buffalo->Chicago, Omaha->Denver, Flagstaff->LA, Salt Lake
| City -> Reno.
| jnxx wrote:
| As an aside, I used Amtrak to travel from Rochester, NY
| to NYC and it was totally weird when I asked people in
| Rochester (which has a population of about 200,000) for
| the train station. Most people literally didn't know
| where the train station of their city was! And it turned
| out to be as small as a regional rail or European sub-urb
| S-train stop. Only two platforms with no people on it.
| estaseuropano wrote:
| For context: medium sized European city will have
| anything from 12-30 platforms - and often several main
| train stations and several dozen local ones _in_ the
| city. E.g. Brussels, Paris or Berlin have several huge
| stations.
| crispyporkbites wrote:
| Sleepers often wait outside cities for a couple of hours if
| the journey is under 7 hours
| bigbubba wrote:
| Even Amtrak's coach class is a hundred times more comfortable
| than flying coach. I'd sooner spend ten hours in a train than
| two hours on a plane and try to do so whenever I have a chance
| (which is not nearly as often as I'd like.) Not getting
| molested by the TSA is a huge bonus.
| dheera wrote:
| Yes this, and also, it's such a pleasure to just cook food at
| home or visit the supermarket and meander over to the train
| station and eat it on the journey. No restrictions on
| liquids/gels, and you aren't restricted to expensive crappy
| airport fast food.
|
| Restrooms on Amtrak don't make you deaf. No stupid food carts
| blocking the way to the restroom. Even on parts of the world
| that have food service on trains, the carts don't block
| people from walking past them.
|
| You can walk the entire length of the train whenever you feel
| like for exercise.
|
| Turbulence is not a thing on trains, and there's much more
| space to get from the window seat to the aisle without
| needing to crawl over a stranger's lap.
|
| Also, there's scenery almost the whole way.
| cassepipe wrote:
| Could not agree, only trick is : Get yourself some earplugs.
| bigbubba wrote:
| Of course it's a matter of personal preference, but I love
| the _clack-clack_ noise. I think trains are second only to
| coastal ferries for a comfortable night sleep.
| auganov wrote:
| How many such routes are there in Europe? Checked a bunch and
| seems like 9 hours is a decent timing even for the fastest
| train option. While by plane you're always looking at something
| under 2 hours.
| Broken_Hippo wrote:
| Does your flight include all of your travel time?
|
| I mean, I can be at the train station fairly quickly (10
| minute walk): The airport is out of town and I'd take a bus -
| an earlier bus than I think I need just to be safe. Does the
| flight mean that you get a hotel that you could skip on a
| night train? How long are you waiting at the airport?
|
| Airport time isn't just flight time.
| jnxx wrote:
| You need to compare door-to-door time which is a lot longer
| for air travel, partly because the airports are outside of
| the cities while the train stations are in their very heart.
| morsch wrote:
| They stopped service on many routes in the last 10 to 15
| years, this news is about rolling back that policy. 9 hours
| is kind of the ideal length for a night train journey, e.g.
| board at 11 pm, arrive at 8 am.
| vidarh wrote:
| You _want_ sleeper services to take long enough that you don
| 't end up with interrupted sleep. They're not competing on
| speed. They're competing on comfort in a scenario where
| getting there faster doesn't help you.
| dheera wrote:
| YES! I love night trains and I travelled all over Europe and
| China with them. I've travelled probably at least 100000km on
| night trains.
|
| As much as I love high speed trains I hate it when a night
| train that eats zero of your daytime gets taken out of service
| and gets replaced by a high speed day train that eats half of
| daytime.
| jnxx wrote:
| You are perhaps of a different generation. In the 1980s, it
| was possible for young people in Europe to get a all-in-one
| ticket where you could travel as much as you could for four
| weeks in the summer. The tickets costed about 250 EUR. It was
| a bit a thing that defined my generation. People who traveled
| on budget did meticulous time-tables to spend as few nights
| as possible in paid hostels, traveling to Paris then to
| Vienna to Athene to Rome then to some small place in Portugal
| and so on. Returning hungry, exhaustauted and longing for a
| good shower but with bright eyes and full of experiences,
| meeting unknown people, made many new friends, and seeing a
| nice bit of the continent.
|
| It is perhaps one of the reasons why my generation defines
| itself as Europeans. And it is utterly painful to me that my
| young niece and her generation, at least at the moment, can't
| do it.
| dheera wrote:
| I did internships twice in Europe in 2005 and 2007 and used
| railpasses to travel on the weekends to other countries.
| They were a lot more than 250 EUR but it was worth the
| experience and learned a lot in the process.
|
| China is another story -- there are no rail passes and you
| don't need one. The night trains are not that expensive and
| extremely clean and comfortable.
| iso947 wrote:
| Covid of course has caused all sorts of issues but that's
| an odd thing to find utterly painful compared with
| everything else. There's always next year.
| CalRobert wrote:
| My wife and a friend did this about 6 years ago but it was
| tragic, in a way, that they almost always ended up taking
| cheap flights or the odd intercity bus instead of the train
| because it was just cheaper.
| makapuf wrote:
| I'm on the nightrain, I love that stuff I'm on the nightrain,
| an' I can never get enough I'm on the nightrain, never to
| return...
| waihtis wrote:
| In case someone is interested, the "nightrain" referred to
| here is actually a cheap brand of alcohol.
| Jedd wrote:
| We did the Paris -> Barcelona night train back in 2013 - reading
| TFA this sounds like it was just before they stopped running
| them, though I recall back then that they'd only recently re-
| fitted out a lot of the carriages.
|
| It was a 2-berth cabin, with big comfy chairs and a teeny tiny
| shower/bathroom. Boarded at around 9pm, disembarked at 9.30am. On
| boarding they showed us to the cabin, then ushered us off to the
| dining carriage (while they converted the room to bunks).
|
| The package was PS289.00 for the two of us, but in addition to a
| quite fancy meal, as others note, that covered transport _and_
| accommodation for two people. Part of the motivation of course
| was just to try something different. But would, had we stayed in
| Europe, done overnight trains semi-regularly. (The only other
| overnight train we 've done was Mumbai to Bangalore - a
| profoundly different experience.)
|
| More anecdata - the sleep quality was excellent, and I usually
| sleep very lightly & poorly the first night somewhere new.
| leipert wrote:
| Last year I did Berlin -> Paris and Hendaye (French-Spanish
| border)-> Lisbon.
|
| The Berlin -> Paris connection was amazing and actually part of
| the Moscow-Paris connection that runs once per week. The food
| on board was nice (Polish catering wagon).
|
| The Train to Lisbon though was really old and the food well eh.
| But arriving at sunrise in Lisbon was well worth it.
|
| I am happy that the sleeper trains come back to existence, more
| eco friendly, more relaxed traveling, more cargo and less
| restrictions than with air travel (e.g. > 100ml liquids)
| keiferski wrote:
| I once took an overnight train from Paris to Berlin, arrived at
| about 7:00 a.m., and walked clear across the city to my AirBnb
| (from Mitte to south Neukolln, for any Berliners.) It was a
| really fantastic way to discover the city for the first time. I
| don't think flying in to an airport then taking a taxi would have
| been nearly as memorable.
|
| The only problem IMO is that sleeping on a train is not
| comfortable unless you're young. It's basically a minor step up
| from staying in a hostel in terms of noise, other people, and
| general cleanliness. I think there would need to be a dramatic
| upgrade in the quality of sleeping cabins for trains to really
| replace flights.
| erispoe wrote:
| OBB (Austrian Federal Railways), who are slowly taking over
| night train service all over Europe, have single or double
| Deluxe cabins [1]. You can have your privacy and your own
| bathroom with shower. It can be pretty private and comfortable.
|
| [1]: https://www.nightjet.com/en/komfortkategorien/schlafwagen
| mitjak wrote:
| i've had a Deluxe cabin experience with the shower. it was
| wonderful and private but anecdotally i still ended up
| sleeping better in the first class seats of the TGV that we
| had connection to right after the night train
| adav wrote:
| My favourite are the motorrail sleepers where can you load your
| car on the back of the train.
| rcMgD2BwE72F wrote:
| Why not rent the car at the destination?
|
| I can think of not having to move luggage (and/or child seats)
| and feel more "at home" but I can't justify that over not
| moving a ton of metal over hundreds of miles...
| factsaresacred wrote:
| Travelling through Europe by train is a must. Sadly most modern
| trains are sterile zip-locked contraptions.
|
| In Eastern Europe you can still find trains with windows to peek
| out of and doors to dangle your legs from.
|
| Maybe not the safest experience, but certainly the most
| memorable.
| morsch wrote:
| Unfortunately, high speed rail isn't easily compatible with
| open windows. From what I understand, it's a safety concern
| when entering tunnels at high speeds or when passing an
| oncoming train. There's also aerodynamics to consider. I miss
| the windows, too. And it'd have been an easy (if drafty) way to
| make travel safer during the pandemic.
| TigeriusKirk wrote:
| When I did a summer eurailing it across Europe a million years
| ago, the overnight trains were a handy budget saver. Every few
| days take a train to whatever city was an overnight journey away
| and save on lodging costs. Not the most organized way to travel,
| but it was fine when I was 20.
| jaco8 wrote:
| The time of the night trains in Europe was the seventies with all
| kinds of nice routes like Lisabon-Paris,Munich-Roma,Amsterdam-
| Vienna,Munich-Copenhagen,Vienna-Oostende,Helsinki-Oulu-
| Narvik,Bodo-Oslo and many more come to mind. Hopefully these kind
| of trips will be possible again.
| notJim wrote:
| I took night trains a handful of times in China, and loved it.
| China is big enough that you can get a nice long journey in. I
| found that people were respectful and quiet for the most part, so
| I didn't have any trouble sleeping.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| Same here. The first thing I look for when I want to visit a
| country is if there's night trains or other cool train routes
| available to explore. It's by far my favourite way to travel.
| kharak wrote:
| I used one, once. Ride took roughly 10 hours. 6 seats cabine,
| with people leaving and boarding a couple of times. Never again.
|
| Love the concept. But execution needs to be premium (cabine / bed
| for myself, pleasent looking interior) and cheaper than
| alternatives. Otherwise plane or car are the superior options.
|
| Really hoping this will work out well.
| iso1210 wrote:
| You bought the cheapest ticket going - a 6 berth couchette. You
| could have instead chosen a 4 berth, or a 1-2-3 private cabin.
|
| Paris to Venice for example (pre covid), prices in the 6 berth
| couchette were EUR29, a 1 berth sleeper EUR170.
| z2 wrote:
| Indeed.
|
| > You need special rolling stock, they only make one journey
| per day, and can't carry intermediate passengers -- nobody
| would board at 2 a.m."
|
| This was not the case on almost every overnight train I've
| taken (not in Europe). With non-private cabins (or worse,
| standard seats), there's nothing as dreadful as the sound of
| people boarding or leaving every hour through the entire night.
|
| I've most reliably slept on trains where the journey is usually
| short, say four hours, yet the night itinerary is stretched to
| 7 or 8 hours. That's usually a sign the train will stop before
| the destination and wait until the next morning before pulling
| in.
| freeflight wrote:
| _> there 's nothing as dreadful as the sound of people
| boarding or leaving every hour through the entire night._
|
| That really depends on the individual. Personally I really
| like that kind of background noise when trying to sleep. I
| will usually listen to music with headphones and what gets
| trough is dampened so much that it nearly qualifies as
| "ambient" music.
|
| But I've spend quite some time as a kid in overnight trains
| travelling between West-East Germany and Yugoslavia, and even
| more time in my teens travelling by train across central
| Europe.
|
| I kind of like the whole experience even without a private
| cabin. A bit like a travelling hotel with changing sights. I
| can take along a couple of books and whatever food and drink
| I like, without having to worry about weird security rules.
|
| In contrast to that long-distance air travel evokes only
| negative associations for me: Dry circulated air, pressure on
| the ears, cramped seats, the feeling of being stuck in a
| completely sealed metal tube, the "streamy" noise coming from
| the engines is really annoying compared to the rhythm of the
| sounds a train makes. When walking around on a plane there is
| nothing really to see because you can only walk between rows
| of seats with very small windows, which makes me feel weirdly
| guilty.
|
| While on a train I can walk the full distance back and forth,
| taking in some of the sights trough the much larger windows.
| It's also considered much more normal than pacing between the
| seating aisles of a plane.
| blt wrote:
| The dry air in airplanes is not circulated. The cabin is
| pressurized with air from the compressor stage of the jet
| engine. Pressure is regulated by letting some air out of
| the cabin. It feels stale because the rate of air
| replacement is not fast enough.
|
| I agree with all your other dislikes of air travel though
| :) I wish we had more high-speed rail in the USA.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabin_pressurization#Mechanic
| s
| elric wrote:
| It takes some getting used to. I used to make frequent trips
| by overnight coach between the north of England and Belgium.
| The coach would make several stops throughout the night,
| people would come and go, there was a pesky check at the
| UK/France border, etc. It was a dreadful experience (sleep
| wise) the first couple of times. But after a while I got used
| to it and just slept through the whole thing. Even managed
| the pesky border check while half asleep.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| Can we get the Hellas Express back? Dortmund -> Athens. It was
| ended by the war(s) in the former Yugoslavia. Yeah, cheap EU
| flights probably eat into its viability now, but I rode that
| train all the way to Athens twice and it was two of the most
| memorable (if uneventful) experiences of my life.
| vladgur wrote:
| Im surprised Seat61[1] has not been shared yet. All you need to
| know about Train travel in the world including night trains
|
| [1] https://www.seat61.com/
| gumby wrote:
| Sleeper trains were _de rigeur_ for our travel when I was a kid
| in the 60s and 70s: Paris-Simplon, The Flying Scotsman and
| regular trips between Melbourne and Adelaide. All are now gone,
| or recreated as shadows of their former selves.
|
| A 1980s trip on the trans Siberian express: I remember it as
| being "third class", though perhaps it was simply not first
| class; the idea of classes of service in a soviet train amused
| me, though the realities of the spartan accomodation made it only
| technically a "sleeper". But the friendly fellow travelers made
| up for it.
|
| About 15 years ago we took sleeper service from Paris to Berlin,
| in a bid to convince my wife that it was a fun way to travel. It
| was not.
| Ericson2314 wrote:
| > Austria's OBB
|
| They were sponsoring some Rust thing. I'd say they are on top of
| their game in more ways than 1.
| locallost wrote:
| It's a really nice way to travel for families. We've used it
| several times, and despite the fact that I don't sleep amazingly
| well on them, the fact I can stash my kid and not hear a word
| about being tired and bored until the next day is really amazing.
| And then you get breakfast, and sit in pyjamas, watching the
| landscape as the train takes a smooth ride to your final
| destination. It's just a nice way to start your day.
|
| Sadly the German Railways cut them out a couple years ago. As
| mentioned in the article, they were replaced by the Austrian
| trains (and also Hungarian), but the options became more and more
| complicated, at least for me (e.g. instead of boarding in
| Germany, go to Prague, and then board at 2AM).
| deanclatworthy wrote:
| I have found them to be highly uncomfortable. I've taken several
| night trains in and around Central Europe and the rooms are
| claustrophobic, and god help you if you are in a four person.
| There's barely any room for two people to stand. I've had
| arguments about temperature control where a lower bunk wanted air
| con off as it blew on their face, leaving it about 40c on the top
| bunk in summer overnight.
|
| In Finland I've taken one of the more "luxurious" cabins with two
| bunks and a tiny shower. It's marginally better but the walls are
| made or paper and the train stops during the night and you are
| awoken by passengers coming and going and worse the beeping of
| doors closing. This is with silicon earplugs.
| fsiefken wrote:
| I remember the time when I was a kid and travelling with my
| brother and parents that there were 6 people sleeping in a
| cabin, so two other adults we didn't know. Last time when we
| took a car/sleeptrain from Dusseldorf to Austria I used an over
| the earmuff or an overear sony nois ecancellation combined with
| earplugs. Works well
| Kankuro wrote:
| I used to take one in France, but I could not sleep well (like
| when taking an overnight flight) and arrived tired. It was a
| alternative to spending 5.5 hours in the train during the day,
| or flying. (then this service stopped) One thing that is
| missing is the possibility to take a shower before leaving. I
| don't think there is any public shower in train stations in
| France any more. Same problem with night coaches: after having
| walked in a city the whole day, I don't want to make the
| experience bad for the other travellers.
| Sharlin wrote:
| It's beyond crazy that intra-EU flying ever became as cheap as it
| did. Truly an example of externalized costs.
| johannes1234321 wrote:
| I would assume (without much research) that this artsy due to
| government support for EADS/Airbus in competition with Boeing.
|
| Also interesting: Lufthansa is the company which probably good
| biggest single Corona-support, yet, in Germany.
| ploika wrote:
| Further conjecture I heard that I'm repeating with no
| supporting evidence: it was partly a side effect the Cold
| War.
|
| All the new airports built well outside cities meant that low
| cost airlines could offer flights to (near) a major city
| fairly cheaply, which in turn pulled down prices for the
| entire market.
| DaedPsyker wrote:
| Nothing to do with the planes themselves. Basically Ryanair
| business practice forcing competitors to up their game
| resulted in an ultra-competitive slim margin industry.
| iso1210 wrote:
| On top of that many smaller cities actually paid airlines
| to fly to their muicipal airport. The idea that Brest would
| pay EUR2000 a day to fly 200 passengers from London to
| Brest, and those passengers would spend far more than EUR10
| each in the local economy.
| Shivetya wrote:
| tl;dr
|
| The simple matter is air travel is stupid convenient between
| any two points not directly connected or where the two points
| are far apart. Its faster by far on longer distances and
| scheduling is far more flexible.
|
| ... long way around
|
| The cost structure that exist is because train transport
| suffers some serious disadvantages airlines are not stuck with.
| If you want to claim an externalized cost that may not be paid
| in full your only choice is fuel costs but understand only a
| little over half of rail in the EU is electric. Even with
| higher fuel taxes trains will be at a disadvantage as shown
| below.
|
| Airline travel schedules, capacity, and routes, can be varied
| as needed. Trains are locked into sharing tracks, may have have
| service requirements, and as a result cannot vary their
| schedules by much if at all.
|
| Airline travel can also add and drop destinations with ease.
| Trains obviously require connections to each point separately.
| Rail construction, maintenance, to include tracks and
| facilities, can rival or exceed air ports.
|
| Trains have the additional cost of staffing requirements
| imposed by various governments along with capacity requirements
| that can be out of date.
|
| Finally, while trains have the advantages of lower cost for the
| train and carriages adding routes is just terribly expensive
| and their environmental advantage is being eroded as other
| forms of ground transport move to electric and all bets are off
| once air can be done that way
| jlelse wrote:
| IMHO it's a shame. No taxes on fuel while train companies have
| to pay taxes on electricity.
| tW4r wrote:
| I would love to use trains more in Europe, but their prices
| cannot compete with cheap flight providers at all, 30ish EUR
| flights pretty much from any country to any country in Europe are
| hard to beat
| TooCreative wrote:
| Flying is a lot of hassle though. You need to go to the airport
| which is far away from the center. In most cities half an hour
| to an hour. And you have to arrive at least an hour before your
| flight takes of. And you cannot buy a ticket spontaneously.
|
| I love trains. They often go every hour. You can spontaneously
| take them. Right from the center. And you arrive right in the
| center. And you can freely chose your seat. So you can pick a
| pleasant neighbor. Or just change seat if your neighbor annoys
| you.
| johannes1234321 wrote:
| Especially night trains - if you are able to sleep in that
| somewhat noisy and shaky environment. You travel overnight,
| where you can't do anything anyways and come up in the other
| place in the morning and have the full day available. When
| flying you typically need a hotel night more and have to get
| to city center first.
| TooCreative wrote:
| I never tried a night train. Are there any good ones in
| Europe?
| johannes1234321 wrote:
| Austrian OBB, which runs in multiple countries like most
| lines going through Germany, is working on modernizing
| their trains, but they also have quite old cars. Not sure
| if there is a good site showing car types and train
| lines. https://www.nightjet.com/en/komfortkategorien/nigh
| tjetzukunf...
| TooCreative wrote:
| I was on that site a couple of times but never managed to
| find out which routes offer a single cabin for yourself.
|
| I would not want to have strangers sleeping next to me.
| johannes1234321 wrote:
| During Cornona this probably is different, but here's the
| relevant page:
| https://www.nightjet.com/en/komfortkategorien/ganzes-
| abteil-...
| TooCreative wrote:
| Well, that is a page which describes the options.
|
| Bit have you tried the "Book ticket" button?
|
| For me, it simply goes to the start page.
|
| So I still don't know how to find the routes that offer
| these options.
| eesmith wrote:
| https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/nightjet.htm
| suggests that (nearly?) every route offers a single
| compartment.
|
| That is, "Most Nightjet trains use Comfortline sleeping-
| cars built by Siemens in 2003-2005 for German Railways'
| City Night Line sleeper trains." and "Below: Comfortline
| sleeper layout. All compartments can be sold as a single,
| double or triple."
| TooCreative wrote:
| Well, have you tried it?
|
| Every time I try to book a trip, the single compartment
| is grey and says that this option is not available for
| this trip.
| eesmith wrote:
| When did you try?
|
| I picked 14 April 2021, leaving Wien Hvf (U) at 20:13
| arriving Berlin at 08:55. "Sparschiene Nachtverkehr
| Nightjet + Anschlussticket Nightjet." "Sleeper Bed",
| "Compartment with 1 bed (Single)".
|
| EUR 216,00.
|
| Bear in mind the comment at https://www.nightjet.com/en/
| : "Due to the travel restrictions caused by the corona
| pandemic, we are reducing the Nightjet traffic to
| probably 8 February 2021 ... As a precautionary measure,
| no bookings are currently possible for the affected
| trains from January 10th to March 24th, 2021", confirming
| johannes1234321's comment "During Cornona this probably
| is different".
| standardUser wrote:
| Personally, I can't start a day without a proper bathroom
| to shower and groom myself. An overnight train doesn't even
| come close to a hotel replacement in my book.
| kennydude wrote:
| Ideally you could have a lounge area at the start and end
| stations where passengers can shower and generally
| freshen themselves up. Kings Cross in London already has
| shower facilities, which are wonderful for long days as a
| tourist.
| johannes1234321 wrote:
| For a true hotel room comparison you can go to Japan
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Stars_in_Kyushu
|
| In general however it is a compromise. At least "true"
| sleeper cars often have a (shared, small) shower, but
| yes, no comparison to equally expensive hotel rooms.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| Well I sort of prefer night trains also, in theory at least,
| but I have to say where I am in a suburb of Copenhagen, it
| takes me 20 minutes to get to the center station where I
| could conceivably board a night train.
|
| And I couldn't really spontaneously take a train to the
| center station where I would then catch a night train because
| of course I have to make sure I get there in time for the
| train going to where I want to go.
| flemhans wrote:
| The upcoming night trains will depart from Hoje Taastrup
| since they arrive from Sweden, and don't want to go to the
| Central Station just to turn around (takes another hour or
| so to do).
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| So even longer for me.
| yardie wrote:
| Does that include the 15-30 euro transport to and from the
| airport? Only a handful of airports are in the city centre.
| awiesenhofer wrote:
| If you travel longer routes sure, but to neighbouring cities
| and countries? Here in Vienna I can get to all larger nearby
| cities and capitals for 30-50EUR in a cheap seat that easily
| beats anything economy class on a plane has to offer. The
| journey takes longer of course (sometimes), which may not be
| for everyone but I take a longer ride vs all the airport hassle
| any day. Plus on a train first class is something you can
| actually afford if you want more space and quiet (another 30 to
| 50EUR extra here).
| EdwinLarkin wrote:
| The point of travel is to get from point A to point B as fast
| as possible. It's never about the journey and it's always
| about the destination.
|
| The only hassle at the airport is all in your head. As a
| frequent traveler (I used to fly every 2 weeks) all the
| screening and getting to the airport was a chore, not
| something to be angsty about.
| danw1979 wrote:
| I'll bet you've never been through airport security
| carrying a bored toddler, pushing a buggy (in which you
| have balanced a child car seat), two extra bags full of
| baby stuff over your shoulder, all whilst your trousers are
| falling down because they made you take your belt off ?
|
| It's absolutely the worst way to start and end a holiday.
| pkulak wrote:
| Probably better if you subtract the hotel stay you'd otherwise
| have to make.
| TooCreative wrote:
| Does it really spare you a hotel stay?
|
| With a plane, I leave at 10:00 in the morning, arrive at say
| 14:00 in the other city and check into a hotel at 15:00.
|
| With a train, I leave at 22:00 in the evening before, arrive
| at say 10:00 in the other city and check into a hotel at
| 15:00.
|
| Same amount of hotel stays. A few more hours in the other
| city. But since I have to carry around my luggage and don't
| have a shower and toilet, I am not sure if those hours are a
| plus or a minus.
| cinntaile wrote:
| The point would be to skip that hotel stay alltogether by
| arriving the next day. If you have things to do during the
| afternoon the day before resulting in an extra night then
| it will not save anything.
| lastofthemojito wrote:
| Obviously depends on the user. When I was younger I tried
| the night train thing on a trip that hopped a few European
| cities. So, stay in Munich for 2 nights, then on the 3rd
| night, get on the train to Vienna. Stay in Vienna for 2
| nights and get on another train ...
|
| Basically spending 2 out of 3 nights in hotels due to the
| night train (compared to if we'd done the same itinerary
| but with daytime trains).
| notJim wrote:
| You're missing a night somewhere. Day 1 10:00 - Day 1 14:00
| means you need a hotel room Day 1. Day 1 22:00 - Day 2
| 10:00 (more like 6:00 IME tho) means no hotel room for Day
| 1.
|
| Train stations in Germany at least generally have luggage
| lockers, so you can just leave your stuff there. It's not
| hassle free, of course, but pretty convenient. Not sure if
| that's common in other countries.
| vladgur wrote:
| you can a)leave your luggage at the hotel early b) use a
| locker at the train station to store your luggage c) avoid
| bringing a lot of luggage for this trip
| pkulak wrote:
| Back in the old days when I traveled for work, I had to be
| in the other office at 9am, which meant I would travel the
| previous afternoon and grab an extra night at the hotel.
|
| Even with your example, you're getting an extra day in your
| destination without an extra hotel stay.
| kgwgk wrote:
| You assume you were at home before taking the plane or the
| train. Sometimes you'are travelling from one hotel to
| another.
| morsch wrote:
| Leave at 10 pm, arrive at 8 am in Austria, connecting train
| to a village in the middle of the Alps, get some last
| minute supplies, start hiking at 10 am, arrive at the
| mountain hut at 5 pm. Not really feasible with air travel
| without spending a night in the valley where you don't
| actually want to be as 2 or 3 pm is too late to start the
| hike. Admittedly that is a very specific example.
|
| For city travel, I've had good experiences with hotels that
| let me check in early (before noon). I've _never_ had a
| hotel that wouldn 't let me stash my luggage before check-
| in.
| bergie wrote:
| Quite a few of the night trains I've taken have had
| showers. Sometimes shared per car, but in the more modern
| ones usually in the cabin.
|
| Night trains really are the closest to teleportation that
| humans have come up with yet.
| throw0101a wrote:
| > _30ish EUR flights pretty much from any country to any
| country in Europe are hard to beat_
|
| Might this change with carbon pricing?
|
| AFAICT, most trains are electric and so (depending on the
| method of generation) be better with climate change?
| Al-Khwarizmi wrote:
| Because they are heavily subsidized. Plane fuel doesn't even
| pay taxes in Europe.
| awiesenhofer wrote:
| Austrias OBB getting new sleeper cars for their night trains
| (mentioned in the article) also was discussed here on HN last
| year:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20324992
|
| Link to the article featuring the rendered designs from back
| then:
|
| https://www.priestmangoode.com/project/new-intercity-and-nig...
| mig39 wrote:
| From the article:
|
| "One economic analyst and trainspotter said night trains will
| never disappear because planes will never be allowed to fly at
| night."
|
| lol :-(
|
| They don't have night flights in Europe? Or is this "economic
| analyst" not aware of them?
| realityking wrote:
| > They don't have night flights in Europe?
|
| Only very few. Part of it is because of night time flight
| restrictions at any airport near a population center (which are
| generally the airports that could support flights at odd
| hours). For example, Heathrow is severely restricted between
| 23:30 and 6:00. Frankfurt is restricted between 23:00 and 5:00.
|
| The other part of it is that the distances involve are
| relatively short. London to Paris is 1.5h. London to Berlin 2h.
| Even London to Moscow is less than 4.5h.
|
| It's almost impossible to have an actual overnight journey like
| you can have flying from New York to San Francisco.
| tpmx wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_flying_restrictions
|
| Night flight restrictions are quite common in Europe.
|
| Not for all airports though. I don't think Stockholm/Arlanda
| has such a restriction - it's located in the middle of nowhere
| for a reason.
| mig39 wrote:
| Oh wow!
|
| The reason I thought it was funny is because I visit Europe
| every summer, and I _always_ have a night flight.
|
| Leaving Canada before midnight, and arriving in Europe just
| in time for breakfast.
|
| I guess a better way to put it would be no landing or taking
| off at night :-)
| tpmx wrote:
| Yeah, I don't really have any firm data, but I think the
| reason most most flights from/to Europe are scheduled the
| way they are.. is because of this.
| iandanforth wrote:
| I love the Berlin -> Vienna route that already exists. The
| private cabins could do with a bit of a facelift, but it really
| is a nice experience to wake up in a new country without any of
| the hassle of an airport.
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