[HN Gopher] Show HN: Find the safest well lit walking route betw...
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Show HN: Find the safest well lit walking route between two
locations
Author : mfbx9da4
Score : 155 points
Date : 2020-12-21 14:02 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| ilyas121 wrote:
| Where does the data come from for defining sketch areas?
| no-dr-onboard wrote:
| Ooh, what an excellent question. Is the data crowdsourced, if
| so, by whom? What defines sketchy areas _besides crime_.
|
| What an excellent opportunity for consistency by certain
| worldviews.
| Solocomplex wrote:
| Imagine the shit storm if Google made "safe" paths.
| DavidPeiffer wrote:
| Microsoft has a patent issued in 2012 for this very
| topic...and as you predicted, there were many news articles
| and questions about ethics brought up. [1]
|
| Given the market share Google Maps has, the economic
| fallout from them suddenly avoiding certain areas deemed
| "unsafe" could swing billions of dollars annually from one
| set of businesses to another.
|
| [1] https://www.npr.org/2012/01/25/145337346/this-app-was-
| made-f...
| maxerickson wrote:
| They probably do, even just by factoring in how popular
| segments are. I agree there would be a shit storm if they
| labeled certain paths as safer though.
| walshemj wrote:
| @bestofnextdoor
|
| More seriously there are some serious ethical concerns people
| are missing here.
| pimlottc wrote:
| From the article:
|
| > For this hackathon we used data about whether a street is lit
| or not from Open Street Map. Later we could incorporate
| official UK gov data about street lighting or even incorporate
| satellite imaging data.
| confidantlake wrote:
| That is a great idea! Often I find walking directions put me on
| busy, unsafe streets, or make me take unsafe crossings. Didn't
| even think about the well lit part, but that is important as
| well. Gl with this!
| AdmiralGinge wrote:
| This could really be a game-changer for me when we're allowed
| to travel again. I have a rare condition where a problem with
| brain metabolism screws up the signal to noise ratio in
| multiple senses, by day I'm quite photophobic and by night I
| can't see a thing thanks to "TV static" in my vision. Having a
| navigation tool that sticks to well-lit areas would be an
| amazing improvement over existing tools for me!
| Roritharr wrote:
| Out of curiosity, what's the name of your condition?
|
| I have a friend where this could apply.
| superimposition wrote:
| Ditto. Additionally, Google Maps makes me try to cross streets
| that technically shouldn't be crossed by pedestrians.
| ISL wrote:
| Google Maps has functionality for reporting problems. I've
| done the same when it suggested an unsafe bicycle street-
| crossing and they updated the routing.
| Someone wrote:
| It may take a while for such information to make it to the
| map. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/dec/20/google-
| maps-po...:
|
| "His problem was that the postcode for his east London flat
| was incorrect on Google Maps, so any driver using the
| service for navigation ended up not at his address, but in
| parkland at Three Mills Green, Bromley-by-Bow, half a mile
| away as the crow flies, but a mile and a half to drive.
|
| What was an easily fixable error resulted in three years of
| frustration for Borghs, who first noticed the problem when
| an Uber driver took a wrong turn when taking him home."
| Triv888 wrote:
| Google sure loves free employees...
| thesimon wrote:
| As long as I don't have to pay obscene amounts for
| navigation, especially in the car, I don't mind.
| Triv888 wrote:
| In my Mazda, I only had to buy a $30 SD card from Ebay to
| make navigation functional
| capableweb wrote:
| If I were you, I would stop buying random SD cards from
| the internet and connect to my devices, especially things
| like my car.
| underyx wrote:
| Heya, congrats on getting on the HN front page! I'm Bence, one of
| the judges from hack.travel, where I believe this project
| originated. (Note for bystanders: the project got first place at
| that hackathon.)
|
| I wonder what's been up with the project and why the sudden
| activity? Have you been doing anything cool behind the scenes?
| mfbx9da4 wrote:
| lol no and thanks! I recently posted an email validator I built
| about a year ago with not much thought
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25440220 Today, I noticed
| my github stars went through the roof on that repo so I thought
| I should probably post some of my other repos too!
| Gys wrote:
| Interesting, especially when usage patterns emerge. I wonder for
| which countries, cities and neighborhoods this ends up being used
| mostly.
|
| I guess usage relates to safety.
| karussell wrote:
| I once implemented a similar thing (safe way to school) with
| GraphHopper at my first hackathon (and probably last ;)) and that
| although our team even won that hackathon :D
|
| https://github.com/karussell/nordhopper
|
| There is no shiny mobile app only a simple web app. But we also
| considered crash data which is IMO very important. Additionally
| with GraphHopper walking routes avoid bigger streets and consider
| many signals from OpenStreetMap data.
|
| The best feature is the customizable routing where you can change
| your preferences per request because it is not clear if a longer
| detour along lits is really safer if it is twice the length and
| at which point your personal preferences are or how you wish to
| consider other signals in the data.
| 0x008 wrote:
| I wonder how you would define a proper loss function for this?
| You probably need to optimize distance versus "sketchyness". How
| would one go about that? Also every user probably has a different
| feeling about how much sketch they will endure to save a couple
| minutes walking distance.
| gradstudent wrote:
| From the description of the backend:
|
| > Clean geojson to remove dark pathways.
|
| Doesn't this eliminate routes with tradeoffs? e.g., cutting
| through a small park or alleyway may not be so risky (the other
| end is visible, both ends are well lit) while the alternative
| route may be very long in comparison?
| anonunivgrad wrote:
| Would be more useful to map based on reported muggings and
| pedestrian-car collisions, since that's what you're actually
| trying to avoid and we have really good data for them. But
| previous attempts to build similar apps have been shut down as
| "racist."
| smurf_t wrote:
| I have attended a talk of a team who built something similar few
| years ago, it might be interesting for you
| http://goodcitylife.org/happymaps/index.php
| Cyber_squad wrote:
| Coll but how you collect the source of light point in each roads?
|
| Are the application actively recording light intensity? Are they
| coming from open-data?
| tekacs wrote:
| From the Github page:
|
| > For this hackathon we used data about whether a street is lit
| or not from Open Street Map. Later we could incorporate
| official UK gov data about street lighting or even incorporate
| satellite imaging data.
|
| It sounds like getting the data right wasn't the focus yet:
|
| > Later we could incorporate many other kinds of data such as
| safe checkpoints trivially. The core technical challenge was
| wrangling the data and writing our own custom routing
| algorithm.
| maxerickson wrote:
| This is a common pattern for OSM. The tool to use the data
| helps locate areas where the data isn't complete (say you
| plan a route through an area you know and it doesn't make
| sense).
| mfbx9da4 wrote:
| Correct the primary data source was open street map.
| igjeff wrote:
| I'm curious what you're looking for in OSM. I looked at
| highway=street_lamp and the results were....let's say
| "sparse".
| Freak_NL wrote:
| The _lit_ -key is used on ways and indicates the lighting
| of it:
|
| https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lit
|
| The _highway=street_lamp_ tag indicates that there is a
| lamppost (which can be a navigational aid), but is a much
| more detailed form of mapping that should be used in
| addition to the _lit_ -key on the ways themselves.
| cbdumas wrote:
| This is cool, however there is an implicit assertion here that
| better lit = safer. As far as I can tell this is questionable at
| best, a decent roundup of studies can be found here
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/02/what-...
| petermcneeley wrote:
| "For fear of his yasa and punishment his followers were so well
| disciplined that during his reign no traveller, so long as he was
| near his army, had need of guard or patrol on any stretch of road
| ; and, as is said by way of hyperbole, a woman with a golden
| vessel on her head might walk alone without fear or dread."
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3x0ae1/was_t...
| raziel2p wrote:
| What point are you trying to make?
| Talanes wrote:
| Perhaps just that the topic of road safety has been discussed
| for millennia? I doubt they are arguing for the restoration
| of Mongol rule, if that's what you're worried about.
| uoaei wrote:
| This gives me the same strong negative impression as the Citizen
| and Nextdoor apps.
|
| The idea makes sense in some abstract theoretical way, but in
| practice this will simply reflect the biases of users by
| representing the subjective "sketchiness" of (typically) poorer
| areas, leading to gentrified travel routes that siphon yet more
| business away from communities who could really use it.
| celim307 wrote:
| I don't doubt that happens but the flip side is that in my area
| the food trucks and mom and pop locations have been getting a
| big boost from people in the neighboring gentrified
| neighborhood giving them shout outs or sharing job
| opportunities. My neighbor has started selling her mother's
| tamales starting on next door and now has enough business to
| stop working in an Amazon warehouse.
|
| My area is probably not representative of most Nextdoor
| communities however
| uoaei wrote:
| That's awesome!
|
| I am only speaking out because I get the sense from this
| community (and having worked in the tech industry for long
| enough) that such externalities are not really considered
| when designing apps like this one. The other comments give a
| hint to the proportion of time that these concerns and issues
| are discussed.
|
| I see all the time only the consideration of "could" without
| any regard for "should".
| floren wrote:
| It is currently using openstreetmap data to determine if a
| street is lit or not. There is no user feedback declaring a
| place "sketchy".
| uoaei wrote:
| That's good and I hope it stays that way. I also hope that
| OSM data remains faithful to real conditions, and that other
| factors such as poor street/sidewalk quality, etc. which can
| have significant correlation with underserved communities
| aren't included in the app in the future.
| LudwigNagasena wrote:
| It is sad how everything nowadays is expected to be curated by
| PMCs with degrees in social work because everyone else is
| considered too stupid to not be biased.
| uoaei wrote:
| Not stupid, just uncritical.
|
| I could share with you many stories from FAANG privacy
| compliance groups about how little engineers think about the
| impacts of their releases.
| anonunivgrad wrote:
| Maybe I care more about not being mugged than doing racial
| justice in where I choose to walk. Certain neighborhoods
| being crime-infested hellholes is not my problem.
| uoaei wrote:
| False equivalence, and false dichotomy. Poorly argued
| point.
| qorrect wrote:
| "gentrified travel routes that siphon yet more business away
| from communities who could really use it" <- that made my day
| kudos.
| leetcrew wrote:
| as other commenters have mentioned, the project currently
| defines "safe" as "well-lit" and does not take any other
| factors into account. the potential next steps listed do not
| involve asking users for their opinion on what areas are
| sketchy.
|
| while it's important not to conflate "poor" with "unsafe", I
| don't think it's unreasonable or unfair for individuals to try
| to avoid walking around in areas with a higher rate of violent
| crime. as long as the service makes a good faith attempt at
| objectivity, I don't feel there is anything wrong with a
| service providing this sort of information. crime maps might be
| a good place to start looking for data.
| ebg13 wrote:
| Nice idea and implementation!
|
| In case you plan to move this from hackathon experiment to real
| product, to me the second letter in the logo splash (first image
| in the readme) looks like an "l" instead of the "r" that it's
| supposed to be. So I first read it as "BlightPath" which is
| probably not desired.
| jhowell wrote:
| Use technology to protect users from walking down streets
| populated by people negatively impacted by socioeconomic
| conditions (poverty, mental health, food insecurity), or use
| technology to bring awareness and compassion to the most
| vulnerable.
| civilized wrote:
| Believe it or not, it is possible to both have compassion for
| those in poverty, struggling with mental health issues, etc.
| AND want to avoid being mugged.
|
| Only a ridiculously privileged and sheltered person would think
| these things are somehow mutually exclusive. I can hear all the
| hardworking immigrants in rough neighborhoods rolling their
| eyes.
|
| I don't understand why some people talk as if compassion
| entails complete vulnerability. Seems like a lot of
| grandstanding.
| anonunivgrad wrote:
| Nothing does social justice like getting mugged.
| Ecstatify wrote:
| It's in Show HN. The person built a tool that could be
| genuinely useful to some people. You go build your social
| project and stop shittin' on other people's projects.
| lainga wrote:
| Are you implying an exclusive-or?
| fouric wrote:
| How is your comment at all related to the linked project? It
| literally just attempts to determine how brightly-lit the
| physical area is and uses that to plan a walking route.
| Vinnl wrote:
| Question: I solve quests in StreetComplete [1], and one of the
| things it asks me is whether a stretch of way is lit. Sometimes,
| these stretches can be very short (like 1m), e.g. at
| intersections. I typically only mark those as lit if there's a
| streetlamp directly on it - so if there's not, I'll mark it as
| unlit even though nearby streetlamps do shine on it.
|
| Is that the right thing to do?
|
| [1] https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete
| zamadatix wrote:
| If the question asks "is it lit" I'd respond based on if it was
| normally lit in some way at night or not. Where streetlamps are
| is a separate question that can only imply if a section is
| normally lit or not.
| ilovefood wrote:
| Very good job with this. I am working on a similar project and I
| was wondering if you are planning on hosting your own OSM tiles
| or using a service (Mapbox is listed, but are you going with
| that?) ? Thanks!
| pimlottc wrote:
| A similar idea I've often thought about would be a route planner
| than finds the path with the most shade on hot days. You'd have
| to take topography and building heights into account, along with
| the time of day. Weather is a factor too - overcast skies? Great!
| Would be an interesting problem to work on.
| realjohng wrote:
| Great idea. I can certainly relate to the feeling of thinking
| "this is sketch" while following a google map route.
|
| Google should just build this feature in.
| _jahh wrote:
| What I would even more like to see is municipal governments use
| this sort of a tool to identify areas for improvement.
| dharmab wrote:
| Microsoft patented the feature (but has not implemented it,
| AFAIK).
|
| http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=H...
| rafram wrote:
| Wow, reading patents sucks. A quick read of the text would
| lead you to believe (incorrectly, I think) that the patent is
| for any system which provides different routes to pedestrians
| than to cars. They skirt around defining exactly what they'd
| like to protect.
| spicybright wrote:
| Eh, it's not bad, but phones are so distracting while walking. I
| use walking directions sometimes and it's like wearing blinders
| to an extent. You need all your senses in focus if you really
| want to be safe while walking somewhere unfamiliar.
| leetcrew wrote:
| ideally you would have your route committed to memory before
| starting the walk. still, it's better to whip out your phone
| every few blocks than to accidentally walk through a place you
| didn't intend to.
| ape4 wrote:
| A route where there are other people is more important than well
| lit. Eg a busy shopping street vs a well-lit back street.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| The Tenderloin is a busy place, but I wouldn't walk through it
| compared to a well-lit back street outside the Tenderloin.
| Talanes wrote:
| Yeah, but I'll also take a sketchy crowd in the Tenderloin at
| 10pm over being in the Richmond at 1am with nobody around
| except that one car that keeps circling the blocks.
| dcolkitt wrote:
| Depends on the neighborhood. The average open-air drug market
| in the Tenderloin is dangerous precisely because of how busy it
| is.
|
| Crowds are a decent security by obscurity mechanism, but only
| if you blend in. If you code as an outsider (e.g. a Japanese
| tourist in West Philly), then bustle might be a bug not a
| feature. More potential predators' attention to catch.
| ghaff wrote:
| So many factors play into both subjective and objective
| safety. This is an interesting project but I'm not sure how
| you algorithmically encode the route you should probably walk
| if you're going from the Hilton on O'Farrell to the Moscone.
| usmannk wrote:
| The most direct route (stockton->market->howard) is
| actually the one I'd take in that case. What do you think
| it should suggest?
| ghaff wrote:
| I guess that actually is a tad shorter--and the preferred
| route Google Maps gives you. A lot of people would be
| inclined to cut down to Market though because it seems
| more direct. (Google does give this as an alternate and
| the two are basically the same distance.)
| Talanes wrote:
| O'Farrel to Market on Mason is definitely more shady than
| going down Stockton. Not so shady that I've personally
| felt unsafe, but it's the kind of place I have to step
| around a dice game on the sidewalk.
| vagrantJin wrote:
| > If you code as an outsider
|
| More likely a jumpy or purse clutching individual who is
| oblivious to their surroundings will stand out to perps.
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