[HN Gopher] The Mayron Cole Piano Method is now free
___________________________________________________________________
The Mayron Cole Piano Method is now free
Author : jacquesm
Score : 339 points
Date : 2020-12-24 11:37 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.freepianomethod.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.freepianomethod.com)
| pimlottc wrote:
| Can anyone provide some context here? What distinguishes this
| from any other courses? Is this a well-known course?
| bentcorner wrote:
| From my perspective as someone who learned for about 8 or 9
| years, there's a lot of theory here. Personally I never learned
| much theory - as a child, playing piano wasn't something I
| particularly enjoyed (and it's only now as an adult that I do
| it occasionally for fun and appreciate the time I put in), but
| back then learning theory was even lower on the list.
|
| I do think theory is useful for understanding the mechanics of
| music, and may help accelerate learning any instrument.
|
| My teacher pulled a lot of material from the Royal Conservatory
| of Music (and I didn't learn theory from them). I haven't heard
| of this course until today.
| tonystride wrote:
| TBH it looks pretty good. Covers lots of theory, lots of
| repertoire graded for ability, and I'm super happy to see it
| covers rhythm. I think a few people knocked it for typography,
| I'm not that picky. Perhaps one of the biggest problems with
| any book is what is the % of people that finish any book much
| less 9 of them? Realistically this seems better suited as
| material for a teacher to incorporate into lessons.
|
| I think the one thing that apps and video lessons offer
| autodidacts that books don't is repetitive guided practice.
| Going through every scale & chord with you, guiding you though
| syncopation exercises, walking you through a harmonic analysis,
| etc...
| jancsika wrote:
| If you want to learn the acoustic instrument-- either upright or
| grand piano-- pay a teacher to show you how to learn.
|
| There are just so many parts of piano-playing that are
| counterintuitive. At the same time, if you learn them early and
| practice a little bit, it's not difficult to develop healthy
| habits that will make _everything_ you play sound more natural
| and beautiful.
|
| It's a bit frustrating because at least in the U.S., most people
| don't do this and just learn how to depress some keys in the
| right order.
|
| To me, hearing that result is equivalent to walking into
| someone's house and seeing pictures on the wall where the paint
| is smeared past the border onto the wall. It's novel the first
| time, but once you realize _everyone 's_ walls are like that you
| start to feel like you're being set up to eventually burn to
| death inside a wicker man.
| ebiester wrote:
| Does this transfer to online lessons? As of right now, there's
| a plague that we're trying not to transfer right now. (As far
| as I've heard, online lessons are not that great, relatively
| speaking.)
| danaur wrote:
| Paying a teacher is very expensive and a large time commitment,
| could you elaborate why the things a teacher can show you are
| not covered by online or self study
| jancsika wrote:
| Perhaps you just found an old dusty upright piano next to a
| dumpster, and you moved it into your apartment. Pehaps you
| pay a "very expensive" teacher $50 and make a "large time
| commitment" of 30 minutes for a single lesson. (Btw-- what's
| the going rate for even moving an upright these days? I'd bet
| it's more than $50)
|
| The teacher asks you where you'll be practicing, and on what
| type of instrument. Suppose it's the old upright. As a
| professional responsibility, that teacher is going to find
| out _exactly_ what shape that piano is in, if it 's in tune,
| if it has a broken soundboard, etc. Based on what the teacher
| finds out, they will give you valuable feedback on whether
| it's even _worth it_ for you to devote learning on that
| instrument (perhaps it 's woefully out of tune[1], which you
| wouldn't know if you're just a beginner). As well as whether
| it's worth paying a piano tuner to have a look at the
| instrument. Tuning costs more than $50, so on that detail
| alone you may have gotten your money's worth.
|
| Now imagine that instead of an old dusty upright, you have
| access to a grand piano practice room at a college with a
| well-funded music dept. You again pay your astronomical fee
| of $50 for the long duration of 30 full minutes. But the
| teacher spends the last 10 minutes of your lesson talking
| about dusty old broken uprights, and all the problems you'd
| run into _if_ you happened to be playing on that instead of
| accessing the college 's practice rooms.
|
| As a beginner, that last ten minutes would clearly be a waste
| of your time, right?
|
| Now extend that waste of time over, say, 1/3 of the total
| time you attempt to learn the piano.
|
| That is pretty much the problem you run into with
| online/self-study. Either the guide gives you so much
| material that's irrelevant to your context that it slows your
| pace of learning, or-- probably worse-- it leaves out crucial
| details that you need to know in order to progress
| efficiently.
|
| Finding a human mentor through a web of trust avoids those
| problems.
|
| In fact, it gets worse over time for the online/self-study
| because you're entirely dependent upon your _own_ opinion of
| your progress, which-- as a beginner-- is guaranteed to be
| flawed. This is an easy route to burn out. Perhaps you feel
| your progress stunted, whereas a professional could tell you
| that you 've simply underestimated the increase of difficulty
| of a particular skill. Not to mention setting reasonable
| expectations for progress in the first place, and a hundred
| other considerations that a mentor can immediately discover
| and provide feedback for.
|
| [1] More exponential explosion-- there are various ways in
| which a piano may be out of tune. A teacher can tell you
| whether that happens to be imperfect yet usable, or whether
| it renders it completely worthless as a practice instrument.
|
| Edit: clarification
| sandGorgon wrote:
| I just started learning piano in the COVID lockdown. The best and
| cheapest way to learn is use an app: Simply Piano(android+ios),
| Piano Marvel(ios), etc and connect it to an el cheapo midi
| keyboard.
|
| this allows you to spend the next 6 months learning without
| anyone getting disturbed..while the app gives you realtime
| feedback about which keys you are pressing.
|
| you wont miss the lack of a teacher...especially during the
| lockdown.
|
| dont buy an expensive piano. Dont buy books and methods. Learning
| this way is like playing a game...and arguably much better than
| Cyberpunk 2077 ;)
| peterkelly wrote:
| Apps can be useful but there is simply no replacement for
| having an experienced person observe your playing and giving
| you feedback. A good teacher can pick up on problems early and
| correct them, saving you hundreds of hours. They can also
| answer certain types of questions very easily that you might
| never be able to find via google.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| How can I decide between these opposing arguments that both
| sound reasonable?
|
| Well who is recommending that real teachers don't matter?
|
| "I just started learning piano..." That's who.
| acjohnson55 wrote:
| This is fine to get started (it's pretty close to how I got
| started) but I recommend getting a good teacher and instrument
| asap, if you're really enjoying yourself. They will help
| immensely in progression and good habits. After about 5 months
| with a teacher, I was playing a Chopin piece I wouldn't have
| dreamed of playing previously.
| rdiddly wrote:
| I love this little sub-thread. I don't know what it is about
| piano in particular that brings out the nail-biting. You don't
| seem to get that with guitar for example. What I like is that
| there's a lot of concern-for-others visible, which is
| admirable. The place where it strays into misplaced concern
| though (kind of as usual in life) is where in some cases
| there's a disproportionate intensity of concern that seems to
| indicate projection of each writer's own unconscious issues. I
| will now proceed to probably project my own, but just keep in
| mind... Why should someone care so much how someone else learns
| piano or _how much_ piano they learn? And why should the 2nd
| someone care what the 1st someone thinks in the first place?
|
| Mira, does it sound good, ?si o no? That's the only thing you
| need to ask yourself. If it sounds bad, try harder. (Or don't.
| Since it's for you and has no meaning except what you bring to
| it, and since it's near-worthless as a way to pay the bills,
| you're kind of free to do whatever. Maybe that freedom
| demotivates some people. That too is fine.)
|
| The argument for a structured approach or formal lessons tends
| to be that it prevents learning "bad habits." But what's wrong
| with finding that out for yourself, i.e. finding out that you
| learned a bad habit by progressing to the point that you notice
| the habit is bad? And then you either live with it (as many of
| them will actually be pretty inconsequential) or work to change
| it.
|
| I can even make a case that unlearning a bad habit is superior
| in some ways to never developing it. Because first of all, the
| way you reach "good piano player" status is always by passing
| through "shitty piano player" status, but secondly, an analogy:
| The way you mature to the point where you see that, let's say
| doing drugs (another bad habit for some people) isn't so good
| for you, is by _doing drugs_ and then quitting, not by "just
| saying no" from the getgo. What the fuck does a Nancy Reagan
| type know about drugs? Someone who quits drugs knows all about
| it. Ah but the additional knowledge takes (or if you think in
| terms of maximizing piano throughput like some industrial
| process, it _wastes_ ) additional time. If your parents have
| you convinced that your survival depends on getting early-
| admitted to Juilliard by age 14, yeah that is gonna hurt you.
| You can't spare the time to do it "wrong" or even to question
| whether doing it is bringing you any joy in the first place for
| that matter. But if you're willing to wait until age 18 for
| Juilliard, that gives you another 4 years to unlearn the bad
| habit. Plenty of time. 4 more years of playing piano, which is
| what you were trying to do in the first place.
| rubyn00bie wrote:
| Nice slur drop... for literally no reason.
|
| > to an el cheapo midi keyboard.
|
| El cheapo? You could just have said cheap and not come across
| as prick.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| LOL, never realized that was a slur -- I've heard it most of
| my life and took it to be humorous in a self-deprecating way:
| as in I'm so dumb this is how I think you can fake speaking
| Spanish.
|
| Like "cheapio midio" is my attempt at Italian.
| rubyn00bie wrote:
| Really? I honestly can't express how truly depressing and
| miserable your comment is. Self deprecating to use another
| language incorrectly to "humble" yourself? Seems pretty
| obviously racist. It's like saying "Ching Chong China
| virus" and calling it self-deprecating. Petty fucking
| gross.
|
| Wish I had the confidence of a white person to never think
| about my affect on others... or what language can do. Let
| alone to get paid like one since I get to put up with
| ignorant shit like this on the daily.
| dempseye wrote:
| This seems like the form of aggressive linguistic
| policing that the modern American so-called left engages
| in constantly.
|
| It strikes me as a wanton desire to get offended as a
| pretext to deliver a lecture about cultural sensitivity,
| thereby elevating the lecturer and diminishing the person
| receiving the lecture. It is immensely tedious and almost
| everybody is sick of it.
|
| The person you are responding to obviously did not speak
| with any ill intent. He or she would probably have been
| more amenable to your viewpoint if you hadn't assumed
| malice and gone on the attack.
|
| First you accuse him of racism then say something
| derogatory about white people. Do you not see the
| contradiction, or are you one of those who subscribe to
| the ideological position that anti-white racism is
| impossible by definition?
|
| And if you suggested to the average Spanish person that
| they are not "white" they'd laugh at you.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| A person accused of "unintentional racism" is, in my
| mind, not guilty. There has to be an intent to disparage
| behind the comment/remark for the speaker to be racist in
| act.
|
| Tell someone who said they felt "gypped" that they are
| disparaging Gypsies and they might have no clue that they
| were doing so. Are they nonetheless racist?
|
| I give them a pass. But I'm white so maybe I am not
| sensitive enough to these issues.
|
| > the modern American so-called left engages in
| constantly
|
| I associate with the "left", am "left", not aware of
| anyone in my circles engaging in that sort of language
| policing.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| I hear "Ching Chong China virus" as clearly meaning to be
| offensive, "el cheapo" not at all.
|
| Maybe I've been conditioned wrong.
|
| Also "humbling" is not the word I would have used to
| describe the speaker -- I don't think that is the same as
| "self-deprecating".
| sandGorgon wrote:
| I apologise for the phrase I used. I was not aware that
| it had a slur built into it.
|
| My linguistic humor is based off the internet - English
| is not my first language.
|
| Im Indian and most definitely not white. However will
| still apologise for it.
| Redoubts wrote:
| Don't apologize to this absurd person
| knuthsat wrote:
| Does it have like random chords for reading practice? I'd enjoy
| just getting a single chord or a chord sequence and going
| through it as quick as possible.
| gjulianm wrote:
| Sorry but I have to disagree a lot. An app is not the best way
| to learn piano. Piano is not just about pressing keys. Does the
| app correct your position (important if you don't want to get
| fatigue and cramps), your volume, fingerings, etc? Does it tell
| you how to practice the parts where you're struggling?
|
| > connect it to an el cheapo midi keyboard
|
| Please don't do that. I mean, if you just want to give it a try
| to piano and not spend anything, yeah, go ahead, but a small
| keyboard with non-weighted keys will limit you a lot, even
| early on. The sound is terrible, you won't be able to control
| the volume properly, and getting a better technique to play
| better and faster will be far more difficult. Not to mention
| that at some point you will try to use the extra keys and if
| they're are not there you can't do anything. If you want to
| seriously take up piano, just buy a decent keyboard at the
| start, you'll end up needing it anyways.
|
| Edit: Don't get me wrong, anything that gets more people into
| playing music is good. But I think it's also good if people
| know the advantages and limitations of the method they use to
| learn, and are able to choose the method that fits their
| expectations. If you just want to poke your nose into piano
| playing maybe an app is enough for you, but there are no
| shortcuts and no magic method.
| sandGorgon wrote:
| So I'm just giving you perspective after about 9 weeks of
| SimplyPiano.
|
| Im very far away from being able to control the nuances of
| volume. Im still at the point, where I'm learning to use my
| left and right hands independently and play without looking.
|
| And that's what SimplyPiano gets you to - it's a structured
| program+game that teaches you to read music and gain hand
| independence using an app.
|
| Im pretty self aware that I will need a teacher at some
| point. I have been a gamer and had formal teaching in music
| when I was kid.
|
| I find it hard to believe that a teacher would be able to
| correct me in real time, while simultaneously having me enjoy
| the process. Once I start playing half decently, the memory
| of music is motivation enough.
|
| Not right now.
| gjulianm wrote:
| Out of curiosity, how does the app make you enjoy the
| process? I took a quick look and it seems to have the same
| basic progression that most classes have, I assume the paid
| courses are different and better but I can't see them.
| BigCatStuff wrote:
| My 6 year old son played with SimplyPiano for several
| months this year, and I tried it out a bit as well. For
| me, SimplyPiano brings the excitement of being able to
| play popular music that you recognize and enjoy in a
| matter of weeks. The app has easy arrangements of
| everything from Adele to Beethoven that it takes you
| through as it 'teaches' you. There is also a gamification
| aspect that gives you more stars for hitting the right
| notes at the right time.
|
| When I had piano lessons as a child, playing classical
| music for years became boring and uninteresting to me. I
| believe apps with a wide range of music help keep
| interest levels up. The app seems like a great way to dip
| your toes into playing piano without committing to
| finding a teacher.
| sandGorgon wrote:
| So it doesn't "teach" you. Like I didn't even know it was
| teaching me to "read music".
|
| For me, it was just "hitting a few symbols". Suddenly in
| 2 weeks, I was reading music. It uses exactly the same
| tactics as any videogame lets you figure out game
| mechanics.
|
| Suddenly, you're playing another state of the game...and
| oh hey it's THAT song.
|
| This is hard to conceptualize for someone who can already
| play. But you have to understand that in October, I had
| no clue I would be reading music in December.
| nonamenoslogan wrote:
| This is the same drivel people who consider themselves
| "purists" in the watercolour scene spew whenever a new person
| expresses interest in painting. "You MUST spend $10 a tube
| minimum to REALLY be painting." "If you don't use 400lb cold
| press linen paper, you're really wasting paint." Blah.
|
| As someone who started out painting with a $10 set of Daler-
| Rowney on a $4 block of paper from Walmart, I can say
| wholeheartedly, one can experiment at the cheap end and then
| be pleasantly surprised at the top end while learning and
| enjoying themselves. $200 worth of colours you never use
| because you don't enjoy painting that much is a waste of
| money. $20 worth of paint you fill every notebook and
| sketchpad up with doodles is worth every penny. As you
| progress (and decide if the hobby is even worth doing), you
| pick up some of those $10 a tube paints and realize the
| purists weren't wrong, they DO paint better, but they won't
| make you a better painter.
|
| Personally I have a $99 AKAI MPC-Mini with only one octave
| worth of keys and have only dabbled a bit with it connected
| to my PC, but its infinitely better than Smule on the iPad
| and eventually with an app or through lessons on Youtube, one
| could absolutely learn the skills needed to play a
| composition an actual piano--all as the GP said, from the
| comfort of your own home, at your own pace.
| jacquesm wrote:
| > Sorry but I have to disagree a lot.
|
| And I have to disagree a lot with you. I had a piano teacher
| when I was young and that person put me off piano for the
| next 45 years or so. A _good_ teacher will help you, a not so
| good teacher may well cause you to lose interest.
|
| Right now I'm practicing on my own, when I want, without a
| set schedule and without the goal of getting good enough to
| satisfy my - nonexistent - teacher.
|
| Likely a good teacher would help. But good teachers cost
| money, have their own schedules to keep and their goals may
| not overlap with mine. So this time around I'm taking it as
| slow or as fast as I want, when I want, learning pieces that
| are probably way above my level but that keep me motivated
| because I like to play them.
|
| If at some point I feel that I hit a plateau then I might go
| for a teacher for a while with the express goal of getting
| unstuck.
|
| Finally, not everybody learns in the same way and not
| everybody has your budget. I love learning by doing, not by
| being told how to do it and there is as sense of pride in
| learning a skill by yourself instead of having it handed
| down, it also allows you to develop your own style rather
| than to become a carbon copy of what your teacher considers
| to be 'proper'. There is room for all of this and yours as
| well but I don't like the way you are all over this thread
| proclaiming the 'one true way', there are as many ways as
| there are people and what works for one person could easily
| be someone else's nightmare. It would be nice if you at least
| acknowledged that you have not taken into account the goal of
| whoever you have in mind as your hypothetical piano student
| and that not everybody will fit that image.
|
| We agree that there are not shortcuts and that there is no
| magic method, but I think everybody that is somewhat serious
| about any instrument would agree on that.
| gjulianm wrote:
| Bad teachers are an issue, of course. But bad apps can be
| an issue too. No matter the method there's always the risk
| of not implementing it correctly.
|
| > their goals may not overlap with mine.
|
| That's a matter of talking with the teacher and setting
| down the goals.
|
| > Finally, not everybody learns in the same way and not
| everybody has your budget.
|
| My point is not "I did classes and I'm good now", is "I
| didn't do enough classes and now I see how that wasn't the
| best".
|
| > I don't like the way you are all over this thread
| proclaiming the 'one true way'
|
| If that's the way I'm coming across I'm sorry. My point is
| that there's more to music learning that people think
| (specially in HN, where I've seen really bad takes in some
| posts), and that they should be mindful that an app will
| not be a magic method. I've seen friends that had very high
| expectations and then got discouraged quickly. I prefer
| that people know what's ahead, and align the method to use
| with the expectations they have.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I think most people are more than mature enough to make
| their own decisions about what works for them and what
| doesn't. Good teachers are worth their weight in gold,
| but also, they cost money and if you are not doing this
| with a set goal of achieving a certain level but just
| enjoying yourself then that can be all the motivation
| that you need to keep going.
|
| I'd advocate for the occasional review by a teacher to
| see whether you are picking up any bad habits but to most
| importantly focus on _having fun_ so that you stay
| motivated. Nothing will kill interest in an instrument in
| the early stages of learning as much as drilling boring
| stuff, even if that has long term advantages, after all
| if there is no long term because of that then what 's the
| point?
| gjulianm wrote:
| Of course, and to make decisions you need information,
| that's what I'm trying to do.
|
| Also, you can have a teacher where the focus is to have
| fun with it and not drilling boring stuff. That's
| precisely the conversation I had with my current clarinet
| teacher. We still do boring stuff but he also brings me
| jazz songs and classical duets to play according to my
| level. It's a matter of establishing your goals with the
| teacher the same way you put them with yourself.
| jacquesm wrote:
| So, the takeaways for me are:
|
| - Teachers can not give you motivation but they can sure
| kill it.
|
| - An app that keeps people motivated is better than
| nothing at all.
|
| - Horses for courses (not everybody is the same, and
| equally affluent, what works for you may not work for
| someone else) and if people are on a budget and they find
| a way that can make them enjoy what they are doing
| without breaking the bank on teachers and piano tuners
| then that's a benefit.
|
| - With what is available online + a $400 digital piano
| you can get surprisingly far if you are self motivated,
| and occasionally spending an hour or two with a teacher
| (or simply a better pianist) will stretch your abilities
| further.
|
| - if you feel that you are not comfortable or maybe even
| are injuring yourself then stop whatever you are doing
| and ask an expert.
|
| - If you have a goal and/or want to be able to perform
| and value your time over your cash then a good teacher is
| the way to go but beware, not all teachers are good.
|
| - if you can afford it, want it and you can find a good
| teacher definitely go for that.
|
| - An acoustic piano is not a 'must' to be able to learn
| and practice, in fact, a digital has some advantages (the
| ability to practice with headphones). Silent pianos exist
| but are usually quite pricey.
|
| Finally, I'd like to plug http://forum.pianoworld.com/
| which is an excellent resource for people interested in
| playing and teaching piano.
| gjulianm wrote:
| Yeah, I fully agree with that. Only thing is that I do
| think that a teacher can give you motivation by pointing
| you towards a next step that is both achievable and
| interesting for you.
| sandGorgon wrote:
| I was exactly in the same situation. And I would say ..if
| it wasn't for COVID, I wouldn't have landed on this.
|
| learning using an app is low pressure, very pleasant, very
| game-y. Im at the point, where the game has gotten me
| interested enough that I wandered on the internet towards
| "Taubman method for eliminating RSI", etc.
|
| I strongly recommend it for kids even. Im pretty sure this
| will get me flamed by people who play piano already, but
| I'm willing to bet money that for non-musical parents, they
| would be pleasantly surprised that their kids are doing
| something other than playing videogames...and kinda
| learning something awesome while stuck at home.
| sandGorgon wrote:
| Would you able to mention a bit about your self
| learning/practice approach ?
|
| Im wondering about the next steps from Simply Piano in a
| couple of months.
|
| I have been told Czerny. But I'm not sure if that's the
| path that takes me to eventually playing Chopin.
|
| Would love to know if you figured out a "hacker way".
| corytheboyd wrote:
| Going to shamelessly use this thread to pulse check something
| I am working on.
|
| I too have been learning piano over the last five months or
| so, but I found a private teacher through a local music
| school. Very glad I made that decision, we work well together
| and it's amazing having someone for 1hr a week to keep you on
| track, motivated, correcting you in real time.
|
| Apps cannot do that, but there IS room for technology to
| assist remote learning. Neither of us has an amazing camera
| setup that can capture a full 88 key piano, which is tricky
| for performances that span many octaves... so you know pretty
| much any song :P We both have MIDI out though, which got me
| to thinking you could pretty easily stream that MIDI data
| through a p2p connection to render keys on a remote end in
| near real time.
|
| I have been working on a prototype on and off for a few
| months on a prototype and testing it with my teacher. It's
| been useful for picking up the slack of not having complex
| camera rigging, and the cost of entry is buying a midi-to-usb
| cable.
|
| Anyway I've been ramping up to get it ready for letting other
| people try it out and wanted to hop into this very relevant
| thread and drop the pitch to see if there is interest in the
| idea!
| jacquesm wrote:
| If you get real-time reliable detection of notes and chords
| working in the browser then please let me now. Meanwhile,
| I'll plug https://pianojacq.com/ which I wrote to help
| practice (digital or silent) piano.
| corytheboyd wrote:
| > If you get real-time reliable detection of notes and
| chords working in the browser then please let me know
|
| Will do! That is of course the focal point of any code I
| write for this, and it's very tricky. To perhaps give you
| a little more confidence that I might figure this out, I
| know it's not as simple as forwarding midi data through
| WebRTC and playing it on receipt on the other end ;)
|
| This gist of how I do it now is conceding to the fact
| that network latency exists and having a sort of buffer
| that allows midi note data to arrive out of order but be
| played back at the original timings (just delayed)
| jacquesm wrote:
| I have one good friend in Berlin who is working on the
| same problem, would you like an intro?
|
| If so send me an email please, jacques@modularcompany.com
| corytheboyd wrote:
| Sent an email, very curious!
| sandGorgon wrote:
| I would like to get in one that. I have gotten to the
| point in my lonely piano journey that I understand that
| one must start practicing Hanon and Czerny. Yet there's
| no guided app for that.
| corytheboyd wrote:
| I'm no teacher so I can't tell you confidently what's
| write or wrong. I definitely don't practice those,
| they're honestly kinda boring to me. My musical goal is
| more about getting a decent understanding of practical
| playing and theory through a book that does a bit of both
| (the older beginner is what it's called) as well as
| finding our own songs to work through and use to learn
| about theory. The teacher who swears by tedious exercise
| like Hanon would probably disagree, but I really like it,
| and I feel like it's still very productive!
| Dnguyen wrote:
| I was working on a music system for my brother, who is a
| music teacher, to allow for better music teaching than
| Zoom. I just don't have the bandwidth. But I do have some
| code for video interface with Jitsi and MIDI. I'd be more
| than happy to pass along with I got and some idea on how to
| get the music to synch.
| tonystride wrote:
| Isn't this what google's shared piano does? Its been a god
| send to me as a virtual teacher throughout this whole
| pandemic.
| simias wrote:
| I think it's like using an app for language learning. If you
| think 10 minutes of Duolingo every day is going to make you
| fluent in Chinese you're deluding yourself, but it doesn't
| mean that it can't be a good entry point and a good way to
| build discipline and gauge your progress.
|
| I've been learning the saxophone for a few months (ask my
| neighbours) and have used a bunch of different methods. I
| find that even bad practice is good practice, so to speak.
| It's just important to keep a feedback loop: listen to
| yourself, compare yourself to good players and look for the
| differences. And don't _just_ use an app, vary your training
| using multiple sources and methods to find what works best
| for you, as well and filling the gaps.
|
| For the saxophone I found that a good way to spot bad habits
| force yourself to "do things right" is to force yourself to
| play in a different key every day. This forces you to
| deconstruct what you're playing, as well as making sure that
| you can play on the entire range of your instrument.
|
| Sure, it's better to start with good personalized private
| courses with a good teacher and excellent hardware but many
| people wouldn't even start if that was the barrier of entry.
| I know that I definitely wouldn't have.
|
| Having to unlearn bad habits a few years down the line is
| annoying, but it's not the end of the world.
| powersnail wrote:
| > that even bad practice is good practice
|
| May I try to persuade you otherwise?
|
| Bad habits are often linked to repetitive injuries in the
| long run. This is something that you don't really notice
| several months in, but will bite you when you start to play
| a lot.
|
| If you really want to self-teach, I would suggest at least
| take some classes in the beginning to properly form your
| posture.
| XCSme wrote:
| I have used SimplyPiano for about 1 year now and I'm really
| happy with it. I did learn of lot of piano theory and I can
| easily read sheet music and learn/play simple songs (left
| hand chords + right hand melody) in a few minutes.
|
| > Does the app correct your position (important if you don't
| want to get fatigue and cramps), your volume, fingerings,
| etc?
|
| Yes, the app does constantly reminding you to have the
| correct position, shows fingering but does indeed not test
| for volume. It's obviously not as good as having a teacher
| constantly watching you.
|
| I have also recently started some lessons with a piano
| teacher for more in-depth music theory and checking my
| current progress, she didn't have too much stuff to correct,
| so the app wasn't that bad and the stuff that I learnt was
| actually correct and usable. One thing that the teacher was a
| lot better at than the app was explaining how more complex
| musical concepts are linked together and how focusing more on
| the basics is more important that learning specific
| things/progressions.
|
| > connect it to an el cheapo midi keyboard
|
| I use the Yamaha NP 12 (it costs around $200), it sounds
| amazing but it does have only 61 keys and it's semi-weighted.
| I still think it's good enough for learning how to play.
|
| One thing that you might be missing is the fact that most of
| the people wanting to learn the piano don't plan on becoming
| a professional, they just want to be able to learn and play a
| few songs or improvise a bit. In order to do this usually
| "good enough" is good enough, you don't need the best
| equipment or the perfect technique. It's also important, as
| you mentioned, to know what to expect and what you are
| missing out on by using the learning methods you do.
| gjulianm wrote:
| > Yes, the app does constantly reminding you to have the
| correct position,
|
| That's not what I meant by position, I meant hand position,
| finger curving, etc. If you did it well at the start that's
| nice, some people don't (in fact there's a guy in this same
| thread saying that he has finger cramps when playing).
|
| > so the app wasn't that bad and the stuff that I learnt
| was actually correct and usable.
|
| That's great! I'm not saying it's useless, only that has
| limitations, the same thing that you noticed when you
| started with a teacher.
|
| > I still think it's good enough for learning how to play.
|
| As long as it's weighted it's decent, and 61 keys for
| starters is not too bad either. When the parent said
| 'cheapo midi keyboard' I was thinking of one of these small
| cheap keyboards that almost looks like a toy.
|
| > One thing that you might be missing is the fact that most
| of the people wanting to learn the piano don't plan on
| becoming a professional, they just want to be able to learn
| and play a few songs or improvise a bit. In order to do
| this usually "good enough" is good enough
|
| I know that. I'm talking precisely to that people, because
| I'm one of those people. I'm doing that with the clarinet
| right now in fact. If you really want to play a few songs
| by yourself and improvise a bit, you're taking it seriously
| enough to the point I do think it's worth it to go to a
| teacher.
| publicola1990 wrote:
| Yes but in comparison with the same time spent on a game like
| 2077, even app lets people make progress.
| Scarbutt wrote:
| And create bad piano habits that are harder to correct
| later, but sure, depends on your goals.
| moron4hire wrote:
| Uuuugh, classicists are so boring. Not everything has to be
| classical piano. Thelonius Monk didn't have anyone correcting
| his finger position.
| gjulianm wrote:
| I'm not a classicist in fact. If you're Thelonius Monk go
| ahead and play, but in this same thread we have some people
| complaining of finger fatigue and cramps. That's something
| that a teacher can correct easily.
| moron4hire wrote:
| No, because the piano is not an ergonomic instrument. No
| matter what, you're going to experience finger fatigue
| and cramps. And that's even assuming you have a hand size
| that fits _the one, standardized_ keyboard size.
| jacquesm wrote:
| This guy was in pretty much constant pain from the
| limitations of his body but it never stopped him from
| playing.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PyYcnXQZJY&list=RDzWmz5-No
| F...
|
| Of course, better not to form bad habits, but your body has
| some pretty good signals to tell you that you are doing
| something wrong.
| jsilence wrote:
| Mostly agreed, but the CP2077 Soundtrack is hard to beat.
| mrandish wrote:
| > An app is not the best way to learn piano.
|
| To many beginners starting out, the term "learn piano" can be
| used in a generic way and could mean anything from becoming a
| classical concert pianist, a Rick Wakeman-esque rock
| keyboardist, a Daft Punk-like synthesist, a digital composer
| creating symphonic cinema scores out of virtual software
| plug-in orchestras - or they may want to target the
| flexibility to "do it all." I'm a largely self-taught,
| hobbyist digital producer who loves my 61-key MIDI-only,
| synth action Fatar key beds but we started our elementary-
| aged kid with a Julliard-trained classical piano teacher and
| bought a $600 88-key, fully weighted Casio MIDI keyboard for
| home practice. The Casio sound engine doesn't sound as good
| as the virtual Bosendorfer in my laptop but it's more than
| good enough and our kid has benefited greatly from having
| traditional instruction (for form, posture, bad-habit
| prevention, etc) but also enjoys practicing teacher-approved
| pieces with a tablet-based, gamified MIDI app that reports
| practice frequency, accuracy, speed, timing variance, etc
| stats back to the teacher to inform progress as well as areas
| for improvement.
|
| Your advice would be generally applicable to a beginner with
| goals similar to my kid but off target for a beginner with
| goals like mine.
|
| >> connect it to an el cheapo midi keyboard
|
| I agree that just saying "cheap midi keyboard" needs a
| warning that there are some really poor quality keybeds on
| the lower-end. The issue is not just the "weighting" of the
| keys not matching a mechanical piano but also wobble side to
| side, inconsistent trigger depth, no velocity sensitivity.
| These issues can substantially impact basic playability and
| expressiveness to the extent that much of the practice may
| not fully translate to decent (ie more "standard") key beds.
|
| > non-weighted keys will limit you a lot
|
| This depends on whether the learner wants to be able to play
| a traditional mechanical piano which is what "weighted" key
| beds emulate. Weighted key beds respond very differently
| compared to what's called "synth action" key beds. Real piano
| keys require substantially more finger pressure to actuate,
| go down slower, and come back up slower. The trigger curve is
| also different than synth action. Personally, I actually
| _prefer_ a high-quality synth action key bed. I have over a
| dozen different high-quality synth action key beds on various
| MIDI-only keyboards as well as synthesizers I 've acquired
| over two decades of playing. While I'm very particular about
| the feel of the key beds I use, my goal has never been to be
| a "piano player" but rather a "keyboardist". I feel this is
| more a matter of personal preference and goals than objective
| right or wrong. My advice to beginners is to be aware of the
| differences and make an informed choice by first visiting a
| music store like Guitar Center and trying out several key
| beds of different types and quality levels. Regardless of
| their goals I generally advise beginners to stay away from
| any MIDI-only controller keyboards which are less than $200
| new MSRP or any MIDI+sound source keyboards which are less
| than $400 new MSRP as those likely have meaningful
| compromises in basic quality or features to reach that price
| point. If someone's not experienced, it's also generally a
| good idea to lean toward better-known brands like Yamaha,
| Korg, Roland, etc and read pro reviewer's assessments.
|
| > The sound is terrible
|
| Many people these days don't have the space or funds for a
| real piano (and even a small one can be heavier than a
| fridge). If it's not a real piano, then you're triggering a
| virtual sound source. The quality of any virtual sound source
| is a more a matter of DSP processing power, sample memory,
| algorithm quality, etc. There are some _very_ good virtual
| piano sound engines in relatively inexpensive MIDI keyboards
| (especially used via Craigslist) as well as in laptop, tablet
| and even phone-based MIDI software apps. I have a virtually
| modeled Bosendorfer Grand Piano software plug-in on my Dell
| XPS 2-in-1 laptop that 's pretty indistinguishable from a
| real one.
| sandGorgon wrote:
| > _tablet-based, gamified MIDI app that reports practice
| frequency, accuracy, speed, timing variance, etc stats back
| to the teacher_
|
| Which app is this ?
|
| Also, curious to know..do you think virtual pianos are good
| enough for smartphones (iOS/android) or do you still need
| laptops?
| mrandish wrote:
| I forgot to add above...
|
| My general advice about learning via piano apps is that
| it can be reasonably effective for practicing some
| things, for some types of learners but apps are not
| (IMHO) sufficient to teach all things keyboard to all
| types of learners.
|
| I think the ideal approach for many people and scenarios
| would combine an experienced instructor with solo
| practice, some app-assisted practice and some video-
| assisted/written study. How much of each and the
| sequencing will depend largely on the learner and their
| objectives.
|
| As is usually the case, "conscious practice" tends to be
| far better than "rote (mindless) practice". When our kid
| got into the third year of piano, solo practice sessions
| became more of a struggle, frequently slipping into
| mindless repetition that was largely ineffective. That's
| when we introduced some app-assisted practice sessions.
| The app approach was helpful because it provided
| consistent, granular, objective feedback on missed notes,
| timing, etc. Obviously no app can replicate all the
| dimensions of an experienced human coach but in the right
| context app-assisted practice can be a useful component
| of a blended learning strategy.
| mrandish wrote:
| > Which app is this ?
|
| The teacher we picked for our kid is classically trained
| and pretty hardcore (both of her own kids are now
| college-aged very serious concert pianists). She has a
| masters in music as well as a masters in childhood
| education. She doesn't generally _like_ the apps but she
| knows that they can be effective with some younger
| students to keep them engaged in home practice. The app
| she uses is called Piano Maestro, which is a more well-
| known brand. However, there are a quite a few well-
| regarded apps, and, as you 'd expect, a zillion crappy
| apps. I suspect our chosen instructor's preference is
| more about the large library of more traditional pieces
| which Piano Maestro has licensed as well as the PM's
| business model which has a rev share with teachers.
|
| As a technologist, IMHO MIDI keyboard playing instruction
| apps aren't a fundamentally "hard problem". I think the
| quality has a lot to do with UX, instructional approach
| and the appeal of the available library of practice songs
| to the learner. I'd suggest creating a "short list" of
| titles by reading some objective user and pro reviews on
| musically focused sites instead of random app store
| ratings. Then I'd watch YT video reviews and/or try
| demos/trials. The key is finding an app which seems to
| fit your personal style and needs for UX, content
| library, instructional gradient, chunking, etc. For
| example, Angry-Birds-esque gamification really helps my
| kid stay focused during the repetition necessary to
| clean-up timing errors while learning a challenging
| recital piece but that "slot machine" ding-ding-ding
| approach would drive me nuts. The kid doesn't want to
| watch instructional video clips but I find the tips
| useful.
|
| > do you think virtual pianos are good enough for
| smartphones (iOS/android) or do you still need laptops?
|
| "Good enough" is always tricky when it comes to things
| that are application dependent as well as being
| subjective preference. Frankly, I have very little
| experience with phone-based music apps because I'm a
| pretty serious hobbyist and regardless of the sound-
| quality, the screen size of phones is a non-starter. In
| general, I've heard that support for advanced audio
| timing features on Android lags iOS though it's
| apparently slowly improving. GarageBand being one of
| Steve Job's "hero" demo apps was probably an early
| forcing function. Obviously, recent phone CPUs from
| Qualcomm and Apple have enough DSP horsepower to do
| serious things. The issue is the depth of OS support for
| more "pro" use cases like routing MIDI and virtual audio
| channel routing between multiple apps in real-time.
|
| A couple years back I did spend a couple hundred dollars
| on serious apps for an iPad Pro (12.9 inch) like Cubasis,
| some Korg virtual instruments >$20 each, etc. The various
| piano sounds certainly seemed high-quality enough,
| performant enough and expressive enough for the purposes
| of learning to play keyboards. A lot of the instruments
| included in GarageBand are pretty impressive for just
| playing. Where apps lag desktop software and pro plug-in
| libraries is in areas like simultaneous multi-tracking
| and depth of subtle control of individual instrument
| voicing.
|
| I eventually abandoned doing music on the iPad Pro
| because the "good" apps aren't exactly cheap, though they
| do go on crazy (>60% off) sales from time to time. They
| also tend not to be as fully controllable at the detail-
| level as desktop apps/plug-ins. There certainly are
| "iPad-only" music producers publishing impressive pro-
| level work but I can have compositions with hundreds of
| active tracks, dozens of DSP-sucking virtual instruments
| and multiple sample libraries weighed in gigabytes of
| size. But then again, my DAW (Digital Audio Workstation)
| software is Cubase Pro ($600) and I use several >$500
| virtual instruments because I'm pretty into this.
| However, in recent years I've seen demos of _very_
| impressive capabilities now on offer on iOS and desktop
| at sub-$100 per app /instrument prices. But I'm hooked on
| my desktop workstation with multiple widescreen monitors
| and multiple different types of MIDI controllers (with
| pedals outboard MIDI faders/knobs, etc). So it all
| depends on where you ultimately want to go.
|
| Bottom line, there's never been a better time to get into
| personal music-making. You can do far more with much less
| money and innate skill than ever before while the power
| and capabilities on offer are truly mind-blowing as well
| as dirt cheap (and sometimes even free).
| mike_h wrote:
| This advice is debatable anymore. If your goal is to really
| go deep on acoustic, traditional piano then sure. But if you
| just want to make music in a modern way (on the computer), or
| even just want to try it out for a year or two before
| deciding this is a lifetime hobby to invest thousands of
| dollars and hours into, then cheap midi keyboard plus app is
| more than fine. Especially if the app makes it fun for you.
| verroq wrote:
| The problem is that if you decide to continue you've
| already spent a year learning bad habits that could have
| been easily corrected if you had a teacher with you.
| komali2 wrote:
| The alternative is "never starting because of high
| barrier to entry," not "starting with better habits."
| verroq wrote:
| Let's not kid ourselves, the chances of any normal person
| learning by themselves without a teacher to any kind of
| mastery is zero. Most won't have to the drive to continue
| even after two weeks. "Starting" doesn't mean anything,
| anyone can "start". It's trivial to start.
| komali2 wrote:
| Really? I find myself surrounded by self taught
| programmers, musicians, and visual artists all the time.
|
| Yes. Nobody I know will play in the London philharmonic.
| But we figured out enough to play a cover band in
| highschool, and I'm figuring out enough to learn passable
| music production. On that note, from what I've learned
| from their interviews, many of the biggest producers have
| never taken a music lesson.
|
| This isn't me arguing _against_ lessons writ large,
| simply pushing back on the notion that they, and other
| barriers to entry, are not barriers at all. There are
| other paths.
| ekonine wrote:
| Learning music theory is different from correctly playing
| an instrument. If your goal is to produce then your
| method is probably good for dipping your toes in the
| water if you have literally no music experience
| whatsoever. Most digital production doesn't require you
| to play complicated passages for a long period of time,
| so you'd succeed in realizing your goals on that front.
|
| But if your goal is to perform; sure, you'll be able to
| play simple compositions, but anything complex will pose
| a challenge without a teacher (or even good material that
| makes you aware of what to look out for). I think that's
| what your critics are trying to point out.
|
| The real problem here is you're equating learning music
| theory with 'learning the piano'.
| verroq wrote:
| The point is the lessons as a standardised tool work
| quite well in producing results.
|
| The variation in results is much higher if you go off the
| well beaten path.
|
| Secondly, if you think learning piano is comparable to
| programming or art then you are completely mistaken.
|
| Edit- added here since HN doesn't let you comment anymore
| if you get downvoted too much.
|
| With programming, the feedback is immediate and accurate.
| You know if your code does compile. You know if your
| logic is bugged or if your algorithm is too inefficient.
| If the code you write doesn't work, somebody can give you
| their code to bring you up to speed. This allows you to
| immediately address your issues.
|
| With piano, (at least in the beginning) you are not
| qualified to judge if your hand position is right, if
| your posture won't give your RSI in the long run, if you
| are even playing the right notes, if your rhythm is off,
| if you are reading the sheet music wrong, if your pedal
| is timing subtly off or if your legato is correct. You
| can practice for hours on playing the wrong thing. A
| teacher can help you get this stuff to get fixed.
| Secondly, unless you started ear training as a child you
| won't ever be able to develop absolute pitch. Your
| ability to discern pitch and listen to the very music you
| are playing is already at a disadvantage. You're
| basically blind and deaf and you have no idea what
| progress should look like apart from superficial
| judgments.
| bumby wrote:
| As both a crummy programmer and crummy musician, I'd like
| to hear more about your perspective on how they differ.
| jdironman wrote:
| Who taught Bach?
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| His father Johann Ambrosius Bach; his older brother
| Johann Christoph Bach; his uncle Johann Christoph Bach
| (yes, same name); Georg Bohm is likely but there's no
| direct evidence; he studied at the Michaelisschule for
| several years; and was a court musician of Johann Ernst
| where he likely received further training.
| [deleted]
| sandGorgon wrote:
| Im not flaming you, but I would genuinely recommend you
| check out videos of people learning to play using
| Flowkey, SimplyPiano, etc. People get to a decent state.
|
| And take everything that has been written (barrier to
| entry, etc) and add COVID isolation into the mix. We are
| still in this mess for another 9 months about.
|
| Im not arguing about teacher vs app in the most generic
| sense...but one can spend 30 mins a day with an app on
| wireless earphones and get to a pretty decent State for
| playing is worth it.
| ebiester wrote:
| I upvoted you even though I disagree, for a few reasons.
|
| First, a lesson where I get Covid is a _really_ expensive
| lesson. A lesson where I give Covid to a teacher is a
| really expensive lesson for them, and I don 't want to be
| responsible for potentially killing someone for lessons.
|
| Second, there is a wide range in the quality of teachers
| today. While it is true that feedback will accelerate
| learning, I've been able to learn a fair amount from
| teachers on the web, taking their knowledge and adapting
| it as I need.
|
| Am I progressing as fast as I would if I had a teacher?
| Of course not. Will I get a teacher eventually, after
| Covid? I'd like to. But it's a luxury at this point and
| the ability to learn is better than procrastination.
| dehrmann wrote:
| Too bad no one teaches Piano over Zoom /s
| gjulianm wrote:
| > even just want to try it out for a year or two
|
| If you're already thinking about trying it for a year or
| two, you're serious enough that a teacher will be far more
| helpful than an app, and a cheap, small, non-weighted midi
| keyboard will limit you a lot.
|
| > But if you just want to make music in a modern way (on
| the computer)
|
| Acoustic or digital, music is more than a series of button
| presses. All the things I mentioned apply even if the only
| thing you want to do is play 4-chord pop songs.
| nine_k wrote:
| Are there any small keyboards that are good for playing?
| I'm afraid that taking out a 74-key device will be enough
| of a nuisance every time that it would discourage me from
| keeping on learning. How about a 40-key keyboard that's
| fine for fingers?
| Bekwnn wrote:
| Pianos consume some amount of space. That's just a matter
| of fact with the instrument. A good digital piano in the
| $600-800 range with proper weighted keys will probably
| use the same amount of space as a dresser along some
| wall.
|
| If you seriously want to learn and play piano, even as a
| hobby, that is the entry level.
|
| I also disagree with using any of the popular apps as
| anything more than supplemental tools, but there are some
| very good adult lesson books can definitely form the
| backbone of your learning. As long as you're aware that
| posture and technique is a struggle for self-taught
| pianists, you can look for videos and make some conscious
| effort to improve at it.
|
| Buying an $80 smaller midi keyboard is a good way to get
| a cursory feel for things without spending the full
| amount.
| dsr_ wrote:
| There's a place for BASIC and LOGO turtles and Python,
| and also for $35 32-key button-smashers.
|
| And then it turns out that Python is actually quite a
| useful language, and that the keyboard-shaped thing is
| better than nothing.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| $100 vs $1000+ is a big deal.
| cesaref wrote:
| If you've got the space, you'll find that you can get a
| real upright for free in most cities in the world. Sure,
| it won't be the best instrument ever, but if you ask
| around you'll find someone chucking one out.
| dehrmann wrote:
| After a few tunings, you might wish you bought the
| keyboard.
| jdeibele wrote:
| Yes. We were told that we should move our piano away from
| the outside wall next to a window because the temperature
| and moisture fluctuations were causing it to go out of
| tune.
|
| We're in an old house and there isn't a piano-sized space
| in our living room that doesn't have a window, door, or
| HVAC intake/vent.
| kranner wrote:
| Digital pianos around the $500 mark are pretty good these
| days.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Seconded, Yamaha, Kawai and Roland all make gear in that
| price range that is nothing short of incredible in terms
| of quality and sound. Besides the fact that they don't
| need tuning like an acoustic would and which tends to add
| up over time.
| kranner wrote:
| Just putting in a vote for my Casio Privia PX-S1000.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Ah yes, they are also pretty good, I tried one at a music
| store here in nl but forgot about it. Definitely worth a
| mention.
| ohgodplsno wrote:
| Very few people can afford to blow $500 on something they
| don't know if they'll commit on or not.
|
| Get secondhand for $100-150.
| nkingsy wrote:
| Casio makes some tremendous keyboards these days. The
| Privia line is across the board excellent and can be
| found used for $250 or less.
|
| Adding my vote for never ever touching an "el cheapo"
| instrument. A junk keyboard and guitar made me think I
| disliked those instruments as a younger person, and it
| makes me sad when I see kids struggling with instruments
| that I can't make sound good with years of experience.
| mike_h wrote:
| Even the cheapest midi keyboards are velocity-sensitive.
| Weighting is nice, but the choice isn't between button-
| presses and expression.
| c03 wrote:
| I must agree. op comment is the worst advice i have seen on
| HN on any subject, it reads like an impatient child wishing
| to avoid to study just to be able to perform.
|
| But then again, it comes down to what you want to achieve. If
| you just want to mind numbingly press buttons, knock yourself
| out.
| komali2 wrote:
| I liked the advice because I always wanted to learn piano
| but every time I approached stage 1, people were saying
| similar things. "Oh, just to get STARTED, you're going to
| need an 88 key weighted keyboard, that'll cost you 600$ and
| take up an entire wall of your studio. Ok now spend 100$ on
| books, and now you have everything you need to spend 200$ a
| month and an hour every week on a teacher. And you better
| practice five hours a week, or don't even bother, don't you
| dare soil our beautiful instrument!"
|
| It's gatekeeping. I don't want to be excellent piano, or
| even all that good. I want to be able to occasionally play
| a song not very well, and play some chords in a way that
| pleases me. Mostly, I want to plug chords on a whim into my
| DAW, where I have control to a level I, as a non savant,
| will never be able to play to.
|
| The OP advice was perfect for someone like me who has
| learned piano just fine that way.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Calling it gatekeeping is a stretch. It is more likely
| simply how _they_ learned.
| powersnail wrote:
| How is it gatekeeping? Nobody is actually capable of
| stopping you from doing what you want to do. They simply
| don't agree with you.
|
| Many teachers can teach once a month. Many music are free
| on IMSLP, musescore, etc. There are cheaper ways to get
| started than what you have been apparently told.
|
| My main objection to using an app are 1) it doesn't
| correct your posture which might lead to injuries in the
| long run (though not a concern if you don't play
| frequently) 2) it usually takes a _lot_ longer to reach
| the level you have in mind. Learning from a teacher
| actually saves time.
|
| But, if you just want an interface to DAW, I think an app
| is fine, since there is no need for phrasing, or timing,
| etc. You'll probably be fine even without the app.
| gjulianm wrote:
| If that's what you want to do, that's nice and go ahead,
| maybe the app is the cheapest way to get to that point.
| My point is that people who use them should be aware of
| their limitations, and compare that with what they want
| to achieve.
|
| PS: the weighted keyboard thing is actually important.
| You can get cheap weighted keyboards for less than 200$,
| maybe even less in second-hand market. A non-weighted
| keyboard will limit your playing a lot, even early on.
| lake_vincent wrote:
| Gatekeeping????? That's the most absurd use of that word
| I've ever seen. It's a hobby. Hobbies cost money. People
| don't have the god-given right to play piano, just like
| they don't have the god-given right to fly a plane.
| Pianos cost money. Pianists need money to make a living.
| It's not gatekeeping, it's just the plain economics of a
| highly complex musical instrument.
| publicola1990 wrote:
| Very much agree to the view, in fact I think the
| gatekeeping has become stronger in recent years, in the
| past, playing piano was considered a more utilitarian
| skill, since it was more of a means to hear music in ones
| own house, before recorded music became popular. It was
| essentially a music reproduction device, like a record
| player/tape recorder.
| vict00ms wrote:
| I taught myself how to flatpick on guitar. Three years
| later, I found out that I held the plectrum incorrectly.
| Though I've learned the proper way (and will switch to it
| in order to tremolo a la Dick Dale), twenty-five years
| later I still can't shake it.
| clawlor wrote:
| I started playing around the same time as you, and also
| hold the pick "incorrectly", using both the index +
| middle finger. It's only been in the last year or so that
| I've made any sort of effort to use just the index
| finger. It feels unstable, but faster in a way, and also
| easier to hybrid pick thanks to the middle finger being
| free.
| komali2 wrote:
| I understand why you're frustrated to hear someone I suppose
| cheapen something you're really passionate about, but what is
| more valuable to you: less people learning piano because the
| barrier to entry is thousands of dollars of equipment,
| lessons, and books, not to mention time and space, but when
| they play they have good velocity management, or, tons more
| people enjoying the instrument, but not really playing it as
| well?
| _jal wrote:
| To digress a bit, I hate this way of thinking.
|
| You're emphasizing boosterism over honesty. If "we" "want"
| something to be more popular, we should encourage shallow
| engagement with it, not correct poeples' bad habits, and
| just shout, "yay! More people in my thing!"
|
| Bullshit boosterism chases me off, and I know it chases
| others off, too. It tells me you have an agenda that treats
| me instrumentally, which is an excellent way to make me
| just ignore you.
| XCSme wrote:
| So if someone wants to play table-tennis I should
| constantly remind them of the how they should get a $100
| custom bat before they can do anything, use the correct
| technique by using their body and legs and sweating a lot
| instead of just letting them have fun? I am always happy
| when someone joins the club, even if they are good or
| not, it's their decision how much time, money and effort
| they want to invest in correcting their technique and
| improving their skill.
| _jal wrote:
| There's a difference between being honest and clear and
| being a jerk.
|
| Most humans are not so bad at figuring that out.
| XCSme wrote:
| I agree, although my point was that some people just want
| to have fun doing something, their goal isn't necessarily
| to get really good at it or to do it correctly. Many
| prefer doing things their own way rather than the right
| way, so they might not like being constantly told what
| they should do.
| _jal wrote:
| > so they might not like
|
| No shit. I said, 'most people are not so bad at figuring
| this out'.
|
| You're conflating an approach to niche skill development
| with jerks who don't know how to behave in public.
| They're not the same thing, and again, most normal people
| seem more than capable of figuring this out.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Also, perhaps it's mastery vs. creativity.
|
| People who are learning an instrument are arguably at
| their most creative in fact _because_ they don 't know
| the right way to use the instrument. As they become more
| proficient it seems they "fall in line" and naivete and
| serendipity go by the wayside.
| XCSme wrote:
| This is so true, as soon as I started learning more music
| theory I felt that my creativity went down as I started
| recognizing chords/progressions and I feel slowly getting
| stuck trying to play by the rules.
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| The former. We don't need more boosters of things done
| casually, for fun and a short time; we have knitting,
| duolingo and sourdough bread for that. I want to promote
| and help people pursue big things that take time and
| tremendous effort but have huge pay-off. I focus on a
| handful of people over my life and others can work at the
| top of the funnel.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| Why is mediocre bread OK but mediocre piano isn't?
|
| Why is people putting a little effort into making
| something aesthetic and fun such a crime?
|
| Serious piano has no payoff unless you're better than all
| the professional recordings we already have.
| XCSme wrote:
| The thing with doing one thing and well is that you are
| missing on all the other cool things in life. What if you
| chose the wrong thing? Why is being in the top 99th
| percentile so much better than being in the 90th
| percentile? Is it worth the extra 10 years spent working
| on that if you are still not in the 99.99th percentile? I
| don't think you should focus on the pay-off or the "OMG,
| I got so good at this!" part, you should just enjoy the
| journey and learning process. If you are ok with learning
| very slowly but always progressing it might be better
| than spending a tremendous effort in a short time just to
| quickly reach your ceiling and than hate the thing that
| you do.
| gjulianm wrote:
| I want more people to enjoy music, which means being honest
| with what comes with each method. Piano apps will be easy
| and cheap, but they have their limitations. Marketing and
| comments like the parent make it seem like you can just
| substitute a teacher and practice by using these apps. I
| also imagine that people can get frustrated if they see
| that after tons of practice they still don't sound how they
| like and they don't have a lot of tools to improve by
| themselves, because you don't get those tools from apps.
|
| And you're not really understanding me. I don't feel like
| these apps cheapen my effort. I just wish I knew the things
| I talk about in my comment earlier so that I could have
| taken the piano classes I had more seriously and I wouldn't
| have to suffer now the lack of technique, exercise and
| repertoire I have now.
| kace91 wrote:
| I've been learning due to covid as well!
|
| I would add earpeggio and music tutor for iOS (not affiliated,
| there are other similar apps). It's basically a Duolingo-like
| way to get used to reading sheet music and ear training
| respectively, you just put in 5 min a day and in a matter of
| weeks you're able to read sheet music relatively well.
| nautilus12 wrote:
| This will teach you to play keyboard but not piano. There is
| ALOT more to piano than pressing keys at the right time. It's
| as nuanced an instrument as the violin, but you don't know that
| unless you've studied professionally or played on a good
| instrument
| maille wrote:
| what kind of cheap keyboard would you recommend?
| Cactus2018 wrote:
| He says "el cheapo keyboard", but the search term would be
| "MIDI keyboard controller"
| jacquesm wrote:
| I'd scrounge craigslist and ebay for a lightly used Yamaha,
| Kawai or Roland digital piano. $300-400 should get you
| something that is next to brand new. People do a lot of
| impulse buying find out that it is hard work and then get rid
| of them again.
| tonystride wrote:
| I would say no cheaper than $500 from Roland, Yamaha, or
| Casio.
| dbrgn wrote:
| I bought a weighted Yamaha Arius e-piano (YDP-163) about 3
| years ago and am very happy with it! (Cost was around 1000$ I
| think, but there are also cheaper models.)
|
| I had a very cheap children's keyboard with non-weighted keys
| before. It was totally frustrating to play on that. Weighted
| keys made a world of a difference!
| publicola1990 wrote:
| I would recommend a casio S300, should cost about 135$. Has
| touch sensitivity, and about 400 built in sound bank, ear
| phone jack, light and easy to carry/store as well.
| phkahler wrote:
| That part of is definitely poor advice, although prices are
| lower these days.
|
| Get something with at least 61 full sized and weighted keys.
| None of those light weight organ type keys, they need to feel
| more like piano keys. Polyphonic - able to play at least 8
| notes simultaneously.
|
| That would be the bare minimum IMHO. Getting the full 88 keys
| will probable ensure the rest but maybe not in some cases.
| thih9 wrote:
| > Get something with at least 61 full sized and weighted
| keys.
|
| As someone who plays a musical instrument as a hobby,
| getting an el cheapo toy seems a good first step to me.
|
| You get to see whether you actually enjoy playing and it
| lets you become familiar with the practice schedule. When
| you start to feel limited by your tool, you advance to a
| proper one.
|
| Otherwise you risk buying expensive gear and letting it
| collect dust 2 months later.
| tonystride wrote:
| Some low price keyboards are so bad that they might not
| properly convey the fun of piano because of their limited
| function and make you think you don't like it. You've
| gotta make sure that what you buy gives you an accurate
| picture of what it is like to play a quality instrument
| because a crappy instrument is not fun.
|
| For example I bought a $200 keyboard once because I
| thought it would lighten my load as a gigging pianist.
| Nice and light, 88 keys, built in speaker. Much better
| than lugging around my thousands of dollars of pro gear.
| But when I got it, it didn't have weighted keys, ok not
| fun but I can deal with that, but then it didn't have
| velocity sensitivity... Every note was just on/off. This
| was a deal breaker, it is strait up not fun to play a
| piano like that. I mean it's in the name Piano/Forte the
| instrument that can play loud and soft.
| phkahler wrote:
| I forgot to call out velocity sensitive. It's a must but
| I thought it's almost a given today but its not.
|
| I got a Cassio CPS-85 over 20 years ago. It was $900 bare
| minimum for me at the time and I still think the weight
| of the keys is a bit light. Still, that was my minimum
| and it still is though something like that should be
| cheaper today.
| devthane wrote:
| This for certain. The piano is way more fun to play with
| weighted keys and much more expressive. I bought my first
| weighted key piano, a Roland FP-30, this year and have been
| playing almost every day just for the fun of it.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| You can start with pressure sensitive, not weighted. Much
| less expensive.
| joegahona wrote:
| > Polyphonic - able to play at least 8 notes
| simultaneously.
|
| Don't you kind of have to go out of your way these days to
| _not_ get something polyphonic?
| claudiawerner wrote:
| Polyphony on keyboards is less about physically playing
| multiple keys at once, but having the sound of multiple
| keys audible as they decay. Even the cheapest keyboard
| will let you play many notes at once; those that will
| actually sound a large number of keys after you've hit
| them are pricier.
| phkahler wrote:
| Yeah, but they still exist and you'd be surprised at some
| of the models with this deficiency.
| snvzz wrote:
| Something properly weighted. $700-1000.
| [deleted]
| duiker101 wrote:
| who doesn't have that cash laying around just to try an
| hobby?
| jacquesm wrote:
| Why buy new?
| snvzz wrote:
| Buying used is an option. Learning Piano is unpleasant on a
| non-weighted keyboard, and bad habit forming is a very real
| issue.
|
| I remembered that Synthesia's got some specific advice:
| https://synthesiagame.com/keyboards/info
| kidproquo wrote:
| Completely agree on the Simply Piano plus MIDI approach. My
| autistic son is musically inclined, can play piano by ear. We
| have struggled trying to get him formally trained to read
| music. Then we found Simply Piano. He's taken to it very well,
| treating it as a game. This is the only way we have managed to
| get him to read music. We use it in conjunction with a music
| teacher via Zoom. Here's a video of him playing
| https://youtu.be/NEa9X36e7Vo
| dade_ wrote:
| People can disagree with you all they want about the app. I
| figured out how to play with both hands at the same time with
| Simply Piano. To me, that is magical. Also, it's fun. I am
| using a M-Audio keyboard, which senses speed and was good to
| get started, and now I feel proficient enough that I want to
| buy a digital piano. Looking at Kawai, but can't visit a music
| store showroom because of COVID lockdown.
|
| Maybe in time I will change my mind, but I think it makes
| perfect sense to use a basic MIDI keyboard to learn the keys
| and notes while deciding if it is something enjoyable and worth
| a substantial financial investment.
| jhawk28 wrote:
| The Roland FP-30 has the best piano feel at the low end. The
| Kawai MP11SE is considered to be the best at any price range.
| lscotte wrote:
| I tried a few of these apps but I wasn't really learning
| anything. Eventually, I found pianote.com and I couldn't be
| more happy - it's worth checking out as another option for
| online piano learning (they also have drum and guitar
| programs).
|
| I agree not to buy an expensive piano (or keyboard). While a
| fully weighted 88-key instrument is definitely ideal, you can
| get by just fine on a semi, or even el-cheapo, 61-key keyboard.
| aoeusnth1 wrote:
| If you have a child < 5 years old, I highly recommend teaching
| them perfect pitch, AKA absolute pitch. In my experience it only
| took a few hours of note-color association in combination with
| some stickers on the piano keys for my child to learn absolute
| pitch at 2 years old, which they have retained for years.
| aoeusnth1 wrote:
| Steps:
|
| 0. Buy a cheap Yamaha or Casio keyboard, which can be had for
| 80-120 used. Leave it on the floor, plugged in and on them to
| play with at any time. 1. Buy color stickers, like https://www.
| amazon.com/dp/B00DRGXBIM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apip_WTz.... 2. Label
| each unique note in the twelve tone scale with a distinct
| color. The system I used was the one from welearnandplay.com:
| cdefgab=red,yellow,green,orange,blue,gray,purple. 3. Play games
| with the kid's favorite toys and the notes.
|
| - Example: find a red and green toy. Introduce the red toy
| while singing red=C, like "this is the red
| truck/doll/fox/whatever". Then do the same with the other color
| you picked. Have them show you a toy, then sing a story about
| that toy using only that color note. - Point out the colors of
| things you see. Use a tuner or piano app on your phone to
| generate accurate tones. This requires that you memorize the
| note color system yourself, which will happen easily after
| about an hour of initial play.
| aoeusnth1 wrote:
| Important: don't "quiz" your child or test their absolute
| pitch progress in any overt way. That is a quick way to suck
| all the fun out of it and kill their interest in the games.
| kace91 wrote:
| If any of you is fluent in Spanish and want to learn to play
| piano, I can't recommend Jaime altozano enough (he's on YouTube).
| He's the best music teacher and communicator I've seen in any
| language, I would compare him to what threeblueonebrown is for
| math.
|
| He also has some paid courses available in
| https://www.musihacks.com/ but just the free content is already
| awesome to understand modes, scales, pregressions, etc
| martin_vejmelka wrote:
| Awesome tip, thanks for that!
| markdown wrote:
| > I would compare him to what threeblueonebrown is for math
|
| Never heard of that person, but I'm intrigued. Are they better
| than Sal Khan?
| kjsthree wrote:
| Well, now I know about 3Blue1Brown so thanks for that!
| actuator wrote:
| Has someone here picked a musical instrument seriously for the
| first time in their 20s and managed to self learn? If yes, it
| would be helpful if you could point to resources that were
| helpful to you and any daily practice schedule you followed?
|
| I have tried learning piano and I found a lot of stuff
| irritatingly hard to get right and got bored. Like for some
| reason I am not able to transition to other keys well when I am
| using both hands or when some finger involuntarily moves because
| of motion of neighboring finger. Also, I seem to get finger
| fatigue which is surprising considering the amount of time I
| spend on keyboards anyway.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| Finger fatigue suggests you're holding tension in your fingers
| and wrists. A good teacher can help you with that. You need to
| learn to keep your fingers and wrists as relaxed as possible -
| which is unbelievably hard to do when you're also trying to
| learn how to read music.
|
| Watch some slow piano music being played by a concert pianist,
| and you'll see that - except for the odd flourish - they move
| fingers and wrists as little as possible. The hands float, they
| don't hover in a tense way.
|
| It also depends on the keyboard you're using. There's a big
| difference between a soft and fast keyboard action and a piano
| action with real or simulated hammers. The latter is much
| harder on your fingers to start with, but gives you more
| control and stamina later.
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| your last point is spot-on; I have a decent yamaha electric
| piano and the action is quite a bit heavier than my sister's
| Boston acuostic. It's not suprising but still notable how
| much more fatigued you feel after an hour of playing mine vs.
| hers.
| aaronax wrote:
| Yes, guitar primarily via the game Rocksmith 2014. Very
| rewarding overall and amazingly fun.
| bufordtwain wrote:
| I tried guitar in my 20's but it didn't stick. Then I picked it
| up again in my 40's and it did stick. I needed a distraction in
| my life. I used free youtube guitar teachers such as justin
| guitar and found songs to play along with. Initially I used
| tabs (written guides for what strings/positions to play) and
| eventually was able to figure out songs by ear. Most recently
| I've switched to bass guitar and am having a blast. I play most
| days. I think the most important thing is to have fun with
| whatever instrument you pick. When listening to the radio I
| listen for songs that have a good bass line. When I hear one I
| send myself a message or add a bookmark and try to play it
| later.
| XCSme wrote:
| Learning anything is just muscle memory.
|
| The muscle memory can only be developed by constantly doing the
| same thing over a long period of time, every day. Every time
| you sleep is when the skill learned during the day is actually
| "saved" and increased.
|
| Trying to do everything perfect at once from the start is
| impossible. Only once something gets into your muscle memory
| you can focus on other things. At first you might not be able
| to find the correct key and have to constantly look at the
| keyboard, but once you are over that you can now focus on
| coordination, rhythm or other stuff.
|
| Learning and getting better is just the process of constantly
| embedding something in your muscle memory so you can
| consciously focus on something else.
| palimpsests wrote:
| In my 20s, I self-taught myself drums, percussion,
| piano/keyboard, Ableton, DJ (live mixing and remixing in
| multihour sets using vinyl records, samplers, and other bits of
| gear - very much a kind of musical instrument - perhaps it's
| more of a meta-instrument).
|
| I play a lot of instruments (have been playing guitar, bass,
| woodwinds, and singing since age 10), and my practice routines
| on various instruments have a lovely way of informing my
| development and expression on others.
| gokhan wrote:
| Although I learned (and forgot) playing guitar <20, I got
| interested again in playing these days/months. From what I see,
| https://www.justinguitar.com/ is a great resource if you got
| the self discipline.
|
| I believe guitar is a very accessible instrument and an
| electric guitar is easy to practice silently late at night,
| relatively cheap (Squier Stratocaster Pack etc.) and easy on
| the fingers compared to, for example, an acoustic guitar.
|
| With learning 4-5 chords, you can perfectly cover lots of great
| songs. Learning pentatonic scale is not that hard for
| improvising soloing over those chords with a cheap loop pedal.
| All under 200-250$ and half an hour a day for, let's say, a
| year.
| _0o6v wrote:
| I'm enjoying working through the Faber Adult Piano Adventures
| books: https://pianoadventures.com/browse/libraries/piano-
| adventure...
| sabellito wrote:
| I started learning the piano in my 20s, and now have been
| playing it for over 10 years.
|
| The key for me was to forego all theory learning and just
| have fun with it. Eventually, I got into it enough to go
| through all the memorization bits.
|
| If piano sounds appealing to you, I recommend using software
| like Synthesia to make the first few months as easy as
| possible, to get excited about it.
|
| I have the impression that many people learning instruments,
| and sadly also many teachers, take an approach that kills
| motivation. It seems to me that very few people want to
| become professionals, and that most just want to be able to
| play a few songs and have fun. For that you don't need
| perfect posture, or learn all the scales, sight read, etc.
| diggan wrote:
| > Has someone here have picked a musical instrument seriously
| for the first time in their 20s and managed to self learn?
|
| Yeah, I've learnt piano and drums just last few years (I'm 28).
| I'm no professional, but I also had difficulties with using
| both hands, involuntarily movements and fatigue in different
| parts of the body.
|
| Best thing I done was just to practice, practice and more
| practice. Practice with one hand first until you know it
| without thinking, then add the other hand slowly. Same goes
| from drums (and other instruments I'm assuming), start slowly
| until you know it by heart, then speed up.
|
| No strict schedule, I just play when I feel like it. If I want
| something intense I play drums. If I feel like melodies, I play
| piano. Otherwise I mostly use a Novation Circuit and Octatrack
| (and some other smaller gadgets for bass lines etc) for playing
| electronic music, mostly just improvisation.
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| Learned Tabla (a South Asian percussion instrument) this year
| at age 31. A teacher is must. Not only does a good teacher give
| you customized advice on what to practice, based on your
| weaknesses, but is also able to tell you when you are ready to
| move on.
|
| More precisely, a good teacher, will constantly keep you in the
| slightly uncomfortable phase of not too easy, not too difficult
| practice.
| pengstrom wrote:
| Self-learning any instrument is exceedingly hard. I cannot
| recommend a tutor highly enough. There's a lot of, well art to
| it that's difficult to convey other than in person. Self-
| learners often pick up bad habits which limits them and drain
| the fun out of it.
|
| I picked up clarinet a few years ago, and while I made good
| progress just from practicing it was not until I engaged with a
| tutor I really got going.
| bartkappenburg wrote:
| This, times 100. Other commenters in this thread recommend
| apps like simply piano. That is bad advice. I have a tutor 30
| mins per week and made my progress exponential. All the
| popular apps are just video games with high scores etc. No
| feedback on posture, fingering, tempo and lots of other
| stuff.
|
| Please, please, find a tutor and be amazed about what he or
| she can make you accomplish.
| dkarp wrote:
| I began learning piano at age 27.
|
| Piano fingering technique is very important. That's not just
| which finger hits which key, but also the posture of your
| finger. That could be what's straining your fingers and giving
| you trouble reaching keys.
|
| I found a local piano teacher and took weekly lessons. The
| piano teacher caught these bad habits like finger technique,
| but also how hard to hit the keys and other things that I
| wouldn't have noticed on my own.
|
| If you are set on self-learning, getting a few lessons every
| once in a while will help you stay on track.
| Andrex wrote:
| > Has someone here picked a musical instrument seriously for
| the first time in their 20s and managed to self learn? If yes,
| it would be helpful if you could point to resources that were
| helpful to you and any daily practice schedule you followed?
|
| Self-learning piano is, overall, a boondoggle. You want a
| teacher.
|
| I started learning piano in December 2018 at the age of 27. For
| the first couple months I stayed on my own to build up at least
| _some_ base knowledge before getting a (remote) teacher in
| April 2019. I mostly used a service called Flowkey (sorta like
| Synthesia for the web), the book Music Theory for Dummies, and
| a course on Udemy by Ben Westenra.
|
| I highly recommend getting a teacher, even remote, using a site
| like TakeLessons.com. They'll keep you motivated, answer your
| questions, and set accomplishable goals.
|
| > I have tried learning piano and I found a lot of stuff
| irritatingly hard to get right and got bored. Like for some
| reason I am not able to transition to other keys well when I am
| using both hands or when some finger involuntarily moves
| because of motion of neighboring finger.
|
| Cumulative hours of practice are necessary to learn even a
| single piece, and short of Matrix-style skill uploading,
| there's no shortcut to putting the time in.
|
| > Also, I seem to get finger fatigue which is surprising
| considering the amount of time I spend on keyboards anyway.
|
| Not all keys are the same. :) Your fingers are getting a much
| different and more intense workout by playing.
|
| Edit- Updated language since someone focused on pulling a
| "gotcha" on me for upvotes over the context (in this case,
| piano.)
| bluedino wrote:
| >> Self-learning is, overall, a boondoggle. You want a
| teacher.
|
| "I play the guitar. I taught myself how to play the guitar,
| which was a bad decision because I didn't know how to play
| it, so I was a [bad] teacher. I would never have went to me."
| Andrex wrote:
| I was speaking in the context of the piano.
|
| I'm told it's easier to self-learn the guitar, but you're
| working against your own interests if you're violently
| opposed to the idea of a teacher, no matter the instrument.
| madhadron wrote:
| > I'm told it's easier to self-learn the guitar
|
| This is false. If you want to strum some chords, then,
| yes. Guitar's difficulty curve starts out very gentle.
| But then it quickly gets really, really steep. I self
| taught classical guitar for a couple of years (after
| already having played violin for many years), and it's
| easy to get yourself to the point where it's hard to
| advance without a teacher. And the harder you push on
| that knee in the curve by yourself, the more time you'll
| probably have to spend unlearning bad habits.
|
| Piano's difficulty curve is more even. It starts steeper
| than guitar, and has a long stretch at about that same
| slope, before it starts getting steep, too. Compare that
| to violin which starts basically straight up, but once
| you get past that initial cliff is fairly gentle for a
| long, long way.
| Kaibeezy wrote:
| Interesting multidimensional analysis. I'd like to see a
| collection and ongoing discussion of these graphs. Not
| just for musical instruments but everything. Start a
| blog, friend, or point me at ones you've seen.
| tgittos wrote:
| I picked up the guitar a few years back in my mid 30s, did
| lessons for a year, took a year off and got back into it
| through Covid-19.
|
| > I have tried learning piano and I found a lot of stuff
| irritatingly hard to get right and got bored
|
| This maps to my first experience. Your first obstacle is the UI
| and getting your hands to do what your brain wants them to do
| without thinking about it. For myself learning guitar, this was
| the hardest obstacle. Once you sort out the mechanics of
| playing without thinking, you can start thinking about the
| music and actually having fun.
|
| My only question is, do you really want to learn the piano?
|
| Cause you need to want it, to get through those first few
| weeks/months of getting used to the UI. Until you break that
| barrier it's going to be un-fun and sound terrible and be very
| frustrating. The desire to play needs to be great enough to
| push through that. If you don't want it, you'll struggle to
| force yourself to push through.
|
| To answer your actual question, Youtube and other musicians are
| what I feel most help me grow right now. I've done in person
| classes, bought books, bought multiple online classes and
| trawled Youtube for endless hours looking for lessons and song
| play alongs (getting a sense of the pattern of how important
| really wanting to learn to play is?). It wasn't until I started
| playing with other musicians that my abilities and
| understanding really took off.
| j3th9n wrote:
| I started playing guitar when I was 25, with the help of some
| random youtube videos and a growth mind set. And now piano at
| age 39, so far just doing random things, as long as it sounds
| nice.
| markvdb wrote:
| Professional guitar teacher here.
|
| One of the many things a good teacher will help you do is avoid
| technical pitfalls. If you do this on your own unchecked,
| chances are you will end up blocked somewhere down the road and
| having to relearn basic techniques.
|
| Another thing is they will have plenty of interesting musical
| practice material that suits your skill level and interests.
|
| They'll also help you manage your expectations.
|
| I've got quite a few students who were very uneven in their
| growth. They've had to learn basic things in one area while
| very advanced in another. More often than not, they've had to
| relearn things they learned to do the wrong way from scratch.
|
| Learning to play a musical instrument is usually not easy. If
| you can afford the investment of time and/or money, get a
| teacher. The good ones are worth their weight in gold, and the
| good news for you is, they're relatively cheap. They get paid
| peanuts in comparison to you as a techie.
| ben7799 wrote:
| I worked on Piano in my 20s and a bit in my 30s and had several
| different in person teachers. I did almost no music as a kid.
|
| Sometimes you just picked the wrong instrument.. The day I
| officially gave up piano (with RSIs from piano even) I bought a
| guitar as a consolation "I didn't really give up" thing.
|
| That was about 6 years ago.. I've taken guitar lessons the last
| 4 years and have had great success compared to piano. I would
| say my guitar teacher is a much superior teacher than the piano
| teachers I had though.
|
| Sometimes you just picked the wrong instrument. I don't miss
| piano at all really. I still love the piano but it wasn't for
| me.. and guitars are far more affordable which is very nice.
| trianglem wrote:
| I did. I was able to self learn the guitar and can play
| relatively well. I used Justin guitar for the basics a long
| time ago and then jumped right into learning songs. Using a
| metronome is the most important thing since it puts pressure on
| you. You have to do a "performance" every so often and that
| works for some reason. Initially it was my roommates but later
| in life it was my wife :) The interest to grasp theory for me
| came a lot later and I know a lot of it but don't do much in
| the way of composing or using it too much so there's that. But
| I've heard that the recommended way is to get a tutor from many
| many people.
| alphabetter wrote:
| In reddit /r/piano there are a lot of similar questions, and as
| someone learning piano in their 50s is always amuses me.
|
| I self-tought to about an ABRSM grade 1 level before getting a
| teacher, but I had done a little bit (less than a year) as a
| small kid.
|
| Particularly the early stages are very hard and it takes a lot
| of practice to do seemlingly trivial things. It is a differnet
| skill from touch typing. I find the "Dozen a Day" books of
| studies really good for training your fingers to do what you
| want them to, instead of what they want to do.
| astatine wrote:
| I tried to learn guitar a couple of years ago. I wanted to
| learn something which required me to use my fingers
| differently than on a keyboard. But, as someone in their 50s
| with a lifetime of working on software I found it practically
| impossible to get my fingers to curve the way they needed to
| for the guitar. The physical pain eventually made me give up.
| If anyone has any tips to work around this limitation will be
| great to hear
| bluescrn wrote:
| I've never understood why the ability to play music is
| still locked away behind such difficult, even painful 'user
| interfaces' of traditional instruments.
|
| Why don't we have more beginner-friendly and ergonomic
| instruments? Is it just because they're seen as 'cheating'?
| kosma wrote:
| Violin at ripe old age of 25. The key for me was enjoyment...
| playing with others, picking the kind of music I vibe with, not
| bothering with exercises that are devoid of emotion and joy. I
| slapped frets on my violin to make the learning curve easier,
| which made a few people raise an eyebrow, but... I don't care.
| I'm here to enjoy it, not to become a purist.
|
| Can I real sheet music? Nope. Do I understand all the fancy
| words describing techniques? No. Am I good at this? Good enough
| that when I play, people dance. That counts as a success in my
| book.
| jonfromsf wrote:
| Putting frets on your fiddle is a brilliant idea. Well done!
| madhadron wrote:
| > I slapped frets on my violin to make the learning curve
| easier
|
| It's not totally crazy. Fretted, bowed instruments have a
| long history, such as the viola da gamba. The frets there
| have more to do with tone than pitch, though.
| cipherboy wrote:
| \o fellow violinist here. Never thought about frets, but a
| lot of people (myself included) started with tape on their
| fingerboard. Usually it'd only go to about 2nd position at
| most. You have a reference point for where to place your
| finger, but it doesn't impact pitch (and prevent vibrato) as
| much as a fret would.
|
| Just something to think about... :)
| madhadron wrote:
| > a lot of people (myself included) started with tape on
| their fingerboard.
|
| I have come to dislike this method. It gets the student
| focused on looking at the fingerboard and using the small
| lateral muscles in their fingers to try to reach for the
| tape rather than finding the large muscle positioning and
| biomechanics that produces in tune fingerings.
|
| Hold up your hand with fingers straight. Try spreading your
| fingers and then pulling them together fast. They kind of
| "pop" between the two positions, and if you look at the
| spread position, they're basically the same distance apart.
| So if you can arrange your arm so that spread drops an in-
| tune whole step on the fingerboard and together drops an
| in-tune half step, you will play in tune.
|
| You do that by rotating your elbow under the instrument.
| The farther toward your back the elbow is, the more your
| hand is angled from the neck, and the closer the spacing
| between where your fingers fall on the fingerboard. The
| more your push your elbow forward, the more your fingers
| fall farther apart on the strings. There's an in-tune
| position for each of the four strings, and kind of
| inbetweens for double stops. Training your gross muscle
| memory to find that position is vastly easier than
| searching for tapes, you don't get in the habit of looking
| at the fingerboard (because there's nothing there that
| makes a difference), and you don't get slowed down later
| because your lateral muscles in your fingers are tense and
| making your fingers move slower.
|
| The funny thing is that I think this was described in
| Geminiani's treatise, which was the first manual of violin
| playing ever.
| cipherboy wrote:
| OP was using frets, so I mentioned tapes... :-)
|
| Fundamentally, technique differs a lot based on size of
| the player. Ricci vs Perlman vs Shaham vs Midori vs Hahn
| vs Paganini, they all make the technique looks
| effortless. And the a lot reason why is because they've
| spent a lot of time removing bad tension from their
| playing.
|
| While elbow positioning does matter, it is more a
| function of string and third vs fifth hand position. The
| fingerboard is curved, not flat, and you want the finger
| to land normal to the board for any given string.
|
| Look for the work of Sol Babitz, or if you can't find it,
| Borivoj Martinic-Jercic's forward to his exercises.
|
| For me, what helped the most was removing the shoulder
| rest during practice. You become accutely aware of the
| the delicate balancing act that needs to occur, and the
| forces you put on the instrument. With time, you can
| develop balance in the left hand and achieve better
| dexterity than before. For anyone with sufficiently long
| neck, you can no longer rely on continual holding, and
| need to support the instrument (in fixed position
| sections) via the thumb. This encourages you to release
| pressure on the digits as you play. :-)
|
| But like OP said, they're happy so why mess with what
| works for them. :-)
|
| P.S. what rep are you working on? Feel free to drop me an
| email if you're interested in discussing more.
| dghughes wrote:
| On my resume I like to put everyone that plays piano isn't a
| Beethoven. There is a range between expert and those who don't
| even play. This is my excuse for being in IT but not well in
| programming.
| trianglem wrote:
| Wait, you admit on your resume you're not good at programming
| and still get programming jobs?
| dghughes wrote:
| Not programming jobs but anything IT now is heavy on
| programming/scripting.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| I'm good at programming. I rarely use my talent in a job;
| it's mostly plumbing and communication. All I really need to
| know is:
|
| * PEP-8
|
| * Reading error messages
|
| * Reading documentation
|
| * The organisation's patching / monkey-patching standards
|
| * Who to talk to about what, and when
| kranner wrote:
| "Use what talents you possess; the woods would be very silent
| if no birds sang there except those that sang best."
|
| -- attributed to Henry van Dyke
| adidar83 wrote:
| You actually place this on your resume? I'm wondering the
| response from hiring managers. Thanks
| dghughes wrote:
| Nothing dramatic then again no mentions of it good or bad.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I'd be super impressed. I'd much rather hire someone who was
| up front about their limitations than someone who thought
| they were a '10x programmer'. A bit of humility will get you
| much further than misplaced arrogance.
| galaxyLogic wrote:
| https://youtu.be/P31Fj0O5RSQ
| ad31mar wrote:
| Can it get you to Marc Rebillet's [0] level in 5 years of a few
| hours per day practice? He makes it look so effortless and I
| can't even begin to imagine the flow state he's experiencing.
|
| [0] https://youtu.be/XMFnkKWXgKw?t=203
| evo wrote:
| I feel like there's two different skill-sets at play--the
| ability to learn a piece, as printed, and play it back
| accurately, and then this, which is more improvisational
| skills. The two skill sets intertwine but mastery of one does
| not necessarily transfer.
|
| To learn the latter quickly, I find it easiest to build a
| catalogue of music you like listening to, and then figure out
| how to transcribe it (by ear) on your piano. Maybe just the
| most overt melody lines at first, before you can grok chords
| all that well.
|
| In time, you start building your own internalized library of
| "licks", little musical gestures that are automatic, and to
| achieve what Marc is doing, is to just string those gestures
| together. It sounds musically complex but when you're doing it,
| it almost feels like cheating, because you're leaning so hard
| on these "tropes" that you've built up over time.
| jacquesm wrote:
| That guy is absolutely incredible.
|
| I posted this on HN a while ago but it sank without a trace:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vBwRfQbXkg
| ad31mar wrote:
| Yeah, I just wish he'd veer off more often to these
| incredible improv jazz lands (like the one I posted) in his
| live streams. They might not be as catchy as the short loops
| he's currently pushing out, but damn, aren't they just
| delightful!
| PianoGym wrote:
| Oh man this is so exciting!
|
| We've been looking for content to help bootstrap
| https://pianogym.com
|
| If you're not familiar with Piano Gym - We're an independent
| content creation and learning platform for Piano that uses flash
| cards and spaced repetition to smooth out all the hard parts of
| deliberate practice for learning Piano!
|
| You can see a beta demo video here
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMmSM4RB1NI
|
| One of the biggest issues we've had has been getting teachers to
| create content for us, but with this kind of open content, that
| doesn't seem to be a problem anymore!
|
| Come and check out Piano Gym if you're interested! We'd love to
| have you in the gym with us!
|
| Come and do your reps!
| asimpletune wrote:
| Playing piano starts with melody [1]. Kids have the best method
| for learning something new. They are epistemologists of their own
| world.
|
| 1. https://youtu.be/hkQOtL6gzX4 (this title might throw you off,
| but she truly communicates what I mean so well about starting
| with melody.)
| TheOv3rminD wrote:
| The drawings on that website are freaking me out.
| tucosan wrote:
| Same for the typography. Opened and closed it immediately.
| vixen99 wrote:
| Worth mentioning for anyone who happens not to know about it that
| there's a massive repository of out-of-copyright (either by time
| or decision of the composer) music scores and recordings for all
| instruments by a huge number of composers. Using the 'genre'
| section is useful for finding music of an appropriate level for
| performers.
|
| https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Composers
| https://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page
| https://imslp.org/wiki/IMSLP:View_Genres
|
| Download is free but delayed by 15 seconds unless you pay a small
| yearly fee.
| _Anken wrote:
| IMSLP is absolutely essential for working musicians! Glad to
| see it on here.
| wolco2 wrote:
| Love the business model.
| agumonkey wrote:
| Economy of time
| bananapear wrote:
| There's also the Mutopia project:
|
| https://www.mutopiaproject.org/
|
| They are working to typeset out of copyright works using GNU
| LilyPond. The scores are particularly beautifully typeset and
| very easy to read when printed.
| biophysboy wrote:
| Long-time pianist here, here's a resource I also like:
|
| https://fundamentals-of-piano-practice.readthedocs.io/
|
| I like this resource because it is anti-workaholic and
| principled. It also really focuses on developing good habits,
| which is a huge part of piano. A strategic approach to practice
| can make it MUCH more efficient.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Thank you!
| porknubbins wrote:
| This sounds like a great resource, am I missing something or
| are there only two chapters and one is dedicated to piano
| tuning? Or is this more of a meta resource that tells you where
| to go to learn something like chord theory etc?
| biophysboy wrote:
| Yeah, I don't know why he organizes like that. If you click
| on chapter one, you'll find basically an entire book of
| information in that one chapter.
|
| This resource doesn't actually teach piano per se - it
| teaches "piano practice". In principle, you could use this to
| learn whatever you want.
| modulo42 wrote:
| Started learning clarinet in my 30. The internet was full of
| advice against learning clarinet without a teacher. So I took
| lessons. It surely helped but it did not feel like a great
| accelerator. Most gain came from practising almost every day for
| about three years. After the birth of my daughter I stopped
| taking lessons because I did no longer have the time to practice
| and to drive to the teacher's home once a week. I wonder if
| anyone has experience with online teaching? Commuting to a
| teacher's place won't fit my schedule anymore. But I wonder
| whether a teacher can really be helpful via a standard webcam.
| gregsadetsky wrote:
| I started learning the saxophone at about the same age than
| you. I agree that daily practice changes everything in terms of
| progress -- one trick (suggested by my teacher) is to always
| have the instrument out of its box/carrying bag and ready to
| play. You will tend to pick it up (even randomly during the
| day) much more.
|
| As for teaching, I found an amazingly kind, patient and
| talented sax teacher before the pandemic and went to her studio
| once a week. We've since transitioned to online teaching and
| although there are of course things that you need to adapt to
| (switching from facetime to skype to another device mid class
| because it's echo cancelling the song you're trying to play
| over), it's really great.
|
| Her academic / professionaly trained ear picks up all of the
| problems I'm not aware of. And her guidance and praise keeps me
| motivated. She comes up with new exercises knowing what will
| interest me (I'm learning almost exclusively by ear), suggests
| great new songs, etc.
|
| I highly recommend reaching out to your teacher and asking if
| lessons are offered online.
|
| And anyone looking for an amazing sax teacher, contact me. (No
| affiliation ha. Just lots of praise for this amazing person)
| gjulianm wrote:
| Right now I'm learning clarinet online via Skype due to COVID
| (clarinet playing doesn't seem to be the safest activity right
| now). It's honestly better than I expected. Try to get a decent
| microphone (not very expensive, I got one for around 30-40
| euros, Skype does not have sound quality high enough to notice
| better mics) and headphones.
|
| There are still limitations, teacher can't really test the
| reeds, and some things can't be heard through Skype, but it's
| better than nothing. You can also combine it with in-person
| classes once a month or once every two months so that the
| teacher can hear you for real and correct things every once in
| a while.
| timeoperator wrote:
| Oh don piano.
| amelius wrote:
| I wish piano methods would offer me the choice of genre (jazz,
| latin, classical, ...) and that they would start with songs that
| are perhaps technically simple, but still interesting from a
| musical viewpoint.
| joduplessis wrote:
| What is usually interesting from a musical standpoint in your
| personal music taste. Jazz is very interesting, but not
| everyone's cup of tea, etc.
| phkahler wrote:
| Imposing variety on the student can also contribute to making
| them a better musician.
|
| I found it fascinating and refreshing to see Brad Paisley
| (country star) playing Hot for Teacher by Van Halen.
| blisterpeanuts wrote:
| You might look at the Suzuki method; their melodies draw from
| both folk and classical traditions.
| tonystride wrote:
| I'm working on something like this right now. Pieces that are
| accessible but not boring. Getting into jazz early can be
| tough, like how will you understand an extremely basic 3-6-9
| voicing and how it connects to a 7-3-5 voicing in a circle of
| fifths progression if you haven't studied your basic triads,
| basic 7th chords and the circle of fifths? And not just reading
| about them but spending enough time to absorb them into your
| pianistic vocabulary. Sure you could do it by rote but that's
| about as fun as memorizing a page of Spanish and reciting it
| without any comprehension. Any who I don't want to knock your
| ambition, but rather let you know that from the other side of
| things I'm thinking of this as well. How do I build the best
| and quickest ladder of abstraction to jazz for amelius?
| OJFord wrote:
| > Getting into jazz early can be tough, like how will you
| understand an extremely basic 3-6-9 voicing and how it
| connects to a 7-3-5 voicing in a circle of fifths progression
| if you haven't studied your basic triads, basic 7th chords
| and the circle of fifths?
|
| Do you really need to? Why can't you just play something that
| 'sounds jazzy' but is simple enough without understanding any
| theory behind how it was written? Just for early
| interest/motivation/joy of having made that sound oneself.
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| because the GP asked for a method that would teach them
| based on a genre. If I teach you to play something that
| sounds jazzy I have not taught you anything about jazz.
| scarecrowbob wrote:
| The issue is that reading the notes in standard notation
| is, at least to me, much more difficult than reading Dm7
| and come up with a reasonable inversion of the chord based
| on where my hands are in relation to the C#dim that I'm
| current playing.
|
| It's a pragmatic thing, not just gatekeeping.
| tonystride wrote:
| Absolutely, like I said, I'm working on stuff like this
| right now. Having said that, perhaps it's a combination of
| my own personal trauma from originally being taught in a
| very rote way and thousands of hours of helping students
| learn to read, but I have an aversion to not knowing what
| you are doing. I remember looking at stacks of chords 3-6-9
| to 7-3-5, or even trying to read a basic root position C7
| chord with the RH doing stuff on top and feeling really
| hopeless to get my LH to fall into those shapes. I've also
| seen this with many students. Chords are hard if you don't
| see them as words and try to look at every note every time.
| -\\_(tsu)_/-
| amelius wrote:
| > Getting into jazz early can be tough
|
| I think that depends. The student may have been listening to
| jazz for their entire grownup life. To them, starting with
| "Jingle bells", etc. like some piano methods do can be very
| boring or off-putting.
| tonystride wrote:
| Yes and no. There is an art to reaching someone with talent
| who is untrained. It's like their innate sense of music is
| a reservoir behind a damn and the damn is their facility on
| the keyboard. There's no shortcut to bringing that damn
| down no matter how much water is in your reservoir an often
| times the ones with the most water have so much pressure
| that it affects their ability to be patient and thoroughly
| build a channel through the damn. Sometimes my most
| successful students are the ones without much prior
| learning because, yah know, tortoise and the hair. But
| regardless, I'll do my best to connect to any student and
| help them build that channel.
| scarecrowbob wrote:
| I play a lot of jazz and blues on the piano, well enough that
| people pay me to do that. I can't read very well, and if I had
| to play Bach correctly (or, I'd really struggle even reading
| student etudes), but when I've played in big bands I've gotten
| by okay.
|
| It's possible to learn the way I did, which was to first learn
| guitar and bass, and get an idea of how chord progressions
| work...
|
| At that point, you can approach the piano like guitar, and play
| a bass line with your left hand and whatever chords you want on
| the right, and slowly move into reading and playing melodies
| from fakebooks.
|
| That isn't, I think, a very hard approach to the instrument,
| and it gives you a lot of latitude on what you get from it. The
| first song I played on piano was Grateful Dead's tune Ripple...
| it's 3 chords and I just alternated the bass notes and sang the
| melody.
|
| You're not going to find a method book that does that, because
| there's not a lot of method to it.
| LeSaucy wrote:
| Most method books will touch on a wide variety of genres,
| usually to illustrate specific topics in music theory. If you
| can't reason about intervals/scales, key, and chord
| progressions, "learning" genres like jazz will be like trying
| to learn differential calculus before linear algebra.
| dec0dedab0de wrote:
| This is the same kind of logic that leads to whiteboard
| algorithm questions. Music theory and musicianship are not
| the same thing. There are many many great musicians who only
| enough to make the sounds they want to make. Sure they might
| be better if they took the time to learn, but not
| necessarily.
| palimpsests wrote:
| I'm curious if you are a musician? This description of
| music theory (whiteboard algorithms) feels really off to me
| (feel free to look at my sibling comments as to why).
|
| If it's your experience as a musician I would like to
| understand why.
| gjulianm wrote:
| > Music theory and musicianship are not the same thing.
|
| No, but it helps a lot to know a language that helps you
| write down and learn musical concepts.
|
| > There are many many great musicians who only enough to
| make the sounds they want to make.
|
| Are there great musicians who don't know what a scale, a
| chord progression or a key is?
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| While I agree with your overall point, and these people
| are definitely the exception to the rule, yes actually.
|
| Dave Mustaine of Megadeth, Flea from Red Hot Chili
| Pepers, Omar-Rodriguez Lopez of The Mars Volta / At The
| Drive-In / Antemasque
|
| https://twitter.com/davemustaine/status/94252896877909606
| 5?l...
|
| https://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/flea-returns-to-
| scho...
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20080601005441/http://www.sig
| non...
| guyu96 wrote:
| Not sure about this analogy, since linear algebra is largely
| orthogonal to single-variable calculus. Agreed on the musical
| part though.
| patmorgan23 wrote:
| Replace liner algebra with basic algebra and the analogy
| holds.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Calculus in practice involves a lot of symbol manipulation,
| so it's important to understand the symbols. Jazz in practice
| involves a lot of playing an instrument, so it's important to
| understand...
|
| Fill in the blank. I don't know about you, but _I_ don 't
| fill it in with "music theory".
| palimpsests wrote:
| ... how to use music theory to develop efficient practice
| routines for your instrument(s), goals, and current
| abilities.
|
| -- jazz musician of 25 years
|
| (this calculus metaphor is pretty far off - music theory in
| practice, by a working jazz musician, doesn't involve
| "manipulation of symbols", at least not in the same way as
| one works mathematical problems and proofs. it involves a
| lot of time on your instrument, applying theory in
| practical and experiental ways. oftentimes we will write
| out a lead sheet, or transpose something, and use theory to
| do that. and so there's some calculations happening. it
| becomes second nature with practice).
| dehrmann wrote:
| It's more akin to reading and writing than to calculus.
| bondarchuk wrote:
| I like First Lessons in Bach for this reason. It's public
| domain by now so you can get it from archive.org or imslp.
| Cactus2018 wrote:
| https://imslp.org/wiki/First_Lessons_in_Bach_(Bach,_Johann_S.
| ..
| gjulianm wrote:
| For context, I started playing piano when I was a kid with a mix
| of classes and self-learn, tried to pick up guitar a few years
| ago and I'm now learning clarinet with a teacher.
|
| With this experience, I can say that self-learning an instrument
| is the most inefficient way to learn it, specially if you haven't
| already learned another instrument before. Don't bother comparing
| it to self-learning programming because it's a whole different
| world:
|
| - If you don't know basic music theory (notes, rhythms, basic
| chords, etc) you'll have a hard time understanding any method or
| any other resource of any kind. A teacher will usually teach you
| those concepts as you go along and help you understand them. You
| can self-learn music theory but it's not the fastest way.
|
| - As a beginner, your ear is not trained to the instrument. If
| you haven't played an instrument before, your ear won't be
| trained at all. You will sound bad and you won't know why. Having
| a teacher hear you and tell you what's going wrong will help you
| advance faster and also train your ear so you detect those
| issues.
|
| - Technique. This is one of the things that's the hardest to
| learn by yourself. You can read books and watch videos and still
| nothing beats having direct feedback from someone who knows the
| technique. You might struggle days by yourself for days to play
| some passage, then your teacher comes along and tells you how to
| do it in five minutes. And yeah, that teacher will probably make
| you do boring exercises, but let me tell you something: those
| exercises _are necessary_. I didn 't do enough exercises when I
| learned piano, and I feel that lack of technique and agility now.
| On the other hand, now my clarinet teacher insists on technical
| exercise along with practicing pieces and those exercises are
| already paying off, in the sense that I can pick up pieces
| faster. Technique is necessary, if you don't do it at the
| beginning you'll hit a wall later on, you'll need to practice
| technique anyways and it'll be worse because you will have picked
| up bad habits.
|
| - Repertoire. As a beginner in an instrument, knowing which
| pieces you can play is really hard. A good teacher will know
| pieces and will give you pieces that you like, that are up to
| your level and it a lot of cases they will actually help you
| improve with certain aspects.
|
| If you are serious about wanting to learn an instrument (as in 'I
| want to dedicate time and effort to this', not necessarily being
| professional or anything), the best option is to get a teacher.
| It's more expensive, of course, but tends to be more rewarding
| and efficient. Even if you only take a few months of classes when
| you're starting, it will give you a lot more tools to continue
| improving than if you were doing it by yourself.
|
| Also, there are no shortcuts. I've seen a lot of people who
| wanted to learn piano, and instead of starting with the basics
| they just took a song way above their level and tried to play it.
| After a year, the song still sounds bad, and they haven't
| actually learned anything that helps them playing another piece.
| Playing music is amazing, but be patient and don't be discouraged
| when it takes time.
| galaxyLogic wrote:
| That's great advice. I had two piano teachers. One of them made
| me love going to the lessons and the other made me hate to go
| there. The latter was first so I quit piano and took a few
| years break before I found the teacher who gave me inspiration.
| gjulianm wrote:
| That's the main issue with teachers. Bad teachers can really
| make you quit an instrument, same with parents forcing kids
| to go to lessons. Luckily I think here in HN most people will
| be able to choose a teacher and leave it if they don't like
| it.
| SONtraveltech wrote:
| Excellent advice. Echoes my own experience.
| [deleted]
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