[HN Gopher] Apple's longtime supplier accused of using forced la...
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Apple's longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
Author : mzs
Score : 177 points
Date : 2020-12-29 14:52 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.washingtonpost.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.washingtonpost.com)
| animal_spirits wrote:
| I have yet to see any actual evidence of forced labor in China.
| Only claims, nothing more. Americans have been fed false
| propaganda against communist USSR for decades, and I have a gut
| feeling the same is happening against communist China. Maybe it
| has to do with China's plan to collapse the US petrodollar global
| monetary system [0] and the US is trying to rouse a new Red Scare
| and push us into a second Cold War.
|
| EDIT: Okay I've found 1 source of evidence from the comments in
| this thread [1]. I wish clickbait headlines would point to these
| claims instead of claims from other journalist making claims
| based on other journalists claims.
|
| [0] https://www.lynalden.com/fraying-petrodollar-system/
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570485
| wry_discontent wrote:
| I looked into the Uighur detention story a couple weeks ago and
| found very little in terms of substance. Most sources either
| traced back to the US State Department, which obviously
| shouldn't be trusted, or Adrian Zenz, a weirdo with a religious
| (literally) obsession with destroying China. It comes across
| very much like propaganda to decrease China's world standing
| and justify increased aggression economically and politically.
| beisner wrote:
| While there probably is an element of that, hard evidence that
| might paint the Chinese government negatively in general is
| much more difficult to obtain because of information and
| communications controls.
| animal_spirits wrote:
| Agreed, I am just wary of journalist referencing other
| journalists as "evidence". But I have since found some very
| damning evidence here: https://shahit.biz/eng/ This is very
| sad to read and understand. I hope this site gets more
| attention than these articles
| throw12344112 wrote:
| Not sure why you find that piece of "evidence" particularly
| damning. Do you know anything about the author? Do you know
| his methodology? His sources? What makes him credible?
|
| From the database author himself [0]:
|
| > "we have over 10000+ documented people" was the initial
| comment. Neither boasting nor saying 100% are credible.
|
| I honestly find it both hilarious and disappointing that HN
| users are skeptical and contrarian about absolutely
| everything, except when it comes to what the US government
| and its proxies have to say about China.
|
| [0] https://twitter.com/shahitbiz/status/130655429608809676
| 9?s=2...
|
| [1] https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/1308010419512
| 98764...
| dirtyid wrote:
| Some level coerced labour is inevitable, the entire
| "vocational" training is part of broader labour/rural
| transfer programs across many provinces affecting millions
| of individuals every year, with associate recruitment
| pressures and quotas. The question has always been scale
| and severity and every piece of solid data (i.e. GIS
| analysis) is demonstrating the scale and severity is much
| smaller than previous claims by western analysis funded by
| parties subservient to foreign policy. Which is exactly why
| database like shahbits won't get any attention when they
| "only" catalogue 12,000 victims, it was 6,000 at the
| beginning of the year. Granted this is just a subset of
| total interned - the real number is greater than China will
| admit and less than western manufactured consent is trying
| to sell, but 10s of thousands is not a remotely actionable
| amount of victims for geopolitics. Hence fabricated
| narratives by interest funded NGOs of millions of victim to
| rationalize sanctions, cherry picked data points and
| uncorroborated atrocity propaganda. XJ is horrible, but not
| horrible enough.
| samfisher83 wrote:
| Apple will just claim its suppliers fault. That is why companies
| outsource everything. That way there is plausible deniability.
| judge2020 wrote:
| It's the issue with using China manufacturing at all, although,
| even if Apple moved production to the US, chances are they'd
| still be facing forced labor allegations since they'd still
| need to get shipments from China for parts that can't be made
| in the US.
| hobs wrote:
| And then they'd actually have a foot to stand on in terms of
| defending their position.
| judge2020 wrote:
| I don't think so. Even if you just get shipments for the
| rare earth materials that aren't present in first-world
| American countries, Apple would need to do the same supply
| chain audits all the way from shipment to mining, and
| they'd still be accused of using slave labor since
| apparently these audits don't work and using China at all
| introduces slave labor into your supply chain.
|
| For now it still makes sense to do last-leg manufacturing
| in China since moving to the US has no benefits from a PR
| standpoint (due to the reasons above) and has huge
| negatives with needing to import the raw materials instead
| of just shipping the final product from China -> Alaska ->
| Continental US customers.
| sthnblllII wrote:
| >no benefits from a PR standpoint
|
| Maybe not in your circles, but Americans are sick of
| everything being made in China and Apple could afford to
| do it here if there were public pressure for them to do
| so.
| baybal2 wrote:
| Have anybody noticed how this topic mysterious lost few hundred
| points, sank to second page, and then came back to front?
|
| There is a noticable tendency for any China related topics,
| whether good, or bad to mysteriously disappear from the front
| page right at the start of the workday Pacific time, and after
| lunch hours.
| dang wrote:
| There is a noticeable tendency for people with strong feelings
| on this topic to imagine wild narratives about what they think
| they're seeing on HN. In fact, it's an extremely noticeable
| tendency.
|
| This was a mundane case of merging threads, which is bog
| standard HN moderation:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25574136
|
| I could have just changed the URL on the other one, but
| preferred to reward the submitter who actually posted the story
| first _and_ with the original article, in keeping with the site
| guidelines.
| DevKoala wrote:
| I can attest to that. Any critic of the CCP tends to sink out
| of the first page in a matter of minutes. It looks like a
| concerted effort.
| boruto wrote:
| I seriously do not think that is the case.
|
| I don't know if everyone is paranoid or I am wrong.
| [deleted]
| mgh2 wrote:
| Yes, it looked like censorship/manipulation, but HN explained
| it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570247
|
| I suspect a bias towards Apple though...
|
| Note: I highly appreciate the work of the moderators in keeping
| HN objective, but it is not perfect- humans are naturally
| biased so this is to be expected...
| Causality1 wrote:
| Pay attention for a while and you'll notice there's quite a
| list of topics and positions that are verboten,either because
| they have a personal army who care about them or there's a
| finger on the scale.
|
| For example, lightly and generally criticizing China will get
| you a lot of upvotes. Criticizing China in specific ways and
| proposing strategies of action will get your comment down voted
| and flagged.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| It's part of the HN guidelines to avoid political topics:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| I would imagine Apple et al get a pass since they are strong
| interests of the audience here. Off-Topic:
| Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless
| they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon.
| killion wrote:
| Does HN have to use the same Apple-baiting headline as The
| Washington Post? Lens Technology sells to all mobile phone
| makers. They are a massive public company with many customers...
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/business/international/ho...
| russli1993 wrote:
| Let me get this straight, seems like if a company uses Uyghur
| workers they get accused of "forced labor". Then solution is
| easy, lets not hire any Uyghur people. No employment Ugyhur
| people. Then Uyghur people know what happens, they don't have
| income, they stay poor. This is what these people who accuses of
| Uyghur "forced labor" want? China may not have the best labor
| laws. But this is 2020, at will employment, employment with pay,
| is common sense and the absolute basic basic fact supported by
| law. If you don't like the place you work for, if you don't want
| to go out of the province to work, no one, not the police, not
| the company, will throw you in jail. This is not slave labor.
| Slaving is just no socially and legally acceptable in China I
| don't see it ever be possible.
|
| And let me be fully honest. Some local governments do tie special
| governmental poverty aids with participation in work programs. As
| in, you don't get certain poverty related aids if you are a able
| employable person but refuses to participate in a work placement
| program. But these people will still get standard social program,
| such as a basic state health insurance. And if the person is non-
| employable, for example, disabled, elderly, under working age,
| these don't apply.
|
| Another possible situation is, a person is work-able, but has no
| job and has a income level below the absolute poverty standard.
| Recently the government has a target goal to reduce absolute
| poverty rates, and the way they do that is try to get every
| employable person a job so they have income. This transfer work
| placement is one of the programs. The government work with
| companies to create work opportunities and get people placed in
| them. Some people will refuse work just because they don't want
| to. And the government has KPIs and targets to reduce out of work
| people has much as possible. So government would nag people to
| join work. And the aforementioned tying these special poverty
| aids with participation in work placement. But there is no legal
| consequence for refuses. No one will be able to place you in a
| jail.
|
| So if you say this government is coercion and "forcing" people to
| work this way, you can say that. But on the other hand, the idea
| is that people should make a living to support themselves. The
| government aids is partially interested in encouraging people to
| make a living on their own terms. A Chinese saying goes "Shou Ren
| Yi Yu Bu Ru Shou Ren Yi Yu ".
|
| But now, various interest groups, NGOs and countries (US etc) are
| now painting these companies and China as a country as using
| forced labor. They are destroying public image, and economically
| sanctioning. A company could provide jobs for Ugyhur people. And
| frankly, some goes out of their way to do so because there are so
| many other people in China these companies could employ. China's
| job market is very competitive. And now they might lose their
| business and go bankrupt. And let me tell you that a lot of Han
| people look at this and think is special preferential treatment
| towards Ugyhurs. They think why do I not get these work placement
| programs.
|
| I honestly feel this pretty twisted. Yes, there are bad stories
| in poverty reduction efforts the Chinese government is doing
| right now. Some local governments use illegal tactics. But the
| overarching goal is still positive. We as a society could leave
| people under absolute poverty to feed for themselves, let them
| stay at absolute bottom of society. But now, we set up and are
| doing something about it. At least we don't just talk the talk,
| but actually taking concrete actions. Yet, people outside of
| China is saying this is a "sin". And use this as an reason to
| punish China and the people living in the country to death.
|
| And how interesting this comes at a time when various countries
| and interest groups is trying to suppress China's economic
| growth, how limit China's economy is the mainstream tone in the
| media. I don't get how actively seeking to destroy a country's
| economy is moral, and how no one comes out and say "hey, this is
| not right". Economy is prosperity, is people's livelihoods, is
| people's well being, is people's ability to enjoy life. Painting
| an economy as a target and looking for all kinds of tools to
| destroy it is against all of the above. I always believed people
| want the best for others, people want others to live a happy,
| prosperous live. But the foreign policy of the US for the past 2
| years, things US political leaders said, media outlet around the
| world said, destroyed that belief. Hatred is really alive and
| well in this world. Living breathing people can have so much
| hatred in them. Some people just want to see others suffer, burn
| and dead. And some of these people actually hold devastating
| amount of power that can shape the very lives of people, even if
| they are small, ordinary people who live literally on the other
| side of the planet.
| ilaksh wrote:
| That human rights situation in China is horrible. But I am
| worries things like that could actually be used to justify WWIII.
| Which would be even more horrible.
| Dumblydorr wrote:
| Does Apple care more about perceptions of privacy or perceptions
| of using slave labor?
| sthnblllII wrote:
| If they just made their computers in the US like they used to
| they could have both, but that would mean giving up the
| lucrative arrangement of only paying Chinese wages but charging
| US prices.
| criddell wrote:
| When you are buying a phone or computer, which do you put
| first?
| claydavisss wrote:
| You aren't going to stop buying Apple products. Even if they were
| executing workers on the factory floor, you would still pre-order
| every iPhone, and sit smugly in a coffee shop reading Jacobin on
| your iPad.
| MaxHoppersGhost wrote:
| I hate how American (and European) companies will virtue signal
| with commercials and campaigns (Apple and Nike come to mind)
| toting their ESG credentials but then will be doing stuff like
| this. People fall for it and it really pisses me off. Welcome to
| marketing.
|
| It's also crazy to me that China isn't facing more severe
| backlash for the treatment of the Uyghurs. It's reprehensible and
| disgusting.
| thepasswordis wrote:
| The absolute most egregious example of this (imo) is Colin
| Kaepernick.
|
| He is literally paid by _slavers_. He is a multi-millionaire
| off of the profits of slave labor. It 's disgusting that Nike
| is somehow putting forth a "woke" face _while literally using
| slaves to build their products_.
|
| Slavery is not woke. And Colin Kaepernick is a particular sort
| of disgusting that he is happy to accept millions of dollars
| from slavers, while also shaming people who don't adhere to
| some hypocritical fight for racial justice, which he himself
| does not adhere to, and is in fact in on the profits of.
| MaxHoppersGhost wrote:
| I was going to mention Kaepernick but decided not to to avoid
| the knee jerk downvotes. I agree but wouldn't have used such
| strong language. It's such a ridiculous double standard and I
| have friends that eat up the Kaerpernick marketing without
| thinking about it. I agree with Kaepernick's message but the
| fact that Nike is backing him with that message is such a
| joke.
| Cyph0n wrote:
| Sounds like the kneeling really got to some people!
| Siira wrote:
| Rather than people falling for it, they have pretty much the
| same incentives as the corporations. They like virtue
| signaling, when its costs are negligible and the externalities
| fall on others, but they don't sacrifice cheap goods for some
| pretty lies.
| edoceo wrote:
| ESG == Environmental, Social and Corp Governance
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental,_social_and_co...
| herbst wrote:
| The uyghurs thing was mostly a us media thing that plaid into
| trumps hands. There was barely if any media interest here in
| europe. Personally i have no opinion but from here it looked
| more like a obvious us political tactic than an actual huge
| issue. I could be totally wrong tho, but this sentiment may
| explains why there was no real reaction ot was basically the
| wrong person talking about it.
| MaxHoppersGhost wrote:
| Uyghurs is a bipartisan issue not just a Trump thing
| (although it does play to his hand). Biden mentioned it a few
| times and I think even once in a debate.
| bdz wrote:
| >I hate how American (and European) companies will virtue
| signal with commercials and campaigns (Apple and Nike come to
| mind) toting their ESG credentials but then will be doing stuff
| like this
|
| My favorite https://i.kym-
| cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/034/229/Bethe...
|
| Companies don't care though but consumers also have to realize
| they are not your friends either
| jedberg wrote:
| What exactly did Apple do? The hired a contractor, and they
| just found out that contractor is using slave labor, so now
| they are investigating. The last time they found out a
| contractor was using slave labor, they severed the
| relationship.
|
| I'm not sure what else you'd expect them to do exactly.
| MaxHoppersGhost wrote:
| I would expect one of the largest and most powerful companies
| in the world that is always virtue signaling to have their
| supply chain 100% slave free. That is not a big ask.
| jedberg wrote:
| It's a pretty big ask actually. They have 1000s of
| suppliers. I'm sure their vetting process is pretty
| thorough already, and then they act swiftly when they find
| out something was missed. Feel reasonable to me.
| 9HZZRfNlpR wrote:
| Instead of rambling about social justice better start vet
| your suppliers. People think Facebook should be
| responsible and vet what billions of people write online
| but somehow Apple the wealthiest company can't vet their
| damn supply chain? It has really come to this that these
| affluent privileged Silicon Valley tech bros rather have
| some 90 year old arrested for not wearing a mask while
| rambling about it on Twitter than have Apple vet their
| God damn suppliers.
| Jommi wrote:
| What other way would you suggest companies could link
| shareholder incentives and ethics?
|
| Hitting ESG metrics / recieving ESG credentials is a way for
| companies to benefit from doing the right thing.
| MaxHoppersGhost wrote:
| I am a proponent of ESG but (to me at least) it doesn't
| appear there is a standardized method of calculation for
| metrics and things like forced labor (Nike, Apple) or
| pandering to a govt by censoring (NBA, Google) aren't being
| captured. I could be off as I haven't studied it that much.
| Everyone can agree what GAAP net income is but calculating
| ESG metrics is much more subjective.
| findthewords wrote:
| Ethical behaviour cannot be measured. Companies are still
| maximising shareholder value. They are doing it by gaming ESG
| metrics. Nothing has changed.
| Jommi wrote:
| I think it can be approximated. And that's better than
| nothing. Would you agree?
| TheKarateKid wrote:
| It's amazing how Apple is able to maintain and enforce such
| strict quality and secrecy amongst their suppliers, yet they
| seem to fail often when it comes to labor and human rights
| violations.
|
| I don't think it's a coincidence. There's a clear lack of
| effort here, or at least not on par with their other ones.
| jkestner wrote:
| As long as I have to buy products built on human rights
| violations, I wish someone could sell me the equivalent of carbon
| offset credits.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| You can do that. There are charities that literally buy slaves
| in order to free them.
|
| Be aware, though, that there are people who criticize such
| practices as 1) accepting and giving legitimacy to the concept
| of slavery, and 2) increasing the demand, which tempts others
| to find ways to increase the supply. Personally, I don't find
| the first argument convincing. The second I could see being a
| legitimate concern.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/12/world/un-criticism-angers...
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jan/28/angeliquechris...
| jkestner wrote:
| I can understand that. I was thinking more along the lines of
| helping people break out of the conditions that force them
| into terrible work environments, though of course the nature
| of that depends on the country. Could be anything from direct
| cash payments to funding education or groups working to
| change policy. I just want to be able to pay for all the
| externalities, but it's extremely hard to know where the
| issues are let alone the people equipped to address them, for
| each item.
| nobodyandproud wrote:
| I've minimized my consumption of meat over the years, because the
| way we treat animals in the factory farms is too cruel.
|
| It's not perfect, because I eat dairy and eggs which introduce
| their own set of cruelty.
|
| Likewise, I'm severely disappointed by Apple. I've switched from
| Android to iPhone because I like Apple's stance on privacy.
|
| I'm extremely bothered that Apple with its resource is not
| lobbying to change the playing field and make it expensive to use
| slave labor.
|
| I get that they cannot do it today, but what excuse is there to
| not play the long game?
| jiofih wrote:
| What evidence of foul play have you seen from Apple
| specifically? The majority of suppliers for eg, Fairphone is
| also in China, and Apple has the most comprehensive
| transparency reports and controls of them all.
| cutemonster wrote:
| Maybe you'd be interested in a Fairphone
|
| Another vegetarian here btw; I also didn't go all the way to
| becoming a vegan
| threeseed wrote:
| How is Fairphone any better than Apple on this issue ?
|
| They make use of third party Chinese suppliers who they
| haven't audited.
| nobodyandproud wrote:
| When Arstechnica reviewed it last year, it was only available
| in Europe.
|
| I'll keep a lookout.
|
| Edit: It's manufactured in China, so there's still a risk and
| it's still supporting an authoritarian government.
| randmeerkat wrote:
| Or buy the Librem 5 USA model, made in the USA.
| https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/
| colejohnson66 wrote:
| I think the _over double_ price tag (compared to the
| other model) should show how much the US has benefited
| from globalization (at other's expense). Most consumers
| prefer cheaper things. What Purism is doing is very
| noble, but it's not going to move any mountains. We need
| governmental regulation for that.
| prox wrote:
| https://www.wired.co.uk/article/tutorial-raspberry-pi-
| smartp...
|
| Build your own smartphone!
| ogre_codes wrote:
| A huge percentage of consumer electronics--including
| smartphones--are manufactured by a small number of often
| questionable companies. Microsoft, Dell, HP, Lenovo, all have
| similar supply chains and manufacturing.
|
| I'm not entirely sure what a good way to pick an "ethical"
| manufacturer is. One thing I like about Apple is they are
| somewhat transparent and at least seem to audit their supply
| chain.
|
| It would be nice if instead of doing pieces like this, these
| organizations would give a list of manufacturers they recommend
| and why.
| nabla9 wrote:
| It's even worse. Apple actively lobbies against bills that try to
| prevent this.
|
| Apple lobbies against Uighur forced labour bill
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-u...
| [deleted]
| offtop5 wrote:
| To be fair. https://www.theguardian.com/us-
| news/2020/sep/01/california-i...
| bdcravens wrote:
| Not limited to Apple
|
| "In all, ASPI's research has identified 82 foreign and Chinese
| companies potentially directly or indirectly benefiting from the
| use of Uyghur workers outside Xinjiang through abusive labour
| transfer programs as recently as 2019: Abercrombie & Fitch, Acer,
| Adidas, Alstom, Amazon, Apple, ASUS, BAIC Motor, Bestway, BMW,
| Bombardier, Bosch, BYD, Calvin Klein, Candy, Carter's, Cerruti
| 1881, Changan Automobile, Cisco, CRRC, Dell, Electrolux, Fila,
| Founder Group, GAC Group (automobiles), Gap, Geely Auto, General
| Motors, Google, Goertek, H&M, Haier, Hart Schaffner Marx,
| Hisense, Hitachi, HP, HTC, Huawei, iFlyTek, Jack & Jones, Jaguar,
| Japan Display Inc., L.L.Bean, Lacoste, Land Rover, Lenovo, LG,
| Li-Ning, Mayor, Meizu, Mercedes-Benz, MG, Microsoft, Mitsubishi,
| Mitsumi, Nike, Nintendo, Nokia, Oculus, Oppo, Panasonic, Polo
| Ralph Lauren, Puma, SAIC Motor, Samsung, SGMW, Sharp, Siemens,
| Skechers, Sony, TDK, Tommy Hilfiger, Toshiba, Tsinghua Tongfang,
| Uniqlo, Victoria's Secret, Vivo, Volkswagen, Xiaomi, Zara, Zegna,
| ZTE."
|
| https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghurs-sale
| arminiusreturns wrote:
| To the tune of Childish Gambinos "This is America": _This is
| globalism_
|
| This was always the point of offloading to other countries. Less
| regulations, lower wages, less powerful workers and workers
| unions, and higher profit margins. Ross Perot was right but
| nobody listened to him. Apple isnt unique, and this isnt the
| first time. Its systemic.
|
| So tired of the trope of accusing anybody critical of globalism
| of being an isolationist. Protectionism is a valid and needed (to
| a certain degree) approach for all nation states, ours included.
| matsemann wrote:
| Instead of blaming globalism, maybe one should make companies
| responsible for their external effects? As in, lawfully
| responsible, to be tried as if they did it themselves. Like
| pollution, using other companies to do their unethical biddings
| etc (child or slave labor for instance).
| staunch wrote:
| Why not just ban outsourcing to countries with poor labor
| laws? The commonly stated purpose of the U.S. outsourcing to
| China was to 1. help lift it out of poverty and 2. bring it
| democracy through capitalism.
|
| Goal #1 has been largely achieved and Goal #2 has been an
| epic failure. The U.S. should completely phase out
| outsourcing to China over the next decade. This would drive a
| huge acceleration of automated manufacturing in the U.S.
| which is the future anyway.
|
| Companies like Apple could move all manufacturing to the U.S.
| over a decade if they wanted to. They have the money and the
| technology. But they're currently addicted to cheap (and
| unethical) labor. They're unlikely quit on their own, as long
| as U.S. law enables their addiction.
| valuearb wrote:
| Sounds like a great way to crush third world countries
| deeper into poverty. I love it!
| Siira wrote:
| I agree, but globalism has on the whole improved the human
| condition by a lot. The vast majority of people aren't middle-
| class citizens of developed countries. Like everything, balance
| is key.
| koonsolo wrote:
| Indeed. Without the outsourcing, they would still be in those
| same conditions, but earning less. Now there is external
| money coming into their economy.
| onethought wrote:
| It also spreads wealth. China lifted more people out of poverty
| than any nation in history, because of globalisation.
|
| Are you saying poverty is less important than workers rights?
|
| Economies develop. This is part of it. You've just had a
| "protectionist" President, US is worse off by almost every
| measure... as a counter example to your "protectionism is
| needed"
| gogopuppygogo wrote:
| Real wages actually went up for Americans for the first time
| in 40 years during the last four years but yeah worse off...
| onethought wrote:
| Citation, with inflation adjustments. Please provide.
|
| Why is the US passing stimulus packages if it's going so
| well?
|
| (To further my point was that growth a hang over from the
| globalist President? Or a result of the protectionist one?
| Did it continue throughout the 4 years? I already know the
| answer, but just pointing out the flaw in your point for
| you so you don't need to find it)
| spoonjim wrote:
| I don't vote for a president to achieve global fairness. I
| vote for one who will make my life the best. If that's not
| great for Chinese peasants that's not the US President's
| problem. China should develop its economy, but the US should
| not have allowed its corporations to have given China such a
| huge leg up in doing so.
| onethought wrote:
| I'm not convinced that voting for overall fairness (global,
| national, state, community) is opposed to making your life
| the best.
|
| Those Chinese peasants will become the US problem (see the
| rise of China in the last 50 years).
|
| Those Chinese corporations are what made "your life the
| best" with your cheap cars, electronics.
|
| Your point sounds like you want to have your cake and eat
| it.
| jack_h wrote:
| > You've just had a "protectionist" President, US is worse
| off by almost every measure...
|
| Could we get some citations to back this up? It seems too
| soon to even evaluate all of the effects of the (soon to be)
| previous administrations policies.
|
| But as a discussion point, Trump moved to end the postal
| subsidies China enjoyed which made it cheaper for us to have
| something shipped from there than to buy locally. How does
| this hurt the US?
| onethought wrote:
| That's a single policy. Perhaps that's a good one?
|
| Imagine a world where China and the U.S. were on better
| terms, start of the health crisis China helped provide huge
| amounts Of PPE required. Drs and epidemiologists from China
| with experience could have helped drs in the US. Instead
| they were coming off the back of a trade war over soy beans
| and hiding information from each other.
|
| Globalisation has effects that expand beyond the economy.
|
| As for citations: the US has just passed the second,
| largest stimulus package in its history beating or the
| first from a couple of months back. Are we're ignoring this
| gorilla so much that people need citations?
| ksk wrote:
| >You've just had a "protectionist" President, US is worse off
| by almost every measure... as a counter example to your
| "protectionism is needed"
|
| That is not a counter-example to anything AFAICT. We didn't
| have a 'protectionist' President. We had an incompetent
| President, who faked to be a protectionist.
|
| A real data point would be this:
|
| https://imgur.com/a/q3GUEzc
|
| The US had a decent economy when we had high import duties.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Just so that we're on the same page, you're claiming that
| virtual slave prisoners are being lifted out of poverty
| through forced labor, correct?
| anoraca wrote:
| That's a straw man. They're saying that hundreds of
| millions of Chinese people (and others around the world)
| have risen out of poverty because of globalism. You're only
| giving credit for the negative impacts of globalism, and in
| kind of a duplicitous manner.
| arzt wrote:
| I am not sure I understand this argument. The article
| states the "laborers" in question are given a choice as
| follows: submit to unpaid forced labor else go to a CCP
| reeducation camp. Nowhere is it stated those subjected to
| this choice have the opportunity to take advantage of
| rising living standards.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| If the virtual slaves aren't being made wealthy from
| their forced labor, then who is and why should we support
| them?
| onethought wrote:
| I agree "forced work" or slavery should be stopped. But go
| and visit these factories in China... the people are their
| voluntarily... because their alternative is worse than
| those conditions.
|
| Like I said economies develop, China should improve its
| workers rights laws, and slowly it has and will.
|
| We should avoid and remove slavery. Agree.
|
| But using developing countries as an example of why
| developed countries should be more protectionist at exactly
| the point in time where the US tried that and lost out on
| almost every front is insane and disconnected from reality
| duskcloudxu wrote:
| Mostly agree but highly doubt if China would change the
| worker rights laws. Actually they do not need change
| since they already got a good one (including 40 hour work
| week and overtime pay), but it's rarely enforced by local
| governments.
| koonsolo wrote:
| Isn't it just 1 parameter: cheaper? This kind of work is
| outsourcing anyway. So I think all the things you mention there
| have no impact, since it all wouldn't matter when the price
| would be the same.
| itsgrimetime wrote:
| I think "this is capitalism/liberalism" is a better way to call
| it out.
|
| I am tired of the globalism/isolationism dichotomy that gets
| thrown around too, but there are good reasons to criticize
| attributing all of these problems to globalism. For one,
| "globalism" is commonly used as a racist dog whistle, and is a
| popular antisemitic conspiratorial buzzword. Second, calling
| out globalism as the root of the problem leaves out the fact
| that it's capitalism that drives the need for globalism, not
| globalism existing just for the sake of globalism.
| amelius wrote:
| Even if it's systemic, you could at least try to do something
| about it if you're one of the big guys.
|
| This is what I dislike most about Apple: they're trying to be a
| leader, but are not acting like one.
| njanirudh wrote:
| Apple is less of a leader and more of a mafia godfather
| Judgmentality wrote:
| > This is what I dislike most about Apple: they're trying to
| be a leader, but are not acting like one.
|
| How is Apple trying to be a leader in anything besides
| profits?
| Fezzik wrote:
| Apple absolutely attempts to present itself as a
| morally/ethically superior company. See, for example, from
| just 7 months ago: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/31/apple-
| ceo-tim-cook-email-to-...
|
| Or, re the environment, from Apple's current website:
| https://www.apple.com/environment/
|
| You can find all sorts of similar posturing on a number of
| topics from Apple.
| turminal wrote:
| > Or, re the environment, from Apple's current website:
| https://www.apple.com/environment/
|
| Someone should calculate how much energy an iPhone uses
| for rendering that page (or any other on their website).
| I bet reducing that would make a difference
| environmentally.
| colejohnson66 wrote:
| Probably not a lot. Your phone uses a dollar or two in
| electricity per _year_ (assuming average US prices). The
| big energy waster is cars.
| chongli wrote:
| Why should we consider any moral stance, by any for-
| profit corporation, as anything other than marketing?
|
| The real problem, as I see it, is that individuals see
| their relationships to corporations as anything other
| than transactional. Strange things happen when people
| adopt a company's marketing effort into their personal
| identity.
|
| Instead, we should be looking at corporations objectively
| and deciding whether their incentives align with our own.
| Keep our identities with other individuals, not with
| corporations and branding.
| threeseed wrote:
| > This is what I dislike most about Apple: they're trying to
| be a leader, but are not acting like one.
|
| Apple has done far more than any tech company to take
| ownership of their supply chain.
| lsiebert wrote:
| For people discussing the difference between forced labor and
| slavery, this document from the UN's office of the high
| commisioner on human rights, tracing the history of such terms in
| international law, may be helpful.
|
| https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publications/slaveryen.pdf
| colpabar wrote:
| It's crazy the majority of this thread is arguing semantics.
| derangedHorse wrote:
| It is ridiculous that it's being argued, but grouping
| different kinds of human suffering together does seem like it
| could be a sensitive topic for those that very much see one
| kind of suffering worse than the other. 'daenz' made the
| mistake of attempting to group all acts of 'slavery' into
| equally heinous acts that should be prioritized on all fronts
| in an effort to rally sentiment towards the cause.
|
| While I agree that this issue should be brought to the
| forefront of the 1st world public, grouping/comparing these
| types of things always lead to a misdirection of discussion
| to semantics in my opinion and comments for stories like
| these should be focused on educating people more on the
| problem and brainstorming feasible ways the community can
| fight against it.
| [deleted]
| christophilus wrote:
| I've decided to leave the Apple ecosystem in 2021. But the
| problem is not isolated to Apple. In fact, I'd be surprised if
| other, cheaper products aren't quite a bit worse.
|
| Is there an electronics company that does a better job? (That's
| not a rhetorical question.)
| fsflover wrote:
| There is also Librem 5 USA, but it's $2k:
| https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/.
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| It's not really made in the US is more that they inspect the
| parts and clip them together in the US and that costs them
| $1000 for some reason.
| fsflover wrote:
| Did you read the link? It's manufactured in the US. The
| other version of Librem 5 which is made in China and
| assembled in US costs $800:
| https://puri.sm/products/librem-5.
| [deleted]
| matwood wrote:
| Apple is one of the better ones in a sea of really bad. It's a
| low bar and certainly doesn't mean Apple is perfect. There
| might be some boutique phone makers who claim to be better like
| Librem or Fairphone, but because they have fewer resources than
| the big players it's much harder for them to really know.
|
| And if you dig into the mining side of the rare earths, worker
| conditions drop quickly.
| ogre_codes wrote:
| This is the big problem. Few of these companies have the
| resources to verify their supply chain is free of abuse. The
| smaller companies likely have even less control over their
| supply chain.
| [deleted]
| natecham wrote:
| Would you consider only buying a used/refurbished
| phone/computer? Obviously it's not scalable to the masses, but
| not putting any money in Apple's pocket directly
| christophilus wrote:
| I only buy used phones. But I rarely buy used computers /
| monitors. Those are my bread and butter, so reliability
| matters.
| natecham wrote:
| Yea understandable, I've had great experiences with
| refurbished MacBooks for what it's worth
| Siira wrote:
| One way to punish them is to simply buy less. Upgrading
| electronics is usually superfluous.
| herbst wrote:
| Honestly i never felt the ecosystem to be that great, its just
| the same shit others are doing in a walled garden way. I am
| sure you will be fine finding your own stack
| delecti wrote:
| Fairphone is your best bet with smartphones, but I'm not sure
| if there's similarly ethically produced hardware of other
| types.
| simonh wrote:
| Fairphone have dozens of suppliers in China, some of them
| indirect, and they say in their own literature they can't
| directly vouch for every company in their supply chain.
|
| They're in exactly the same boat as Apple. IMHO this is about
| China, not any one company.
| fsflover wrote:
| Lack of perfection does not mean you should give up
| everything.
| simonh wrote:
| Oh absolutely, they work very hard on this and deserver a
| lot of credit for it, but then so do Apple. They have
| some of the strictest policies and most thorough
| inspections in the industry and this still keeps
| happening to them.
| boudin wrote:
| I don't think it's comparable no. The effort put by
| Fairphone to build an ethical tech company is not
| comparable with what apple have been doing. There's a lot
| of information on their website and it's worth to have a
| look: https://www.fairphone.com/en/impact
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| I mean, Apple also has a lot of information on their
| website and it's also worth looking at:
| https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/
|
| They also have annual reports for the past few years just
| about this.
| simonh wrote:
| And Apple are also the highest rated tech company by
| Greenpeace for environmental issues after Fairphone.
| fsflover wrote:
| That's quite strange given what they have been doing with
| repair:
|
| http://www.ibtimes.com/apple-airpods-repair-recycling-
| imposs...
|
| https://www.iphoneincanada.ca/news/apple-sues-canadian-
| recyc...
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18144489
| simonh wrote:
| Repair is only a factor because it contributes to device
| longevity, but iPhones have the longest average device
| lifetimes in the industry by a long way. In theory they
| could make it even longer but it's a relatively marginal
| issue in environmental terms. I agree there are other
| reasons that make it desirable as well and every little
| helps, but the fact remains iPhones have industry leading
| overall environmental impact.
|
| "..researchers found that brand, an intangible property,
| is more important than repairability or memory size in
| extending the life of a product."[0]
|
| The article found that Apple phones last on average a
| year longer than Samsung's.
|
| [0]https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/18101614
| 2434.h...
|
| Another estimate puts Apple device lifespans at 4 years 3
| months.[1]
|
| [1]https://www.zdnet.com/article/iphone-ipad-mac-heres-
| how-long...
|
| The average for all smartphones is estimated as from 2 to
| 3 years, but bear in mind that includes many Apple
| devices, so non Apple devices must average the low end of
| that.[2]
|
| [2]https://www.coolblue.nl/en/advice/lifespan-
| smartphone.html
| fsflover wrote:
| > but iPhones have the longest average device lifetimes
| in the industry by a long way
|
| After iPhones are not supported anymore they turn into
| bricks. This typically happens in 5 years, which is not
| too bad, but it's far from being perfect. Why should a
| smartphone be supported for much shorter than laptops?
| Remember: _reduce, reuse, recycle_ , in this order.
|
| Librem 5 GNU/Linux phone has a _lifetime_ support with
| updates.
| simonh wrote:
| > After iPhones are not supported anymore they turn into
| bricks.
|
| Where on Earth do you get that from? My iPhone 3GS could
| still connect to the App Store after 7 years. My wife's
| iPhone 6 from 2014 just got a patch in November.
|
| Look, I'm not going to assume bad faith, maybe you really
| believe this or thought it seemed true to you. When your
| preconceptions turn out to be this dramatically contrary
| to the actual facts, I seriously suggest you take a look
| at what it is about those preconceptions that is leading
| you so far away from reality.
|
| I see comments like this all the time. Apple devices have
| built in redundancy, yet in fact they have industry
| leading device support and lifetimes. Apple is an arch
| polluter, yet over here in reality they have the highest
| environmental rating from Greenpeace of any major
| smartphone vendor. Where do people like you get this
| stuff, and why? What is it that's motivating you to say
| these things that are so clearly wrong and we easily
| disproved?
| fsflover wrote:
| > but there's nothing that will brick them
|
| You simply should not use a smartphone without security
| updates. It's as good as a brick in this case. (Or maybe
| never use Internet and Bluetooth on it).
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| Apple has official repair locations all over the planet
| and they stock parts long after products are
| discontinued. Yes it kinda sucks that they killed third
| party repair but having an official location with
| official parts is actually more useful than being able to
| do it yourself but not being able to get parts.
|
| For my pixel 2, while there were no technical
| restrictions preventing me from replacing the broken
| camera, the screen was glued in in a way making it very
| difficult to open without smashing. There were also no
| places to buy the camera other than what seemed to be
| cameras stripped out of broken/stolen pixel 2s.
| fsflover wrote:
| > while there were no technical restrictions preventing
| me from replacing the broken camera, the screen was glued
| in in a way making it very difficult to open without
| smashing.
|
| You just presented a technical restriction, didn't you?
|
| > but having an official location with official parts is
| actually more useful than being able to do it yourself
| but not being able to get parts.
|
| I disagree. This is not so much about DIY-repairs, but
| about a free market for third-party repairs, without
| which Apple can force people to pay as much as they want.
| corty wrote:
| Fairphone is also about being fair to its user, e.g. with
| available spare parts.
| hertzrat wrote:
| How's the privacy on a fairphone? The same as regular
| android?
| npteljes wrote:
| They ship regular Android, with bootloader locked, although
| they provide instructions on how to unlock.
| fsflover wrote:
| You can buy Fairphone without any Google stuff:
| https://esolutions.shop/shop/e-os-fairphone-3/.
| alltakendamned wrote:
| There's the fairphone
|
| https://www.fairphone.com/en/
| fhrow4484 wrote:
| Even if a phone is made 100% in US or Europe, the raw materials
| for it like Cobalt is probably not immune to other types of
| human rights abuse: https://www.theguardian.com/global-
| development/2019/dec/16/a...
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/oct/12/p...
| christophilus wrote:
| Sadly true. Years ago, I watched a brutal documentary on a
| mine where the life expectancy of the workers was insanely
| short. Their primary industrial clients were electronics
| manufacturers. I don't know what I can do, though, as
| programming is my living.
|
| I like the suggestion of always buying used goods. But
| obviously, a secondary market still encourages the primary
| market. It's not a perfect solution.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| Just take care of what you own and don't needlessly buy
| additional electronics.
| whiddershins wrote:
| I flagged this article and I really would urge everyone to
| actually read it before commenting.
|
| I am very _very_ concerned about China's disregard for human
| rights, and I believe continuing to do business with CCP
| controlled companies is immoral.
|
| That said, this is unsubstantiated accusations against Apple,
| which Apple directly contradicts. I believe Apple has a lot of
| leverage and resources and probably doesn't want to do business
| with anyone who will make them look bad.
|
| I feel very skeptical of this article.
| j2bax wrote:
| I feel like many of the posts here are just emotions based on
| the title alone. Have we devolved into Facebook meme rage
| territory on HN as well?
| [deleted]
| mzs wrote:
| FWIW paragraphs 4-6 are those denials and Xinhua has just
| deleted the article with the photos of people (one with a non-
| Han name) traveling to to Lens:
| http://www.xj.xinhuanet.com/2020-02/24/c_1125615994.htm
| not_knuth wrote:
| I second this.
|
| The Washington Post usually has quality content, but this one
| is disappointing. If you look at the author's history of
| articles, it's one post bashing Apple after the other (looks
| like there is an audience for it).
|
| I really don't like Apple, but I like misrepresented facts a
| lot less.
| [deleted]
| akritrime wrote:
| Recently, Apple's supplier, Wistron faced revolt after treating
| workers unfairly here in India. And India is not really the most
| shining example of protecting our workers from unfair and harsh
| working conditions. So, if such treatments don't fly here, I
| don't think they will fly anywhere else. The kind of labor
| expectation that these companies have after their stints in China
| is ethically incompatible with most other countries. So, I can't
| see the condition improving in the near future, companies will
| continue chasing profits at all cost and China will remain the
| most fertile ground to do that.
| threeseed wrote:
| Note that immediately after this become public, Apple put
| Wistron on probation refusing to award them any more work and
| requiring them to resolve the issues.
|
| Governments really need to do the heavy lifting though because
| apart from refusing to hand over money/work they are very
| limited in what they can do.
| gthtjtkt wrote:
| > immediately after this become public, Apple put Wistron on
| probation
|
| That's far too late and at that point they had no choice.
| They deserve no credit for doing it.
| legulere wrote:
| As long as companies Apple are not legally responsible for their
| supply chain in front of developed countries' courts nothing will
| change. In Switzerland a law that would have changed this was
| recently rejected. Hopefully another country makes the first
| step.
| darig wrote:
| The USA still allows prison slave labor, so good luck with
| that.
|
| Examples: [1] Whole Foods - This organic
| supermarket buys artisan cheeses and fishes from companies that
| employ inmates. McDonald's - Certain McDonald
| store items such as cutlery and containers were made in prison.
| Prisoners also sew their employee uniforms, and they only make
| a few cents an hour from it. Target - Since the
| early 2000s, Target has relied on suppliers that are known to
| use prison labor. IBM - Apparently, inmates from
| Lockhart Prison in Texas manufacture this tech giant's circuit
| boards. Texas Instruments - Like IBM, their
| circuit boards are also made by prisoners. They even got a new
| factory assembly room specially made for inmate laborers.
| Boeing - A subcontractor of Boeing was found to have used
| inmates to cut airplane components. Unsurprisingly, the
| prisoners only get paid less than a quarter of the usual wage
| for such type of work. Nordstrom - The company was
| once under fire for selling jeans made by inmates. They have
| since stopped the practice though, and have promised not to use
| involuntary labor of any kind again. Intel - Like
| other tech giants in this list, Intel has also outsourced labor
| from prison. Some of their computer parts were made in a prison
| manufacturing facility. Walmart - Despite pledging
| not to sell products made by prisoners, some of the retail
| giant's subcontractors were using prison labor to dispose of
| customer returns and excess inventory. Victoria's
| Secret - The top American underwear designer was paying inmates
| peanuts to make their expensive lingerie. AT&T - Rather
| than outsource their call centers to other English-speaking
| countries, AT&T hired prisoners instead. The problem is, they
| only receive $2 an hour for a job that usually pays $15.
| British Petroleum (BP) - In 2010, BP hired Louisiana inmates to
| clean up an oil spill. They received no payment from it.
| Starbucks - We all know that Starbucks employees make little
| hourly. But the prisoners who make the packaged coffee sold in
| their stores make even much less money. They only receive as
| little as 23 cents an hour. Microsoft - In the
| 1990s, Microsoft made a conscious decision to hire prisoners to
| pack their software and mouse. A spokesperson at that time even
| claimed that the company sees nothing wrong about it.
| Honda Motor Company - The Japanese car company hires inmates
| from Ohio Mansfield Correctional Institution to make some of
| its car parts. As expected, the company paid them next to
| nothing. Macy's - Like Walmart and Target, this
| retail giant also uses prison labor to save on its operating
| costs. Sprint - Following the footsteps of its
| competitor, AT&T, Sprint also staffs its call centers with
| underpaid inmates. Nintendo - To pack their Game
| Boys, Nintendo hired a subcontractor who, in turn, hires
| prisoners at deplorable rates. JC Penney - Since
| the 90s, JC Penney has used prison labor for its clothing line.
| Female inmates used to sew leisurewear sold in their stores,
| and more recently, prisoners from Tennessee are making jeans
| for them. Wendy's - As part of its cost-cutting
| measures, Wendy's uses prison labor to process beef for their
| hamburgers.
|
| [1] https://blog.globaltel.com/companies-use-prison-labor/
| esarbe wrote:
| I'm so confused by all the downvotes for reasonable critique of
| either Apple or China, most of it silent without any
| justification given.
|
| Does anyone care to explain it to me?
| oefrha wrote:
| Flagged this comment due to flagrantly breaking site
| guidelines. Read the guidelines or email the contact address in
| the footer for details. Keep in mind that "reasonable" is
| subjective and no one owes you an explanation.
| sthnblllII wrote:
| Or you could just respond to his point.
| simonh wrote:
| I can only speculate, but I'll try. I haven't downvoted anyone
| in this thread BTW because I've been posting comments. When I
| post comments I prefer for them to stand as my input on the
| matter.
|
| Most of the comments I'm seeing down voted seem to me to be
| somewhat extreme invective lacking in significant useful or
| interesting content. The bottom line is HN is about high signal
| low noise. Most of the downvotes are probably just on that
| criterion.
|
| Another issue is that most of the people reading HN, including
| those vilifying Apple, probably own several dozen items
| manufactured in China. It seems somewhat unlikely that they can
| account for their supply chains in any meaningful way. There's
| also the mob rule aspect to all of this, it wouldn't be the
| first time 'evidence' had been found of Apple or their
| suppliers playing foul that turned out to be fake. Look up Mike
| Daisey some time. So lets all take some deep breaths and look
| at what's actually going on here.
| esarbe wrote:
| Thanks for the response.
|
| > Most of the comments I'm seeing down voted seem to me to be
| somewhat extreme invective lacking in significant useful or
| interesting content.
|
| Yeah, that's what's been confusing me. Some of the comments
| being downvoted I found to be quite precise critiques of the
| problems and honest attempts to provide information to an
| interesting discussion.
|
| > So lets all take some deep breaths and look at what's
| actually going on here.
|
| That sounds like the way to do it.
| robocat wrote:
| I use up and downvoting to improve the reading experience for
| others. I try hard to vote according to the hn guidelines e.g.
| "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't
| cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer,
| including at the rest of the community. Comments should get
| more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more
| divisive.". https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| Personally, I silently downvote because good community members
| will self-reflect upon their comment (for even a single
| downvote), and I believe the process of questioning one's
| writing is good; while bad community members are often not
| worth responding to (edit: I sometimes engage as i am an
| idealist and I think someone can be influenced for the better,
| however I really don't feel I have much luck against the tide!)
|
| I don't think I am infallible, and usually others will upvote
| if a mistake is made. That said, I am usually careful to only
| downvote for what I think are very good reasons. I sometimes
| upvote something downvoted incorrectly IMHO. I have showdead
| switched on, but I can't say I have felt the urgent need to
| vouch for anything yet.
|
| IMHO this thread contains a lot of noise and thoughtless
| blather, which is a shame, because the topic is really
| important.
|
| Edit: the hn guidelines say "Please don't comment about the
| voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring
| reading." True. But sometimes I think it is worthwhile, and it
| is obviously polite to answer an honest question like yours
| which is so far down-thread in a low signal environment that I
| think that my transgression is otherwise harmless.
| pfortuny wrote:
| Anywhere you read the expression "zero-tolerance" you know
| something is happening.
| daenz wrote:
| "forced labor"
|
| It's slavery...modern day slavery. Why are we mincing words? We
| stand on our soap boxes and preach about historical injustices
| and how we need to repair them. Well here is your chance to
| prevent a future historical injustice, and all it takes is for
| you to take a stand, instead of quietly consuming the products
| and leaving it for future generations to atone for methods by
| which those products were produced.
| mgh2 wrote:
| Apple fans don't seem to care, as long as they are getting
| their magic, nothing else matters...
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| Apple is Foxconn's biggest customer. But why not call out
| PlayStation and Nintendo and Amazon and???
|
| The fact is - Apple fans aren't unique. Not many people care
| about this issue, unfortunately.
| centimeter wrote:
| Aren't PlayStations made in Kisarazu, Japan? At least some
| of them are.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| mgh2 wrote:
| That is why education on the issue is important.
|
| This is an old documentary and a bit different demographic,
| but it is still pertinent. If people didn't care back then,
| I doubt they will this time though...
|
| https://www.tvo.org/video/documentaries/complicit
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| I'm not an Apple fan, probably more of an Apple hater, but
| why is Apple the bad guy for seeking cheaper labor? Why is it
| the consumers problem that China allows it's citizens to be
| treated like shit? Why is this ethical responsibility somehow
| always offloaded to the consumer?
| [deleted]
| esarbe wrote:
| > Why is this ethical responsibility somehow always
| offloaded to the consumer?
|
| Because without consumer, there would be no incentive for
| either China and Apple to behave amorally.
|
| China is a totalitarian dictatorship. As long as it's
| citizens don't rebel, they have no incentive to change
| their behavior. Apple is a publicly traded company. They
| need good publicity.
|
| So, as a humanist, I say it's up to the consumers to force
| Apple to stop contributing to human rights abuses.
| throwaway3699 wrote:
| Short of going to war (which isn't off the table), what is
| the long-term alternative?
| natecham wrote:
| Because as long as it's legal and the consumer is willing
| to buy at the rate they have been, Apple/etc. has very
| little incentive to change
| [deleted]
| crispyambulance wrote:
| > Why is this ethical responsibility somehow always
| offloaded to the consumer?
|
| Because NO ONE else seems to be up to the task.
|
| I think folks here are getting lost in the weeds about
| precise definitions which don't really matter that much and
| what they think are laws that can be applied across
| national boundaries (generally, that's not feasible).
|
| There has been an effort to ban "conflict minerals" from
| modern supply chains. It's partially successful (in that
| you effectively get "a sticker" that you can show-off if
| your supply chain doesn't use children as miners). It would
| be nice if, AT LEAST, a similar half-measure could be done
| for "forced labor" (or whatever you want to call what
| they're doing to the Uighurs).
| [deleted]
| slivanes wrote:
| Apple wants forced labor in China and they are lobbying for a
| bill aimed at allowing forced labor in China:
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-u.
| ..
| lemonspat wrote:
| As an iOS user, I care. Tim Cook needs to investigate and
| respond publicly to this immediately
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| Immediately? It's been going on for years. Why now?
| Gracana wrote:
| Immediately, because there is no better alternative.
| jodrellblank wrote:
| This isn't even concern trolling virtue signalling, this is
| you using human slavery to score internet tech superiority
| points by ... making up some fantasy strawman to sneer at.
|
| And then try to claim you are different for using Google
| because you hate yourself at the same time.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| Eh, nobody, including yourself, maybe except the Jainists,
| are willing to do without the creature comforts of their
| lifestyle, not just Apple users. Look at all the things you
| own and use, some of them built in the same Foxconn factory
| no doubt.
|
| We can look the squalor of factory-farmed animals right in
| the eye while biting into our ham sandwich and say "damn,
| someone should really do something about that." Or, perhaps
| more commonly, "I'm entitled to this, actually."
|
| So why would we budge over a little forced labor on the other
| side of the world? Or pollution? Or anything else?
|
| We care about things right up to the point where we have to
| lift a finger. Though, aside, for this reason I think
| legislation is one of the only solutions short of waiting for
| a cultural awakening that probably won't ever come.
| cmdshiftf4 wrote:
| >Though, aside, for this reason I think legislation is one
| of the only solutions short of waiting for a cultural
| awakening that probably won't ever come.
|
| I don't think it'll ever come because we've allowed
| ourselves to create an atmosphere where there's entities
| doing their utmost to ensure it never happens via the
| tolerance of behaviour economics and psychology being used
| in marketing, the tolerance of big corporate lobbyists, the
| corruption of science via corporate backed "studies" whose
| results align with the initial desires, etc.
|
| The only consolation being that our unmitigated greed will
| likely destroy us long before we have the chance to infest
| the stars with it, and that life will go on without us.
| esarbe wrote:
| Don't you need some kind of a cultural awakening to force
| politicians to introduce legislation?
| mgh2 wrote:
| Emphasis on the word "fans". Analogy: I hate Google's
| business model, but I still have to use their products for
| lack of better alternatives.
|
| The difference is that I won't go around evangelizing (i.e.
| marketing) their products as a consumer, pumping up demand
| if I knew the negative costs associated with it. On the
| corporate side is Apple's hypocrisy PR- i.e. don't drink
| their koolaid.
| nobody9999 wrote:
| >Analogy: I hate Google's business model, but I still
| have to use their products for lack of better
| alternatives.
|
| I'm curious, which Google product _must_ you use that has
| no _reasonable_ analog from a different vendor?
|
| I'm not being snarky here just a little confused.
|
| I suppose Android could fall into that definition,
| although LineageOS[0]+MicroG[1] do provide a reasonable
| alternative.
|
| My question isn't rhetorical. I'm genuinely not familiar
| with any Google product without a reasonable alternative.
|
| [0] https://lineageos.org
|
| [1] https://microg.org
|
| Edit: Fixed nonsensical sentence.
| mgh2 wrote:
| The obvious one, the search engine... due to its accuracy
| and speed. No wonder their monopoly lawsuit.
| nobody9999 wrote:
| >The obvious one, the search engine... due to its
| accuracy and speed. No wonder their monopoly lawsuit.
|
| As a general rule, I don't use the search engine. And not
| _just_ because of Google 's market power. It's also
| because the quality of search results have dropped
| enormously.
|
| At this point, other search engines are at least as good,
| IMHO.
| centimeter wrote:
| If I have the opportunity to buy something not made in China,
| I will take it. Unfortunately, it's essentially impossible to
| buy any consumer electronics not made there.
|
| The set of things you can buy these days that _isn 't_ made
| in China is essentially restricted to luxury goods and
| safety-critical equipment (cars, guns, scuba gear, etc.);
| despite what they tend to say out loud, companies know that
| it's prohibitively expensive to get safety-critical
| reliability out of Chinese manufacturing. But if it's just
| your camera or power drill or whatever, they know you're not
| going to sue them when it breaks. Apple actually does a
| really good job on QC for Chinese manufacturing, but then you
| have all these accusations of forced labor to contend with.
| hedora wrote:
| Note that slavery is still legal in the US.
|
| "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a
| punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly
| convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place
| subject to their jurisdiction."
|
| There's an active attempt in congress to amend the constitution
| to abolish slavery in the US:
|
| https://www.npr.org/2020/12/03/942413221/democrats-push-abol...
|
| Legal, domestic forced labor is over a $2 billion dollar
| industry. People that refuse to work are retaliated against:
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/23/prison...
|
| Think globally, act locally.
| henvic wrote:
| It's even worse when you remember plenty of victims are
| behind bars due to victimless "crimes", police fraud, or
| minor infractions.
| [deleted]
| rowanG077 wrote:
| Because it's not about the historical injustices. Those people
| don't care about injustices. They care about looking good and
| moral.
| bergstromm466 wrote:
| > instead of quietly consuming the products
|
| The problem is the _propertied capitalist class_ , not the
| working class.
|
| The capitalist class has the power. I appreciate your
| intention, yet it's super important to be clear that the
| problem is the bourgeoisie and the capitalist system, as the
| means of production are monopolized in their hands. The most
| advanced form through which the bourgeoisie (in this case
| Apple) expropriates, creates enclosures and exploits/oppresses,
| is 1) through the use of trade secret laws [1], which steals
| away new inventions from the commons and stifles learning and
| innovation, as well as 2) through the means-of-exchange money
| system that obscures relationships between people and places
| [2].
|
| _" Zak Cope makes the case that capitalism is empirically
| inseparable from imperialism, historically and today. Using a
| rigorous political economic framework, he lays bare the vast
| ongoing transfer of wealth from the poorest to the richest
| countries through the mechanisms of monopoly rent, unequal
| exchange, and colonial tribute. The result is a polarized
| international class structure with a relatively rich Global
| North and an impoverished, exploited Global South.
|
| Cope makes the controversial claim that it is because of these
| conditions that workers in rich countries benefit from higher
| incomes and welfare systems with public health, education,
| pensions, and social security. As a result, the
| internationalism of populations in the Global North is weakened
| and transnational solidarity is compromised. The only way
| forward, Cope argues is through a renewed anti-imperialist
| politics rooted in a firm commitment to a radical labor
| internationalism."_ [3]
|
| [1] https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2019/02/19/dont-fooled-patent-
| pur...
|
| [2]
| http://mikorizal.org/Fromprivateownershipaccountingtocommons...
|
| [3] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43015121-the-wealth-
| of-s...
| Veen wrote:
| As an anti-capitalist, does it give you pause for thought
| that the Campaign for Accountability, which is behind this
| report, was co-founded by Louis Mayberg, the principal in a
| large investment management company.
| [deleted]
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| If everyone's accountable, the world's a better place for
| everyone (except perhaps the people committing _flagrantly_
| unethical crimes). You don 't need to be a staunch anti-
| capitalist to see that. And hey, if you've got money, maybe
| you can do something about it.
| greggturkington wrote:
| "Modern day slavery" is mincing words, slavery in the modern
| day is just slavery. Typically slavery refers to the slave
| being considered property, and ownership transferring to
| offspring. You can compare it to forced labor.
| flatline wrote:
| I agree, though chattel slavery typically implies the slavery
| of offspring. You can still have institutionalized slavery
| without that, like the Romans and a lot of other cultures
| throughout history. Slaves could be set free, could have
| semi-decent standards of living, while still being
| dehumanized. Or they could be treated brutally and enslaved
| for generations. The term seems to fit here in the broadest
| sense of the word.
| La1n wrote:
| Not all slavery is chattel slavery.
| greggturkington wrote:
| A good example of another type being forced labor via debt
| bondage.
| [deleted]
| jeromenerf wrote:
| "Slavery" etymology takes its roots with the "Slavs" people,
| who were, well, enslaved in medieval times. The term has been
| commonly accepted to describe various similar patterns before
| and after those times.
|
| I agree that yesterday or today slavery is just slavery,
| whatever subtile differences there might be.
| nomoreusernames wrote:
| being sold at a slave market in the middle east, is quite
| different from being forced to work or being put in a
| detainment camp. a slave in this context has no human value.
| its owning a human being, not simply forcing them to work. it
| can even be hereditary. its practiced daily since a certain
| religious figure did it and granted his followers the same
| "right". (to own another human being)
| alisonkisk wrote:
| Being a slave in China vs Middle East is not different in the
| key aspect that matters most. Perspecit and proportionality
| matters.
| nomoreusernames wrote:
| id argue there is a difference. i know im wrong though and
| there are many types of slavery. the reason i choose to
| make a difference between them is because ive seen both and
| i cannot to this day process what i saw, and the attitude
| of people. a slave from my experience is seen as subhuman.
| and when religion is used to justify it, its to me
| different from china. but i mean chinese citizens cannot
| leave their country and start a new life somewere else. so
| i think in the context of china you might be even further
| correct.
| jonathannat wrote:
| The good news is all macro trends portend to factories leaving
| faster out of China. And less trade with China.
|
| - Unfavorable Views of China Reach Historic Highs in Many
| Countries in 2020
| https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/10/06/unfavorable-
| vi.... Consciously or subconsciously, consumers will favor
| goods made not in China
|
| - US President-elect Joe Biden affirms his anti-China position.
| On Monday, he slammed China once again for "abuses" on trade,
| technology and human rights and said America can best pursue
| its goals relative to Beijing, when it is "flanked" by like-
| minded partners and allies.
| https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/biden-slams-
| chines.... This should help confirm multinational COO's
| decisions to leave China faster.
|
| - China keeps attacking other countries, and further isolating
| itself. From stopping coal trade with Australia, and causing
| blackouts for its own cities
| https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/16/world/australia/china-
| coa..., to engaging in border war with india, to antagonizing
| US, Canada and UK.
|
| - Chinese suppliers engaging in more and more thievery and
| sabotage against its own global partners, as reported at
| chinalawblog. Western companies are reporting Chinese suppliers
| are brazenly not delivering on goods paid for.
| stefan_ wrote:
| Okay, but it was the Indian iPhone slave workers actually
| rioting.
| koheripbal wrote:
| This trend is not what you think it is. The factories are
| moving to other countries, but still owned by Chinese firms
| and still using the same, if not more brutal tactics.
|
| They are just moving the chips around the board.
| jonathannat wrote:
| Multinational factories are owned by multinationals. Yes,
| some factories are owned by Chinese firms, but even that's
| misleading. Alot of the "Chinese" firms have Hong Kong
| owners, who usually operates more ethically, and hates
| China, than "CCP state" firms that engages in modern day
| slavery.
| strogonoff wrote:
| Equating slavery with forced labour belittles the gravity and
| awfulness of what actual slavery is (or was).
|
| Forced labour takes different forms, which includes forced paid
| work and by some definitions penal work.
|
| Slavery is when a person is treated as a property of another
| person. Being a slave may or may not involve forced labour.
|
| In addition, calling Uyghur work "slavery" in fact undermines
| the cause, allowing CCP defenders to legitimately call out
| "fake news". Precision matters.
| rukuu001 wrote:
| It's slavery with window dressing.
|
| 'CCP defenders' and other apologists will make bad-faith
| arguments no matter how precise you are.
| downrightmike wrote:
| They are kept in camps, monitored constantly, have no
| privacy, are searched constantly and on top of that, they are
| forced to work or go to detention. That is slavery. There's
| also the problem with them getting gutted for the organ
| transplants that China's own doctors have reported to be 4
| times higher than they should be for the population size. So
| it is work, or go to detention and possibly get gutted.
| amscanne wrote:
| > They are kept in camps, monitored constantly, have no
| privacy, are searched constantly and on top of that, they
| are forced to work or go to detention
|
| This also seems to describe prison labor that occurs in the
| US, which, putting problems and criticisms aside, is
| definitely different from slavery. I don't think the
| imprecision in language is helpful, it hurts the cause in
| the same way people constantly referring to modern
| political leaders as literal Nazis hurts their credibility.
| bigbubba wrote:
| > _This also seems to describe prison labor that occurs
| in the US, which [...] is definitely different from
| slavery_
|
| Did you sleep though civics class? Go read the thirteenth
| amendment.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| > _The Thirteenth Amendment (Amendment XIII) to the
| United States Constitution abolished slavery and
| involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime._
| -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_
| the_Un...
|
| This doesn't say "prison labor is slavery"; it says that
| prison labor is _allowed to be_ slavery. You should 've
| provided some reference to e.g. a news article to back up
| your claim.
|
| It's legal to paint yourself blue and write obscenities
| on your face and walk into a library, but that isn't
| _evidence_ that anyone does it. (Likewise, it 's legal to
| make people pay you fifty times the inflation-adjusted
| value of a loan you gave them - things being legal isn't
| evidence that they _don 't_ happen, which would be
| absurd.)
| bigbubba wrote:
| Forced labor is slavery, full stop. This was recognized
| by the men who wrote the 13th amendment. It is not
| "definitely different". And no, paying a slave does not
| make it 'not slavery.' Slaves have been paid paltry sums
| _some of the time_ throughout history. It 's still
| slavery.
| DenisM wrote:
| Please don't do that here. From the guidelines:
|
| > Don't be snarky.
|
| > Please don't comment on whether someone read an
| article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions
| that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| bigbubba wrote:
| Run tell dang. Maybe he'll wake up and do something about
| the blatant CCP shills (I doubt it) after giving me a
| scolding for telling him (and you) to fuck off.
| DenisM wrote:
| > CCP shills
|
| And that is also against the rules:
|
| > Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing,
| shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It
| degrades discussion and is usually mistaken.
|
| If you despise the rules so much why do you even keep
| coming here?
| YawningAngel wrote:
| It isn't clear to me that prison labour in the US is
| meaningfully distinct from slavery
| dpifke wrote:
| It isn't, which is why the 13th amendment (which bans
| other forms of slavery) explicitly permits it.
|
| Some members from both houses of Congress have recently
| proposed a constitutional amendment to change this:
|
| https://www.merkley.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/The%20Abolit
| ion...
| throwaway201103 wrote:
| Except for the due process trial, conviction, and
| sentencing.
| downrightmike wrote:
| yeah, that's the way it is justified, repaying debts to
| society.
| bigbubba wrote:
| Because it isn't. It's distinct from _chattel slavery_ ,
| which is not the only form of slavery. Bonded labor is
| the most common form of slavery today, and is also not
| chattel slavery.
| Lutger wrote:
| Don't forget tortured, gang raped and sterilized.
| bwilli123 wrote:
| "They are kept in camps, monitored constantly, have no
| privacy, are searched constantly and on top of that, they
| are forced to work or go to detention..." An Amazon
| warehouse is already 90% there then.
| JoshTko wrote:
| What sources are you getting the organ transplants
| information from?
| lgvld wrote:
| I often hear that uyghurs organs are sold as pure/halal
| organs to muslims from Saudi Arabia (and other rich
| muslims countries). If it is true -- and I think it is --
| that is indeed absolutly abominable.
|
| https://www.saveuighur.org/the-economics-of-chinas-organ-
| har...
|
| https://theircc.org/organharvesting/
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun
| _Go...
| scrps wrote:
| https://bmcmedethics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s
| 129...
| hcurtiss wrote:
| Odd to me that your question -- a genuine question --
| would be downvoted.
| zenexer wrote:
| Probably because it's received quite a bit of attention.
| If you've been reading HN for a while, particularly
| articles about the recent injustices in China, you've
| likely already encountered such claims.
| [deleted]
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| Here's one: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-
| forcefully-harvests...
| FartyMcFarter wrote:
| Directly from Enver Tohti, a Chinese doctor who was
| involved in organ harvesting:
|
| https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/surgeon-
| cla...
|
| > But when Tohti arrived at the destination, he was
| shocked to find at least 10 prisoners had been shot in a
| field by a firing squad.
|
| > Armed police waved the surgeon and his medical team
| over and directed them to a man lying unconscious on
| blood-soaked ground.
|
| > Tohti said: "He'd been shot in the right-hand side of
| the chest but was still alive.
|
| > "I told my chief surgeon he wasn't dead but he ordered
| me to remove the man's liver and kidneys there and then -
| and to be quick about it. I was ordered not to give the
| man any anaesthetic."
| downrightmike wrote:
| Fuck, that is way worse that I had heard. JFC
| mgh2 wrote:
| Speculation from multiple sources: https://www.youtube.co
| m/watch?v=SyZschwFN-c&ab_channel=SkyNe...
|
| Extrapolation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harves
| ting_from_Falun_Go...
| baybal2 wrote:
| > Equating slavery with forced labour belittles the gravity
| and awfulness of what actual slavery is (or was).
|
| It makes no difference, both are the same in being the most
| exemplary form of class warfare, and are equally terrible.
|
| Trying to draw a line in between them is a very petty attempt
| to claim that one is somehow less worse, or even somehow more
| legitimate than other.
| judge2020 wrote:
| Knowing the details of the current situation and
| differentiating it from previous forms of slavery does
| matter, but, as you say, it's by no means the most
| important thing we should be focusing on and discussing in
| the comments.
| Siira wrote:
| I don't see how forced labor is not a typical example of
| slavery. This is not "precision," it's apologism.
| baskire wrote:
| The CCP is currently committing a genocide. The UN even
| declared such [1].
|
| I actually think the CCP treats them worse than many in the
| usa and Europe treated their slaves back in the day.
|
| [1] https://www.npr.org/2020/07/04/887239225/china-
| suppression-o...
| Aunche wrote:
| That's not what your source says at all. _One person_ who
| works for a anti-communist organization thinks that it
| meets the UN definition of genocide. This sort of malicious
| misinterpretation of China is why people think it 's 100x
| more evil and absurd than it actually is. Another example
| is China's banning a few Winnie the Pooh memes got warped
| into China banning Winnie the Pooh altogether. Anyone who
| stepped foot into China would know that's ridiculous.
| monocasa wrote:
| That article doesn't say what you're asserting that it
| does.
|
| Adrian Zenz doesn't speak for the UN.
| diegoholiveira wrote:
| Some people in this world is treated as a property by his own
| government.
| slumpt_ wrote:
| And so we tread on, repeating history, justified by subtle
| semantic arguments on the internet.
|
| Humans are disappointing, though I am encouraged by the
| abundance of others calling this out the same.
| nomoreusernames wrote:
| was? you do know that slave markets exist today right? also
| isis sold the daughters and wives of minority groups deemed
| to be infidels.
| Clubber wrote:
| >Slavery is when a person is treated as a property of another
| person.
|
| That's called chattel slavery. Just because something isn't
| chattel slavery doesn't mean it isn't still slavery.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery
|
| "Slavery relies heavily on the enslaved person being
| intimidated either by the threat of violence or some other
| method of abuse. In chattel slavery, the enslaved person is
| legally rendered the personal property (chattel) of the slave
| owner."
| api wrote:
| A person held against their will and forced to do labor is a
| slave whether they're called that or not, especially if they
| have committed no legitimate offense for which such a
| punishment could be justified.
|
| As near as I can tell the Uighurs' "offense" is being of a
| different ethnicity and being majority Muslim. What the
| Chinese are doing here is very close to what the USA did in
| its first century with African slaves.
| strogonoff wrote:
| You are right in your last paragraph. The situation in
| Xinjang is such that for an Uyghur it is in fact impossible
| to decline to do what the state says. Any work done with
| involvement of Uyghur population by default is a situation
| of forced labour. That's what the article says.
|
| However, using the term "slavery" gives CCP ammunition to
| fight back. They can point out that Uyghurs are paid. They
| can claim they are free to refuse (we know they will not
| out of fear of retribution, but I suspect the need for such
| nuance only hurts the case).
| [deleted]
| berdario wrote:
| > The situation in Xinjang is such that for an Uyghur it
| is in fact impossible to decline to do what the state
| says
|
| ...
|
| > The situation anywhere is such that for anyone it is in
| fact impossible to decline to do what the state says
|
| FTFY
|
| As long as you have a police force and prisons, you'll
| never be able to NOT do what the state says.
|
| Now, it's a matter of:
|
| - do you disagree with what the state does?
|
| - do you agree with what the state does?
|
| And all the positions between these 2 extremes.
|
| On one end, you have anarchists (and what the state would
| call terrorists)
|
| On the other end, you have statists (and what the
| anarchists would call authoritarians/fascists/wumao)
| AnthonyMouse wrote:
| You are obviously eliding the distinction between a state
| where officials can arbitrarily order you to do anything
| and a state bound by the rule of law and a constitution
| enforced by independent courts that limits what the
| executive and legislature can order you to do.
| berdario wrote:
| Yes, because that's a separate/orthogonal (and much more
| controversial point).
|
| I just don't want anarchists to be fooled into supporting
| the warmongering US propaganda.
|
| i.e. do you agree that the state should have the power to
| do what's described above?
|
| I was leaning to say more "no". I basically used to be
| more of an anarchist. That was probably (also) because I
| was disappointed in our cronyist, capitalist,
| disfunctional governments...
|
| I'm now finding myself as more of a statist, after
| realizing how much good is being accomplished in China,
| and how arbitrary and ridiculous are the falsehoods that
| the US propaganda is pushing.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| Any criticism will give CCP ammunition to fight back in
| bad faith. They can say "US government oppressed its
| colored people too" which is true.
|
| By refusing to criticize them, you are just doing their
| work for them and giving them a free pass.
| [deleted]
| Mauricebranagh wrote:
| That's why we have the definition of "modern slavery".
|
| It could be interesting would journalists on the Gruniad have
| to give up using macs then.
|
| "We rely on our suppliers sharing our values and complying
| with all laws at all times. We expect our business partners
| to treat people with dignity and respect and not to engage in
| practices associated with forced labor, even if not illegal
| in their location"
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| "Modern Slavery" is a term of art. It has legal definitions
| in many countries including the US[1].
|
| 1. https://www.state.gov/what-is-modern-slavery/
| jordan_curve wrote:
| That comparison could just as easily be said to belittle what
| actual forced labor is.
|
| I don't think it's helpful to compare which atrocity is
| worse.
|
| There are many societies that have had lots of norms or laws
| protecting slaves from various forms of harm. That's of
| course not to say slavery was acceptable in those societies
| on any level, but many slaves lived more comfortable lives
| than those who eventually died of malnutrition at Auchwitz-
| II.
| strogonoff wrote:
| Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now.
| Equating forced labour as a whole with slavery, which is
| frequently used to refer to chattel slavery that existed in
| the US (HN audience is to large degree US-based) before
| 1865, may seem inconsiderate to those whose ancestors had
| to endure the latter.
|
| What is reported to be happening to Muslims now in Xinjang,
| with reeducation camps and all, is not the same as treating
| a human as another piece of personal property. It is both
| not as bad, and yet at the same time somehow even worse, as
| this time a whole culture is being systematically
| eliminated.
| sli wrote:
| > Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now.
|
| The Constitution refers to it directly as slavery. The
| 13th says "except as punishment for a crime." Folks may
| want to mince words about it because prisoners are
| _technically_ paid (pennies per hour), if they are even
| getting paid in the first place. It was major news that
| prisoners were sent to fight fires in California for
| little to no pay. Plus, prisoners are on the hook
| financially for a lot of their sentence, so that money is
| basically spent before they even get it.
| jvreagan wrote:
| Prisoner firefighters in California are volunteers that
| opt in and receive significantly reduced sentences for
| their service and often end up working for Calfire upon
| release.
| virtue3 wrote:
| they -just- made a ruling that would overturn this, but
| this was not the case until -very-very-very- recently.
|
| https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/08/20/califor
| nia...
| rurp wrote:
| According to this article from a couple years ago the
| convict firefighters are frequently excluded from doing
| those jobs after being released.
| https://www.axios.com/how-inmates-who-fight-wildfires-
| are-la...
| stickfigure wrote:
| > It was major news that prisoners were sent to fight
| fires in California for little to no pay.
|
| Just to make sure nobody is confused by this, because the
| subject comes up a lot - prisoner firefighers are
| volunteers.
| fishtacos wrote:
| Just to make sure no one is confused by this either,
| there is no "volunteer[ing]" in prison.
| tiahura wrote:
| I'm guessing you've never been incarcerated? There's all
| sorts of volunteering: such as fixing the TV or coffee
| maker, teaching other inmates to read, helping another
| inmate file a frivolous appeal, and so on.
|
| https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/07/20/538062911
| /wh... [What's It Really Like To Work In A Prison Goat
| Milk Farm? We Asked Inmates]
|
| But what do the workers themselves think?
|
| I find Jeremiah Pate in the milking barn, attaching
| milking machines to the goats' udders.
|
| "This job, how do you feel about it?" I ask him. "A bad
| thing? Good thing?"
|
| "It's a great thing," Pate tells me. "It beats the
| alternative. Rather than sitting in your tiny little
| cell, you get to come out here."
|
| Every man I meet echoes that thought. They aren't
| thinking about what was fair on the outside. They were
| just thinking about their options in prison, and in that
| perspective, the farm looked pretty good.
| Nkuna wrote:
| > there is no "volunteer[ing]" in prison.
|
| >> "It's a great thing," Pate tells me. "It beats the
| alternative. Rather than sitting in your tiny little
| cell, you get to come out here."
|
| >> They were just thinking about their options in prison,
| and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good.
|
| You're making the point of OP. When the only other option
| is "sitting in your tiny little cell", there's not much
| choice in it. It's less volunteering, and more escaping a
| psychologically untenable situation.
|
| Given other options, I doubt many inmates would be
| willing to 'volunteer' or work for peanuts.
| gambiting wrote:
| Yeah, it's like the rest of the US justice system "you
| can plead guilty and with the time we kept you in jail
| waiting for trial you can go home tomorrow, or you can go
| to trial at some unspecified point in the future and risk
| going to prison for 20 years - which one do you want?"
|
| There is no free choice in that question. Just an
| illusion of one.
| stickfigure wrote:
| What are those other options? Take away the volunteer
| opportunity? Stop punishing people?
|
| Just FYI, most of the _non_ -prisoner firefighters in
| California are also volunteers. In my district (north
| Solano county), 90% of firefighters are volunteers. We
| don't get paid.
| AnthonyMouse wrote:
| > They aren't thinking about what was fair on the
| outside. They were just thinking about their options in
| prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty
| good.
|
| You're making the case that it _is_ involuntary. "Do
| this or we shall do to you something worse against your
| will" is textbook coercion.
| moron4hire wrote:
| But it's the thing that would already be done to them if
| the work program was not available. We put criminals in
| prison because of the crimes they commit, not because of
| the jobs they refuse once they are there.
| klyrs wrote:
| Is it so hard to imagine that folks risking their lives
| to fight fires _should_ be paid for that heroic service,
| be they incarcerated or not?
| matthewdgreen wrote:
| The previous poster made a very obvious point that work
| is not voluntary when the alternative is punishment,
| which your post very helpfully illustrates as "sitting in
| [a] tiny little cell." This doesn't seem like a point
| that should require so much explanation for thinking
| people.
| buttercraft wrote:
| 'sli stated, "It was major news that prisoners were sent
| to fight fires in California for little to no pay." This
| makes it sound as if they were forced to do a dangerous
| job against their will. As 'stickfigure pointed out, they
| could have chosen to sit in a cell instead. The fact that
| nobody goes to prison voluntarily is beside the point.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| You and the previous poster seem to ignore that the
| punishment is just (to the extent that the criminal
| justice system is capable of justice).
|
| It's not like they're forced to work; and if they take
| the option, they're still under punishment doled by the
| justice system. So it's not immoral forced labor as long
| as neither the work or the jail cell constitutes "cruel
| and unusual punishment".
| Pfhreak wrote:
| > the punishment is just
|
| I think it's reasonable to hold the belief that the
| punishment, especially in today's prison system, is _not_
| just.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| Whether or not it's just, it's a separate discussion.
| nobody9999 wrote:
| >You and the previous poster seem to ignore that the
| punishment is just (to the extent that the criminal
| justice system is capable of justice).
|
| By your logic, the Uighurs are experiencing "just"
| punishment under the laws of the People's Republic of
| China.
|
| Since the Uighurs have committed "crimes" (as defined by
| the government under which they live) against the state,
| they are subject to whatever punishment is prescribed by
| the law.
|
| This is, of course, ridiculous on its face. And is just
| as ridiculous anywhere else.
|
| There are valid reasons to separate _some_ folks from the
| rest of society (think John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer,
| Ted Bundy, etc.), as they 've shown themselves to be
| unable/unwilling to respect the rights of others within
| that society.
|
| Incarceration as a tool of _punishment_ , while widely
| used, often poses more risk of harming society than any
| benefit from "punishing" offenders.
|
| It's a complex issue, and simplifying it to "Law and
| order! Lock 'em up!" is reductive and often detrimental
| to the societies it's supposed to improve.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| No, I'm talking about incarceration in the USA. There's a
| huge difference between that and what's happening in
| China.
| nobody9999 wrote:
| >No, I'm talking about incarceration in the USA. There's
| a huge difference between that and what's happening in
| China.
|
| I was aware of that when responding. In fact, when I
| said:
|
| "There are valid reasons to separate some folks from the
| rest of society (think John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer,
| Ted Bundy, etc.), as they've shown themselves to be
| unable/unwilling to respect the rights of others within
| that society.
|
| Incarceration as a tool of punishment, while widely used,
| often poses more risk of harming society than any benefit
| from "punishing" offenders.
|
| It's a complex issue, and simplifying it to "Law and
| order! Lock 'em up!" is reductive and often detrimental
| to the societies it's supposed to improve."
|
| I was _specifically_ referring to my home, the USA.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| So ... it is slavery, but just slavery?
|
| Well, I would say, the lines get blurry. And when you
| have private prisons, where the owners have a incentive
| to exploit prison labour, while also keeping their costs
| low - you end up in something, too close to slavery for
| my taste.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| Just to make sure no one is confused by this, jobs in
| prison are a _privilege_ you have to earn through good
| behavior.
|
| Firefighting jobs are the most coveted because you get to
| leave prison grounds, and as of 2020, can now be employed
| as a firefighter upon release (in CA).
| aaomidi wrote:
| Yes. The US has slave labor too.
|
| This distinction seems like us trying to protect our own
| interests in regards to keeping slavery legal in the
| United States too.
| cforrester wrote:
| I think you're thinking of "slavery" as a term applying
| exclusively to chattel slavery, but it's far from
| exclusive to that form. Bonded labour and forced labour
| are commonly recognized forms of slavery, as people are
| obligated to serve another under threat of violence.
| woodruffw wrote:
| You're conflating slavery and _chattel_ slavery.
|
| As others have mentioned, the 13th Amendment explicitly
| carves out forced labor as a legal form of slavery under
| a course of punishment. Referring to it as slavery does
| nothing to diminish the atrocities of chattel slavery.
| rhn_mk1 wrote:
| > Equating forced labour as a whole with slavery, which
| is frequently used to refer to what existed in the US (HN
| audience is to large degree US-based) before 1865, may
| seem inconsiderate to those whose ancestors had to endure
| the latter.
|
| I don't see this as a reason to cut off the discussion.
| Trying to distance forced labor from slavery may seem
| incosiderate to those who had to endure the former.
|
| There's no escaping the inconsideration considerations,
| so I prefer to discuss the topic at hand without that
| baggage.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Also, at least in the US,
|
| - slavery is allowed explicitly for prison labor,
|
| - there was a concerted effort after the end of slavery
| to put former slaves and their descendants into things
| that were almost like slavery, including mass
| incarceration
| bstar77 wrote:
| "Forced" is the word the article uses. We don't know if that's
| accurate or hyperbolic. I think issues like these are worth
| scrutiny and intense investigation, but I'm not going to pull
| my pitch fork out just yet.
|
| It's so easy to sit in my desk chair, read an article like this
| and have an armchair outrage moment.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| pulling out your wallet without thinking is as bad as pulling
| out a pitchfork. Perhaps worse, since you are holding the
| global poor to a higher burden of proof than the billionaire
| elites.
| bstar77 wrote:
| That's fine, but tell me where I can buy an ethically
| sourced phone? I develop for iOS, Android and Desktop
| systems. Each of these devices have thousands of components
| from different vendors that I have to support. The parent
| article is talking about some glass.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| https://www.fairphone.com/en/ probably,
| https://www.pine64.org/ maybe. Knowing something exists
| is the biggest step towards finding it.
| hourislate wrote:
| _Forced Labor_ is considered a "Crime Against Humanity" and
| participants can be taken to a Court of International Law.
|
| If Apple is a willing participant, I would imagine they could
| be dragged in front of the Hague.
| blhack wrote:
| And yet: China is on the UN Human Rights Council.
| cmdshiftf4 wrote:
| Are we back to pretending the UN is an entity of reverence
| again?
| hdjtkrnrn wrote:
| What is an influencer to do? Switch to Android, like poor
| people?
|
| Nobody who matters is going to boycott Apple.
|
| Apple will counter with a plausible narrative, "we didn't know,
| we cancelled contracts, ..." and everything will be fine again.
|
| Oh, and a new woke diversity ad to show how much they care
| about muslims. And everybody will share and clap and feel good.
| cutemonster wrote:
| What about Fairphone, https://www.fairphone.com?
| esarbe wrote:
| Why the downvotes? Too close to the truth?
| esarbe wrote:
| Apparently so! I take your downvotes with pride. Bring them
| on!
|
| Arguments for a productive discussion would be better
| though I don't seem to get any of these...
| dang wrote:
| Would you please stop breaking the site guidelines?
| You've done that many times in this thread.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| Buge wrote:
| hdjtkrnrn isn't downvoted. By the way, it's against the
| rules to comment about downvotes.
| mrkstu wrote:
| So, switch to an actual Chinese phone then?
|
| About the only 'safe' phone would be a Samsung phone, but the
| likelihood that some parts are still sourced from un-vetted
| Chinese parts supplier is high.
|
| Apple is far from perfect, but they do more than 99% of
| manufacturers. Even the most 'woke' fashion brands are now
| having to deal with the fact that much of their cotton is
| coming from Uyghur forced labor.
|
| I applaud this kind of reporting, to expose the practices of
| the Nazi-like Chinese/Industrial exploitation machine, but
| I'm leery of the tendency to apply 'Apple' to every such
| article, like Greenpeace was doing for a long while to drum
| up publicity.
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| Samsung is one of Lens Technology's biggest customers,
| according to the New York Times[1]. This is the company in
| today's report , so I'm not sure why you think Samsung is
| safe.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/business/international/h
| o...
| mrkstu wrote:
| So you're making my point for me? Even the most
| vertically integrated manufacturer, who tries to avoid
| Chinese dependencies for strategic reasons, can't avoid
| it.
| jjulius wrote:
| >Apple is far from perfect, but they do more than 99% of
| manufacturers.
|
| Source?
| trevyn wrote:
| > _What is an influencer to do?_
|
| Make a lot of noise about it. Use an iPhone _and_ be very
| vocal about human rights abuses.
| api wrote:
| You're right, and that's why governments must step in.
| Markets are not configured or incentivized to address ills
| like this, nor are corporations. Asking a corporation to
| right large scale social wrongs is like asking the DMV to
| operate your military or walking into a restaurant and asking
| them to come fix your roof. It's just the wrong socioeconomic
| tool for the job. If you try to really pressure or force them
| to do it, they'll do something half-assed much as you
| describe.
|
| Boycotts can work a little, but a boycott large enough to be
| effective and overcome other market forces is very hard to
| organize and sustain.
|
| I'm not totally letting Apple off the hook, just pointing out
| that without the government doing something here any measures
| Apple or anyone else takes will be ineffective. Even if Apple
| starts pushing back on this, other manufacturers will fill
| the void and take advantage of that cheap labor instead.
| Apple might even find it tough to police this since Chinese
| companies may lie about where work is being performed or who
| is doing it. They're likely to demand that Apple pay more for
| different labor and then pocket the money and use forced
| labor instead.
| ryandrake wrote:
| Boycott is a fine tool if we're talking about influencing
| the corner grocery store in a town of 100 people. You might
| actually put a dent in their business and cause them to
| change whatever you're boycotting about. On the other hand,
| boycotts are totally pointless vs GlobalUltraMegaCorps. If
| everyone on HN stopped buying from these massive companies,
| it wouldn't even be noticed. Apple sells roughly 200
| million iPhones yearly. Do you think it's possible to get
| even 1% of those customers to act on a boycott?
| MaxHoppersGhost wrote:
| Exactly. No one is ditching their iPhone. It's all about the
| blue text bubbles. If Americans would just switch to WhatsApp
| or something else like the rest of the world we could get
| past the Android stigma.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Is the labor used to make an iPhone and different than any
| other phone? Or any other electronics for that matter?
|
| As far as I know, unless you stop consuming electronics
| completely, you're not avoiding the labor abuses mining the
| necessary metals in Central Africa or the labor to
| manufacture it in Asia.
| corty wrote:
| There is e.g. Fairphone
| philliphaydon wrote:
| WhatsApp is terrible and insecure. Facebook already knows
| too much about me.
| herbst wrote:
| So why not Signal? Telegram? Slack? Discord if thats your
| thing. Or even Email?
|
| I mean we do have plenty of choice, many actually caring
| about security and their users.
| monocasa wrote:
| Telegram, Slack, and Discord are also awful for privacy
| FWIW.
| ficklepickle wrote:
| If that's what people care about, then humanity deserves
| what is coming to it.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| What's coming? A hedonic exploitation of poor and
| oppressed humans? The global rich are largely happy to
| get that.
| jordan_curve wrote:
| It's not slavery. They're similar atrocities though. It would
| be weird to refer to the people in Auchwitz-II as slaves.
| bigbubba wrote:
| Oh fuck off. A quick web search reveals that Auschwitz.org
| refers to slave labor as _slave_ labor in numerous places.
|
| > _On July 4, 1942 at the latest, regular selection was
| introduced for the Jews arriving on RSHA transports. As a
| result, an average of only 20% of them were kept alive and
| placed in the camp as prisoners capable of performing slave
| labor. They were employed mostly in constructing new parts of
| the camp, or at German companies involved in maintaining and
| developing the military potential of the Third Reich. They
| were transferred on a mass scale from Auschwitz to sub-camps
| set up nearby or in Upper Silesia, or to concentration camps
| in the depths of the Third Reich._
|
| http://auschwitz.org/en/history/categories-of-
| prisoners/jews...
| baybal2 wrote:
| It is slavery.
|
| > It would be weird to refer to the people in Auchwitz-II as
| slaves.
|
| People in Auchwitz-II were enslaved, thus they were slaves,
| subjects of economic exploitation in their life, and death.
|
| It's just we never, and for a wrong reason, talk about the
| original motive behind NSDAPs attack on Jews, and other
| minorities.
|
| That motive is the same as for whatever else form of forced
| labour -- class warfare, as was the case for many other
| pretexts for genocide in history.
|
| The type of hatred NSDAP managed to peddle the most was not
| for hatred of Jewish people for being Jewish as such, but for
| Jewish people being rich.
|
| NSDAPs first attacks on Jewish people were spun around the
| message of class warfare. NSDAPs biggest sell for
| Kristallnacht was the opportunity for poor angry underclasses
| to get from rags to riches in one night by robbing homes, and
| businesses of rich Jewish families with impunity after all.
| UnpossibleJim wrote:
| I'm no necessarily disagreeing with you, as far as saying "it
| would be weird to refer to the people in Auschwitz-II as
| slaves", but may I ask why? I can't come up with a reason,
| really. They were dehumanized, worked to death, treated as
| property and less. Would calling them slaves be giving the
| Nazis too much credit, at that point?
| jlokier wrote:
| Because Auschwitz-II took dehumanisation to a whole extra
| level of depravity, far beyond slavery.
|
| While you could logically argue that people there were
| _also_ slaves, it would be an injustice to leave it at
| that. Generally speaking, slaves had some kinds of rights
| that were far better than those in Auschwitz-II.
|
| It's one thing to be treated as someone's property and
| forced labour, as a slave.
|
| It's another thing to be subject to awful medical
| experimentation (often to death), torture of kinds that are
| barely imaginable, and mass killing with on-site factories
| literally built to murder the occupants and other occupants
| forced to dispose of the body parts of their friends
| afterwards. All of this in large numbers.
|
| There's a reason Auschwitz-II had sections called
| "Crematoria I-IV".
|
| Auschwitz-II makes almost every evil in the world look mild
| in comparison. It's that bad.
| [deleted]
| kortilla wrote:
| > Apple spokesman Josh Rosenstock said the company has
| confirmed that Lens Technology has not received any labor
| transfers of Uighur workers from Xinjiang. He said Apple
| earlier this year ensured that none of its other suppliers are
| using Uighur labor transferred from Xinjiang.
|
| >"Apple has zero tolerance for forced labor," Rosenstock said.
| "Looking for the presence of forced labor is part of every
| supplier assessment we conduct, including surprise audits.
| These protections apply across the supply chain, regardless of
| a person's job or location. Any violation of our policies has
| immediate consequences, including possible business
| termination. As always, our focus is on making sure everyone is
| treated with dignity and respect, and we will continue doing
| all we can to protect workers in our supply chain."
| Shivetya wrote:
| Zero tolerance apparently does not extend beyond the
| facilities Apple needs to make its goods. As in, they seem to
| turn a blind eye towards the country's behavior they are in
| as long as they can keep their own hands clean.
|
| Simply put, Apple should be held accountable for simply doing
| manufacturing in a country which allows such abuse regardless
| if they or their suppliers actively use such labor.
|
| Apple isn't alone in this behavior but they are beyond most
| when it comes to virtue signalling.
| daenz wrote:
| Now post the next 3 paragraphs after those quotes.
|
| Apple is actively doing business in a location where slavery
| is frequently occurring, while pretending that their audits
| are thorough and comprehensive so that their hands appear
| clean. But the fact that they are playing whack-a-mole with
| constant slavery reports should be evidence enough that they
| know exactly what they're doing: they're trying to turn a
| profit while turning a blind eye to abuses, so long as they
| don't happen too publicly, and don't directly implicate them.
| This is wrong.
| WillPostForFood wrote:
| It would be easier to just not do any business with any
| company in Xinjiang, but is that actually punishing the
| Uighur community who aren't part of the forced labor? It
| might be better to focus the pressure on China as a whole,
| and at the international level. Or it might be more
| effective to punish companies in Beijing because they have
| the ear of the government.
| simonh wrote:
| This isn't in Xinjiang, it's suppliers in other parts of
| China that apparently had Uighur labourers sent out to
| them.
| simonh wrote:
| It looks like it may well be going that way, sure, but
| making this about Apple is headline bait. It's about China.
|
| The fact is you can't buy a single thing made in China and
| be sure it isn't implicated in this in some way. Think of
| the last few things you bought that were manufactured or
| sourced some parts in China. Can you honestly say the
| manufacturer audits their supply chain with the same
| rigour? At least Apple is trying to keep their supply chain
| clean, but ultimately that may prove to be impossible.
|
| If that's the case vilifying Apple for it won't fix it, the
| only way to fix it will be to shun Chinese products
| completely, but that's going to be a very painful and
| difficult process for more people than just Apple. Take
| Fairphone for example, those guys work really hard to do
| the right thing as much as possible, but they have dozens
| and dozens of suppliers in China some of them indirect. In
| their own literature they point out they can't answer for
| every single supplier. This is a really tough problem.
| hobs wrote:
| So we shouldnt shame the richest company on earth for
| using slave labor because its about "china"?
|
| If anyone has leverage, its Apple, so actually yes its a
| way to start fixing the problem.
|
| There's a simple way to keep slave labor out of your
| supply chain, stop doing business with people who are
| fine with that, not "performing audits to find out they
| are using slave labor again so we switched!"
| kortilla wrote:
| >So we shouldnt shame the richest company on earth for
| using slave labor because its about "china"?
|
| No, that's a convenient misdirection to avoid real
| change. By making it "Apple is evil", people just switch
| to another phone manufactured in China and pat themselves
| on the back for doing absolutely nothing.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| Not to defend Apple specifically - but do you _really_
| think it 's just Apple?
|
| Maximising downward pressure on wages - as an economist
| might label this - is the natural, predictable, desired
| outcome of globalisation.
| simonh wrote:
| How do you know which supplier is "fine with that", and
| how do you anticipate a supplier before they decide to
| change over to using illegitimate labour?
|
| Auditing suppliers, verifying supply chains and switching
| away from cheaters is one way to address the issue.
| Another is to not do business in China at all.
| moocowtruck wrote:
| ya see, apple said they dont allow it, now gimme my iphone!!
| rasz wrote:
| > supplier assessment we conduct, including surprise audits.
| These protections apply across the supply chain
|
| like in India?
| buckminster wrote:
| The labour is not transferred from Xinjiang because the
| factory in question is in Xinjiang.
|
| This is a masterpiece of weasel-wording.
| curtis3389 wrote:
| They have a zero tolerance in their particular factories, but
| is China just shuffling workers around to make sure they
| don't send the slaves to Apple factories?
|
| Apple is still making products in Hitler's Germany because
| the prices are too good to say no. Just because they aren't
| using the concentration camp labor doesn't mean they aren't
| complicit in the crimes. They're in the same boat as Fanta
| from my perspective. Doing business with murderers because
| money is more important than human lives.
| esarbe wrote:
| Yes.
|
| I don't get the downvotes here. Has anyone missed news
| about the concentration camps build for Uigurs[0]?
|
| [0] https://freebeacon.com/national-security/satellite-
| images-re...
| dr-detroit wrote:
| the average hackernews reader has 8 to 10 apple devices
| in their household
| __m wrote:
| Don't trivialize nazi concentration camps by comparing them
| to some re-education camps. I highly doubt the number of
| deaths that occurred in these camps is anywhere close to
| the deaths that Apple's home country caused in its own war
| on terror, including torture and war crimes. With police
| brutality and the highest incarceration rate in the world,
| how can a company that values human lives do business in
| the US?
| skinkestek wrote:
| We shouldn't trivialize nazi atrocities.
|
| However we also shouldn't trivialize Chinese atrocities:
|
| A number of the things that happens there will hopefully
| get into the history wall of shame as soon as we dare
| challenge it.
|
| We are however in a rough place right now IMO:
|
| - US is weak and has little (but still significant) moral
| edge.
|
| - US has a military edge but a full scale conflict will
| >70% become really messy (think nuclear)
|
| - China has a number of other countries (and influential
| persons) around the world by the b*lls.
|
| - China has an advantage on manufacturing and logistics
|
| Anyone who wants to fix this
|
| - either needs a brilliant idea and probably lots of luck
|
| - or some serious skills in politics (to get local
| support for taking correct actions with the necessary
| firmness)
| jp_sc wrote:
| "Re-education camps" aren't they? They can call them
| "happy unicorn camps" and they will be still
| concentration camps. They use them as slave labor and
| human organ farms.
|
| How on Earth, can you even try to gaslight us saying
| China concentration camps are "nicer" than the Nazis?
| kortilla wrote:
| Wow the desperation it takes to try to misdirect the
| conversation camps to the "war on terror". Right out of a
| whataboutism propaganda playbook.
|
| A citizen of any regime, from the best to the most
| brutal, can criticize China and it does not detract from
| the argument at all. It's not hypocritical because
| citizens are not the government; and, even if it was
| directly from the government and was hypocritical, the
| substance of the argument does not change. Calling
| someone a hypocrite is just an ad hominem.
| __m wrote:
| Misdirect? The camps are China's war on terror, a
| comparison is appropriate.
| orange_joe wrote:
| I don't believe that quoting a PR spokesperson is a
| meaningful response, Apple is obviously a biased party in
| this investigation. Moreover, Apple has opposed the Uyghur
| Forced Labor Prevention Act which would penalize companies
| with forced labor in their supply chains[1]. It also has a
| history of similar accusations with regards to their LCD
| screens [2] and their uniforms [3]. All of this is completely
| ignoring their history with foxconn and other suppliers that
| routinely abuse their employees without compelling their
| labor through outright force. Apple might say that they care
| about this issue, but its clear that their supply chain is
| setup to take advantage of poor workers from 3rd world
| countries at a minimum.
|
| [1] https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/23/anti-forced-labour-bill-
| apple... [2] https://9to5mac.com/2020/03/02/apple-suppliers-
| implicated-in... [3] https://9to5mac.com/2020/08/10/apple-
| store-staff-t-shirts/
| esarbe wrote:
| Why the downvotes? These are reasonable arguments.
| corty wrote:
| Truth hurts. Voting on HN does not judge the quality of a
| text, it often just point out whether people like it for
| various reasons.
| esarbe wrote:
| They used to, it was the reason I'm exclusively on HN..
| say_it_as_it_is wrote:
| There's a Netflix documentary about the garlic industry where
| among other concerns journalists reveal that peeled garlic from
| China is the product of prison slave labor. Many of the prisoners
| work their hands raw and continue to cut garlic ends with their
| teeth. Prisoners have a daily quota with punishment for not
| meeting it.
|
| I haven't come across peeled garlic that wasn't from China or was
| unlabeled. So, I stopped buying it entirely.
| henvic wrote:
| Thanks for the insight. Do you have a great reference?
|
| https://www.ft.com/content/1416a056-833b-11e7-94e2-c5b903247...
| might be a reference.
| say_it_as_it_is wrote:
| Netflix show "Rotten", Season 1, Episode "Garlic Breath".
| It's been a hotly contested episode. I haven't seen any
| debate about the peeled garlic, though.
| zupreme wrote:
| "Forced Labor" is an active form of "Slavery". "Detention" is a
| passive form of "Slavery".
|
| So the choice at hand is Slavery vs, Slavery.
|
| A note to the pedantic among us: I did not say "Chattel Slavery",
| "Modern Slavery", or any other modifiers. The Cambridge English
| dictionary defines slavery as "The activity of legally owning
| other people who are forced to work for or obey you" and "The
| condition of being legally owned by someone else and forced to
| work for or obey them".
|
| I think we can safely say that this case applies, specifically
| because, in that country, this system of activity is "Legal".
| tehjoker wrote:
| The US state is promoting these stories because they want Apple
| to reduce its dependency on China so they can more easily conduct
| their trade war.
| judge2020 wrote:
| But it's not really something they can do (and the Trump
| administration knows this), so this is probably just routine
| Apple bashing while everyone else also uses China and probably
| cares a lot less about their supply chain as long as they get
| their product after ample QC.
| tehjoker wrote:
| It also occurs to me that targeting someone like Apple also
| makes smaller players rethink their operations too.
| jskrn wrote:
| What always surprises me in discussions on this topic is that
| many (seemingly) Chinese-origin commenters are bewildered that
| anyone opposes China's behavior. They've fully bought into the
| CCP narrative that the Govt is merely making the best decision
| for a lazy and unproductive people. Stripping people of the
| ability to choose their identity, stripping them of freedom of
| thought, stripping them of language and culture, stripping them
| of choice itself because their primary purpose is industrial
| output is wrong. I have no illusions that outside forces will
| change China's practices, but I don't see how they build a
| harmonious and prosperous society long term while doing what
| they're doing to large chunks of their population. So much of
| western innovation is based on immigrants ability to leave
| repressive govts for freedom of thought and practice. Will China
| ever be able to move from copying IP and manufacturing for others
| into inventing for itself?
| medicineman wrote:
| All the hand-wringing and pedantry in this thread, just to defend
| China and Apple.
| nudpiedo wrote:
| How did you decide that? HN has always been pedantry, many
| actual questions are valid even if they discuss semantics or
| validity of the sources. It is the way HN always has been
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| datenarsch wrote:
| ...but but others are doing it too, so you can't blame Apple for
| it!!!1
| person_of_color wrote:
| What the fuck is Apple doing here. They could see an iPhone
| boycott if this blows up.
| esarbe wrote:
| They can rely on the consumers to just shut their eyes and go
| "lalala". It's been working so far and as long Apple doesn't
| get 'old', none of the influencers will try to call Apple out.
|
| Capitalism working at its best; collect all the surplus and
| make somebody else pay for it.
| bdcravens wrote:
| Others like HTC have also been accused of doing the same. You
| could put "Google Pixel" in the title.
| bitcharmer wrote:
| > They could see an iPhone boycott if this blows
|
| Do you really expect a typical Apple user to actually care?
| rangoon626 wrote:
| Yes
| bitcharmer wrote:
| You might get heavily disappointed then.
| simonh wrote:
| Apple clearly does have a responsibility here, they acknowledge
| that themselves in their supplier policies. They have also
| taken steps previously to drop suppliers that have been found
| to use forced labour, so they're aware of the problem and
| willing to take action.
|
| So the question here is what is the evidence, what does it
| show, and if Apple's inspections have missed anything how can
| they improve their policies and enforcement actions to ensure
| it doesn't happen again.
| lmilcin wrote:
| Isn't it obvious? It is cheaper.
| f6v wrote:
| It's cute that so many HN readers consider this accusation to be
| true. However I'd like to remind you that China and USA are
| engaged in a modern edition of Cold War. I'd argue it's naive to
| think that such reports can't possibly be part of this war.
| TheKarateKid wrote:
| It is wreckless to compare the Chinese media -- which is
| controlled and censored by the CCP -- to the US media which the
| government has little/no control or punishment over what they
| publish. At worst, Western media has bias from those in the
| media, not the government itself.
| bllguo wrote:
| Westerners bring up this lack of _overt_ government control
| as some kind of end-all, be-all argument. Realistically it
| doesn 't matter, practically speaking. The bias is there
| regardless. Didn't stop people reporting about WMDs in Iraq,
| isn't stopping the flurry of misinformation about China
| currently, etc. The comparison is completely fair
| tracyhenry wrote:
| ^^ I read both US and Chinese media. It's mind boggling how
| BOTH sides try to draw a bad picture of the other side, usually
| with baseless accusations. The media has definitely become a
| political weapon. Sad that many people don't realize this. I
| took all these kind of articles, from both sides, with a grain
| of salt.
| AnthonyWnC wrote:
| I wouldn't believe anything that any Western MSMs write about
| China; they are basically zero credibility given the amount of
| fake news that they put out. It also doesn't take much critical
| thinking to realize the narrative that they have been pushing to
| the general public.
| yellow_lead wrote:
| Database of many missing or detained Uyghurs is available here:
| https://shahit.biz/eng/
|
| It's very upsetting to see companies such as Apple, H&M, etc
| using forced labor.
| esarbe wrote:
| Why the downvotes?
| [deleted]
| bitcharmer wrote:
| I've seen this more and more lately. Sometimes I feel here
| like I'm on reddit.
| gu5 wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.hml (last
| paragraph)
| esarbe wrote:
| I'm used to having good and productive exchanges on HN.
| This development makes me sad.
| LatteLazy wrote:
| I'm amazed the world isn't taking more action on China. Its quite
| sad really, 20 years ago, any one of the headlines from this year
| would have prompted sanctions and denunciations...
| jeswin wrote:
| The problem is that Europe has no appetite for any sort of
| confrontation. Their leadership in peace and climate
| initiatives mask how little they're willing to do to address
| issues which have a potential body-bag cost. They have poured
| hundreds of billions of dollars every year into a dictatorship
| with no accountability and its military. And shifting all that
| industrial capacity out of Europe certainly made it look
| greener, with all the smoke out of sight.
|
| If China becomes militarily stronger and Xi's domestic position
| weakens, war will be his first resort. If Taiwan had to be
| defended, there will be very little help coming from Europe.
| LatteLazy wrote:
| I've been pleased with how the EU has made progress with
| Iran. Maybe that plus brexit, Russia and refugees has been
| too much for them. We'll see I guess.
| okprod wrote:
| Are you also amazed the world didn't take action against the US
| under Trump?
| LatteLazy wrote:
| No. Trump has done basically nothing and hasn't managed to
| run a mini holocaust, crush democracy in one corner of his
| realm, launch a preventable global pandemic and engage
| another nuclear power in direct military conflict.
|
| For all his evil, he's not effective. Xi Jinping is what
| Trump dreamed of being...
| Dumblydorr wrote:
| There is genocide going on against Muslims, and the US would
| typically denounce religious genocide. The current president
| seems more concerned with watching Fox and pardoning his
| friends than handling Muslim rights issues.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Pompeo has raised the issue, even if it's not out of delicacy
| to Muslims
| baybal2 wrote:
| > I'm amazed the world isn't taking more action on China. Its
| quite sad really, 20 years ago, any one of the headlines from
| this year would have prompted sanctions and denunciations...
|
| Why would world politicians take any actions against China when
| so many of them do have a finger in the honeypot themselves?
|
| Invalidate stock shares* of all companies who made untold
| billions on China, and you will see that a huge double digit of
| Western politicians will go broke overnight.
|
| The one sole reason the West was so eager to jump on the China
| train unlike any other broke harebrained communist country was
| because China went from the start to openly bribing Western
| elites.
|
| The reason why China is not Iraq now is that.
| swordsmith wrote:
| > The one sole reason the West was so eager to jump on the
| China train unlike any other broke harebrained communist
| country was because China went from the start to openly
| bribing Western elites.
|
| This is very accurate. Recent example is the implied Biden
| family in CCP's pocket [1][2].
|
| [1] Prof. Di Dongsheng's national televised speech that has
| since been taken down: https://youtu.be/aeegrkPx0xE [2]
| https://www.thestandard.com.hk/breaking-
| news/section/6/16084...
| nlitened wrote:
| What would "invalidating stocks" even mean?
| baybal2 wrote:
| Here, invalidate stock shares
| nlitened wrote:
| Yeah, but what does it mean? To revoke ownership of the
| company from its owners? Who then gets to own the company
| and why?
|
| Or does it mean the company should cease to exist, and
| all employees should be fired immediately? We should deny
| honest people from getting their salaries?
| baybal2 wrote:
| To declare their shares of having no more legal power
| than toilet paper.
| nlitened wrote:
| But owning shares mean owning a part of a company? Does
| that mean that when a company's shares are invalidated,
| then the company is now worth zero, and anybody can buy
| it for a penny? Are the owners forced to sell everything
| for a penny, or they are allowed to choose, when to sell
| and at what price?
|
| Why would the price be different from current stock
| price?
| baybal2 wrote:
| One way, or another, whomever owned the company through
| shares gets his wallet lightened by the amount of shares
| gone.
|
| They will think twice before bidding on something this
| underhanded again.
| insulanus wrote:
| If you delist a company in country B, you stop all
| investment in that company, and you create a chilling
| effect on future investment.
|
| No change in company ownership.
|
| Business carries on in country A. People can get new
| jobs.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _The reason why China is not Iraq now is that._
|
| And nuclear weapons. Don't forget the elephant in the room.
| China has nukes, which severely limits the pressure the West
| can put on it.
| traveler01 wrote:
| Thats what happens when you're a country with deep pockets
| apparently.
| naruvimama wrote:
| China has reached it's Hiroshima moment
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj_mEiMvPMI
| [deleted]
| delecti wrote:
| There's sadly a pretty long history of the international
| community ignoring atrocities as long as they're contained
| within a country. The answer to "why won't we recognize
| <genocide>?" is usually "because the victims were from the same
| country as the perpetrators".
| drocer88 wrote:
| Tibet, Mongolia and Turkestan, though occupied by past and
| current Chinese governments, are different countries than
| China.
| MaxHoppersGhost wrote:
| We let China get too big without modernizing/democratizing.
| Massive foreign policy failure by the western world. Now they
| appear too big to reign in and everyone (except maybe the US)
| is scared of them and just wants to play nice.
| Dumblydorr wrote:
| We "let" them get too big? They are an ancient society who
| have had millions of inhabitants for centuries. They were
| already big, huge in fact. In the wake of Mao, however, they
| have a one party communist system that exterminated it's
| intellectual and critical class decades ago. Hard to see what
| could've been done during the Cold War, we tried the domino
| theory which was a colossal failure in Korea and Vietnam and
| Laos.
| MaxHoppersGhost wrote:
| We let them get too big economically. We let them into the
| western world trading economy under the hope that they
| would normalize into a western-like democracy with liberal
| ideals. That has obviously failed.
| throw_m239339 wrote:
| > I'm amazed the world isn't taking more action on China. Its
| quite sad really, 20 years ago, any one of the headlines from
| this year would have prompted sanctions and denunciations...
|
| I don't think so. Nothing happened with Tibet, or after the
| Tiananmen Square event AFAIK.
|
| 20 years ago, the people that signed all the trade deals with
| countries such as China claimed it would lead to improving
| democracy and human rights there, obviously, it didn't,
| People's Republic of China has never been more autocratic.
| Ethical and moral concerns should have been addressed when
| China joined the WTO in 2001, irregardless China's political
| structure. China got a very good deal, western industrials as
| well, but at what human cost?
|
| I wasn't interested in economy at the time, but I still
| remember clearly debates on talkshows between human rights
| advocates and people pushing trade deals and their arguments,
| it was a time where you could still publicly talk about the
| situation in Tibet. Today? Nobody would even dare.
| dirtyid wrote:
| > obviously, it didn't
|
| Of course it did, in Kishore Mahbuani's words:
|
| >The greatest explosion of personal freedoms that the Chinese
| people have experienced in the past 4,000 years has taken
| place in the last 40 years
|
| There's some slide back in some categories from Hu Jintao
| era, but overall things are progressing. The west fixates on
| the 1% of extra bad when it's been mostly great.
|
| >what human cost?
|
| 800m uplifted from poverty, a few million minorities gets
| shafted, to be crass: the cost was/is negligible all things
| considered. Post 90s China bad, but mostly good. Overwhelming
| good compared to others with similar starting positions and
| much better development conditions, i.e. China had some of
| the most onerous WTO accession protocols and sanctions that
| held back her development.
| insulanus wrote:
| It is an excellent point that the well managed Chinese
| economy and PR apparatus has helped the average Chinese
| citizen.
|
| You would be singing a different tune if you were to come
| under Chinese rule.
| dirtyid wrote:
| I worked in China under Chinese rule, there's
| frustrations, but it was mostly fine. Know / related to
| many Chinese nationals, spectrum from FLG practitioners
| to purged officials. From rich coastal provinces to poor
| inland ones. China's a stressful place, everyone bitches
| about how things are, the loudest from their multi
| million dollar tier1 condos. But almost no one wants to
| go back to Mao days, except the FLG practitioner because
| they missed ideological purity of the old party. People
| can sing whatever, and if you believe the recent Harvard
| surveys, they sing mostly good things. The fact that
| they're singing in the first place is unparalleled
| freedom compared to Mao times where private speech got
| you fucked, i.e. what the Uyghurs are going through now,
| which is to say 99% of the country has moved past that.
| It's an unambiguous improvement. First ever civil code
| just passed this year as well.
|
| It's only been 30 years, about how long it took
| Taiwan/Korea to liberalize, except things take longer
| when you have 1.4B people and antagonism from global
| superpower. Taiwan/Korean dictatorship got unambiguous
| and sustained US support. Under Xi, it's 2 steps forward
| and 1 step back. Realistically it's is 5 steps forward
| and 1 step back, but west likes to paint that 1 step as a
| chasm.
| MarkSweep wrote:
| You mean the "People's Republic of China", right? The
| "Republic of China" is more commonly known as "Taiwan".
| LatteLazy wrote:
| Tiananmen was at least met with lasting arms embargo, both
| from the EU and US...
|
| I think the expectation for many (myself included) was that
| as living standards rose, the Chinese people would demand
| democratic reform (rule of law, justice for all, some say in
| decisions and leadership). China (or rather the ccp) has
| successfully avoided that so far.
|
| Now its flexing that power and people like me, who expected
| natural change, are forced to re-evaluate.
|
| mea culpa
| quasse wrote:
| > the republic of China has never been more autocratic
|
| This is a more nuanced issue than it might seem in some ways
| though. I have some first hand experience since many of my
| coworkers are native Chinese living in different parts of
| China.
|
| Trade has enabled the growth of a previously non-existent
| middle class in China and they have started to assert
| political power in ways not immediately apparent to
| Westerners.
|
| One example is the "Beijing smog" that everyone knows about.
| The Chinese middle class are becoming unwilling to tolerate
| the total environmental devastation that was the norm two
| decades ago. They have put a lot of pressure on the CCP to
| keep the air cleaner and as a result many dirty industries
| like iron casting have had a huge number of restrictions put
| on them in the last 5 years. I would consider this a direct
| result of the political willpower of the Chinese people.
|
| In my experience though, the reason things like the treatment
| of the Uyghurs or Tibetans have not changed is simply because
| the average Chinese person does not care or wish to rock the
| boat.
|
| Before you finger wag about that, consider the American
| treatment of South American migrants that has come into the
| spotlight in the last 4 years. I would say that the reason it
| has not changed has the same root cause. The average American
| does not care, or silently approves and thus there is not
| enough pressure on the ruling party to produce change.
| 9HZZRfNlpR wrote:
| What's with illegal migrants and US? You're from Europe
| like me do you even realize we dump them to remote islands
| to live in shitty camps and illegal immigration is not
| tolerated anywhere in Europe? Are you clueless or
| intellectually dishonest? Either way it doesn't look good.
| throwaway3699 wrote:
| > Before you finger wag about that, consider the American
| treatment of South American migrants that has come into the
| spotlight in the last 4 years.
|
| South American migrants are treat fine, just not those who
| break in illegally (we can agree to differ if that's fair
| or not). I'm sorry but this is just not comparable to a
| possible genocide of the Uyghurs.
| swordsmith wrote:
| > American treatment of South American migrants
|
| Migrants, or illegal immigrants?
| colejohnson66 wrote:
| "Illegal immigrant" is a loaded word used to push a
| narrative that they aren't worth caring about. "They
| knowingly broke the law, so fsck them!" It conveniently
| ignores the fact that immigration has been made harder
| over the years and that not everyone can afford it.
| People don't come to America to break the law; they come
| here for a better life, but we force them to suffer in
| the _multi year_ long process. Not to mention that US law
| _mandates_ that asylum seekers are not turned away at the
| gate (they can be later, just not right away), but
| there's many videos of border patrol denying asylum
| seekers refuge.
| adrr wrote:
| Against the largest consumer/retail market in world? Not going
| to happen at the country level and risk reciprocal economic
| restrictions.
|
| Only way to get china to change is have people vote with their
| wallets and refuse to buy Chinese made stuff but at the end of
| the day people just don't care and just want cheap stuff.
|
| If you gave someone a choice between $100 IPhone made by slave
| child labor and $1000 IPhone that was made humane conditions at
| fair wages, i am willing to bet more than 75% of people take
| the $100 IPhone.
| powerapple wrote:
| I will buy the phone made by slave child labour because the
| only reason they exist is because economy, if they make
| money, at least their next generation can live a better life.
| It is not likely that without a factory they will study and
| go to college like you would think. The alternative to a bad
| choice may be a worse choice, not a better choice.
| powerapple wrote:
| I have to state a fact that there is no child labour in
| China. Were their child labour before? Maybe some. My uncle
| left home when he was 14 to work in a factory. 40-50 years
| ago. Nowadays, the earliest age you can find real jobs is
| probably 16. So no, you don't find a child labour made
| iPhone. But if there is child labour somewhere, you either
| find a not-worst-case solution or you get him out of there.
| And you have to think from his point of view, understand
| his circumstances.
| lern_too_spel wrote:
| The $1000 iPhone is made with slave labor. There are Korean
| and Taiwanese phones that are not made with slave labor.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| But we're actually buying $1000 slave iPhones with Apple
| shareholders getting the workers' wages.
| bjelkeman-again wrote:
| It becomes really inconvenient when you have outsourced so much
| of your manufacturing there. Who is going to make your stuff
| then? (Maybe something we should have thought of before this,
| but then China took a turn towards more authoritarian under the
| current CCP chairman.)
| incrudible wrote:
| China is now itself outsourcing to cheaper countries, because
| Chinese labor has become expensive. Supply chains become
| flexible when the incentives are there. I think the Trump
| tariffs were on the right track, but for the wrong reasons.
| insulanus wrote:
| Yes, the Trump tariffs show that there are one or two
| things that China will respond to.
|
| It seems unlikely that the US or the EU will want to pay
| the cost in the short term.
| eznzt wrote:
| Why should I believe what the "Tech Transparency Project" (funded
| by Open Society Foundations) says over what Apple and China say?
| Honest question.
| xyst wrote:
| because investigations performed by the companies or
| governments themselves tend to portray themselves as not
| culpable for any actions (often omitting pertinent details).
| Independent review is the only way to be honest.
| eznzt wrote:
| These reviews are not necessarily independent. If they don't
| yield any results the organisations lose their funding. So
| they have the incentive to be as dishonest as Apple and China
| are.
| esarbe wrote:
| No, they don't.
|
| China and Apple have their reputation to protect, so they
| have a very high stake in the game.
|
| The Tech Transparency Project's goal is to uncover
| misconduct and malfeasance in public life. They don't have
| to 'prove' any wrongdoing with regards to Apple or China.
| If their research with regards to Apple or Chine doesn't
| pan out, they have many, many more potential targets
| without danger of losing any funding at all.
| threatofrain wrote:
| But this is just a mitigating argument, and even in this
| framing Apple and China seem like very big targets.
| bbarn wrote:
| but - not being able to conduct its investigation doesn't
| automatically cause China to be in the wrong. More evidence
| is needed here. (Independent review being disallowed
| nationally is a bigger concern I will admit)
| esarbe wrote:
| In cases like there were actually investigating can land
| the people doing the investigating in prison, I think
| proceed according to the cautionary principle.
|
| So, if a tyrannical dictatorship like China is accused of
| abusing human rights and said tyrannical dictatorship is
| not willing to let people investigate the claims, we can
| accept the accusations as true until aforementioned
| tyrannical dictatorship is willing to let people
| investigate.
|
| No need for 'in dubio pro reo' in such cases.
| f6v wrote:
| > tyrannical dictatorship
|
| I honestly think that's a bit too far.
| threeseed wrote:
| Agreed that it is a bit too far. Emphasis on the bit.
|
| It is a de-facto dictatorship and it is tyrannical by
| many definitions.
| ardy42 wrote:
| >> tyrannical dictatorship
|
| > I honestly think that's a bit too far.
|
| Tyrannical oligarchy moving towards dictatorship, then.
| Better?
| esarbe wrote:
| Thanks for the effort, but I think I really would like to
| stick with 'tyrannical dictatorship'. For me, it just
| fits better.
| esarbe wrote:
| Is it, though?
|
| About the dictatorship we don't need to have a
| discussion, do we?
|
| The "tyrannic" part: A tyrant is an absolute ruler who is
| unrestrained by law. This pretty much describes the
| Chinese Communist Party. Critics are silenced, dissidents
| are disappeared, non-han-chinese are robbed of their
| heritage. (See the Uigurs or the Mongols.) Even if you
| don't violate the law, you'll get punished through it[0].
| There's massive corruption and people's rights are
| violated in routine and international agreements are
| ignored (see Hong Kong).
|
| Yeah, I think the shoe fits.
|
| [0] https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2020-12
| -04/chi...
| onethought wrote:
| That fits the US foot as well...
|
| - Native peoples destruction (robbed of heritage)
|
| - Spying on allies (breaks international agreements)
|
| - Lobbyists and presidential pardons (massive corruption)
| ksk wrote:
| The US peoples voted into power a President who pardons
| war criminals. And the next incoming President supports
| (or has supported in the past) wars and bombings which
| cost the lives of countless non-combatants. Which places
| has China bombed? If the claim is China has lots its
| moral standing, then The US is not on any firmer moral
| ground either.
| esarbe wrote:
| Thanks for the downvotes, it was a good conversation.
| cgb223 wrote:
| Who is behind the Open Society Foundation?
|
| Anyone super political?
| syedkarim wrote:
| George Soros
| jiofih wrote:
| What an answer to "anyone super political?" :D
| theon144 wrote:
| Honest question in return, why should I distrust it?
|
| The claims seem to be roughly in line with many other reports
| about the Xinjiang region, China's government and worker
| conditions in the tech sector.
|
| Is there something you are implying?
| spoopyskelly wrote:
| You trust everything you read?
| ksk wrote:
| Can you please list a few news and public policy research
| organizations you find trustworthy? That will make it easier
| for everyone to reply to you.
| barnacled wrote:
| And yet Tim Cook has the cheek to get 'woke'. Apple could easily
| afford to build everything in a country that isn't an awful
| dictatorship running concentration camps and still earn obscene
| profits.
|
| And yet they still somehow maintain this aura of being the 'good
| guys'...
| terr-dav wrote:
| Apple is a capitalist enterprise; Apple can only afford to
| maximize profit -- everything else is just window dressing.
|
| Wokeness, philanthropy, environmental consciousness, branding,
| origin story, etc.; all of these things are viewed favorably by
| the cultural mode. Therefore, you should expect capitalists to
| appropriate them to distract from, or justify, the profits they
| make and the concentrated power they enjoy as a result (i.e.
| labor exploitation, control over consumer choices, influence in
| the market, lobbying for legislation, dictating the terms of
| contracts with vendors)
|
| Apple isn't the problem, it's behaving how it's supposed to in
| the market capitalist system that currently dominates the
| world. This cruelty is inevitable in capitalism.
| anshumankmr wrote:
| Hey he added his pronouns on Twitter and is gay, so that should
| make up for everything right?
|
| /s
| zm262 wrote:
| I guess this kind of news paints the wrong picture, or more
| likely to believe in this kind of thing. The more likely case
| is that, there are a bunch of people who are unemployable
| having no skills or lack motivations to work or happen to be in
| miserable conditions (like the homeless in US) were forced
| (yes) to enter this kind of "de-radicalization camps",
| monitored (yes) and _given_ an opportunity to get employment
| (like an internship for students) and get _paid_ the market
| salary. Yes they were forced to have a job that they can
| potentially do (the work conditions are like other "normal"
| apple factory workers). If they decline, well they need to go
| back to the "school"..
| insulanus wrote:
| I translated your comment.
|
| > The more likely case is that, there are a bunch of people
| who are unemployable having no skills or lack motivations to
| work or happen to be in miserable conditions (like the
| homeless in US) were forced (yes) to enter this kind of "de-
| radicalization camps", monitored (yes) and _given_ an
| opportunity to get employment (like an internship for
| students) and get _paid_ the market salary. Yes they were
| forced to have a job that they can potentially do (the work
| conditions are like other "normal" apple factory workers). If
| they decline, well they need to go back to the "school"..
|
| This news makes it more likely to believe in this kind of
| thing.
| insulanus wrote:
| zm262, I improvedthe grammar in your comment.
|
| > The more likely case is that, there are a bunch of people
| who are unemployable having no skills or lack motivations
| to work or happen to be in miserable conditions (like the
| homeless in US) were forced (yes) to enter this kind of
| "de-radicalization camps", monitored (yes) and _given_ an
| opportunity to get employment (like an internship for
| students) and get _paid_ the market salary. Yes they were
| forced to have a job that they can potentially do (the work
| conditions are like other "normal" apple factory workers).
| If they decline, well they need to go back to the
| "school"..
|
| Unfortunately, the free flow of uncensored news has made
| you aware of something I don't want you to know.
|
| These people are no help to themselves, and do not want to
| do what the government tells them to do, even though it
| would be greatly beneficial. They are monitored, of course,
| as all radicals should be. The US has no right to complain.
| After all, they also have useless, dirty homeless people,
| which are pretty much the same thing.. Furthermore, these
| prisoners are even paid for their work! What more do they
| want!?
|
| If they decline, they should be sent back to their
| interment camps.
| someelephant wrote:
| If you could trade some of your certainty for empathy both
| you and the `unemployables` would be much better off.
| nabla9 wrote:
| It's called Public Relations (aka propaganda)
| mgh2 wrote:
| Apple's magic (i.e. brainwashing) clearly seems to work!
| Talyen42 wrote:
| Apple's supply chain is more than 1,000 companies. Do you
| really think Apple has the expertise and personnel to replicate
| what 1,000 companies have spent decades mastering? Not likely.
|
| No company on earth has ever been able to make a smartphone
| entirely themselves, and no company ever will, although i'd
| like to be proven wrong.
| AndrewUnmuted wrote:
| Perhaps the OP's point was missed here.
|
| Pointing out that no company can make the entire smartphone
| by themselves is all well and good. The OP was applying that
| wisdom to the "woke" culture Cook is seeking to solidify
| within Apple.
|
| It's just as unrealistic for Apple to be woke as it is for
| them to make the whole phone by themselves. They love
| existing under that banner, though, because it succeeds in
| tricking many people into believing they can use iPhones and
| avoid being hypocrites.
| desiarnezjr wrote:
| The point of any kind of messaging is to broadcast intent
| and is always at least a little aspirational. That's the
| first step.
|
| I'd honestly be far more wary about companies who doesn't
| broadcast anything, just to make whatever profit at
| whatever cost. Any Chinese phone brand right now (correct
| me if I'm wrong) or companies like Huawei or Lenovo, where,
| like it or not would have that approach to business
| possibly baked into their DNA.
| lumost wrote:
| Most companies can and do prioritize vendors who meet non-
| monetary criteria. Apple can easily ask vendors to complete
| external ethics audits, these audits usually request
| information on each vendors suppliers, suppliers of
| suppliers, etc.
|
| Apple absolutely has control over who they buy from in this
| regard. Failing their willingness to act the US federal
| government has the authority to enforce labor law parity with
| trading partners through trade negotiations, tariffs, and
| bans.
| CydeWeys wrote:
| > Apple's supply chain is more than 1,000 companies.
|
| And whose choice was that? Apple has chosen to do business
| with all of these companies and they have chosen to
| consistently do business in China even despite the long
| history of China's violations of human rights abuses. Of
| course Apple is responsible for their choices of who to do
| business with!
| tyingq wrote:
| I do think they have the market share and leverage to strong
| arm those 1000 companies into reasonable labor conditions.
| ada1981 wrote:
| Yes. Plus they can lobby governments for increased
| standards so their competition doesn't benefit from their
| higher standards.
| imglorp wrote:
| > Do you really think Apple has the expertise and personnel
| to replicate what 1,000 companies have spent decades
| mastering?
|
| Yes absolutely. They do supply chain all day, every day: in
| order to keep high quality, they need to be in tight control.
| They're very, very good at outsourced manufacture or they
| wouldn't be a US$1T company.
|
| Foxconn was only the first to reach our awareness but it
| seems there's many other vendors with dubious HR.
| xbmcuser wrote:
| Apple annual income is more than the annual budgets of many
| countries they don't need to make everything themselves but
| they can have few thousand trained inspectors which monitor
| all the places where it products are being produced. If they
| are able to keep new phone designs months into production
| secret they are also capable of monitoring and finding about
| worker abuse.
| cghendrix wrote:
| But think about the abuse of the shareholders! The horror
| izacus wrote:
| > Apple's supply chain is more than 1,000 companies. Do you
| really think Apple has the expertise and personnel to
| replicate what 1,000 companies have spent decades mastering?
| Not likely.
|
| As one of the richest corporations on the planet which always
| smugly tells everyone how nice they are and how much they
| respect people?
|
| Yes, fuck yes. They're not a mom and pop shop. They're a
| corporation that finds millions to lobby governments against
| making your electronics repairable. They can redirect those
| to paying the manufacturing workers directly.
| emteycz wrote:
| Why should a business be doing the job of a government and
| multinational governmental organisations such as the UN?
| geodel wrote:
| > As one of the richest corporations on the planet ..
|
| Huh, they are richest because they are not swamped with
| mass manufacturing and all issues that come with it.
| jbay808 wrote:
| Foxconn (also known as Hon Hai Precision Industry Co)
| makes pretty good money for themselves, too.
| raffraffraff wrote:
| As the Daleks put it, "EXTERNALIZE!"
| danudey wrote:
| One of the reasons Jobs cited as being an important factor
| for locating in China is the availability of _skilled_
| labor. It would have taken them years to hire enough
| industrial engineers to handle the scope and scale and
| volume that the iPhone required in the US, if they could
| even manage it at all, but only weeks to do so in China.
|
| The supply chain is also important. One person who worked
| in Shenzhen commented that, as a manufacturer, if you
| suddenly discover you need a certain kind or size or shape
| or length of screw, you can have a shipment at your door
| the same day, because the factory that produces a thousand
| different kinds of screws is just down the road.
|
| To move to the US, they'd either have to replicate most of
| that manufacturing in the US, which would take decades and
| be extremely expensive, or deal with a week of latency
| every time they need a new or different part as they get it
| shipped from China anyway, making most of this process
| moot.
|
| Yes, Apple should do something about this issue, and yes
| it's horrible to imagine them profiting off this with their
| "nice guy" image, but keep in mind that if they did this
| and increased the cost of the iPhone, other companies
| wouldn't, and it would put Apple at a huge disadvantage.
|
| One thing we've seen over the last century of western
| civilization is that cheaper wins over better. Cheaper
| toasters that don't last, cheaper fridges that break down
| after their three-year warranty is up, cheaper laptops that
| come infected with bloatware and adware. If Apple refused
| to manufacture in China because of forced labour issues,
| then they'd lose out on sales to companies who kept
| benefitting from it, because consumers, as a whole, just
| don't give a shit.
|
| I mean, if anyone cared about what it takes to provide them
| with cheap products, they'd be enraged that Jeff Bezos is
| the richest man in the world even though the workers that
| run his company are subsisting on food stamps and burnout
| quotas.
|
| That said, Apple is working on moving production to India,
| and I'd wager that the more they can do that and expand
| their operations there, the less and less they'll deal with
| China for manufacturing, but right now no one who
| manufactures electronics in large volumes can do so without
| involving China.
|
| In the meantime, they can work on cutting this supplier out
| of their supply chain; the article is talking about only
| one of their suppliers, though a long-term supplier, and
| not actually people working for Apple or manufacturing
| iPhones directly, so hopefully they can draw a line in the
| sand and force Lens to either stop using forced labour or
| lose the contracts.
|
| Fingers crossed.
| barnacled wrote:
| Absolutely it would be very costly, absolutely the
| expertise might not even exist at scale in an alternative
| country, absolutely it would take effort and pain and a
| long time.
|
| But apple appear to, in the decades since the iPhone made
| them richer than many countries, have made zero effort
| whatsoever to address these issues.
|
| Having worked at an apple supplier that they bankrupted
| in order to make the process entirely in-house (one of
| many they've done that to) I just do not buy that they
| could not have taken steps to divest. Some. Any.
|
| Of course the issues are true of many other companies,
| but as I said in my original comment, the fact they
| portray some woke mentality (under which every single
| microscopic thing somebody does can be considered
| 'problematic') while continuing to take little to no
| action in divesting from a literally genocidal state
| which harvest organs says something about them.
|
| The combination of their outrageous markups (which
| _could_ permit a more costly but more ethical supply
| chain) due to which they'd not have to increase prices
| (and thus making them one of the most able to actually
| divest like that), their utterly ruthless business
| practices and their woke and patronising pandering makes
| them a particularly egregious case, so in my opinion far
| worse than the likes of amazon, etc. (not discounting bad
| things they do, just a matter of perspective).
| guessbest wrote:
| This doesn't sound like they are using skilled labor.
|
| > It suggests that iPhone glass supplier Lens Technology
| has been using Muslim minority Uighurs, who were given
| the stark choice of working in the company's plant or
| being sent to detention centers which have been likened
| to concentration camps
| nubb wrote:
| And yes we see how well this is working out with the
| recent uprising at the Indian iphone plant.
| racl101 wrote:
| > One of the reasons Jobs cited as being an important
| factor for locating in China is the availability of
| skilled labor. It would have taken them years to hire
| enough industrial engineers to handle the scope and scale
| and volume that the iPhone required in the US, if they
| could even manage it at all, but only weeks to do so in
| China.
|
| So, potentially, if the phones were made in the US they'd
| be like Ferraris? Very expensive and only a few made at a
| time?
| slovette wrote:
| You're going to get cherry picked apart for this, but as
| someone who has ran supply chains, been apart of product
| dev that involved early hardware design & dev and the
| necessary chain dev to build that design, you hit the
| nail on the head.
|
| Everyone wants a bad guy here, and apples logo with the
| billions behind it enable people to easily assign blame
| to that logo (not that they shouldn't). But what's
| forgotten is the massively complex "stack", if you will,
| that brings everything together. Just saying "oh this
| billion dollar company is terrible!" Is being lazy and
| doesn't contribute to a solution, all it does it make
| people feel entitled and validated because it doesn't
| take much real thought.
|
| The real problem at root is human/consumer behavior.
| Turning a logo into a fitting evil character borrowed
| from childhood cartoon narratives is not real.
|
| Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
| throwawaygh wrote:
| _> The real problem at root is human /consumer behavior.
| Turning a logo into a fitting evil character borrowed
| from childhood cartoon narratives is not real._
|
| If the real problem is human/consumer behavior, then any
| real solution requires changing how humans/consumers
| behave.
|
| A coordinated campaign to spoil good-will in any company
| that uses forced labor is an attempt at changing how
| humans/consumers behave, no?
| barnacled wrote:
| I think that's a very unfair assessment of my original
| comment and very dismissive.
|
| Do not make the mistake of thinking everybody who
| criticises a company like apple is naive as to the
| complexities and difficulties around supply chains at
| scale. I certain don't.
|
| Having literally worked for one of apple's suppliers who
| they bankrupted to bring the process in-house I have
| given this probably a lot more thought than you imagine.
|
| They have been trying to vertically integrate all
| suppliers as much as humanly possible for reasons of
| control, margin and competitive advantage. This has been
| apple's approach for many years and they have been
| utterly ruthless in doing so.
|
| If they had the will to start to take the steps to
| actually divest from a literally genocidal state, they
| could do it. They simply do not care.
|
| The part I do agree with you on is that they also know
| their customers do not care, and consumer awareness and
| action is a key part of pushing back on this kind of
| thing.
|
| But please do not absolve apple of guilt by waving your
| hands and saying the supply chain is too interdependent
| and complicated.
|
| If they can take steps to fuck over suppliers for profit
| and control, they can take steps to avoid slave labour.
| oarsinsync wrote:
| > One thing we've seen over the last century of western
| civilization is that cheaper wins over better. Cheaper
| toasters that don't last, cheaper fridges that break down
| after their three-year warranty is up, cheaper laptops
| that come infected with bloatware and adware. If Apple
| refused to manufacture in China because of forced labour
| issues, then they'd lose out on sales to companies who
| kept benefitting from it, because consumers, as a whole,
| just don't give a shit.
|
| Apple customers have made it very clear that as a whole,
| they are not price conscious. Better beats cheaper, or
| they'd be all using cheapo Android phones.
|
| Apple has very high profit margins compared to their
| competitors in the same industries. Apple can pay their
| suppliers more, rather than driving them down to the
| bone, which _of course_ results in workers being
| exploited.
|
| Or they could be more transparent that the only thing
| that matters is the size of their profits, instead of
| cultivating a good guy corporate image, as the hypocrisy
| stinks.
| justapassenger wrote:
| > One of the reasons Jobs cited as being an important
| factor for locating in China is the availability of
| skilled labor
|
| Highly skilled forced labor?
|
| Let's not kid ourselves - it's all about cost cutting.
| They're trying to diversify and move to another low wage
| country, India.
|
| Not - I'm not saying that China or India lacks skilled
| labor, or highly paid experts. But that's not why
| companies like Apple are there. They're there for cheap
| labor, and close to non-existent labor protections. But
| China is starting to change, so Apple is looking for new
| places.
|
| > Yes, Apple should do something about this issue, and
| yes it's horrible to imagine them profiting off this with
| their "nice guy" image, but keep in mind that if they did
| this and increased the cost of the iPhone, other
| companies wouldn't, and it would put Apple at a huge
| disadvantage.
|
| It's like saying that Google and Facebook should continue
| to disregard privacy, because their huge margins relay on
| that?
| nicoburns wrote:
| > Not - I'm not saying that China or India lacks skilled
| labor, or highly paid experts. But that's not why
| companies like Apple are there.
|
| I think it is partly. China in particular seems to have a
| depth, quality and volume of hardware engineering skills
| that isn't available anywhere else in the world. Maybe
| the US had this once, but as far as I can see: not
| anymore.
| [deleted]
| barnacled wrote:
| Interesting that large parts of that supply chain
| coincidentally operate in parts of the world which have
| extremely low wages and virtually no worker rights.
|
| Having worked at a company that Apple bankrupted in order to
| bring their work in-house I respectfully disagree that they
| lack the will or ability to avoid complicity with a genocidal
| totalitarian state.
| echelon wrote:
| If you buy an iPhone, you're complicit in human slavery.
|
| Period.
|
| Don't even try to explain yourself out of it.
| ogre_codes wrote:
| Then by extension if you buy any computer, consumer
| electronics, smartphone, manufactured toy, etc, you are
| complicit in human slavery.
|
| There are almost no computer or smartphone companies which do
| not participate in these markets. Samsung, Dell, HP, Lenovo
| (which is a Chinese company yet oddly gets ignored every time
| these discussions come up), Microsoft, LG, etc etc etc. All
| of them participate in these same industries. Most of them
| get little or no scrutiny even though they use many of the
| same supply lines Apple does and have far less in terms of
| transparency about their supply chain.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| And u/echelon was never seen in this thread again.
| desiarnezjr wrote:
| And almost every company on that list will use the same
| factories, supply chain, and probably labor. There are not
| that many ODM manufacturers that have enough scale and
| capability to build high precision electronics.
|
| That would be companies like Foxconn, Pegatron (from the
| same founders of Asus), Wistron, Compal, etc., etc.
| Basically every factory that manufactures your Dell, Asus,
| Samsung (?), etc.
| judge2020 wrote:
| Intel might just be the only company where there's a
| chance your chip is built in the US and thus uses the
| minimal amount of forced labor necessary to mine and ship
| the raw material.
| ogre_codes wrote:
| I don't think the issue is with the CPUs. For example
| TSMC is has always seemed pretty well clear of these
| issues as well. Forced labor is usually involved in
| mining for battery components, or mid-low skill tasks
| like assembly.
| bondarchuk wrote:
| > _Then by extension if you buy any computer, consumer
| electronics, smartphone, manufactured toy, etc, you are
| complicit in human slavery._
|
| Indeed. I really don't understand the lack of public and
| political will to end the largest slavery system ever to
| exist on earth (by which I mean the whole offshore
| manufacturing sphere, not just Uighurs in China).
| terr-dav wrote:
| I see your "each iPhone is an embodiment of slavery" and
| raise you a "there is no ethical consumption under
| capitalism".
|
| Slavery is endemic to capitalism; the capitalists have just
| figured out how to cover it up with their immense wealth and
| power.
| hypersoar wrote:
| I don't get the downvotes on this. Well, okay, I do, but it's
| not wrong. It's hard to buy _anything_ without supporting
| odious practices somewhere in the supply chain. The incentive
| is to get costs as low as possible, and globalism let 's
| companies put all the bad stuff far enough away that the
| consumers don't care.
|
| I understand if you still want to buy smartphones--I'm typing
| this one one--but do it with h your eyes open. "Because it's
| a buzzkill" is not a good reason to ignore it. And if it
| bothers you, we should do something about it, like lobbying
| politicians, supporting labor unions, and raising awareness.
|
| Well, I guess that last one will just get you downvotes
| Talyen42 wrote:
| please list smartphones i can buy that have no suppliers with
| any history of human rights issues thank you
| holstvoogd wrote:
| Maybe fairphone?
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| https://www.fairphone.com/
|
| https://www.pine64.org/, to my knowledge.
| ratww wrote:
| Interesting, I wasn't aware of Fairphone. Here's their
| supplier list btw, in case anyone wants to check out:
|
| https://www.fairphone.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2020/05/016_005...
|
| Still seems to be mostly China (48 out of 65), but the
| fact they make it public is highly commendable.
| CubsFan1060 wrote:
| Other comment has a list of suppliers.
|
| https://www.fairphone.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2020/05/016_005...
|
| One of which is "O-Film"
|
| Apple dropped them because they used forced labor:
| https://9to5mac.com/2020/12/03/iphone-camera-supplier-o-
| film...
|
| So, it's probably reasonable to suspect that FairPhone
| does (or did) use suppliers that used forced labor. I
| only checked the one because I had remembered hearing it
| somewhere.
| saladgnu054 wrote:
| Why are you moving the goalposts? What does the history
| matter, the list of countries currently with millions of
| people in concentration camps is quite short.
| mvanbaak wrote:
| As far as I can see they are not moving the goalpost.
| They simply asked to what mobile phone brand they can go
| to make things better.
|
| Yes, the answer is: not one.
| daenz wrote:
| The goal post moving was the phrasing "with _any history_
| of human rights issues " (emphasis mine). The goal was:
| let's not do business with places who are currently
| abusing human rights like this. The goal post was then
| moved to: let's not do business with places with _any
| history_ of human rights issues.
| Pulcinella wrote:
| You need to raise your standards. Concentration camps are
| inherently evil, it does not matter how many people are
| in them. A concentration camp isn't acceptable just
| because it only has 999,999 people in it.
| hinkley wrote:
| How do you feel about the forced labor embodied in every
| single lithium ion battery you're using right now?
| mgh2 wrote:
| Not really, there is a compromise - it is not black and
| white. You can buy out of necessity, just don't over indulge
| or be complicit in their lies - hype compounds the problem by
| pumping up demand.
| Animats wrote:
| "Designed in California. Made by slaves in China."
| appleflaxen wrote:
| how anybody can purchase products that are created under these
| circumstances is beyond my comprehension.
|
| this isn't theoretical. this isn't abstract. it's real life.
| people are being enslaved for these products to be made.
|
| if you are against slavery and purchase an apple product, you are
| a hypocrite.
| powerapple wrote:
| 1) Is there a shortage of labour in China? 2) Why do you setup a
| factory in areas far away from other factory and transport the
| components far away to Shenzhen assemble and export? 3) Were
| these workers paid? And were they paid fairly?
|
| I can understand the situation. The Chinese government is trying
| to improve the economy in Xinjiang and encouraged companies to
| setup factories there. Ruled by a communist government, these
| companies had to comply and provide jobs to those areas, which is
| far from port and industry, whose workers are less trained and
| educated. China is hoping that by improving the economy, people
| can forget about independence maybe?
|
| Evil? Kind of. Very practical plan though.
|
| Edit: Distance from Xinjiang to Shenzhen:
| https://www.google.com/maps/dir/%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi,+Xinjiang,+...
|
| 4k+ kms, 6+hr flight
|
| One of the reason south China is more developed to northern China
| is that the south has most factories, it is close to port.
| TheKarateKid wrote:
| Please re-write your comment in the same vein, except this time
| about Pre World War 2 Germany and Hitler, and let me know if
| you have the balls to hit the submit button.
| powerapple wrote:
| I am not in Germany and you are not Hitler, well, I hope. Why
| do I need to do that? Journalists can publish things without
| evidence to backup their claims, and I cannot describe what I
| think?
|
| No, I don't believe there are forced labour. I put it this
| way. In another BBC report regarding the cotton workers a few
| weeks ago, the source (newspaper scan copies) has shown that
| in the past, companies import workers from neighboring
| provinces, and this year, to help the local economy, they
| make sure jobs will be provided to locals instead. You can
| still see those on BBC websites. It is not translated into
| English of course.
|
| When I say independence, I probably mean extremism
| duxup wrote:
| I fault companies like Apple for doing business with companies
| who do these things.
|
| But I'm not sure if anything changes if local governments aren't
| interested in stopping it (or actually support it) either.
|
| Markets don't care about human rights... and if the local
| government supports this (in this case China, but other places
| too). I don't see how this ever changes.
| onepointsixC wrote:
| It changes by holding companies like Apple accountable. They
| are the largest company in the world for goodness sake. Their
| audits when so little as a picture of a manual gets leaked are
| incredibly thorough, yet when it comes to literal slavery
| they're unable to reign it in? If we were to hold executives
| liable for acting as slavers then it would be miraculous how
| quickly corporate leadership would suddenly be interested in
| the well being of their fellow man.
| duxup wrote:
| I think there's always some manufacturer willing to do this
| thing with any product, even with Apple and just continue on.
|
| We talk about slavery, that ended with state actions. I'm not
| sure China cares, and accordingly the practice will continue.
| throwaway3699 wrote:
| We have to pull manufacturing out of China until something
| changes, then. Each and every one of us is indirectly
| contributing to slavery until then.
| mrweasel wrote:
| What I don't understand is why companies want to be associated
| with these suppliers. Honestly the cost difference can't be
| that big.
|
| Also why isn't it news? It feels like something that should
| have journalists camping outside Tim Cooks office.
|
| While I question his motives, it's kinda weird that Trump of
| all people seems to be the only one who is openly critical of
| China.
| 9HZZRfNlpR wrote:
| It's cheap and makes them money, Apple will plaster few
| rainbow flags with blm somewhere and the issue is the past
| because for professional consumer Silicon Valley tech bros
| fall with every simple marketing campaign as long as they
| agree with.
| matwood wrote:
| Cost is part of it, but the other big piece is logistics. As
| we learned early in the year, Apple _is_ moving manufacturing
| outside of China, but it takes time. Something like the
| iPhone is made in an industrial area where many of the part
| manufacturers are next to each other. This lets various parts
| be easily sourced and delivered. So when Apple wants to move
| to a new country, the end goal has to be to move the entire
| complex, and not just a piece. That takes time.
|
| > While I question his motives, it's kinda weird that Trump
| of all people seems to be the only one who is openly critical
| of China.
|
| You fell into Trumps distortion field. Many are critical of
| China, but the difference is what to do about it. Trumps idea
| was to go it alone with tariffs, rhetoric, and go after
| things like TikTok. IMO, that's not a plan or a real policy.
| throw_m239339 wrote:
| > What I don't understand is why companies want to be
| associated with these suppliers. Honestly the cost difference
| can't be that big.
|
| because ultimately the great majority of their customers do
| not care, as simple as that. They might care about local
| issues, wedge issues, but ethical and moral concerns in
| another country? not so much. Big luxury brands such as Apple
| pour billions in PR and marketing because they live or die by
| the reputation. The day their customers start caring more
| about it, things might change.
|
| I just want to add, that I'm no way trying to diminish
| Apple's achievements when it comes to technology, product
| integration and creating remarkable ecosystems. I cannot
| think of another manufacturer that nailed that much in so
| little time. I think that Apple Silicon is game changer. But
| yes, they are a luxury brand.
| Zarath wrote:
| I think even more than that they simply do not have a
| choice. Yes, it sucks that Apple's suppliers are unethical,
| but what am I supposed to do if I want to Snapchat my
| girlfriend or talk to my friends, or have a phone that is
| compatible with itunes/apple music? If my choice is between
| Apple and Google, how do I know that Google's ethics are
| any better? Am I supposed to spend hours and hours of my
| life investigating whether one is marginally more ethical
| than the other?
|
| We simply have to stop making consumers responsible and
| accountable for every unethical thing a company does. Why
| is the status quo that every company is evil and that's ok?
| You'll see AMEX commercials imploring you to "shop local"
| during the pandemic but where is their relief for small
| business? Why is it my responsibility to save them but
| business as usual for those that want to exploit me?
| duxup wrote:
| If it were in the US you'd certainly see it in the news.
|
| In China and other places just getting close to a factory can
| at times be difficult and crappy working conditions are sadly
| just assumed to be a fact :(
|
| Trump's criticism of China I don't think intersects anywhere
| close to caring about the treatment of Chinese citizens... or
| anyone really.
|
| Just a random anecdote, I'm American and work in the US.
| Trump personally approved the acquisition of a company I
| worked for and appeared with the CEO and talked about how all
| the great jobs that would come of it ... before the
| acquisition was official they laid most everyone off.
| mrweasel wrote:
| But Apple is in the US. What surprises me is that the US
| media isn't pounding on Apple for using suppliers with
| force labor.
|
| Sorry about the acquisition, if it had been a movie it
| would have been almost funny: This is great for job, btw
| you're fired.
| sosborn wrote:
| Part of it is that I think people generally understand
| that Apple doesn't go into a supplier contract
| negotiation and say, "Ok, how many slaves do we get in
| this deal?"
|
| While they ultimately bear responsibility for their
| supply chain, it's easy to see how this stuff can happen
| without direct knowledge. What we need to do is pay
| attention to Apple's response and then act accordingly.
| [deleted]
| darkhorn wrote:
| Can't Aplle produce them in India, Albania, Vietnam, Nepal,
| Kazakstan or another similar country where there is no
| consantration camp?
| samfisher83 wrote:
| They (or their vendor) weren't paying employees in India.
| seniorivn wrote:
| it's not that simple, if it was that simple to build assembly
| plant operating corporations, everyone would do it, but it's
| hard business with very low margins. There are a few big
| companies capable of providing apple with enough
| manpower/production capabilities. And even though it's a low
| skill work, workers still has to be trained, and more
| importantly have to have high work discipline(which could be
| considered a part of a skill set) Most countries don't have
| that at least in large enough numbers for companies like
| apple(and its contractors) to use.
| tjpnz wrote:
| I'm sure it would get a lot simpler if enough people stopped
| buying their products.
| jkestner wrote:
| But when you wield Apple's power, you control those margins.
| They're also different because they've been able to make
| privacy and recycled materials marketing points in their
| industry worth paying for. Why not fair labor?
| [deleted]
| darksaints wrote:
| Came to see how HN's Apple Cult would handwave this away...was
| not disappointed. The cult is so fucking pathetic.
| beaunative wrote:
| Forced labor is quite prevalent as state-sactioned punishment,
| and it is much better than other kinds of punishment that exist.
| I don't have problem with that, that's one way how legal system
| pays for itself rather than siphoning fund from tax-payers'
| money. The difficult part for me was how opaque the process is,
| how the Chinese government just put people in those "camps"
| without due process. It is worrisome and frankly quite
| terrifying.
| corty wrote:
| "Due process" did probably happen, at least the Chinese version
| of it. Even dictatorial regimes usually have to maintain some
| appearance of legitimacy for the things they do. That
| legitimacy might not be apparent or even visible for outsiders,
| because it is targeted to keep a sufficient majority of
| citizens at bay.
|
| And before you say "but 'due process' is well-defined
| anywhere", I've got a star chamber in Guantanamo to sell ;)
| the_local_host wrote:
| Is a "legal system that pays for itself" even desirable? Having
| revenue at all would seem to bring with it all kinds of
| terrible incentives.
|
| Moreover if the full cost of incarceration is borne by the
| taxpayer, then everyone has an incentive to fix the underlying
| causes of imprisonment.
| yorwba wrote:
| The crazy thing to me is Apple's defense that they have
| instructed their suppliers not to hire any Uighurs from Xinjiang,
| i.e. openly engaging in ethnic discrimination of job candidates.
|
| I guess they looked at the cost of improving the working
| conditions in their factories and decided that it was cheaper to
| simply not use any workers whose fate people might care about.
| I'm sure the government was happy to assist them in procuring
| some Han Chinese workers instead...
| [deleted]
| Simulacra wrote:
| I am sad to say this does not shock, or even surprise me. What is
| also failing to shock me is how much the world absolves Apple of
| their responsibility, and near-total government inaction against
| China. Has any major western nation penalized China for it's
| barbarism?
| okprod wrote:
| It's ok though, the new iphone 13 has 3.65 times more drop
| resistance, is 0.053% thinner, with a girardean microprocessor
| for your phone to do qubit image processing on the fly.
| 1cvmask wrote:
| iPhone suppliers workers supposedly.
|
| Maybe we should also talk about the prison labor complex in the
| US as well then and the 13th Amendment:
|
| https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-11/californ...
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/22/us/california-wildfires-p...
|
| https://www.freedomunited.org/news/forced-prison-labor-in-ca...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat...
|
| https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/01/alameda-sa...
|
| https://prospect.org/justice/how-kamala-harris-fought-to-kee...
|
| And how blacks were/are targeted for prison labor following the
| abolishment of slavery:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)
| lmilcin wrote:
| Why not write a single article to say there is injustice in the
| world and that we should fix it?
|
| By bringing those other topics to the discussion any effect is
| diluted. Feel free to bring it on its own merits, separately.
| thethethethe wrote:
| Ehh I actually think this is very relevant to the
| conversation here. There are many others in this thread who
| are criticizing US companies for operating in China when they
| are already based in a country that allows its own form of
| forced labor, sponsors coups abroad, starts wars, etc.
| Knowing this, you'd think people might understand why US
| companies look the other way when they profit off of forced
| Chinese labor.
|
| This may seem like whataboutism but I am not trying to
| justify China's behavior here--it is truly horrendous. I just
| think the general conversation on Hacker News around the
| ethics of US companies operating in China lacks this nuance.
| These issues are deeply interconnected and, by trying to
| force a separation, we all miss out on a balanced and
| critical analysis of the situation
| wwwwwwwww wrote:
| I guess the US voters have decided that they like forced
| prision labor in the US.
| lmilcin wrote:
| There is difference between voters choosing forced prison
| labor and voters given the choice between two parties and
| being intentionally misled and misinformed about what the
| parties are actually doing.
| linuxftw wrote:
| It's the only explanation for people buying diamonds and
| iPhones, so I'd say yes.
| tcbawo wrote:
| With choices of two major political parties, US voters have
| do not have granularity to approve or disapprove long
| term/chronic/fringe issues or issues that disproportionately
| affect a small minority of the population.
| esarbe wrote:
| Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it say that there
| have to be two parties. And even if there was; make an
| amendment.
|
| It the case of the U.S., nobody is to blame but the U.S.
| voters.
| monocasa wrote:
| Its a deeper structural issue that that.
|
| As you say, there's no law mandating it, but here we are.
| esarbe wrote:
| I'm not sure it's a deeper structural issue. The issue is
| actually pretty simple; first-past-the-post voting. This
| _automatically_ leads to a two-party system.
| monocasa wrote:
| Canada has both first past the post voting and a multi
| party system, so no, it's a deeper structural issue than
| that.
| vinay427 wrote:
| This is a problem. That being said, several major states
| have a good amount of direct democracy, including allowing
| for state constitutional changes, and there are often more
| than two viable candidates regardless of the letter after
| their name. I think this is a plausible way out of the two-
| party two-ideology stronghold that incites further
| polarization. Where I vote, between these two factors I
| don't usually think about a party because there may be 4-6
| different candidates with relatively different platforms
| listed under two parties, and 10-20 referenda listed under
| that with no party.
| hardlianotion wrote:
| I think it is better to raise this on its own merits rather
| than as a simple response to another case of human rights
| abuse.
| thethethethe wrote:
| These issues are not separate and treating them as so lacks
| nuance. This conversation is not about whether genocide and
| forced labor is bad (which I hope we can all agree that it
| is), it is about The ethics of Apples business practices. The
| company in question (Apple) is already based in a country
| which performs its own version of state mandated forced labor
| along with a myriad of other human rights abuses. How is this
| not relevant? Knowing this, why should we expect Apple (or
| other US companies) to treat business in China any
| differently? What makes one okay and the other not?
|
| Ignoring this connection diverts attention away from other,
| systemic issues in our global market system which incentivize
| companies to operate in this way.
| christophilus wrote:
| Maybe we should talk about TFA and open other threads for
| unrelated topics.
| hliyan wrote:
| By this token, two wrongdoers can point to each other and
| absolve themselves of the responsibility of their respective
| wrongdoings.
| lumost wrote:
| One injustice does not correct another. The US has a big
| challenge with internal inequity compounded by a massive supply
| chain leveraging others inequity.
|
| It's unlikely we'll see complete resolution to one without the
| other being corrected.
| daenz wrote:
| >Maybe we should also talk about
|
| Whataboutism.
| 5tefan wrote:
| Whataboutism is just Whataboutism in disguise. Wonder why
| this is acceptable behaviour. Injustice is for sure not
| exclusive to China. Practice what you preach. That would be
| pivotal for changing the world to the better.
| tclancy wrote:
| World's shittiest disguise.
| 5tefan wrote:
| Single sentended answers don't give me much to go on,
| though.
| HuwytNashi_008 wrote:
| Would you like to talk about FBI crime statistics as well?
| HuwytNashi_008 wrote:
| I'm very envious of the Chinese for having a government that
| unapologetically puts the interests of their people over
| foreigners.
|
| Part of why this is so shocking to us Westerners is that it's
| such alien behaviour. We have become conditioned to expect
| foreigners are treated with extreme preference.
| sudenmorsian wrote:
| I suppose the Uyghurs in detention camps are not included in
| "their people" then?
| HuwytNashi_008 wrote:
| Is anyone saying that they are? All coverage refers to them
| similarly to this article - they are a Muslim ethnoreligious
| minority.
|
| The parallels to Muslim minority integration in the West is
| probably why it is so interesting to Westerners. The
| disparate treatment by governments is what makes it so
| striking - in China they are second class citizens; in the
| West they are favoured over the indigenous population.
| dvivsivd wrote:
| No, they're not.
|
| Uyghurs, Tibetans and Inner Mongolians are living under the
| yoke of the historically brutal Han empire. Made more brutal
| by Maoism.
|
| Tibet isn't China. Inner Mongolia isn't China -stans aren't
| China.
|
| Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Macao are China. Free China. The China
| we should recognize and treat the CCP regime as a mere de
| facto ruler.
|
| Instead of smuggling weapons into Tibet and Chinese occupied
| stans (just like the CCP did in its near abroad and not so
| near) the West gave China the means to become the world's
| eminent hegemon.
|
| Thanks Bill and Newt! The gifts of 90s political bankruptcy
| keeps giving.
| codefreakxff wrote:
| This comment is so disconnected from reality but I can't tell
| if this is sarcasm or just pure propaganda...
| [deleted]
| tw25570247 wrote:
| Coordination of the desires of suppliers and consumers emerges
| from the market process by individuals deciding whether or not to
| engage in trades.
|
| So, everyone complaining about Apple is free to count their
| displeasure as a too-high cost, and thereby stop buying Apple
| products.
|
| But that would mean forgoing something you otherwise still want
| _right now_. Much better instead demand a well-armed third party
| change the deal. Then, having your conscience eased by shrouding
| yourself in righteousness, you can go ahead and buy that thing.
|
| And by your actions, the ruling class -- both in business and
| politics -- can maintain and expand their power.
|
| ----
|
| A term from economics seems apt: revealed preference. The only
| useful notion of preference is that revealed by one's choices,
| not by what one _says_ are their preferences.
|
| The sad fact is that most people actually don't care, certainly
| not enough to inconvenience themselves.
| paulcarroty wrote:
| Related: https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2020/nov/20/apple-
| lobbying...
|
| Guess a public boycott of iPhone/Apple is easy move to fight this
| mess. I don't wanna think about labors when touching my phone
| every time.
| newscracker wrote:
| Here are a few things Apple doesn't take serious action on (that
| would be expected of a rich company) and/or completely ignores as
| if it's not a problem:
|
| * Human rights preservation in its supply chain
|
| * Improving the repairability/serviceability of its products by
| third party entities so they can have longer useful lives
|
| * True end-to-end encryption of all data on iCloud and its online
| services
|
| All these are inter-related.
| jiofih wrote:
| Note for those skimming the clickbait headlines: this is an
| _accusation_ found in a report. No evidence brought forward yet.
| dang wrote:
| This comment was posted before we merged the threads.
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570247 did indeed have a
| clickbait headline.
| esarbe wrote:
| Since we are talking about a tyrannical dictatorship, I'm
| willing to forgo "in dubio pro reo" in such cases.
|
| Investigators trying to dig up evidence usually end up in jail.
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