[HN Gopher] Why Openstreetmap's product fails to compete with Go...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Why Openstreetmap's product fails to compete with Google Maps
        
       Author : liotier
       Score  : 121 points
       Date   : 2021-01-02 19:04 UTC (3 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (bedogged.substack.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (bedogged.substack.com)
        
       | deanclatworthy wrote:
       | I'm surprised nobody has mentioned tiles here. In order for
       | anyone to build products around OSM data you're probably going to
       | want to render a map. Tile hosting services are costly and I have
       | up last time I tried to find out how you could do it yourself.
        
         | lukeqsee wrote:
         | > Tile hosting services are costly and I have up last time I
         | tried to find out how you could do it yourself.
         | 
         | Blatant self-promotion: my company (https://stadiamaps.com) is
         | trying to fix this problem (I think we have in many ways). I
         | strongly believe you shouldn't have to stand up your own tile
         | hosting infra just to deploy a map without paying $$$ / month.
         | If you want to though, do it! It'll teach you a lot.
        
       | sam_lowry_ wrote:
       | Do not try installing Maps.me now. It's been sold twice and
       | current owners kept only the name, replacing the original code
       | with a Mapbox demo app.
       | 
       | AFAIK, the spiritual successor to Maps.me is Guru Maps.
       | 
       | But if you can live with the complexity of OsmAnd UI, just get it
       | from F-Droid to avoid the 5-maps limit imposed by the Google Play
       | version.
        
         | ce4 wrote:
         | Discussion from 11d ago:
         | 
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25515004
        
       | chippy wrote:
       | OSM does not fail as a product because it is not trying to be a
       | product and it is not trying to compete!
       | 
       | From his twitter it appears that the author is a Facebook
       | employee. Now working (I guess) on Facebook Maps and (probably)
       | on the Mapillary product. The somewhat surprising fact to many is
       | that OpenStreetMap does not need Facebook. If Facebook
       | disappeared, OSM would continue. Think about that again, OSM does
       | not need the participation of any large corporate body to
       | continue. The editors of OpenStreetMap welcome big corporate
       | users of the database but they don't actually seek out or need
       | huge corporate users. Don't get me wrong - OSM editors love that
       | Facebook and Apple use and contribute, there's lots of reasons to
       | praise this. It's like a wikipedia editor who hears that teachers
       | are using their articles in all the nations schools - they are
       | honoured and welcome it, but if the teachers stopped one day the
       | wikipedia editor would still keep on writing those articles!
       | 
       | So, OpenStreetMap does not need Facebook or Apple. OpenStreetMap
       | does not need to compete or be a product. Seems to me that I
       | would view that as a big risk for Apple and Facebook. So, lets
       | imagine how two of the FAANG could protect their investments and
       | reduce risks. Would the changes that OpenStreetMap would need to
       | make to be a product and to compete with Google Maps reduce such
       | risk?
       | 
       | It seems to me that there might possibly be a push from the FAANG
       | users of OSM to make it into a product, to grow, to be a tech
       | organisation with actual employees, a CEO, a structure, an
       | organisation that is familiar to many in tech and their lawyers,
       | a business one can do business with, create contracts with, make
       | NDAs to, employee people in, write deals with, have a say in the
       | direction of and invest actual money in. Currently there is none
       | of that and I think that might be worrying to FAANG.
       | 
       | Even if there's no conscious push from these huge corporations
       | its more probable and it makes more sense to someone with a
       | Silicon Valley mindset that any tech organisation look, behave,
       | and be organised as every other successful tech organisation.
       | It's therefore logical from multiple directions to want OSM to
       | change to become a product company. I would argue that OSM is
       | successful exactly because it is not like a tech organisation.
        
       | rawland wrote:
       | It's not a product. Click bait.
        
       | lukeqsee wrote:
       | OSM needn't compete with Google Maps (as a consumer application)
       | directly; it doesn't, really.
       | 
       | Lots of apps _based_ on OSM data do need to compete, and that is
       | very difficult to do on a global-scale. That 's why most
       | successful OSM-based consumer applications serve a few niches
       | incredibly well. This is not counting the dozens of companies
       | offering OSM-based base maps for use in other, mostly non-map-
       | related uses (such as a store locator or data visualization
       | tool).
       | 
       | OSM has the advantage of time, no need to make money, and a
       | vibrant community around it. Google has to make money directly or
       | indirectly via Google Maps to justify continued investment; OSM
       | simply has to exist, and the longer it exists, the better the
       | data will become. As the ecosystem around OSM improves (and
       | continues building positive feedback loops), I strongly suspect
       | we will see a successful consumer-targeted app using OSM data,
       | and it will be much better than the many (good) apps right now,
       | simply because another 5-10 years of accumulated data
       | improvements outstrip the competition's willingness to continue
       | investing.
       | 
       | Caveat: I cofounded an OSM base map provider. I'm biased. :-)
        
         | otabdeveloper4 wrote:
         | Maps.me is OSM under the hood, and it's very popular and far
         | ahead of the Google offering on features and completeness.
        
           | TulliusCicero wrote:
           | Open source software is often comparable or even superior to
           | the proprietary sort in feature set, the kind of thing you
           | can list in bullet points. But it tends to fall down when it
           | comes to user experience.
           | 
           | I remember attempting to use OSM on my phone before, and I
           | remember being similarly confused about "which app should I
           | use?" and the ones I tried just being fairly clunky. But I'll
           | give maps.me a try, I can't remember if that was one of them.
        
             | mixedCase wrote:
             | OsmAnd~ (F-Droid build) has been serving me well for the
             | past 5 years or so and it's gotten a lot of love over time
             | in the UI/UX side.
        
               | CameronNemo wrote:
               | Unfortunately OsmAnd misses a tremendous quantity of
               | addresses from where I live.
        
               | paulryanrogers wrote:
               | Is the tilde part of the name?
        
               | asddubs wrote:
               | Yes, and it's only on F-Droid. Apparently there's OsmAnd
               | and OsmAnd+, and the one with the tilde is basically the
               | + version with no dependencies on google services. At
               | least according to german wikipedia, which had a
               | convenient little table
        
             | maxerickson wrote:
             | This can be a tumultuous time to try maps.me. It recently
             | got a new owner that decided to use it as a distribution
             | channel for their digital wallet. I'm not sure where it
             | stands right now, but at one point they had thrown away the
             | previous app nearly entirely.
        
               | matthberg wrote:
               | For more context check out [0], which had a major
               | discussion when it was posted. In short, the source code
               | of Maps.me is open source and people are working on
               | building from that, yet the Maps.me you find in the play
               | store isn't the same as the one so many people recommend.
               | 
               | 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25515004
        
               | creato wrote:
               | This kind of garbage is why open source software can't
               | compete with the likes of Google. I started out reading
               | this comment chain thinking "great, I'm going to try
               | maps.me". 10 seconds later, I've learned I can't just try
               | it, I have to find the right fork, of which I see
               | several, each with people mentioning serious caveats. And
               | who knows when the currently best fork will get taken
               | over by the next wallet software huckster?
        
           | ce4 wrote:
           | Maps.me was recently sold and got a lot of negative press for
           | their latest changes (becoming more GMaps like, hiding detail
           | etc). Discussion from 11d ago:
           | 
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25515004
        
           | blinding-streak wrote:
           | Citation needed.
        
           | lukeqsee wrote:
           | Agreed.
           | 
           | It just has a cluttered and sometimes confusing interface (in
           | my experience) which makes it difficult for me to intuitively
           | use it for routing especially. So I typically use Apple Maps
           | for routing--because it just works and is easy.
        
           | patrickk wrote:
           | HERE Maps (called 'Here WeGo' on the App Store) is usually
           | better than Google maps for me in a car, at least in Europe.
           | It's owned by the German car industry and used to be Nokia
           | maps.
        
         | foepys wrote:
         | Some local public transportation "companies" in Germany (which
         | are called "Anstalt des offentlichen Rechts" - literal
         | translation "entity of public law" - and are more or less non-
         | profit businesses funded by the city) are using OSM data for
         | their apps and websites and they often edit the bus/tram/train
         | routes and stops if they change them. This is where OSM shines:
         | public entities keeping their data up to date for the benefit
         | of all.
        
           | izacus wrote:
           | Is that really so much different than those same companies
           | pushing their timetable feeds directly to Google for display
           | in GMaps?
           | 
           | Where does OSM provide value here and how can it beat GMaps
           | in mindshare and keep suriving?
        
             | rakoo wrote:
             | It's not just about market share. In both cases there is an
             | intermediary between the (public) service provider and the
             | users, which is the public. In one case the intermediary is
             | a private entity that answers to no one; in the other case
             | the data belongs to all of us. If you go beyond a
             | mercantile view, it's easy which one is the best for the
             | public in the long term.
        
             | Retric wrote:
             | It's simply more efficient to update OSM, which makes OSM
             | more up to date.
             | 
             | Google maps pulled data from OSM so the government had
             | ~zero incentives to publish to GMaps and every other
             | mapping service directly. It's simply more work without
             | benefit.
             | 
             | PS: If I remember correct Google was on a 2 week delay for
             | OSM data at the time, but that wasn't considered
             | meaningful. Also, what's with all the hate here?
        
             | foepys wrote:
             | I can pull, analyze, and use the data I paid for with my
             | taxes instead of having to beg Google or any other company
             | for access to the data.
        
             | croes wrote:
             | OSM is non-profit, Google is not. Google tracks the users,
             | OSM does not.
        
               | zelphirkalt wrote:
               | Although recently they started enabling another spy to
               | spy on their users, when they decided to rely on fastly.
        
             | paulryanrogers wrote:
             | My guess is the license is the key differentiator.
        
         | liotier wrote:
         | Openstreetmap is not an end-user oriented product - but it is
         | perceived through such products. Understanding what might make
         | it more useful to developers benefits from competitive analysis
         | of the consumer products.
        
         | robertlagrant wrote:
         | It's likely it will never compete. Either its data will never
         | get better than Google's, or it will. If it does, Google might
         | switch the mapping source for Google Maps over to OSM, and make
         | loads of money off it that way. A bit like MS Edge on top of
         | Chromium.
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | In _some_ ways, I 'd argue it is better today. I find using
           | an OSM-based app is far more likely to show trails than
           | Google Maps is. (Probably because Google 1.) Doesn't really
           | care and 2.) Official data for trails is pretty fragmentary.)
        
             | lukeqsee wrote:
             | Shoutout to MapOut on iOS! An excellent outdoor map
             | implementation (including fully offline), and I use it all
             | the time.
        
               | spratzt wrote:
               | Why does Mapout need to use your location even when it
               | isn't open?
        
               | ghaff wrote:
               | I will take a look! I'm still using maps.me.
               | 
               | ADDED: Very nicely done. Just bought it.
        
           | lukeqsee wrote:
           | > Either its data will never get better than Google's, or it
           | will. If it does, Google might switch the mapping source for
           | Google Maps over to OSM, and make loads of money off it that
           | way. A bit like MS Edge on top of Chromium.
           | 
           | Sure, that's reasonable, too. I think OSM (the project &
           | database) wins in that situation, even if its derivations
           | don't compete.
           | 
           | Again, I don't really see OSM directly competing with Google
           | Maps (the app).
        
         | bradbeattie wrote:
         | > OSM simply has to exist, and the longer it exists, the better
         | the data will become.
         | 
         | Probably, but not necessarily. The world changes with time and
         | if OSM contributions languish, it falls out of date with the
         | world and tangibly becomes a worse product. Certainly not
         | inevitable, but a possibility worth noting.
        
           | quietbritishjim wrote:
           | Agreed. In fact, I think the OSM total fraction of errors
           | will exponentially decay towards some non-zero fixed fraction
           | of errors. That's because, on average in the long term, the
           | world probably changes at an approximately fixed rate
           | (relative to total mappable features in the world) and OSM is
           | updated/corrected at a fixed rate (relative to fraction of
           | mappable features that are wrong or missing). Even given the
           | benefit of a lot of time, the OSM can never catch up with a
           | mapping service that updates faster because that other
           | service will have a different equilibrium.
        
         | dheera wrote:
         | Yeah I was here to say this. OSM doesn't even compete with
         | Google Maps, or rather, Google Maps doesn't even compete with
         | OSM if you want to do any kind of large scale analysis on
         | streets without silly licensing restrictions.
        
       | orthoxerox wrote:
       | I find OSM (the website) is a great map. It's blazing fast
       | (Google Maps aren't), and the color scheme is very clear. When I
       | want to explore some random place on Earth (that uses a writing
       | system I can actually read) I always use OSM.
       | 
       | Google Maps (or its local competitors) are great for spatial
       | searches (ATMs in the area, shops in the area) and routing.
       | 
       | Finally, Wikimapia is great for virtual urban exploration. If you
       | saw an abandoned building or warehouse, or found a suspicious
       | bald spot in the middle of the forest when using OSM or Google
       | Maps, the best place to learn about it is Wikimapia.
        
         | ivan_ah wrote:
         | Direct link to Wikimapia https://wikimapia.org/
         | 
         | Highly recommended for looking around when you move to a new
         | neighbourhood or city... I would say tourism, but that is NaT
         | (not a thing) right now.
        
       | luplex wrote:
       | Before Christmas, i downloaded StreetComplete so I have something
       | to do on my daily walks. This post just reminded me to actually
       | upload my changes.
       | 
       | The whole process worked flawlessly, i can recommend it.
       | 
       | The only problem is that there seems to be not a lot of community
       | coordination, so I'm not sure which data types I should focus on.
        
       | sildur wrote:
       | > I worry myself every time I open Google Maps on my phone. I
       | feel like a traitor.
       | 
       | Easy, uninstall it and use only their web version, which is
       | hideous in mobile.
        
       | Pinus wrote:
       | OSM:s biggest problem seems to be that it offers a product -- a
       | map database -- that very few people need, and even fewer people
       | can use, while still relying on millions of ordinary people for
       | data collection (which means understanding the data model, which
       | is getting hideously complex, because it tries to encode
       | _everything_ that can be located).
        
         | lukeqsee wrote:
         | The value is in the derivative works (literally hundreds of
         | companies directly and indirectly rely on OSM for their map
         | data).
        
         | matkoniecz wrote:
         | > which means understanding the data model
         | 
         | This not needed. You can use iD (default in-browser editor)
         | without direct tag use.
         | 
         | On Android you can use StreetComplete that has no exposure to
         | tags or tagging schemes and requires 0 OSM-specific knowledge
         | to use (except creating OSM user account).
         | 
         | > OSM:s biggest problem seems to be that it offers a product --
         | a map database -- that very few people need, and even fewer
         | people can use
         | 
         | Most people use it indirectly, that is not some fundamental
         | problem.
        
         | larzang wrote:
         | Individuals may not need it, but companies? The company I work
         | for has multiple products which internally rely on geolocating
         | arbitrary addresses. OSM keeps our costs way down, we only have
         | to pay Google when OSM fails a match and we fall back to the
         | Google Maps API. I doubt we're uncommon in this. OSM had less
         | of a programmatic use when Google's free monthly tiers were
         | large and subsequent costs low, but that hasn't been the case
         | for a good while now.
        
       | Shank wrote:
       | My biggest critique with OSM and OSM-based maps is that
       | contributing an OSM change has an unknown time delay between "OSM
       | change" and "actual map software updates to have it." I was
       | infuriated to find multiple geography issues in Apple Maps in my
       | area. I went to OSM, and the underlying source has already been
       | corrected. The satellite imagery is correct, but the map layers
       | for navigation and travel are wrong. How long will it take for
       | OSM changes to make it into Apple Maps? No clue.
       | 
       | You can submit corrections for some info (like place details) to
       | Apple and Google and they'll change within 24-48 hours. If you
       | update OSM, however, it'll take you an unknown amount of time.
       | Some iOS apps proudly champion being able to update OSM data
       | monthly -- but that's still huge compared to basically over a
       | weekend.
        
         | maxerickson wrote:
         | The changes make it into the database in more or less real time
         | and there are condensed feeds providing the changes for the
         | last minute, hour, or day.
         | 
         | So the delays are on the data consumer side. A lot of that ends
         | up being QA, because big companies don't want to publish
         | vandalism. Of course, when they accidentally do publish
         | vandalism, their slower update pace becomes a weakness.
        
           | Drdrdrq wrote:
           | Does that happen? One would assume that the slower update
           | pace is just a matter of policy, so with vandalism they would
           | be able to apply fixes much faster.
        
             | maxerickson wrote:
             | There was a notable example a few years ago.
             | 
             | https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2018/08/30/osm-condemns-
             | vanda...
             | 
             | OSM had the vandalism removed in a couple hours. A few
             | weeks later, the QA mistakenly let the vandalism through
             | and it wasn't corrected until it got quite a lot of
             | attention.
        
       | emacsen wrote:
       | I'm the author of both "Why the World Needs OpenStreetMap" and
       | "Why OpenStreetMap is in serious trouble".
       | 
       | I think the issue of a mobile application is an interesting one,
       | and on its own is not an issue, but combined with other issues,
       | it is.
       | 
       | My favorite OSM based map app was Mapzen Mobile.
       | 
       | The reason I think Mapzen Mobile worked better than other apps
       | was that it generally understood the ways in which users use OSM
       | data, which largely ties into the critiques I and others have
       | around OSM's geolocation services. They're very Euro-centric-
       | even in comparison to how a North American uses the same
       | services.
       | 
       | But as long as map apps aren't good, then users will be forced to
       | use proprietary maps, which feeds back into itself.
       | 
       | We have some amazing opportunities- more now than ever, but the
       | OSMF needs to put conscious effort into direction, making (ie
       | funding and overseeing development) over mechanisms to allow for
       | regular people to have OSM as easily _and as well_ as Google
       | Maps.
       | 
       | This is no small feat, but I think that such a design could be
       | designed- especially if it combined not only the existing mapping
       | technologies for data (ie vector maps across the wire) but also
       | localization of geolocation in a manner that mimiced the way
       | geolocation data itself is crowdsourced- making it easy to build
       | more relevant results from search and display the information
       | people want quickly and easily.
       | 
       | But like the author, I am disheartened and have my doubts that
       | the OSMF would take on such an ambitious task. I wish very much
       | that they would!
        
         | necovek wrote:
         | It's actually quite an interesting dynamic: USA OSM data was
         | largely bootstrapped from public domain government data.
         | European data was, in many instances, created from scratch.
         | 
         | Serbian OSM is generally more up to date and more correct than
         | Google Maps.
         | 
         | I believe that one of the approaches has led to people who are
         | more invested in the result and you can guess which one is
         | that.
         | 
         | But to be honest, I find OsmNav better than Google Maps for in
         | car navigation, though they both suck. Perhaps Google Maps is
         | not bad when you can voice control it, but you can't in
         | Serbian.
        
         | juliansimioni wrote:
         | (Former Mapzen employee here).
         | 
         | I _think_ you're talking about Eraser
         | Map(https://github.com/mapzen/eraser-map) right?
         | 
         | It was awesome! It's the closest I know of to "Google Maps, but
         | open source and based on open data". It was an app built for
         | _end users_, not OSM editors. And it worked pretty darn well.
         | When it didn't, any problems could (at least theoretically) be
         | addressed with improvements to OSM data or the Mapzen open-
         | source projects.
         | 
         | There was a team of at least two people working on it full
         | time, plus lots of work on the design, product, and integration
         | with geocoding, routing, transit etc. The multi-modal
         | (switching from walking to transit to car, etc) transit
         | directions were particularly awesome.
         | 
         | I used it as my daily driver for much of my navigation around
         | NYC, and as time went on only had to fall back to Google Maps
         | maybe 25% of the time, usually for missing POI data.
         | 
         | Unfortunately I think it's one of the few Mapzen projects that
         | hasn't seen new life after the company shut down, and like you
         | said it would take quite a bit of work (read: money) to keep it
         | going. It might be possible with some work to find grant money
         | through a couple organizations. The OSMF has done some awesome
         | work lately with the micro-grants, but this would definitely be
         | a level we haven't seen (yet).
        
         | twic wrote:
         | > The reason I think Mapzen Mobile worked better than other
         | apps was that it generally understood the ways in which users
         | use OSM data, which largely ties into the critiques I and
         | others have around OSM's geolocation services. They're very
         | Euro-centric- even in comparison to how a North American uses
         | the same services.
         | 
         | Could you expand on this? When you say "ways in which users use
         | OSM data", do you mean "ways in which American users use OSM
         | data"? What is wrong with OSM's geolocation services? What even
         | are OSM's geolocation services - i thought OSM was just a map!
         | What doesn it mean for them to be Euro-centric?
        
           | emacsen wrote:
           | > What is wrong with OSM's geolocation services?
           | 
           | They come up with irrelevant results or no results at all. I
           | talked about this in more detail in "Why OSM is in serious
           | trouble".
           | 
           | > What even are OSM's geolocation services - i thought OSM
           | was just a map!
           | 
           | OSM isn't a map, it's a geographic database.
           | 
           | By OSM's geolocation services, I mean Nominatim. Pelias gave
           | me better results but it's gone AFAIK.
           | 
           | > What doesn it mean for them to be Euro-centric?
           | 
           | People search for things differently in Europe than they do
           | in the US.
           | 
           | As a small example, I will regularly search for
           | intersections, but I've been told Europeans don't often do
           | that.
        
             | juliansimioni wrote:
             | Hi! Pelias core maintainer and former Mapen employee here.
             | It is not gone :)
             | 
             | After Mapzen shut down a co-worker and I founded Geocode
             | Earth(https://geocode.earth/) to continue working on the
             | Pelias project, funded by consulting and, primarily, a SaaS
             | much like Mapzen Search.
             | 
             | Over the past 3 years the project has improved quite a bit,
             | and Geocode Earth has had solid growth (50% SaaS revenue in
             | 2020). We've been fully bootstrapped this whole time and
             | plan on continuing this well...indefinitely!
             | 
             | In fact, intersection support is already present in Pelias
             | and will be rolling out to Geocode Earth soon :)
        
         | subins2000 wrote:
         | I use OsmAnd and there are a lot of features. What troubles
         | with Google Maps in India is that every road is considered
         | basically the same and the routes it calculate often tends to
         | be on very bad roads whereas OsmAnd tries to pick the road
         | based on quality/main-roads first then side roads. This is very
         | useful in India where many roads have potholes. Major roads
         | (national, state, district highways) are better maintained than
         | the rest. This distinction between roads are clearly mapped in
         | OSM, at least in Kerala.
         | 
         | GMaps also tries to calculate the very shortest path possible,
         | but this often is a bad idea in India cause the roads won't be
         | that great to go through.
         | 
         | Some of the things I like about OsmAnd: navigation-with-voice,
         | speedbump warnings, sightseeing notifications, trip
         | recording+stats, parking area finder, different profiles
         | (walking, driving, browsing etc.) :- all this available offline
         | :)
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | maire wrote:
       | I use only 1 metric to compare maps - are they accurate giving
       | directions to my address?
       | 
       | Google Maps used to be great - far better than Map Quest. Waze
       | was pretty bad. Apple was initially bad. Open Street Maps was
       | pretty good except they thought my driveway was a road.
       | 
       | In the past year Google got pretty bad. Apple became awesome.
       | About a year ago Open Street Maps improved.
       | 
       | Then this morning I checked Open Street Maps and it now has the
       | exact same bug that has irritated me with Google!
       | 
       | I suspect there is some bad code sharing between OSM and Google.
       | 
       | Details - if your physical address is in a different county than
       | your postal office it confuses the heck out of Google. OSM used
       | to handle this just fine, but not now.
       | 
       | Accuracy counts more than anything else!
        
         | etimberg wrote:
         | Is what you consider a driveway actually a driveway legally
         | speaking? In rural areas even if you own all the property
         | around the roadway, the road itself might be a public easement.
        
           | maire wrote:
           | The driveway was put in by my father - so no it is not a
           | roadway.
           | 
           | I think there was wishful thinking since many of the OSM
           | maintainers are mountain bikers and the Santa Cruz mountains
           | has some desirable mountain biking paths. The back part of
           | our property is on The Soquel Demonstration Forest which has
           | an awesome mountain biking path.
           | 
           | They were pretty good about fixing the issue when I pointed
           | it out.
        
         | lukeqsee wrote:
         | What app are you using? OSM itself (openstreetmap.org) doesn't
         | do routing, so I'm guessing the data itself is bad? It could be
         | a bad governmental open data merge.
        
           | maire wrote:
           | > What App are you using.
           | 
           | I used the OSM web page.
           | 
           | Just type in the address with zip code, and it takes you to a
           | completely different different zip code. This is a relatively
           | new bug.
           | 
           | I find it interesting that I am down voted by 4 points. The
           | OSM fans must not understand the value of user testing. Maybe
           | it is the google fans who don't understand user testing.
        
       | j45 wrote:
       | Are there former google maps employees who could be hired to work
       | on OSM? Sounds like it could be something folks would be willing
       | to chip in for.
        
         | emacsen wrote:
         | The issue isn't lack of engineering but that the engineering in
         | OSM is entirely on the "value add" providers, that are the
         | companies using OSM.
         | 
         | The OSM Foundation and general leadership (both official and
         | unofficial) are people who sell these services (map rendering
         | and geolocation) and appear blind to the need for a dedicated
         | effort to make it better. They instead rely on work done a
         | decade ago, proprietary work done by companies or else work
         | done by volunteers without coordination.
         | 
         | Because of this, the situation persists and gets worse over
         | time.
        
           | j45 wrote:
           | I'm new to this problem and appreciate the scope of the
           | explanation.
        
         | lukeqsee wrote:
         | In my estimation, Google's data advantage mostly comes from
         | deploying millions of monetary units to sending physical cars
         | out to drive every road they could (and doing it over and over
         | again).
         | 
         | How does OSM compete with that in a centralized way? I don't
         | think it can. OSM competes by decentralization and millions of
         | individual contributions.
         | 
         | I don't think hiring a few people will move the needle much.
         | I'd be grateful to be wrong, though!
        
           | j45 wrote:
           | That's a fair point. I was imagining things from the user
           | experience layer and not the data. Both are important, I do
           | think friendlier the UX can be for basic things, the more I
           | could get folks I know to try using it instead.
           | 
           | That is one way Waze started to get a leg up on Google Maps,
           | it's experience was creating a more meaningful experience for
           | the average driver...and as a result, data.
        
       | zelphirkalt wrote:
       | Well, so far I have always preferred OSM over Google Maps, simply
       | because of tracking and spying and because for me personally the
       | user interface delivered a better experience. Also it only needed
       | third party stuff when searching for routes from A to B. However,
       | lately the situation with OSM has drastically worsened, when they
       | started relying on fastly. I'll unfortunately have to find a new
       | map website now.
       | 
       | Welcoming any suggestions for map websites with basic
       | functionality like OSM, but without relying on spying eyes.
        
       | Nextgrid wrote:
       | OSM has the same problem as many other open-source projects: not
       | enough focus on branding and user experience.
       | 
       | Right now, if I want to use OSM on my iPhone and I search
       | "OpenStreetMap" in the App Store I get various applications under
       | various, unknown names. The closest to an "official" name would
       | be OSMaps, but it turns out even that one isn't official and has
       | no navigation capabilities.
       | 
       | On Android, I don't have a phone to test with but seems like the
       | most popular option appears to be OsmAnd. Again, not only is the
       | name cryptic but doesn't imply anything unless you're already
       | familiar with OSM. "Google Maps", "Apple Maps", etc in contrast
       | automatically imply what the app is for even if you've never
       | heard of the brand itself.
       | 
       | If OSM wants to succeed in the consumer space, they need to
       | release an official, "reference implementation" of a mobile
       | client with an UI comparable to the competition that a layman can
       | understand and use even if they have no idea what OSM is nor are
       | interested in contributing.
        
         | estaseuropano wrote:
         | But that would mean OSM Starts competing with its corporate
         | users. Not sure this will be a healthy strategy.
         | 
         | What I would love to see would be an app allowing me to quickly
         | contribute to OSM, e.g. fix things, add street names or POIs,
         | etc.
        
           | bchanudet wrote:
           | On Android you can use StreetComplete. With it, you'll be
           | mostly able to add missing details around you, and the types
           | of quests available are very broad. Arguably, you can't fix
           | things with it, I heard there was an other app on F-Droid to
           | do this but I haven't tried it yet.
        
             | matkoniecz wrote:
             | "Arguably, you can't fix things with it" - you can fix
             | certain things, thanks to resurvey quest that were added.
             | 
             | For example resurvey of old opening hours data, recent
             | version (v28.0) added also ability to directly handle shop
             | that is gone and replaced by another (it may not be
             | released for you, especially if you use F-Droid). See https
             | ://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/releases/ta...
             | for details.
             | 
             | For full scale editing on Android see Vespucci.
        
       | orange_tee wrote:
       | OSM always worked better for me. I suspect this is going to be
       | very location dependent. I guess in the US Google tries really
       | hard to get good data or maybe it is easier to get good data. I
       | lived in various countries in Europe, always in smaller cities
       | and rural areas. OSM data is always more reliable for whatever
       | reason. I noticed and was rather surprised that even my small
       | hometown of 5000 people had multiple OSM contributors.
        
       | mynegation wrote:
       | That might be a good time to share my anecdote. Back in 2017 I
       | was driving in Mexico using maps.me in offline mode (saving on
       | ex-orbitant data roaming fees). At one point, the highway did a
       | wide turn, and some village was tucked away in this turn.
       | 
       | Maps.me decided it would be a good idea to cut through the
       | village as its main street connected two points on the bending
       | highway like a chord. Yes, in terms of distance it was shorter,
       | if you do not account for the allowed speed limit and conditions.
       | I spent 10 minutes slowly crawling through the village trying not
       | to kill any chickens. I was also low on gas and had barely enough
       | to get to the next gas station, so I was not amused.
       | 
       | Since then I always triple-check maps.me routes, looking at the
       | whole route and checking it against google maps if I have a
       | chance.
       | 
       | To be fair, it has probably more to do with maps.me routing
       | algorithm than OSM data, but it is hard to know.
        
         | kortilla wrote:
         | Accounting for speed limits is such a basic thing in a route
         | plan. I wonder if there was incorrect information in the source
         | about the limits.
        
       | gwilikers wrote:
       | Why apples as a product fails to compete with oranges - part 1/3
        
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