[HN Gopher] Audrey Tang brings civic tech to Taiwan's coronaviru...
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Audrey Tang brings civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic
response [audio]
Author : timjones
Score : 69 points
Date : 2021-01-04 19:16 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.npr.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.npr.org)
| [deleted]
| s5300 wrote:
| Keep in mind that a key feature of government is having a
| monopoly on violence within its jurisdiction...
| djsumdog wrote:
| That is absolutely true, but what are you implying in this
| context? Was Taiwan harsher with draconian lockdown policies
| early on?
| GregarianChild wrote:
| Taiwan never had a lockdown! See the discussion here:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25539398
|
| Taiwanese policies were not just much more successful in
| containing the virus, but also much less draconian.
| Ericson2314 wrote:
| In Taiwan the memory of military rule isn't all stale, and the
| current party in power is the one that is explicitly _not_ the
| KMT with a romanticized view of the past.
|
| So I'd say the Taiwan situation is excellent Services per
| Authoritarian buck.
|
| And to turn it around, while armed Civilians do erode the
| Government monopoly on violence, I will refuse to blame that
| for our current dysfunction. We suck, without or without the
| 2nd amendment.
| osgovernment wrote:
| The US government is full of corruption and closed-source
| companies basically destroying almost all open source
| collaborative efforts based on greed. Unless a leader steps in
| that truly understands this and works to get rid of it, then I
| don't think the US will ever be able to compete.
| Guthur wrote:
| What are you actually talking about, your just touting
| rhetorical nonsense with no actual content or thought beyond
| you on hypocritical echo.
|
| "Woe is me the government is corrupt, won't the government save
| me from their corruption".
|
| Take power away from the government and you'll find it a lot
| easier.
| brixon wrote:
| One of the big issues for these kinds of things is that the
| United States has 51+ governments. The Federal Government has
| limited power and for a lot of stuff the 50 states can do their
| own thing. The Civil War did move more power to the Federal
| Gov, but the States are still very independent.
| slumdev wrote:
| A handful of states attempted to fork the US government 160 years
| ago. Didn't go well.
| blakesterz wrote:
| It's hard to tell why you might want to listen to this from just
| the title:
|
| "But Taiwan has also been taking a relatively experimental
| approach to the pandemic with technology. Like working with civic
| hackers to code its way out of the pandemic. Today on the show,
| we dive into Taiwan's pandemic policies and ask: Would the U.S.
| ever take a similar approach?"
| tt433 wrote:
| I'll address why one would listen: to learn about some ways not
| to be the epicenter of a pandemic ever again.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| > not to be the epicenter of a pandemic
|
| Are we talking about the US? In what metric is the USA the
| epicenter? In deaths per capita? In infections per capita?
| I'm pretty sure US leads in testing per capita. I'm not being
| snarky, I really don't know if you are referring to USA, and
| in what way.
| zaphod4prez wrote:
| We have a very high number of cases per capita, and while
| we do perform a lot of tests, it's not like we lead in
| tests per capita. [Here's a good graph to play around
| with](https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-
| explorer?time=ea...). We are middling to low in terms of
| tests per confirmed case (aka its _not_ just that we 're
| performing more tests than others), [here's that
| graph](https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-
| explorer?time=20...). And our case fatality rate is pretty
| good but not amazing (among first-world countries at least)
| [graph](https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-
| explorer?time=20...) ([Here's US vs World + regions
| CFR](https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-
| explorer?time=20...)).
|
| Note, you have to play around w selecting different
| countries and dates on that website, I wish they had some
| kind "select by GDP quartile" or something.
| lazide wrote:
| I'm guessing you're referring to the
| probability/possibility of large, untracked or suppressed
| outbreaks in other countries - India, Iran, Russia, China,
| Brazil, etc.
|
| Depending on the source of your data, extrapolations on
| personal experience or rumor or innuendo, or distrust of
| different government systems, there may very well be
| massive outbreaks - on the level or exceeding per capita
| infections in the US. Frankly, we don't have solid data, so
| it's hard to say.
|
| The US has, best case, massive testing shortfalls and
| untested cases, periodic government attempts to downplay
| the issue, and chaotic spikes and overwhelmed systems. It
| is almost certainly still better in all of these areas than
| those countries listed above. We can't do anything about
| that though.
|
| It's fog of war. But you're probably getting downvoted
| because the tone of your message seems to be one of 'pfft
| the US isn't that bad' - which by most metrics we seem to
| have, isn't the case, at least in high profile areas like
| Southern California. Keeping it from not being overly bad,
| near as we can tell, also requires taking serious and often
| painful approaches to the problem to mitigate it, which
| doesn't happen if it isn't taken seriously. Not taking
| those measure seems to make the problem even worse - in the
| sense of concrete, real people being dead that otherwise
| wouldn't be.
|
| To more directly answer your question - in total number of
| REPORTED new cases and deaths, US is solidly number 1. As a
| percent of population, the only sizable country with more
| cases than the US right now is the Czech Republic - which
| is serious, but isn't going to get headline news like the
| US will. By tests per capita, the US is doing reasonably
| well - the only largish country doing better so far is the
| UK. However, considering the scope of it's spread in the
| US, that is probably misleading. Most countries haven't
| NEEDED to test so much.
|
| https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
|
| Feel free to click on the various sorting widgets to see it
| from different views.
| yomly wrote:
| I think you are mistaken to lump China in those
| countries.
|
| People are constantly underestimating the Chinese
| relationship with contagion. I guarantee that China would
| not be able to hide any major covid outbreaks. Word would
| escape to outside relatives.
|
| Chinese people are extremely averse to contagion, coupled
| with a deep surveillance infrastructure and strong
| authoritarian government they are in a solid position to
| hold covid at bay.
| machello13 wrote:
| Anyone at all responsible for the US being one of the worst
| countries hit is not browsing HN right now looking to learn
| new perspectives.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Oh, they show up occasionally, looking to troll, not for
| new perspectives, but they get downvoted and banned quickly
| by the community and moderators and eventually go away,
| because the moderation system works.
| zbrozek wrote:
| Things like the "where do I get masks" map don't seem
| antithetical to personal privacy the way a contact tracing tool
| is. That's pretty low-hanging fruit that we didn't appear to
| make any attempt to pick.
| ISL wrote:
| Volunteer groups like findthemasks did, but in a get-PPE-to-
| hospitals context.
|
| I am unaware of a US implementation of a direct copy of the
| Taiwanese webapp. In the US through at least May, health
| authorities were scrambling to get enough PPE to keep the
| healthcare system functional.
| awnird wrote:
| I don't think a Masks Map would work in a country where the
| population believes COVID is fake, and masks are an Islamic
| plot.
|
| Don't you have to address those fundamental issues first?
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Trump and QAnon followers in the US don't just believe
| COVID is fake, they commonly throw tantrums and actively
| attack and even murder people wearing masks and asking them
| to wear masks.
|
| QAnon Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene Refuses to Wear
| Mask at Congressional Swearing-In
|
| https://news.yahoo.com/qanon-congresswoman-marjorie-
| taylor-g...
|
| Family Charged In Security Guard's Death After Mask Dispute
|
| https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-
| updates/2020/0...
|
| US family 'murdered shop guard for enforcing mask policy'
|
| https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52540266
|
| NYPD: Woman Attacked By Couple After Asking Them To Wear
| Face Masks In Elevator
|
| https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/11/18/brooklyn-face-
| mask-a...
|
| ATTACKED FOR WEARING MY MASK
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kII1ST3Z2Xk&ab_channel=JonF
| o...
|
| Men attack Target employee after refusing to wear face mask
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI5Xbw4ec-0&ab_channel=WPLG
| L...
|
| Woman attacked in N.J. Staples after asking customer to
| wear mask
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87kJWYt_foY&ab_channel=NJ.c
| o...
|
| There are many other examples.
| adrianmonk wrote:
| Not to mention the scrapped plan to just simply mail masks to
| every US household:
|
| https://www.postal-reporter.com/blog/white-house-axed-
| usps-p...
| Shivetya wrote:
| read the transcript, link at the bottom.
|
| The issue isn't that we don't have leadership that would work
| with "groups" who do similar to what was done in Taiwan the
| issue is government would want control over the groups to
| include who was in them. pretty much they would drive the
| innovation right out the door.
|
| then they would turn around and clamp down on anyone who dared
| do similar work that was not part of the government sanctioned
| cooperative effort.
|
| https://www.npr.org/transcripts/949764249
| f430 wrote:
| > Would the U.S. ever take a similar approach?
|
| Would the US ever admit their exceptionalism is perhaps flawed?
|
| Would the Europeans ever admit their exceptionalism led to
| ignoring Taiwan's alarm bells?
|
| I highly doubt it. They are not stupid, they know what's going
| on in China and they are not telling everybody else because
| they are worried of losing credibility as leaders.
|
| _Almost all of our current response assumes the Chinese
| Communist Party is capable of being transparent and honest._
|
| This is what worries me but perhaps the Chinese money has too
| much sway on YC and Silicon Valley in general to realize you
| are all being led into a death trap.
|
| Pay attention to January 6th very carefully. A few hedge fund
| managers I speak to tells me they are hedged for a potentially
| a massive shock.
|
| Similarly, the market seems to show that Biden's increase in
| corporate/wealth tax will become a reality at a time when the
| market desperately needs lower taxes and less punishment for
| the wealthy.
|
| Some extreme end of the hedge fund managers think that the USD
| is going to collapse but I believe that this is just another
| ploy by people who bought Gold years ago are trying to dump
| their positions on people who buy this shit up.
|
| the USD will never be allowed to fail because the rest of the
| world's currency is backed by it.
| Ericson2314 wrote:
| Overall yes, but exactly what you mean by "China" here is
| _highly_ ambiguous.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| Those are some really incredible Covid numbers for Taiwan, just,
| _incredible_.
|
| Having spent time there and seem some poorer areas and very dense
| areas, 7 deaths is unbelievably great.
| m_mueller wrote:
| Think about what that implies regarding the difference a
| competent government makes. Half a million dead, maybe even
| more, in the US alone. Granted, Taiwan was in some way lucky to
| have had SARS to get the acceptance needed to install their
| emergency law, but still, others had too and did scratch.
| Switzerland even gave up its stockpile of pandemic supply two
| years ago.
| djsumdog wrote:
| They could also have motivations to use more specific testing
| or lower PCR amplification cycles. The PCR amplifications of
| over 40+ in the US and EU lead to many false positives. There
| could also be genetic factors found in only South East Asians.
| Also, they're an island, just like NZ.
|
| There are a lot of variables, but the biggest factor: they're
| literally an island.
| ff7c11 wrote:
| The UK is also "literally an island", though 4 times as big
| as Taiwan. Taiwan banned flights from China early on, and now
| only allows entry to residents and those on business. The UK
| has still not stopped international travel. Quarantine on
| arrival in the UK is weak and unenforced, compared to Taiwan
| where the only way out of the airport is in a quarantine taxi
| to an approved place and you get tracked by your phone for 2
| weeks. By consistently refusing to take timely action, and
| refusing to take things seriously, the UK forefeited its
| island advantage.
| swiley wrote:
| Last I checked 6 or 7 was also the number of reported Covid
| deaths in Thailand.
| Benneb wrote:
| As of right now according to the JHU coronavirus map Thailand
| has 8439 recorded cases and 65 deaths.
| rhacker wrote:
| I don't fully get the title from the content, but perhaps NPR is
| saying that we should have a different control structure for
| health related maters... Like for example in Star Trek the only
| people that can override the captain is the doctor. For medical
| emergencies they can basically force some course of action. It
| seems in most countries the top brass is making decisions even
| though they are not technically qualified to do so.
| 0xffff2 wrote:
| >Like for example in Star Trek the only people that can
| override the captain is the doctor. For medical emergencies
| they can basically force some course of action.
|
| I guess most people who are familiar with this at all are
| familiar with it from Star Trek, but it's worth mentioning that
| this is just a natural extension of Starfleet's pseudo-military
| basis.
|
| When I was in the Army, my word carried nearly as much weight
| on medical matters as my immediate commanding officer's, even
| though I was a lowly line medic, not a near equal as the
| doctors in Star Trek usually are to their respective captains.
| I had no official authority of my own, but the fact that I
| could go to my medical superiors for backup meant that I was
| never questioned when I said something was medically necessary.
|
| My point is, we don't need to go to a SciFi TV show to see this
| dynamic. It exists in our own current society.
| AnHonestComment wrote:
| Doctors can't override the captain, except on medical choices
| and only narrowly.
|
| They can relieve the captain -- but they can do that in the US,
| too.
| throwaway201103 wrote:
| If the government is going to tell me I can't leave my house, I
| want that decision being made by an elected official with some
| accountability to the public, not by a staff doctor of some
| sort.
| gitgreen wrote:
| As a programmer in state government this approach is not feasible
| for many reasons the chief of which is that at almost every level
| of government we lack technocrats. In the very unlikely event
| that one is appointed or hired that has Audrey Tang's(from the
| podcast, digital minister for Taiwan) background I predict that
| the amount of pushback received from other levels of government
| and unions would smother any software with similar utility to
| that of the mask finder. I can't wait to jump to private
| industry.
| Ericson2314 wrote:
| Yes the current Taiwanese government is truly one of the
| world's finest, and the US governance one of the worst.
|
| One of the reason I enjoy reading
| https://pedestrianobservations.com/ and other in depth
| discussions of public transit is that it's really quite the
| barometer for overall civic function. The rate of new public
| transit is also a fine derivative, and as such even more "low
| latency".
| eric_khun wrote:
| Something I really enjoy at Taiwan is the bike sharing system
| they've put all around the country. Liking it at a point
| where I've wrote an essaye about it[1]. It's cheap,
| everywhere, and built on a really high standard
|
| [1] https://erickhun.com/posts/taiwan-youbike-bike-sharing/
| youeseh wrote:
| If you update your Hacker News profile with an updated bio and
| contact info, then perhaps we'd be able to help ;).
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