[HN Gopher] Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet
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Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet
Author : seryoiupfurds
Score : 48 points
Date : 2021-01-05 19:49 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.cbc.ca)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.cbc.ca)
| recursion wrote:
| The sheer size of Amazon is mind boggling. Is there anywhere
| they've opened their logistics network to other operators yet?
| Like AWS but for their logistics.
| tidepod12 wrote:
| Isn't "logistics as a service" pretty much what Fulfillment By
| Amazon is?
|
| I could be totally wrong, but based on the past stories I've
| read about Amazon's negotiations with UPS and their growth of
| their own delivery network, I'd be surprised if they have much
| spare logistics capacity to open up to anyone outside the
| immediate Amazon ecosystem.
| discodave wrote:
| > Isn't "logistics as a service" pretty much what Fulfillment
| By Amazon is?
|
| There is a lot of crossover between FBA, and a UPS or FedEx,
| but it's not 100%. FBA is basically B2C, as opposed to B2B or
| C2C.
|
| Back during the "peak lockdown" of April/May 2020, a little
| birdie told me about some of the steps that Amazon was taking
| to give the warehouses and delivery network a break from the
| increased demand. In other words, Amazon saw lots of
| unexpected growth due to the pandemic. It wouldn't surprise
| me if plans to launch "Amazon Logistics" or whatever as a
| separate line of business got pushed back due to the
| pandemic.
|
| Edit: I know for a fact that the leadership of the Logistics
| part of Amazon has expressed a desire to become the "4th
| flywheel" of Amazon, which is Amazon-speak for being a self
| sustaining, revenue generating line of business. But as you
| allude to, they have to soak up all the demand generated from
| the Amazon consumer business first.
| ballarak wrote:
| Look up "Multi-channel Fulfillment", Amazon ships off-Amazon
| orders for 3rd party sellers.
| LennyWhiteJr wrote:
| May want to check out https://freight.amazon.com
| notatoad wrote:
| per wikipedia, it looks like amazon's current fleet is 66
| aircraft, and prior to this news had already ordered 15
| additional 767-300ER.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Air
| tidepod12 wrote:
| Of note, all of those 66 planes are leased from and operated by
| other cargo airlines, like Atlas Air. Amazon doesn't own the
| planes or employ the pilots, they just lease the ability to
| paint the Amazon logo on the side and have the planes fly
| routes they choose.
|
| It's unclear if the planes mentioned in the OP are talking
| about Amazon actually outright purchasing planes (which would
| be a first) or if they are just leasing more.
|
| edit: Actually the article does say this at the bottom:
|
| >Amazon launched its own air cargo fleet in 2016 and, prior to
| Tuesday's news, the company leased 80 planes, but the move is
| the first time the company has bought their own
| lordnacho wrote:
| What's the point of painting the planes in your own colors?
| cosmodisk wrote:
| The same as putting your name on a skyscraper. Whenever you
| are over a city or landing with your private jet, you can
| always tell the guy sitting in front of you: oh,look, there
| they are! Remember I told you I bought 12 new Boeings?
| notatoad wrote:
| It impresses the other billionaires.
| petra wrote:
| Playing the stock market game.
| jandrese wrote:
| I wonder if this means they'll be hiring their own pilots? Or
| are they buying the aircraft and then leasing them out to an
| air freight company to handle the operations? Basically the
| same situation but better for Amazon's taxes.
| jaywalk wrote:
| They'll almost certainly have another company handling
| operations and maintenance.
| granzymes wrote:
| Bloomberg confirmed that the purchased planes will be
| operated by contractors.
|
| https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-05/amazon-
| ma...
| [deleted]
| tschwimmer wrote:
| As the other poster noted, these are the first outright
| purchases of planes, vs previous planes were leased from
| aircraft leasing companies. My understanding is that when you
| lease, the leasing company handles all the maintenance and
| crewing and you only specify the routings. Obviously when you
| buy planes, you're responsible for everything yourself. You can
| however contract out maintenance and crewing to other
| contractors.
| jonwadsworth wrote:
| Will Amazon start to transport other things; in addition to goods
| they are selling? Human transport? Compete directly with
| UPS/FedEx?
| fumar wrote:
| Do customers gain from Amazon's increased footprint? They are
| like a super organism growing and controlling distribution paths.
| Have there been other companies like Amazon in capitalist
| history? Google?
| jfim wrote:
| Probably this one, over four hundred years ago:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company
| kd913 wrote:
| I remember watching a video from Wendover Production talking
| about the decline of 747 and A380s mainly due to a lack of
| guaranteed passengers to fill the plane routes in both
| directions.
|
| Exceptions being some airlines which are able to operate hub and
| spoke models and where fuel is cheap like the middle east
| airlines.
|
| Wouldn't these types of planes be more suitable for a role in
| logistics which can benefit the greater density of packing?
|
| I am guessing this is something to do with fuel savings, and new
| composite materials meaning that smaller planes are still more
| efficient. However, would that necessarily apply to recent
| 747s/a380s which I think have composite materials and can be
| retrofitted to efficient engines? I figure these specific planes
| must be on sale as they are withdrawn from service so I am
| curious about the use of 767s here.
| nickff wrote:
| The A340, A380, 727, 747, and L-1011 existed because of the
| hub-and-spoke model, and the requirement for a minimum of three
| engines for transoceanic flights. The 777 was the harbinger of
| their doom, as it brought ETOPS with it.
|
| Somewhat tangentially, there is a (strong) argument that twin-
| engine aircraft are actually safer than three or four engine
| aircraft. First, they are at lower risk of having an engine
| problem (as they have fewer engines). Second, the requirements
| all focus on having sufficient performance with a single engine
| out, which means that a twin engine aircraft normally has at
| least 200% of the power required to keep it aloft, whereas the
| four-engine aircraft only has 133% of what it needs. Given that
| many problems can be solved with a sufficient application of
| power, the twin-engine airplane is actually at an advantage!
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS
| jrockway wrote:
| What is interesting to me is that having 200% power onboard
| is more cost efficient than only having 133% power onboard.
| Theodores wrote:
| The 767s are twin engine and more efficient than the 747.
|
| The A380 never was a cargo plane, big that it is. It also has
| the four engines with the added maintenance.
| xvf22 wrote:
| Cargo companies seem to have older fleets and the 767s are
| being displaced from passenger service and have a cargo
| conversation option. The a380 doesn't have a cargo conversation
| option as far as I've seen. Plenty of old 747s are in service
| for cargo flights. Kalitta air has a bunch of older 747s and
| Atlas has a sizable fleet including some 8Fs.
| formercoder wrote:
| Pretty sure I've read there will never be a cargo a380
| because its max takeoff weight is low compared to its volume.
| csours wrote:
| I think cause and effect may be chasing each other here.
| You're not wrong, but also the A380 was not designed to
| have a high takeoff weight because they never intended it
| to carry cargo, so it will never carry cargo because it has
| a low takeoff weight compared to its volume.
|
| It was a design decision to be a people mover. [0]
|
| 0: https://www.flexport.com/blog/airbus-a380-no-cargo-
| equivalen...
| simonh wrote:
| This reminds me of when Ryanair bought 100 Boeing 737-800
| aircraft in 2002 after 9/11 hammered the airline industry[0], a
| very bold forward looking move. It was good for Ryanair and for
| Boeing.
|
| [0]
| https://www.theguardian.com/business/2002/jan/24/theairlinei...
| nixass wrote:
| Right now Ryanair has almost 200 737-800MAX on order,
| significant amount of these were added during MAX grounding as
| the prices went down a lot. Bold looking move again, but still
| shitiest airliner out there
| W-Stool wrote:
| If UPS is not looking over their shoulder, they should be.
| moltar wrote:
| I predicted in October of 2018 [1], that in 3 years Amazon will
| start flying freight directly from China to US fulfillment
| centers and cut out the middlemen (FBA sellers). Since then
| Amazon has been on-boarding sellers in China at a rapid pace.
|
| - [1] https://www.scaleleap.com/zine/just-in-time-air/
| grogenaut wrote:
| To me in 2014 it was really dumb that Chinese sellers were
| using USA middlemen to get on Amazon instead of just directly
| selling on Amazon. In general it seems dumb that any
| manufacturer isn't just selling direct to consumer if they have
| a consumer finished product on Amazon.
|
| However one insight into the reason is embedded in this
| anecdote: My friend was asked by a Chinese supplier to sell a
| thing on Amazon. But the seller then went on to try and
| transfer all of the inventory risk, and customer support risk
| to my friend. They then also refused to give a unique license
| to the product for Amazon to my friend and also undercut their
| offer to my friend with another random person in the USA. 6
| months later the supplier listed V2 themselves on Amazon once
| the first person had built them a market and they could copy
| pasta all the english product info. Seller was left half their
| V1 inventory and had to sell at a loss to clear it.
|
| Luckily my friend only burned the Amazon seller fee during the
| trial period and their time.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| It's difficult to really get a grasp on Amazon's size but it was
| a bit eye opening the other day when I was driving down a rural
| road up in the mountains and passed by an Amazon delivery van. I
| would have assumed for such a remote location that they'd turn
| their packages over to the post office to deliver but apparently
| their delivery service is large enough now to service even the
| very rural areas.
| [deleted]
| echelon wrote:
| You're probably overlooking the Amazon distribution center that
| isn't far away.
| cosmodisk wrote:
| Here in the UK, Amazon dumped some of the largest last mile
| logistics companies and rolled out their own fleet of delivery
| vans.
| vmchale wrote:
| Makes sense, they're getting good deals rn with the way airlines
| are doing.
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