[HN Gopher] Software That Sucks Less ___________________________________________________________________ Software That Sucks Less Author : jhallenworld Score : 143 points Date : 2021-01-12 19:11 UTC (3 hours ago) (HTM) web link (suckless.org) (TXT) w3m dump (suckless.org) | tathougies wrote: | Runit is amazing, and a great replacement for standard init on | embedded systems | arp242 wrote: | Yes, but it's not part of suckless. | jonatron wrote: | Slock is the only one I use, but it's great. | jezze wrote: | I see a lot of people here complain about their toxic community. | This was always the worst thing about suckless and it put a lot | of people off about trying to engage and help out, including me. | Luckily the most toxic of them all left a few years ago now and | the mailing list is now a lot better compared to how it used to | be. I'm not on irc anymore so dont know about the conversations | happening there but I hope it also has become better. Its | interesting how one persons bad influence can throw shade on an | entire community. Most of them are really nice. | zamalek wrote: | It boggles the mind that developers, who believe that software | should be minimal and do one thing well, attach toxic political | agendas to their software[1] for no good reason. From a pragmatic | standpoint Nazism (and all forms of racism) is pointless | expenditure of mental resources and over-complicates life in | general; which seems to conflict pretty strongly with their | claimed ethos for software. | | [1]: https://twitter.com/kuschku/status/1156488420413362177 | eznzt wrote: | Ever heard of codes of conduct? | zamalek wrote: | Sure, but I'm referring to a developer community who | specifically aims to create "software that does one thing and | one thing only." Having a political agenda is doing another | thing. | eznzt wrote: | They don't shove that political agenda into their software, | do they? It's just something they do as a group of friends. | caeril wrote: | You're living about ten years in the past. | | Kicking contributors out of open source projects, or dis- | inviting speakers from technical conferences due to their | _purely personal_ opinions has been going on for a while | now. | | You don't need to act on wrongthink to get unpersoned by | the mob. | | This has, of course, led to a situation where there are | still a bunch of nazis, misogynists, etc, in our | profession and communities, but they've learned to STFU | and/or engage with much better OPSEC. So now you'll never | actually know. Out of sight, out of mind. | | (to stay somewhat on-topic, yes, suckless, and dwm in | particular, is awesome) | paedubucher wrote: | Please also consider looking at the other picture of the same | conference: https://suckless.org/conferences/2017/ | | "But Hitler also started his movement in the Bierkeller!!!1" | ;-) | combo6000 wrote: | --- sck lSS --- | bitwize wrote: | Actually it makes perfect sense. | | In order to truly democratize access to computers, you must | meet your users where they are. That means you have to put in a | lot of hard work and abandon your academic elitist norms of | "elegance" in favor of _empathy_. The real world is messy, your | users have messy minds, so your software is going to be | accordingly complex and messy. Embrace this. Your users will be | better off for it. | | Empathy is inimical to the Unix philosophy. "Do one thing and | do it well" forces the user to cobble solutions together out of | the tools they have lying around, and not all of them can do | this. This causes stress. The empathetic programmer seeks to | minimize stress by putting everything the user may wish to do | within their reach, the unempathetic programmer just doesn't | care. If you can't understand the system on its own terms, | well, sucks to be you. This creates a hierarchy of haves and | have-nots: power users, hackers, and the l33t who can engage | with the system on its own terms, and "lusers" who cannot | engage with it meaningfully at all, which suits the power users | just fine -- that's the endgame of Unix-philosophy | fundamentalism. | | Nazism and fascism are political philosophies embraced by | unempathetic people, so it's no surprise that the empathy- | deficient Unix-philosophy hardliners also turn out to be Nazis. | transmogrifex wrote: | git gud scrub | arp242 wrote: | Congratulations, you've made the most ridiculous comment I've | ever seen on HN. I can't stop laughing. | | The only lack of empathy I see here is a failure in | understanding that not everyone uses computers in the same | way as you prefer. That's okay, we're all different. You can | do your thing and what works for you, and I'll do mine and | what works for me. | | Signed. | | One of those unempathetic Unix types and Nazi. | paedubucher wrote: | I smirked a bit when I saw that picture, because the camo | trousers and the bald heads look a bit edgy in that context. | But hiking with torches is nothing strange here, at least not | in Switzerland. We often do this in the winter, for example | when walking to a Christmas dinner together with all the | employees from the company. | monopoledance wrote: | In Germany this has a very clear Gschmackle and is not a | common activity. Unless you are a Nazi. Then it's all about | Fackelmarsche, of course. | nix23 wrote: | >But hiking with torches is nothing strange here, at least | not in Switzerland. | | Yes true, and half of the males have the Springerstiefel | (from the militaryservice) on, because they have no other | watertight shoes at home. | zamalek wrote: | Is calling a mail server "Wolfsschanze" also common in | Switzerland? | arp242 wrote: | Going from a single host name to "literal Nazis!" is quite | the leap. And everything else like "they walked with | torches, ergo they must be Nazis" is not even leap, but | just outright BS. | bitwize wrote: | They also railed against "cultural marxism" which is a | dogwhistle phrase coined and used by -- wait for it -- | the Nazis. | | When you take together all the fashy things they do, it | kind of establishes a pattern that maaaaybe they _don 't_ | believe in brotherhood and equality. | arp242 wrote: | Like I said, there's some context to that; quoting from | the thread: | | _" I took some more time to read it up and from what I | could see, I found that indeed cultural marxism has | become more of a political slogan rather than a normal | theoretical term in the USA. | | Here in Germany the term "Kulturmarxismus" is much less | politically charged from what I can see and thus I was | surprised to get this response after I just had | "translated" this term into English. It might be a lesson | to first get some background on how this might be | perceived internationally, however, it is a gigantic task | for every term that might come around to you. | | So to reiterate my question, what term could be better | used instead? :)"_ | | I don't speak German well enough to really have an | opinion on the veracity of the claims here, but I see no | reason to immediately assume the worst or to doubt that | this is how _this particular person_ intended to use this | term. People get confused about language all the time, | and I 'd rather look at the full context instead of | getting all hung up on a single term. | | This is not an endorsement of those views - far from it - | but I really take issue how people just just to the worst | possible conclusions on things like this. | | [1]: | https://lobste.rs/s/nf3xgg/i_am_leaving_llvm#c_lfctpe | paedubucher wrote: | No, that's not common. I guess that their humor is beyond | edgy for most people. A related page is cat-v.org, which | contains similar edgy jokes (see "Herrensystem 9" | http://glenda.cat-v.org/gallery/) | bitwize wrote: | Dropping casual fash references means you probably are | fash. We've moved on from not taking edgelord Nazi | references seriously since the late 2000s. | | I knew suckless were assholes whose software philosophy | was unworkable in the real world, but their casual nazism | just makes me want to avoid them more. | skissane wrote: | The fact that it also jokes about Erich Honecker makes it | seem like it is more about a like for bad taste jokes | than a like for Nazism. | | East German Communism and Nazism were both odious, but | they are largely incompatible forms of odiousnesses. | vlovich123 wrote: | The "do one thing and do it well ethos" is a UNIX academic | philosophy, specifically around command line tools. Most | software neither write code like that nor necessarily ascribe | to such a philosophy. | | I can both hate the ideology and accept the software as having | utility for me (not that I think I've used any of it, but in | principle I have no problem with people being fascinated by | TempleOS even though I am against a lot of the things the | author has stated he stands for). | imiric wrote: | Great tools and philosophy on software. I think their political | views and whatever online drama they're involved in is hardly | relevant to my enjoyment of their software. | | st is my favorite terminal and surf my favorite web browser. It | does take some effort to add the features you need and to keep | them updated, but once everything is in place they're a joy to | use. | | The development on surf has stagnated in recent years, a few | sites are unusable for me and the performance is terrible | compared to mainstream browsers, but the simplicity and | customization more than make up for it. | | surf would make a great base to build a simple browser for the | masses, if a competent C developer would polish some of these | issues and added a more user friendly UI, while still staying | true to the suckless philosophy. But so far unfortunately I | haven't seen a particular fork pick up steam. | boogies wrote: | > a simple browser for the masses [with] more user friendly UI | | I think you mean GNOME Web/Epiphany. They both use | libwebkit2gtk (https://webkitgtk.org/) as a base (as does | luakit, a fairly simple and customizable browser that I'll | probably switch to if/when Palemoon breaks Pentadactyl). | imiric wrote: | I've tried Epiphany, but it's still too bloated for my | preferences, not customizable enough and I'd like to keep | GNOME packages out of my system. :) | | Luakit is more to my liking, and I think I gave it a try a | few years ago but can't remember what put me off about it. At | first glance it has features I don't need like adblocking (I | use a DNS blocker on my router) and tabs, but it's promising. | I'll give it another try, thanks. | | I've also tried a few of these libwebkitgtk wrappers like | qutebrowser, dwb, lariza, uzbl, etc. but they all had some | drawbacks compared to surf. | | And I can't say I trust the Palemoon or Waterfox developers | to maintain a Firefox fork. It's a gargantuan job, which is | why I prefer the relative simplicity of the WebKit wrappers. | Ideally I'd like to switch to a simpler rendering engine as | well, but sadly the modern web is built with WebKit | compatibility in mind. | Barrin92 wrote: | the strange nazism aside which is bad enough I honestly think | their programming philosophy sucks. | | Why is it sensible to configure a software in C and having to | recompile it every time I make a change? Patching software | through diffs is error prone and you basically have to fiddle | around with the order as to not accidentally mess up your entire | program, it makes the software basically non-extensible in a sane | way because there's no interface between extension and core code. | The line number limits on code also incentivize spaghetti code. | If you want software that sucks less you don't need fewer line | numbers, you need good program structure and design. | tathougies wrote: | Nazism? | zarkov99 wrote: | You know, one day we might see real Nazis but we won't have a | word for them anymore. | recursive wrote: | Elsewhere in the thread, it's noted that they maintain a mail | server that's named after some nazi stronghold or something. | LukeShu wrote: | Not a mail server, an individual person's laptop. | | _> these mails originate from a host called | "wolfsschanze", which appears to be the laptop a certain | Laslo Hunhold works from (their conf organizer?)_ | | -- the tweet in the thread that you're mentioning | necrotic_comp wrote: | It's probably just poor humor, but it doesn't reflect well | on them. | fossuser wrote: | I'm less likely to assume humor given what's going on in | politics. | | You can think marxism sucks (I do) without torchlight | marches and nazi naming schemes. | | The latter is something else. | MajesticHobo2 wrote: | In addition to that, "Cultural Marxism" doesn't just | refer to Marxism. It's an antisemitic canard used pretty | much exclusively by the far right. | recursive wrote: | FWIW this was all several years ago. I don't know if the | mail server still exists with the same name. | | And I still don't know what's wrong with a torchlight | hike/march. (They call it a hike, you call it a march) It | sounds like something I'd do. | varjag wrote: | They did Tiki torch march a couple weeks after | Charlottesville, which am sure is just another | unfortunate coincidence. Can happen to anyone! | flukus wrote: | They did it in Germany, where Charlottesville was likely | a 30 second news clip that everyone forgot about. | | Stop with the cultural imperialism, race relations in the | US are rather unique. | varjag wrote: | I am in Europe, it was top news for many days. | fossuser wrote: | Maybe it's just wildly bad self-awareness mixed with | being obnoxious, but maybe it's not: | https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/12/us/white-nationalists- | tiki-to... | | The torches are used as a symbol - might be nothing, but | paired with speaking out against cultural marxism it's | more likely to be intentional than it otherwise would be. | | I don't know, but I'm not giving them the benefit of the | doubt since the mail server is fairly explicit if true. | | When people tell you who they are, believe them. | Rotten194 wrote: | I think they're referring to this?: | https://twitter.com/kuschku/status/1156488420413362177 | | disclaimer: found on Google, unsure of context / if these | people are core developers, just sharing for those who like | me were also confused | generalizations wrote: | Sounds like there's too much being read into it. | | I use st, it's one of the best terminal emulators I've | found, and I'm not going to stop using it just because some | possibly-associated dev made a kinda-sorta-tasteless joke | when they named some random server. | arp242 wrote: | It's just a social event they did. Nothing to it. The | conversation continued a bit with a discussion on what | exactly what means with "cultural marxism", and it's not as | bas as this snippet might make it appear. But can't add | context lest people give the benefit of the doubt, ey? | dijit wrote: | I actually like suckless software and I'm a little (lot) | annoyed by the overwhelming "sides" of politics, | especially the left because a lot of US tech comes from a | left wing belief and sometimes people online beat me over | the head with it and make me annoyed. | | But, to be clear, there are three things here: | | 1) They're doing a Tiki Torch walk, during a time when it | was heavily politicised. | | 2) They're adapting Nazi slogans as hostnames | | 3) They're denigrating "Cultural Marxism". | | Any one of these alone I would probably defend, but 3 is | a pattern and not a good one. | arp242 wrote: | > 1) They're doing a Tiki Torch walk, during a time when | it was heavily politicised. | | No it wasn't; just in the US. Not everyone in the world | is obsessed with the latest drama in the US. | | I've done many torchwalks with scouts. In fact, they're | used to celebrate the end of the Nazi occupation in my | home town every single year on Sept 18th. Should we stop | doing this because some yahoos on the other side of the | world used some torches in some far-right march? This is | "Hitler has a moustache, you have a moustache, ergo you | must be a Nazi"-kind of logic. | | > 2) They're adapting Nazi slogans as hostnames | | A private server belonging to a single person, not the | project. I have asked him plainly and directly about that | and he avoided the question. I am also not impressed by | this, but that doesn't make him a Nazi, and it certainly | doesn't make everyone involved in the project a Nazi. | | > 3) They're denigrating "Cultural Marxism". | | A single person is (same one as the hostname). And like I | said, there is a lot more to that conversation than the | screenshot makes it out to be as there was a lot of | confusion about what's intended with "cultural marxism". | I really recommend you read the entire conversation in | full, and while I don't personally agree with their take, | it's also really not that bad. | [deleted] | [deleted] | boogies wrote: | Strange arguable libel aside, you don't have to compile your wm | or terminal every time you make a change. There are awesomewm | (and echinus and spectrwm and Qtile et al.), and xterm and | GNOME Terminal and guake and konsole and xfce terminal and | Terminator and Terminology and Tilda and Yakuake and rxvt et | al., many al.: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/List_of_app | lications/Ut.... | | Setting all those aside, you can configure any decent text | editor to run `make` whenever you save, and I dare you to find | any combination of patches for any single suckless software | (except surf) that takes more than 1000 milliseconds to compile | with tcc on a computer you use on a regular basis (should work | for any normal desk/laptop from the past decade or two). | drhastings wrote: | Have you tried it? | | I've not experienced any of those problems while using dwm for | the past several years. | | Where I wasn't able to find an existing diff supporting my | desired customizations I found the code easy to understand and | extend myself. | | Find me some spaghetti code in the codebase and your point | might be a little more convincing to me. | Spivak wrote: | Yeah, I'm not really sure if DRYing yourself to death is a good | approach to software development. Ansible is really really easy | to hack on and it's ~1.2mil LOC which probably horrifies the | suckless devs. | yjftsjthsd-h wrote: | I suspect a good deal of that 1.2M lines is in modules, isn't | it? Rather like how people remark on how many lines are in | Linux and overlook that it's overwhelmingly in drivers and | the actual core system is much smaller. | alex_smart wrote: | Have you even taken a look at their source code? I have read | plenty of open source projects and suckless's code is about as | unspaghettilike as it gets. I find their approach to | programming a beautiful contrast to the piles of garbage upon | other piles of garbage style over-engineered approach I have | seen elsewhere. | raspyberr wrote: | Well stuff like dwm and st should get reconfigured rarely so | this doesn't matter. And it recompiles blazingly fast anyway. | flukus wrote: | Yep, my dwm re-compiles, installs and restarts faster than a | theme change in gnome. | MayeulC wrote: | I quite like suckless software, unfortunately it is very | X-centric. | | Not sure what their view on Wayland is? | spijdar wrote: | I can't speak for the group, but my guess is in practice they | would dislike the Wayland ecosystem. A cursory google seems to | show this too. | | A lot of their tooling and favored software works by being as | minimal as possible while doing its one primary purpose well. | They dislike monoliths like systemd, pulseaudio, networkmanager | etc. which do many tasks. The wayland protocol itself is fairly | minimalist, which they seem to like, but to practically use it | you end up requiring a monolith compositor/window server. | | Further, Wayland fundamentally doesn't support running e.g. in | a non-compositing mode, and requires more cruft to draw to the | screen vs just using xlib. | | At the end of the day, all the functionality that Xorg provided | has to be served by something. And when you're not using one of | the big boy software stacks like Gnome or KDE, that means re- | implementing the wheel, or copying from another project like | wlroots. I suspect they prefer the status quo in that Xorg is | at least proven and fairly battle hardened software. | | Just idly guessing, though. | yjftsjthsd-h wrote: | It kinda cuts both ways, I suspect. Xorg is itself a huge | monolithic mess, but it takes all the messy bits into itself | and lets you extend it with nice small programs (ex. window | managers, screenshot programs, keybinding programs, | whatever). Wayland is in some ways actually better because it | removes the massive central mess that is the X server... but | then forces every other component to deal with those things, | and does so in ways that to date play badly with | composability in the software (ex. now a "window manager" is | a compositor and must do most of what the X server did | before, _and_ you can 't factor out things like screen | capture because that functionality is restricted). | hnlmorg wrote: | There's a lot of CLI tools in suckless too. I quite like their | IRC client https://tools.suckless.org/ii/ | jolmg wrote: | Some projects seem missing from the site. For example, this used | to be the home of wmi[1] and wmii[2], the ancestors of i3. | | There's quite a bit to see if one browses the site through the | WaybackMachine. | | I could've sworn it was also the home of i3 at one point, but I | can't find it in the history, so maybe I'm mistaken about that. I | also thought all 3 were started by the same author, but I'm not | so sure anymore. EDIT: It was different people. Anselm R. Garbe | started wmi and wmii, Michael Stapelberg started i3. | | [1] | https://web.archive.org/web/20090315090203/http://wmi.suckle... | | [2] | https://web.archive.org/web/20090315090203/http://wmii.suckl... | tfolbrecht wrote: | You're probably thinking of dwm. Another great tiling window | manager. | [deleted] | asciimov wrote: | I've been using both dwm and dmenu for about a year now. I enjoy | them as they do their thing and get out of the way. | stevefolta wrote: | I switched to dwm a couple of weeks ago after using Ratpoison | for years and years, and I'm super happy with it. It solves the | things that bugged me about Ratpoison. The one feature I was | missing was very easy to add myself (the equivalent of "set | padding" in monocle mode). | paedubucher wrote: | I've been using dwm since 2010 and and still don't consider | changing that. I use st at home (qterminal at work). dwm in | combination with dmenu, slstatus, and slock runs fast on every | machine with minimal resources and doesn't waste a pixel of | your screen. | boogies wrote: | Same, plus st, which doesn't even do tmux's (or their tool | scroll1's) scrollback thing and get a scrollbar or extraneous | scrolling key bindings in the way (unless you apply the | scrollback patch2). | | 1https://git.suckless.org/scroll/file/README.html | 2https://st.suckless.org/patches/scrollback/ | jhallenworld wrote: | I recently found out about them for "tabbed" (in the tools | project)- converts xterm into a tabbed terminal emulator. | leephillips wrote: | I love their software and their attitude. | | I've been using dwm for years and it's the perfect window | manager. Configuration by editing the header and recompiling | makes sense when compilation takes under a second. | | I'm not much of a C programmer, but I like that I can sort of | understand their code. A window manager in 2000 lines means that | if I wanted to I could understand how the whole thing works. | | It's all refreshing, and even, I would say, beautiful. I like | that my environment uses very little memory, leaving my ram for | actually doing things. | Kuinox wrote: | Wonderful. | | dwm, dmenu, and st. | | Good naming is required to have code of good quality. These name | are too short, they lack of clarity. | | A good name is concise, give the point, and is pronoucable. | KingMachiavelli wrote: | I love the names: | | dynamic window manager, dynamic menu, suckless terminal | | The names are all very clear once you know the naming | convention. | koenigdavidmj wrote: | dwm: Don't care what the D stands for, but there are a bunch | of X11 window managers ending in 'wm' so that's probably what | this is too. | | dmenu: Since it's coming from the same place as dwm, it's | probably a menu app that goes well with it. | | st isn't obvious, I agree, but it makes sense to give a short | name to the program you use most frequently. | makapuf wrote: | I can agree, but the terminal emulator is something I very | rarely launch from the command line. I run it from a menu, | or an icon. Maybe with keyboard but then its meta+T | Kuinox wrote: | The origin of the name are clear, but the name itself should | describe what is it because these name can be find out of | context. | | These names can't be easily understandood without context. | And these name will be found without context: For exemple, | you may meet this name in a process list. In this case you | don't understand why the process "dwm" is eating a lot of gpu | power. | | A variable name can be short, because it's name will be found | in it's context. | asymptosis wrote: | I guess you're not a fan of "du", "df" or "su" either. | Kuinox wrote: | No I'm not a fan of them either, I forgot their name all | the times and need to google them every year when I need | to cleanup my seedbox. | Mediterraneo10 wrote: | Suckless tools are meant for hardcore *nix hackers who | already know how to look up this information, so no, the | naming doesn't really matter. Anyone who knows how to use | the ps command will also know the man command, so if | someone wants to know what that dwm process is, they can | just do "man dwm". | Kuinox wrote: | "My name is not bad, every words that is in it can be | found in the latin dictionary." | geofft wrote: | Is that a convention, or just what they stand for? (Do the | window manager and the menu suck, because they don't have the | "s" prefix? Is st static because it doesn't have the "d" | prefix? Why do we abbreviate "terminal" but not "menu" / why | not follow the established abbreviation of "term" as in | xterm, dtterm, eterm, etc.? How come the "s" prefix in sprop | and sselp stands for "simple" instead of "suckless"?) | Shared404 wrote: | It's enough of a convention that after knowing it I can | read through their list and know what I'm looking at. | | Seems like enough to me. | chacha2 wrote: | Wait till you hear what the rest of the English language is | doing... | paedubucher wrote: | Is plan9 a good name for an operating system? It's named after | (arguably) the worst movie ever. It's even bad as a trash | movie. Is the code quality of plan9 bad? | nix23 wrote: | And Linux is named after a rude developer..or Washing- | soap..who knows. An Oracle is the opposite you want of a | Database, but Intel made a really good promise for others | (Meltdown's). Google the searchengine is written wrong -> | Goggles and and and ;) | kubanczyk wrote: | > Google the searchengine is written wrong -> Goggles | | A ha! One of today's Lucky 10000... https://xkcd.com/1053/ | officeplant wrote: | Wait do you really think Google is referencing Goggles and | not Googolplex? | Aeronwen wrote: | Googol 10^100 not Googolplex 10^(10^100). | | Googol or goggles, it's still just a typo someone decided | to keep in mind for a name. | nix23 wrote: | Yeah they try to rewrite history i think, but if you look | at the old logo the G looks like Goggles, it's also more | logic to call your search-engine goggle, and not a | number, but anything is better then BackRub. | Kuinox wrote: | Are you comparing an operating system with a window manager ? | | We name products with odd name because they are products, you | want to be different. | | Parts of this product are rarely named differently, a | windshield is still called a windshield, not a "wdsd". | nix23 wrote: | >a windshield is still called a windshield, not a "wdsd". | | Embraer calls it's Side-Windows in the Cockpit DV's (Direct | Vision) | | SSD's have no Disk. | | My WM is called i3 my File-manger Thunar or MC..Firefox | whatever that is, git? Java? Go? C the successor of B.. | recursive wrote: | I assumed the D stood for drive. | nix23 wrote: | Hmm, it looks from this article all three are used: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_drive | | >sometimes called a solid-state device or a solid-state | disk | Kuinox wrote: | SSD litteraly mean Solid State Drive. | | Embrear does marketing, adding shiny names make it look | better, it's like retina, it mean nothing but people | think it mean it's a good screen. | | IMO i3 is badly named, I did read it multiple time _in | context_ and I only found out later that it was a window | manager.. | | git, java, go and c and are pronouncable name and are | most of the time in context. | | It's funny that you put firefox in the middle, because | when an old person I know started to use computers for | his first time, I learned him to use Chrome. When I came | back several week later, he was using Internet Explorer. | Why ? Because it's called Internet Explorer and he forgot | about chrome. | nix23 wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_drive | | >sometimes called a solid-state device or a solid-state | disk | | >and are most of the time in context. | | With git your are right | | >because when an old person I know started to use | computers for his first time, I learned him to use | Chrome. | | That's why you exchange the Chrome icon with the Internet | explorer one, but let's just call everything Browser or | WWW-Explorer ok? | | > I did read it multiple time _in context_ and I only | found out later that it was a window manager.. | | Then work on your internal memory system and don't blame | others for it...btw i3 is also a Car, not that your even | more confused next time when someone wants to show you a | i3 in a Parking slot. | MisterTea wrote: | https://harmful.neocities.org/ | snarfy wrote: | A good friend introduced me to suckless many years ago. he | tried contributing but was shut down at ever turn. They are a | very closed group. | rectang wrote: | This appears to an insider rant against suckless. It starts off | like so: | | > clearing some things up re: cat-v | | > [context: this was produced for a particular community. if | this doesnt mean anything to you, dont worry] | | > i am not within cat-v, i.e. "one of them" or a particular | friend of anyone within it, but it was quite formative for me | (on the technical side) from when i was about 14 years old, and | i would like to provide the requisite context to view the whole | ordeal charitably, and clear up some misconceptions suckless | | > first of all, suckless are shitheels. fuck em six ways to | sunday. | jd3 wrote: | (not the OP of that site, but here are my 2C/) | | I started really getting into computers and open source | software around 2010/2011 and cat-v (I was first introduced to | golang through uriel pereira's[0] proselytization) and suckless | were both a pretty big inspiration to me at the time. | | I used dwm/st for years, but have since transitioned back to | using ctwm/xterm as I find them more approachable and easier to | use/extend. xterm may be "bloated and unmaintainable" according | to the suckless community[1], but it has low latency, a pretty | simple config, solid UTF-8 support, and is installed by default | in most X11 environments that I use (I need to bounce around | Windows/macOS/*bsd a lot). | | Personally, I think the biggest problem is that there is | definitely a bit of ego involved in these respective | communities. When I tried participating back in ~2011, rather | than realizing I was an impressionable high schooler/teenage | kid who could use a solid mentor to guide them through the | fundamentals of X11/C/go/etc, I was instead basically laughed | out of the irc channel which led me to never participate in | their community again and instead just learn/work on projects | on my own. | | I am still aesthetically interested in a lot of the | cat-v/suckless software, but the | politics/drama/exclusivity/negativity of it all (particularly | in the early 2010s) steered me away from ever really | participating in their respective communities. | | I am also less interested in tooling/ui/customization than I | was back then, so I basically just tend to use whatever program | gets the job done rather than obsessing over | theory/purity/minimalism. I don't have a problem with those who | do care about these things (I am not trying to criticize | suckless as they do do a lot of great work), it's just no | longer something I think about as much. | | [0]: http://uriel.cat-v.org/ | | [1]: https://st.suckless.org/ | | http://cs.gettysburg.edu/~duncjo01/sites/berlinblue/ | arp242 wrote: | > I was an impressionable high schooler/teenage kid who could | use a solid mentor to guide them through the fundamentals of | X11/C/go/etc, I was instead basically laughed out of the irc | channel | | I think people there can definitely be jerks sometimes, and I | don't really like the negativity either. | | But on the other hand, not _every_ place and community on the | internet needs to be welcoming to teenagers and mentor them | through the fundamentals of X11 /C/Go. | | I just wish people were a bit less of a jerk about it. Then | again, I _have_ said this nicely to people a few times over | the years ( "hey, cool you're interested, but note this is | really intended for expert users"), and it's about a 50/50 | toss-up about whether or not you'll get insults and an | aggressive reply back. One time this guy got so triggered | over this that he went to several subs to tell everyone what | a horrible person I was just for (nicely!) explaining that | they didn't really seem to be the intended target audience. | | Turns out that being a programmer means you're obliged to | help strangers out on the internet, according to some anyway | *shrug*. | | > I basically just tend to use whatever program gets the job | done rather than obsessing over theory/purity/minimalism | | That's pretty much why I use dwm; I use a hacked-up version | and I somehow managed to lose the source code for that 2 | years ago (not sure how...) but it's okay, because it Just | Works(tm). It's very stable, never changes, and I never need | to look at it or worry that an update will break anything or | will move things around ("now where did that button go?!") | | For me, suckless is very much a pragmatical thing, not a | "minimalist ideological" thing. | musicale wrote: | > they are cargo-cult idiots who do things like unironically | create a linux distribution with static linking as a design | goal and namesake | | I've always wondered at the docker images that a) include their | own shared libraries and b) typically only run a single | process. Seems like static linking would be fine. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-01-12 23:00 UTC)