[HN Gopher] Workaholism Leads to Mental and Physical Health Prob... ___________________________________________________________________ Workaholism Leads to Mental and Physical Health Problems Author : rustoo Score : 318 points Date : 2021-01-13 16:08 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.hse.ru) (TXT) w3m dump (www.hse.ru) | SNosTrAnDbLe wrote: | This paper has some red flags and it would be great if someone | who has experience with this domain provides more light. | | 1) The original paper is at | https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/20/7594 | | 2) The paper was written based on the findings of the software | https://wittyfit.com/ The sample is not random in any sense as it | looks like its based on 187 people who are using this software. | Correlation != Causation. | rimiform wrote: | It would be interesting to see the literature evolve beyond the | current (simplistic) model of workaholism. The current paper | isn't super clear on what their working definition is (to me), | but seems to be "a compulsion or an uncontrollable need to work | incessantly". | | How does that relate to actual work demands? The paper says that | the effort put in must beyond what is "necessary", but this is | pretty vague, and would seem off in different contexts. Am I a | studyholic if I study for an A instead of a simply 'sufficient' | C? Should we call parents who stay up helping their kids finish a | school project due tomorrow parentaholics? What is the 'correct' | amount of effort to be expended so that the scientific literature | won't label you as having a mental health problem? | | Aside from that, can this even be extricated from simple | enjoyment of work? One cited paper says: | | > Cantarow (1979) suggests that workaholics are those who seek | passionate involvement and gratification from working. Finally, | it has been observed that hard-workers often use the word 'fun' | to describe their work experiences (Kiechel, 1989; Machlowitz, | 1980). Thus, it seems that workaholics typically find working | pleasurable. | | The horror! From that same cited paper: | | > Therefore, in this paper, workaholics are defined as those who | enjoy the act of working, who are obsessed with working, and who | devote long hours and personal time to work. In short, | workaholics are those whose emotions, thoughts, and behaviors are | strongly dominated by their work. | | If I actually enjoy my job, _of course_ I 'm going to spend more | time on it! And if I don't like to exercise, or play parent, or | if I only eat what I need to keep me alive, that's going to look | like workaholism, even though it's just someone doing what they | enjoy as much as they can. That's going to lead to neglect of | other things, because there are only so many hours in a day. | That's an important part of the definition, by the way, | _neglecting_ "other parts of life" is seen as a central component | of workaholism, but this obviously applies to every activity, be | it studying, exercising, parenting, whatever. Are we supposed to | think up a portmanteau for each of these to signify individuals | who 'overindulge' by our judgment? | haram_masala wrote: | I honestly think my mental and physical health are so much better | than they should be at my age because I don't take work as | seriously as my colleagues. Though, I'm fairly certain I've | missed out on a few promotions. | pbrb wrote: | I'm with you this. I still do work very hard and definitely too | much, but I made a decision in my mid 20s to never let work | stress actually affect me. Or, at least try not to. I think it | actually helped me get promoted when working at startups, but | now that I'm working at an 'elite' company, I've definitely | missed out on promotions. I'm just not willing to work 14 hr | days, every day, to hit arbitrary dates on a calendar. | ggm wrote: | We're stuck on the hourly rate. | | The idea of saying "work only 3 or 4 days a week" invites the | immediate fear "but how will I survive on less pay" | | Try on for size: "work only 4 days. we're not cutting your pay" | hehehaha wrote: | Working yourself to death is a real thing. And often times, | people are forced into these tracks due to competition and | pressure. At some point I came to a conclusion that competition | does not bring out the best in people and I refuse to work in a | contrived environment where such behaviors are encouraged. | nomy99 wrote: | I literally worked till I dropped during the holidays. I was | committing code, got up to stretch, hit my head on furniture and | passed out lol. I don't think I am workaholic. This happened | because the project was mismanaged and failure to delivery would | cost the company a large sum of money (due to contract | negotiations with vendors etc) | dunemaster wrote: | As a freelance concept artist and illustrator I pull regular all | nighters but when I'm into the zone drawing worlds and characters | from pure imagination, I lose track of time and space. After some | time of not sleeping it feels like my head is floating mid air, I | don't know which day of the week it is and the last time I looked | out the window the sun was going up, now it's early morning | again. It doesn't interfere with my life because art completes | and lifts me into a higher state of consciousness. It's rare and | remarkable | yobert wrote: | Programming does this for me too. I think it's as important to | make space for this in your life, as it is to make space for | other things too. | | I believe doing work at that level of immersion is actually | hugely beneficial to your life and mental health. There was | just an article on HN the other day about a 104 year old | submitting his PHD thesis. Super cool! | bsharitt wrote: | I can sort of understand people who own their own businesses or | otherwise have jobs where the amount they put in is directly | related to how much they get back putting in tons of hours and | basically centering their life around their work, but I can't | quite figure out regular salaried employee workaholics. | random5634 wrote: | I'm in the have high job demands and high job control situation, | it's still totally miserable. | | Good article. | brundolf wrote: | > There are potential reasons for that: financial problems, ... | | Does it really count as an addiction if you're doing it because | of genuine financial problems? I always thought of proper | workaholism as an unhealthy addiction to the dopamine rush you | get when you're successful at your job. I've experienced a mild | version of this in the past when I didn't have enough else that | was fulfilling me in my life; like many addictions, it was a | crutch against depression. | nprateem wrote: | *aholisms are normally so good for your health. Who knew?! | ojnabieoot wrote: | The most important point from the study: | | > We found that job demands could be the most important factor | that can develop work addiction risk. So this factor should be | controlled or should be investigated by the organization's | manager, for example, HR staff, psychologists. | | My last job could be described as "workaholism" but what was | really going on was | | 1) my manager had a toxic relationship with their manager and | were unfairly overworked | | 2) they passed this attitude on to their subordinates | | 3) the really ugly part: although my manager had high | _expectations_ , they were not very good about actual | enforcement, so work from "underperforming" (< 45 hr/week) | teammates was dumped onto "adequate" (> 60 hrs) employees, | without any planning or accountability - or, crucially, any | flexibility. I had never had a boss who took less responsibility | for their worker's projects. | | Speaking for myself: I have a serious mental illness and not a | lot of economic stability. So although I am a decent programmer | (when I am well) I am very susceptible to stress-related | illnesses. In November and December I ended up losing about 20% | of my body weight, entirely due to work stress, and had to | resign. I really tried my best to get my boss to listen and | didn't have the heart or strength to drag them into HR :( | | Just an ugly situation when managers don't take responsibility | for the health of their employees. Especially when the issue is | their own stress and inexperience versus greed. | wincy wrote: | After our second daughter was born with a disability and we | didn't know if she'd make it to her first birthday I threw myself | into my new job utterly. I was working 7-7 almost every day, took | every opportunity to travel, and in general was absent from the | situation as much as my "very important job" would allow. | | For me I felt completely powerless at the hospital. At work I got | to solve "important" problems that were trivial in comparison to | the things I had no control over, and was rewarded for doing so. | It felt good to be useful when my life felt in complete chaos | outside of work. | | At one point I stayed up all night to wrap up a project that | wasn't even that important. My boss, rather than being happy with | me, sat me down and said I needed to make sure to sleep and take | care of myself, that I was going to burn myself out. I really | appreciate him saying that in retrospect, even though I felt a | little offended at the time. I try to balance work and home life, | and have developed a great relationship with my daughter, now | two. | | In retrospect I wish I'd had the emotional stability to spend | more time at the hospital, and to provide more emotional support | for my wife who was saddled with going to the hospital almost | every day. | | Things are better now, our daughter is doing very well, but the | workaholism can be because of external factors, as overworking | made me able to ignore the other, more depressing parts of my | life where I lacked control. | zaczekadam wrote: | Wow, that feels relatable. Glad your family is doing better | now! | jolmg wrote: | I don't know the specifics, but if the extra work meant more | money, that might've been a good way help the situation by | ensuring there was more money to address the medical costs or | allow more availability for your wife to attend to your | daughter. | wincy wrote: | At least in Kansas, because she's permanently disabled she'll | have Medicaid as secondary insurance until she's an adult. It | covers the nightly nursing care, she has central sleep apnea | and can't yet tolerate a full mask so someone has to watch | her at night to make sure she doesn't forget to breathe. We | don't even have to pay copays for her doctors visits. We get | the EOB with the costs paid sometimes and my eyes about pop | out of my head at how expensive a week at the children's | hospital is. | | Surprisingly enough, because I was unemployed the day she was | born, even if she hadn't been disabled the birth would have | been "free" (no out of pocket costs to me or my wife) because | neither parent was employed when she was born. | fairity wrote: | I'd try not to beat yourself up over this too much. As you've | described, you had little to no control over the situation. In | cases like this, I think it's often actually healthy to focus | on things you do control (so long as it's not at the detriment | to your overall health/well-being). | agumonkey wrote: | We all learn lessons as we go. Working probably saved you some | bits too, it's a compromise. Your boss was very empathetic. | | Best wishes for the rest. | stroz wrote: | Glad to hear your daughter is doing well! Your story really | captures a lot about the experience of attempting to find some | sense of control in a situation where you feel powerless. What | do you think it would have taken to develop the emotional | stability to approach this differently (i.e. being able to show | up at the hospital) or do you believe that experience is the | only way to learn some of these lessons? | wincy wrote: | I don't really know. I have a few ideas though based on my | experience. | | Our friends and extended family disappeared as soon as our | daughter was born. I don't know if it's American culture or | what, but people get extremely uncomfortable around people | who are mourning or going through trials in their lives. | People sort of blank out then don't hang out with you | anymore, or even invite you to things. After all, you're | going through a lot, we'll just give you plenty of space. | | The hospitals do their absolute best to isolate you too, | unless you wanna go talk to the psychiatrist and get some | medication. Groups would come to volunteer and make food for | the parents of the patients (Taco Tuesday every day, it was | kind of awful), and they'd laugh and joke around and high | five each other for being so great volunteering (or at least | that's how it felt), while interacting with us people eating | as much as possible. Somehow it made me feel worse. | | My wife got "tattled on" a few times by medical staff when | she'd cry, such as when they said our daughter was terminal. | It was infuriating that perfectly healthy grief gets you | immediately referred to a psychiatrist. | | Honestly being at work was nice because I could do normal | stuff and have normal social interactions. At the hospital | they constantly cycle the staff through, so you don't have | the same doctor more than two weeks, or the same nurse more | than a couple days. I guess the trauma of being around dying | babies is just too much. | | With a couple of notable exceptions on my wife's side of the | family, we felt completely isolated and alone. I can't say | for sure but I think having a strong network of people who | actually gave a shit (or even acted like they do) would have | done wonders for my mental health. Then again I have a | sneaking suspicion that would solve most mental health issues | for a lot of people. | | The whole ordeal has made me much more distant from my | brothers and sisters and mother, unfortunately. | [deleted] | fatnoah wrote: | >For me I felt completely powerless at the hospital. At work I | got to solve "important" problems that were trivial in | comparison to the things I had no control over, and was | rewarded for doing so. It felt good to be useful when my life | felt in complete chaos outside of work. | | Wow, did this resonate with me. In my case, I was suffering | from depression, though I didn't realize it at the time. The | extreme focus required by work distracted me from how miserable | I was. I dreaded going home and constantly came up with excuses | to go to the office on weekends. | bitbuilder wrote: | I'm sure a lot of us can relate. | | One of my best memories from my career: I was sitting at my | desk at 8pm "working" because I had "so much to do". When in | reality I was just dreading going home. A coworker that I | barely new dropped by my desk and said "Things aren't going | well at home, are they? Me either." We proceeded to head | across the street to a bar to share stories. It helped | immensely at that time. | | I make an effort to pay it forward. If you see someone in the | office at all hours, especially when wfh is an option, odds | are good things aren't going great for them. Even just a | simple "How are things going with you?" over the water cooler | can go a long ways. | scarby2 wrote: | > One of my best memories from my career: I was sitting at | my desk at 8pm "working" because I had "so much to do". | When in reality I was just dreading going home. | | This used to be a daily thing for me. I would stay at the | office from 10 am to 10pm most days not really working but | i just didn't want to go home. | agumonkey wrote: | I wonder if other cultures or other eras knew how to deal | with that better. | | Ignoring and distracting problems through side gigs... | ct0 wrote: | Reminds me a lot of this document : | http://www.structuredprocrastination.com/ | vmception wrote: | I was most focused on my career after a breakup. The structure | of the work environment coupled with the reward is pretty | unparalleled. | | Other things I can think of with structure usually have a kind | of endless goal that can't be spent at your discretion. Rehab, | fitness, organized religion. I've never done rehab, but it | seems to overlap with fitness where even if you gamify it with | achievements, its not like a game at all because you have to do | the same achievement the next day and forever. | | The earnings, advancement, structure and distraction do have | their place especially when your personal relationships and | life isn't going the way you want it. | trianglem wrote: | I find all of this so hard to relate with. I've worked for a | decade, have a high paying job and have been promoted | multiple times but to me none of it is enjoyable. I don't | think I could ever be happy in a situation where I'm required | to do something for 9 hours everyday. I can't get around the | idea that all of this a weak abstraction to make money and | care very little for approval from authority figures. | astura wrote: | Work makes a great distraction for someone who is very | unhappy with their family life, has a _lot_ of emotional | suffering, or when someone feels entirely powerless over | their life circumstances. The more you work the more you | feel in control, and /or the more you distract yourself | from your feelings. The pay and job duties don't matter so | much, I know someone who is a workaholic on low paid low | skill job. | | If you don't have those personal issues, then yeah, you'd | find it hard to relate to. | vmception wrote: | Person you replied to here: my fulfillment with employment | was temporary. Like I said, I was - past tense - _most_ | fulfilled after a breakup, for some time. | | I worked for other people during internships for a few | years and after college for about 5 years before hitting a | homerun. I've never done anything for a decade and would | imagine being unfulfilled by that kind of conscription. I'm | not the kind of person content with just a job, and I | always loathed and scoffed at the surrogate "family" that | some corporate environment and startup founders try to | create. | whatshisface wrote: | What's common among the rest of the commenters is that the | rest of their life was rendered emotionally uninhabitable. | If you had nothing positive outside of work, maybe you | would see it the same way they did. | jolmg wrote: | > If you had nothing positive outside of work | | Rather than having nothing positive, I think it's having | negatives that they can't otherwise control. | jdsalaro wrote: | > Rather than having nothing positive, I think it's | having negatives that they can't otherwise control. | | Not OP, but this critique revolves mostly around | semantics and I don't find it useful or accurate. If, big | if, they had _something_ positive to look up to outside | of work, they 'd be less inclined to put all their energy | into work. That'd be the case even with multiple | negatives they couldn't control. In other words, it's the | total lack of any and all upside outside of work rather | than the existence of downsides that makes people feel | powerless and depressed. | jolmg wrote: | I make the distinction from a period of my own life. I | also avoided going home despite having many positives | because particular uncontrollable negatives held me back. | I had many reasons to want to go back, but damn if I had | to face the negatives. | filoleg wrote: | As someone who currently has a pretty emotionally stable | life and can totally relate to how you feel right now, I | think the "emotionally stable" part is what prevents you | from relating to the parent comment. | | Back when I had a lot of emotionally turbulent events | happening in my life, I was in the same boat as the parent | comment you are replying to. Things in life going extremely | sideways and leaving me heartbroken/depressed were what | pushed me to that same kind of workaholism described above. | Every single significant side project I wrote was during | some awful-feeling events happening in my life. Those were | also the times when I spent the least time doing "fun" | things (e.g., videogames), because I just didn't feel like | it. | | That drive for me had nothing to do with the actual desire | to make money or have career advancement, it was just a | mirage. In fact, I would say I have more of the actual | desire to make more money and advance in career when I am | in "good times", but the drive isn't quite there. But when | the "bad times" come, I have no actual desire for | money/career advancement. I do however get that insane | intrinsic drive to just get away from all the "bad things" | in life at that time by diving deep into | working/studying/etc. It wasn't about money, it was about | doing something productive, because most of that work (at | least for me) was just side projects that I didn't get paid | a dime for, and neither was I expecting or cared to get | paid for it. | thisisnico wrote: | Honestly my home life is significantly calmer and more | stable than my work life. Working in IT as a sysadmin, your | entire work life consists an abundance of chaos, and a lot | of things are out of your control that you can get blamed | for anyway, even if you are not blamed for something out of | your control, say office 365 is down. It still looks bad on | you. It would be nice to work in an Industry with structure | and actual rewards for your effort. | xur17 wrote: | I think it depends upon the environment. What the GP said | definitely resonates with me, but only at places where I | had a large amount of control over what I worked on, and | felt like my decisions / work affected the outcome of the | company. I've noticed this mostly at smaller companies, and | I imagine it could be similar in certain leadership roles. | indigochill wrote: | I like my job but only for the contractual 8 hours a day. | Nevertheless, I had a "this sucks and it's completely out | of my control" moment recently and threw a bunch more time | (and money) into making music. In part making music's | always been an emotional regulator for me, but this time it | was a very deliberate escape to fill my mind with composing | so I don't leave myself space to think about the thing I | don't want to think about. | | So I think escapist workaholism needn't necessarily be for | the boss man. Anything will do the job as long as it's | sufficiently consuming. | dredmorbius wrote: | A sense of agency, justfied or false, seems to be a major | factor in person's sense of control, autonomy, and self. | | _Agency is the opposite of stressors._ Agency is the capacity | to act with effect on one 's environment. Sstress is the | inability, whether through mental or physsical ability, | excessive or nonsensical information, inability to manipulate | or maneuver, or nonresponsiveness on the part of the | environment, whether inanimate, animate, or sentient. | | When faced with domains of no comtrol, individuals often seek | domains of some control. This may be career, hobby, | volunteering, sport, art, intellectual activities --- positive | adaptations. Or "kick the dog" (or spouse, children, neighbour, | scapegoat...) responses. | thedmstdmstdmst wrote: | Thank you for sharing that story. | ThisIsTheWay wrote: | Just wanted to say thank you for sharing this. It's not easy to | be vulnerable, especially when it comes to emotional | intelligence and what you could have done better. I'm happy to | hear your family is doing well. | offtop5 wrote: | While not nearly as serious, I found myself more focused on | work after a breakup back in 2019 . | | This focus was very good for me though and neeted a 80k pay | increase. However , I find myself not particularly wanting to | get into a relationship again. Felt like a very painful | experience. I'd rather make music instead . | robbyking wrote: | I know we're drifting further and further away from the | subject of the original article, but when I quit drinking I | threw myself into music pretty hard. I had a nightly practice | routine that I did to a metronome's ever increasing tempo, | until one day I realized I had just traded one obsession for | another and was starting to resent playing my guitar. | | Once I recognized the pattern it was easy to break, so when I | find myself working longer hours or getting too emotionally | involved in my work I take a step back and try to figure out | why I'm behaving in this manner in hopes of preventing future | burn out. | noir_lord wrote: | > However , I find myself not particularly wanting to get | into a relationship again. Felt like a very painful | experience. I'd rather make music instead . | | Totally normal and healthy, I felt like that when my | relationship fell apart in 2014, didn't start dating again | for about a year, met the woman I'm still (and plan to spend | the rest of my life with) the year after that, the societal | pressure to be in a relationship is real. | | Just remember to take stock occasionally and seek | professional help if _you_ feel like something is wrong, | otherwise enjoy your music. | offtop5 wrote: | >societal pressure to be in a relationship is real. | | Thanks for saying this. I had a partner who was divorced in | 2019 as well, she really made it seem like she stayed in | multiple crappy marriages to look good. | | I'm grateful for a safe place to sleep and food, which is | much more than I expected to have in my youth. | dathinab wrote: | Also in my experience: | | Workaholism is also not seldomly caused by mental (and sometimes | physical) health problem where the affected person tries to | escape reality (their past, their mind, their life etc.). | cryptica wrote: | If you're a workaholic but your job is less than useless to the | point that society would be better off if you didn't work, of | course that will lead to mental health problems... | | That said, the fact that someone would be willing to do overtime | to harm society is probably a sign of mental problems to begin | with... There is nothing more ridiculous than the idea of harming | society though charity work and yet many people are doing it | these days. | markus_zhang wrote: | I believe workaholists do not neccesarily love their job, but | hate something else so much that they would rather find some | place to take a bit of rest. | | I think I'm developing into one... | mindracer wrote: | A manager of mine used to do 12-14 hour day Monday-Friday and | sometimes go to the office to work over the weekend as well. | Him and his girlfriend weren't getting on at the time and he'd | rather be working than in the house with her | markus_zhang wrote: | Yeah definitely. Sometimes you can't simply cut something | away so you have to try to stay away from it as long as | possible. I think the situation would improve if they just | separate. | bsd44 wrote: | This hit me really hard, because it's true. This is literally | me last 7 years. | [deleted] | laurent92 wrote: | Now that you are not at the top, I can say it: | | I have the theory that boys get into programming as a form of | escapism - because the external world is frustrating to them. | It is certainly my case, external world has all sorts of | illogic demands, things that exist but should not be | explicited, social rules, or various insults and condescension, | some of them because we're boys (my sister used to tell me boys | have 13% fewer neurons, that's why we're stupid). So we talk to | computers, although they can be extremely frustrating (I have | spent hours at 7 years old finding the missing brackets -- all | of this in 1990 when I didn't even speak English), but at least | computers are logic. And they answer to us. They don't make | snarky comments. At least, when it fails, _it's our fault_ . | And we can fix it. | | That would easily explain the gender gap in programming. It's | an escapism from the real world, while girls don't need it as | much because a lot of people are mindful of girls' problems | (notably teachers), or accept to listen to them. | | I'd like to see an experiment: Give children 90% male teachers | (the opposite of today's ratio) and see whether programming | then becomes more popular among girls than boys. | markus_zhang wrote: | >I have the theory that boys get into programming as a form | of escapism | | Absolutely my case, except that I'm a big boy approaching 40. | I don't work as a programmer, but the job exposes extensive | SQL and Python to me (SQL for querying db and Python for | automating and sticking together things). | | From my experience, programming is so far the only activity | that can satisfy my need for creating things and escaping | from this world. I mean I can't really cut off all my ties to | this world but it's nice to have a small world of my own to | enjoy myself, from time to time. | Izkata wrote: | > They don't make snarky comments. At least, when it fails, | _it's our fault_ . And we can fix it. | | Certainly not alone here, this is almost the same as part of | the Hacker's Manifesto: | | > I made a discovery today. I found a computer. Wait a | second, this is | | > cool. It does what I want it to. If it makes a mistake, | it's because I | | > screwed it up. Not because it doesn't like me... | | > Or feels threatened by me... | | > Or thinks I'm a smart ass... | | > Or doesn't like teaching and shouldn't be here... | | http://phrack.org/issues/7/3.html | | ...this part of which also rang true to me throughout school. | Jabbles wrote: | Why do you think that this is due to your gender, rather than | any other aspect? | laurent92 wrote: | Workaholism and programming are two symptoms much more | widespread among men than women. It is not necessarily | gender, but it is heavily correlated with it. As said, the | experiment I've described could "test" whether it is | gendered or not. | | For example, it could be Asperger. I haven't been | personally diagnosed, though. But even Asperger is more | often diagnosed in boys than girls. | | Other example, it could be behavior. Most beaten kids are | boys. Either it is because of gender bias in the parent, | either in it because of different behavior in the child; If | we assume the former, it means parents are more violent | towards the boy, if we assume the latter, it means the | boys' attitude provokes the parent more. Either way, the | real world is less comfortable for those, in average. | | There could be many profiles, only one of them "retires" in | a virtual world, and some girls do fit the same profile. | However, there is still a correlation. | | As for "why did I assume it was because of my gender", it | is because of "Boys have 13% fewer neurons" is oriented | towards gender, not profile, like many other events in | life. | wruza wrote: | I went on vacation from mid-December and returned to work a few | days ago (no lockdown here, office worker). I spent the entire | "vacation" in pain, weakness, and/or headaches, but now they | are gone (as is the money spent on treatment). I need to check | if this has anything to do with my shitty home chair and couch | or just being in the office. It would be very nice if the | problem was in the furniture. | | Upd: no, it's not _that_ virus (tested). And I had the same | problem in March when everyone went to "holidays" for a month. | Hell, as I write this I get more and more of it... Thank you, | thread. | hello_12345 wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_building_syndrome | hnxs wrote: | For some, that something else is themselves. | | I disagree with this submission title. Workaholism isn't a | cause of mental health problems, it's a symptom. | convolvatron wrote: | absolutely. I used to use alcohol and other drugs to | escape...whatever that is, I haven't figured it out. now that | I'm dry - I use physical labor. just as at one point in my | life I used programming. | | at the studio where I work nearly everyone is 'in recovery' | and everyone is quite open that the work is filling that | hole. | tsjq wrote: | Very. Well. Said. | exclusiv wrote: | I think it's different for entrepreneur workaholics. Your | startup is your baby. It's fun. It's challenging. It's | rewarding. | | And when you're young I think it's great to dedicate to work. | You accelerate your learning. You make more money. You meet | smart people. I don't know anyone very knowledgeable and | skilled for their age that did a work/life balance route. | | If you are a workaholic but _also_ a learnaholic, then I don 't | buy that as this toxic thing that can drive mental and physical | health issues. Ok, maybe sleep issues. | | I have a few businesses and I'd rather work on them than spend | time on social media like my non-workaholic friends. | | It's ok for people to say "you work too much", but I don't tell | my friends "you spend too much time on Facebook". Maybe I | should though? | | I do agree that it can be a big problem though. Many dedicate | themselves to their work because they are escaping something or | avoiding other important obligations. | | If that doesn't apply, then go get it! | | Life is a hell of a lot more enjoyable when you don't have to | worry about finances. | | My parents told me "you care too much about money". No I care | infinitely about NOT worrying about money. There's a | difference. | | You can care about money a lot, be focused on financial freedom | and not be a Scrooge and accumulating for no reason. | scyzoryk_xyz wrote: | You do know that social media is not the only thing one can | do outside of work, right? | | Like, there are ways of spending time living that don't | revolve around trying to make "gains"; social, financial or | any other kind. | | Maybe this is something that your parents mean - they're | expressing a worry over whether you're getting value out of | life, as you're hustling through all those businesses you | seem to be running? | | I notice entrepreneurs using the baby analogy a lot. It's an | interesting distortion of reality... | markus_zhang wrote: | That's out of my definition of workoholics though. So I could | be biased as I'm using my own definition. IMO if you really | enjoy your wor then you are not a workoholic. | exclusiv wrote: | I'd agree with you on that too. The article says 7 more | hours a week is a workaholic though and based on my | experience with friends and family - they too make no | distinction on whether you enjoy it or not. Even if you | tell them, they don't have that experience to understand. | | Kind of funny though. Nobody tells an athlete they "train | too much". Or a researcher that they "research too much". | detaro wrote: | > _Nobody tells an athlete they "train too much"_ | | Given that the side-effects of that are even worse than | other over-work, fairly sure that happens. | | > _Or a researcher that they "research too much"_ | | Of course they get told that they work too much, or don't | let go of work enough. Common stereotype actually. | bradstewart wrote: | The important distinction, for me, is the self-awareness to | truly chose to work more and understand what you're giving up | in the process. | | I spent a long time being sucked into overworking primarily | because I wanted to avoid some aspect of my life without | realizing it. I compromised relationships, stopped hobbies | that made me relaxed and happy--again without realizing it. | | It's scary how life can just pass by while you're in a state | like that. | | But as long as you're aware of what you're doing, why you're | doing it, and the "life debt" you're taking on--rock and | roll. Pouring yourself into creating something really is an | incredible thing. | hanniabu wrote: | I'm one and personally I have a lot of pride in my work, no | matter what I'm doing, so it takes me longer to do things than | someone else that just scraps things together. This leads to me | spending way more time on work. | tenebrisalietum wrote: | Overfocus on details or over-perfection could be a symptom of | anxiety. | hanniabu wrote: | Pretty sure anxiety is a symptom of the perfectionism, not | the cause | jolmg wrote: | I think it could go either way. That makes it viable for | a vicious cycle. | eloff wrote: | I think one needs to distinguish between being a workaholic for | some corporation and doing it because you're starting a company | or working for yourself. | | The former is obviously going to be painful and the latter might | not even feel that much like work. | | Maybe I'm just justifying because I'm definitely a workaholic, | and I'm in the second scenario and it feels totally sustainable. | The first scenario I also did, and it was hell, I wouldn't do it | again. It was a necessary evil to get the financial security to | start my business (self angel funding - no permission required, | no strings attached.) | Enginerrrd wrote: | I agree with all of this, though it's possible I'm also just | justifying it to myself. I will say though that 8 hours working | for someone else felt like a grind... but I can easily do 10-12 | if I give myself an interesting project to work on. It feels | really meaningful to me... | ivan_ah wrote: | Yeah working for yourself is a big trap to watch out for. I | have fallen for it numerous times. | | The problem is when you're working for yourself (or a worthy | non-commercial cause) work feels more fun and worthwhile, but | the health damage is kind of the same (long hours, lack of | exercises, sub-optimal nutrition). Despite it "feeling good," | working in this over-capacity regime ends up really inefficient | (since you're tired and not seeing the big picture). | | One thing that I find helps is to get other people involved | (e.g. collaborators, reviewers, users, etc) then allow yourself | to take breaks, while still knowing work on the project is | continuing by others. | eloff wrote: | I take care to eat well and exercise 4-5 times a week. I | think that's critical. | | I also don't do any hobbies and only see friends a few times | a year - all my free time goes to my wife, which is how I | manage 60 hour weeks while being married. | long_warmup wrote: | I was in the second scenario. It definitely is workaholism, and | from my own experience the price check your body, mind and | family gives in the end is not worth the financial gain... | [deleted] | CalRobert wrote: | How much of workaholism is fear-driven? Since I got my house paid | off it's been remarkably easy not to stress about trying to look | busier than my peers. | legerdemain wrote: | I used to work at a place where "going above and beyond" was | celebrated. | | Our products were deployed on premises. The support model was | that the on-site team would exhaust their ability to troubleshoot | and then send you a P0 email or Slack message, and then it was | you against the machine, at any and all hours, until the problem | was solved. | | On Mondays before lunch we'd all pile into the open space to clap | as the product lead delivered kudos like, "Oh, and thanks to Will | for helping Deployment Foo fix their database corruption on | Mother's Day!" | | But now I'm not there anymore and their stock is making me money. | Grind, little drones, grind, grind! | 5tefan wrote: | I can witness workaholism around me. In most cases an absolute | waste of life time and that makes it even worse to me. Oftentimes | low impact and low priority work. It doesn't makes sense to me. | Often tried to reach out to my colleagues but they can't let go. | Even time spent with doing nothing at all seems time spent | better. | | I decide in the morning when to quit work in the afternoon. I am | forced to manage my workload properly. And I adhere to the KISS | principle at all times. I dislike mental overhead. Not everything | works well but it is what it is and next day brings other | opportunities. | whalesalad wrote: | I would posit that deeper psychological issues are what lead | someone to workaholism (as a maladaptive coping mechanism). I | believe it is a symptom of a larger issue which is what | ultimately leads to the problems with mental and physical health. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | Sometimes lack of social contact or purpose in life, abuse, | loneliness and depression can lead to workaholism, sometimes | it's having drunk the cool-aid and chasing the carrot on the | stick, or even more common, it's simply lacking better | employment options in your area leading you to cave in to soft | pressure from your employer which then leads to burn- | out/depression. | exclusiv wrote: | That makes more sense to me than the other way around. | | As a workaholic, and learnaholic, I did it as a path to | financial freedom and to accelerate my learning at at time I | knew I had the bandwidth and will. It made me a better | entrepreneur and business owner later, which is what I really | wanted to do. | | But as I've gotten older and have a family now I've been | removing obligations for my businesses. And working more normal | schedules. Taking random times off to help. Being better at | triaging what's really needed from my time. | | Yet, I wouldn't have change a thing with my path. It's hard to | get to financial freedom and the goal of owning your own | businesses with 40 hrs a week. | | I don't think working more than the normal is necessarily a bad | thing. Some people actually do enjoy their jobs. Or their team. | Or they enjoy learning. | | I know it's hard for some people to understand why some people | are workaholics. I certainly have friends that don't like their | jobs that have said I work too much. If you hate your 40 hour | job, it's hard to imagine doing any more than that. | | In the right environment, the 7+ hours per week extra to be | considered a workaholic isn't much different from reading books | or practicing your craft in your free time. | Dudeman112 wrote: | Except most people don't already spend 40h per week reading | books or practicing their crafts. | | If they spent 47h per week doing it, people would call it | unhealthy too. (or dedicated, if they have no sense of | healthy temperance at all) | whalesalad wrote: | One man's crippling workaholism is another man's dream life. | To one it could be an escape or avoidance of their true self | and to another it could be the most rewarding work of all. | That is to say, I do not think immersing yourself in your | work and working crazy long hours is inherently a bad thing. | You can certainly thrive on that energy with the right | balance. | ntsplnkv2 wrote: | It's always a chicken vs the egg scenario. | | While the initial steps into workaholism may be from other | issues, eventually it can become the cause of many others. | astura wrote: | Yeah, I know someone whose workaholism is caused by abuse | experienced during childhood. It's so obvious to me. | whalesalad wrote: | It is unfortunately extremely common. | d33lio wrote: | I'd regret not trying with every bit of my intellect and ability | more than burning out in the process of trying. Up until my mid | twenties I realized I'd been "protecting myself" and in effect | making myself miserable because I kept telling myself that my | goals would just lead to burn out and wouldn't be worth it. | throw_away34892 wrote: | Anyone whos at a FAANG (or similarly paying company) willing to | share some insights into what the work culture is? I'd guess that | its mostly dependent upon the team, manager, and project. But as | my career progresses and I realize I dont want to be doing this | shit well into my 50's or hell..60's I figure I can bite the | bullet early at a FAANG and stack so much money by the time im 40 | I can tell anyone and their mother to go fuck themselves. With | the amount they're paying the EV seems way better than trying at | a few startups. | allenu wrote: | I would say from my experience, having worked at a FAANG-like | big software company for a long time, it's very easy to work | longer hours because of the culture. You see people responding | to emails after hours and during weekends, you see people going | the extra mile to meet a deadline, the promotion process is | regularly pushed and you're always trying to do more to move | onto the next stage, etc. | | It's all part of the corporate culture, so you don't even think | of it as "workaholism", it's just normal. You live in a bubble | and many of your friends work at the same company, so you can't | even see a different perspective. | | That said, it can be very lucrative over several years since | they pay so well. I've since left the company, but have a good | nest egg from my work there. | bondarchuk wrote: | Typical case of inverting cause and effect. | sn41 wrote: | Or an incidence of correlation and not causation. Not that | correlation does not mater. | sli wrote: | My father worked his whole life and only retired when he started | having seizures. It got him and my mother their current homer, | but it sacrificed his physical health and basically any | relationship he may have had with his family, because he was | either working (usually 12 hour days) or sleeping. | | I really hope it was worth it for him, because I could never do | that to myself. Giving up that much of yourself and your life for | people you'll never meet and don't care a single bit about you | seems like something meant for fools. | tinyhouse wrote: | It's simple: Work to live. Don't live to work. Yeah, I'm talking | to you Americans*. | | * Mostly joking. Workaholism exists everywhere. It's a reference | to Emily in Paris. | [deleted] | throwaway91627 wrote: | Learned this the hard way. Spent the last 7 years grinding text | books resulting in a place on a Masters in CS and a ~$200k income | while working remotely from the UK (without a degree, at 26). | Whole purpose was to earn as much as I could and it took over my | life. Now I'm on antidepressants and overweight. Recently quit my | uni course and job, and settled for a role around $65k with a New | Years resolution to never be a workaholic again. Feeling better | already :) | qmmmur wrote: | What did you work in if you don't mind me asking? | throwaway91627 wrote: | Was a software developer but realised it's much easier to be | competitive, if you're a good but not great dev, to get | higher paying SDET roles. | supernihil wrote: | this is really interesting!!! i am considering a drop exactly | like that except from 100k to 62k in order to clear up the | anxiety induced helltrain i'm currently on, asked about it | here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25765287 | | sounds like you made the right choice, i am getting more and | more convinced about sacrificing the career to get time for | treating myself and the family better | throwaway91627 wrote: | I think it's really worth considering, but don't do it off of | my post :) Chat to your family about it but also consider | speaking to your doctor about anti anxiety | counselling/medication. Helped me get through a lot of it. | supernihil wrote: | dont worry, not doing these decisions lightheaded :-) just | wanted to express that i admire the thought of skipping the | "money making mission" i am on to take care of the real | things i care about being my family and my head. I hope you | all get a great 2021! | shimonabi wrote: | Ezra Klein had an interesting podcast recently with Robert | Sapolsky on how constant stress damages your health: | | https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-ezra-klein-show/episode/ro... | honkycat wrote: | Most of the time I've seen it, it is avoidance of the rest of | their life. "Change diapers? Oh, sorry honey, I uhh... gotta do | this thing at work. Darn it!" | | One phenomenon I've always noticed about workaholics is that they | THINK they are being more productive, but often times they are | just spending more time spinning their wheels. Also the effect it | has on their mood/interpersonal skills, and the pressure it puts | on the rest of the team cancels it out. Seriously, one rude | comment in the morning can throw a developer off for the rest of | the day, it's not worth it. | | "Man what's up with frank today?" | | "Oh he was pulling an all-nighter doing a non-urgent task." | | "Did anybody ask him to?" | | "No. In fact we asked him to stop." | | I consider independent study, side-projects, reading a good book, | smoking some dope, cooking a good meal with my partner, getting | enough sleep, relaxing, and exercising(!!!!) part of my job. I | don't care what kind of mutant you THINK you are, you will | perform better if you go to bed and get a full nights rest and | clean your brain out. It is just science. | | Finally, while it is true that "work more = better review at | work", it's just... not worth it. If your job is your whole life | and you are not making +200k: GET A LIFE. You have better things | to do with your time than make some other man money. Work is a | "safe place." Time goes in, money comes out. But that doesn't | mean it is a healthy way to spend all of your time. | thebean11 wrote: | > If your job is your whole life and you are not making +200k: | GET A LIFE | | Tons of people on this forum are making that much, would not | recommend workaholism for them either | lqet wrote: | > "Man what's up with frank today?" | | > "Oh he was pulling an all-nighter doing a non-urgent task." | | > "Did anybody ask him to?" | | > "No. In fact we asked him to stop." | | When I am doing this, it is usually because I have the strong | feeling that I am in complete control of the problem _right | now_ , hours after midnight. Two fears then kick it: will I | make it to this point of control a second time in the near | future (3-6 months)? Will I even _remember_ the extremely | abstract concepts a few days from now? To me, the answer | (confirmed by experience) is often: most likely not, better | finish it now. | r00fus wrote: | After you create your masterpiece of code, do you know enough | to document and understand it later (so you can pass it on to | others)? | | Having been in the zone, I completely sympathize with the | view that productivity isn't constant; that the cost to your | health is worth the leap... | | Have you ever had that feeling and then realized in the | morning/next day that your feeling was illusory and you | actually took the harder path? | bradstewart wrote: | I know the feeling. In college (and for a year or so right | after), I had the same answer. | | A few years later, I've finally realized that any code I | write at 2am almost always needs to be fixed--often | substantially--soon after. I miss things. I write stupid | bugs. I don't see the requirements clearly. | | I've found writing things down (sometimes a few words, | sometimes a few pages), sleeping on it, and reviewing those | notes first thing in the morning--before email, before | showering, before anything--to be a much a better strategy. | | YMMV, of course. | fairity wrote: | > One phenomenon I've always noticed about workaholics is that | they THINK they are being more productive, but often times they | are just spending more time spinning their wheels. | | >The effect it has on their mood/interpersonal skills, and the | pressure it puts on the rest of the team cancels it out. | | > You will perform better if you go to bed and get a full | nights rest and clean your brain out | | All of these claims are situational and often untrue. It's | entirely possible for workaholics to be more productive, inter- | personally smooth, and a team player. | | The most convincing reason to not be a workaholic is not that | it's a counter-productive effort. It's that workaholism will | lead to decreased long-term fulfillment (for most people). | dheera wrote: | Maybe they were doing it to get promoted? Sad reality is often | promotions go to the workaholics instead of the people who take | care of themselves. | justathrowa wrote: | >But that doesn't mean it is a healthy way to spend all of your | time. | | Dunno about that. | | Just a personal anecdote, but this year my boss specifically | told me to work less, slashing my salary down by $10,000 a year | to emphasize the point. Prior to this, 200 to 240 hours a month | was pretty typical and has been for the last 8 years. (I doubt | it's out of real concern for my health, my workload hasn't been | reduced). | | What I've found was that in the times of idleness though I've | thought more and more about suicide. The Christmas holidays | were some of the first I've had to have an entire week to | myself and I spent most of it was spent testing methods for | speed, logistics, and discomfort, as well as scouting suitable | locations; somewhere that would force an EMS / police arrival | on site by 10 minutes or so. Updated my will and managed to | work out the logistics of transferring all my assets to to | remaining family quickly when I finally make the decision to | kill myself. | | Never in my life has it gotten this far before; never really | had time to seriously think about until now. I'd imagine that | most people though would probably be more fine with a miserably | but living workaholic, then a corpse dead of suicide. | | As such, could you really say that is working long hours such | is really unhealthy? Or such a terrible thing? | jolmg wrote: | If your current work is no longer serving your needs, maybe | it's time to find another. Don't let anybody tell you how to | live your life. Do what works best. | | > 200 to 240 hours a month was pretty typical | | It also seems very normal. I do 210 a month at least (without | overtime). That's not counting lunch hour during which I'm | mostly still at my desk, and which would add another 20 hours | a month. | | > (I doubt it's out of real concern for my health, my | workload hasn't been reduced). | | I don't know your work or your boss, but it could be they | expect you to manage yourself and are waiting to see how the | work piles up before deciding what to do about it. If they | complain it's not getting done, just quote them. Less time = | less work gets done. | | Also see my other comment: | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25767160 | abcdjdjd wrote: | >As such, could you really say that is working long hours | such is really unhealthy? Or such a terrible thing? | | Yes, yes it is. It sounds like you are simply using work as a | distraction from your problems instead of addressing them. | | Our society is becoming more and more disconnected as | everyone is working way too much. We should be working less, | not more. | | Less work means people can spend more time doing things they | enjoy, socializing, doing things they need to do outside | work, and having more time to relax and probably sleep. | jolmg wrote: | > using work as a distraction from your problems instead of | addressing them | | Some problems can't be addressed, but one can learn to live | happily in spite of them. I think finding a distraction is | a fine way of doing that. Relative to other options, work | seems like a very healthy distraction if it works. | thebean11 wrote: | I'm sure there's lots of unhealthy things that will make you | temporarily not feel suicidal..I feel great after 5 tequila | sodas but it's obviously not good for me. You should really | get help | wittyreference wrote: | I kind of feel obligated to pipe in as a physician: | | There are signs of people not being a high suicide risk, | despite depression and overt claims of suicidality. This post | is the absolute opposite of that - if you were with me in the | clinic right now, I'd consider you an incredibly high risk of | an actual suicide attempt. Please, please, please, please | reach out to a professional and friends for help. Please. | ulysses wrote: | Perhaps replace the time worked with time spent looking for | another job. Despite having faced suicidal depression a time | or two myself, I have no great advice to offer; but one of | the things I've turned to many times is a bit in the ASR FAQ. | 5.8) But seriously, should I kill myself? | Seriously, no. As posted to ASR by Ed Evans: | Ultimate recovery stalks us all, no need to succour it. Quit | or take a leave with or without pay (or permission), | stop seeing him or her, recognise that the cat or dog | does rule you, call in sick and spend the day in the | big blue room, it's only money and can be earned | again, all the pictures will be posted again, call the | local professionals if you really feel that way... | And if all else fails? Lawn mowing. If you're | willing to take the severe step of killing yourself, you | should be willing to take less severe steps such as | quitting your job or taking a leave without permission. | And really, there _is_ help out there. Maybe in here, | too. And more of us have been there than you may | realize. We're grateful now that we didn't do it. | (Most days.) In chess they have a saying, "You can't | win by resigning." Keep playing; you never know. | axxto wrote: | Please, consider seeing a professional as soon as possible. | Mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of: it doesn't brand | you as ANYTHING, any more than being diabetic or having an | allergy does. There is a very good chance that a doctor can | help you quickly and easily. | | And you might feel at times like you don't even want to be | helped, or that you don't deserve help, or that it's not | worth the bother, but those are all symptoms of your problem, | not consequences of it. Your judgement IS impaired. It _will_ | go away once you 're in treatment. You'll be amazed at the | change. | | Please, talk to a professional, be very honest with them | about how you're feeling and about the thoughts you are | having. I know it's tough to open up and it might seem | awkward, and I know it's easy to lose sight of it in these | times we live in, but I promise you, there _are_ many people | out there that _really_ want to help you, not just because it | 's their job, and they are more than able to do it. It _will_ | change your life. | | You will get over this and come out stronger on the other | side. You'll see. Best wishes, friend. | robocat wrote: | > please, consider seeing a professional as soon as | possible. | | Strongly agree. | | > Mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of: it doesn't | brand you as ANYTHING, any more than being diabetic or | having an allergy does | | Strongly disagree. In theory it shouldn't. However in | practice it often is incredibly shameful, and we all | sympathise with that. | | Even your own internal song about a diagnosis can have vast | negative consequences. | | Friends and family can treat you like a pariah: for example | many people will consciously choose not to let Reese near | their kids because of some diagnoses. | | Even worse the effects of being labelled (ignoring the | effects of a mental issue) can be subtle and hard to see | because they are socially hidden, or they are subconscious, | so that one is left questioning why things happened the way | they did. | | I agree, it can often be positive. But I have friends that | have been given labels, and who I've witnessed negative | outcomes for them, well beyond those caused by their | "illness". | | The idea is to get help even though it is scary... | especially for suicidal thoughts. Not seeking help is very | likely to be extremely harmful to many people. | | Edit: | | One can choose to hide a condition from friends or family, | but that has other consequences, such as making one more | distant or detached. | | Yes, _get help_ , but keep your eyes open and get good | advice on how to share everthing with your friends and | family, in the best manner you can find. | | More positively, vulnerability often makes you closer to | friends and with a small amount of luck helps you be a | better person e.g. less judgemental about others. | | All the best, there is a lot of love out there for most | everyone. | robocat wrote: | Working on how you would commit suicide is a very strong | signal you are in mortal danger, according to my friend a | nurse with experience. | | Your problem to solve is: 'what will make my life | worthwhile.' Make it your _job_ to solve that and spend time | and money(=stored time) to do so. The alternative job of how | to end your life is a poor goal, IMHO. | | You can pay someone to care about you (edit: and has the | skills to be useful): a councillor or a life coach or a nurse | or whoever... Choosing someone is a difficult problem, but it | is tractable; perhaps try multiple people in parallel (edit: | from different specialities) and pick whoever clicks the most | with you. | | Don't be scared to spend money: as a purely financial | decision anything that keeps you earning for many years to | come would be an insanely great investment (in fact, so good | that it is a startup idea in itself that if scaled could get | VC funding). | | In an ideal world you have someone close to you help you that | (a) would take the time to help, (b) can make the time to | help, and (c) has the ability to help. However it isn't as | common as it should be to have someone like that available. | If you are lonely then you likely believe you don't have that | person in your life already, so paying a stranger is far | simpler. | | Finally, if you must commit suicide, please do it so that it | plausibly looks like an accident. Suicide is devastating to | so many people around you, even very loose acquaintances and | strangers in your social graph... I have seen the deep | effects of suicides rip through my own friends and | acquaintances, and it is the caring and vulnerable that are | most deeply and often permanently hurt (sometimes they may be | on the far distant fringes of the social graph from the | suicide). I personally believe you can do whatever you want | with _your_ life, but harming others touches _their_ life. | | Edit: if you reply with a way to contact you, I myself would | share my time with you, because even just trying to help is | an interesting challenge for me. I don't have any training, | but I might possibly be more in tune with you than many who | do? | Tycho wrote: | Go to church. The people there will talk to you and welcome | you to join activities. During the service all you have to do | is stand up, sit down, and sing along. Listening is optional. | Even if you are not religious, you can treat it as some sort | of research into mass psychology or systems of civilization. | ornornor wrote: | I don't know you and I don't mean to tell you what to do. I | can't imagine what it feels like to be in your situation, | consider talking to someone to try and make things better for | yourself before doing something you can't undo. I hope it | gets better, and wish you all the best. | jason0597 wrote: | I've noticed in the replies below that you've said you don't | have meaningful relationships with anyone. I firmly believe | that this is a strong contributing factor to how you feel | right now. | | I've been through similar situations in my life as well, very | dark times that I have trouble believing I went through. | | Do you want to talk more? My email is in my profile. I'm | happy to talk with you! | vorpalhex wrote: | Do you have any kind of meaningful social connections outside | of work? Whether it's family, religion, non-religious social | orgs, hobbies or whatever, a strong set of social connections | tends to correlate with happiness. | | It might also be worth looking into adopting or rescuing a | pet, a senior dog tends to be low energy and they typically | have low adoption rates. They are often loyal, loving and | excellent companions. | | If you have a blank check for life, use it for some purpose. | justathrowa wrote: | >Do you have any kind of meaningful social connections | outside of work? | | No, but that's been the status quo so I was a child. | | Wouldn't having a social circle that cause more problems | though? Suicide's main issue is the distress it causes for | social connections. No circle, no problems. | tekkk wrote: | No, it's the isolation that is way more harmful. Sure you | can be alone even with social connections if they are | superficial, but we humans are hard-wired to seek | community and social connections to validate our | existence. Similar to working, I guess, but which is more | mentally healthier and productive. | | Yet building those social connections is definitely not | an easy task. Once you have been molded to a certain | shape to rewire your mental patterns and the emotional | rewarding system is very difficult. You have to be | persistent in building those friendships until you at | some point achieve a level of rapport that, hopefully, | allows you to be completely yourself around another | person. | | But no one can really give you the answers how to | approach solving the problem. My advice is to seek venues | of expressing yourself to find like-minded people who | think the same at a deep, instinctive level. I whole- | heartedly recommend performing arts, like improvisational | theatre, which forces to play like a child. There is | something there that I think is very rejuvenating when | you can just fool around and laugh. Also you can't really | think of anything else when you are performing. | | I'd say the most difficult part of the whole problem is | that you can't remove your emotions from solving your | problem and therefore you can't make the most rational | choices as you subconsciously avoid failure. But I | encourage you to keep trying. Seeking professional help | would also be advisable. | chickenfries wrote: | The main problem with suicide is that it forecloses the | possibility that your life will get better. And it can. | The fact that you care about leaving your connections in | distress tells me you care for people. This is normal and | good and makes you human. We need human connection to | live. Even now, you take others feelings into account. | You seem like a good person, and the world would be worse | without you. | TempNoConflict wrote: | When I was child I moved around schools a lot, eventually | I stopped trying to make friends. As life went on I | distanced myself from family and what few friends I had. | | I ended up horribly depressed for years, never really | understanding why. I was young enough when I started down | this path that I wasn't really conscious of the decisions | I was making and its impact on my emotional wellbeing, it | was just an internalized reaction to losing my friends | over and over. | | When I stopped trying to make friends I let my ability to | form meaningful connections rot. Being around people made | me sad because I wouldn't let anyone know me and that | made me feel misunderstood, like I didn't belong. And | being alone all the time just would sap all colour from | life. | | I made a conscious effort to be more forthcoming and open | with people last year and its made a world of difference | for me. I'm still pretty miserable, somedays can be | pretty rough, but life is more than just sadness and | emptiness now. | | I only realized this when I started smoking pot | constantly outside of work. It helped me calm down and | see things for what they really were. I wouldn't outright | recommend becoming a pothead like me, especially if you | have mental issues, since it can be dangerous but I'd | strongly recommend talking to a professional. | | I was in such an awful state of mind that I couldn't | think rationally even though I was convinced I was. | You're more than your emotions, you're more than your | thoughts, that's just a state of being. If you want to | change those aspects of your life, as an Adult, it falls | on you to seek treatment. Please seek treatment if you | feel you need it. There are people who want to help. | axxxo93 wrote: | No, my friend. Suicide's main issue is that you will be | dead. I urge you to talk to a professional. You don't | have to feel this way. | justathrowa wrote: | Is it? | | The dead cannot feel joy, love, pain, or sadness. They | cannot perceive anything, nor can the be aware of | anything; one second in time is exactly the same as a | billion years to the dead. And you cannot do anything to | the dead that would change that. | | Barring the possibility of an afterlife, if nothing can | affect the dead, and the dead are unaware of everything, | what could possibly be the dead's problem? | | The living on the other hand? They would be the one that | would perceive the dead's absence, and mourn it. They are | the ones that have to deal with the uncertainty of what | death is. Or the questions of why someone would prefer | death. | | But there in lies the key point; someone has to perceive | the death of a peer to mourn it. Let's say for a moment | that there is only one person in the universe and he | dies. Who mourns for him? Like wise, if someone exists, | and no one else is aware, who mourns for him after he | dies? In either case, he cannot mourn for himself. | | So really... is being dead a problem for the dead? Or is | it more the concern of those still alive? | jolmg wrote: | > So really... is being dead a problem for the dead? Or | is it more the concern of those still alive? | | I wouldn't weigh them. It could go either way. | | The problem for the dead is the loss of opportunity. The | waste. If I have some amount of cash in my wallet, what | I'm able to do with it will depend on the market that's | available to me. Maybe I won't be able to afford the same | things others do in other places, but I should be able to | take _some_ advantage of it. Dying is dropping that cash | down the gutter. It 's utterly wasteful. | | Doing the same with your time alive is even more so | because you can't get it back. | | Even the most minimal use of your 5 senses is a good use. | Even dreaming while sleep is a good use. Even just | thinking is a good use. The opportunity to use that time | for anything at all is lost when you die. | tasuki wrote: | Fully agree with everything you wrote here. It isn't a | problem to be not-living. I was not-living long before I | was born, and it was never a problem. | | I understand you feel your life isn't worth living. It is | very much possible (though not easy) to change that. As | the others have said, please talk to a professional. I | don't know you, but you seem like a bright, thoughtful | person. Humanity needs you. | honkycat wrote: | Hey: I'm sorry you are suffering so much you are thinking | about taking your own life. I know your pain is real because | I have felt it myself before. | | I do not want you to commit suicide, please stay with us. | | Please call the suicide prevention hotline and get help. Just | try to talk to someone on this phone line at least once. It | helped me: https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ | esja wrote: | Friend, please call the suicide prevention hotline in your | country. It will only take a few minutes. | | If you do this now, and if you decide to trust in yourself | and the many people who will help you from that moment | onward, one day you can wake from this bad dream. You will | have no more suicidal thoughts, and you will begin to love | and appreciate yourself and your unique life, just as you | deserve to. | | Please just commit to making contact and giving it a try. | You've spent lots of time researching the alternatives - | please just spend a few minutes and take one step along this | path. | mistersquid wrote: | Because you've taken concrete steps to prepare for suicide, | please take a few minutes to discuss this with a doctor or a | mental health professional. | | One resource is the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. | https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org | domano wrote: | Change your employer, take a break if financially possible. | Life can be better, please talk to someone. Your loved ones | and a professional. | | Life can be fun and working more does not solve problems! | chickenfries wrote: | I don't know what has brought you to this point in life, but | I'm sorry that it has you considering suicide. | | For me, being a workaholic left me feeling disconnected and | isolated from the world. The antidepressants didn't help, | they just numbed me to my own emotional pain enough that I | could keep functioning. | | The holidays are a depressing time for a lot of people, and | to a limited extent, I can see the harm reduction in working | through them. But for me, finding a reason to live involved | spending time outside of work to make new friends, revive old | friendships, and improve my family life. I truly believe that | work is no replacement for friends and family, the only | things that I have found worth living for. | | I hope things start looking up for you, friend. | aerosmile wrote: | I found it interesting that you put a price tag on it. Also, | $200k is about $150k more than most people make, but if you | look at just the workaholic population and isolate for | industries such as finance and law, many people in that group | are going to be within the shooting range of that threshold. | And there you have it - even within your own framework, it | becomes understandable why we have so many workaholics. | | My point is - the moment you put a price tag on your work-life | balance, it becomes very difficult to escape the rat race. You | really have to be quite militant about it or otherwise it won't | work. | mrkstu wrote: | The difference is if you can get enough distance between your | expenses and your income, you can completely _escape_ the rat | race in a significantly earlier timeframe. | | For many outside of the ultra high cost of living zones, 200k | is about that cut off level where you can reach escape | velocity. | aerosmile wrote: | I should have clarified that I am not passing judgment on | being a workaholic or not. I spent the majority of my | working career as a workaholic, although I did try to | escape it on a few occasions. The first and only time it | worked was when I made it a non-negotiable part of my work | to carve out certain lifestyle demands. At the time, it | seemed quite likely that this could trigger some negative | consequences, and as someone who worked hard on building a | career, it wasn't an easy decision to consciously take a | few steps back. I only pulled through because of the | conviction that it had to happen. | | In an alternate universe, I would have stayed a workaholic | and would likely retire earlier than I will now. Both are | good options IMO. The choices I made have to do with how I | want to spend my free time - my favorite hobby requires top | physical fitness, and I won't be able to pursue it semi- | competitively for many more years. | robbyking wrote: | I'm lucky that before Covid I was able to walk to work so I was | never bound by traffic or transportation schedules, but I | definitely have friends and coworkers who "miss their bus" so | they'll get home after their kids are down. | | (For those of you without kids, a lot of pre-schoolers go to | bed at 7.) | phanindra_veera wrote: | I wish I knew this 3 years ago. Anyway things are good now. | mancerayder wrote: | I've been in situations where I was under a lot of stress and had | trouble concentrating and being effective at work. Especially | learning. | | I'm very jealous of those who are not less, but more performant | under those conditions. | aiava wrote: | Who knew? | huijzer wrote: | The title is very misleading because it states a causation | whereas the article talks about "links" and "associations". This | is a serious error since correlation is not causation. | ystad wrote: | Difficult to disagree, especially when you are working on a job | that is not satisying intellectually and emotionally. All the | money in the world doesn't help | billwear wrote: | okay, can see that; what if your job is enjoyable like play, and | you get lost doing it, and thus don't have mental and physical | effects? | philmcp wrote: | In years to come we will look down on the 5 day working week in | the same way we currently do with 15hr factory shifts during the | industrial revolution. | | It absolutely blows my mind that 99% of office roles are still 5 | days / week, Monday to Friday - why is there basically no | variation on this model? I'd be more than happy to work a job for | 80% salary for 4 days per week... | | So much so, I'm about to launch a website listing remote software | jobs with a 4 day work week: | | https://www.28hrworkweek.com/ | lrossi wrote: | Interesting. How long until you launch? | philmcp wrote: | Hopefully next week, will email everyone on the list and post | it on HN when it's live | jostmey wrote: | I get that Workaholism is a form of escapism for many people, but | that's not necessarily the case for everyone. I personally become | depressed if I cannot work on something important and potentially | valuable, feeling that the days pass without meaning. | | I spend lots of time with my kid because I see that as important. | I set aside time to get enough sleep so that I can remain | productive. But I hate weekends (unless at the park with my kid), | I hate shopping, and I hate vacations. I think I avoid burnout | because I don't waste time on meaningless tasks. Life is too | short, and I want to accomplish a lot | tolbish wrote: | Wouldn't the need to feel productive in order to avoid | meaninglessness/depression be considered escapism? | fairity wrote: | Sure, OC's situation could be categorized as escapism, | technically, but it doesn't sound like the unhealthy kind. | Escapism is only unhealthy if you're participating in the | activity at the detriment of your long term fulfillment. | | Similarly, addiction is generally bad, but if your addiction | isn't detrimental to your long-term health, there's no | problem. | bob1029 wrote: | This is more-or-less my position. | | I work at a very small company, and I have a lot of leverage | relative to other opportunities. I can directly feel how my | work converts into more business value & opportunity. This is | not just about me though. It's also about being able to grow | the company and provide amazing opportunities for _other_ | developers, project managers, executives, et. al. I view my | company and team members almost as a big family. We offer all | sorts of employee incentive packages, so my success also means | that others on the team are reaping value. | | For me, this is enough. I can go through life with the purpose | of holding together a technology company & vision. Especially, | when I view it through the lens of all the opportunity and | support I can provide for other humans. I feel I can do a lot | more good in this world through technology & business than if I | were to bunker down and start my own family and pour all my | energy into that bucket. | | There is certainly a happy balance that a lot of people manage | across both realms, but I have doubled-down a bunch of times on | the technology paths, so I am fairly locked-in at this phase. I | am truly happy with the choices I have made. Many times, the | hardest part of this is ignoring some of the more toxic | perspectives regarding your choices & contributions. I have to | remind myself that a lot of people are really not happy with | their jobs and just want to get in and out without too much | drama. | dheera wrote: | To me workaholism is giving too much time to your main job. | | On the other hand I'd I have a LOT of side projects that I | consider to have meaning. Most of my vacations are projects, | e.g. | | https://petapixel.com/2019/07/13/shooting-high-res-thermal-p... | | https://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-drastic-changes-in-ur... | | Taking vacations like that makes me want to take vacations. I | guess to rephrase what I want to say, I think looking for | meaning is a fine thing to do, just don't put it all into your | day job, look for meaning in other parts of your life too. | duggable wrote: | Man, this is me as well. I DREAD the weekends cause I don't | know what to do with myself. I sit around feeling anxious and | half-depressed, and my mind runs in circles. I'm typically | excited for Monday so I can get back to work and distract | myself from whatever is going on inside my head. | dfilppi wrote: | Are we expected to believe that there are workaholics in France? | Now 'strikaholics' I can believe. | poxwole wrote: | In other news, water is wet. | NalNezumi wrote: | >"Workaholics are people who usually work seven and more hours | more than others per week." | | >"Workaholism is also known as a behavioural disorder, which | means the excessive involvement of the individual in work when an | employer doesn't require or expect it." | | >"The results show that high job demands at work are strongly | associated with work addiction risk but the job control level | does not play the same role." | | In a first glance, the definition of Workaholism seems like | something very culture/country dependent. In places such as Japan | with pressure to stay longer than your boss, working longer to | "show you're working hard", a lot of people might be categorized | as workaholic without actually being one. | | What the model seems to _not_ include is, and I think contributes | way more to work related mental health issue is _emotional_ | investment in work. Too much emotional investment seems to lead | to unreasonable stress when things are not going accordingly, | while not helping much when things are going well. (Which is | natural ofc, emotionally we remember negative events /failure | more. It being tied to our self-worth or something deeply | emotional, is problematic though.) | | I left my previous company because of this reason; the project | wasn't going anywhere, horribly mismanaged including unrealistic | goal settings. But I've had this condition before on other jobs, | but only on this one did I get so emotionally invested that I | spent ridiculous over-time until burnout trying to make things | (out of my control) work. | | In retrospective, what made it all worse was that I liked my | coworker a lot at my previous work, and seeing them work hard on | other project while my project were going nowhere, made me more | invested. The company-culture that made reaching out to others | for feedback/brain storm/help hard, was also strong contributing | factor. | vasco wrote: | To think that you can somehow not be emotionally invested in | the thing you spend 20% of your time on is a bit naive. Maybe | you're a level 9000 stoic, but for the rest of us, I think it's | fine and normal to be emotionally invested in our work, it | allows for genuine motivation, team spirit and yes | disappointments, but what the hell are you living for? | | You rather be a robot for 8 hours every day? I'd rather be sad | every once in a while but be myself at work and care about it | and the people in there with me. | rimiform wrote: | You're absolutely bang-on with the cultural dependence thing. | Here, in Europe (although this seems to be changing), it's | normal to work fewer hours than would be customary in North | America. So, your threshold for 'workaholism' would be lower. | | I'm not sure if this is a Western thing or whatever it might | be, but for some reason a lot of social science researchers | neglect to mention that their research is done on a specific | cultural group. You could say "... in the US" for this title, | but I rarely see this done. | Abishek_Muthian wrote: | I nearly ended up becoming a quadriplegic[1] after ignoring my | health issues(I literally didn't know I had a fracture in my | neck) while running a startup for ~5 years as a single founder. I | had to close my startup because of it. | | So I would certainly say it was not worth it, now even my compute | time is limited, I had to even change my programming language of | choice(Java to Go) to reduce the time before computer before my | biological alarm(pain) goes off. | | Please do what ever it takes to maintain a healthy work-life | balance. Especially the single founders out there, the bus factor | is more real than the perceived light at the end of the tunnel. | | Also workaholics, get a damn big heath insurance coverage, | largest coverage you can afford. | | [1]https://abishekmuthian.com/i-was-told-i-would-become- | quadrip... | may4m wrote: | I classify workaholics into three categories, first is too much | pride, second is "my colleagues are my friends" and there isn't | much to do at home anyways, third is someone really needs the job | and money | dfee wrote: | Because none of the comments (yet) reflect the content of the | article, here is a useful excerpt that should help refocus us: | | > The results show that high job demands at work are strongly | associated with work addiction risk but the job control level | does not play the same role. The prevalence of work addiction | risk is higher for active and high-strain workers than for | passive and low-strain workers. These two groups of workers | appeared to be more vulnerable and therefore can suffer more from | the negative outcomes of work addiction risk, in terms of | depression, sleep disorder, stress and other health issues. | | For a definition of the four types of working situations, they're | in the article and marked with battery icons. | TrackerFF wrote: | One thing I've seen, time and time again, is that workaholics tie | their identity to their employment. Everything revolves around | work, and they pretty much become their work. Work is the place | where they live. Co-workers, clients, associates, and what not | are the majority of people they interact with. Work is what | occupies their mind. | | When they then lose that - either through retirement, | unemployment, or what not, it turns ugly. Especially if they're | also the sole provider (in their household.). | | My only tips are to create rules for yourself, and try to follow | them - as well as finding one or more hobbies. The more | passionate you become with some hobbies, the less you only think | about work. | zaczekadam wrote: | For me it was the combination of two factors: - my girlfriend | leaving me - starting a company with my friends | | This led to a massive addition to work. While I don't regret | starting a company at all, my sleep quality definitely suffered. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-01-13 23:01 UTC)