[HN Gopher] Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) - High-Intensity Peloton ...
___________________________________________________________________
Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) - High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing
Hey HN! I'm Andy, founder of Aviron (https://avironactive.com/). We
make a high-intensity version of Peloton for rowing, with
competitive games, live races and strength programs. Our content
puts a focus on HIIT (high intensity interval training) due to its
physical and cognitive benefits. I feel like sometimes this pisses
the hardcore rowers off but I'm not a rower, I'm a tech guy. I also
think fitness is important and have been working out all of my
adult life. Before Aviron, I worked full time and long hours so I
did a lot of my thinking during late night gym sessions. Like many
people I avoided the rower because not only did I not enjoy cardio
but damn that machine was hard and boring. There was a moment at
some point in 2016 when I realized I could do something with this.
The connected fitness market in the US at that time was small but
growing rapidly. Aviron is a rowing machine because it's the most
efficient and effective workout you can have in a short amount of
time on one machine. The rowing motion is low impact, engages 85%
of muscles, is very difficult and as a result can also be boring.
This makes the rowing machine an ideal 'candidate' to pair with the
gaming-inspired, competitive content I began thinking about in
2016. The research was telling me there was a definite potential
market niche I could fill but what I didn't know was that no
manufacturer would speak to me. I probably called and emailed 50
manufacturers. I eventually kickstarted a few conversations and
finally a relationship, by flying to Taiwan, connecting with a
local who could translate, and knocking on doors in person. It
sounds reasonable in hindsight but the process to finalizing a
production contract start to finish took me a full year. A year of
trying to understand the manufacturing landscape, developing
relationships and convincing potential suppliers that I would
eventually be worth their time. Ultimately my key takeaway is that
Taiwanese manufacturing relationships are just that -
relationships. Manufacturers are looking for long-term trusting
partnerships and they are much less motivated by money than my
initial assumption. I'm reminded of this constantly - this month
alone I have received emails re: product delays twice - and I
stupidly tried to throw money at the problem, in the process
offending the Taiwan team by implying they would work harder if
money was on the table. Finding and building a solid relationship
with a production partner was challenging but I would give it a
7/10 relative to the hurdles that came later. The manufacturer had
no experience or interest in getting the machine to work along with
our custom android touchscreen. As much as I see myself as a "tech
guy", I don't have an engineering degree. My dad does and so does
my brother but I went the business degree route. Long story short,
figuring out the details of making these two pieces work together
was a nightmare. Again, in hindsight, it's kind of cool - I
understand my machine inside and out; I'm confident I could take it
apart down to the screws and put it back together. I can also work
comfortably with an oscilloscope and understand how most of the
components work on a typical fitness equipment circuit board -
there was a lot of circuit board soldering trial and error at one
point. I knew that I was taking on a lot with a software and
hardware venture but what nobody tells you is how many miles you're
going to drive and fly when you're taking on hardware. During our
slow tip-toe pivot from B2B to B2C sales, we discovered home
customers would find 10x the problems a gym would. There was a week
in 2019 I drove to a customer's home 6 hours away multiple times a
week for nearly a month. Each trip I thought we had found the
solution; the ride back was crushing. This was one of many problems
we faced. I'm happy to be able to say the bugs are mostly worked
out! Our customers navigate a 22" touchscreen to browse 250ish
content options - like my favorite and the first game we ever
developed - Last Hope, an end-of-the-world inspired game where
you're being chased by zombies. As your row to escape the Ai will
benchmark your fitness output and adjust the zombies' speed to
maintain a challenging pace for your fitness level. The content
for Aviron was developed with strength training and High Intensity
Interval Training (HIIT) in mind. For example, one of our 6
workouts categories is "Pros vs. Joes", a program that allows you
to compete against pre-recorded Olympians and professional athletes
in a race. Our customers are fitness enthusiasts who don't enjoy
long cardio workouts and crave the competitive and challenging pace
of activities like CrossFit and F45, at home - especially
throughout Covid. HIIT workouts tend to be shorter, have been
proven to improve cognitive ability and help slow the aging process
via preservation of DNA. To me, the dual cognitive and physical
benefits were really key. I began to work out in my teens,
physically I felt better and my self esteem improved. Cognitively,
I went from dealing with undiagnosed ADHD and struggling my way
through school to slowly noticing an improvement. People told me I
was "growing out of" ADHD - which is probably partially true - but
something clicked when I was researching fitness programming for
Aviron. Learning about HIIT and it's (data proven) benefits, I
started to realize that my commitment to consistent and challenging
physical fitness had likely paid a large part in my "growing out
it" as well. Currently, we have bootstrapped Aviron to a good
place; we've sold nearly a thousand rowers to gyms, hotels, schools
and even Nike headquarters as well as homes. Or churn rate is <1%
and our customers are telling us they're happy. And they're paying
their membership every month so we believe them. :) We are
continually working on Aviron to improve the software, content and
customer experience so if you have a chance please check us out and
let me know what you think. I'm excited to hear from the community.
I'll be hanging out in the comments all day.
Author : FullNameAndy
Score : 114 points
Date : 2021-01-25 16:53 UTC (6 hours ago)
| cycomanic wrote:
| Great idea! I used to be a competitive rower. When I was working
| at a gym during my studies I was actually talking with the
| managers of running some rowing classes (similar to spinning).
|
| I think the main challenge with rowing machines (and the reason
| why we didn't do rowing classes), is that for beginners there is
| essentially only hard or off, i.e. it is difficult to adjust to
| different exhaustion levels. That leads to high frustration
| levels and is the reason why one rarely sees someone at the gym
| using the machines more than 5mins (and those that do are often
| former rowers). So HIT is probably the right way to go.
|
| The other challenge I is related to hardware. The reason why
| everyone is talking about the C2s is that pretty much every other
| machine is crap. The forces pulling on these machines are
| substantive and concept managed to make a machine that held up
| over time, unlike the others. So I hope you guys made those
| things sturdy enough.
|
| All the best, I hope you succeed!
| DennisP wrote:
| Why is it hard or off as a beginner? I had the same issue at
| first but now I can ease off and do a straight 30 minutes. I
| assumed it was mental but it sounds like it's technique.
|
| Fwiw I have the Oartec DX, and it's very solidly built.
|
| On dynamic rowers like this, the seat stays pretty much in one
| place and it's mainly the footpad that moves. Supposedly it
| puts less stress on the lower back and knees, and more closely
| simulates rowing on the water, so some elite rowing teams use
| them.
|
| I don't know about all that but I have a knee that gives me
| trouble sometimes, and with the Oartec I can put that foot on
| the ground and row with the other leg.
|
| https://oartec.com/
|
| https://www.rp3rowing.com/products/
|
| Concept2 makes one now too:
|
| https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/dynamic
|
| (I guess a drawback is it doesn't really lend itself to a nice
| big screen like OP's project.)
| kitd wrote:
| _The other challenge I is related to hardware. The reason why
| everyone is talking about the C2s is that pretty much every
| other machine is crap. The forces pulling on these machines are
| substantive and concept managed to make a machine that held up
| over time, unlike the others. So I hope you guys made those
| things sturdy enough._
|
| Robustness isn't the only reason C2s are considered the best.
| Unlike all the cheap brands, Concept2 have very accurately
| measured the moment of inertia of their flywheel and have an
| exacting manufacturing process that ensures it stays true.
|
| As a result, the power data you see on the screen is an
| accurate measure of the work you're doing.
|
| Most (not all) machines guesstimate it in comparison. You can
| just go with HR if you want, but don't pretend you can compare
| any other figures sensibly with a C2.
|
| Point of note: the "distance" figure on a C2 is based on what a
| coxless four would have covered under the same power.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| You might be surprised to hear that regardless of what the
| damper is set to, the metrics do not change on the display if
| you were to maintain the same SPM and stroke length.
| kart23 wrote:
| Not sure what you're claiming, but SPM and stroke length
| isn't a measure of how much work you are doing. For
| instance, you could have the exact same SPM, stroke length,
| and damper settings, and row either a 3:00 or a 2:00 500m
| time.
| jrudolph wrote:
| Certainly more accurate than most other ergs (that's how we
| rowers call them). However, it's not perfect. Nothing is ever
| perfect when it comes to measuring real world biomechanics. I
| did competitive rowing in my youth + I've spent a couple
| years building rowing technology, sensors + telemetry, so I
| can maybe offer a few interesting insights about their
| issues. Don't get me wrong, C2 ergs are great craftsmanship,
| built like tanks and I've spent a few hundreds hours on these
| machines (blaming the weather gods and the winter season).
|
| 1) The PM2 units (the old LCD ones, stock on Model C ergs)
| were particularly bad, suffering from some well known
| "issues". The sensors in them had not a high enough sample
| rate + high hysteresis in the sensors. That means that
| "pulling hard" at the catch (for non-on-the-water rowers: the
| beginning of a stroke cycle, when your hands are closest to
| the flywheel) and then backing off the handle force rewards
| you with higher measured power than actual.
|
| 2) This became a lot better with the PM4 generation (stock on
| Model D and up). However they still have another issue. The
| force exerted by the suspension cord that pulls the chain
| back into the housing is not subtracted from the measurement.
| The sensor only measures effective force/rpm on the flywheel.
| This is the reason why virtual regattas (serious competitions
| anyway) are always staged on brand new ergs where the
| suspension cords have not different levels of fatigue. The
| ergs are typically sold off after the events (which is of
| course a marketing/logistics trick just as well).
|
| "Proper" testing on a C2 thus involves measuring handle force
| directly. This can be done by linking a strain gauge between
| handle and chain.
|
| 3) Speaking of racing events, it's pretty interesting how C2
| has enabled virtual/digital racing long before "digitalising"
| things was a big trend. The interface that the PM4s use for
| regattas is based on RS485 over RJ45 (you can also use USB
| but that's not the recommended way for large scale > 16 seats
| races). The PM3 were wired using telephone/RJ11 and I think
| it was RS232 IIRC.
|
| 4) The single most important "calibration" on a Concept rower
| is the Drag Factor (the displays can show it in an advanced
| menu). The drag factor is essentially how fast the flywheel
| slows down, i.e. how much drag it has. Different ergs have
| different amounts of dust in them and wear on the bearings,
| which is why the "flap setting" really shouldn't be used as
| an absolute/comparable measure between machines.
|
| Racing with a higher/lower drag factor is purely a matter of
| preference of the athlete and where their personal optimum
| for performing mechanical work lies. You can think of it like
| a gearing to increase resistance. In "on the water" rowing we
| can change gearing using inner/outer handle length of the oar
| on the gate to achieve a similar effect. This is very
| important since speed vs. the water varies a lot between boat
| classes from about ~4m/s in a single (1x) to ~6m/s in a
| 8+/4x. Our testing protocols recommended 125-140 (female-
| male).
|
| 5) While everyone obsesses over watts, that's not the whole
| picture. To move a boat (virtual or real) you need work, not
| power. Since ergs don't float, their mechanics are a lot
| simpler than a real rowing boat. Work on an erg is handle
| force x distance, i.e. you integrate the force-distance curve
| of the handle. That means long strokes are better - the most
| common beginner mistake is to waste stroke length.
|
| 6) Related to 1) and 5) there's a special "erg technique" of
| pulling the chord up the chest as you move angle your back
| backwards at the end. This gains you extra stroke length and
| "stealing" a bit more mechanical work due to sensor
| hysteresis. This works on a PM4 and up too. You can only get
| away with this on an erg. On the water pulling off this sort
| of trick at race speeds will most likely eject you from the
| boat. It may look like a funny catapult but ejecting from the
| boat can 100% kill you if your head hits a rigger or blade.
| See [0] for a close encounter.
|
| 7a) "Ergs don't float" is a saying for another important
| reason. They fail to simulate the impulse exchange between
| rower and boat mass. This is very important for real world
| rowing performance because minimizing boat shell velocity
| fluctuations means less mechanical work required to travel
| the same distance [1]. This is also the reason why it's
| preferable to have a "front-loaded" force curve profile.
| Coincidentally the sensor hysteresis of the concept ergs
| rewards that... maybe it's engineered intentionally? :-)
|
| 7b) Anyways, Avoiding vertical shell movement is of similar
| importance as wetted surface (and thus drag) increases
| massively if you push the boat down into the water. Athletes
| thus have a to maintain very delicate balance between
| stretcher and handle forces not to offset the systems center
| of mass during the stroke cycle. None of that matters on an
| erg.
|
| 7c) And most important: Ergs don't simulate the interaction
| of impulse exchanges between a whole crew of rowers that can
| never be perfectly in sync. Concept sells "Sliders" for the
| C2 ergs that you can use for a single erg but also to link
| together multiple ergs to a crew. If you haven't tried this,
| I can highly recommend this as it makes it much more
| realistic and also a lot more challenging. From my coaching
| experience I can also recommend it especially to beginners.
| It may sound counterintuitive, but it's much less forgiving
| to errors in your motion sequence/force application and will
| thus make you a better (and more healthier!) rower much
| quicker.
|
| 8) Rowers are an incredible bunch of creative and resourceful
| people. There's so many tinkerers in the community... a shout
| to a couple of things in the erg space:
|
| - Waterrower hit big thanks to House of Cards. This plus
| cross-fit certainly made rowing much more popular as a sport.
| Waterrowers are not used in serious capacity in competitive
| training though as far as I'm aware.
|
| - Augletics are a bunch of former competitive rowers building
| an erg using a electromagnetic brake (that can support more
| realistic force profiles/dynamics). And you don't get that
| "wooooosh" sound ringing in your ears that won't go away for
| hours after a 90min C2 erg session...
|
| - Biorower simulates proper sculling technique, boat rotation
| and uses mechanical gears instead of a flywheel
|
| Anyhow - great to see more innovation like Aviron in the
| space even if it's "just" targeted at recreational/fitness
| use case. It's a fabulous sport and I applaud you for making
| it more accessible. Hope it gets people to dip their toes so
| they may one day decide to get their feet wet and hit their
| local rowing club.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH2k_026KrY [1]
| https://www.rowinginmotion.com/drag-efficiency-rowing/
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for taking the time to educate myself and the
| community. Like you said, I hope we are able to introduce
| more people to this awesome exercise and sport + help
| people achieve their fitness goals.
| cycomanic wrote:
| I'm aware of that. I would say that's the main reason why
| they are popular with all the rowers, but I doubt it's why
| they are popular with gyms for example.
|
| Note of interest, when I was a junior the concepts started to
| become popular. I was training mainly on the model B, which
| sounded like a jetplane, incredibly loud! It was such a
| change when they brought out the model C. I have never seen a
| model A in real life, but they sure look like made in a
| garage.
|
| model B: https://www.concept2.com/service/indoor-
| rowers/model-b
|
| model A: https://www.concept2.com/service/indoor-
| rowers/model-a
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for the feedback! So far customers are happy and we
| haven't had many issues. Its a big challenge for sure, but
| someone had to try and do something different :)
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| We appreciate that. So far the machines have held up in
| commercial facilities as well as homes and you're right we did
| our best to make sure they hold up for the long haul!
| robomartin wrote:
| I wish you great success.
|
| That said, be aware that true rowers hate some of this stuff
| because you can actually hurt people through various kinds of
| repetitive motion injuries if you don't teach, promote and
| highlight proper technique. The people you have on video yanking
| on the handle are a sure-bet formula for getting hurt. Which
| means you could be looking at one ore more lawsuits in the
| future.
|
| It's the same with lifting.
|
| Context: Rower for quite some time, currently own and have owned
| Concept 2 machines for years. Owned a range or rowing shells for
| years. Also strength training.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thank you and I completely agree. I gave my parents a rower and
| making sure they use proper form and technique were critical.
| We continue to work on ways to prevent injuries.
| useful wrote:
| I have a C2 and a Wahoo Kickr.
|
| I think you are targeting the wrong market if you intend to build
| a machine.
|
| As a cyclist, the market sweet spot to me is the ability to set a
| wattage on a rower and have the machine automatically adjust the
| resistance so that I can hit the correct wattage/hour.
|
| On the bike, holding a steady cadence and having the machine
| adjust the resistance so I can hit whatever % of FTP I'm wanting
| is the killer feature the C2 is missing.
|
| All the other comments referencing injuries/etc are reflective of
| the need to make an ERG that allows you to just say "do 25
| strokes/min" and if you blow up or cant hold the pace, drop the
| target wattage. It's harder to hurt yourself if the machine is
| setting the difficulty based on your pace and putting some sane
| max limits in.
| cycomanic wrote:
| I have a tacx bike, no rower at the moment, but I get on them
| every time I'm at the gym.
|
| I think the smart bike and rower are very different in terms of
| what you'd do with them. In contrast to a smart bike a rower
| who constantly adjusts is much harder to use. In fact on low
| resistance rowers are almost impossible to use. It's also much
| easier than on the bike to row at a specific wattage without
| ever adjusting the resistance (mind you that requires some
| technique).
| useful wrote:
| Once you get the "feel" doing wattage is pretty easy on a
| static trainer if you change gears or your pedal stroke rate.
| That amount of practice and effort to learn when you only
| want to spend 10-20 minutes working out is beyond a beginner.
| Aviron's whole website is built around games and varied
| resistance. Having the rower do all the thinking for the user
| ala zwift workouts on a tacx is attractive.
|
| I don't understand why pelotons are popular when a
| tacx/wahoo/etc are lightyears ahead in feel and blunting the
| peaks of "pain" from beginner mistakes. The more advanced
| ERGs that adjust are super forgiving and the same would be
| for rowing, avoiding pulling too much lbf and having your
| arms hurt for weeks = avoiding the workouts.
|
| People doing HIIT cardio usually blow up if they put out 10%
| more wattage for a minute or two than their FTP. If a machine
| makes it so you can workout "forever" and simplifies the
| interface of games/workouts so users only need to focus on a
| single metric for game while adjusting all the others, it
| would be a killer feature.
| cycomanic wrote:
| Peleton is popular because it's going for a very different
| market. Those are people who do spinning classes, which has
| only a very small overlap with spinning classes.
|
| In particular they don't really look for the same things
| that someone who buys a smartbike is looking for. Also I
| would add that in terms of build quality, spinning bikes
| are much better IMO than tacx or wahoo.
|
| A bit of a tangent, but it's a shame that Kettler bikes
| never became popular, their hardware is top-notch (proper
| cycling bar, campagnolo ergopower grips), but they never
| implemented ANT or bluetoothsmart so were not compatible
| with Zwift and instead tried to push their own platform.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for the feedback, that's actually a great idea and
| something I think we would consider implementing in a future
| release.
| mawise wrote:
| > I feel like sometimes this pisses the hardcore rowers off but
| I'm not a rower, I'm a tech guy. I also think fitness is
| important and have been working out all of my adult life.
|
| Some other comments have mentioned the Concept 2 and how it's the
| standard. It sounds like you're actually targeting non-rowers who
| want a Peloton-like experience. (Sort of like how Peloton doesn't
| really target the cycling community). Is that how you're thinking
| about positioning?
| elliekelly wrote:
| I'm not OP but I suspect I'm in their target demographic.
| Orangetheory Fitness doesn't use the Concept2 and no one cares.
| I've never once heard anyone at Orangetheory complain that the
| machine wasn't a Concept2.
|
| I don't think the former rowers in this thread complaining
| about the machine are at all reflective of the public at large.
| jedc wrote:
| I'm an OrangeTheory user and complain to my rower friends
| that OT doesn't use Concept2's. But it's not like I have any
| hope of getting OT to adopt a different product, and it's a
| relatively small part of an OT workout.
| rloomba wrote:
| lol you're paying $20 for a 45 min class at Orange Theory...
| if you're shelling out $2500 for a new piece of gym
| equipment, you're going to care a little bit more.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Our customers justify the high price when you consider
| multiple family members would use the machine. Plus,
| convenience has been a major factor. Not having to book a
| class time, find parking, etc. they rather pay more than
| deal with that.
| AWildC182 wrote:
| Just for context, standard is defined on two fronts.
|
| 1. Each machine computes effective Watts differently, so
| pulling your guts out might be 1kW on one machine, and 400W on
| another. Whichever one everyone has the most experience with
| wins here.
|
| 2. There are a bunch of different designs across about three
| different resistance modes available A. air B. water and C.
| hydraulic piston. Air is generally regarded as the best as it
| doesn't change felt resistance with time, though it can be
| somewhat noisy, maybe 70dB. Water heats up as all the energy is
| dumped into it without anywhere else for it to go, so the
| viscosity changes very noticeably over a long workout. These
| also tend to have a nylon strap instead of a chain which
| stretches and can cause an odd sensation. Finally the worst,
| hydraulic piston, which has the smallest mass to dump energy
| into, will change resistance dramatically in a short time, and
| have been known to fail with experienced rowers, sometimes
| explosively.
|
| There is room for an electrical resistance variant in this
| lineup, as has been shown with cycling, though it's important
| to note that thermodynamics specifies the energy has to go
| somewhere, and you may end up with a dangerously hot resistor
| bank somewhere on the machine.
|
| It should also be noted that experienced rowers can output a
| considerable amount of power. Enough to cause piston rowers to
| overheat and explode/vent. Just because your resident
| mechanical engineer can't break the prototype doesn't mean you
| shouldn't find someone who can hit National Team numbers and
| have them go at it for an hour straight.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for the context. We have a few Olympic rowers as part
| of "Pros vs Joes" on our rower. So far, the rower is still
| working :)
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Exactly. I really should have stated this above. You explained
| it perfectly.
| nonrower2 wrote:
| Not a rower here. I do however own a concept2 and will never buy
| a machine in order to try your product. Any way to connect my
| concept 2?
| 2snakes wrote:
| How do you deal with the seat problem? Anything over 30 min is a
| pain in the a$$.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Good question. I think its the same with other equipment, like
| spin bikes. It'll hurt a lot the first few times. But your butt
| get used to it over time.
| [deleted]
| abarringer wrote:
| I have health issues and I try to correlate cause and effect.
|
| I use a rower several times a day, it sits next to my desk. One
| thing I would love is an API that enables download of key stats
| like watts, times, etc.
|
| I value raw data over slick apps. I have my own data sources for
| heart rate, glucose and a few other things. It would be great to
| integrate this into my home brew system.
|
| Dexcom has a decent API for instance https://developer.dexcom.com
|
| Or start a line of exercise/health equipment that features
| integrations with fitness watches, indoor air quality
| monitors(VOC's), blood pressure, glucose, blood oxygen,
| weather(smog, pollen) etc etc.
|
| It should help answer questions like Does my blood
| pressure/glucose behave different when: * row for 10 minutes and
| generate _x_ watts * pollen is high, smog is dense * use a
| standing desk vs sitting
|
| So far it seems that busting out 10 minutes on a rower seems to
| have positive effects for at least 24hrs unlike moderate running.
| I would love to get the actual data on a chart.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I agree. One of the biggest challenges we have is integrating
| to other apps and products. Even getting the Apple or Garmin
| watch to integrate is difficult because of their limited/closed
| ecosystem.
| nradov wrote:
| The latest Garmin wearable devices support the ANT+ FE-C
| profile so if you implement that then it should just work.
| There's no need to specifically integrate with their closed
| ecosystem.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| hmm. Very true. Thanks for the idea.
| biztos wrote:
| I might be the target market for this.
|
| I have a Concept 2 at a house I go to a couple times a year for
| up to a month each time. My normal cardio is a standard treadmill
| at the gym, and I bought the C2 because a serious treadmill
| wouldn't work at that location.
|
| It has been really hard to get into the rowing thing. I've never
| done crew so there's no external context for me. I find it's a
| great way to get the heart rate up in a short time, but totally
| lacks the zone-out meditative quality of the treadmill.
|
| If there were a rowing machine that had some built in motivator
| that would make me go use it every day for more than a few
| minutes at a time, and it shipped worldwide, I'd seriously
| consider it for my next country place.
|
| My motivation problems notwithstanding, I will say I think the
| Concept 2 is a great machine and absolutely feels like it's worth
| the price. The fact I'd find the same machine in lots of gyms
| would be a plus if I could get over the hump. So fitness-center
| ubiquity should also be a goal I think.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| What you're describing really resonates with me - I knew it was
| a good workout but staying on for any length of time is
| challenging if you're not a "rower". The experience the content
| provides is what keeps our customers getting back on the
| machine every day and why we took the direction we did with
| Aviron. Thanks for sharing your experience.
| arkh wrote:
| Parler, Aviron: is the new naming trend gonna be using French
| words?
|
| HIIT workouts are good but doing some cardio helps. And for
| beginner rowers I think it is a good idea to have learning
| programs so they don't fuck-up their back by not using their legs
| to their full potential. A side camera with some live coaching
| sessions would be tremondously helpful there.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| You're 100% right - and that's the nice thing about purchasing
| an Aviron rower for your home, you're able to incorporate
| cardio, strength and HIIT workouts on one machine. We do have
| learning programs for beginners that show proper form etc. The
| machine also senses pace and output and will let the user know
| if they are moving too fast (for example). Live coaching would
| be cool - thanks for the suggestion!
| gavanwoolery wrote:
| I gotta say, rowing had zero appeal for me until I got into HIIT
| (F45).
|
| Even though I have been using it for three years, I would still
| say it is the most punishing/rewarding piece of equipment at my
| gym, and probably the only one that is still capable of leaving
| me (literally) breathless.
|
| I've been thinking about getting a rowing machine for home just
| for some quick two-minute bursts of cardio to break up my
| sitting, so this might be a worthwhile purchase when I can budget
| it in. Also my wife has been looking to buy a Peloton so maybe I
| can convince her to get this instead. :)
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Your experience really speaks to our target demo :) and you're
| not wrong - it is definitely punishing (good word to describe
| it!) which is why we really focused (and continue to focus) on
| making our content fun and engaging.
| m00dy wrote:
| Hello,
|
| I have been rowing since beginning of Covid and I think it is a
| great exercise for a software developer.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for sharing your experience. Rowing is definitely making
| a comeback and is becoming more popular.
| the_arun wrote:
| I feel like how to tap this energy from these exercises as
| electricity & store them in batteries.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Some fitness equipment do this already. I'd love to see it
| happen with our rower, but I feel the screen is a bit too
| hungry.
| wyck wrote:
| I wish someone who figure out how to make a paddling machine, it
| much better for your core, back and overall everything than a
| rowing machine.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| someone probably will.. eventually :)
| OliverJones wrote:
| Get your stuff working on Concept IIs as well as your own
| ergometers. Just do it. Seriously. If your subscription business
| depends on selling your customers your own ergometer first,
| you'll have a very steep barrier between you and success.
|
| Recent models of the C2 monitor have connectivity features.
|
| There's an opportunity for remote-community features for indoor
| rowing like what Zwift offers for biking. And you won't have to
| deal with shipping heavy stuff to every customer before they
| subscribe.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| A huge part of our experience is the electronically controlled
| resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of force. Our high-
| intensity games and strength content, which differentiates us,
| requires this and the reason why we opted to build our own
| rower instead of just an app or working with any existing
| machines.
| freerobby wrote:
| I can see why the ECR piece is a handy input for the games,
| but having tried every connected rowing app under the sun, I
| think what is missing in this space is quite simple: having
| compelling content and compelling software on the same
| platform. As someone who relates to your experience (tech
| guy, non-rower who just wants to stay in shape), it's hard
| for me to see how your success hinges on ECR rather than the
| software and content. But I also understand you've already
| made a large bet on this, and I hope it pays off for you.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks! There are a variety of other reasons we decided to
| make our own rower. So far I'm happy with our decision :)
| ivankirigin wrote:
| So fish-game on the Concept2 isn't enough for yall?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Hahaha. To each their own.
| snarkypixel wrote:
| I already have a rowing machine, I wish I could simply add the
| Aviron screen to it.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I get it. This it the most common question we are asked. A huge
| part of our experience is the electronically controlled
| resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of force. Our high-
| intensity games and strength content, which differentiates us,
| requires this and the reason why we opted to build our own
| rower.
| bigfish24 wrote:
| As former competitive rower, can't see switching to anything but
| C2, but I like the idea to expand the market to more. My biggest
| concern is that it tends to take 4-6 weeks to get comfortable
| with posture and just sitting on the machine for extended periods
| (the unfortunate challenge of the machine engaging so many
| muscles). For novices, this valley of death is where so many give
| up. For example, coming back in the fall always started with
| awkwardly slow pieces to get the "feel" again. Figure out how to
| make this fun, and I am a believer you can spread the sport!
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for the support! Exactly, we aren't going after the hard
| core crowd. We feel rowing is amazing and we can get more butts
| of seats by making the experience more enjoyable.
| kvanlombeek wrote:
| Hi, I have a concept 2 at Home, I use it a lot to stay in shape
| for my other sports, mountain biking and windsurfing. I love the
| concept 2, but I love your product more.
|
| Can you use help in Europe? Maybe as a distributor or somebody
| that looks for events to sponsor? Would love to help.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Awesome to hear! We are pretty young so our focus is in North
| America at this time, but I'll keep you in mind for when we
| expand.
| CJefferson wrote:
| When I first looked at your website I wondered if you were a
| spin-off / subsidiary of Peloton. The whole design / feel feels
| identical to me. How close can the "look and feel" of two
| websites be nowadays before you get in trouble? (genuine
| question)
|
| Honestly, I would consider trying to get your own, more
| independent look+feel, even if you by coincidence ended up with
| your landing page looking like Peloton.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| As a young fitness company i'll take the comparison to Peloton
| as a compliment. I see what you mean and to your point branding
| and differentiating will become a higher priority when we can
| afford to do so.
| slingnow wrote:
| They're not comparing your company to Peloton -- they're
| comparing your website, which appears to be "influenced" by
| the Peloton site. The color scheme is pretty much identical.
| I don't think it's meant as a compliment as anyone could
| hijack some CSS from a competing website.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Makes sense. We do plan on revamping out website in the
| near future and will keep this in mind.
| SkyMarshal wrote:
| I'm a cyclist who likes to complement cycling's lower-body
| workout with upper-body workouts in the gym or the pool. But
| since COVID I've been looking for an alternative I can do
| independently, either outdoors or at home.
|
| Last spring I bought a barbell and some weights, and that helps.
| But I'd really like the same kind of interval workout for my
| upper-body as swimming provides.
|
| I started looking into rowing machines recently and came to same
| conclusion as you - works most of your muscles, and provides both
| interval and resistance workouts. Seems perfect for the Corona
| Era.
| sophacles wrote:
| Another place to look for upper body training that fits nice
| into HIIT (e.g. if you don't have the space for a rowing
| machine) is sledgehammer workouts. Not quite as good for
| cardio, but pretty intense and uses a lot of muscle groups.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Yep! Rowing is a great workout and we hope the trend picks up
| more in the mainstream as people realize that. Thanks for
| sharing.
| ADominic wrote:
| Cool product, congrats on the early success. My question: If the
| goal is HIIT or shorter workouts, why a rowing machine? Have you
| considered a design that incorporates pushing exercises as well
| like Concept2's Dyno - https://www.concept2.com/service/dyno ?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| That's a really interesting looking machine - thanks for
| sharing. We chose the rower because it is one of the best full
| body workout machines and is something most people are somewhat
| familiar with thanks to the Olympics, CrossFit, Orange Theory,
| etc.
| throwawayrower wrote:
| How long are your typical workouts?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| While there is a good variety of longer workouts and content,
| our focus was creating really solid engaging HIIT (high
| intensity interval training) content. So short and intense
| programming was key for us. As a result, there are races that
| are only 30 seconds, games that have 2, 5, and 10 minute
| options and strength programs that range from 10-20 minutes.
| Our experience page outlines the workout types and lengths if
| you'd like to dive in https://www.avironactive.com/experience/
| dumbfoundded wrote:
| I always felt a large missing aspect was the realism as it
| relates to water. In particular, on a machine you neither feather
| nor feel variable resistance due to how vertical your blade is.
| There are a lot of specific details that the machine doesn't
| capture that I think make the actual experience on the water much
| more thoughtful than just pulling as hard and fast as you can.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| You are 100% right. We try our best to create an experience
| that is as similar to rowing on water as possible, but of
| course it won't be the same. But most people who purchase our
| rower aren't looking for a realistic experience, they want an
| amazing workout that's fun more than anything.
| dumbfoundded wrote:
| With variable electronic resistance and a rotating handle it
| should be possible, it should be possible in theory. It's
| definitely not something everyone is going for. I think you
| could improve form a lot just by helping people make sure
| their getting full extension and going through the motions in
| the correct order.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| That makes sense. Maybe at some point we can use the camera
| on the screen to analyze the users form. Thanks for the
| feedback.
| newbie578 wrote:
| I'm not part of the target demographic, but I will say this looks
| compelling to me. If Peloton can do it for cycling, I do not see
| the reason you cannot do it for rowing.
|
| Although a pain point kind of seems obvious, Peloton is
| successful because cycling by itself is "approachable". Anyone
| can hop on a bike and just start cycling, doesn't matter on your
| gender, weight, or conditioning.
|
| While rowing, eh.. You said it yourself, people avoid it in gyms
| like the plague. Don't get me wrong, I love rowing for the same
| reasons you do, rowing is the activity I do the most during the
| week.
|
| It's just that a lot of people do not like rowing, or/and are
| scared of it, and the biggest "problem", it is hard, way harder
| than anything else in the gym.
|
| So it seems that you are naturally blocked with a certain ceiling
| as to how much you can grow and where. While you are establishing
| a moat yourself to keep competitors away, the bigger question is
| how is the customer going to cross the "rowing moat" to even try
| your product?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Great point. I feel things are changing. Thanks to CrossFit,
| Orange Theory, F45, etc. rowing is becoming more popular. 5
| years ago there weren't many rowing studio like there are
| spinning classes. Now you have chains like RowHouse with 300
| locations.
| exotree wrote:
| I think this is a great and fantastic idea; it's something I
| imagine a lot of Crossfit folks would be very willing to buy,
| especially in a pandemic. And it's a target market with money and
| motivation! I definitely prefer this over biking.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Exactly our target. The competitive folks who are lacking HIIT
| workout options at home.. like you said especially with the
| pandemic. Thanks!
| Multiplayer wrote:
| Hi - congrats on your amazing looking product and experience!
|
| I just purchased an Ergatta 2 weeks ago, waiting for delivery. In
| what circumstances would I want your product instead of the
| Ergatta?
|
| Background: I'm an avid peloton user for 3 years now, (also just
| picked up the tempo.fit for guided lifting) and am looking to mix
| in intense rowing sessions. The Ergatta looks compelling for
| gamified sessions with competition.
|
| Change my mind?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| ha ha great question! Ergatta is a great product. They also
| offer some versions of competitive workouts. Where Aviron
| differs is our machines are built with dual magnetic and air
| resistance, this allows our machines to go to much higher
| resistance levels. For example, our strength programs will
| guide you through bicep curls and back rows where you are
| "lifting" 50+ Lbs. with each pull. A water rower on the other
| hand does not have variable resistance settings. Aviron also
| incorporates fully animated video games that include being
| chased by zombies and throw backs to old school favorites like
| pong and brick breaker. If you're interested we have a long-ish
| content video that goes into depth:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN2PVuK73Xg
| AWildC182 wrote:
| Long time high level rower here. Why make a new rowing machine
| when Concept 2 is the calibration standard all athletes use and
| has a relatively open USB interface?
|
| For those not in the know, rowing machines all have different
| calibrations. C2 is the standard because they're very consistent
| across machines and are by far the best made allowing for many
| thousands of hours of use without failures. Most experienced
| rowers won't touch anything other than a C2.
|
| Edit: reading further, the 'moat' here appears to be electrically
| controlled 100lb high resistance settings. Be VERY careful with
| this. It's well established that most non-trained athletes will
| hurt themselves with this feature as it's a common trope on C2
| machines. The rowing posture can be rather dangerous for high
| weight if misused.
| gregsadetsky wrote:
| Not only does the C2 has an USB interface, but recent models
| have Bluetooth as well...! (I'm a happy C2 owner)
|
| I found an example project some time ago of a web site using
| Chrome's Bluetooth JavaScript API to recreate a rowing monitor
| and filed it away in case I would ever get to that side project
| :-)
|
| In case someone's interested to collab: I would build a 3D
| world through which you row. I know apps/games like these exist
| but an open version would be great (also the ones I found
| seemed to have so-so 3d graphics). And compatibility with VR
| headsets too..!
|
| Just to add to this: an Apple TV-compatible, 3D rowing app
| would be supremely interesting to consider...
|
| Building a web-based C2 monitor via Bluetooth:
| https://bandarra.me/2017/02/20/Fitness-Tracking-with-Web-Blu...
|
| Interacting with Bluetooth over JS: https://web.dev/bluetooth/
|
| The Bluetooth communications spec from C2!
| https://www.concept2.co.uk/files/pdf/us/monitors/PM5_Bluetoo...
| ghaff wrote:
| I'm pretty good about going out to take a walk/hike pretty
| much any day when the weather is remotely tolerable. But
| exercise equipment really does bore me. My C2 is 15+ years
| old and I don't use it a lot. But I'd upgrade the performance
| monitor in a heartbeat if there were a way to use it in
| conjunction with an Apple TV for a _non-subscription_
| immersive experience. (Something in the Hydrow vein.)
| Alex3917 wrote:
| > C2 is the standard because they're very consistent across
| machines and are by far the best made allowig for many
| thousands of hours of use without failures. Most experienced
| rowers won't touch anything other than a C2.
|
| Most colleges also have a few Gamuts around. I actually think
| it would be really fun to do quarter mile sprints against real
| people on a Gamut-type erg with these kind of screens.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Hey Alex, you are right, most experienced rowers won't touch
| anything other than a C2. But there are a ton of people who
| see the benefits of rowing but aren't interested in the C2
| for various reasons. We feel we have a great alternative for
| those people.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Great question and ADominic answered it well. The C2 is an
| amazing rower, I have one too. We don't target the hard core
| rower. And a huge part of our high intensity experience is the
| electronically controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs
| of resistance. Our rower automatically adjusts the resistance
| depending on the workout and your goals.
| naewonawonga wrote:
| >> We don't target the hard core rower.
|
| Your marketing material suggests that one of the strengths of
| the platform is that it allows one to compete against
| professional athletes and Olympians.
|
| Which is it?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I've always wanted to see what it is like racing against
| some of the best athletes like Olympic boxers or MMA
| champions, but it doesn't mean I'm a hard core rower :)
| AWildC182 wrote:
| Why vary resistance? Most athletes learn to handle one
| resistance setting, the National Team standard being IIRC
| DF120, though anything between 100 and 120 is fine. Changing
| it tends to throw people for a loop.
| sleepydog wrote:
| I rowed in college and have countless hours on concept 2
| rowers. Outside of very specific drills I picked one weight
| setting and stuck with it. If I wanted to vary the
| difficulty I just rowed faster.
|
| I don't think varying the weight is good for your form and
| it could be dangerous for your back if your form is bad.
| After all, you can't vary the resistance of water in a real
| boat (I suppose you could pour gelatin in a lake).
| Intensity could be varied just by changing the stroke rate.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| good question. Aviron's resistance settings are used to
| enable high intensity interval training (HIIT) and workout
| variety for the average person/ fitness enthusiast. For
| example we have strength programs that guide you through
| bicep curls using the bar (with an animation that shows
| feet firmly planted on the ground and a low and steady
| motion, if you're moving too quickly Aviron will sense it
| and tell you to slow down your movement)
| phjesusthatguy3 wrote:
| I've seen numerous ads for Peleton; I have no idea what Concept
| 2 is, much less some ad on YC for yet another YC product I'm
| not going to buy.
|
| In addition, I've seen at least one New York Times article
| (each) wringing their hands about Biden riding a Peleton and
| wearing a Rolex, like it's surprising that US Presidents are
| inordinately rich.
|
| Anyway, I'm gonna get my fat ass back on the hydraulic rowing
| machine I have stored in my basement before I buy anything else
| from anyone.
| madaxe_again wrote:
| This was my query - it's almost impossible to replace the
| concept 2, as it's the de facto standard for splits and 2k
| times etc.
|
| Add to that, I recall us racing the ergs on a virtual lake on a
| tv as far back as 2000 or so - made doing 2ks way more
| interesting, as you could compete with the rest of the crew
| directly.
| monadic3 wrote:
| > Why make a new rowing machine when Concept 2 is the
| calibration standard all athletes use and has a relatively open
| USB interface?
|
| Locking people into the real revenue machine, the content, is
| critical.
|
| This is not intended to be an affordable alternative to the
| Concept 2, it's a different market entirely.
|
| If you're worried about interoperability and cost, they
| probably don't anticipate getting your business.
| ADominic wrote:
| also a former rower - I don't think we're the target market. If
| you've never touched an erg, it might not really matter whether
| you start on a C2 or not. And I'd guess controlling the
| hardware also gives them more control over the entire user
| experience + their own costs.
| AWildC182 wrote:
| I see this as an insanely dangerous game. IME most non-rowers
| won't touch an erg without significant
| instruction/encouragement as they're technique dependent. Any
| that do will quickly figure out from anyone who has rowed
| that C2 is the standard and everything else on the market is
| flaming garbage.
|
| Add to this that I could recreate this business using the C2
| API in a couple weeks and suddenly have a market of everyone
| who owns a C2 (all the people in this thread complaining that
| it doesn't support their machine) along with a literal
| potential customer list available through C2.
| chermanowicz wrote:
| This. As a former rower I'm biased, but also I have a C2
| that sits around unused, mainly because as I've gotten
| older, I care less about the competitive/fitness
| optimization aspect of working out and more about fun.
|
| Having tried several of the third party apps for C2,
| they've all suffered from 2 problems: pretty sub-par
| development/bugginess & wrong (or bad) content for the mass
| market. So much training oriented content and little on the
| fun/gamification side. I would pay $ for the right app, but
| not for a new rower. Ergatta is cool but again I wouldn't
| go out and buy one. When you think about the hundreds of
| thousands of C2s, it is a nice opportunity.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| You make a good point re: the C2 market. I mentioned up top
| that a huge part of our experience is the electronically
| controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of force.
| Our high-intensity games and strength content, which
| differentiates us, requires this and the reason why we
| opted to build our own rower. Thanks for the feedback.
| AWildC182 wrote:
| Edited my comment when I saw this. This is exceedingly
| dangerous. Ask any rower that's worked with people on C2
| machines. Everyone will instinctively throw the damper to
| setting 10, then throw their back due to bad posture.
| cycomanic wrote:
| I'm a former rower as well, I disagree that sitting on a
| rower is dangerous for getting back injury. Considering
| that pretty much every gym I know just puts them in some
| corner without anyone around who knows how to row, I
| believe this is not an issue.
|
| I know of no one who has injured themselves rowing (on a
| machine or outside).
| AWildC182 wrote:
| This is going to come down to experience but I'd say the
| majority of those I trained with had dealt with an injury
| at one point or another. Most women, particularly the
| lightweight class experienced broken ribs from strain
| across the core and most of the guys had lower back
| issues at one point or another.
|
| I'm not saying these things are death machines or
| anything, but the concept of adding essentially seated
| row to a rowing machine is fairly dangerous. Throwing an
| air damper up to 10 and ripping on it for a couple
| minutes will leave you quite sore the next morning but
| adding high weight can start pulling muscles or slipping
| discs.
| Alex3917 wrote:
| Most high-level rowers develop back problems, but these
| aren't primarily from the rowing machine, and your
| chances of developing the same kinds of problems while
| casually working out to meet your daily fitness goals are
| basically zero.
|
| E.g. almost all high-level swimmers have shoulder
| problems, but no one who just goes for a swim a few times
| a week is going to injure their shoulders. Almost all
| baseball players have ankle problems, but no one who
| plays baseball with friends after work is at risk of
| this.
|
| The reason rowers get back problems is basically a
| combination of overuse, the asymmetric load-bearing
| motion of sweep, and underdeveloped antagonistic muscles.
| Given the device and the target market, none of these
| issues are really at play here.
| cycomanic wrote:
| Interesting I rowed more than 13 years on national level
| up to u21 and never had any back problems until I hit a
| car cycling and fracturing my t6. I also don't know of
| any of my former friends who developed back pain. I
| actually always put this done to having very good core
| strength from rowing.
|
| In contrast or my cycling friends (which I took up after)
| have back problems, in particular the ones who started
| when young.
|
| Mind you this was more than 20 years ago so maybe the
| training regime has changed.
| AWildC182 wrote:
| That makes sense, the issues I saw were mostly at the
| post collegiate/open level. There were some issues in
| U23s but that was somewhat rare, at least compared to
| alcohol inflicted injuries :)
| Alex3917 wrote:
| > Everyone will instinctively throw the damper to setting
| 10, then throw their back due to bad posture.
|
| The people who do that normally only row for a few
| minutes at a time, and aren't really at any significant
| risk of injury. The only class of people who seem to
| consistently develop back problems from rowing machines
| are people who train on them for hours a day in high
| school and never lift weights.
|
| All the other back injuries in rowing are usually from
| either sweep rowing or from lifting.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Good point. We do our best to educate users with intro
| rowing videos that can be found on the touchscreen. Any
| any time the resistance is at a high level, we use little
| animations that show proper form and technique.
| AWildC182 wrote:
| This is a kind of thing that needs a lot of direct
| coaching to achieve...
|
| There are two major rowing postures you'll find people
| tend to use, hips rotated forward and hips back (spine
| slightly arched forward/convex). Neither is _really_
| wrong but for high resistance you need to be in the hips
| forward position (back slightly concave) as is the
| technique for weight lifting in the seated row. IME most
| people don 't actually comprehend which position they're
| in but using the wrong one can be catastrophic. You
| typically have to spend a few hours with someone ensuring
| they stay in the correct orientation before they really
| get it.
| FitFox wrote:
| I'm a little confused by your harsh comments AWildC182.
| Obviously you're a fan of the C2, but isn't the point of
| this rower to open up a fitness experience for both new
| and pro users alike that's different from what's already
| been tried and tested in the market? I get the whole
| "don't fix what ain't broke" mindset, but the whole point
| of innovation is to broaden horizons and our experience
| with fitness. Plus, I saw that they have instruction
| videos on how to row, and just like any product, they've
| recommended starting on the easy levels and working your
| way up. Anyone that tosses themselves into the most
| difficult setting on anything without warming up is
| asking for an injury, and this goes beyond rowing.
| ADominic wrote:
| I tend to agree, everyone knows how to ride a bike and
| learning to row without injuring yourself, even on a
| machine, takes time. I wonder what % of people with rowing
| machines at home, c2 or otherwise, are current/former
| rowers vs crossfit, regular gym goers, etc
| rloomba wrote:
| fwiw i'm actually not a former rower and I just purchased a
| C2 after some very light research. It's the industry
| standard, it's relatively cheap, and ALL of the apps are
| specifically designed or have have seamless integration with
| the C2.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| It is a great machine - I have one too :)
| rloomba wrote:
| sweet. If you develop an app that integrates with the C2,
| I will be your first paying user to try it.
| sebasmurphy wrote:
| C2 is really an engineering masterpiece. Simple, works forever,
| cheap replaceable parts, anyone can do the maintenance after
| watching a YouTube vid.
|
| Also super cool that you can upgrade the display/head unit w/o
| having to get a new rower.
|
| It's also significantly cheaper than this machine and has
| exceptionally high re-sale value.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| You are 100% right, the C2 is a tank. I have one too. But the
| C2 might not be right for everyone. I think we might be able
| to get more butts on rowers if we can make the experience
| more enjoyable for those who aren't motivated by the C2 and
| its current content.
| bob1029 wrote:
| The C2 is the best machine I've ever purchased. Ive got 3.6
| million lifetime meters on mine, and the most I've ever done
| to maintain it is wipe down the rail/rollers and put some 3-1
| oil on the chain.
| ingridgf wrote:
| Have you tried Hydrow? Is it similar?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I think Hydrow is an awesome product. They've built something
| great, but very different. They focus on longer aerobic
| (cardio) workouts led by instructors, while we focus on
| anaerobic workouts that are intense, short, have high
| resistance, and in the from of video games, live races, and
| strength programs.
| Lightbody wrote:
| I'm really glad to see this product. I'm also more tech than
| fitness, but I try to get in a quick row or treadmill run every
| day.
|
| In my case, I purchased a Concept 2 a couple years ago, not
| because I'm a rowing enthusiast but because "best rowing machine"
| seemed to point to it and it cost less than my treadmill =P
|
| I found a mount online for the Concept 2 that can attach my iPad
| and the last few weeks I've been using Apple Fitness+, but the
| select is _really_ limited. Also, like all Apple Fitness+
| programs, there is currently no feedback between what I 'm doing
| and what the program is asking/pushing me to do, which is
| disappointing.
|
| I probably won't purchase your product in the near future, given
| that I have a semi-working solution today. But I will encourage
| other folks to check it out if they are in the market for a
| rowing machine. And if you decide to go pursue a strictly
| software/services solution, I absolutely would run your programs
| on my iPad while I row on my Concept 2 :)
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks! I agree that a C2 + Ipad setup might be all that's
| needed for a lot of people to stay motivated. For me, I needed
| more.
| Lightbody wrote:
| Oh, to be clear... I don't think my setup is ideal. I just
| don't think I could justify the additional purchase of your
| product _today_... maybe in a few years.
|
| But if you decided to change up your business model and offer
| the service such that I could run it in my iPad + C2, I am
| pretty sure you'd have me as a monthly subscriber. The
| programs you offer are much more inline with what I'm looking
| for.
|
| Congratulations on the success you've had so far. Good luck!
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thank you!
| multjoy wrote:
| Peloton sued GPLama for simply using the word 'Peloton'. Good
| luck describing yourself as them!
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| We don't typically describe ourselves as the Peloton for
| rowing. But we did so here to make it easy for everyone to
| understand what we built. We appreciate your concern :)
| hagibborim wrote:
| I have a Concept 2 -- how can I incorportate your product into my
| workout?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| A huge part of our experience is the electronically controlled
| resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of resistance. Our high-
| intensity games and strength content, which differentiates us,
| requires this and the reason why we opted to build our own
| rower.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| Also concept2 owner. I think it's a miss not having some
| offering for existing rowers--these are not cheap devices,
| most people love their current one, and concept2's build
| quality has created a huge moat for them.
|
| Better to compete on software/integration instead of hardware
| as it makes your offering a niche player in an already niche
| market.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Good point. I think creating a solution that ties into
| existing rowers like the C2 isn't out of the question in
| the future.
| ebcase wrote:
| I'd be interested in this. I picked up a C2 last year,
| and have no need (or desire) to replace it. But
| supplementing it with something I can use on an iPad
| would be great.
| freerobby wrote:
| Check out Asensei for live coaching, or Kinomap for
| outdoor rows. Both connect to the PM5 on the C2.
| offtop5 wrote:
| Congratulations.
|
| While it's out of my budget , this looks like a great high margin
| business to be in .
|
| Is their any fear of getting undercut in this space
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Great question. Margins are strong so we do have wiggle room.
| But there will always be lower cost alternatives and we plan on
| being best in class for high intensity and competitive
| workouts. As long as our prices are in line with similar
| companies and we continue to create user experiences, I feel we
| should be in a good spot.
| roemance wrote:
| How is this software different than Ergatta
| (https://ergatta.com/)? Do you offer the ability to connect the
| tablet to another device like a Concept2 rower?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Ergatta is a great alternative but different. From a hardware
| standpoint they don't have variable resistance. Our
| electronically controlled resistance adds up to 100+ lbs of
| force. Our high-intensity content, which differentiates us,
| requires this and the reason why we opted to build our own
| rower. When it comes to content, Ergatta has gamified workouts,
| whereas we have actual video games like Brick Breaker, races
| against Olympic athletes, guided strength programs that
| automatically adjust the resistance and let you use the rower
| for more than just rowing; like bicep curls and dips.
| shmatt wrote:
| Apple is currently the only company in the fitness world that can
| afford to force hardware and software coupling. You are not
| Apple.
|
| Peloton, which you compare yourself to, allows me to use my Life
| Fitness bike with their platform, and they even charge me about
| 70% less than they charge their own bike buyers.
|
| Hopefully this will soon sink in, there is a huge market of
| people who already invested thousands in their workout gear, and
| all they need is your platform. Plus its always interesting to
| hear how usable the hardware is, if I stop paying or if your
| platform goes offline. Every company handles this a bit
| differently
| ADominic wrote:
| Was this always the case for Peloton though? They could expand
| to allow their platform to work on other equipment later but
| there might be enough early adopters to support hardware sales
| to start. Also, bikes are far more common first purchases for
| home exercise equipment so there are probably many more bikes
| collecting dust at home than rowing machines
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| You make some good points. A huge part of our experience is the
| electronically controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs
| of force. Our high-intensity games and strength content, which
| differentiates us, requires this and the reason why we opted to
| build our own rower instead of just an app or working with any
| rower.
| SamBam wrote:
| And yet so many rowers are saying that the electronically-
| controlled resistance doesn't really make sense in a rower,
| which should not be changing the resistance all the time.
| samkater wrote:
| We have a Water Rower. They have a Bluetooth module you can
| install to get data to other devices (phone, etc).
|
| The programs Aviron offers look cool, but I would never trade out
| a working rower for a new one just for the workout programs.
| Families like mine are probably part your target market, but I
| suspect our current rower will last 10+ years. If you could
| connect to existing rowing machines and have the programs display
| on a laptop or tablet, we would definitely give it a serious
| look!
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Water Rower is fantastic - really pretty. Thanks for the
| feedback. We completely understand :)
| alangibson wrote:
| This looks like a pretty mature product. Why did you choose to go
| through YC?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I think the team has done an amazing job at making it look like
| we are pretty mature. I can count everyone on two hands.
| alangibson wrote:
| I really feel your pain on learning the manufacturing
| landscape, especially the point about manufacturers not being
| motivated by money. I'm about to launch something much less
| complicated than yours and I don't know how many times I've
| yelled 'do these people not like money?' after hanging up the
| phone.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Yea. No joke. I literally offered $25K on top to push our
| delivery up 4 weeks (beats flying it all over). They felt
| so disrespected I was ashamed.
| alangibson wrote:
| I'm only dealing with European manufacturers, but I think
| it's the same everywhere. They're more worried about the
| downside of taking on a bad customer than picking up a
| little extra business.
| foreigner wrote:
| Are you aware "aviron" means "airplane" in Hebrew?
| doerig wrote:
| it also means "rowing" in french (the intended translation I
| assume)
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Exactly :) We are a Canadian company.
| [deleted]
| boringg wrote:
| Sounds cool.
|
| Can I sum it up as Aviron is the peloton of the community and
| Hydrow is the Zwift? The difference being Zwift caters to people
| who are already vested and more hardcore in some ways where as
| peloton is the general public who want to try and get a quick
| good workout?
|
| Also - if you are following the peloton model - how are you going
| to build out the celebrity following for your athletes? I think
| that is one of the key components of why people buy in.
|
| Product pricing - are you going lower cost than peloton as you
| could be considered a substitute product.
|
| Good luck on the journey!
| boringg wrote:
| Also please don't follow pelotons somewhat annoying business
| model and force people to shell out a lot for the hardware
| product and continue to force them on high monthlies.
|
| Am interested in your product though - quick high intensity
| workout.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I would reverse the two. Hydrow is closer to peloton. They both
| have instructor led classes. Our content is focused around
| shorter, intense workouts, in the form of video games, live
| races, and strength programs. Neither Hydrow or Aviron cater to
| the avid rower.
|
| Our team is much smaller than you think and so celebrity
| following isn't on the roadmap yet - but hopefully one day!
|
| We are slightly less expensive than Peloton now, but I wouldn't
| say we are their substitute. They are best in class when it
| comes to live instructors. We want to be best in class when it
| comes to high intensity video games, races, and other similar
| content.
| Rooster61 wrote:
| C2 owner here, and an ADHD sufferer as well. I've always utterly
| hated working out throughout my life as sitting on a machine or
| out running without a goal other than "work out to maintain
| health" bores me out of my mind. I keep it bearable right now by
| catching up on TV (the little bit of time I have to actually
| watch anything these days), but gamification I think would get me
| even more into it.
|
| I'd probably be interested in this product if it were able to be
| tied into my machine. That said, I don't think I'd actually be
| interested in the part that seems to be your impetus to make your
| own hardware platform (the variable resistance/strength
| training).
|
| I primarily use my machine for cardio, and to keep weight off,
| and to that end I do indeed follow an interval training approach.
| However, I don't play with the resistance. I simply increase my
| strokes per minute for certain intervals throughout the workout.
| I think its a bit too much of a sacrifice to throw out the
| quality and results of a proven platform just to implement that
| one set of functionality (which I personally would probably not
| even use).
|
| I'd rather see the capital raised put into making the software
| and user experience the best it possibly could be rather than
| being split between the software and an actual rowing machine.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for the feedback and good points. The good thing is the
| hardware is done and we're focused exclusively on the content.
| We try to pump out 10-20 new workout options every 4-6 weeks.
| thehappypm wrote:
| I struggle with this too. A bit of a sidebar but hiking is by
| far my favorite form of cardio. Constant stimulation, changing
| scenery.
| freerobby wrote:
| Strong +1 to every part of this... except that I don't even
| have ADHD and still find exercise mind-numbingly boring. :)
|
| Like you, Alex, and many others, I am not a "rower" but I do
| use a rower at home to stay in shape with minimal time spent
| doing so.
|
| I also use a C2 and am hesitant to move off of it. I use a few
| connected rowing apps, mostly Asensei and Kinomap. They don't
| deliver a Peloton level of experience but they are good enough
| to stay motivated and there is no vendor lock-in on the
| hardware side, which is important to me as this is a nascent
| industry and I don't believe that all entrants will be winners.
|
| While I have no interest whatsoever in buying another hardware
| platform, I would gladly pay $40/mo for an amazing software
| platform for the C2.
| FanaHOVA wrote:
| These connected fitness products will need cross-play soon if
| more start coming out :)
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| That would be pretty sweet :)
| bwb wrote:
| I've always heard you can hurt yourself badly if your form isn't
| perfect, esp your back. True? If so, how do you help people
| maintain good form and not screw up their back?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Like with any workout injuries are always a possibility. We do
| our best to mitigate this with instructional videos for novice
| users and automated feedback (for example when the user is
| going too fast). That being said, stationary rowing machines,
| found in gyms or homes are not generally associated with a high
| risk for injuries.
| bwb wrote:
| good to know, i always heard the other bit...
| EamonnMR wrote:
| Rowing is my favorite form of excercise, so this is an exciting
| product. I'm always telling myself I'll get a Concept2 when I can
| afford one (right now I have a cobbled together combination of
| two discount machines.) Can you compare your product to C2's
| offering? Exciting to see innovation in the rowing space-it feels
| pretty monopolized right now.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Great question. Like many people in the thread have already
| mentioned the C2 is a great, solid product. Where we feel we
| are different is the focus on high intensity interval training
| (HIIT)- our content (fully animated video games, races against
| olympians or the Aviron community and guided strength programs)
| works along with the resistance of the machine to provide a
| solid option for at home HIIT. If you're looking for visuals,
| competition, and variety Aviron can be a good fit.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-01-25 23:00 UTC)