[HN Gopher] Tesla's charging stations left other manufacturers i... ___________________________________________________________________ Tesla's charging stations left other manufacturers in the dust Author : apress Score : 143 points Date : 2021-01-27 16:33 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (hbr.org) (TXT) w3m dump (hbr.org) | maxerickson wrote: | Tesla currently advertises having more than 20,000 Supercharger | stations (across 2000 locations). I think that is the global | number. | | That represents a substantial lead, and as others are commenting, | they combine it with a nice user experience. I don't see how it | will be particularly durable though, there isn't really a | bottleneck for deployments of other charge stations, just not a | lot of investment in it. Fixing the experience is harder, but gas | stations provide a hint that other parties will at least get it | down to swiping a card. | arcticfox wrote: | For a detailed breakdown of superchargers, see | https://supercharge.info/charts | | The Supercharger network is why I bought a Tesla, and it's one | of the few reasons I think Tesla might truly be able to put a | lot of distance between themselves and rivals. They are | building it at a good clip, and were doing it well even prior | to the enormous amount of capital they now have access to. | coding123 wrote: | Obligatory | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec-LrW1tSHQ | stcredzero wrote: | I'm now a Model 3 owner, but back when I had the Fiat 500e, I was | actually surprised at how widespread Chargepoint chargers were in | the Bay Area. The experience with those isn't 100% seamless. I'd | wave an RFID card, and most of the time, it would work after a | 5-15 second pause. I'd occasionally encounter a broken charge | plug that wouldn't release, or an otherwise malfunctioning | charger. | | Even with the piddling 87 mile range of the 500e, I'd still drive | from SF to San Jose on a regular basis. I could pretty much | depend on the availability of Chargepoint chargers in the South | Bay. | | I even went to an event near San Rafael once, and found that the | charger at the school was _free_! | drivebycomment wrote: | I second this. I've been driving various non-Tesla EVs over the | past 7+ years and during that time, Chargepoint has become | quite good and widely available. Phone RFID integration and | their "waiting queue" feature have been very useful additions. | PaulWaldman wrote: | Is there a reason the current gas stations, that aren't | integrated with refineries, aren't making the investment for | charging stations? | | I don't know if this is true or not, but my understanding is that | of their revenue, they make a disproportionate amount of the | their profits from convenience stores. Keeping vehicles plugged | in for extended periods of time would also make EV owners more | likely to venture into the store to buy a drink or snack. | gok wrote: | Gas stations are not really a good place for charging. | | The cool thing about charging stations is that you can put them | almost anywhere there's already some parking. They don't need | huge underground tanks, or space for tanker trunks to make | deliveries, or even really a lot of space for cars to maneuver | around. On the other hand, for road trips they do need to be a | place you'd want to spend 30 minutes or so, which means you | want better shopping and entertainment than the average gas | station store can offer. So some place like a mall or big box | store is going to be a better place than a gas station. | hocuspocus wrote: | The infrastructure for fast charging is expensive and the ROI | isn't obvious, EVs being charged at home/work most of the time. | notJim wrote: | My idea for a charging business would be an upscale coffee | shop/fast casual restaurant. Like gas stations, you'd make most | of your money selling food/drinks. Could it work? | colordrops wrote: | I thought they are associated with oil companies. E.g. Texaco | and Chevron are definitely oil companies. | hvjackson wrote: | I'm not sure the "gas station on every corner" model is going | to transition to the EV world. First of all many people will do | the bulk of their charging at home, so paying for a charge will | be mostly limited to long distance road trips, etc. It's not | something you necessarily need to do at all during your regular | commute or running errands around town. | | Second, even with a fast DC charger it still takes 20-60 | minutes to get a useful amount of charge. That's a lot longer | than you need to run into a convenient store to buy a coffee or | whatever. It makes more sense to put these chargers where | people will naturally be parked longer: office buildings, | restaurants, highway service plazas, etc. | Artlav wrote: | Hm, the US tend to have "home" defined as a stand along house | with a garage/land plot, which makes it possible to have a | charger at home. | | In most of the world city people live in flats/apartments, | where you can't really do that. | | So i don't see how you can avoid "gas station on every | corner" model. | hvjackson wrote: | Fair enough, I used "home" but it could just as easily be | anywhere else the car is stored: garage, office building, | even public streets maybe. Going to a filling station is | just too slow to be the main way to charge. No EV owner | wants to dedicate 30 minutes a week twiddling their thumbs | while the car charges. I just can't see a dedicated filling | station will be part of the regular routine for most EV | owners the way it necessarily is for gas cars. | labcomputer wrote: | Honestly, as someone who has owned and driven an EV for the | better part of a decade, L1 home charging has been | sufficient most of the time. That uses the same type of | 120V plug that you'd use for a coffee maker, and it's | enough for about 40 miles of range while you sleep. | | With a modern long-range EV, nightly L1 charging plus | occasional DCFC or L2 charging would meet the driving needs | of almost everyone. | | So the solution is very simple: Just install L1 EVSEs | everwhere. Streetlights have extra capacity now that LED | bulbs are in vogue, so putting L1 charging next to every | on-street parking space isn't even a technical challenge. | Artlav wrote: | So... that's just "gas station on every corner" model | taken to it's extreme, no? | yurishimo wrote: | This could actually work pretty well. It would add more | complexity to building parking lots, and possibly | retrofits, but running junction boxes out to every | parking space should be possible. | | It can start small as well, maybe converting 10% of | spaces and then expanding as adoption ramps up. You run | into the grocery store for an hour, and you get a couple | of miles. Park at work and get some more, then plug it in | when you get home. I'm envisioning something like a | retractable cable that you can pull out to your car, but | maybe I'm overthinking the desire for theft of these | cables. | codefined wrote: | Presumably you have "some place" where you store your car | when you're not using it. It makes sense to put a charger | there, as opposed to on the block corner. | Artlav wrote: | Which will be the job for the same people that put up | buildings on block corners, rather than something you do | yourself. | jonas21 wrote: | In the U.S., the majority of people drive to work, so even | if you don't have a place to charge at home, you can still | fully charge every weekday if your employer has chargers. | | Where I live, you see these all over the place: | | https://chargingforward.chargepoint.com/story/charging- | forwa... | | They also usually place them close to the building to | reduce the distance they have to wire, so that's a nice | side benefit. | gpm wrote: | Unlike with ICE cars, it's trivial to turn any parking spot | into a charging station for an EV. The model changes from | "expensive building with attendants on every corner" to "a | (120v/slow charging) plug at most parking spots". This is | _already_ the norm in northern communities where you need | to plug in ICE cars if you want them to start in the | morning. | | In apartments/flats you are usually parking in a dedicated | parking lot, that can be easily renovated to have spots | with a plug. Street parking in front of small houses will | likely gain parking meter like devices with extension | cords. | Artlav wrote: | > In apartments/flats you are usually parking in a | dedicated parking lot | | More like all over the nearby streets, but i get the | idea. | gpm wrote: | Downtown flats and apartments around here generally don't | have any streets that allow overnight parking, and do | generally have their own dedicated parking, but that | probably varies with location. | closeparen wrote: | Once people started building with cars in mind here, they | were building single family detached houses. Most | apartments, duplexes, 4-plexes, etc. were built in the | era of streetcars. | | We do have _some_ multifamily from the postwar era, but | it tends to be either very luxe (contemporary | gentrification) or very crappy (from when cities were for | poor people). The stately, comfortable, once-grand-but- | now-middle-class stock is all pre-automobile. | nickik wrote: | In Europe in cities you often have parking garages for a | whole bunch of buildings together. In such case you can | just have chargers there. | lastofthemojito wrote: | Fueling up an ICE car takes just a couple of minutes, so | typically a customer would dash into the convenience store, and | get something that requires zero preparation time (packaged | food, bottled drinks, etc) and leave. | | Battery charging times are getting faster, but if you're | stopping to charge an EV, I think you're there for at least 20 | minutes, bare minimum. Plenty of time to have someone make you | a latte, or a burrito, heck maybe get a quick massage. It's | probably too soon to know which sorts of services will best | complement electric charging stations, but I think there's a | good chance it'll end up looking somewhat different from the | typical current gas station convenience store, even once EVs | are more mainstream. | zaroth wrote: | Yes, generally you want the chargers to be somewhere where you | can go spend 30 minutes doing something else. So you put them | near grocery stores, or coffee shops, or a mall. | | Gas stations are typically not located within walking distance | of any kind of retail. They are set off a ways because they are | nasty, smelly business. No one hangs out at a gas station, you | run into the convenience store for maybe 60 seconds, and hate | it every second you're there. | | I would assume gas stations also have a fairly low electrical | draw, so not likely to be located near transmission lines. | Versus a mall or major retail outlet probably already has | decent transmission capacity to make adding an additional few | MWs for charging a lot easier. | ogre_codes wrote: | Gas stations suck. They are usually dirty and smell like | petrol. | | Aside from the overall grossness of gas stations, they are | generally poorly laid out for long term parking. Gas stations | need lots of room for cars to get in and out of stalls quickly | and usually only have a few spaces for short term parking in | front of the convenience store portion of the station. | | Adding charging centers to roadside restaurants and shopping | centers makes a ton more sense because the longer charging time | is highly compatible with having a place where there are | interesting things to do or rest and eat. | f154hfds wrote: | A local gas station chain to me - Sheetz - has been building | out Tesla charging stations for a while. | | https://csnews.com/sheetz-powers-its-electric-vehicle-chargi... | einarfd wrote: | The Norwegian branch of Circle K seems to be interested, and | they have put up a charging points at some of their locations. | | I've never tried the charging point at Circle K though, they | might be usable or they might not, at least they look like they | are looked after and not physical broken. | | But after trying some of the other brand of chargers, I've | largely given up on using any non Tesla fast charger. I will | use non Tesla ones in a pinch. But if I do, my expectation is | worse user experience, slower charging and more expensive, | which does seem like somewhat of a bad deal. | DFHippie wrote: | Low margin business without the capital to invest? | aynyc wrote: | One thing I don't understand is why car makers are having hard | time building charging network. They already have one, it's | called dealerships! Give dealerships incentive to build charging | stations for their EV cars right on their properties. Then add | charging stations by highways, gas stations. Oil companies will | likely join the movement to offer incentives to gas station. | klondike_ wrote: | Dealerships are not interested in selling and servicing | electric cars because of the low margins. Dealerships make most | of their money off of services and repairs, which will be less | frequent with EVs. | mikestew wrote: | Nissan advertised that when they released the Leaf: "charge at | Nissan dealers". They apparently forgot to tell the dealers, | because one's experience can be...mixed, according to online | reports. I can't confirm one way or another as I don't think | I've ever tried to get a charge from a dealer. | pat2man wrote: | I believe they are in the process of doing just that: | https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/04/about-150-cadillac-dealers-t... | cavisne wrote: | they already tried that. But dealers dont have food options or | public restrooms that are open outside business hours. | greedo wrote: | Dealerships are really in an adversarial relationship with | their parent automakers on this. They make little money off of | EVs, yet have to train their staff on repairs/maintenance. | akira2501 wrote: | Dealerships in the US are often positioned to take advantage of | tax laws, which means they're often placed outside of city | limits in an inconvenient and less-traveled area that doesn't | have to pay the extra 1-2% city sales tax on the vehicles. | | Good for pricing, terrible for convenience. | OliverJones wrote: | NEWS FLASH! Tesla pours capital into building infrastructure to | deploy vast fleet of BEVs! | | Details in Harvard Business Review! | | This would have been news in 2014 or so. That's when Tesla's | efforts to get this right started being obvious. I'm glad HBR | caught up to it, even if they're years late to the party. | | Telsa is getting it right. For their Superchargers, they have | excellent location-scouting crews, permitting crews, construction | crews, alliance-building crews, and maintenance crews. Not to | mention the actual equipment, centrally monitored. It's no simple | thing to convince rural convenience store operators and building | inspectors to install electrical equipment that draws more than a | megawatt. | | Most people other than Tesla customers don't know this: they | lined up a world-wide network of electricians trained to install | those 40a x 240v connectors at peoples' homes and businesses. | | They must have imbibed Geoffrey Moore's "Crossing the Chasm." | Until the Model 3 started appearing in 2017, their customers were | classic early adopters. (I was one.) They managed to turn their | early vehicles into Veblen goods (where demand goes up as price | goes up). That would not have worked without the infrastructure | they built. (I didn't buy Ludicrous Mode: it cost an extra US$15K | and I would have used it once or twice for the lulz. But I did | buy a big battery.) | | If Tesla's mission were merely to sell cars, they would have | failed. Many years ago. | | Today's bafflement for me: do electric grid operators understand | what's happening in the next thirty years? Do they know they're | going to win almost all the business of fuel stations? Are they | preparing for that? If so, they're awful quiet about it. | foepys wrote: | Why should they really care? They are selling the electricity | and access to the grid anyways. Better to sell the shovels than | trying to find gold. Investing in an expensive large-scale | charger infrastructure could very easily go wrong and they | might not get a return from because of competition. | edaemon wrote: | This article leaves out a lot of information. | | > _...none of the major incumbent automakers seems to pose much | of a threat to market leader Tesla, which has become nearly | synonymous with EVs._ | | This is only true in the US. In Europe VW and Renault have cut | into Tesla's lead, and in some countries VW just overtook Tesla | in vehicles sold. In 2020 the Renault Zoe outsold the Tesla Model | 3 in Europe. | | > _But imagine if, instead of investing tens of billions of | dollars in producing cars with no way to drive long distances | individually, Audi, GM, Ford, and the rest each spent just a | billion dollars to build a network of supercharging stations._ | | They have. BMW, Daimler, Ford, Hyundai, and VW collaborated to | build out the IONITY network. VW is also building Electrify | America (albeit as a result of Dieselgate). Non-Tesla DCFC | stations far outnumber the Tesla Superchargers now. | nickik wrote: | "In some markets" lots of things are true. | | In practice 28% of global EV sold are Tesla, and very large | numbers of the others are tiny city cars or very small cars | like the Zoe. | | In terms of BEV cars Tesla is the clear global market leader. | | > They have. BMW, Daimler, Ford, Hyundai, and VW collaborated | to build out the IONITY network. | | And they don't want to pay so the network is not that large and | doesn't grow very fast and of course its European network. | | Electrify America is doing better and as you said, its a | punishment for Dieselgate and that why they have capital. | edaemon wrote: | Well, that applies to this article. Tesla left other | automakers in the dust "in some markets" -- and by "some" I | really mean just one: the US. | | Tesla is the leader globally, but the article claims that | other automakers _aren 't even a threat_ to Tesla, and goes | further to argue that the reason they aren't a threat is | because they haven't built out charging networks. I don't see | how one can reach that conclusion when in the two biggest EV | markets, China and Europe, Tesla is no longer the market | leader. | | I'd also point out that Tesla doesn't have 28% of the global | EV market anymore (that was H1 2020). As of October 2020 | Tesla comprised 18% of 2020's global market [1]. Still the | clear leader, and almost the only contender in the US, but | globally other automakers are threatening their lead. | | [1]: https://electrek.co/2020/10/30/tesla-tsla-market-share- | globa... | Artlav wrote: | Makes it double sad that Chevy Volt got discontinued and no | similar designs were made. | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | > In North America, that amount would finance approximately 1,000 | locations with 10 charging stalls each. | | I don't think this author lives in the USA. 10,000 charging | stalls for a population of 330 million spread over millions of | square miles is.... pathetic. | | There would be perpetual lines to use v these 10,000 stalls | antihero wrote: | I'm not even a driver so I am a bit clueless. Are EV stations | seriously not standardised? i.e. Is it the conventional | equivalent of going to any petrol station and having to find a | fuel pump that isn't leaded/unleaded/diesel but is more like | trying to find the one that matches to your brand of car? This | seems absurd. | pornel wrote: | They're as standard as USB: there are a few different flavors | of cables, and wildly different speeds. | xeromal wrote: | I think the thing I hate the most about 3rd party chargers is | how many charger per the minute rather than kilowatt. Their | shitty charger can put out half the rated throughput but they | still make the same money | jsight wrote: | That is largely a function of state rules that make it hard | to charge $/KWh without falling under a different (and often | onerous) set of regulations. It doesn't have to be super | expensive this way, though. Both Tesla and Electrify America | offer decent per minute rates here. | | EVGo here is over twice as expensive and tends to | underperform on charge rate, depending on the state of | charge. Or at least I hope it improves at higher charge | levels... I think it is amperage limited like CHAdeMO. | vegardx wrote: | You can't effectively do that since the spot price per | kilowatt-hour changes drastically from every minute. The per | minute pricing reflects that, so you don't have to worry | about fluctuating prices. It also add a "tax" for "hogging" | the chargers, as the rate of which you're able to charge | drops significantly after some time. | | You're probably being gauged compared to the true cost per | kilowatt-hour, but that just mean there's room for more | competition. | xeromal wrote: | I understand that, but I'll take an average even at the | benefit of the distributor rather than per minute pricing. | Imagine if we had to pay for gas by per second. | jsight wrote: | There are standards, but like all standards there are multiple | to choose from and at least one major non-standard. In the US, | the big ones are Tesla, CCS, and CHAdeMO, in roughly that order | of popularity. Its a bit like Diesel vs E85 vs premium vs plus | vs regular, except with the added mix of having one branded | version. | | Tesla's is largely the result of getting this stuff figured out | back in 2012. Back then, standardization wasn't really an | option. | mohaine wrote: | They are standardized, but the standard (at least in the US) | was less than advanced so if you wanted things like a data | connection between the charger and the car you had to roll your | own. Without this you can't do things like: | | 1) Have 2 cars share capacity. The car will decide how much | wattage to draw so you have to limit each car to | supply/number_of_chargers so that you don't over draw your | supply. With data connection you have them share the available | wattage, allowing cars to pull what is currently available, | often this is more than supply/number_of_chargers as charger | will empty or underdrawing due to charge state. | | 2) Auto bill. Tesla chargers have NO interface other than the | plug. You literally just plug it in. | | This has changed now but Telsas have been pretty common for a | long time here. | u678u wrote: | Its like Apple. All the connectors are the same, except Tesla | which has its own standard. You can get adapters though. | robotresearcher wrote: | > 'can get adapters' | | An adapter to the generic standard (ChargePoint, etc) was | included with my Model 3. | secabeen wrote: | They are mostly standardized, but the UX still sucks. Tesla | takes care of all the billing on their backend, based on | vehicle VIN transmitted through the cable. All the other | vendors have to collect a credit card or identify the user | somehow, which is not as simple as it could be. | not2b wrote: | I'm confused. When I gas up my Prius I pay with a credit | card. It isn't hard. What's the problem with needing a credit | card to pay at a charging station? Requiring an app is | stupid, but inserting the card takes a few seconds. | | The other problems (limited locations and hours, broken | charging stations) are real ones, but I don't think this is. | jsight wrote: | The stations are unstaffed and card reader issues are | common. | aidenn0 wrote: | It's a "real problem" in the sense that it exists. GP | forgot "you need to be a member of our petrol club to fill | up" as an added issue. | | Some of this is due to the slow speed. If it took 45 | minutes to fill-up your car, then you might want to get a | notification of some sort if the pump shut off only 5 | minutes into filling. Really that could be solved by | punching in a phone number and getting an SMS though. | secabeen wrote: | None of the alternate charging solutions I've seen are just | swipe a credit card. They all want some way to notify you | back when your charge session is nearing completion, or if | you get unplugged unexpectedly. They also want the data on | your usage individually identified, so they can sell/mine | it. | | They do that with an app, or a fob or whatever, but it's | all way more involved than just swiping a card. | gameswithgo wrote: | there are standards for the plugs and adapters so you can | charge any given brand of car at most brands of chargers. | spiznnx wrote: | They are standardized, as far as the high power electronics go. | | But imagine having to install the "Chevron" app to pay to fuel | up at Chevron, no big billboards with the price visible from | the street (and prices wildly varying from free to $6/gal), | some gas stations billing by minute instead of by gallons, half | of the stations hidden in a dense parking lot/structure or "for | retail customers only" and 1/10 pumps in the US being out of | order. | mFixman wrote: | So the only thing that makes a Tesla charging station | different from the rest is that they appear in the map of the | Tesla app? That sounds reasonable, but I don't understand how | it can be a "killer feature or Tesla" when Ford could just | show them in their electric cars. | nickik wrote: | Tesla have their own custom plug. They appear on the map in | the car and the car tells you if the station is full (or | partially broken) of people and potentially re-routes you. | Tesla charge location also usually have multiple very high | performance chargers. Tesla chargers are usually higher at | charging that the waste majority of other chargers. Payment | is fully integrated with your Tesla account. | | So its drive in, plug in, wait, plug out and drive away. | | Pretty much non of that works consistently for other | networks and the are usually slower and you have to spend | there longer as well. | | There are standards for the plug, standards, Europe is well | standardized, US a bit less, China is a bigger mess. | Important to note however, the plug is standard, the | payment system on the other hand is not. Or rather it is | partially standardized but the software compatibility might | not actually work very well or is simply not implemented at | all. | guerby wrote: | Everyone knows that at some point non Tesla charging stations | will catch up. | | But I'm still surprised it has not happened yet. | | Volkswagen is starting to sell lots of long distance capable EV | like id.3 and id.4 (at least in Europe) with absolutely zero | visible/working plan to provide their customer reliable fast | charging everywhere they need (directly or via a partner | network). | | And Renault still hasn't made a car with more than 50 kW charging | (and even that is a paying option...). Well at least their | customer don't need long distance fast charging network ... | tenacious_tuna wrote: | I've said this to loads of people, but the charging infra is 1/3 | of the Tesla "killer app" EV experience. | | There were (in my view) three core "problems" facing mass EV | adoption that Tesla has engaged with and solved very well. | | First is the perception that EVs (and their cousins/progenitors, | hybrids) were slow, terribly boring cards. I think this was | largely perpetuated by the rise of the Prius. Tesla solved this | by building true performance cars, using the raw torque power of | their EVs to assuage any concerns around performance and handling | people could have. | | Second is the concern around "fueling", especially on road trips. | This is obviously addressed by how stupid-easy the supercharging | network is to use. I don't think any other auto manufacturer will | become a true competitor to Tesla until similarly extensive | networks are built out by Ford, GM, etc. | | Third is the paradigm-shift of the minimalist controls and the | spaceship-like display. There are absolutely drawbacks to this-- | Mazda, for one, refuses to have touchscreens in their cars | anymore due to safety concerns, and there are instances in my | Model 3 where I dearly wish for a physical control. But there's | something incredible about sitting in a modern vehicle and not | being faced with a baffling array of buttons and dials, and | having nothing between you and the road. | | The combination of these makes for a stellar experience with the | vehicle, and for EVs in general. | worldsayshi wrote: | It's ridiculously wasteful to force every carmaker to build | their own charging stations. Here regulators may have to step | in to force them to find a standard and a charging market. | ssheth wrote: | There is an "overarching" standard now .. CCS and a couple of | older standards .. J1772 and ChaDeMo .. but when Tesla was | getting started making chargers, there was no critical mass | around any standards so they ended up creating their own. | worldsayshi wrote: | Are they sharing that standard or putting up obstacles | around it? | labcomputer wrote: | Not only was there no critical mass... CCS network didn't | even _exist_ until after Tesla had already deployed half a | dozen Superchargers in California. And most of the CCS | stations deployed before about 2017 /2018 were the 50kW | variety (in comparison to the 120kW Superchargers of the | time). | 908B64B197 wrote: | Just like when the EU tried to legislate micro-usb | everywhere. | Kranar wrote: | A charging station isn't like a full blown gas station with | safety critical infrastructure and operations staffing it. A | charging station is mostly a parking lot space with some | electronics, a cable and some signage featuring a company | logo. | | The amount of "waste" amounts the the plastic used to display | said logo and some rubber and copper. The actual electricity | itself and the infrastructure used to deliver that | electricity is already standardized and shared among not only | all electric car companies, but everyone in the area period. | tenacious_tuna wrote: | There could be waste in terms of duplicated effort. If Ford | has charging stations that cover, e.g., the Rockies very | well, it'd be "wasteful" to force Tesla to have to build | out an identical network to cover the same region. (Where | "force" is accomplished by incompatible cables, or | communication changes, or some other issue.) | | If companies can share infrastructure, then they all will | benefit from each other improving their own networks. Ford | adding stations that can be used by other EVs will further | improve the quality of life for _all_ EVs. | Kranar wrote: | They do share infrastructure, the actual infrastructure | needed to setup a charging station in the Rockies isn't | in the signage and some fairly basic electronic | components, it's in how you get the electricity to the | Rockies. That will be shared by all car companies and | isn't something the car companies themselves manage. | | That said, I think that in many cases they should share | space. For example on a crowded downtown street, there | should be standardized charging stations that can | accommodate multiple types of cars. It would be annoying | to have one parking spot for Tesla, another for GM, | another for Ford. But that's not a question of waste or | resourcefulness and I don't think that needs a government | to step in to regulate either. | | Tesla's, along with pretty much all electric cars, | support standardized charging as a matter of convenience | to the user. | fblp wrote: | Suggested improvement: To be eligible for government electric | car subsidies the car maker should meet certain standards for | their chargers and charging stations that enable | interoperability and a more competitive market. | smileysteve wrote: | This timing works well as regulatory capture as Tesla has | used up their us subsidies | nickik wrote: | First of all, nobody is forcing anybody. Those manufactures | that want to use a standard are free to use one. | | This is intact what happened, the waste majority is | standardized and that mostly without regulation. | | Market forces are driving standardization. Tesla however is | special because they have in incredibly dominate position in | the market and they don't have to relay on 3rd parties | creating charging stations. | | They can offer their costumers a premium experience and | support their own growth. Eventually once charging is more | universally available Tesla can simply expand to allow others | to charge there and make a lot of money. | | Tesla has invested huge amount of money and this is their | reward. Not sure why regulation needs to come in and force | everybody to do things. Specially when early on a lot of | things were not very clear. Also, government regulation | defined API standards for payments are usually terrible. | worldsayshi wrote: | > Eventually once charging is more universally available | | What if Tesla ends up with more or less a monopoly? | | > Tesla can simply expand to allow others to charge there | and make a lot of money. | | But will they? | | I agree that it's fair that Tesla gets return on their | investment. But if we end up with a situation where | infrastructure is disjointed or where it's infeasible for | anyone else to launch any competetition then Tesla have | gained a market position that might be "fair" to them but | unfair to everyone else. | oneplane wrote: | It's also ridiculous that some private company has to stamp | out a good charging setup because nobody else will, but then | has to let others use it. Granted, it would be nice if | everyone would play together, but they didn't and they don't. | | Some heavy-handed top-down inter-organisational group with | top-down design-by-committee ideas is going to be a shitshow | too, so now the question becomes: what IS a good solution | going to look like? | [deleted] | zippergz wrote: | A lot of this is obviously just personal preference, but the | spaceship-like display is the exact reason (well, not the only | reason, but a big and emblematic one) that I don't want a | Tesla. I have driven them. I do not like the interface. I want | a "regular car" that happens to be electric, not something | that's trying to be a smartphone on wheels. | tenacious_tuna wrote: | And that's absolutely okay! I totally get not wanting that | experience, and I'm glad that we're at a point with EV | development that the styles are proliferating so people have | those choices. | | Personally I just love the disruption Tesla has caused to the | "idea" of a car and its interface. I hope it'll encourage | other car manufacturers to reconsider how they do their | interfaces--even if they don't consolidate all their controls | into the touchscreen, I hope at the very least the media | systems in cars start being of higher-quality, now that | people see what's possible. | yardie wrote: | I tested the Model Y and this was my impression as well. | Everything about the car was great but the human factor. I | need my dashboard at eyelevel to the windshield, not down and | to my right. I need more controls that do a few things. Not | few controls that try to do too many things. They literally | took decades of research in automotive human factors research | and dumped it in the trash. And now they are going to have to | discover those lessons all over again. | vondur wrote: | Can you use other electric vehicles at a Tesla charging | station? I'm thinking of getting as used Bolt. I'd mainly use | it for driving around town and back and forth to work where | they do have really cheap charging available. But it'd be nice | to have more options when doing some longer trips. | tenacious_tuna wrote: | Not in the US, at least. The US supercharger connectors are | Tesla-proprietary. In the US, the EU forced Tesla to join the | CCS standard. | | Notably, the CCS standard didn't exist when Tesla began | rolling out their infrastructure. And I _think_ Tesla open- | sourced the patents for their DC charging in the hope that | folks would standardize on their technology, but I don 't | know that they ever had plans to allow non-Tesla vehicles t o | use their charging network. | | I also don't know if Europe CCS Tesla chargers can be used by | non-teslas, but I would assume that's the case--otherwise, | what's the point of the standardization? | | At any rate, I do hope to see other manufactures push for a | unified charging network, explicitly so that non-Tesla EVs | can experience the same luxuries as first party vehicles. | judge2020 wrote: | > but I don't know that they ever had plans to allow non- | Tesla vehicles t o use their charging network. | | In secret, probably not without sharing the cost of | building out superchargers, but there have been past | statements by EM saying they'd allow other manufacturers to | use the network. | | https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1340978686212800513?s=2 | 0 (2020) | | https://chargedevs.com/newswire/elon-musk-tesla-is-in- | talks-... (2015) | | There also is indeed another auto-maker integrating Tesla | chargers called Aptera. | https://insideevs.com/news/458607/aptera-using-tesla- | chargin... | doanerock wrote: | Cool now just stop using a non standard connector if you actually | cared about the environment. Tesla's sold in Europe come with | CCS2, let's just make a standard that all electric cars have the | change charge port. | doanerock wrote: | https://techau.com.au/tesla-supercharger-ccs2-upgrades-are-h... | josefresco wrote: | Anecdotally I travel frequently to rural areas in the northeast | USA. We stopped recently at a truck stop for gas and lo and | behold, among the semis, huge propane/oil fuel tanks and farm | feed supply store, there was a Supercharging station. Keep in | mind this station is hundreds of miles from any substantial city, | and maybe 75 miles from a large town. | rstupek wrote: | Tesla likes to put superchargers on major highway routes in | between cities so you can stop for 15 minutes and get topped | off on your way | mjamesaustin wrote: | As a Tesla owner, I tried using a third-party charging station | once just to see what it was like. I ended up leaving and going | to the closest supercharger instead because of how laughably bad | the experience was. | | Tesla has done a phenomenal job making it easy and convenient to | own and drive an EV. Other automakers are trying to catch up on | range and acceleration, but if they really want to compete they | need to consider the entire user experience. | 1234letshaveatw wrote: | Does your user experience rating take into account | interoperability (or lack thereof of e.g superchargers) and | service center and replacement part availability? | jsight wrote: | I'm going to guess it does and is graded against his own | personal experience with other vehicles. | 1234letshaveatw wrote: | I'm going to guess it doesn't- as the supercharging network | is a closed platform which is a problem for any vehicle | other than a Tesla | mynameisvlad wrote: | Why would a Tesla owner care about interoperability? The | supercharger network is clearly a selling point for Tesla. | Why do they need to allow access to other manufacturers? Why | would they even want to do that? | | I mean, this whole article is about how Tesla invested in a | charging infrastructure that is leaps and bounds above all | competitors. The whole point is that Tesla decided that was a | requirement before scaling up production and it is a key | reason why people choose their EVs over the competition. | netsharc wrote: | Huh, true, if Tesla allowed other cars to use the | Supercharger, then the chances of a Tesla owner arriving to | a fully occupied Supercharger location (full of all kinds | of car brands) would increase quite a lot. | | But if Elon was serious about what he said about climate, | and wanting to turn the car industry electric, he should do | exactly that, so that more people get electric cars, | regardless of the brand. | oneplane wrote: | Elon is likely playing a longer game, just like the 'make | a luxury car', 'make a better slightly cheaper car', | 'make a normal car' line of thought where you hope to | earn enough at each stage to make the whole factory, cell | production, car, production, charging network, | governmental interaction viable (economically, | politically, environmentally, socially). | | After it's possible to do it and not lose everything in | the process, then you can do the "let's team up with the | competition that didn't thing of this themselves"-game. | Because that is what it boils down to: before the whole | Tesla and Musk thing it was not really a thing to have a | good all-electric car experience. Heck, even a good | software experience wasn't available (in any car). It | takes quite a beating for the other car manufacturers the | get off of their collective asses en start doing | something new. (and no, creating a different design isn't | new, they have been re-designing for decades - new would | be a paradigm shift or beginnings of a shift) | mapmap wrote: | What was bad about it? | djrogers wrote: | Not OP, but 3rd party chargers often: | | 1) require a new app to be installed 2) require you to create | an account and add your credit card info 3) are broken 4) | work, but charge slower than they should | filoleg wrote: | While a minor thing, I wanted to add to this, even when | everything works properly and on the first try with third | party chargers, you gotta pull out your phone and open the | app (or use it as an Apple Wallet card, if the charging | station supports it) to activate the charger and start the | whole charging process. | | As opposed to superchargers, where you literally just plug | the charger in and that's it, everything is handled for | you. | gameswithgo wrote: | Who the heck thought an app was a good idea? Complete non | starter for me. | jsight wrote: | I think they are optional in general, but often more | reliable. These locations are unstaffed and often | directly exposed to the elements. The cardreaders don't | seem to hold up well. | Symbiote wrote: | They should be able to accept contactless cards only, | without a PIN. Plenty of contactless-card vending | machines (drinks etc) and ticket machines (train tickets | etc) in Asia and Europe cope with the weather. | secabeen wrote: | It's twofold. One, they want some way to notify you back | when your charge session is nearing completion, or if you | get unplugged unexpectedly. Two, they want the data on | your usage individually identified, so they can sell/mine | it. | gameswithgo wrote: | Ok that is a good point, optional app integration is | sensible. | waiseristy wrote: | They really should just call your phone, I can't think of | a single other long-wait activity that forces you to | install spyware. Oil changes, doctor / dentist | appointments, furniture delivery, etc. They all just give | you a call | secabeen wrote: | Many people don't want to give their SMS-capable number | to a random charging station in another state. I don't | mind giving my number to my doctor, but a charging | station is a different risk profile. | djrogers wrote: | Frankly I'd rather install an app on my iPhone than give | the company my phone number. At least with an app I can | deny location, contacts, and all other access. | waiseristy wrote: | What makes you think that company XYZ will let you use | their app if you deny location, contact, etc. access? | BoorishBears wrote: | Just because you want a call doesn't mean everyone else | does. | | I'd much rather have an app notify me than an automated | phone call, I (and most people I know) probably wouldn't | even pick it up. | | - | | I can uninstall an app, I can't ungive someone my phone | number. | waiseristy wrote: | To each their own! I can not stand having random apps | installed on my phone. They all eventually turn into | notification spamming spyware. I get spam phone calls all | the time anyway, have the charging station call / text me | and leave me a message instead | kurthr wrote: | Yes, unless you're using the newest and rarest non- | superchargers, you're looking at 8-14kW vs 50-150kW. Also | there are 3 or more different ones (so one app isn't | enough) and because they take so long to charge people | often park for extended (e.g. 4+ hours) periods. They | border on useless, unless they happen to be where you work | or live, if what you're looking for is a quick fill-up. | cogman10 wrote: | Here's the tesla experience. | | Pull into charge, plug in the car, start charging. | | Here's the competition. | | Pull into charge, plug in the car, Maybe swipe a credit if | you are lucky and start charging. Likely, you need to install | a 3rd party app first then you need to feed that app your CC | information and then you need to tell that app a station | number to activate. You better hope there's good internet | because if there's not you might not be able to charge. | | Further, for stations that do take a credit card or tap and | pay. It's like 50/50 on whether or not it will actually go | through. Usually it takes a crazy long time to actually | validate the card number before charging (Like, I've waited | 10 minutes before for a charge to start!). | labcomputer wrote: | I've also noticed that USA-based users of CCS chargers | often report needing to fiddle with the plug to get the car | to charge. | | Most of the reports I've seen are drivers of the e-Tron, | Bolt and Setec CCS (for Tesla) adapter. They often report | needing to put pressure on the handle while the station is | handshaking with the car to avoid spurious ground isolation | faults and/or communication errors. I don't recall reading | anything similar with Teslas at Superchargers. | | Given that this happens across manufacturers, I'm inclined | to think that it is either a design flaw with CCS or a not- | clearly-specified part of the CCS spec. | clintonb wrote: | The prices I've seen are also slightly more expensive than | Superchargers. | thatfrenchguy wrote: | EA is at $0.31 a kw in California, just slightly cheaper | than Superchargers in California which are slightly above | the national average. | goshx wrote: | You forgot to mention they usually cost 2x what the | supercharger costs and charge super slow. | TLightful wrote: | So, swipe a credit card. Install an app. Sorry, that's not | ideal ... but that doesn't seem to be a deal breaker. | | Particularly regarding the app. Do I complain that I need | to install Sonos and Prime Music and Apple Play once to do | what I want? | filoleg wrote: | >Do I complain that I need to install Sonos and Prime | Music and Apple Play once to do what I want? | | No, because there is no easily available alternative to | this that gets rid of those pain points in you example. | While for EVs, there is. Hence the whole disappointment. | | It is much more difficult to accept inconveniences, when | you have an option available that shows you that it is | possible to perform the exact same functions, but without | dealing with those inconveniences. | xeromal wrote: | Another doozie is that 3rd party chargers are often in | garages in the city and you lose cell service meaning the | app doesn't even work. lol. I've had that happen more | times than I care to count when I use my chademo charger | for my tesla. | mynameisvlad wrote: | I mean, the parent comment is explicitly comparing the | experiences. When the comparison is between that and | literally just plugging in and immediately starting to | charge, that is a pretty big deal. | | It's not just one time, it's every time you do a larger | road trip. That's very much a case of death by a thousand | cuts. | ncallaway wrote: | Do you have to install an app when you get gas from Shell | or BP? No. | | Also, you seem to have only picked on part of the | inconvenience given that this exists: | | > Like, I've waited 10 minutes before for a charge to | start! | | Putting a hard dependence on someone having a smart | phone, and reliable internet in order to get gas or | charge their car is a ludicrous step backwards in user | experience compared to either the (described) Tesla | experience or filling your car with gas. | bdamm wrote: | The worst part of this is taking the time to get the app | all settled (hope they don't need to mail you a | membership card!) and then find out that the charger is | broken or slower than advertised. The state of things for | non-Tesla charging is horrendous right now. Mostly thanks | to big oil's attempt to corrupt every EV player ever, | from the standards to the permitting to the carmakers. | Now they're trying to own the space but they're faced | with owning their own enormous mess. A tragedy of modern | proportions. | umvi wrote: | You forgot: | | Look up nearest charge station on chargepoint. Pull into | charge, ICE car is parked there. Wait indefinitely or look | for another charge. | jackson1442 wrote: | My personal worst experience was pulling into an | ElectrifyAmerica station and finding that the only charger | working was charging at about half the speed it should have | been. They operate on a pay-by-the-minute scheme so it not | only took longer but it also cost more! | | EA chargers also put you in a price tier based on how much | energy your car can _accept_, meaning we were paying the | 75kWh price for 30kWh of actual acceptance. | | Fortunately after talking to support for several minutes | they rebooted all of the chargers and one of them charged | at a more reasonable speed (but still not the full 75kWh we | wanted), and they comped the charge at that machine. | thatfrenchguy wrote: | They've fixed this btw sometime in 2020, they charge | $0.31 per kw now. | FrojoS wrote: | Kw is power. Do you mean kwh? | mohaine wrote: | You forgot that you can route to a supercharger and it will | pre-condition the batter for charging so it is faster. | Also, it will show you how full the charger is, directly | from the app. | ethbr0 wrote: | Hadn't heard of this. Is it basically sloshing remaining | charge around the available individual cells / packs to | optimize for charge time? | cogman10 wrote: | It's getting the cell temperature correct usually by | heating up the cells. | ggreer wrote: | It warms the battery so that it can charge faster. A cold | battery can't charge/discharge as quickly. | slg wrote: | Then if and when you finally get through all that, you are | likely charging at a much slower speed than a Supercharger. | | Using a Supercharger is even easier and more seamless than | refueling with gas. Other EV chargers are generally much | worse than gas. I hope they get there eventually, but right | now it is a night and day difference in my experience. | cogman10 wrote: | Agreed. I don't care too much about the charge time or | cost myself as even with the hiked rates, charging is | generally comparable or cheaper than a gas fill up (which | only strikes on road trips for me). | | What I really care about is how much time I'm interacting | with the charge equipment. It sucks to be standing | outside in the freezing cold waiting for your card to | maybe get accepted only to find out that for some dumb | reason the machine decides to decline it (forcing you to | use an app which you likely don't have). | | There's no reason all EV charging can't be a better | experience than gas charging. There's already a data line | established when you plug in (Both CCS and Chademo have | data lines) so it should be beyond trivial for there to | be a standard payment scheme (It should have existed from | the start). | beervirus wrote: | It's easier and more seamless, but it's also a lot slower | to fill up. I guess that's why the car has Netflix... | cogman10 wrote: | TBH, the charge time hasn't really bothered me. I've got | a phone which I can surf the internet on or netflix in | the car. Most charging spots are usually near enough to | food or bathrooms so I can generally grab something to | eat or use restrooms. | | If you plan things out well, you generally don't end up | waiting too long for fast charging. | mint2 wrote: | And don't forget the price is way too high. I don't know | how much a Tesla charger charges, but the 3rd party ones | I've looked at are ridiculous. | jmpman wrote: | Many times the third party chargers are broken, or | vandalized. Some have screens which are completely unreadable | after a few years in the sun. They're sited in inconvenient | spots, such as mall parking lots, which have nothing open | after 9pm. | | That being said, the Tesla charging network is far from | perfect. Check to see how many US National Parks you can | practically visit with a Tesla. Carlsbad Caverns? Nope. North | Rim of the Grand Canyon? Barely. | whoisburbansky wrote: | Apparently this reddit post from three years ago doesn't | think so: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/6oq | 1wb/an_upda.... Looks like only four National Parks aren't | (as of three years ago) within round trip distance of a | Supercharger, and Carlsbad isn't one of them. | gameswithgo wrote: | Some of those that are near the mid 250s would be risky, | especially as the car is likely to be loaded down with | above average mass, maybe some bikes or a roof luggage | unit hurting aero. Guess you could drive slow. | ghaff wrote: | Furthermore, people often don't drive to a national park, | drive around a bit, and head back. When I visit Death | Valley, I probably drive hundreds of miles within the | park. | jsight wrote: | Carlsbad caverns is ~100 miles from the nearest | supercharger. It wouldn't be a comfortable round trip | even with a Y Long Range. With a standard range vehicle, | it is not doable. | icelancer wrote: | > third party chargers are broken, or vandalized | | The Chargepoint / third-party ones in Seattle have almost | universally destroyed screens by vandals. | pornel wrote: | Chargers have the same quality and reliability as a free | public WiFi. Often broken, slow, difficult to activate, and | nobody cares. | | The market is fragmented. Chargers are run by different | companies. Very often you can't even use them, because they | don't accept card payments, and expect you to have a | membership, or at best use their custom shitty app. | GuB-42 wrote: | It is not that Tesla is good, it is that their competitors are | terrible. | | I knew that Tesla is all integrated, you don't even realize you | are paying. But I naively expected competition to work like a | gas station: insert your credit card to start charging, or, if | there is a counter, you can also go there and pay cash. | | But no, it doesn't work like that. There are competing | standards, you have to download apps and all of that nonsense. | | And why should automakers deal with charging stations? | Automakers have to come up with a standard plug, and it looks | like we are almost there with CCS2. Now it is up to the | charging stations to provide a better experience. Gas cars and | electric appliances do it right, why does it have to be worse | for electric cars? | dingaling wrote: | > Tesla has done a phenomenal job making it easy and convenient | to own and drive an EV. | | As they say, your mileage may vary. | | There are a total of three (3) Tesla charger stations in all of | Ireland. That's one location per 2.3 million people. | | For any locals wondering: Ballacolla, Birdhill, | Castlebellingham. | samch wrote: | To add to this, there is even more going on behind the scenes | in the Tesla Supercharging scenario that makes it so incredible | effective. A lot of it has to do with charger use optimization. | As sales of Teslas outpace growth of the Supercharger network, | optimization of the chargers is increasingly important. Much | like Apple, the fact that Tesla has fully integrated the entire | ecosystem (car, mobile app, Supercharger, payments) means that | they can also optimize the end-to-end process. For starters, | the in-car display shows where the nearest Superchargers are | and automatically plans your trip to incorporate them. After a | recent update, you can now see the real-time number of open | spaces. When the Tesla has its next navigation destination as a | Supercharger, the car will automatically begin conditioning the | battery pack (heating it, I believe) to allow the battery | chemistry to more readily accept the pending influx of current. | While the car is charging, the owner has constant visibility | and notification of progress via the mobile app. This helps the | owner plan to be back at the charger when the process has | completed. Finally, Tesla has implemented monetary penalties | for leaving a charged Tesla in charging spot after a certain | grace period. | | I suppose that what I'm trying to illustrate here is that the | overall level of optimization of the charging experience might | just remain unique to Tesla, enabling them to scale their user | base more efficiently than competitive, non-integrated | solutions. | jsight wrote: | To be fair, now (8 years after the first superchargers), | Electrify America supports plug and charge. Because of this, | the experience with the Mach-E is really close to that of | supercharging. | | There's still a gap, but its much smaller now and EA is even | ahead in some areas. | hnburnsy wrote: | See my other post in this thread specifically about the | Mustang and Electrify America. Looks like they have a way to | go. | jsight wrote: | Yeah, the recent cannonball run in a Taycan (Search Out of | Spec Motoring if you want to see the details) had some | similar issues. | | In particular, the Mach-E seems to be struggling with low | charge rates. However, that review is a press vehicle and | was technically preproduction. I have yet to see someone | knowledgeable going through the details with an actual | customer delivered vehicle. | thatfrenchguy wrote: | It's pretty obvious looking at their current volume of | charging that ElectrifyAmerica is clearly in beta mode | right now, targeting mostly enthusiasts. | | I've done ~40-50 sessions with them and I never got | stranded, but I've had to move the car to the next charger | like half the time. Good thing they're putting 4 to 8 | stalls at each station. | jsight wrote: | In my area, most of their installations are 4 stall. IMO, | this is a mistake, as they have already had multiple | holidays in which entire sites were taken offline. I | suspect that over time they will move to 8+ stall | installations as it greatly reduces the odds of a | complete site outage. | | The good thing is that they appear to be collecting data | in real time and seem to have really direct insight into | which manufacturers are consistently producing the | highest reliability. | rconti wrote: | How does EA station status work? Do the latest EVs have a way | of pulling realtime availability data from the network, or do | you have to use a phone app? (Or is it not possible at all?) | | IMO, more important than catching up to Tesla's headstart in | total number of chargers, is just to have reliable station | information before you arrive. This doesn't have to work on | every network-- just _enough_ of them to trust the system. I | won 't say it's trivial, but it should be fairly easy to work | towards. Each network needs to have a way of exposing charger | status, and the vehicles need the software to query them. | Again, they don't need to support every single possible | charger vendor, but the more the better. | | The user won't (usually) care if they are unaware of a few | chargers they could have used, but they want data on the ones | they plan to use, and they want that data to be accurate. | wmf wrote: | The Electrify America app doesn't even show accurate | status. | mohaine wrote: | I have an acquaintance that had just bought his 4th Leaf (2019) | and decided to drive it on a 400ish mile road trip to a | conference. It took him over 10 hours. When he got to the next | charger they | | 1) Often only had 1 high output charger. 2) The one they had | was often either in use, or broken leading to very long charge | times. | | This combined with the less than stellar driver assist the | would never get any better for the life of car made him almost | instantly regret sticking with the leaf. | | He owned it for about 2 months before trading it in on new | Model 3. | DoingIsLearning wrote: | To be fair there is about a 10k price difference between a | model 3 and Leaf. | | Not saying your points are untrue but for completeness you | would expect less for a cheaper car. We can certainly point | to the technology gap between the two being too wide but at | the end of the day they are not at the same price point. | notJim wrote: | Even greater for used Leafs. | TaylorAlexander wrote: | Yep you can even buy a 2013 leaf retrofitted with a 2019 | battery and 150+ miles of range for $12k from a shop in | Oregon. | moistbar wrote: | It's only about a 6k difference if you compare base models. | worldsayshi wrote: | Is it not possible to charge a Leaf at a Tesla station? If so | we have to have a drive towards standardisation fast. Or | Tesla will have a monopoly. | speedgoose wrote: | No it's not. Tesla uses a Tesla proprietary plug in USA, | and now a CCS-Type2 combo in Europe, which is the standard. | | Even though the plug is standard, you actually can't charge | a non Tesla on a Tesla charger because the charger only | accepts Tesla. Recently it has been possible to charge cars | from other brands for free during a few days in Germany, | some say it was a bug, some other say it was a trial. | | Also unless it has changed recently, in the Tesla ecosystem | the car is connected to internet and reporting the | consumption to the paiement system, not the charger. This | is not standard and Tesla would have to put some 4G/5G | network equipment in their chargers if they have to support | cars from other brands. | | They may be required at some point in Europe. | | The Nissan Leaf uses a Chademo plug which is another | standard, more common in Japan and it's very unlikely to | charge on a Tesla charger ever, unless someone hacks an | adapter. | rconti wrote: | To be fair, this is kind of neat-- it means the Tesla | system fails "open" and, as long as there's power at the | supercharger station (and all the electronics work, of | course), the car will charge. I had some anxiety the | first time or two I used a supercharger-- "what if it | doesn't work?" -- but so far, that's been completely | unfounded. When it 'fails', you get a free charge! I once | found a supercharger that said "limited service" which | concerned me. All it actually meant was, it charged at | 75kW instead of 150. And my charge was free. | netsharc wrote: | > Even though the plug is standard, you actually can't | charge a non Tesla on a Tesla charger because the charger | only accepts Tesla. | | If I had an electric car I'd try to figure out the auth | protocol, surely software-wise it's possible to pretend | that a Tesla is plugged in (worst case is that there's a | cryptographically secure key exchange, and someone would | have to extract the key from a Tesla). | | Hah, an adapter that pretends to be a Tesla that plugs | between the supercharger and your car, that would fit in | a cyberpunk-ish 2021. | oneplane wrote: | IIRC they use PKI with your keypair bound to your | account. So if you own a Tesla and hack it you can | pretend another car is that Tesla. You can also hack | someone else's car but then they'd have to pay for your | charging and that'd probably be stealing or something | like that. | labcomputer wrote: | Both of the other answers are incomplete: | | In Europe, where there is only one DCFC standard, Tesla | uses a standard connector but only allows Tesla cars to | charge at superchargers (there is no way for drivers of | other cars to pay or be billed for use of the station). | | In the USA, where both CCS and Chademo are standards, Tesla | uses their own proprietary connector (which is | substantially more ergonomic than either CCS or Chademo). | Tesla sells a Chademo adapter and a third party sells a CCS | adapter, so Tesla cars can use third-party DCFC stations. | | In both cases, only Tesla cars can use Tesla Superchargers. | ReidZB wrote: | For superchargers, where you'd want it most, no. | Superchargers use a specific protocol to communicate with | the car for purposes of billing -- tied to the Tesla | account associated with the car. I don't think the plug | itself is different than a normal Tesla plug (other than | being beefier, perhaps?) but I could be wrong. | | For normal Tesla wall chargers, like one that might be | installed at someone's house, I think there are adapters | that might work for the Leaf, but I have no experience with | them. | | That said, other than Tesla, I think there _is_ | standardization. Especially with Electrify America. But, | Tesla 's network is so convenient and widespread that it is | currently a big selling point for the brand, in my opinion. | vel0city wrote: | You cannot charge any non-Tesla car from a Tesla | connector. Tesla uses a proprietary connector and | signaling protocol. | toomuchtodo wrote: | This is not true. Tesla destination chargers [1] will | charge non-Tesla vehicles with an adapter. I have this | adapter [2], and my friend's Bolt charges from my home | charger (a high power wall charger on a 100A circuit) | when he's over for beers. | | It _is_ true that the V3 version of the Tesla destination | charger (which is relatively new), which has a | microcontroller /wifi/etc, has a config flag you can set | to only charge Tesla vehicles and can whitelist by VIN, | but it's still in the very early stage of release. | | @vel0city: In response to your deleted reply to this | comment, if legacy automakers want access to Tesla's | supercharging network for their own EVs, they should be | prepared to contribute towards the enormous capex costs | Tesla incurred as well as the ongoing operational | expenses. Otherwise, legacy automakers who made _no | material effort_ to transition to EVs are free riding off | of Tesla 's hard work to build the network they now | desperately need to remain in business. | | [1] https://www.tesla.com/destination-charging | | [2] https://smile.amazon.com/Lectron-Tesla- | Charger-J1772-Adapter... | vel0city wrote: | Ok, so you'll be able to use _some_ of the Tesla charging | stations assuming you 're carrying around a bulky $150 | adapter cable. You won't be able to use the Supercharger | stations which I took as the main focus of TFA. I'm also | wondering if this would work for any stations which would | be selling power, it seems these are only basic systems | without any billing. So mostly only those "patrons only" | kind of stations. | | Ultimately buying Tesla is supporting vendor lock-in and | proprietary connectors instead of industry standards. And | what a joke, as if Tesla bothered to even offer such a | thing to allow the other automakers to use their | connector and signaling. | toomuchtodo wrote: | I support innovation over industry standards that sandbag | the innovator ("the industry" came up with J1772 and | CHAdeMO, which were both clearly designed by committee). | The industry setting the standards is the problem, which | is why Tesla had to create Superchargers as a proprietary | standard (and CCS is only now catching up to, and is | still arguably inferior). The industry should consider | setting better standards if they don't want Tesla setting | them. | vel0city wrote: | Cool, and we'll have Tesla chargers, and Ford chargers, | and GM chargers, and VW chargers, and... | | Or, Tesla could adopt the industry standard so I don't | have to tear out the charger on the wall every time I | want to buy a different brand of car. | | Its quite a joke that having vendor lock-in increases | competition and innovation. If you've paid the thousands | of dollars to have a Tesla wall charger installed, and | you'll have to pay to get a different one for a different | brand, do you think that'll weigh on your decision to buy | another car even if the other car is technically better? | Proprietary connectors lock people into the platform and | increases friction to customers leaving for a different | product. | toomuchtodo wrote: | You say it's a joke, but Tesla setting their own standard | is one of the reasons they're the world's most valuable | automaker (as it contributes to an amazing user | experience). I understand that you may be dogmatic about | the desire for open standards, but the evidence is clear | it's not necessary (even with the EU requiring fast | charger interoperability). My opinion is that this is | very similar to those railing against software projects | who have to go "fair source" instead of "open source" to | protect their financial interests from others, and in the | same vein, Tesla should be compensated for their | investment in infrastructure. | | If you don't want a Tesla, don't buy one. No one is | forcing people to buy them, or to use their chargers | (fast DC or otherwise). If jurisdictions desire Tesla to | open their network for others, _compensate them for their | private investment they 're demanding they open up_. | | Regardless, I appreciate the conversation and the | perspective as an electric vehicle enthusiast. | vel0city wrote: | let's let the proprietary connector play out, and lets | say all the other automakers wither and die due to their | shortsightedness to help deploy charging stations. Now | we're down to only the single Tesla connector out there | for charging in the wild, and effectively only Tesla | cars. Is this a good thing for innovation? Do you think | this will increase or decrease innovation? And all | because they were first to market with a proprietary | connector they heavily pushed. Effectively, if you want | to buy a car with the ability to charge in the wild you | will be forced to buy a Tesla due to a monopoly of | charging stations. Sounds like a good future filled with | innovation to me! | | Lets also look at it the other way in a theoretical to | analyze the idea of widespread proprietary connectors and | their connection to innovation. Say Nissan had a | proprietary connector and made the big investment to | deploy a massive charging network. The Nissan cars are | technically vastly inferior to the Tesla cars, but | because Nissan made a well-timed capex they've got a leg | up on the chargers. People then tend to buy the inferior | Nissan cars because of the brand presence and vast | availability of chargers. While the Tesla cars are | technically better, all of those owners already have | proprietary Nissan connectors at home. Their offices have | Nissan chargers. Their grocery store has Nissan chargers. | The highway rest stops have Nissan chargers. Truck stops | have Nissan chargers. Do you think the technically better | Tesla wins? Imagine when new construction of houses | starts to have vehicle charging connections common. If | your house came with a Nissan charger and it'll cost you | $500 to swap it out for a Tesla one, doesn't that raise | the price of the Tesla $500 simply because of the cable | in your home? Sounds terrible to me. | FrojoS wrote: | How far we have come from the days when people here | argued that Tesla was dead the moment one of the big old | car manufacturers was starting to build electric cars in | earnest. | zamfi wrote: | This is a huge straw man. | | Obviously it would be better for consumers if all these | companies got together and used a single standard and | shared resources to build out a great network. Also | better for consumers would be decoupling the charging | network from the manufacturers, like ICE cars and mobile | phones do (cables aside, in the latter case). No one is | arguing otherwise, the discussion is about why this isn't | better for _manufacturers_. | | One way to make it better for manufacturers is to mandate | a standard, leaving manufacturers who don't use the | standard in violation of statute. | | But _another_ way is to wait until there are enough | manufacturers of EVs, who _actually care_ about their EVs | and not just making compliance vehicles, and who | _actually care_ about building EV charging networks and | not just building them to comply with consent decrees | they 're subject to thanks to past illegal behavior, and | who as a result _actually care_ about having a useful, | usable, reliable network of fast charging stations for | cross-country trips. | | Right now, only Tesla cares about this. | | Eventually, other manufacturers will too. Then, one day, | it will make sense for both manufacturers and consumers | to use a single shared plug, and all new installations | will have it, and old installations will be retrofitted. | It will take 10+ years here, but it's already happening | in Europe thanks to mandates. In the meantime, mandating | everyone follow some terrible standard and support other | manufacturers' vehicles is just punitive to the | manufacturers who do care, and punitive to future | consumers who would like to use a functional system and | not be stuck with the garbage that passes for fast | charging outside Tesla's network in the US today. | | </soapbox> | vel0city wrote: | The thing is, Tesla wants to push their proprietary | connector and have that be the dominant plug. Its their | connector which will only be featured on Tesla cars. You | really think Tesla would be going along with retrofitting | in Europe if it wasn't for regulations? That they'd just | willingly give up their market dominance position in | charging network just because they feel like it and have | some altruistic desire to embrace some future connector? | | The industry standard answer to the Supercharger | connector exists. Its available on multiple brands of | cars today. The day for a single shared plug could be | today if Elon says so. Retrofits for charging stations | could start happening tomorrow. They could probably start | cranking out CCS compatible cars for the US market within | a quarter. But Tesla doesn't want a single shared plug, | they want to own the market for chargers. They want to | use the wide spread proprietary connector as a selling | point to sell their cars. Which is _exactly_ the concept | in my "straw man" post. Its not really a straw man when | its _literally_ the exact scenario that 's currently | playing out in the market though, a car manufacturer | using a dominant position in deploying chargers to push | their cars. For evidence, see TFA. Do you think Tesla | owners are installing J1772/CCS chargers at their homes | and using adapters, or are they installing Tesla | chargers? When someone sees an article like this, is that | not convincing shoppers to look at Teslas first over | other brands of electric cars? Seems less like a straw | man and just taking a hard look at the objective reality | of today. | | Buying Tesla is supporting vendor lock-in. Its obvious to | you that a single, open connector is better for the | market and yet you'll continue to support a proprietary | one. | labcomputer wrote: | I think it was clear from context that the person you're | replying to was talking about DC fast chargers, not L2 AC | charging. | toomuchtodo wrote: | Words means things, and those were not the words in their | comment. | | > You cannot charge any non-Tesla car from a Tesla | connector | labcomputer wrote: | With the implied context | | > [...] at a Supercharger station. | | But I repeat myself. | icefrakker wrote: | Weird how your ego can't acknowledge you misspoke. | Judgmentality wrote: | That wasn't implied to me. When people go out of their | way to point out how what you said isn't what you meant | to say, and you brush it off as "no no, it's you who | don't understand my eloquent prose," you might want to | consider taking the feedback as constructive. | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYAuR5bkIlQ | worldsayshi wrote: | > if legacy automakers want access to Tesla's | supercharging network for their own EVs, they should be | prepared to contribute towards the enormous capex costs | Tesla incurred as well as the ongoing operational | expenses | | While this seems very fair it also seems very | problematic. They definitely should do that. But if they | chose to not do that and build disjointed infrastructure | instead the outcome will be worse for everyone and it | will give Tesla an advantage that perhaps would not be | unfair to them but at least would be unfair to consumers. | Retric wrote: | The other side of this is the standard uses a | significantly worse connector in terms of weight etc vs | the Tesla connector to preserve backward compatibility to | an earlier standard at low cost. That's always the issue | with industry standards where it's less about creating a | useful standard than minimizing the changes required to | existing infrastructure. | worldsayshi wrote: | It seems fine that they create a standard of their own as | long as they also allow others to make use of it and | don't wall it in. | Spivak wrote: | There's really no good solution for problems like this | that don't make someone upset. | | Tesla wants to profit off the fruit of their labor and | extract some value from their product that is providing | value to others and fund its development. It also is used | as a sales vector since their charging network is a huge | selling point for their cars. | | Consumers don't want to be stuck with two standards for | no reason other than corporate politics and pay higher | prices via those licensing fees. Or be locked out from | certain charging stations just because of the model of | their car. | | And other automakers don't want to be put at a | competitive disadvantage because they have little choice | but have to license the tech from Tesla. | | And the world doesn't want to put up with having to | duplicate the massive human effort of setting up a | charging network n times just because of corporate | politics. | | I always thought this was the basically the perfect | situation for gov't to step in and "fix" the market by | just funding the development of the charging technology | and providing it to all automakers for free/at cost so | everyone gets the best charger on the cheap. | setr wrote: | Wouldn't the normal thing be for Tesla to license/rent | their existing infrastructure out to other brands? It | mainly becomes an issue if Tesla decides its part of | their car value -- but otherwise they could basically | 100% own and entirely govern the development of America's | charging network | vel0city wrote: | Sorry, I guess I spoke too broadly. I was intending for | this to be about the Supercharger stations as that's what | TFA was about. This adapter will not work for any of the | Telsa Supercharger stations you'll commonly find around. | They'll work for the smaller charging stations that | private individuals will own, but you won't be able to | use Tesla's charging network with this adapter. | | Buying Tesla is supporting vendor lock-in and proprietary | standards instead of supporting open standards. | speedgoose wrote: | In Europe they use the CCS-Type2 standard, but only | authorize Tesla cars to charge. | mahkeiro wrote: | It's almost certain that one brand charging station are | going to be forbidden soon in Europe, as it is going to | create a huge mess. Try to imagine if the gas station | were only able to serve one brand... | speedgoose wrote: | Yes Tesla should open its chargers to everyone before | they are forced to do so. I know some Tesla owners like | the exclusivity but I think it will benefit the brand | more to open the chargers. | jackson1442 wrote: | There is definitely a Tesla Level 2 -> CCS adapter, but | no such luck for Superchargers. Not sure about Chademo, | which is what a lot of the Leaf line uses. | vel0city wrote: | It is not possible to charge a Leaf at a Tesla station. | Tesla uses proprietary connectors instead of the industry | standard J1772/CCS connectors. | stcredzero wrote: | When I went for my test drive of a Model 3, I noted that | there was a Chevy Bolt being traded in for a Model 3. | bdamm wrote: | Yeah. The Bolt is a nice driving car, but the charging rate | is a joke compared to any Tesla. | cbm-vic-20 wrote: | The Supercharger is definitely faster, but a Bolt on a | CCS DC Type-3 charger is slower, but in the same league. | | On the other hand, the "user experience" of every Type-3 | charger I've seen is _terrible_. The chargers are often | in inconvenient places, the super thick cables are very | short, and then you 've got to try a couple of times to | get the charger and the car to talk to each other and get | the payment sorted out. Tesla wins on this _hands down_ , | and it's not even close. | | Oddly enough, the Type-2 experience isn't nearly as bad. | Other than requiring 6+ hours to charge... | starfallg wrote: | In the UK, there are several different networks now and they | offer a good enough experience. Polar Network (now BP Pulse) | has many more locations than Tesla, and their rapid chargers | are located in convenient locations, such as restaurants and | hotels or on a side street in the city center. Cost-wise, the | rapid charger price is just 60% of the Tesla Supercharger per | kwh. | mprev wrote: | My experience has been different. | | Electric Highway (Ecotricity) has a high rate of broken | chargers. When you find one, they seem to charge a minimum | fee of PS12 regardless of how much you use. | | Most chargers are slow. Either 7kw or 11kw is common; 20kw is | considered rapid in some places. | | The fragmentation of networks means you need at least four | crap apps just to get around and then you'll probably need to | install a new app if you're going somewhere new. | | What you call convenient locations are a mixed blessing. | Spaces for chargers are often ICEd in my experience because | they're in busy car parks. | | I just want to pull up, plug in, and tap my credit card. The | charge networks seem to go out of their way to make using the | service painful. | starfallg wrote: | >I just want to pull up, plug in, and tap my credit card. | | That's exactly the way that all Polar rapid chargers work, | and there's a lot of them scattered around now. The rate is | lower if you join as a member though. | fiftyfifty wrote: | I'm really shocked that other manufacturers haven't invested in | more infrastructure. Toyota and Honda pushed hydrogen fuel cell | vehicles for years, they could have easily accelerated adoption | of the tech by investing in refueling infrastructure. Now all | that money they invested in fuel cell cars looks to be wasted | as they both are playing catchup with battery electric | vehicles, mostly because of Tesla. | Animats wrote: | _Toyota and Honda pushed hydrogen fuel cell vehicles for | years_ | | Toyota wanted someone else to pay for the infrastructure. | | California has 27 hydrogen stations up today.[1] There's not | much interest in building more. | | [1] https://m.cafcp.org/ | toomuchtodo wrote: | Legacy automakers never thought they were going to have to | build and sell EVs at scale until Tesla forced their hand | (and also demonstrated to governments that it was time to | schedule new combustion vehicle sales bans), hence why they | didn't invest in their own charging networks (which cost | Tesla over half a billion dollars and counting [1] [2]). | | [1] https://supercharge.info/changes [2] | https://supercharge.info/map | cronix wrote: | One thing I like about Nio is they are using swappable | batteries[1] that can be swapped out in about 3-5 minutes, | which is comparable, or likely faster, than filling (from | empty) at a gas station depending on tank size. It also leaves | Nio in charge of keeping the batteries up to date so your car | won't lose value over time like a 10 year old car with degraded | batteries that won't hold as much of a charge and take longer | and longer to charge over time as the battery degrades and cost | a heck of a lot to swap out. It costs about $16k[2] to get a | Model 3 battery replaced. Nio is able to sell cars for about | $10k cheaper by using swappable batteries. Batteries as a | Service. | | [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33670482/nio-swappable- | ba... | | Edit, added link: [2] https://www.msn.com/en- | us/autos/enthusiasts/it-costs-nearly-... | bryanlarsen wrote: | Tesla tried that too | (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY), but they only | built one swap station and they decommissioned it a couple of | years later. They claimed lack of demand and doubled down on | supercharging instead. | | A company named Better Place got a ton of VC funding to set | up a battery swapping service for electric cars, and flamed | out spectacularly. | | Perhaps NIO can succeed where Tesla and Better Place failed, | but I'm doubtful. OTOH, Shanghai is probably a great place to | start. | secabeen wrote: | It's going to be very interesting to see what kinds and | levels of fraud they experience with those batteries. | Generally, companies don't lend or rent assets valued at | $15k+ to individuals without a lot of legal and contractual | protections (see your average rental car contract.) Were I | them, I would worry a lot about battery wear-and-tear, | undeclared damage, and even internal component substitution. | mschuster91 wrote: | > Were I them, I would worry a lot about battery wear-and- | tear, undeclared damage, and even internal component | substitution. | | A car battery can definitely carry its own anti tamper | mechanism and an LTE modem to report issues. Besides... a | car battery isn't actually worth 15k$ to a thief. Not much | to part out (PCBs are custom, casing ain't gonna fetch much | in terms of scrap metal, and there's not much of a market | for used li-ion 18650's with the exception of ecig | hobbyists so swapping them out for lower quality isn't | worth the effort), if it's an exclusively rent model there | is no market for a stolen pack. | | Wear and tear also isn't that much of an issue as Tesla | proved. | Jonanin wrote: | This is a pretty neat idea, but it seems insanely expensive | for the network operator. Not only would having a large | inventory of spare batteries be very capital intensive, but | the swapping stations themselves look complex and expensive | too. I wonder if Nio even has the capital required to do this | at a large enough scale. | ericmay wrote: | I like the swappable batteries, but I think they are | impractical as a comparison to Tesla SuperChargers. | | First, it's a logistics problem. Tesla has like 20,000 | SuperChargers. If I'm driving on a road trip, I need to stop | at a SuperCharger and there's let's say a dozen spots. In | some locations those spots are full, others might be half | empty and so forth. How will NIO supply the hardware to do | these battery swaps? Will there be a dozen battery swap | stations spread out similar to the SuperCharger network? Who | will deliver the batteries? How many do you need? What | happens if you show up and NIO ran out of batteries to swap? | Will this actually be cheaper than the SuperCharger network | for me? | | I think it makes more sense to swap the batteries out from a | manufacturing standpoint, but much less so for road trips. | You can see NIO already shifting away from this with | increased range. | | If you could just swap out the batteries why even bother | working on range (NIO touting 600km+ cars IIRC)? I guess that | could further limit how many swap stations you need (they | could be more spread out), but the problem is you end up | spreading them just a long main routes. I need a | SuperCharger/battery swap location in places like Marquette, | Michigan or Pigeon Forge, Tennessee. | | And as a Tesla owner and road trip driver... I really don't | mind waiting like 20 minutes for the battery to charge. It | encourages me to take breaks I otherwise wouldn't have taken | which are probably more healthy. Destination charging or a | SuperCharger within a 20 minute drive of my destination are | more of concerns for me now that I own an EV, but it just | means the trip has to be planned out a little more. | | I like NIO's ambitions and like the battery as a service | prospect, but much more for hey I want to swap out my old | battery for a new one to extend the life of my car. | JackPoach wrote: | It should be noted that is is a US only/mostly story. A fair | analogy is Uber - dominant in US and some other markets, but | clear loser in China, India, Africa and many European markets | hnburnsy wrote: | Here is a good article on what non Tesla owners face, not just I | convince but often higher charges. The final take... | | " As I wrote in my review, the Mustang Mach-E is one impressive | EV, one that stands tall against the Tesla Model Y in most | competitive measures. But Tesla's foresight and investment in its | own proprietary network remains a key competitive advantage, | right up there with its edge in electric efficiency and range" | | https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/24/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e... | RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: | I am not sure how big of a deal this is. | | The main use case for EV is short distance daily trips where you | can charge at home. | | Going on a long distance trip, a gas powered vehicle is superior. | With gas, especially with cell phone gps, you basically need no | planning or forethought. You just drive, and if you think you are | runnning low, you just look for a gas station along your route. | | So yes, Tesla has a vastly superior charging network compared to | to the others, but it is still vastly inferior to the gas station | network. | ggreer wrote: | Charging time is a non-issue nowadays. Last weekend I drove | from Portland to Spokane and back (almost 400 miles each way). | I entered my destination on the Tesla's giant touchscreen. The | car figured out the route and the one charging stop. I drove to | the freeway, turned on autopilot, and let the car do its thing. | Then three hours later the car took an exit. I drove from the | offramp to the charging station, plugged in, and had a | snack/coffee. By the time I was back, the car was ready to go. | The only issue was that automatic lane change was occasionally | disabled due to snow obscuring cameras. The whole experience | was far less tiring or stressful than any road trip I've taken | with a gas car. | LinuxBender wrote: | I think they can do even better. Stop charging the car. Keep is | as an option, but make it something people only do at home with | their solar power and leisure time. Make the battery modules hot | swappable. Even better, make it so I can drive over a thing, the | batteries swap while I am moving. This means I stop owning | batteries and as batteries improve, my car gets automatic | upgrades. I bet Elon can not only do this, but can probably even | one-up this idea. | clintonb wrote: | They tried: https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery- | swapping-plan.... Supercharging is more convenient. | recursive wrote: | That results either in a decrease in range or increase in | weight and size. Physical space for these batteries is a | limiting factor. Making the whole thing modular increases | complexity, size, and weight. | LinuxBender wrote: | True, but according to Elons plans around the airline | industry, the extra module space should be a wash in a couple | of years as battery capacity is expected to grow | substantially. | greedo wrote: | So instead of having a few parking spots with charging | stations, now you need to have some sort of hydraulic lift | system to swap out a multi-ton battery. And a facility to store | these batteries (and charge them). Oh and these batteries are | quite valuable, at least half the price of the EV. You would | also need to have different size batteries, based on the EV | model, the battery model (LF or SF), etc etc. | | You would have to staff these Battery Swap (I'll call them BS) | facilities for when the machinery breaks down, or damages a | car, or any other of a myriad number of problems. You would | also need substantial real estate for this BS facility, zoned | appropriately. | | Or you could simply install some automated charging stations | that don't require any of this CAPEX or headache. Pretty easy | to see why this is the model Tesla pursued. | LinuxBender wrote: | I am not considering parking spots at all. That is where the | traditional charge stations would remain. This would be for | modernizing gas stations, or adding refueling stations | anywhere there is room for a "drive through". No hydraulics. | Just a set of carbide gears and points that push on a set of | battery module releases one set at a time. Old module roles | out, new module roles in. Never more than 1 disconnected at a | time to ensure vehicle does not lose power. I envision that | with time, the speed allowed in the drive-through should | increase exponentially, speeding up commute times. No | stopping, no lifting, just keep driving. | nickik wrote: | Tesla tried this and they realized its a bad idea. | Standardizing a mechanism like this is insanely complex so | for the most part it would be 'per company'. | | And even within the vehicles of one company, changing a | Model S and Cybertruck battery is very challenge. | | Even assuming all of that works, it requires you to totally | change the whole engineering on the car. Designing the car | to have battery swap makes it far more complex to integrate | the battery pack with the vehicle structure and makes it | more difficult to protect the battery. | | Tesla moved away from even having the option of a swapable | battery when they added extra protection on the bottom of | the car to prevent more fires and accidents like that. | | NIO in China does operate a system like that, but the swap | stations are human operated. So you drive up, hand over | your car to a person, who drives it into the swap station | for you and returns it. | | Its also incredibly expensive to build these stations, let | alone operate 1000s of them. | greedo wrote: | Have you looked at the size of the battery pack in a Tesla? | Imagine a "gas station" being able to store at least 10-20 | of them, as well as all the machinery that swaps them. Then | figure that the value of 20 battery packs is roughly $15K | each. Then add the facilities cost, rent, staffing, | insurance etc. A gas station is pretty cheap overall, just | tanks and self-service pumps with a stooge selling | cigarettes inside. The value proposition just isn't there. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-01-27 23:00 UTC)