[HN Gopher] Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-resp... ___________________________________________________________________ Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responders into responders Author : CharlesW Score : 285 points Date : 2021-02-05 15:53 UTC (7 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.eurekalert.org) (TXT) w3m dump (www.eurekalert.org) | bdauvergne wrote: | Does not seem so new, | https://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6371/91 . | rubatuga wrote: | Stuff like this motivated me to do a minor in Immunology during | university. And we still have no idea what is going on. | mc32 wrote: | Do people who work on Septic tanks (or nightsoilmen) and such | share a common profile in regards to their immune system? | | Or is transplanting a requirement? | PointyFluff wrote: | Fantastic hypothesis. | oblongx wrote: | How would it work? Airborne poop particles? I've never seen | my septic guy get poop on themselves and certainly not in | themselves. | sgtnoodle wrote: | It seems reasonable that people in that line of work would | get exposed to random folks' germs orders of magnitude more | often than someone not working around waste, even if they | aren't swimming in it. | panzagl wrote: | I would definitely mention it in my Yelp review if they | did. | agumonkey wrote: | is the pace faster though ? I had the impression that small | progress came more often in this decade. | silexia wrote: | I had a business idea a few years ago to do fecal transplants | from famous people as a new LA business. There seems to be a | lot of regulatory hurdles for doing it though. I would love to | see someone do this both in disease treatment, as well as just | to test out impact on things like mental or athletic | performance. | at_a_remove wrote: | In 2012, Brandon Cronenberg, son of David, released a movie | called _Antiviral_ about a niche product -- viruses and | bacteria harvested from celebrities who become sick, in order | to inject them into paying clients who want a "connection" | with the famous. | klmadfejno wrote: | What exactly was the rational behind that? | gambiting wrote: | I mean, if people are willing to pay money for Gwyneth | Paltrow's vagina eggs or Twitch streamer's bath water, I | can only imagine the small fortune people would pay for a | bacteria transplant from a famous person, even if it had no | effect whatsoever(you can always craft a cleverly worded ad | that suggests there are benefits but never actually states | so as a fact). | klmadfejno wrote: | It would have an effect though. That's a direct | alteration to your gut microbiome. I guess, sure, | fetishists are a thing. But I'm not sure it's a viable | target market haha. | gambiting wrote: | You could probably sterilise it so there's absolutely no | live anything remaining and people would still buy it. | But yes, it's probably a tough market :-P | jb1991 wrote: | So the core idea in this study was actually determined by an | algorithm to focus their attention: | | > Artificial intelligence linked these changes to the gut | microbiome, likely caused by FMT. | qzw wrote: | The procedure seems to have all kinds of benefits, but I think | the name could've really used some of the good ol' | marketingspeak. I bet a lot more people would be open to getting | something like a "digestive microbiome transfer" than the more | accurate but gross "fecal transplant". | buggythebug wrote: | People with cancer don't care what a medicine/treatment is | called. | rubyfan wrote: | I'd guess most of people that need this treatment are very | happy to overlook the name or even reality of what it is. If | it leads to better health than they're able to sustain right | now, then yeah by all means. | robocat wrote: | Are you a doctor? | | I hear stories of people using alternative "medicine" and | eschewing (normal|western)? medicine, so I think you are | incorrect. Anecdotally I personally know of one person who | used indigenous herbs to treat their cancer (I don't know the | outcome of that). | m463 wrote: | " _late_ digestive microbiome transfer " | | "early digestive microbiome transfer" would be .. bar.. puk.. | emetic reflux transplantation. | pvaldes wrote: | I assume that we could just isolate and culture the bacteria | colonies in clean agar agar, solving the problem. | joering2 wrote: | Almost perfect IMHO.. but word "transfer" sound to me like a | transplant. May I suggest "digestive microbiome rejuvenation" ? | djbelieny wrote: | You win today's INTERWEBS MARKETING ACHIEVEMENT BADGE.You may | have a cookie; | filoleg wrote: | agreed that "transfer" sounds and feels similar to | "transplant". But imo the "transplant" part in "fecal matter | transplant" was not the part that was problematic for public | perception lol. | | I think both "digestive microbiome transfer" and "digestive | microbiome transplant" sound perfectly fine, as both get rid | of the "gross" part of the name. But I think that "transfer" | is slightly better, because "transplant" invokes associations | with something being surgically put into my body and attached | to stay there permanently. While "transfer" doesn't have the | same sense of permanence and seriousness attached to it. | ghgdynb1 wrote: | You may have a gift | leptoniscool wrote: | You're right a lot of things has benefited from rebranding. For | example instead of 'cow feet juice', it's now Jello. | TylerE wrote: | Rapeseed -> Canola | mv4 wrote: | Patagonian toothfish -> Chilean sea bass | arcticbull wrote: | Slimehead -> Orange Roughy | loveJesus wrote: | pornography -> art | m463 wrote: | pervasive surveillance and tracking -> Advertising | legerdemain wrote: | Tyranny -> "representative" government. | | Extortion -> taxation. | | Invasion into the minute detail of my attire -> public | "decency" laws. | arcticbull wrote: | Yeah, taxation isn't extortion and tyranny isn't | representative government tho but otherwise agreed! | | I would argue the conversion is the one you're utilizing, | from "taxation" to "extortion." | | Extortion is a specifically defined crime, and of course, | it is the role of the government to define criminal | behavior. In the same way that getting arrested by the | police isn't kidnapping, paying taxes isn't extortion. | | The consent of the governed and all that. | treeman79 wrote: | Turns out if you don't pay taxes or fines, at the extreme | you can be shot to death. This is legal. | | Lot of laws and rules are arbitrary, so a government | official get a "fine", sometimes massive fines, placed | against you. | | You pay it or lose everything, go to jail, or get shot | for refusing. | | Lots of struggling business owners are finding themselves | in this situation lately. | arcticbull wrote: | Lots of small business owners are getting shot for not | paying taxes? Generally you have to make profit to pay | taxes. Otherwise they've been substantial beneficiaries | of programs like the PPP. | frongpik wrote: | Oppression -> safety measures. | objektif wrote: | Be evil -> Don't be evil. | joseluis wrote: | Don't be evil -> Don't don't be evil | yholio wrote: | Genius. | mv4 wrote: | survival -> stimulus | Ntrails wrote: | I always wondered what the hell canola was (not enough to | look it up, but, still) | TylerE wrote: | It stands for CANadian Oil Low Acid. | ngoldbaum wrote: | CANadian Oil Low Acid, it's lower in erucic acid than | other rapeseed cultivars. In the early 70s there were | studies in rats that showed that erucic acid caused heart | disease so canola was marketed as being healthier. | hnick wrote: | That's the same acid which lead to mustard oil being | banned, hence it being labelled 'for ceremonial purposes | only' or something similar in Indian groceries in the US | as a wink-wink workaround. | mleonhard wrote: | Is mustard oil used in a lot of Indian cuisine? I wonder | if that has something to do with the high rates of heart | disease in people of Indian descent? | hnick wrote: | I have no firsthand knowledge of Indian home cooking, but | here's an article about it which claims it's common. | | https://www.seriouseats.com/2020/02/mustard-oil- | guide.html | | From what I've seen in passing most people attribute | rising heart disease to economic prosperity leading to a | more westernised diet but I haven't really looked into | it. | markdown wrote: | I've only seen it used to make Aam ka achaar (mango | pickle) | DevKoala wrote: | Terrorism -> Antifacism | ficklepickle wrote: | Chicken periods -> eggs | yongjik wrote: | Wouldn't call it a successful rebranding. Cow feet soup is | positively delicious (and rather expensive). | bayindirh wrote: | and immune system boosting. :) | ryanisnan wrote: | You're missing the point. Cow feet soup might be positively | delicious, but from a North American standpoint (and | probably most western cultures), it's not something people | are lining up for. | jacoblambda wrote: | I wouldn't necessarily say that, pig feet soups are | extremely popular in the south, particularly in Cajun | cuisine. It's not exactly the same but is rather similar. | Almost everyone knows what it is and it doesn't both us | that it is what it is despite being in NA. | treeman79 wrote: | Chicken foot soup also tasty. | | Burritos with an actual foot inside of, well coworkers | say it's good. | _tom_ wrote: | Dolphin Fish -> Mahi Mahi | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahi-mahi | Turing_Machine wrote: | Dog salmon or chum salmon -> "keta" salmon, or | "silverbrite" salmon. | LinuxBender wrote: | Crushed parasitic beetles -> Starbucks strawberry drink | [1] | | [1] - https://inhabitat.com/starbucks-admits-its- | strawberry-drinks... | layoutIfNeeded wrote: | Half-digested plant cum, vomited out by insects = honey | mirekrusin wrote: | Caviar vs fish babies. | MS-DDOS wrote: | HN has been devovling into Reddit for a while now. Smh. | throwawgler87 wrote: | Anyone know if gelatin causes extra animals to be killed? If | not, you probably could feel okay about it. | darth_avocado wrote: | Not if you're vegetarians. Or Hindus. | Ekaros wrote: | Probably not. Lot of parts can produce gelatin and they are | usually not the ones eaten or are less preferable. So | actually I think it likely did reduce waste. | fencepost wrote: | Very unlikely as it's basically a way to get value out of | low value parts. If sources on Wikipedia are to be trusted | it's mostly made from pig and cow hides, which is why you | can also find kosher gelatin (where the supply chain is | known and free of pork products). | CobrastanJorji wrote: | Well, maybe. By finding a valuable use for an otherwise | unused part of the animal, you're increasing the value of | raising and slaughtering animals, and increasing the value | of something usually encourages more of it. But it's more | interesting than that because the main market is for the | meat, and if the availability of meat were to decrease | because it's not as profitable, one would expect the price | to go back up a bit, which would in turn encourage more | production. | yholio wrote: | That's a strange way to frame it. Reducing waste will | allow farmers to cover more of the production costs using | non-meat revenue. In a competitive market, this will push | them to lower the price of meat, stimulating its | consumption, and increasing the number of animals, which | in turn will lead to economies of scale, lower costs and | prices, even higher demand and even more animals. | mmastrac wrote: | Morals of animal consumption aside, adding demand for any | part of an animal will add some degree of financial benefit | for using animals in general (ie: reducing waste by making | use of an additional part means more $ in the farmer's | pocket per cow). | nkingsy wrote: | What about that fancy organic fertilizer? | WalterSear wrote: | Everything that increases the profit of a system, by being | a revenue source or even just reducing the cost of the | process, contributes to the system. | | Yes, animals are being killed and ground up to make | gelatin. | 29athrowaway wrote: | Fraud -> Subprime mortgage crisis | | Theft -> Quantitative Easing | SAI_Peregrinus wrote: | Bank Fraud -> Identity Theft | chihuahua wrote: | Bank robbery -> Undocumented withdrawal | thunkshift1 wrote: | Hold up.. what? | WalterSear wrote: | Jello is called jello because it's made from gelatin. Which | was some poor cow's hooves, among other things. | zests wrote: | Nuclear MRI (NMRI) -> MRI | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_resonance_imaging | hjek wrote: | alligator pear - avocado | rpastuszak wrote: | Or rather: testicles -> alligator pear | legerdemain wrote: | But in actual reality: edible testicles -> mountain | oysters. | jcims wrote: | Ooh, that one went the wrong way imho | mirekrusin wrote: | Sushi vs cold, dead fish. | TheMagicHorsey wrote: | OMG! This is the worst TIL of my entire life. I eat a | shameful amount of Jello as an adult, and I did not know | this! | throwaway316943 wrote: | It's good for you | hh3k0 wrote: | I'd argue that cow feet are best for cows. | Spooky23 wrote: | If people didn't eat cows or drink milk, they'd be like | most other large ruminants... extinct. | MisterTea wrote: | They don't need them after they've been sent to the | market. | taneq wrote: | If it makes you feel better it's often pig feet, and | sometimes various knees. | | Also, gelatin is in EVERYTHING. Good luck eating virtually | any dessert if you're a strict vegetarian. | dashundchen wrote: | As someone who eats plant based, that is definitely not | the case in the US. Gelatin is very easy to avoid. | | Outside of jello itself, the common desserts that contain | it are chewy candies and some mousse type desserts. So | canolli, mousse, and flan frequently have gelatin, along | with things like Starbursts and some chewing gums, but | other than that I have not found it to be a common | ingredient. | taneq wrote: | Weird... In Australia (last I checked at least, maybe | it's changed) it's commonly in chocolate, ice cream, and | any kind of soft sweet, to the point where it's nigh | impossible to get any of the above without it. | jcul wrote: | In Ireland it would be very rare for me to see it in ice- | cream or chocolate, and I'm fairly religious about | checking labels. Plenty of sweets / jellies, but these | days there are more and more vegan / vegetarian options. | worker767424 wrote: | > chocolate | | Definitely not in anything like a bar of chocolate. | | > ice cream | | Oddly, this seems to vary a lot by country. It's rare in | the US, though. Guar gum is common, though. | hjek wrote: | Expert vegan here. No, gelatin is never in plain | chocolates, but often added to diced coconut! | kevinmchugh wrote: | People who keep kosher or halal mostly avoid gelatin, so | countries with notable kosher, halal, and | vegetarian/vegan populations probably see less gelatin | use. | fencepost wrote: | For chocolates it might be in things with foams or | nougat. Definitely in marshmallows. | worker767424 wrote: | Ah. chocolates != chocolate | | Usually nougat uses egg whites so it doesn't need gelatin | as a protein. Marshmallows are arguably nougat, though, | since they're also sugar bound with protein. Marshmallow | cream usually uses egg. | | All of the major nougat US candy bars I can find use egg | and not gelatin. | | I've seen chocolates with marshmallow in them. | nicoburns wrote: | There are very good vegetarian substitutes for gelatine, | they're just more expensive. So gelatine content can vary | quite widely by market depending on the number of | vegetarians. Here in the UK it used to be in a lot more | things 20 years ago than it is now. | coliveira wrote: | Not just food, gelatin is also found in shampoos, face | masks, cosmetics in general, and all kinds of candy. | worker767424 wrote: | The theme in the US is things that are chewy and things | that are stored cold and need to retain a texture. | | The common places you might not expect it are sour cream, | yogurt, fondant, and some Planters dry-roasted nuts. | amelius wrote: | And the red coloring in many foods (E120) is made from | insects. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmine | gknoy wrote: | I still remember (with a mixture of awe and horror) the | video I saw that showed how gummy bears are made... in | reverse. So you start with delicious looking things, and | it just gets more and more nightmarish. It was | brilliantly done, and I am pretty sure I think of it | almost every time I think about gummy candies. | | I think I found it again by searching for "reverse gummy | bear video". I won't link it directly, so that if you | really don't want to see it, there's less chance of | reflexively clicking a link. ;) | RankingMember wrote: | Welp, guess I've eaten my last gummy bear. At least | Swedish Fish are gelatin-free! | | The video, for anyone wanting a direct link (be warned, | it's exactly as gknoy described): | https://vimeo.com/180163754 | frongpik wrote: | Decomposing an alive pig into gummy bears is like making | gold bars out of laptops. | fencepost wrote: | Fascinating, never thought about how they get the skin | off. Think in terms of a cross between a large powered | vegetable peeler and a packing tape dispenser (the kind | with a handle). | | The video is not actually gory - shows parts of the | cleaning and butchering process, but not the | slaughterhouse. | InitialLastName wrote: | Warning: Don't watch the same video for electronics | (assuming it exists and gets back to the heavy metal | mines) | pvaldes wrote: | A different question could be why are you a strict | vegetarian when your species evolved as an omnivore | | Everybody turning strict vegetarian would create an | ecological disaster at planetary level. | InitialLastName wrote: | Why is that worse than the planetary-level ecological | disaster that's currently being exacerbated by everyone | in the developed world eating a ridiculous amount of | meat? | | My species also "evolved" to constantly fight wars | against everyone not in my family; I'd say it's really | good news that we were able to develop moral and | conceptual systems to overwhelm our evolutionary | tendencies. | hnick wrote: | So you live a hunter gatherer lifestyle, mostly outdoors, | and definitely don't sit in a chair out of the sun for | hours at a time? Since we're talking about evolution. | taurath wrote: | The history of gelatin as a food product is fascinating, | as it exploded in popularity in the mid century - check | out some of these.... interesting looking dishes. | | https://flashbak.com/meals-in-a-mold-the-mid-centurys- | love-a... | | https://www.thedailymeal.com/eat/why-were-there-so-many- | gela... | JTbane wrote: | luckily there are alternatives if you are vegan, such as | agar and pectin | interestica wrote: | Do they still use horse parts for the glue that keeps the | boxes shut? | legerdemain wrote: | No, but there are plenty of horse parts in red wine. | worker767424 wrote: | It's more common in white wine. | djrogers wrote: | Not sure where you're from, but at least for American- | made wines that's not often the case, as there are many | more common and/or cheaper sources for chitin, casein, | gelatin, etc. (pig and cow, as well as egg based sources | for example). Also, blood-based fining agents have been | outlawed in the US and Europe since the mid 90s thanks to | the mad-cow scare. | | Of course this conversation also ignores the fact that | fining agents are removed from wine before bottling as | part of their purpose - they bind with the crap you don't | want in your wine. Typical store-bought wine will have no | detectable amount of a fining agent in it. | legerdemain wrote: | It's contamination "by association." I don't think it's | debatable that fewer people would drink wine with | pleasure if I told them it was filtered through human | bone char, even if I didn't include any in the bottle. | brailsafe wrote: | I hope so, horses are terrifying. | scythe wrote: | You know, it's kind of funny. Horses might have a better | argument than any other animal for being the natural | predator of humans. Specifically, nomadic depredations on | preindustrial societies comprised armies with a | proportionally small number of humans and a large number | of horses pillaging towns and cities full of horseless | humans. In 13th-century Asia, the average horse probably | had a better life than the average human. The same thing | happened shortly after the horse was (re)introduced to | North America in the sixteenth century; settled | agricultural societies were quickly overrun by horse- | riding nomads. | masklinn wrote: | Hopefully, what else are you going to do with hooves and | bones otherwise, throw them away? That's wasteful! | | (in reality there's almost no chance, synthetic glues are | way easier to manufacture and manage, outside of gelatin | animal glues would near-only be used for restoration or | specialty applications e.g. some lutherie and other | speciality woodworking) | jarmitage wrote: | I can't wait until there exists a poop culture + social | platforms around otherwise ordinary people with celebrity fecal | matter. | | Merch plop! | mirekrusin wrote: | And wine tasting/perfume shop like experience? This must be | one of those million dollar ideas. | jarmitage wrote: | And poopfluencers who have secret diets that give you | psychedelic brain-gut experiences | equalsione wrote: | Surely you meant to say "poop culture"? | jarmitage wrote: | Fixed x2 | breakfastduck wrote: | I don't think he did. We're already at poop culture level | as far as I can tell. | [deleted] | justinator wrote: | "You stuff someone else's shit! Up your ass!" | | I guess the counterpoint is that maybe we don't have to | sanitize every damn thing in the world, since a sanitized world | isn't a healthy world - and perhaps contributes to an | individual's wonky biome. | whoisburbansky wrote: | The tone of the first half of your comment had me thinking | the rest of it was about not sanitizing vocabulary, rather | than talking about the hygiene hypothesis, haha. | m463 wrote: | I think you would only transplant healthy biomes, which have | plenty of immune system action involved so that there are | plenty of beneficial bacteria, and little or no say e coli. | | It might actually be the transplanting of immune cells that | helps strengthen the recipients' immune action | Blikkentrekker wrote: | The Darwinist in me, honestly, welcomes the death of foolish | men by their own hand, who would opt-out of a life-saving | procedure for but a dislike of it's name. | [deleted] | surfsvammel wrote: | Hacker news is one of the places where I often value the comments | more than the linked articles themselves. But wow. This thread is | full of pseudo-science type reasoning. Let's be careful. We have | science and the scientific methods to investigate things like | this. It's worked very well for us for a long time, let's try to | have som faith in it. | [deleted] | npsimons wrote: | > Hacker news is one of the places where I often value the | comments more than the linked articles themselves. But wow. | This thread is full of pseudo-science type reasoning. | | It's been this way for years. HN is really quite good when it | comes to things in their wheelhouse (software, tech companies), | but hilariously bad about diet and related issues, I suspect | because it's a sore spot for many and they are in denial. | pas wrote: | Diet is one of the things that's absolutely full of bad | science, because it's hard to study. So claiming HN is | somehow in denial implies there's an amazing scientific | consensus. (Also even if we take the best studies at face | value the relative risk differences are ridiculously low | between diets. [At least as far as I know.]) | npsimons wrote: | > (Also even if we take the best studies at face value the | relative risk differences are ridiculously low between | diets. [At least as far as I know.]) | | See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm willing to | bet that just like me, you're not an expert in that field. | And there are people who are experts in the field, | reviewing the literature, and have come up with a pretty | good consensus. | tryonenow wrote: | I think it's reasonable for laymen to be skeptical of | expert consensus in soft, non-experimental fields, | especially when the consensus frequently changes | significantly and is strongly influenced by industry, | e.g. the views on dietary sugar/fat, cause of | alzheimer's, lobotomies... | | Particularly when consensus is not unanimous. | pas wrote: | I never claimed I was. | | I'm basically regurgitating the Bad Food Bible book | (written by Aaron Carroll, the guy who hosts | HealthCareTriage). | npsimons wrote: | Well, I'm regurgitating a Dr. Greger of | https://nutritionfacts.org, who is constantly reading | studies and papers to get to the bottom of dietary | science. You're welcome to spool through his hours of | video on YouTube on the subject (where he quotes excerpts | from studies he's read), or maybe just start with this | one on gut flora and obesity: | | https://nutritionfacts.org/video/gut-flora-obesity/ | | Sources are under the video. | pas wrote: | Yes, so. The linked video is about a n=30 observational | study. "Diet science" is full of this. (At least this | study explicitly noted that no inference regarding health | outcomes were made.) | | The guy is fighting the good fight (against USDA and so | on), but this is still the HN is hilariously bad at diet | and related issues. | breakfastduck wrote: | Dude there is far from a 'consensus' in this field. | | Recommending reading one guys opinion on it sorta proves | the point. | bdauvergne wrote: | What if there is no field to talk about ? Most people | cannot believe that some part of science are not as | advanced as others. But there are good reasons, nobody | care enough to throw enough money at tit. Look at obesity | in the US, if someone cared about it, if would be fixed. | Much more money was thrown at advancing internal | combustion motors than improving diet of the average | citizen of the USA. | Lopiolis wrote: | Well, more than diet, anything that isn't technical in | nature. Economics, (geo-)politics, biology (particularly | humans), etc. There's a lot of that fallacy around here that | being knowledgeable/smart in one area means that obviously it | transfers to every other field. | npsimons wrote: | I just remember a while back fecal transplants came up here | (and other forums I frequent) as a "treatment" for obesity, | as they found different gut flora between obese and healthy | weight populations. So many people were thinking they could | get a fecal transplant to cure their obesity, not stopping | to ask maybe _what_ was causing gut flora to be different | between obese and healthy weight populations. | | And as for diet, the studies are out there. I'm no expert, | but I listen to people who could credibly be argued are (as | one example Dr. Greger who reads tons of studies and cites | them in his videos), and typically their advice comes down | to common wisdom that people just don't want to hear: eat | _food_ , not too much, mostly _plants_. | neuronic wrote: | I mean, full agreement here but the... that science should be | done and not financially starved because the outcome serves no | long-term financial interests. | m463 wrote: | I'm from the internet and I might not actually have a science | degree, but I _do_ have a Ph.D. in the thousands of beneficial | uses of hemp. | hinkley wrote: | The scientific method works at a very slow pace and goes even | slower when public opinion is against an idea. | | We have a lot of known unknowns about gut biota. And a lot of | people whose gut biota are literally killing them. And a lot of | friends and family of those people. They are of course going to | be frustrated. Especially when they look at how long those | question marks have existed. Get to it already! | | Feyman's wife died while the antibiotic that saved people like | her was in drug trials. Can you imagine being that close to a | cure and missing it? When I read about people dying of | infections mid century I have to pull up my calendar and just | pity them a little bit more. | surfsvammel wrote: | I am not sure what you mean by 'the scientific method is | slow'. Compared to what, really? Just winging it? But I think | I see what you mean. And yes, science do take time. From | discoveries in basic science, all the way to clinical trials | and then treatment approval, there is significant lead time. | And, of course, it is especially sad for those who suffer | when treatment seem to be just around the corner. | | But the alternative is surely worse; to not test, to not | review or to base treatment on other things than facts. | | And, one more thing. The speed at which we have scienced the | shit out of Covid (the amount of science that we have done in | response to this virus) is, at least to me, astounding. If we | succeed, which it looks like we will, to win this battle | using the vaccines which are already available, it, not only, | is in favour of science in fact being very quick, but could | also be considered one of humanities greatest feats. | robocat wrote: | > The speed at which we have scienced the shit out of Covid | | Alternatively I have been absolutely appalled at how slow | our institutions have been to respond correctly in so many | ways. | | 1. Anosmia: it took months before I heard about it, and | months before it got added to lists of symptoms. A common | and distinctive signal back before we had testing was an | opportunity lost. | | 2. The emphasis on hand washing and the de-emphasis of | transmission by air... dangerously retarded. | | 3. The whole face masks bullshit - all the probabilities | pointed towards their use being beneficial... because even | small reductions to the speed of transmission can reduce | exponential growth. | | 4. The lack of information about real-world testing of | transmission - presumably virus transmission was tested on | people in more than one authoritarian country, yet I never | saw the results of that testing surface. | | The above are only some of the significant delays that I | saw in the transmission of science and fact during the | epidemic, and I haven't even really looked into the topic | in depth (mostly I just skimmed HN for information). | [deleted] | ngngngng wrote: | Isn't all science "pseudo-science type reasoning" before | someone goes out and proves/disproves it? I don't see a problem | with some curious conversation. | tkzed49 wrote: | there's nothing wrong with sharing anecdotes, but it's not | science until someone actually does the "proving/disproving" | in a convincing way. | surfsvammel wrote: | Well, it might be wrong to share anecdotes, IMO. We should | always be careful when communicating online as we don't | know who we might be communicating with. Someone might take | those anecdotes as proof that something works, and might go | out and do something that might not be safe. | surfsvammel wrote: | No. There is difference. Science works by making | observations, making hypothesis and then testing those. The | result is some kind of knowledge which is useful for making | predictions. | | Reasoning in this world is based on that. We only make | predictions when something is tested, established or pure | fact. | | What I mean by pseudo-science type reasoning is; not based on | any fact, nor any position which has been tested | (scientifically), nor any established knowledge. Instead it | is often based on anecdotes or the reason is motivated or | heavily biased. | | Frankly, I don't care too much about bad reasoning. But when | there is risk that it might be understood as recommendations, | and it might be unsafe for someone reading it, then I think | it's dangerous. | bluSCALE4 wrote: | How about calling it the anti-douche. Who wouldn't want an anti- | douche. | jonplackett wrote: | Holy shit! That's amazing. | npsimons wrote: | I'm curious if you could get the same effects by changing your | diet, and what that diet is. I suspect this is at the bottom of | all gut microbiome "problems", and furthermore that any fecal | transplant will only have temporary effects if one continues to | have a bad diet. | [deleted] | kbelder wrote: | I think antibiotics can cause a lot of problems. You get strep | throat, take antibiotics, and it kills off something in your | gut you've had all your life. How do you get it back? Eat | yogurt? That's nonsense. There are supplements that supposedly | help rebuild your intestinal flora, but I'm pretty skeptical | that they work. | | So a bad diet can definitely kick your microbiome out of whack, | but I don't think that's the only cause. | npsimons wrote: | > So a bad diet can definitely kick your microbiome out of | whack, but I don't think that's the only cause. | | True, but I think it's just one of those truths people know | but don't want to hear: a baseline of good health is | behaviors/habits that boost it, and that includes things like | getting enough good sleep, adequate exercise and a diet that | is not just _enough_ food (not too little and not too much), | but _the right kind of food_. If we 're going to go down the | path of judging some gut flora as "better" than others, it | behooves us to discover _how_ to get those gut flora, and it | only makes sense a large part of that is what we ingest. | | And yeah, I'm opposed to overuse of antibiotics too. In the | same vein, fecal transplants seem like a quick fix that might | be justifiable (ie cancer cases), but shouldn't be seen as a | "get out of jail free card" for bad habits. | f430 wrote: | What exactly is a fecal transplant?? This isnt the first time I | heard of this technique and it seems to have wide reaching | effectiveness. | TylerE wrote: | It's what it sounds like. | | They take feces from one person, and then place it into the gut | of the recipient, either via enema or a tube down the nose and | through the stomach. | f430 wrote: | whoa thats what I suspected but hoped it was just a small | transfer via probe...omg but I guess its quite effective in | multiple medical papers I've read | giarc wrote: | They actually halted a random control trial at one point | since the treatment arm was so successful it was unethical | to continue and not provide treatment to all. | gus_massa wrote: | I can't read the paper now. How many persons were in the | control group and how many in the intervention group? | giarc wrote: | I don't think the paper is paywalled. | | https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1205037 | gus_massa wrote: | >>> _They actually halted a random control trial_ [...] | | Thanks, but I misunderstood and though that you were | commenting about the current treatment against cancer. | TylerE wrote: | As transplants go, it's not even in the same state, never | mind ballpark, as any other. | | No slicing you open, no lifetime of immunosuppressing anti- | rejection drugs... | [deleted] | tyingq wrote: | I wonder why there isn't an easy way to do it with a time- | release coating/capsule. | | Edit: Apparently there is...they are called "FMT Capsules". | war1025 wrote: | I'm really not sure whether I'd rather have a poop enema or | willingly swallow poop even if contained in a capsule. | | I would guess it's "possible" but also there is probably a | lot of logistics involved in "take my poop and put it into | your guts". | | Back fifteen or so years ago I saw a video somewhere | talking about some people doing this to help with an immune | condition. What I remember was basically, "We put my poop | in a blender with some water to thin it out, and then they | stick a tube up their butt and pour that in" | | Sounded like it wasn't just a one time deal, more something | that needed to happen on a regular basis. | chordalkeyboard wrote: | > I'm really not sure whether I'd rather have a poop | enema or willingly swallow poop even if contained in a | capsule. | | Whats really disgusting is that your insides are already | full of poop cause thats where its made. | war1025 wrote: | > already full of poop cause thats where its made. | | Your intestines are full of poop. Your stomach isn't full | of poop. Your throat and mouth aren't full of poop. | | Vomiting is very unpleasant. Vomit isn't poop. The | thought of poop in your mouth is very unpleasant. | | I really don't understand how a comment stating, "I | really think it would be a toss-up for me which method I | would prefer" is down-voted through the floor. | giarc wrote: | I replied to the same comment, but to your point about | willingly swallow poop pills, I've been there when many | patients are tasked with taking this. I'd say patients | have no issue with the pills since it typically means | they've had debilitating diarrhea for 6 months or longer | if they are at the FMT stage. When I was involved, the | treatment was around 20-30 pills in one go. The hardest | part for most was the amount of water they drank trying | to swallow that many pills at once. One guy we treated | had IBS and had been taking pills all his life. He downed | the 30 pills in like 5 minutes and was done. He came back | the next day and said he had never felt better in 20 | years. For some, it's like a miracle drug. | hammock wrote: | They are working on it | https://designershitdocumentary.com/fmt-capsules-pills/ | giarc wrote: | There is! And I was part of that work! The tough part is | getting the pill through the stomach where the pills are | designed to disolve. Typically we double encapsulate the | pill to get it to the intestine. Dr. Louie actually tested | this by filling the pills with radio opaque liquid (barium | I think) and swallowing the pill and taking serial xrays to | see when the pill dissolved. | | My involvement with this was as a donor. | | https://ucalgary.ca/news/poop-pill-capsule-research-paves- | wa... | samstave wrote: | A donor of what exactly - of your poop? What a weird | thing... | | "Looking for a donor of fecal matter to participate in a | study on transfer of poop from donor to host" | | Is that the ad you responded to? | giarc wrote: | Yes, I would poop into a container and deliver it to the | lab. I work in Infection Control in the hospital where | the lab is. I worked with Dr Louie all the time so I was | an "insider", I didn't respond to any ads. For the | longest time he always used family donors (husband would | provide for wife or something) and I was one of the first | non-related donors. I was a good candidate since I worked | on site, was willing to undergo ongoing blood work and | stool cultures, was young, healthy etc. | | My go to story is there once was a patient come up from | California for treatment. Around this time there was a | big news article about a patient who gained a ton of | weight after receiving a transplant from her overweight | mom. The patient, due to her condition, was on a strict | diet and therefore it was assumed the weight gain was due | to the transplant from an overweight person. That began | the speculation that transplants could be used for weight | control etc. Anyways, I went down to the lab to drop off | my sample and the lab tech said to the patient "Hey, your | donor is here, want to meet him?" and she came running | around the corner, looked me up and down and just said | "he's good". I felt like a real life page from a sperm | donor book! This patient had heard the news and was happy | I was not overweight. | exolymph wrote: | Idk why this was downvoted, samstave just asked some | follow-up questions that elicited an interesting | response. Upvoted to attempt some counterbalance. | umvi wrote: | It's exactly what it sounds like... when you put someone else's | poop up your butt | samstave wrote: | Go on.... | Engineering-MD wrote: | It is generally an oral supplement rather than a reveal | suppository. | chordalkeyboard wrote: | It's exactly what it sounds like... when you eat someone | else's poop under the supervision of a team of physicians | _Microft wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_feces#Fecal_transplants | stickydink wrote: | Exactly what it sounds like. Fecal matter from a healthy | person, transplanted into the GI system of an unhealthy person. | Benefits come from all the "good bacteria" living in there that | are missing. | | YouTube has some deliciously informative videos if you'd like | to watch a real surgery! | samstave wrote: | " deliciously informative videos" | | I don't think that's the correct phrasing for this particular | subject... | PointyFluff wrote: | Uh...there's no surgery involved. | stickydink wrote: | I'm not incredibly familiar, but I watched some of those | tasty videos I referenced. It certainly looked like there | was somebody in there unconscious, with a Dr gowned up. | Tubes and cameras and robot arms inserting various things. | | Depends where you draw the line at surgery VS procedure, | does something have to be cut? Who knows! Either way, I | recommend not DIY'ing this one. | [deleted] | 1337shadow wrote: | See full procedure details in 20 seconds here | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKX2afmgcEM | tonyedgecombe wrote: | I don't want to watch that video. | nathancahill wrote: | I knew exactly which video this was before clicking. | programmarchy wrote: | > Davar and colleagues collected fecal samples from patients who | responded extraordinarily well to anti-PD-1 immunotherapy and | tested for infectious pathogens before giving the samples, | through colonoscopy, to advanced melanoma patients who had never | previously responded to immunotherapy. The patients were then | given the anti-PD-1 drug pembrolizumab. And it worked. | | It's pretty crazy that your gut biome can change the way your | body responds to skin cancer treatment. | | Could this work for basically anything immune-related? Maybe | people who got COVID but were asymptomatic could donate some | poop. | tharkun__ wrote: | This is something that I've been thinking for quite some time | now (i.e. pre-COVID and just generally health related). | | I was on lots of anti-biotics as a kid and I turned from skinny | to fat at some point. We know already from | experiments/treatments being made that fecal transplants can | make a fat person skinny for example (no I didn't do that :)) | | Personally I transformed my life from being very lethargic and | not being able to tolerate anything but small amounts of | certain foods and also alcoholic beverages without getting | major migraines by getting the right probiotics. To give you an | idea, eating leftover lasagna two days in a row was a sure fire | way to get a migraine, as was drinking a bottle of alcohol-free | beer and anything with alcohol was even worse. Even just small | amounts. We're talking migraines where you feel like you're | gonna puke and my eyesight was affected as well. | | I felt really sick for about 2 weeks after starting the right | probiotics. And it wasn't just any probiotics that would do. I | tried out different ones, until I found a specific one that | mainly differs in one bacterium from all the others I tried. | Bacillus subtilis in case you're wondering. During that time my | then current microbiome would've been fighting with the newly | introduced strains. After that, I was no longer lethargic and | slowly but surely I was able to tolerate foods in normal | quantities again. Leftover lasagna is just awesome now, like it | should be! | | So yeah that's just a personal anecdote on how gut health can | really eff up your life and health. So I can very well believe | that people with a 'broken gut' would die more easily from | COVID or get infected more easily with other things as well. | But where's the money in simply fixing peoples guts? Isn't it | 'better' if we make them sick, so we can then prescribe them | stuff? | Matrixik wrote: | Thank you for mentioning Bacillus subtilis. Will look into it | more. | dashmeet wrote: | What supplement/brand/company do you use? | [deleted] | samstave wrote: | The question I have is how to evaluate the 'proper?' gut biome | / fecal "recipe" to get the desired outcome?/Expression? | | So what characteristics would a good vs bad donor gut | biome/fecal biome be? | Bjartr wrote: | > The question I have is how to evaluate the 'proper?' gut | biome / fecal "recipe" to get the desired | outcome?/Expression? | | You and the rest of the medical community. This is largely | still an open question. | [deleted] | TeaDrunk wrote: | tl;dr: In a proof-of-concept phase 2 trial, researchers | transplanted gut bacteria from patients who responded | extraordinarily strongly to immunotherapy into the gut of | patients who are completely nonresponsive to the therapy. N = 15, | with 6 people experiencing reduction of tumors or stabilization. | | It's definitely not a silver bullet... I feel like we still don't | understand enough about the mechanisms surrounding the gut flora. | This is flailing in the dark. Fingers crossed these results | encourage more research into the biological chemistry behind | this. | ExcavateGrandMa wrote: | Okay dudes, now you know what you have to do if you feeling short | with money :D | | SELL YOUR FRESH CRAPs :D | ChuckMcM wrote: | When a possible link between gut biomes and disease progression | was first proposed, the response by the established science was | pretty harsh. | | That people studying these links persisted and have created many | reproducible experiments that demonstrate the connection is a | testament both to perseverance and to science. | | When people try to argue that science is "people making things | up." as a reason for disbelieving science that challenges their | beliefs, I use this example of fecal transplants as a real world | case of how scientists challenge, confront, debate, and | incorporate changes into their world views through process, | review, and reproduction. | quercusa wrote: | Same story for bacteria and stomach ulcers. | ChuckMcM wrote: | And I know at least one researcher who started looking more | deeply into the impact of the gut biome on health _because_ | of the demonstrated link between bacteria and ulcers. | | At some point, I would expect a fecal sample/biome to be part | of one's periodic physical so that we could build a data set | of biomes + medical history database that is a bit more | comprehensive than the voluntary ones that exist today. | mirekrusin wrote: | Is that true? Hitler was doing it, so it must have been known | for a while. | LinuxBender wrote: | I hope that some day they break down the science in this method | to find the exact cultures that are providing benefit. Many | performance athletes already use probiotics rectally and are said | to gain advantages from doing so. I've only seen limited | scientific papers on the topic and more often anecdotal responses | from athletes. Well now I have a weekend research project. | jlizzle30 wrote: | As an anecdote, I'm close to someone who had issues w/ their | microbiome causing havoc for a year after taking antibiotics. | They tried all kinds of diet and probiotic treatments to no | avail. In desperation, a doctor prescribed an experimental | approach where they'd take antibiotics again to kill the 'bad | bacteria', then go on a heavy probiotic regimen. This worked | thank god. | PointyFluff wrote: | So awesome. | | So gross. | tartoran wrote: | I wonder if it could be simply inserted into the other end | instead of being swallowed. Perhaps a suppository would do? | byset wrote: | Says in the writeup that the transplant is done "through | colonoscopy" so it is "inserted in the other end", right? | | I have heard of fecal transplants being effective administered | orally via capsule. Though that might be a bitter pill to | swallow, I might prefer it to the other route... | tartoran wrote: | Sorry, I skimmed through and didn't get the colonoscopy part. | I guess the bitter pill to swallow is no longer part of the | practice though easier than a colonoscopy it was just | grossing me out. | im3w1l wrote: | Is immunotherapy orally administered? Could it be simply changing | the absorption efficiency? | Vaslo wrote: | I just can't even fathom having an original idea like this and | then even more so having it work. Who thinks of this shit? | fastball wrote: | > Who thinks of this shit? | | Heh. | poopcrusader wrote: | There's been information about the power of FMT floating around | out there for a while now. | | I'm convinced that pharmaceutical corporations have nothing to | benefit from more effective treatments, which could largely be | why we see smaller players doing these types of honorable and | groundbreaking studies. | | One study I'd love to see is the effect of treated tap water on | our microbiome. If tap water is designed to kill micro- | organisms, what could it be doing inside us? | feanaro wrote: | Given that there's a large body of work detailing the | importance of the gut microbiome, which has effects on | everything from cognition to the immune system, it wasn't as | huge a stretch as it might seem. Perhaps only when you're not | aware of the incremental progress so it may seem as a huge | leap. | jb1991 wrote: | The article states that an AI algorithm directed the | researchers to gut bacteria. | mechnesium wrote: | Edit: Not medical advice. | | Cancer is largely a failure of the immune system, and it is well | known that nearly 70% of the immune system lives in the digestive | tract. Sometimes the microbiome in that digestive tract gets | messed up, paving the way to bowel issues, autoimmune disorders, | general illness, and cancer. Studies have even shown that poor | gut health is linked to many mental health issues such as | depression and autism. Populating the digestive tract with | healthy microbes from another person is a good way to jumpstart | it again. | | I've actually done probiotic and fecal transplant enemas at home | and put my UC into remission without the need for steroidal or | anti-inflammatory medications. It can be easily done using | standard enema equipment, healthy donor stool, saline and oral | loperamide to increase efficacy. Expect to be able to fill the | rectum, ascending, transverse, and descending colon. There are | big risks to this, especially if you are immunocompromised. Most | people will want advice or support from a doctor. | surfsvammel wrote: | Careful. As someone with UC myself, I'd like to say, be careful | promoting procedures like this. I've looked into this myself, | quiet a bit, and although many studies show promise--as someone | in this thread also previously said; we are not yet sure what | is going on--it is not clear that poop transplants (especially | administered at home by oneself) is safe. | | Don't do this yourself. Speak to your doctor. | mechnesium wrote: | Thanks. It's understandable that it's radical so I put a | little note that I'm not offering medical advice. | leptoniscool wrote: | Wow that's amazing! One reason that I suspect these therapies | aren't more widely used is the lack of funding. Big | pharmaceutical companies have millions to spend on R&D and also | fund studies. | mechnesium wrote: | Yeah. Admittedly, I was frustrated with having to rely on | $1000+ a month prescriptions to treat my symptoms rather than | the underlying cause. My venture into researching the human | microbiome and homemade enemas was sprinkled with "danger" | and "don't try this at home." Being riddled with daily bouts | of diarrhea caused by my UC, I wasn't go to just sit idly by. | | Enema kits are sold in grocery stores and are perfectly safe | if not used regularly. There was simply no reason for me to | believe that breaking open some probiotic capsules or putting | a little poop in that enema is going to kill me. More than | likely, toxic megacolon or colon cancer is going to kill me | if I didn't take the risk. | | I consider myself a body hacker, having experimented with | nootropics for many years before. Hacking of any kind | involves some level of risk, and it's risks that I'm willing | to take to become better. | hinkley wrote: | Given all the weird shi... phrasing... stuff that has happened | with performance enhancing drugs I have to wonder if there aren't | some sports doctors out there who know a bit more about this | stuff than they're letting on... | billiam wrote: | Will I now be obligated to yell at someone who cuts me off on the | freeway "Eat sh%t and DON'T die?" | crawdog wrote: | There has been a recent paper published around treatment of | melanoma cancer with positive results as well. Interesting to see | how the research in this area progresses. Hopefully making more | of these devastating cancers more treatable. | | https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6529/602 | djrogers wrote: | Not sure if you read the linked article, but these appear to be | the same study. | crawdog wrote: | My bad! Quickly glanced - you are correct. | danans wrote: | Now that's not too shitty an outcome! ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-02-05 23:00 UTC)