[HN Gopher] Typing, RSI, and what I do differently
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Typing, RSI, and what I do differently
        
       Author : robotmay
       Score  : 37 points
       Date   : 2021-02-11 17:27 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (senryu.pub)
 (TXT) w3m dump (senryu.pub)
        
       | anderspitman wrote:
       | My physical therapist's best guess is that I have pinched radial
       | nerves in both arms. Things that have helped the most:
       | 
       | 1. Stretches and nerve glides every couple hours.
       | 
       | 2. Ergo keyboard[0], focused on separation so my arms are more
       | squared with my body, and on keys that are easy to press (no more
       | mechanical keyboard for me).
       | 
       | 3. Foot pedals for CTRL/SHIFT/ALT. I hacked together[1] a custom
       | solution with an arduinio and a couple industrial pedals.
       | 
       | My advice is start working with a PT as soon as you notice any
       | pain or numbness in your arms or hands. I'm to a sustainable
       | point now but I should have taken action months before I did.
       | Maybe I could have beat it completely. Still hoping I will at
       | some point. You're probably going to need to take some serious
       | rest. It can be hard with deadlines or other work pressures, but
       | try to think long term.
       | 
       | A gram of prevention is worth a kg of cure.
       | 
       | [0]: https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/
       | 
       | [1]: https://github.com/anderspitman/ergo-pedals
        
       | lamename wrote:
       | I developed some RSI in my right followed by both wrists/fingers
       | last fall due to overuse and poor body/hand/arm posture.
       | Thankfully it relieved with lots of rest, but heed your body's
       | warnings lest it become permanent!
       | 
       | I took 4 days off in the middle of reaching a deadline just to
       | correct my ergo setup, and the rest combined with learning really
       | helped.
       | 
       | 1. Take breaks! I know it sucks, I was on a deadline. But you'll
       | be cursed with 0 deadlines later (out of work) if you push it too
       | far.
       | 
       | 2. A vertical mouse is better than a standard mouse because it
       | moves the pressure from your sensitive, soft tissue under your
       | wrist to the side. But your arm/wrist isn't immune there either.
       | This prevents strain in my wrist now, but during an intense
       | period, it doesn't help. Assuming you get the right trackball,
       | trackball > vertical mouse > standard 'flat' mouse.
       | 
       | 3. The best sources I've found are a little outdated in terms of
       | webpage but in the end helped me immensely! The Cornell Human
       | Ergo lab [0] is a big site with lots of useful information,
       | namely a quick snapshot of roughly idealized setup with points
       | like negative keyboard tilt [1], and a checklist for yourself
       | [2].
       | 
       | 4. A trackpad is in some ways better for your arm position than a
       | mouse, because it's closer to your body's midline. Of course, a
       | track pad can be worse on your fingers/hand.
       | 
       | 5. Your ergo setup and body is a system. Even if you make one
       | objectively positive change, this may result in undue pressure on
       | another part of your body. Watch your aches and pains and adjust
       | each accordingly. This usually takes iteration, or changes
       | throughout the day (i.e. time split standing vs. sitting; time
       | split using mouse, trackball, pen tablet).
       | 
       | Edit: #6 it goes without saying but is worth emphasizing: get
       | regular exercise, sleep, and eat a balanced diet. These 3 go a
       | long way. IME even brief brisk walks during breaks were better
       | than simple breaks away from the keyboard.
       | 
       | [0] http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ [1]
       | http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/DEA6510/dea6512k/ergo12tips.ht...
       | [2] http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/CUVDTChecklist.html
        
       | flarg wrote:
       | Fwiw I found dragon dictation software to be a godsend
        
       | esja wrote:
       | I've been typing for 36 years now (since I was a child), and have
       | never had RSI once, or anything close to it.
       | 
       | I think it's because I never learned to touch-type "properly". I
       | use most of my fingers, and I type very fast, but I'm not hitting
       | the "correct" keys with the "correct" fingers - I'm just
       | following whatever comfortable patterns I've burned into muscle
       | memory over all these years.
       | 
       | If someone asked me to describe exactly what I do - where my
       | hands and fingers hover, which ones hit which keys, etc., I
       | wouldn't be able to answer properly without first filming myself.
       | 
       | I did once try to learn to touch-type "properly". It didn't feel
       | comfortable and started to hurt after only doing it for a little
       | while, so I stopped.
        
         | robotmay wrote:
         | This is very much my experience! When I developed RSI I
         | immediately went down the ergo-keyboard route, assuming I had
         | been doing something wrong, when in reality it was just the
         | change to a laptop for a long time.
         | 
         | It was quite weird filming myself and looking back at it. I
         | never even noticed that I regularly hit Y with my left hand,
         | for example!
        
         | EvanAnderson wrote:
         | I've heard the same story from others, and it's my story too. I
         | type fast enough and accurately enough to get ideas out of my
         | head. I tried to type "correctly" way back in junior high (on a
         | typewriter, no less!) but found that my personal technique
         | (developed since first using Apple II's at 8 y/o) worked better
         | (even on a real typewriter).
         | 
         | Thirty-six years typing this way and never any pain.
         | 
         | I know what you mean re: the muscle memory being burned in. It,
         | no doubt, contributes to my frustration when developers change
         | keyboard shortcuts in systems I've used for years. When
         | Microsoft decided to change "Log off..." to "Sign out" (in
         | Windows 10? 8? I can't recall...) I lost my go-to <CTRL>-<ESC>
         | <ESC> <ALT>-<F4> <L> <ENTER> shortcut for logging off. Now I
         | have to look at the screen to make sure my <S> isn't getting
         | "Switch User", "Sign Out", "Sleep" or "Shutdown". (I guess I
         | was the only person in the world who found the keyboard
         | shortcuts for those choices being dis-ambiguous to be
         | valuable...)
        
         | Diederich wrote:
         | I've been typing on a daily basis for the past 41 years. I took
         | a typing class 36 years ago, and have continued to type
         | probably 90-95% 'properly' ever since. This class paid off by
         | the way, and my accurate typing speed peaked at around 140
         | words per minute.
         | 
         | Like you, I've been blessed with never having any hint of RSI.
         | 
         | I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I think the whole
         | 'RSI landscape' is, as with most things, very complex,
         | including a lot of poorly understood or currently unknown
         | factors.
        
         | xyzzy_plugh wrote:
         | Interestingly enough I only really touch-type "properly" with
         | my left hand and that's the one I experience RSI symptoms in.
        
         | polyterative wrote:
         | I had a very bad episode before touche typing and several less
         | severe after colemak. Sheer workload seems to be the cause
        
       | eimrine wrote:
       | I saw the gif from your website and you are not touchtyping.
        
         | robotmay wrote:
         | Er, I am touchtyping, unless we have very different
         | understandings of the term. I look at the screen when typing,
         | or can type whilst holding a conversation with somebody. I can
         | even look at the screen whilst holding a camera under my chin
         | in order to film it ;)
        
           | eimrine wrote:
           | As a touchtypist, I can not understand how can you touchtype
           | while not holding your index fingers on FJ keys with sensible
           | relief. I feel very uncomfortable if neither left nor right
           | index finger touches those keys. And instead of having rest
           | on the buttons, your fingers are flying, which is ridiculous
           | from my point of view and requires an unusual level of
           | stamina. Sorry if I am wrong, just the animation is very
           | different from my experience.
        
       | nickjj wrote:
       | > In my personal experience I found home-row typing to actually
       | be unergonomic mostly because of the additional bend required
       | from moving both hands closer together.
       | 
       | I've always thought this too.
       | 
       | I've been typing a lot since about 1996 and never got into home
       | row typing. It never felt natural or comfortable and I don't have
       | abnormally sized hands either. It just felt like going against
       | the system.
       | 
       | I don't want to jinx myself but over the decades I've experienced
       | no pain or issues with any joints or muscles but I've always made
       | sure no matter what desk I used my forearms were parallel to the
       | floor and my wrists were effortlessly resting in front of the
       | keyboard. I think this aspect cannot be ignored, especially for
       | long sessions.
       | 
       | Then for typing style I mainly move my hands around while I type
       | with my all of my fingers except pinky fingers. Where like 80% of
       | typing is done with thumbs, index and middle fingers. Overall I
       | have lots of hand movement and can type without looking for just
       | about all key presses (except some combos) at about 70-75 wpm
       | with good accuracy.
       | 
       | Based on his video, my hands move probably 2x more from side to
       | side but the overall style is kind of similar. It's also similar
       | in the sense that my right hand moves more than my left.
        
         | MAGZine wrote:
         | this rings true actually.
         | 
         | I had a friend who typed with just the three fingers on the
         | right hand while the left hand hovered all of the most
         | essential letters with all five fingers. it seemed to work
         | pretty well to just have one hand hunting around the keyboard.
         | That said, it might making correct shift-usage correct which
         | can negatively affect the other hand.
         | 
         | That being said, I have my laptop on my lap right now and if I
         | have one hand on home row, and the other hand just kind of idly
         | floating over the right side of the keyboard, when you go to
         | place the fingers on home row, you can really feel in the wrist
         | and forearm the muscles pulling the hand "outward," in relation
         | to the rest of the arm. This, incidentally, is where a lot of
         | my RSI-type pain has come from.
         | 
         | The elbows going out, fore arms craning inwards, and then the
         | wrist pulling to straighten the hands back out is a recipe for
         | pain.
        
         | robotmay wrote:
         | The thing that always confused me about home-row typing is that
         | it seems oddly hard to hit Enter. My only guess to that is that
         | it works better with an ANSI keyboard than with an ISO
         | keyboard.
         | 
         | I also found I type rarely with my pinkies, and in fact I do
         | pretty much only use them for Ctrl + Shift. Using the Shift on
         | the opposite hand from the target key most of the time took
         | some practice but I think lends itself well to not having to
         | over-stretch the pinkies :)
        
       | 5tefan wrote:
       | I never learned touch typing. I am a free floater myself. Rather
       | trying to split the load evenly between my hands. Touch typing
       | position puts a strain on my wrist.
       | 
       | Incidentally I also own a Topre board. I also have my trackball
       | to the left and I have to reach out less to move the pointer. To
       | the right I would have to cover additional distance and the arrow
       | keys and num pad... I felt that in my shoulder, hence the change
       | to the left.
       | 
       | I also don't hate myself if I make a break or typying more slowly
       | occasionally.
        
       | ericbarrett wrote:
       | I had a brief but serious bout of RSI in my right wrist in my
       | early 30s. Ergo keyboards and novel typing layouts didn't help at
       | all, nor did a wrist brace. What eventually relieved it was a
       | trackball (which the author of this article also used) and a
       | wrist pad for that hand. I avoided normal mouses, trackpads, and
       | the IBM/Lenovo "mouse nipple," going so far as to bring my
       | trackball with my laptop.
       | 
       | I've switched back long since, for precision, but the RSI never
       | returned. Definitely check out trackballs if keyboard mitigations
       | aren't helping.
       | 
       | Also, buy wrist rest pads!
        
         | Xevi wrote:
         | Which trackball did you use? I have tried almost every
         | different kind of ergonomic keyboard / mouse alleviate my pain,
         | but I haven't tried trackballs yet.
        
           | robotmay wrote:
           | I have a Logitech MX Ergo which I quite like, which is a
           | thumb trackball. I'm not sure how that compares to finger-
           | trackballs though as I've never owned one, but a few friends
           | have things like the Kensington one and like it a lot.
        
             | Xevi wrote:
             | Alright, thanks. I've looked at that mouse before but I'm
             | afraid that the ball will wear out my thumb even more.
             | Maybe it's worth a shot though, or maybe I should go for
             | one of those Kensington trackballs that you use your whole
             | hand with.
        
               | robotmay wrote:
               | Yeah it's a shame they're all quite expensive really and
               | thus quite hard to try a few different ones longer term.
               | A vertical mouse might also be worth investigating
               | perhaps?
               | 
               | One thing I like about the MX Ergo is that it's very easy
               | to use reclined with it on your chest, which sounds odd
               | but can be good when you're just clicking about.
        
       | throwaway_moo wrote:
       | This is not excellent advice regarding the keyboard used.
       | Instead:
       | 
       | - learn about the risk factors: https://kinesis-
       | ergo.com/solutions/keyboard-risk-factors/ Keep in mind that there
       | are hundreds of tendons in our hands, so the pattern of
       | inflammation is very personal. Anecdotes are not your friend.
       | 
       | - use split keyboards (or any ergo keyboard with enough space
       | between hands) with inclination to limit pronation
       | 
       | - use ortholinear (aka matrix) key layout
       | 
       | - use the Dvorak layout
       | 
       | - avoid hard/mechanical keys
       | 
       | - exercise and stretch every 30 mins
        
         | accelbred wrote:
         | Typing on ortholinear is quite uncomfortable for me. I find
         | column staggered to be far better. Also why would someone
         | learning a new layout pick Dvorak when there are better
         | alternatives like Colemak, Workman, or Colemak mod-DH? Theres
         | softer mechanical keys too like silenced linears.
        
         | lawn wrote:
         | While I agree with your points I'll add that Dvorak is far from
         | the ultimate layout. For instance just try to type 'ls', which
         | as a command-line user you'll do a lot.
         | 
         | People are different and will prefer different layouts. Colemak
         | DH is a very popular and very good one, if you dislike using
         | your pinkies the BEAKL style layouts are very good and if you
         | have a split keyboard you might want E on one of the thumbs so
         | RSTHD might be good. There are many, many more and you can also
         | tweak them or create a completely new one.
         | 
         | Oh I'll add tenting as a good thing explore.
        
           | eimrine wrote:
           | Your argument about Dvorak is far from the ultimate layout
           | because of "ls" utility is strange. I think it is really best
           | layout and in regular typing "ls" is rare. If "ls" case
           | bothers you, you can just add an alias. What you can not get
           | in any other layout is alteration of right and left hands,
           | that is what makes Dvorak ultimate.
        
           | Symbiote wrote:
           | alias h=ls       alias hh='ls -l'
           | 
           | Job done.
           | 
           | I strongly disagree that Dvorak is "far from the ultimate
           | layout". Compared to Qwerty, the differences between most of
           | these ergonomic layouts is minor, so there's no reason to
           | discourage someone from using Dvorak.
           | 
           | My immediate minor criticism of Colemak-DH is typing "the",
           | or specifically "he".
           | 
           | It's a "backwards roll" of the fingers: typing ASDF on Qwerty
           | is easier than typing FDSA, but "HE" on Colemak-DH is a
           | common digraph in the wrong direction.
           | 
           | (On Dvorak, "THE" is equivalent to typing "KJD" on Qwerty,
           | i.e. the "TH"/"KJ" is in the correct direction.)
        
         | robotmay wrote:
         | The article does address both split keyboards and ortho-linear
         | layouts. I disagree with both, personally.
         | 
         | Interestingly the Kinesis article you link supports the
         | arguments I make in the article, but their solution is
         | obviously a split keyboard because that's what they sell,
         | rather than offering an alternative typing style. My typing
         | style avoids all the risks they identify.
        
           | throwaway_moo wrote:
           | > My typing style avoids all the risks they identify.
           | 
           | From the article: "This is the Way"
           | 
           | Also: "The hands should move freely over the keyboard"
           | 
           | These are good examples of why we should not listen to advice
           | based on a single example of RSI and contradicts the
           | conclusion "no universal solution for everybody"
           | 
           | A lot of people experience contraction and sometimes pains in
           | the shoulders, trapezium, arms due to moving the hands over
           | the keyboard instead of not doing so.
           | 
           | It's a well documented problem.
        
             | robotmay wrote:
             | Ah perhaps it's not clear enough that those 3 items are my
             | own ideals and I wouldn't claim them to be correct for
             | everybody. The article exists precisely because I was
             | seeing comments arguing entirely to the contrary, such as
             | "movement is bad", which I know to be wrong for me.
             | 
             | There is a lot of cognitive bias towards the one way of
             | solving RSI (buy an ergonomic keyboard) which then
             | frustrates those for whom it doesn't work. I'm hoping to
             | offer a different experience which worked for me.
        
       | jarnagin wrote:
       | A lot of people really underestimate the impact that mobility and
       | strengthening can have addressing issues with RSI. If you're
       | struggling with RSI, consider going to physical therapy as your
       | condition may be caused by a wide variety of issues that aren't
       | obvious based on the pain you're having.
       | 
       | My own experience was that I dealt with ulnar nerve RSI for about
       | a year. During that time I wore braces at night and tried just
       | about every keyboard and keyboard layout imaginable, and at best
       | I managed to keep it at bay. When I finally made up my mind to go
       | to physical therapy I learned that:
       | 
       | 1. I had postural issues which led to trapping the ulnar nerve in
       | my shoulder (not my wrist, that was just where the pain referred
       | to)
       | 
       | 2. I had deep myofascial issues that were preventing my muscles
       | and nerve from moving freely in my arm
       | 
       | 3. I had poor mobility which was contributing to decreased
       | function overall
       | 
       | Where I thought I had a localized problem in my wrist, it turned
       | out I had a systemic problem which required strengthening through
       | my entire arm, shoulder, back, neck, and core. I resolved these
       | issues through physical therapy and my ulnar RSI hasn't returned
       | since, though I now maintain an exercise routine that focuses on
       | mobility. I still use an ergonomic keyboard, but I'm now
       | convinced that the issue can't really be solved with gear.
        
         | vgel wrote:
         | Same, I had horrible RSI in my wrists and went to a hand
         | therapist (just a physical therapist who specializes in hands).
         | She made me some thermoformed wrist braces to wear at night and
         | gave me wrist massages which felt awesome, but the main thing
         | she did was prescribe a set of simple wrist exercises which
         | take about 2 minutes to do. I did them every day and my RSI is
         | much better. I still can't do certain things that require 90deg
         | wrist bends that support a lot of weight (mostly pushups), and
         | I'm planning to go back after covid to continue improving, but
         | I can actually type fine for 8 hour+ stretches at a time with 0
         | pain afterwards.
         | 
         | Most of the ergonomic typing stuff I see online is 100% bunk
         | IMO. People spend tons of money and time on ergonomic keyboards
         | and relearning how to type on different layouts just to buy
         | wrist rests and type with their hands tilted up 15 degrees.
         | Eek.
        
           | azinman2 wrote:
           | What are the exercises?
        
         | AQuantized wrote:
         | What sort of exercises do you do to help with this? I've been
         | finding it very hard to work on shoulder strength, especially
         | the scapula, without just impinging it more
        
           | Xevi wrote:
           | I'm also interested in knowing this. On top of that I would
           | like to know how often they exercise and for how long. I
           | found that doing strength training helps a bit, but the
           | relief I get from it is only temporary. I try to do it a bit
           | every day but I guess I could increase the amount each day.
        
           | jarnagin wrote:
           | I actually needed a few weeks of body work and mild exercises
           | to teach me how to correctly engage my scapula before I
           | graduated into more rigorous exercise, and I still require
           | work to keep my infraspinatus from feeling like a steel
           | cable. Things that helped the most:
           | 
           | - Prone T's/I's - Cat Cows with thoracic spine emphasis -
           | Child's pose - Open Books - Supine Chin Tucks - Dead
           | bugs/Bird dogs - Upper trapezius stretch - Levator scapulae
           | stretch - Quadruped open book - Foam rolling back (every few
           | days)
           | 
           | These all caused pain at various points, but as I learned to
           | keep my shoulder rooted in the socket and learned how to
           | correctly engage my scapula (pull down and back rather than
           | up and back) I was able to do them without pain. I also
           | learned to listen to my body and skip things for as long as
           | needed when I wasn't feeling right. Pushing through nerve
           | pain just leads to more pain. Your body will adjust
           | eventually, but it will do it at its own pace.
           | 
           | EDIT:
           | 
           | 1. Exercise frequency: daily/as tolerated
           | 
           | 2. I also scrape the muscles in my inner forearms with a
           | fascia release tool (butterknife, but you can find real ones
           | online) a few times a week and this helps tremendously.
        
           | robotmay wrote:
           | I can heartily recommend folk music and ridiculous
           | instruments ;)
           | 
           | But more seriously, I did tai-chi in the past and found that
           | a very reasonable low-impact way of developing strength in
           | various areas.
        
       | LukeShu wrote:
       | Copying an older post that I wrote
       | (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20665338) in case it helps
       | anyone (as the OP writes, there's " _no universal solution for
       | everybody_ "):
       | 
       | ----
       | 
       | I (25yo), also had pain in my right pinky and wrist, starting
       | about 2 years ago.
       | 
       | I spoke with a friend who had surgery for Carpel Tunnel Syndrome,
       | and knew a lot more about this than me. What he told me:
       | 
       | * Carpel Tunnel Syndrome affects the thumb/index-finger; pain in
       | the pinky side of your hand could be caused by the ulnar tunnel
       | or the cubital tunnel.
       | 
       | * He does sets of 10 of these stretches every hour
       | https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cl-rpkmgPqI/UeUWdH4oMUI/AAAAAAAAA...
       | https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8a/a4/2c/8aa42cc5c059cabf9aeb...
       | 
       | * "One of the biggest things you can do is splint your wrist at
       | night. This is one of the best wrist braces I've found:
       | https://www.amazon.com/Mueller-Fitted-Wrist-Brace-Number/dp/... "
       | 
       | My experience:
       | 
       | - I got a foot pedal, and put Alt, Ctrl, Shift, and Enter on it
       | (and for a while pulled those keycaps off the right side of my
       | keyboard, to force myself to learn to use the foot pedal). This
       | allowed me to keep using a computer while I recovered, and
       | allowed me to avoid stressing my pinky after I recovered. I wrote
       | a bit about that on Reddit
       | https://reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/7remed/has_anybody_used_... .
       | 
       | - The tendon gliding exercises were very helpful. The other
       | stretches didn't seem to make much difference. While I was
       | recovering, I tried to do them hourly. I now only do them if it's
       | acting up.
       | 
       | - I second his endorsement of those wrist braces. When using
       | them, I wear them at night, and when typing if I can (I can use a
       | desk keyboard with them, but can't use my laptop with them).
       | While I was recovering, I used them all the time, now I only use
       | them if it's acting up.
       | 
       | - More recently, I got a Keyboardio Model 01, which puts the
       | modifiers on the thumbs, not the pinkies. The foot pedal is
       | entirely unnecessary with it; it puts much less strain on my
       | hands.
       | 
       | Nowadays, my wrist acts up maybe once a month or two.
        
         | shocks wrote:
         | IME wrist braces don't help, they just lead to muscle atrophy.
         | 
         | I picked up rock climbing and my RSI hasn't come back since.
        
           | LukeShu wrote:
           | I suspect that most of the value I got from them was wearing
           | them while sleeping, in that they protect the blood flow to
           | my wrists from being cut off by me lying on my arms.
        
             | d6e wrote:
             | My doctor said the same thing. Only use braces while
             | sleeping.
        
       | twobitshifter wrote:
       | I recently bought a Microsoft ergonomic keyboard. It's a split
       | design but still one piece. It took me about a week to get used
       | to. As a touch typist I had one key that Microsoft stuck on the
       | left, that I type with the right, B, which is dead center on the
       | bottom row on a usual keyboard. I don't know which hand it
       | canonically belongs to but it didn't take me long to switch.
       | 
       | I purchased this more proactively and it's probably unnecessary.
       | I did get RSI symptoms while working preCOVID. When I switched to
       | work from home, I used my Microsoft media keyboard and Logitech
       | mxMaster mouse. The RSI went away. We briefly returned to the
       | office and within a week I was getting pain in my right hand
       | again. The office mouse was a cheap flatter Logitech mouse with
       | no tilt or thumb test. I believe that mousing about was the
       | actual cause of my RSI and that the improved grip of the mxMaster
       | was enough to fix it. Like OP sometimes it can just be small
       | changes.
        
         | test1235 wrote:
         | supposedly the b key belongs to the left 'cos columnally(?)
         | it's below the g key
        
       | dwdz wrote:
       | I'm using this[1] and I love it. Adding 1 column of spacing
       | between two hands is real game changer. I've tried Colemak and
       | Workman before but I found qwerty-wide to be more comfortable
       | than both of them. It's also much easier to learn, especially if
       | you're Vim user.
       | 
       | [1] https://www.keyboard-
       | design.com/letterlayout.html?layout=qwe...
        
       | ping_pong wrote:
       | I guess everyone is different. For me, laptops especially the
       | MacBook help. The mouse was the problem for me, and when I
       | started getting RSI over 20 years ago, I discovered that when I
       | used a pen-type mouse, everything cleared away. It was because I
       | was using the mouse at the side of the keyboard and that was
       | causing my wrist to twist, which ended up aggravating the nerve
       | in the wrist that ran up and down my arm.
       | 
       | I ended up typing on an ergonomic keyboard, with my mouse in the
       | middle. Whenever I need my mouse, I would push away my keyboard
       | and use the mouse where the mouse is right in the center with my
       | hand slightly askew at a similar angle to where I write with a
       | pencil. This prevented the nerve from being twisted, and my RSI
       | has largely gone away since then.
       | 
       | The MacBook keyboard with the mousepad also in the middle seems
       | to work well for me as well. The main thing is ensuring I don't
       | twist my hand away away from my body that causes the nerve to get
       | compressed.
        
       | superjan wrote:
       | By far the best ergonomics advice I got was: do what feels
       | natural to you. For me that's a trackball, and home row typing
       | with my lower arms resting on the table. I have had episodes
       | where I was dangerously close to RSI, but after that last piece
       | of advice those troubles were over. For a while, I stockpiled
       | Trackman marble trackballs, but the MX ergo is finally a good
       | successor. Split keyboards did not make that much difference. And
       | watch out with weak laptop keyboards: if the keys go too easy,
       | you increase muscle tension to avoid typos.
        
       | melling wrote:
       | First saw this Using Python to Code by Voice almost 8 years ago.
       | 
       | https://youtu.be/8SkdfdXWYaI
       | 
       | I'm disappointed that we've gone nowhere in that time.
       | 
       | Anyone with early symptoms could use voice as an option, or
       | partial option.
        
         | lunixbochs wrote:
         | We've gone places in that time. There's Talon (my full time
         | project), Dragonfly/Caster, and Serenade at least. Voicecode
         | also came and went.
         | 
         | My goal with Talon is to give people at all ability/pain levels
         | a high quality free keyboard/mouse alternative - you can use it
         | preventatively, or if you start to feel discomfort, or if you
         | can't type at all.
         | 
         | I also linked some more recent talks / blog posts in this
         | comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26118864
        
       | elanning wrote:
       | I have suffered from fairly bad RSI/tendonitis issues since my
       | early 20s. Now a days I have a split keyboard and use wasd keys
       | for my mouse, which is slower, but causes less pain. I would not
       | wish this kind of pain on anyone. It has greatly negatively
       | impacted my life. Hopefully future treatments will give some
       | help, the current treatments are very lackluster.
        
         | Xevi wrote:
         | That makes two of us. For the last year I have considered
         | abandoning my job as a developer. 8 hours in front of the
         | computer 5 days a week really wears you down. I do find
         | temporary relief after having exercised. But the pain quickly
         | returns if I start working again, even if I have a standing
         | desk, ergonomic keyboard, touchpad and mouse.
        
           | elanning wrote:
           | Sorry to hear. I hope you find something that works for you.
           | I wish I could help, but like me, I'm sure you've already
           | researched most solutions.
        
             | Xevi wrote:
             | Yes I spent a considerable amount of money to upgrade my
             | workstation to be more ergonomic. But I still have a lot of
             | things left to try. It kind of hurts to spend $400+ for a
             | single keyboard though, haha.
             | 
             | I have even thought about buying a Mac just to be able to
             | use the built-in Voice Control feature. But they are really
             | expensive, and the new Mac Mini didn't have enough ports
             | for my monitors.
        
               | lunixbochs wrote:
               | My project, Talon, is free and cross platform. It might
               | have some options that can help you:
               | https://talonvoice.com
               | 
               | Some blog posts:
               | 
               | - https://www.joshwcomeau.com/blog/hands-free-coding/
               | 
               | -
               | https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/2021/01/18/Reaper-
               | Day...
               | 
               | - http://nsaphra.github.io/post/hands/
               | 
               | Some talks:
               | 
               | - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKYWt8B9hgs
               | 
               | - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKuRkGkf5HU
               | 
               | - https://media.ccc.de/v/rc3-11436-accessible_input_for_r
               | eader...
        
         | Bishop_ wrote:
         | Yup, I have had tendonitis in my forearms since I was 19, hurts
         | pretty much all the time. Still not sure if i'm ever going to
         | get rid of it or if I need to just keep dealing with it.
        
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