[HN Gopher] Autopilot on Cars for $999 ___________________________________________________________________ Autopilot on Cars for $999 Author : cbracketdash Score : 176 points Date : 2021-02-15 20:01 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (comma.ai) (TXT) w3m dump (comma.ai) | chairmanwow1 wrote: | I bought my car with the express intent of getting a compatible | car for Comma. My comma absolutely increased the utility of my | car to me. | | Been on 3 huge road trips that I wouldn't have considered without | the device. 12 hours on the road isn't something I would do | everyday, but absolutely bearable with a comma. | exhilaration wrote: | Since you've done the research, what car works best with it? | What are you driving? | cyrux004 wrote: | Toyota Corolla 2020 (got steering sensor with decent torque | and the ability to do stop and go) | betaclass wrote: | I'm still unclear as to the benefit given that you're required | to attend to the road and it detects distracted people in the | driver's seat? | mmglr wrote: | If anything it sounds to me as if the comma provided a false | sense of security. Drawing from experience driving 9 hours is | already grueling. At hour 10, 11 or 12 would you have been able | to take control during a failure of the system? | plif wrote: | Which car and what did you drive before? And can you quantify | how much benefit you see over adaptive cruise / lane assist / | etc that is standard on many cars these days? | | I agree with your sentiment, just unsure what your point of | reference is and how much impact the fancy AI actually has. My | car (2017 model) has the features I mentioned from the factory | and is great on long trips too. | cyrux004 wrote: | This is a good video somebody did to compare the Toyota's | stock system (latest one known as tss 2.0) with Comma | Openpilot | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5-inxH92wM | chairmanwow1 wrote: | I didn't own a car before ;) I rode a bicycle and took the | train. Although I would rent cars when driving up to Tahoe or | Yosemite. | | I would say that the lane-keep systems are pretty | conservative. I tend to think of it that those systems help | you steer while comma will do it for you. | | There's a huge difference between hands and feet off the | steering wheel/pedals and needing to guide it every step of | the way. | | In particular, I think I tried a VW and a Ford's lane assist. | They would lessen the torque for turning the wheel, but | wouldn't actually make a turn by itself, which has marginal | value, but significantly less. | moonbug wrote: | there's no way this is being sold into the EU. | almost_usual wrote: | It won't be sold but it will be used, it's open source. | tdeck wrote: | Anyone know if this has killed someone yet? | yannoninator wrote: | I know for sure Tesla and Uber has. | | Seems like Comma's product requires your attention through | driver monitoring whereas Tesla's product is non existent in | this area. | | And with Uber the driver was distracted. | | edit: Downvoters, i'm a bit confused here, so Tesla and Uber | hasn't killed anybody then? | slg wrote: | Tesla has something like 4 billion miles driven with | Autopilot. This apparently has 35 million miles. (It isn't a | direct comparison, but the overall rate in the US is around 1 | death per 100 million miles driven). | | Anyone who uses these numbers to even imply this is safer | than Tesla knows nothing about statistics. It is way too | early to draw any conclusions about Comma's safety. It is | also probably too early to even draw statistical conclusions | about Tesla's safety. | yannoninator wrote: | > It is way too early to draw any conclusions about Comma's | safety. | | I definitely would not consider any car with adaptive | cruise control without driver monitoring, especially one | that touts self driving capabilities. | slg wrote: | Be my guest if you want to argue the merits of one system | over another based on some technical specs or design | decisions. My point is that the track records are not | long enough to draw any statistical conclusions and the | _Tesla and Uber have killed people but Comma hasn 't_ | argument is at best wildly misleading given the large | differences in miles driven. | yannoninator wrote: | > Anyone know if this has killed someone yet? | | > ...Tesla and Uber have killed people but Comma | hasn't... | | So no then. | | This is the correct answer, thank you. | slg wrote: | I just started an aerospace company making planes in my | garage. My company has killed less people than either | Boeing or Airbus. Does that mean I make safer planes than | either of those two companies? | | A sentence can be technically correct while also being | actively misleading. | easton wrote: | Doesn't Tesla check to make sure your hands are on the wheel | (as does Honda and I'm sure the rest of the OEM lane-assist | products) | [deleted] | LegitShady wrote: | Comma has a driver facing camera doing driver monitoring | hbarka wrote: | Tesla's product also requires driver monitoring. They | explicitly say so, so your statement is clearly false. | | Not excusing Tesla's faults but the volume of Tesla's cars on | the road compared to Comma's would probably explain the | difference in statistics. | chairmanwow1 wrote: | Tesla has had "driver monitoring" in that you had to apply | some torque to the wheel, while the comma does gaze | detection to make sure you aren't watching a movie or | sleeping. | | AFAIK Tesla is adding driver monitoring cameras. | brianwawok wrote: | Telsa has cameras in the cabin for all cars now, but have | never stated that they are going to enable them for | driver monitoring purposes. (But their code has flags | like driver_eyes_up and drivers_eye_down, so at least | it's on their mind...) | pcl wrote: | The grandparent used "driver monitoring" to mean "the car | monitors the driver to make sure the driver is paying | attention to the road", I believe. | yannoninator wrote: | > Tesla's product also requires driver monitoring. They | explicitly say so, so your statement is clearly false. | | Please state your evidence on this. | | Do they have a powerful driver monitoring system already? | | Is it being used? | odysseythrwtime wrote: | They do. You have to touch the steering wheel everything | couple minutes to prove you are focused. Video: | https://youtu.be/QNadmzp_9Ag?t=292 | yannoninator wrote: | Great, by definition a drunk or sleepy person can have | their hands on the wheel to prove they are focused. | | This system is very powerful indeed. | madamelic wrote: | Human life is sacred. Absolutely. | | but. | | If we are concerned with cars killing people, we should get rid | of cars. This FUD around self-driving == killing people will, | in the long-term, cause more deaths than the handful of | sensationalized stories about self-driving deaths. | | The only reason those car crashes get national attention is | because they were self-driving. In every other way they are | boring. Bicyclists hit by car: every day. Man killed by semi: | every day. etc. | | Do you think you'd see a bunch of FUD about a 2021 manually- | driven Chevy mystery car getting in a minor fenderbender and | equating it with the safety of the entire car industry? No. | | But: https://insideevs.com/news/333516/self-driving-chevrolet- | bol... | handedness wrote: | For some, it feels different because of the potential scale. | Watching Falcon Heavy boosters return in perfect unison is | spooky in a way watching one Falcon 9 return isn't. | | Put another way, consider all the IT professionals who advise | their relatives to wait a month or two before performing a | major OS update. When self-driving cars are the majority of | vehicles on the road, and we get our first buggy software | update that results in a string of crashes, how likely will | people be to update if they're even given a choice at all? | | Comparing human to self-driving per-mile fatality statistics | like that's the primary measure for people, while ignoring | the fact that we're looking at the first mainstream | manifestations of a coming type of threat modeling that the | species has never before had to even consider, seems a little | narrow a way to view the issue. | | For insurance companies and actuaries looking to define | collectivized risk, spreadsheets are the right way to | consider this kind of thing. For individuals who've driven | their whole lives without an accident, deciding to let | emerging tech take over for you when taking the kids to visit | grandma is going to be a significant transition in human | history. | | Consider that there are very elderly people alive today who | will still never fly on an airplane because of their early | safety records. | TameAntelope wrote: | I'm concerned about being the donor of the red ink the | subsequent regulation gets written in. | onion2k wrote: | Does this mean that if I build an AI controlled gun turret to | shoot people who walk across my lawn it shouldn't be news | when it kills someone because people get shot by other people | quite regularly? | | In my opinion the application of technology, and (more | importantly) the delegation of human responsibility to a | computer, should be something that's part of the national | conversation. | Traster wrote: | This ridiculous assertion any self-driving == better than | humna is just ridiculous too. This is a website selling a | self-driving devkit with a big "buy it now" sign that also | has a disclaimer saying "Well you're not really buying it, if | you kill someone, we've never met". | | Sure, self-driving cars that were better than humans would be | good, but what we have right now is self-driving cars that | are _maybe_ better than humans in normal conditions | (controlling for type of car, conditions etc), and completely | break down in bad conditions and often fail unsafe in | between. | | >Do you think you'd see a bunch of FUD about a 2021 manually- | driven Chevy mystery car getting in a minor fenderbender and | equating it with the safety of the entire car industry? No. | | Well of course not, because we all moved to self-driving cars | in 2017 as Elon Musk told us we would. | | There's a very simple reason we aren't worried if Bob down | the road crashes his car, it's because we're not binary | identical bob, and people haven't been systematically lying | about bob's capabilities for the last decade. | akira2501 wrote: | > sensationalized stories about self-driving deaths. | | I disagree that they're sensationalized. Self-driving systems | are designed to improve user safety, but when they end up | making mistakes that human drivers _wouldn't_ make then it's | appropriate to thoroughly investigate these systems. | | > is because they were self-driving. | | Well, precisely. We tolerate driving accidents because we | know that the mobility that cars provide end up offering far | more value to the world than the occasional accidents that we | end up tolerating. | | What's the trade with self-driving cars? What is the | technology enabling that is worth the possible additional | risks? | | > car getting in a minor fenderbender and equating it with | the safety of the entire car industry? | | I don't think that comparison offers anything interesting, | and it ignores the long and storied history of improving | automobile safety. Look into Ralph Naders "Unsafe At Any | Speed" if you really want to see people looking at "regular" | accidents and deciding there was something to be fixed. | stjo wrote: | > human drivers _wouldn't_ make | | But human drivers make a lot of mistakes that computer | drivers _wouldn't_. | | If it is safER than humans - it is better. No need to be | perfect. | stefan_ wrote: | Citation needed. So far, they have mostly driven into | static obstacles on highways, the only environment where | the vendors even allow to use their "self-driving" system | because of the overwhelmingly favorable conditions. | henrikschroder wrote: | Yes, self-driving systems will have fewer deaths/distance | driven and therefore be _statistically_ safer than human | drivers. | | But human drivers make human errors, understandable, | explainable, common errors that we are used to, and | therefore we underestimate their severity. | | Self-driving cars will make space-alien machine-logic | crazy weird and _definitely not human_ errors, they will | cause fatalities in situations where any reasonable human | wouldn 't, and that is much scarier than human errors, | and therefore we overestimate their severity. | | And that makes self-driving a very, very hard sell, it's | simply not enough to be statistically better on just the | numbers, you have to be psychologically better, and | that's a huge hurdle. | AlotOfReading wrote: | And the way you establish safety is by doing a lot of | miles with trained employees and clearly established | liability, not by releasing alpha software to the | untrained public with complete liability disclaimers. | blub wrote: | Like I've said before, I don't have any problem if those that | want to accelerate humanity's progress in this area volunteer | themselves and their families to be self-driving test | dummies. | | I'd even support the idea of building them statues, should | they meet an unfortunate hero's end. | tshaddox wrote: | Another way to think about it is to ask how many lives could | have been saved with this (or any other) system. | cyrux004 wrote: | You mean the car gets in crashes when Toyota Lane tracing | (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVyRsdILbRw) or honda lane | assist(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpgYCC8zG84) or the | nissan propilot system | (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFJ_4uEG6Og) is enabled. I am | sure there are a lot of cases. Just have to ask these car | companies to release data | jordache wrote: | I just youtubed this guy and found a 10hr video of him | programming for this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hlb8YX2-W8 | yalogin wrote: | I don't know well the system works but do they plug into the | cruise control mechanism? How are they able to provide the | automatic braking functionality? | cyrux004 wrote: | For supported cars, the car's stock AEB system still works as | intended FOr some cars, openpilot only does lateral (steering) | and doesnt do longitudinal (gas/brake), so the car's stock | dynamic cruise control is in control which includes AEB | bri3d wrote: | Yes, they intercept whichever CAN bus in the target vehicle is | used to send Adaptive Cruise Control and Automatic Lane Keeping | messages, and send their own instead. On many target cars, they | actually simply use the stock Adaptive Cruise Control and | openpilot provides only the steering (ALK). | kevin_thibedeau wrote: | Seems like it could have disastrous results if the OEM | components start talking on the bus, sharing a completely | different state. | samfisher83 wrote: | This was like 600 bucks a few years ago and they are using leco | phone from about 4 years ago. | tekromancr wrote: | Wait, founded by George Hotz? As in GeoHot? The PS3 jailbreak | guy? | nayeem-rahman wrote: | and the iphone guy | miguelrochefort wrote: | Yes. He's pretty famous for iOS jailbreaking as well. | keskadale wrote: | Yes. The very same. He does coding streams (sometimes comma | related work) on his Twitch channel (twitch.tv/georgehotz). You | can find the archive here | (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwgKmJM4ZJQRJ-U5NjvR2dg) | cbracketdash wrote: | Exactly. | sj4nz wrote: | Recent interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwcYp- | XT7UI&list=PLrAXtmErZg... | djitz wrote: | He was on again a couple of months ago. | | https://youtu.be/_L3gNaAVjQ4 | maxyme wrote: | And iPhone jailbreak guy back in the day! | qbasic_forever wrote: | Yes, same person: | https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/13/17561484/george-hotz-comm... | vimy wrote: | Yes. He has a youtube channel where he does live coding | sometimes. He also seems a bit eccentric. An interesting and | gifted man for sure. | | https://youtu.be/9LaIezgiUmw | rvz wrote: | yes. | bri3d wrote: | Yes, this has been his project for many years now - he threw a | fit and fled to China in 2016 when the NHTSA sent him a Special | Order requesting test data for the Comma One product, which he | then cancelled and released as pseudo open-source (the ML model | is still a closed black box). | RealityVoid wrote: | Can you point me to the part that is closed? Last time I | looked, there were just a bunch of weights. | bri3d wrote: | Isn't any ML model "just a bunch of weights," if you look | at it right? | | So, where does "modelV2" come from here, in the part that | plans the lateral steering action? https://github.com/comma | ai/openpilot/blob/4ace476f14bb73c354... . It's a model. A | video frame goes into the model, and somehow the desired | path comes back out. That's the core of the driving system! | | Here's an analysis of one of the closed parts: | https://medium.com/@chengyao.shen/decoding-comma-ai- | openpilo... | db374837 wrote: | Yours is the very essence of a HackerNews comment. Comma is | everything a startup should be. They are not wrapping a lame | business model in CRUD and living off of malinvestment. They | are solving ridiculously hard problem with a small team of | very smart people. Their competition has burnt billions. | Meanwhile, Comma is profitable, has a better safety model | than anyone. | | Hotz is a legend and is not running from anyone. | yannoninator wrote: | > pseudo open-source (the ML model is still a closed black | box). | | ? | | I am confused with this statement. Sure the ML model is a | black box, but it's better than closed source completely with | no model. It's more realistic to build the software yourself | than training your own self driving ML system. | | I would still class this as still 'open source'. | bri3d wrote: | The most fundamental part of the system, the one which | makes driving decisions, is not open. I did not say | anything about whether or not this was "better" than the | product being fully closed source, only that it is not | truly open, and I fully believe this. "Open source | autopilot" implies to me that the autopilot is open - that | an end-user can inspect, audit, and attempt to understand | the decisions their vehicle is making. This is not the case | for Comma - rather, it is an open-source CANbus translation | layer attached to a closed source autopilot. | jeremycarter wrote: | Not sure I'm so keen on Python driving my car. I've looked | through some of the code and I think for me to buy into the | safety the quality of the code would need to be improved, well | commented, and audited. | crazypython wrote: | > Not sure I'm so keen on Python driving my car. | | It uses CPython, which is reference counted, letting them | ensure predictable timing/hard real-time system. | teraflop wrote: | CPython includes both reference counting and a stop-the-world | tracing garbage collector. You can turn off the GC -- and | openpilot appears to do so[1] -- but the tradeoff is that any | objects that are part of reference cycles will be leaked, and | will not be deallocated until the program exits. | | Anybody want to place bets on how many of these | dependencies[2] have been audited to determine whether they | can create cyclic references? | | [1]: https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/master/common/ | real... [2]: | https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/master/Pipfile | Judgmentality wrote: | > hard real-time system | | It's running on Android. | leesec wrote: | AFAIK, The safety controls are done in the Connector piece | to the car, which uses C/C++. | gkop wrote: | You're replying to a joke I think. | qbasic_forever wrote: | Haha I just had a horrifying throught about troubleshooting | broken virtualenv installs and deadlocked dependencies, while | on the side of the road with a car that refuses to start. | sosodev wrote: | That actually sounds like a software developer horror story. | Like goosebumps for devs. | madamelic wrote: | The real Goosebumps for devs is cars willing to take | driving inputs over their built-in networks from outside | the car. | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK0SrxBC1xs | tomcam wrote: | Username noted | WrtCdEvrydy wrote: | To be honest, the driver assist can be removed with a single | connection, it just uses your car's automated parking system. | bri3d wrote: | Plus, the actual driving model is a black box, so there's | really not a lot here that's any more reassuring than any other | black box lane-keep-assist system on the market, and there's | been an active resistance to apply any form of rigor to the | system or produce any actual test data from the Comma company | for many years (with the argument being that the system is | simply an augmented lane keeping system and is just a | supplement to the driver etc. etc. and thus does not need to be | held to any sort of standard of safety or compliance - where | have we heard that one before?) | wpietri wrote: | It's not python I'm worried about here. | focusgroup0 wrote: | Would you drive to Tahoe in the snow with this? | matthewowen wrote: | Not sure that's the right question to ask. It takes two hours | to get from San Francisco to Auburn, and it's highly unusual to | have snow there. | | Setting aside that I80 is generally cleared of snow very | quickly, two hours of lane assist seems nice before tackling | the remainder. And in most cases, it's more like "use this all | the way to truckee and then drive the last 30 mins to squaw | valley" | [deleted] | almost_usual wrote: | If I can use it with my 4x4 that has a winch. | Gys wrote: | https://comma.ai/faq | | Why even ask? | | Long trips means spending a lot of time boringly driving on the | highway with clear weather. I do not care for help in the more | difficult first 15 min or last 15 min. I care about having help | during the many hours in between. | qbasic_forever wrote: | It's still a perfectly valid question, how will this system | work in the snow? Even flat featureless highways get covered | in snow and ice. | Gys wrote: | You clearly missed my ref to their faq: | https://comma.ai/faq | betaclass wrote: | But if you still need to keep your attention on the road, | what is the actual gain? | | What else can you be doing that gets past the distraction | detection? | naebother wrote: | That's interesting. I'm the complete opposite. Highway | driving is the least taxing -- I can do it subconsciously. | It's the more difficult first/last 15 mins of stop and go | that I want automated. I could care less about the highway in | clear weather. I might even enjoy that bit occasionally. | kstrauser wrote: | I generally agree, but heading north on I-5 from LA to SF | is bumper to bumper traffic constantly swinging between 50 | MPH and 75 MPH. Normal cruise control is worthless here | because you're never going the same speed long enough to be | a net benefit. I would absolutely love adaptive cruise | control plus semi-automatic steering in that one scenario. | | Stick me out in the middle of nowhere and I'm perfectly | content driving for hundreds of miles straight. I don't | find myself in that too often now, though. | chairmanwow1 wrote: | I thought the same until I tried a good L2 system. ACC and | LKA are pure value adds. Lower the number of moments where | your focus snaps back in as you are meandering out of the | lane or creeping up on the person in front of you. | [deleted] | crazypython wrote: | If self-driving companies really believed in their product, they | would bundle car insurance that only works when self-driving is | on with the product, and it would be cheaper than normal car | insurance. | gkop wrote: | In fact we have the opposite, where MetroMile advertises lower | premiums, while conveniently occupying your ODB2 port, without | providing pass-through, preventing the use of Comma's product | (this honestly makes me consider switching from Geico to | MetroMile, so I'm not subsidizing Comma customers, but there | are other issues with MetroMile...). | Black101 wrote: | Too bad they don't support Mazda | rvz wrote: | Their business is not only taken less capital, but they have also | just become profitable even with selling hardware which I find | that impressive, unlike their other competitors who have either | shutdown or have been acquired. As for their autopilot system, | they are self-hosting their deep learning training systems (Not | in the cloud but in-house) and their competition is literally off | road and non-existent (expect for Tesla). | | The consumer report on comma.ai is also very interesting and | outstanding: [0] | | One of the rare startups I've seen that are able to do this with | less funding and still profitable with hardware. That's how you | do it. Well done. | | EDIT: So the above is not true about comma.ai? As for the report, | it shows the overall results of the design of assisted driving | systems and the test results for comma.ai overall is that it is | ranked 1st. For a startup with less capital than its competition | it is very rare to see this especially with its own hardware. | | [0] https://data.consumerreports.org/wp- | content/uploads/2020/11/... | exhilaration wrote: | For the lazy, jump to page 7 of the above PDF (labeled page 6 | in the doc), the section is called "Overall Ratings Results". | The 3 highest scores are: | | 78 - Comma Two Open Pilot | | 69 - Cadillac Super Cruise | | 57 - Tesla Autopilot | | Well done indeed. | mmglr wrote: | Is the device running Android or something else? | | I understand this is marketed as a "dev kit". And I understand | the cost benefit for shipping a COTS OnePlus phone to provide the | camera and UI. But I wouldn't buy one of these due to how much | windshield visibility is blocked by the device and the wire | dangling from the headliner. | | It would be better to have the camera and wiring hidden away next | to the rear view mirror similar to how other driver assist | cameras are packaged, with a CAN connected processing box in the | glovebox (so audible chimes can be made), and infotainment screen | integration for the UI (perhaps as an Android or CarPlay app). | delightful wrote: | Is it correct Comma.AI sees this as the following statement below | appears to say, or am I missing something? If so, why would | anyone be using this product outside of a test environment that's | fully controlled? | | -- | | "Any user of this software shall indemnify and hold harmless | comma.ai, Inc. and its directors, officers, employees, agents, | stockholders, affiliates, subcontractors and customers from and | against all allegations, claims, actions, suits, demands, | damages, liabilities, obligations, losses, settlements, | judgments, costs and expenses (including without limitation | attorneys' fees and costs) which arise out of, relate to or | result from any use of this software by user. THIS IS ALPHA | QUALITY SOFTWARE FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES ONLY. THIS IS NOT A | PRODUCT. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR COMPLYING WITH LOCAL LAWS AND | REGULATIONS. NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED." | | SOURCE: | https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/devel/README.md#su... | | -- | | EDIT: Here is the terms of use too, which appears to align to the | prior legal clause above: | | https://my.comma.ai/terms | derision wrote: | it's pretty cleared being sold as a devkit. would you buy a PS5 | devkit and expect it to be exactly the same as the retail PS5? | I don't understand the issue here | grenoire wrote: | No, I would expect the devkit to be superior to the retail | product. That's not the word you're looking for. | slg wrote: | "Yeah, but, John, if The Pirates of the Caribbean breaks | down, the pirates don't eat the tourists." ~ Ian Malcolm | serf wrote: | it's interesting to read Jeff Goldblum's characteristic | staccato translated to text. | | I hadn't thought about how I would have written it out. | db374837 wrote: | Comma's driver monitoring is the best in the industry. It | is not at all unsafe. | mikeryan wrote: | I have a PS5 devkit and develop apps for it. Yes I expect it | to be exactly like the retail PS5 - or what's the point? | stunt wrote: | They are selling this product as a dashcam for obvious reasons. | The autopilot feature is an experimental feature that you have | to enable yourself on your own risk. | coddle-hark wrote: | The latest commit in the repo [0] right now is "should work" | (34ff295). Filtering by "bug" in the issue tracker gives: | | _Comma two freeze and reboot while engaged_. I recently had an | incident on the interstate where my comma two froze completely | (while engaged) and rebooted. The video froze, Comma 's | steering torque turned off, then after about five seconds in | this state, the device rebooted. | | _Zygote restarting while OP active_. So for the past couple | months, after a couple days of uptime, the comma two offroad UI | will glitch out. The buttons respond with highlighting upon | touch, but everything else stops working. ... This time, I left | the comma two to bask in its glitched state and this ended up | happening; the comma two had the spinning logo, while ALSO | still driving my car. In the video below, I nudge the wheel to | cause on purpose ping pong to prove it was still steering. | | _Spontaneous disengagement /reboot_. Cruising on expressway | and OP spontaneously disengaged and the comma2 rebooted | | _Hard braking while following the lead car_. Was following the | lead car on a highway traffic jam, that car was going without | lights so might be a reason. Braking was really hard when he | stopped, almost hit him ) I had a feeling that C2 don 't see it | at all. | | What's more worrying is that Comma's response is often either | a) declare it a hardware failure or b) basically a WONTFIX: | | _Comma support 's response is to return/exchange the unit due | to presumed hardware failure. It would be nice to know what | exactly happened but I get you can't thoroughly investigate | every anomaly. Folks at @commma feel free to close this issue._ | | _@Torq_boi said that it is not a model bug, but old known | problem with no time to brake as lead car accelerated and | braked fast. (So could INDI tuning fix that problem?)_ | | _Closing this issue since it probably was hardware failure._ | | _If it happens a lot it 's usually a hardware failure. But try | running openpilot release instead of dragonpilot before drawing | any conclusions._ | | [0] https://github.com/commaai/openpilot | | Edit: Formatting. | bko wrote: | Cool. Now do Volvo Pilot Assist. | | Comma.ai is trying to do big things and I hope they succeed. | No reason self-driving technology should be bundled with a | car and I have little faith in auto manufacturers to deliver. | | Lane assist technology exists. Look at consumer reports for a | comprehensive review [0] (comma.ai was #1 in lane assist, | above even tesla). They are open about their mistakes, issues | and tradeoffs, much more so than other companies. I don't | think its right for engineers use this as a cudgel to beat | them over the head. | | https://www.thedrive.com/news/37833/consumer-reports- | ranks-t... | Miraste wrote: | > No reason self-driving technology should be bundled with | a car | | It seems to me that there are many reasons it should be | bundled, and I'll bet that in the long run all self-driving | cars will be integrated systems. It's not a good place for | inconsistent installations or a modding mentality--imagine | multiplying Uber and Tesla's programs a thousandfold with | fewer resources and less accountability. | gkop wrote: | The difference is that Volvo does not disclaim liability. | bko wrote: | Oh I didn't know that. | | Can you point me to their liability policy? | | [EDIT] this was the best I could find | | > You are always ultimately responsible for driving in a | safe manner, even when using Pilot Assist. | | https://www.volvocars.com/uk/support/topics/use-your- | car/car... | | I don't think comma.ai should be faulted for being open. | I have trouble finding any statements on liability on any | other lane assist technology. Would love to be proven | wrong with an actual policy. | mrtksn wrote: | So it's like Tesla? | brianwawok wrote: | Like 20% of the features only for certain cars. Pretty bold | claim ;P | mrtksn wrote: | It's for 1/10th of the price, so twice better then? Just | kidding, my point is that Tesla is selling it in about the | same terms. Beta software for extra money, no guarantees. | brianwawok wrote: | Not sure that is true, you are comparing apples to | oranges. Beta on Tesla is for FSD. | | Autopilot = lane keep on the highway, it's as mature as | lane keep is on Toyota or Honda. It's also included for | no additional cost in all tesla, so it's actually 100% | cheaper. | cbracketdash wrote: | It is still very early in its development stage so they do not | want much liability. | agumonkey wrote: | did they ever ? | 23iofj wrote: | Most software developers have mostly operated in largely | unregulated domains, so there's a _MIS_ understanding of how | manufacturer responsibility works in industries like | automotive. Saying "I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING" in the | automotive software space is the product liability equivalent | of Michael Scott screaming "I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY" in The | Office. | Closi wrote: | Well, their legal technique is a little more nuanced. | | They are selling a product which is a legal and legitimate | driver assistance tool which does not have autopilot. | | You, as a user, can then modify the device by flashing | unregulated code onto it to give it autopilot code, which | is not advised by comma.ai *wink wink* | 23iofj wrote: | I expect this to end about as well as it did last time. | | 35 million miles is statistically meaningless. | database_lost wrote: | 2021 best comment so far :)) | ta8645 wrote: | Nobody ever wants any liability if they can help it. But they | shouldn't be marketing a product if they can't stand behind | it. | Justsignedup wrote: | This. I could understand an early access game "it can shut | down any time" but this is kind of my/family/friends lives | on the line. | 3327 wrote: | I remember the founder interviewed me to be CEO, when he hit | the investment and publicly insulted Papa Elon for kudos and | bad assness. The guy was a jerk on the phone and 10 mins in I | told Him to piss off and thought to myself "wow - who would | work with this guy" he's been at it since 2016 so glad it | didn't flop, but looks like he ate his words to Papa Musk. | | Nothin' like some good old humble startup pie. | slg wrote: | >THIS IS ALPHA QUALITY SOFTWARE FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES ONLY. | THIS IS NOT A PRODUCT. | | It is weird that one of the only things I see above the fold on | the company's home page is a "Buy Now" button considering they | don't actually sell "a product". | fossuser wrote: | Yeah - I don't think this would hold up, you can't really | have it both ways. | | Either you're selling something and taking some | responsibility for certain failures, or it's research that | you don't want people to use on the road. | | This comes across as them selling a product they know could | fail in dangerous ways, but they don't want to be responsible | for any of it. | | Basically, "don't use this on the road" wink wink, but we | have millions of miles driven on it and obviously expect you | to do so. | | I'd think they'd be better off with some sort of honest | policy around this that they could actually defend, but I am | not a lawyer. | Closi wrote: | It's because the standard product doesn't have autopilot, | they sell a driver assistance tool. The tool they sell does | not have autopilot. | | The device is open, and you can flash with their open | source code from GitHub to give you hacky autopilot. This | is how they get around the legal issue. | | It's like a "we sell you a legal product. We advise you | don't flash this code on it which we are hosting on GitHub | _wink wink_ " | cortesoft wrote: | Curious to see if a court would buy that argument. | Pasorrijer wrote: | Reminds me of university. "No officer, we weren't selling | tickets to the keg, we'd need a license to sell booze. | We're only selling cups for $5, the beer is free!" | almost_usual wrote: | Welcome to the world of aftermarket vehicle modifications. | parsimo2010 wrote: | I think their distinction is that they're selling the | hardware, which is capable of controlling the car just | fine. So the thing you're paying for is delivering as | promised. The software is a separate project, and you could | theoretically load whatever software on the hardware you | wanted. So the fact that the software is glitchy is not (in | the view of the company) something you can hold them | responsible for. You paid for hardware, you got hardware. | What you do with it is up to you. | | This is at least what I remember from a years old Wired | article when the comma one was being developed. | | Whether that will actually hold up in court is TBD, | considering how closely coupled the software is to the | company and hardware. | onelovetwo wrote: | I think its just them trying to fend off those people that | are looking for anything to sue companies. Telsa gets these | lawsuits all the time, but they have a bunch of lawyers to | deal with it. | buran77 wrote: | > Yeah - I don't think this would hold up, you can't really | have it both ways. | | I don't think they would have any legal problems due to | this. They sell it but clearly label it as experimental, | for research only, and urge buyers to comply with local | regulation. And the law pretty much everywhere states that | the driver is responsible for driving the car and for the | outcomes of any modification brought to the car that was | not pass homologation. | | Tesla is a real example that passed this test. Their | marketing language brands AP as "fully self driving, some | features unavailable due to local laws". The "wink wink" | may be obvious for the buyer but not in the eyes of the | law. Letting the car drive itself is the driver's failure, | not Tesla's. Tesla can at most be held responsible for | misleading advertisement and ordered not to use specific | language (as it actually happened). | fossuser wrote: | > "Tesla is a real example that passed this test. Their | marketing language brands AP as "fully self driving, some | features unavailable due to local laws"." | | This isn't true, FSD has always been a 'coming soon' | feature you can prepay for distinct from autopilot. | Autopilot has always been advanced lane assist. | "Autopilot" in planes just holds the same flight pattern | and doesn't really do anything sophisticated, autopilot | in Tesla is similar. | tjoff wrote: | > This comes across as them selling a product they know | could fail in dangerous ways, but they don't want to be | responsible for any of it. | | _Exactly_ the same as Tesla then? | | Though I do think they are both terrible reckless. | | "The driver is always responsible" might or might not be a | good enough legal scapegoat, but morally inexcusable. | fossuser wrote: | Not at all the same as Tesla. | | Tesla expects you to use its product on the road and | expects it to work within the constraints they tell you | with you also paying attention. | tjoff wrote: | > "with you also paying attention." | | So no guarantees whatsoever then. Because you are always | responsible and are always expected to recover from | anything the autopilot might ever come up with. | | Teslas do fail in deadly ways. Everyone that cares to | look knows this. Yet Tesla is fine with it, even while | knowing that humans can't reason about safety when the | car drives perfectly the other 99% of times. | jryle70 wrote: | > Because you are always responsible and are always | expected to recover from anything the autopilot might | ever come up with. | | That's always been the case for any driving assistance | systems that automakers offer, AFAIK. Do you object to | the state of driving assistance in general or just how | Tesla implements it? | luplex wrote: | Tesla guarantees that an attentive driver can safely take | control. | | Comma does not. | bko wrote: | > This comes across as them selling a product they know | could fail in dangerous ways, but they don't want to be | responsible for any of it. | | This is just a safety precaution. Why wouldn't they put | this in there? It may not hold up in court but it can't | hurt. I don't think this means they "know it could fail in | dangerous ways". | | The safety model in comma.ai is actually quite brilliant. | It can't perform any action faster than you're able to | correct and disengage. To test it, they have someone drive | while a malicious passenger seat has full access of the | controls as limited to by the software. The passenger then | messes with the steering and acceleration without the main | driver's knowledge. The driver has to prevent the actions. | The torque limit is much lower than that of Tesla or other | lane-keep assist tools. | picks_at_nits wrote: | "It may not hold up in court but it can't hurt" | | If you sell someone something with a nudge-nudge, wink- | wink, and they get killed using it, it absolutely hurts. | You may be able to weasel out of being held accountable | for it, in which case it won't hurt _you_ , but the | larger issue here is that this kind of misleading copy | can lead to people making poor decisions. | | You may have put it in the fine print that it's not a | real product, but the whole point of nudge-nudge wink- | wink is to strongly imply that it's a real product worth | real money, and thus you are going out of your way to | encourage people to try it and take chances with real | lives. | bko wrote: | What's the appropriate level of liability? | | If I buy a cell phone holder for my car, and it distracts | me and I get into an accident? What if Car Play lags and | i'm distracted and I get into an accident? What if radio | plays an ambulance and I freak out and get into an | accident? What if my sunglasses make me mistake a red | light? | | This product does lane assist. It does a good job | according to consumer reports [0], higher than all other | lane assists. It doesn't detect stop signs or traffic | lights or drive for you. It keeps your lane. It acts | predictably and gives the driver enough time to react. | | Unfortunately the liability model is messed up. I think | this product is relatively tame and should allow to | exist. And you need to pay attention. They even have | inward facing cameras to make sure you're paying | attention, more than most other companies. They do | everything they can to be safe but of course they're not | stupid and they'll put in a sweeping statement on | liability. | | This is really pushing forward the self-driving industry | and is an incredible feat of engineering. It's much more | open and transparent than every other lane keeping | software, and it's being developed with a lot of thought | and care from a talented engineer as opposed to some | nameless faceless bureaucratic commission in Ford or some | other dinosaur. | | https://www.thedrive.com/news/37833/consumer-reports- | ranks-t... | jeffreygoesto wrote: | Please don't doxx Ford engineers if you don't give any | proof. There are hard working, ethical people working who | don't want to kill people by lightheartedly pushing stuff | on the road. Just because you don't know them does not | mean they are not talented. | greenrd wrote: | I think you meant "diss", not "doxx". | picks_at_nits wrote: | I'm not gonna debate the "appropriate level of | liability." | | My point has to do with what you're signalling. If a | thing is alpha-level, and real humans can get killed, I | wouldn't let random people buy it and use it in their | cars, period. | | Informed consent is deeply problematic for a product like | this: Very few people have the expertise to look at the | code and the hardware and properly evaluate the risks, | right down to understanding which kinds of edge cases | need to be very carefully avoided. | | Unless you're vetting researchers and barring people who | just want to save a few bucks and brag their car self- | drives, you really don't know if every person who | downloads the extra software really does grasp the | implications of what they're consenting to. | | You might grasp the implications, and so might many | people in this thread, but that doesn't guarantee that | everyone does. THE AUDIENCE OF HACKER NEWS IS NOT A | REPRESENTATIVE SAMPLE OF SOCIETY. | | And we are talking about a product to be used on open | roads: In addition to informed consent from the person | who downloads the software, if they get into an accident | with another vehicle, pedestrian, or cyclist, did any of | those people consent to share the road with someone who | installed alpha software on their device? | | Morally, I can't get behind a few disclaimers and a | nudge-nudge, wink-wink for any kind of autonomous driving | tech, even if it's "just" lane-keeping. | | ------ | | Update: But to be clear, I am in favour of people | tinkering with all sorts of digital automotive tech, and | we really should find a way for lone inventors or small | teams to innovate without the "enterprise outfits" using | regulatory capture to drown small competitors with red | tape. | | I'm only arguing in favour of truly informed consent, | which I believe is tricky for driver assistance | technology being provided to arbitrary customers. | bko wrote: | So your main problem is about the disclaimer and that its | called alpha. I provided a source that rates it the best | product among all other competitors and the highest score | on keep driver engage. And they have the most miles of | any other lane assist technology. So I think its safe. I | think the alpha is more tongue in cheek and is not a term | that means anything really apart from, as you say, a wink | and a nod. | | For the laymen user, they won't read the disclaimer or | understand what Alpha means or even know that is is | "alpha". I'm an engineer and I probably won't ever really | audit the code. I will do my research like most other | people, read online reviews or testimonials like Consumer | Reports. | | So are you against all lane assist technology? How about | auto-braking? Anti lock breaks? | tedivm wrote: | That line only exists in their Git Repository, which contains | the latest code. That line does not exist on their website. | | If you want to use software directly out of someone's | development git repository then yeah, you're going to get | alpha level code. | [deleted] | madamelic wrote: | 98% of that is boilerplate language for any product you use. | | The uppercase is legalese to wiggle out of responsibility. | alisonkisk wrote: | I don't want to wiggle into a car crash. | whatyesaid wrote: | The whole point is they're selling you some hardware only (a | modified Android), and it's legal if you yourself modify your | own car or something. You have to manually install the software | and mount it physically after buying this. | | https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/28/comma-ai-cancels-the-comma... | | It seems well-tested and safe though, not something sizzling | out the lab, they're just using a legal loophole. | jordache wrote: | wait so many normal cars now have steering motors that you can | actuate via OBD?? | | Is that just leveraging the lane keep assist feature on these | modern cars? How much can that hardware steer for you? | qbasic_forever wrote: | Since the early 2000's most cars have been using a drive-by- | wire system for steering. They aren't exposed on OBD2 though, | that's just for legacy emissions. Most are on a CAN bus but | there isn't some big standard to control them all--it's very | much a manufacturer by manufacturer thing right now. | bri3d wrote: | This is only partially true - the only cars which used "real" | drive-by-wire (wheel -> computer -> steering actuator) were a | few Infiniti vehicles, and even then they had a clutch which | could re-engage a physical steering column. | | Rather, a few cars in the early 2000s and many since the | early 2010s or so offer electric power steering assist: the | steering wheel is still very much connected by a physical | steering column to the steering rack, and normal steering | input is purely physical - there's just also an electric | motor attached to the rack to provide the usual power | steering boost. And, that power steering assist can be | controlled over a non-diagnostic CAN bus to facilitate LKA. | bri3d wrote: | Yes, this is usually leveraging the LKA feature. Depending on | the manufacturer/car the LKA generally has a torque limit (to | allow the driver to override the system by hand, and prevent | wrist injuries from steering input) and an angle limit. | | Most cars (none, that I am aware of) do not allow the steering | motor to be actuated over the OBD port, the CAN bus containing | the steering/LKA sits behind a diagnostic gateway that doesn't | pass steering messages. You need to tap into this CAN bus, | which in the Comma product is accomplished by the connector at | the rearview mirror (usually used for the stock lane-keeping | assist camera). | chrisseaton wrote: | Most modern cars have something like lane assist yes, which | moves the steering wheel for you. Many have automatic parking | which also moves the wheel. So yeah it's built in anyway. | BooneJS wrote: | I tend to be a bargain shopper, but I don't put my life in the | hands of most of my deals. | Justsignedup wrote: | Okay, anecdotes aside... What level of autonomy does this | provide? Is it just basically lane assist? | treelovinhippie wrote: | Level 2. But it's rapidly evolving opensource software. | WrtCdEvrydy wrote: | There is a "tap to switch lane" which can do your lane changes | but it's not automated (since there's only forward facing | camera) | jabroni_salad wrote: | I've seen a few videos of it. It really is just a half step up | from active lane keeping. It will proactively keep you centered | and manage your speed with no interaction, whereas normal lane | keeping only kicks in if you are about to drift out of the | lane. | elil17 wrote: | Honda LKA keeps you centered and lets you take your hands off | the wheel. | leesec wrote: | A "half step up" doesn't really do it justice. Most current | LKA + Adaptive Cruise Control on cars will only keep you in | the lane for a few seconds before requiring human engagement. | The Comma Openpilot has already driven intervention free for | hours. | elil17 wrote: | Yes, it's just lane assist that does a good job in a variety of | situations that stock systems typically don't do well in. | easton wrote: | *$1,199 once you add in the required car harness to, you know, | connect it to your car. | qbasic_forever wrote: | Adding the self driving option to a Tesla model 3 or S is up to | what, like $3000 now? (on top of whatever extra tech package | you have to add too) This is pretty competitively priced. A lot | of folks spend more than that just on upgrading the stereo in | their car. | brianwawok wrote: | Highway Autopilot is free and included on all current Teslas. | | For an additional 10k you can do a software upgrade to FSD | which does things like lane changes, and autopark, and | summon. Someday, it will also hopefully do this for city | streets (15 public users are on a beta of it right now). | | But yah, you would never buy this on a Tesla, as the car | includes a better version of it for free on all cars. | anotheryou wrote: | that's cables? or the 3D printed mount? | yepthatsreality wrote: | What an insufferable use of lowercase. I can't even identify the | products in some text later on: | | ``` Your first three months of comma prime are free with the | purchase of a comma two. ``` | | Later... | | ``` The comma two and openpilot are currently compatible with | dozens of cars with new models being added regularly. See if your | car is compatible or check out our complete list of compatible | cars. ``` | | Why do first words of a sentence still get capitalization but not | the actual proper nouns? | beastman82 wrote: | Shady alert: I just clicked on one of the testimonials ("Jason S | Co") and it seems apparent that it is an employee of Comma, all | retweets of comma's main twitter account. | madamelic wrote: | Yeah, all three of the testimonials seem to be comma.ai | employees. That's an awful look. | cyrux004 wrote: | Pretty sure this statement is incorrect | netrus wrote: | The second one is true for sure. | leesec wrote: | If you're concerned, there's also hundreds of hours of it being | used on youtube by real users. | cyrux004 wrote: | I dont think there is an employee named Jason. Employees are | active on discord and github. | rvz wrote: | Here's a real testimonial: [0] | | [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26147102 | beastman82 wrote: | Just clicked on another and... it's another Comma retweet | factory. This is a super shady business! | dang wrote: | Recent and related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26146361 | (not many comments but the Twitter link has info). | | A thread from last year: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21986315 | thethethethe wrote: | It seems like the market for a product like this (augmenting | older vehicles) will diminish over time as more and more vehicles | come with these features plus rolling updates and more advanced | sensors standard. | | If this proves to be the case, I wonder what the company will do | to pivot | trulyme wrote: | Not sure why the downvotes, it is a legit risk for this | business. Remember how one could convert analog SLR cameras to | digital with some kits? It wasn't a success story... | | EDIT: at least not for long. | stjo wrote: | Sell directly to manufacturers? Nearly no one (except Tesla) | has anything coming in the near future. Why anyone they pay | billions to develop the technology in-house if they can just | pay Comma.ai to integrate a sub $1000 thingy in their cars. | bri3d wrote: | I don't think Comma would pass compliance as any control- | related automotive system, much less a self-driving one, at | any established automotive manufacturer in a regulated market | (US, EU). The code isn't written to any commercial audit | standard that I can tell, the hardware is COTS mobile phone | hardware, and change management and testing (in a formal | sense) seems pretty much non-existent. Most manufacturers | demand compliance with standards like ISO 26262 for liability | reasons. Arguments about the value of these kinds of | standards aside, it's vanishingly unlikely that any mature | automaker would buy Comma's product as it stands - a major or | nearly complete overhaul would be required. Now, that's not | to say they couldn't sell into a less-mature company or one | in an unregulated market, but I don't think the opportunity | for them is as great as it seems. | t0mas88 wrote: | Nearly all luxury brands have had lane keeping for years. | Similar quality to what Tesla offers, just not marketed as | broadly and typically not available on a model 3 kind of | entry level. But at Tesla S price levels, all other | manufacturers offer similar lane keeping and adaptive cruise | capabilities. | leesec wrote: | So far there are only 2 car companies with comparable quality, | Tesla, and GM with Supercruise ( available on only 1 model ). | | This is intended to provide functionality for all the rest | t0mas88 wrote: | Have you seen recent Volvo, BMW and Mercedes systems? They | all have good lane keeping and adaptive cruise / stop & go | for several years now. And I'm sure there are many more that | I'm not aware of. | lini wrote: | Perhaps they are waiting for someone to buy them. Even though | most of their software is open source, the crucial parts are | still closed IP. If it is really better than the current LKA | systems and has the potential to handle even more driving | scenarios in the future, it will be an easy decision for a big | auto company that needs to quickly catch up. | stunt wrote: | This is a link to the homepage. Is there a new announcement? | | What is new about this? AFAIK Comma.ai has this since at least | 2-3 years ago! ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-02-15 23:01 UTC)