[HN Gopher] Jacquard by Google ___________________________________________________________________ Jacquard by Google Author : lgats Score : 43 points Date : 2021-02-16 19:27 UTC (3 hours ago) (HTM) web link (atap.google.com) (TXT) w3m dump (atap.google.com) | boh wrote: | I think the sensors on everything idea is losing its sheen. I | don't need my shirt tracking my behavior along with everything | else. | cwhiz wrote: | Legitimately, if this was posted on 4/1 I would have commented | that they did a great job with a non-obvious prank. | | I can't believe this is actually real. | [deleted] | illumanaughty wrote: | Cool! Can't wait until this gets shuttered mid-2022. | jakogut wrote: | I definitely have an active aversion to integrating Google | products into my life after being bitten by this several times. | dang wrote: | It's time to retire this cliche on HN, not because it's untrue, | but because it has become a mechanical reflex. | | " _Please don 't post shallow dismissals, especially of other | people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something._" | | https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html | smnrchrds wrote: | It reminds me of Amazon Dash, so I think you are right. | abeppu wrote: | Lots of people are mentioning that this project is old. But | zooming out from the project, is this part of a division or org | within google that's kind of ... stale? | | https://atap.google.com/ | | Under the projects section the first thing is jacquard. | | The second thing is the soli miniature radar-on-phone thing which | was on the pixel 4 and cut from the pixel 5. | | The third thing is "Spotlight Stories" which looks like a VR | fiction project. It says "Winner emmy". Maybe I'm not finding the | right thing but it seems like they were a nominee in 2017 and | 2018. https://www.emmys.com/bios/google-spotlight-stories | | The 'News & Updates' section starts with links that date from | 2019. | | Maybe they're all heads-down on something not yet announced and | no one looks at the page above so it doesn't matter. But if you | _do_ look, it seems like a ghost town. | jonas21 wrote: | ATAP was headed by Regina Dugan, who left Google for Facebook | in 2016. It doesn't seem like they've done a whole lot since | then. | pyrophane wrote: | Is there anything new being announced with this? I'm looking at | the site and trying to figure out why this is being posted right | now. From what I can tell Jacquard has been around for some time, | and at least some of these apparel products have as well. | birdyrooster wrote: | Are these clothes? What is the product? | tpmx wrote: | > What is the product? | | It's a cliche by now, but still: It's you. | | This is peak Google. | | (It's sensors/triggers sewn into clothing, connected to your | Google identity.) | vntok wrote: | More like peak HN. | tpmx wrote: | How so? | throwaway3699 wrote: | Because it's silly to assume Google's using this for ad | tracking and surveillance. The number of people in the | world using this is practically zero. I doubt 99% of | Google's workforce has ever tried or heard of it. HN has | a tendency to jump to ridiculous conclusions. | | This is probably a project for some engineers to get | promoted and go and work on more interesting stuff. | tpmx wrote: | > Because it's silly to assume Google's using this for ad | tracking and surveillance. The number of people in the | world using this is practically zero. I doubt 99% of | Google's workforce has ever tried or heard of it. HN has | a tendency to jump to ridiculous conclusions. | | Concepts and prototypes are typically created based on | the company's overall vision. Of course very few people | will interact with this particular iteration. | | Really, do you think anyone here was concerned about how | many Google employees were "subjected" to this | internally? | throwaway3699 wrote: | To play devils advocate, if this shipped to millions of | people, what benefit does Google have in terms of | advertising that wasn't already available in Android? | That people are wearing clothes? | | From an opportunity cost standpoint it just does not make | sense. | | > Really, do you think anyone here was concerned about | how many Google employees were "subjected" to this | internally? | | Strawman. I'm trying to point out how this is _not_ part | of some grand vision, but just a hardware research | project from a lab designed to build out novel concepts | for their hardware teams. You can 't build a good project | without a few failures first, so why not release what | they make along the way? | tpmx wrote: | The goal is obvious: to have Google track everything for | a consumer in the name of convenience. | | You haven't replied to my counterpoint on why focusing on | how many googlers used this prototype is irrelevant. | throwaway3699 wrote: | Okay, but you've still not answered, _why_ spend time | building new hardware when they could just update their | operating system and get 99% of the data you 're talking | about, for much much less money? Take away the clothing | part, and this is literally just a fancy button to | control music. | tylerchilds wrote: | In the trailer with the example in the shoe and playing | soccer, that's insights a phone couldn't capture. It's | got an accelerometer and gyroscope, so it can answer the | question of "what do people do when they aren't on their | phones" | | Maybe it can't differentiate between soccer and ultimate | frisbee, but even just recognizing active vs sedentary | lifestyle is valuable information for an advertising | profile. | tpmx wrote: | > Okay, but you've still not answered, why spend time | building new hardware when they could just update their | operating system and get 99% of the data you're talking | about, for much much less money? Take away the clothing | part, and this is literally just a fancy button to | control music. | | Because the goal is to extend the reach into every nook | and cranny of our lives. Collect more data to serve more | ads, better. | | Edit: Think of this as step 10 or so, after all of their | previous device categories. I'm sure we'll be up to at | least 100 device categories within the next decade. | imwillofficial wrote: | So everything google does is rational and they don't | experiment with new forms of data collection? Your lack | of critical thinking is concerning. | imwillofficial wrote: | "Strawman. I'm trying to point out how this is not part | of some grand vision, but just a hardware research | project from a lab designed to build out novel concepts | for their hardware teams." | | I straw man your straw man! Nobody said anything about a | "grand vision". Merely that this would be used to gather | data on those who use it. Experiment, or grand design, | google has shown that more often than not, new technology | will be used to further serve their customers. | Advertisers. | imwillofficial wrote: | And how does that change the fact that this is a perfect | example of the hubris that google displays as they flaunt | their power to invade everyone's lives and make money off | of them? | systemvoltage wrote: | > Jacquard(tm) by Google weaves new digital experiences into the | things you love, wear, and use every day to give you the power to | do more and be more. | | WTF!? Sounds like the CEO of Google giving the intro to Google | I/O. If it was Microsoft, it would have the word 'empower' | instead of power. God I hate this BS lingo, Steve Jobs would fire | the editors over this crap. | vntok wrote: | Why not read before commenting? | https://atap.google.com/jacquard/technology/ | systemvoltage wrote: | Why not put wtf this is at the first opportunity in the | simplest terms? | | I have a pet peeve for company marketing people that say "We | provide products and services to empower customers". Well, no | shit! It would be insane otherwise. | vntok wrote: | > Why not put wtf this is at the first opportunity in the | simplest terms? | | The "Technology" link is literally the third word visible | on the page, after the Jacquard logo and a "Products" link. | | > I have a pet peeve for company marketing people that say | "We provide products and services to empower customers". | Well, no shit! It would be insane otherwise. | | Companies manufacturing washing machines don't "empower | customers" in that there aren't many differenciators | between washing machine brands today. Nor does your average | company selling toilet paper, that would be insane. | | This project however aims to "empower customers" by | introducing a paradigm change: make your clothes smarter | (smart fibers woven in the base product) while deciding | yourself how smart you want them to be (you choose what | actions to take on what gestures). | | Whether it succeeds is another thing entirely of course. | gremlinsinc wrote: | > Companies manufacturing washing machines don't "empower | customers" in that there aren't many differenciators | between washing machine brands today. Nor does your | average company selling toilet paper, that would be | insane. | | Might privileged to assume everyone can afford or has | room for a washing machine, for the people who don't I'm | sure it definitely would empower them to get more done if | they could . | | Also there's a lot of differentiation, I never knew how | much better front-loaders were till we owned one. | | This reminds me of the "futurism" movement in Italy that | led to Mussolini's rise where they were so into fashion | that they didn't know how but they just knew they wanted | milk-based clothing and had to figure it out, and they | actually did! It's kind of a cool story, without the | fascist dictator throwing a wrench into the coolness. | | This also seems like it's totally ripped from star trek, | the insignia on their uniforms do exactly that and Jean | Luc Picard sounds a lot like Jacquard.... | | I could see this as a gimmick from Nike, Reebok, or | someone already in fashion but from Google it seems... | like some weird B-project team endeavor like Google Glass | that probably won't go anywhere long-term. | belinder wrote: | it looks like it's a remote button that you can configure and | attach to your clothes, then you can tap it and something on | your phone happens (like play next song) | amelius wrote: | Can I configure it to send the notification to my own servers | as opposed to Google's? | vntok wrote: | Probably not considering the blob talks to Jacquard's app. | Then again, you are part of an incredibly insignificant | tiny minority of prospective customers, completely out of | that project's target market. | | All in all, as someone who might want to use this product | one day, I'd rather Google not spend their project's | resources on never-buyers like yourself and instead spend | those adding features and driving cost down for people that | could be genuinely interested. | amelius wrote: | > I'd rather Google not spend their project's resources | on never-buyers like yourself and instead spend those | adding features and driving cost down for people that | could be genuinely interested. | | Sure. And drop all open protocols and support only the | proprietary ones while they're at it? | vntok wrote: | Not sure what your point is but in that case I'd rather | go the obvious third way which is that they would support | a _subset_ of open protocols instead of all of them. | dvfjsdhgfv wrote: | Can you imagine a Google developer suggesting adding that | feature to the project manager? | edoceo wrote: | Hey, it's on the home page: "it's a new Every Thing". Obvious! | haskellandchill wrote: | It's almost satire. I got to "Trucker Jacket" and burst out | laughing. | dvfjsdhgfv wrote: | Yeah, these folks live in an alternative universe. | agnosticmantis wrote: | I hope a nice side effect of this will be for this to incentivize | higher quality and more durable clothes, and as a result help | bring down fast fashion. It doesn't seem like these are | compatible with cheap disposable clothes/shoes etc. | cma wrote: | Can't figure out what it is from the page. An accelerometer clip | on for your shoes and sleeves? Something woven into some of the | fabrics in one cutaway image, maybe strain sensors or touch | sensors? | osipovas wrote: | What does it say about Alphabet that I expected to see a: We're | closing down Project Jacquard. After clicking the link... | williesleg wrote: | Yeah just what I need, a Google Jackoff Chip | dang wrote: | If curious see also | | 2017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15330556 | | 2015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9625641 | Jabbles wrote: | Note that Project Jacquard was announced by Google in 2015: | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ngt0Xg4lLOo | UncleOxidant wrote: | ...and will likely be canceled by Google in 2023. | hwbehrens wrote: | And the relevant HN discussion: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9625641 | youeseh wrote: | What problem are they solving? | trequartista wrote: | Shoes, Jackets and Bags powered by the technology is cool and | all, but it doesn't say anywhere whether this is waterproof? Are | the jackets washable in a washing machine? The gadgets are cool, | but there are questions about the real world utility of this. | Judgmentality wrote: | > Shoes, Jackets and Bags powered by the technology is cool and | all | | Why? What makes them cool? What do they do that normal clothes | don't? | Akinato wrote: | I remember hearing about Jacquard years ago. Given I haven't | heard or seen any applications of it gaining traction since the | launch leads me to think it's just going to go into the endless | cavern of Google Abandonware. | jakogut wrote: | What a strange name and marketing scheme. It's unclear what | they're selling, how to get it, or if I would even want it. I | increasingly feel out of the loop when it comes to new products | and services marketed by large corporations. | tantalor wrote: | The name has been around since 1804 | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_machine | alunchbox wrote: | Yep, another data extraction tool. Neat but every day we strive | closer to Black Mirror. | gabaix wrote: | I bought my Jacquard Levi's jacket 2 years ago in SF. | | What I really love is the gesture interface. The swipe on the | sleeve feels natural. Comparatively tapping on AirPods looks more | awkward. It is especially useful while riding my motorbike. | | I found the jacket in the SF Levi's store as I was shopping for a | jacket. I had no idea that Google made them. I wonder why Google | doesn't do more to promote the device. | muglug wrote: | This is an interesting approach: this device will free you from | constantly checking all those other devices. | | To me this is the selling point of the Apple Watch, and it's hard | to see what this does that a watch does not. | LASR wrote: | They're clearly going for the other end of the spectrum here. | | A watch is something that is attached to you, regardless of | what other clothing/shoes/bags you may have. | | This is attached to the clothing/shoes/bags you may have, | regardless of whether you're in it or not. | | The only way this can work out is if the device can be built so | cheaply that it can be integrated into most items of clothing | to be ubiquitous (like the anti-theft tags). | | The point of a smart watch is that you own one, and so device | vendors can pack in a ton of tech inside it to make it | compelling. And since you only need one, they can probably | price it high, and offer some sort of accessory system to cater | to different style preferences. The Apple Watch totally nails | this product. | | This product, IMHO, is a disaster from a product perspective, | not even going into the tech involved. | | What do I do if I chose to not wear my blue jean jacket that | day? No functionality? Maybe I'll cut this little device out of | the jacket and put it into my coat sleeve. It's basically a | really terrible smart watch at this point. | SahAssar wrote: | > this device will free you from constantly checking all those | other devices. | | How? The only way this device will indicate anything to the | user is by vibrating, just like your phone (or watch) already | can do. | tomerico wrote: | This is one of the Google projects that I'm surprised still | exist. The new technology here is integrating touch sensors into | fabrics. You can see examples on the website of clothing and | bags. | | The main problem is that it's just that - a touch sensor. You | still need a separate device that will contain all the other | pieces - processor, battery, IMU, connectivity, etc. Once you | make that device and wear it - you might as well integrate the | input mechanism into it, why bother with using the fabric? | | Better yet - integrate a screen into it as well, do you don't | just have an odd, input only device, but you can actually see | what you are interacting with. Oh wait - at that point you've | just re-invented the smartwatch. | | Can someone enlighten me on what is a killer use case that is | actually better served with the Jacquard technology? | pavel_lishin wrote: | Eh, some of the use cases are kind of neat - being able to | control certain things without taking that device (likely a | phone) out of a pocket. | wyattpeak wrote: | I already control my phone while in my pocket using my | headphones. Others do it with their watch. Still others just | shout at their phones. | | I don't think it's impossible that there's an even better | solution hiding in this product, but it really does seem to | address a solved problem, to my mind. | paxys wrote: | > You still need a separate device that will contain all the | other pieces - processor, battery, IMU, connectivity, etc | | That device already exists - your smartphone | tomerico wrote: | If the clothes could somehow tap into your smartphone battery | and processor that would have at least made the whole thing | simpler to use. As it stands right now, you need to have a | separate "tag" that you charge separately and connect to your | phone wirelessly. At that point you might as well wear a | smartwatch or similar. | da_big_ghey wrote: | Not a great solution, since people often aren't carrying | cellular phones, but are almost always clothed. I think the | point is that this can be used at almost any time, compared | to a phone which someone will often be without? | pavel_lishin wrote: | When are they scheduled to discontinue the APIs that make these | more than paperweights? | drusepth wrote: | They are not currently scheduled to discontinue the APIs these | use. | antihero wrote: | So a bunch of items that restrict your fashion choices, are | horrendously expensive for what they actually give you (mostly | gimmicks), which will likely be abandoned by Google anyway? | AirMax98 wrote: | Hate to be dismissive, but who honestly wants to wear this nerd | shit? A fashion disaster on par with Google glass. Can't wait til | my sneakers are part of some botnet. | imwillofficial wrote: | I laughed so hard at this | Doctor_Fegg wrote: | "allows our partner brands to integrate connectivity and digital | experiences directly into their products" | | It's the Motorola ROKR all over again. | throwaway556179 wrote: | The first use case mentions: "effortless selfies" -- call me | stuck in the past, is that what I need high tech for? | chrisco255 wrote: | Seems like they originally announced the Jacquard project 6 or so | years ago. The idea of weaving electronics into clothing and | fashion brands is interesting, but I'm not sure how useful it is. | The product looks like it's evolved into a small bluetooth chip | that you can slide into either shirt sleeves or backbacks and it | will sense touches even through the fabric. It's interesting, but | also fairly niche. The example they show of the woman sliding the | Jacquard device into the rolled back jean jacket sleeve doesn't | seem practical though. It just seems like smart watches are a | better match for this use case of answering calls and performing | quick tasks. | | Note, it says the product can withstand light splashes, but can't | withstand a wash in a machine. What that means is that these | devices will get fried on a regular basis...since a device that | small is easy to forget about as you toss in your laundry. | jpollock wrote: | It looks like the sensors/controls are built into the object, | with the CPU, battery and radio (the more expensive part) being | movable? So, it attaches to the jacket and exposes some controls, | it attaches to the backpack and enables some controls. It | attaches to the shoe and reads sensors? | | I guess that means you don't have to plug in your jacket or your | backpack, and helps to amortize the cost across a wardrobe? Maybe | it's purely to get the battery close to a wall socket. | suyash wrote: | no developer platform for it yet? Seems like it hasn't taken off | for last 5 years | serverholic wrote: | Any bets on when google will discontinue this product? | [deleted] | frouge wrote: | Place your bets: when will Google kill this project? | dfxm12 wrote: | I like the idea of wearable computing. I'm not too keen on being | locked into Google/Levi's/YSL though. The list of abilities [0] | also leaves a lot to be desired. I'm just not bothered by pulling | out my phone to change a song or check when my uber is coming. | | The gamification of training with adidas and FIFA is the most | interesting, but this seems like a lot of extra tech to basically | count reps. | | 0 - https://atap.google.com/jacquard/technology/#abilities ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-02-16 23:00 UTC)