[HN Gopher] Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust co... ___________________________________________________________________ Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint Author : mikesabbagh Score : 439 points Date : 2021-02-17 13:19 UTC (7 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.reuters.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com) | newbie578 wrote: | Full support to Epic! Time to bring some balance. Would also love | to have Apple allow api access to PWAs, they are hindering | progress of PWAs just because of the App Store money. | | Would love to hear Tim Apple's opinion on this stuff, on being in | this position. I remember quite fondly how he berated Facebook | and Zuck personally, by saying he as a CEO would never be in such | a situation regarding media scrutiny and regulatory issues. | | Oh how the tables turn.. As a dev, I do not like Apple an ounce | more than Facebook. So kudos to Tim Sweeney.. | api wrote: | There are no good guys here. Apple wants to tax everyone in the | world 30% for almost every software transaction while Epic wants | to bring more loot box gambling to iOS and keep all the money. | ehvatum wrote: | There is room for 3rd party app stores. Epic will argue that | Apple does an absolutely ghastly terrible job of curating the | Apple app store, as Apple really has little incentive not to suck | completely. The EU court will agree. Apple will spend a year or | two saying "it can't be done", then issue a signing certificate | to Epic. | fartcannon wrote: | And Sweeney will take it, claiming a victory for the 'little | guy'. Shameless. | Spivak wrote: | I still don't see a way to resolve the problem that software | isn't fungible and so multiple app stores are only good for | publisher choice but not user choice. | | Without the requirement that all apps able to be purchased on | all stores at similar prices and still under Apple's review | process then apps will flock to the store that makes them the | most money and fewest rules and users will have no choice but | to acquire that app via that store. If I have to go to X store | for an app I need I don't really have my choice of store. | | Do gamers like the current culture of having to have Origin, | Steam, UPlay, Epic, GOGs, Blizzard Store, for no other reason | than large middlemen playing Civ with marketshare and | exclusives? | | I think if this issue was solved we would see less people | desiring Apple to have such tight control over their ecosystem | because it would mean that for users that like Apple's store | opening up isn't a strict downgrade for them. | yladiz wrote: | Yeah, this isn't really about "choice", it's about control. | If there are exclusives on, for example, an iOS Epic store, | your choice isn't really a choice, you have to install it | from the Epic store. | | I'm curious how this will play out in general. Android | already allows side-loaded applications, and Epic allowed | people to install Fortnite outside of the Play Store and it | did poorly, so they begrudgingly added Fortnite back into the | Play Store, so I imagine it would be the same thing on iOS. | Arguably it could be even more challenging for others because | Apple would likely not be forced to treat non-App Store | stores the same as the App Store in some ways, which would | very likely lead to a situation where users would get popups | when when install the new app store and when they load an | app, similar to how running a nonsigned program works on Mac | now. | syberspace wrote: | Who is forcing you to install apps from any store? Are you | being held hostage and compelled to install apps against | your will? Blink twice for yes, three times for no. | Spivak wrote: | Ohmygod I can't deal this reductionist stance on choice. | Software isn't fungible. If you, for example, want to | play a specific game, need a specific messenger to talk | to your friends, or need a specific app for work like the | Adobe suite or Procreate then you have no choice but to | go to a store where those apps are available. If | Photoshop is only in the Adobe store then you're gonna | have to download and use that store if you want it. | Having the choice to not use Photoshop isn't the same | thing as having the choice about where to buy Photoshop. | throwaway3699 wrote: | GOG is an exception there, given that all their games are | DRM-free, and I know many people find Steam/Valve to | genuinely be a good steward of the industry. The rest of the | stores - plenty of peer pressure if your friends want you to | play a specific title with them on those platforms, leaving | little choice. | Qahlel wrote: | > Do gamers like the current culture of having to have | Origin, Steam, UPlay, Epic, GOGs, Blizzard Store, for no | other reason than large middlemen playing Civ with | marketshare and exclusives? | | I don't like my game library is fragmented. But what if Steam | was the only store for PC and I wasn't able to buy/play any | Epic or EA games because of that? That would be worse. | | Or what if the game prices had to be higher than current | prices since the only place I can buy a game was steam and | there was no competition? | Spivak wrote: | > But what if Steam was the only store for PC and I wasn't | able to buy/play any Epic or EA games because of that? That | would be worse. | | I guess but if Steam was genuinely the only place where | people bought games then Epic and EA games would have no | choice but to list on Steam which makes you better off, no? | | > Or what if the game prices had to be higher than current | prices since the only place I can buy a game was steam and | there was no competition? | | This I think is the meat of the argument but I think it | falls down because competition gets weird with software and | copyrighted properties. There's no competition between | Steam and Origin for games that are only on Origin. If | Microsoft Word is only available on the Windows Store for | iOS then there's nothing to compete over for a user that | needs Word. | [deleted] | gwd wrote: | > There is room for 3rd party app stores. | | The "Apple Tax" pays for the maintenance of the Apple | ecosystem. Epic wants access to this amazing ecosystem, but | resents having to help pay to support it. | | Either "third party" app stores will also pay to support this | ecosystem, in which case Epic will be paying the same amount | either way; or they'll fail to support the ecosystem, in which | case Apple will be forced to turn to other sources to make | revenue (like selling personal information). | | Right now I, as the consumer, can choose between an ecosystem | whose business model is based on selling personal information | (Android) or an ecosystem whose business model is based on the | end user paying more (Apple). Don't take that choice away from | me. | chii wrote: | > Either "third party" app stores will also pay to support | this ecosystem, in which case Epic will be paying the same | amount either way | | how did you work out that the amount apple gets paid (30%) is | the "correct" amount? The only way to find out is via | competition. But due to the monopolistic powers of apple, | there cannot be competition on their platform. Thus, we do | not know the true cost of maintaining this platform - only | that apple is able to maintain it with at least 30%. | | > Don't take that choice away from me. | | nobody is forcing you to use the third party app store if it | does exist. If you continued to use apple's curated store, | you will continue to get the existing benefits. Adding an | extra option can't possibly hurt you. | gwd wrote: | > how did you work out that the amount apple gets paid | (30%) is the "correct" amount? The only way to find out is | via competition. | | The "correct" amount is the amount that everybody is happy | to pay. If Epic doesn't want to pay 30%, then 30% is too | high for them. That's OK -- nobody is forcing them to pay | it. | | The competition you're describing isn't the cost of | _running the app store_ ; it's the cost of _maintaining the | entire Apple ecosystem_ , including iOS, new iPhone | hardware, etc. | | > Adding an extra option can't possibly hurt you. | | Yes it can, and I just explained how. But let me try to | spell it out. | | 1. New iOS "app store" starts up, but only charges 0.1%. | This is possible because they don't write the OS or any of | the infrastructure; they're a simple indexer | | 2. Everyone moves over to this app store because the fees | are cheaper. | | 3. Apple's revenue drops precipitously | | 4. In order to maintain the OS, Apple either a) raises the | prices of iPhones b) starts selling my information c) | invests less in the iPhone and iOS. | | All three of those possibilities hurt me; so yes, a new app | store does hurt me. | ginko wrote: | > New iOS "app store" starts up, but only charges 0.1%. | This is possible because they don't write the OS or any | of the infrastructure; they're a simple indexer | | Apple was already paid handsomely for OS development | through the device's purchase price. | | > Apple's revenue drops precipitously | | Apple has some of the highest margins in the industry. | They'll survive. | | > In order to maintain the OS, Apple either a) raises the | prices of iPhones b) starts selling my information c) | invests less in the iPhone and iOS. | | See my previous point. | kempbellt wrote: | "Apple has lots of money so they can afford to give some | of it away because we want them to" is not an argument | that Epic can take to court, and it isn't a great | argument to support adding app stores. | | As an iPhone user I prefer the single app store approach. | Multiple app stores fragments the user experience, | ultimately harming the experience of owning an iPhone. | Especially when apps become exclusives to different | stores, because they will. | | It's one of the main reasons that I moved away from | Android. I completely understand the "open system" | argument for Android, but a fragmented user experience is | a byproduct of that openness. The last android phone I | had came with a Samsung store, Google play, and I believe | a Verizon app store. As well, going from my Android phone | to borrowing a friends meant learning a completely new UX | almost every time. "Oh, you don't have a Samsung Android, | so you don't have that particular app store, so you can't | get the app... Sorry" | | It's been several years now, so maybe that's changed, but | the biggest thing that makes me stick with Apple is the | consistency of the user experience, in both its OS and | app store ecosystems. | ginko wrote: | You're conflating having a single app store with having a | consistent user experience. Mac OS didn't have an app | store for most of its existence and it's doing fine. | Android is particularly bad in that regard, not just | because of the ability to side-load alternative apps and | app stores. The main issue is that OEMs heavily modify | the OS for their devices, something that isn't an issue | with Apple's business model. | kempbellt wrote: | I'm not so sure it's a conflation. Having a single app | store makes for a more consistent user experience when | moving from device to device. | | You can tell people about apps and they know how and | where to get them. See an app you like on another iPhone? | You can probably install it on yours fairly easily. | There's less confusion around the entire ecosystem | because of its simplicity. | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: | > The "correct" amount is the amount that everybody is | happy to pay. | | This is only valid in a free market with lots of | competition and information transparency. The crux of the | argument is that this does not apply to the app store | ecosystem. | eptcyka wrote: | What are you on about? App developers are not the ones | who should be monetarily supporting the ecosystem, the | end user has already paid for the device. Not only that, | without developers, there is no ecosystem. An iPhone | without apps is less useful than an iPod touch with apps. | | Boohoo, the most cash rich silicon company will have to | compete. Brew or Cydia never ate into Apples profit | margins, instead it allowed users to do things apple | couldn't be bothered supporting (Like Bluetooth audio on | the 3g iPhone on iOS 2.0). Having multiple app stores | will allow users to circumvent government censorship in | countries where Apple is forced to follow the governments | demands. | gwd wrote: | > App developers are not the ones who should be | monetarily supporting the ecosystem, the end user has | already paid for the device. | | Where does this "should" come from? Just because you | don't think that's the best way to run an ecosystem | doesn't mean nobody should be allowed to do it. If it's a | bad model, that's Apple's problem, not yours. If you | think you have a better model, start a new company with a | different model. | | > Not only that, without developers, there is no | ecosystem. An iPhone without apps is less useful than an | iPod touch with apps. | | The fact that Apple has a rich and thriving ecosystem | demonstrates that their business model works just fine. | | > Having multiple app stores will allow users to | circumvent government censorship in countries where Apple | is forced to follow the governments demands. | | Won't one of those government demands be, "No third party | app stores"? (Or, "No third party app stores that we | haven't approved"?) | Qahlel wrote: | > The fact that Apple has a rich and thriving ecosystem | demonstrates that their business model works just fine. | | It just shows it works for Apple. It doesn't show it | works for everyone else. It's like slavery was a good | system because it made the slave-owners rich and they | thrived because of it. | zepto wrote: | > nobody is forcing you to use the third party app store if | it does exist. If you continued to use apple's curated | store, you will continue to get the existing benefits. | Adding an extra option can't possibly hurt you | | People need to stop saying this - it's obvious completely | false. | | As soon as other app stores are involved, there will be | paid exclusives. Equivalent to Joe Rogan on Spotify, or any | of the streaming video services who commission studios to | make content just for their platform. | | It will definitely be impossible to avoid using multiple | stores if you want access to the popular apps. | diffeomorphism wrote: | Not really. It would be perfectly possible to have just | one store offering multiple repos/curations etc. . And in | any case "but having like three stores" is an annoyance | at worst. Having one grand holy arbiter of truth is a | bigger problem. | zepto wrote: | > It would be perfectly possible to have just one store | offering multiple repos/curations etc. | | That isn't true. | | In order for it to be true you would need to explain how | this would be possible if stores buy exclusive rights to | apps. | darknessmonk wrote: | > how did you work out that the amount apple gets paid | (30%) is the "correct" amount? The only way to find out is | via competition. But due to the monopolistic powers of | apple, there cannot be competition on their platform. Thus, | we do not know the true cost of maintaining this platform - | only that apple is able to maintain it with at least 30%. | | 30% is industry standard. | | > nobody is forcing you to use the third party app store if | it does exist. If you continued to use apple's curated | store, you will continue to get the existing benefits. | Adding an extra option can't possibly hurt you. | | It hurts the ecosystem - and all its users. Splitting the | apps in multiple app stores is a nightmare | | I don't get the point: the whole idea of Apple is to have | everything under their control. Nobody is forcing anyone to | use Apple devices | adamdusty wrote: | Nobody is going to not put their app on the apple app | store. Look at steam for example. Almost every game on | steam can be purchased somewhere else, like icth.io or | the game's website. 30% is industry standard among | monopolistic players (Google play store, Apple app store, | Steam). There are many other storefronts that take less | of a cut, and don't require IAP to go through a specific | payment system that the platform also owns. FDroid, MS | Store, Epic Store, Galaxy Store, GOG, the list goes on. | darknessmonk wrote: | > Nobody is going to not put their app on the apple app | store. | | Epic will, and this is what they want | | > Almost every game on steam can be purchased somewhere | else, like icth.io or the game's website. 30% is industry | standard among monopolistic players (Google play store, | Apple app store, Steam). | | That is a very different use case | Terretta wrote: | How is Steam a "monopolistic player" when you say "almost | every game on steam can be purchased somewhere else" and | go on to mention Gog, MS Store, Epic Store, and "the list | goes on"? | | That Steam, and others you mention, charge 30% | categorically undermines the whinging about Apple's 30% | being out of line. | | I'm also curious about people's thoughts on Sony pulling | CDPR's Cyberpunk 2077 from their Playstation store. | zepto wrote: | > Nobody is going to not put their app on the apple app | store. | | Certainly false - just like with streaming video, | platforms will pay for exclusives from popular developers | to force users to visit their stores. | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: | The Apple tax pays for outsized profits for Apple | shareholders. The actual cost of supporting the ecosystem is | dwarfed by the absolute firehose of money coming out of the | app store. | fbelzile wrote: | What are you talking about? Both Microsoft and Apple have had | great success developing macOS and Windows while allowing | third party developers to develop and distribute apps without | an additional tax. There's clearly room in the market for | operating systems that don't sell personal data _and_ aren 't | artificially restrictive to generate more revenue. The fact | that Apple cut the tax in half for small companies just shows | how disconnected the revenue from the App Store is from the | cost of running it. | | By all means, keep overpaying for Spotify on the App Store so | Apple can collect their 30% each month, but don't force me | to. Customers already pay to use a licensed copy of iOS on | supported hardware and governments have every right to | protect the customer from perpetually getting screwed by | Apple. At the very least, we shouldn't allow Apple to limit | free speech so that developers can't mention a way for their | users to save money. | efraim wrote: | Apple is well compensated for their ecosystem with the price | of their phones. Epic wants to create their own store or be | allowed to use another payment processor than Apple for in | app purchases. Apple would still have plenty of revenue from | the app store and hardware. | | If epic and others was allowed to use multiple payment | processors in the apps, or to install different app stores | such as epic games or steam, you wouldn't have fewer choices | you would have more. | kevingadd wrote: | Epic has asserted _and proven_ that you don 't need to take | 30% to run an app store and approval pipeline. The incredible | amount of profit generated by the iOS store is further | evidence that the cut doesn't need to be 30%, as is Apple's | sudden willingness to make exceptions for big companies like | Amazon and temporarily offer 15% to small companies. | | Neither the Epic Store or Steam on PC are built around | selling your data. Epic's PC store charges 12% (and if you | use Unreal, they waive the licensing fee for that engine | too), and Steam has a special tiered tax for massive | companies (something like 25% for 50m+ in revenue, 20% at | some higher tier) | marticode wrote: | > The "Apple Tax" pays for the maintenance of the Apple | ecosystem. | | No - the ~50% margin Apple makes on the phone pays for the | ecosystem. Apple could charge nothing for inclusion in the | app store and still be by far the most profitable electronic | device maker on the planet. | mhh__ wrote: | What ecosystem - i.e. what ecosystem is there that isn't | already paid for by the billions and billions Apple make | every year? | | Apple have hundreds of billions _in cash_ do you actually | believe they 're going to put ads in their services? | dpkonofa wrote: | >Apple have hundreds of billions in cash do you actually | believe they're going to put ads in their services? | | That's irrelevant. The issue in question is one of | principle, not whether or not someone is in a certain | position at this moment in time and can or can't or will or | won't do something. If Apple suddenly lost all of it's | money, you'd then be ok with them putting ads into their | services? | mhh__ wrote: | > if Apple suddenly lost all of it's money | | Well no-one would be using it so I wouldn't care all that | much - Apple losing all their money would basically | require giving away iPhones for free with 0 revenue given | apples financials. | dpkonofa wrote: | So then your argument is just anti-Apple and not actually | based on any principles... | mhh__ wrote: | No I'm pointing out that your hypothetical is so far into | the tails that it's pointless to consider specifically. | lowbloodsugar wrote: | Let's start with the obvious issue: Apple does not sell the most | phones. It does not have the most phones on offer. It is not a | majority, let alone a monopoly. | | Now the less obvious issue: I like what apple does and I am | prepared to pay for it. | | I agree with those arguing for consumer choice, but I come to the | exact opposite conclusion, and find those others hypocritical. I | want an option to have a locked down environment. I want to have | the choice to buy an Apple product. Given the choice between the | Android system or the Apple system, I choose Apple. More people | choose Android. | | The argument that we should use "consumer choice" to remove this | choice from me, and instead to demand that every business must | make the world look like Android users want, is not logical. | gnopgnip wrote: | Antitrust regulation isn't just about monopolies, it is about | the cost to entry and the harm to consumers | ksec wrote: | There are still a lot of people, especially on the general web | stuck in the Steve Job's era believing in bad developers, quote; | | _" What happens sometime though is that some people, uh, lie. | Some people use unpublished APIs and their app gets rejected. | Some people submit an app that they say does one thing, but | really does something else. They try to hide it from us, they get | very clever about that. They try to hide it from us and we find | it and we reject it. And they run to the press and tell a story | about oppression and it gets written up and they get their 15 | minutes of fame because they hope it will convince us to change | our minds which never does, but they keep trying to do that. And | it's unfortunate, but we take it in the chin. That part of what | we do. We don't run to the press and go, "This guys a son of a | bitch liar." "_ | | That was in All Things Digital D8 Conference 2010. Nearly 11 | years ago. The landscape has changed, the context has changed. | iPhone has only _sold_ 50M unit in total since launch in 2007. | These days Apple has 1 _billion_ active user and Apple sell about | as much iPhone per _quarter_. Smartphone and Apps went from nice | thing to have to near or already a necessity in modern society. | Surely you cant apply the same rules in a modern era, not to | mention those App Store rules has _evolved_ since Steve Jobs | passed away. Many Apps that Apple used to exempt from the 30% cut | now has to comply. | | I really wish HN folks read the great piece from Benedict Evans ( | https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2020/8/18/app-stores) and | Matthew Ball ( https://www.matthewball.vc/all/applemetaverse ). | It is by far the best I have seen on this issue. I submitted both | a few times but never got on HN Front page. Hopefully after | reading both, people will stop using it is Apple Store they could | do whatever they want as argument. | | I think there are many things Apple could do as a compromise to | satisfy vast majority of people and interest. | | Break the App Store into Game Store and App Store. | | Nearly 80% of App Store Revenue comes from Gaming. As long as all | games are still going through Game Store, like console maker are | doing which Apple should have a very strong case, they continue | to keep the 80% of revenue ( or near raw profits ). Apple could | also argue their continue investment into Metal API and the so | called Apple's own GPU ( Which is still PowerVR ) as rational. | Breaking this case would hurt lots of other interest including | Microsoft's Xbox. | | Lower the App Store to a flat rate of 10%. And the same apply | across all Apps. Software, Services, Subscription or not with an | annual Cap of Fixed amount ( minus CC processing fees ) , say $1M | per App per year. So Apple isn't rent seeking per se on your | revenue. If you sold $100M, instead of $10M to Apple, you now pay | $1M max per App. Work load for Apple per App is fixed and doesn't | scale with how much revenue an App Generate. And very few Apps ( | not games ) make that much money. With Subscription which | generate long term revenue benefits the most. | | ( EU / AUS has ruled both MasterCard and Visa to lower their | price. Compare to the ridiculously 2-5% processing fees, they are | closer to 1% in both EU and AUS, There are no reason why other | countries wont start looking at App Store from Apple and Google | in similar fashion. i.e Those 30% from Apps will be gone sooner | or later. Better to make some good will than to have no option in | court.) | | Allow Side-loading of Apps in _restricted_ mode. Where | performance and Gaming Related APIs are limited. Access to | Camera, Photos and Phonebook or any files requires consent | _everytime_ they try to access it with no option to disable or | Dont ask again. The reality is 99% of user dont really need or | want to side load Apps. And provides enough security and choice | for its users. For a lot of Apps, this provide good enough for | like News, Email, or other Subscription Apps which really is just | a Web App accessing online information without needing the to go | though Apple 's _permission_ for Apple Store. | | And finally, a clear, open, transparent process and pages for | developers to App Store rejection. Which makes it much more of a | PR problem for Apple that has their interest tied to provide best | service. | | I really hope Apple do change. Tim Cook is far too focused on | Apple's Services Revenue. | [deleted] | NorwegianDude wrote: | A lot of people here seems to think that what Apple is doing is | fine and that people knew how iOS works when they bought the | device. | | Neither of those are true for most people. Just reading the | comments on HN the last half year clearly shows that people are | confused about what Apple demands. If the HN audience is confused | then I feel I can safely state that very few people knows what | they're getting themselves into when choosing iOS. | | Just the fact that you're not allowed by Apple to inform users | about the cut Apple takes should be proof enough that Apple don't | want users to know how much money Apple is costing them. | | And the fact that iOS doesn't have a decent browser also sucks. | Also, users don't understand that Chrome isn't Chrome on iOS. | | Users have no idea what they're paying for, or that what they're | using is being controlled by Apple. | | I hope Apple have to open iOS up so this can end. | shmerl wrote: | Good, anti-trust action against Apple's policies is long overdue. | Looking forward to competing browsers to become available for iOS | users which should reduce Apple's ability to hinder Web | standards. | williesleg wrote: | Shhaaakeeeedooooowwwwnnnn time! Just levy the fine already, quit | the charade! | mucholove wrote: | Why is everyone talking about allowing third-party app stores and | not side-loaded apps? | ihuman wrote: | Because Epic Games is in the title, and they already have a | store on Mac+Windows. | orliesaurus wrote: | the LotR quote "One ring to rule them all" has never been more | appropriate! | my_usernam3 wrote: | If epic were to win, any estimate on how long that would take? | uncledave wrote: | I assume this doesn't affect the UK any more? | chromanoid wrote: | > Epic Games has also complained to the UK Competition Appeal | Tribunal and to the Australian watchdog. | uncledave wrote: | I read the entire article and missed that entirely. More | coffee! Thanks for quoting it. | 40four wrote: | These conversations always rapidly devolve into the same old | generic iOS versus Android nonsense. But I'd like to try to keep | a super narrow scope here. The specific problem Epic and others | are fighting here is _" App Store payment system and control over | app downloads"_ | | Now to be fair, as far as 'App store payments' goes, both Google | & Apple charge the 30% fee on all transactions. The reason Epic | is battling Apple here mostly has to do with the 'walled garden', | and the fact Apple's 'control over app downloads' is totally | locked down. Epic avoids the Google play 30% fee by having users | side-load the APK, so that's a fight for another day I suppose. | | Now, for the 30% fee problem. Does anyone really think that is | fair an equitable? Come again? They hover up 3/10ths of all | business transactions? It just seems so obvious to me that the | answer is _absolutely not_. There is no way I can twist my brain | to believe there is _any_ justification for that. If the issue is | that it costs Apple ( & Google) a lot of money to maintain | servers and infrastructure to provide the app store services, | then there are other ways to charge developers to cover this | cost, and even make some profit. | | Apple charges $100 a year for the 'Apple Developer Program'. This | yearly fee model is the fair way to do this I think. You could | add more tiers too this that scale with usage. $100 for the entry | level package, and that covers 'X' amount of usage. There could | be enterprise tiers for huge customers like Epic. They are using | more of the resources of the app store, then they should pay | more. I'm sure Epic would be happy to pay, IDK I'm just making up | a number, something like $500K a year for their developer license | instead of 30% of every transaction. | | I'm just spitballing here, I've not fully formed all these ideas, | and I don't know what fair pricing for tiers & usage would | exactly look like. But I think most of us can agree a system like | that would be much more fair and equitable. I have just never | heard a convincing argument of why Apple & Google deserves to own | 3/10ths of all the business on their platforms. | [deleted] | maratc wrote: | Anytime Epic/Apple thing comes up, a very relevant quote is what | their judge (YGR) said on their case: | | > "Well plaintiffs always want me to define relevant markets as | narrowly as possible. It helps their case. And defendants always | want me to define markets as broad as possible, because it helps | _their_ case." | | The big elephant in the room is gaming consoles. | | If you see iPhone more or less in line with PC/Mac, you may | already have made up your mind on how "relevant markets" are | defined, and so naturally pre-inclined to side with Epic. | | OTOH if you see it more or less in line with | Xbox/Playstation/Switch (every one of them having a unique store | that charges 30%), you may naturally be pre-inclined to side with | Apple. | | The judges will eventually get to define what the "relevant | market" is, and no amount of HN arguments will change that. | | If I were Apple, I would just make a version of an iPhone | hardware-enabled to have alternative stores, and I would sell it | for a surplus of $1000. This way both sides can have their cake, | and the market can decide. | ryukafalz wrote: | I also think people should be allowed to install whatever | software they want on a gaming console that they own. | | Or a car, or a tractor, or... | casouniquo wrote: | I would like to have an option to install steam on PS5. But | if sony were forced to do that, I don't think they can sell | it for $499. | | Also, like samsung, apple will only be providing like 18 | months of updates | techpression wrote: | I like this idea, much like Windows N (that the EU fought years | for boasting how good it was for consumers and yet nobody | bought it) Apple could release a iPhone - insecure edition, | offering no security features, just like how Microsoft removed | media playback features. Let the actual consumers decide | instead of heavy handed government. | | But I guess most commentators want to eat the cake, sell it and | keep it at the same time. | olivierduval wrote: | Actually, Apple Store and Google Play (and Steam, yeah) are the | same: they are monopolistic platform, either formally (Apple) or | de facto (Google). A bit like IE browser in Windows in the 90's | | I think that each editor can still provide an App Store, with | specific price model for editor/users, and have to allow | competition (with different features... for example, less | curation) by providing THE SAME access for the user. For example, | every app store must include other main app store. Right now, if | you want to use F-Droid, you cant do it as smoothly as using | Google Play because it's not on Google Play (but Amazon apps are | I think). | desmap wrote: | Epic has too much money and IDK if Tim Cooks plays in the same | league with and once Jobs, Sweeney and Huateng. Plus Zuck who | just got started. I wouldn't want to be in a war with them | together. | | Tim is not dumb, not at all but he just maintained one of the | industry's strongest network effect/lock-in, not more. Beyond M1 | there is not a lot that is _not_ from Jobs ' inheritance. Ah yes, | broken keyboards for more than three years. | [deleted] | tremon wrote: | I know this isn't the first time this happens, but it's a curious | thing when a large US company has to resort to using the EU court | system to resolve their beef with another US company. | dleslie wrote: | I'm not excited by the proposition of either party coming out on | top. I hope the EU sees the forest for the trees and understands | that the situation is a lot more complicated than either party | would claim. | | Apple is acting as a leader in reducing the footprint of general | computing hardware; albeit their devices have among the longest | service lives, they continue to be further restricted in their | operation over time. There is a danger here with the population | switching en masse from using PCs to using Phones as their | primary computing devices. Forcing it to allow third party | marketplaces might be a start in reversing that trend. | | Epic is a leader in the development of anxiety-driven consumer | software. Fortnite's primary capital isn't the player's | competitive standing, it's the uniqueness of their cosmetic gear. | They target the most vulnerable and maleable markets, tweens and | children, and ply them with social anxiety; one of the most | insidious and emotionally distressing devices for that age group. | See also, yesterday's lengthy discussion. [0] | | So I kind of hope that the EU allows third party stores, but | allows Apple to place curation constraints on the sort of | purchases that are available to users. | | 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26153331 | somehnrdr14726 wrote: | Marketing anxiety via social proofing has a long history, much | older than computers. Beauty products, cleaning supplies, child | safety gear, etc. | | Why limit the condemnation to virtual goods? | dleslie wrote: | Beauty products, cleaning supplies and child safety gear are | all examples of heavily regulated industries. | prpl wrote: | I can't tell my 12 year old stepson to stop playing fortnite | because it's a large part of his social life in connecting with | family on another continent. At the same time, he has spent | nearly every dollar that has come his way in the last 8 months | on the game, talks about it all the time, watches youtube | videos when he can't play Switch, etc... | | I am happy he has a medium to socialize but the anxiety he gets | from this machine is intense. | | I generally advocate for users rights, but I am siding with | Apple on this one. There is no monopoly - Epic has many | (mobile) platforms to distribute their games/platform, | including switch and android, that I can't imagine the EU sides | with them - especially in europe where iPhones don't constitute | the same market share. | | However, what I would advocate for is a possibility for | officially rooting your iPhone (with lots of big scary messages | along the way) and mutual app store exclusion. | | If Epic wants to run their own app store, great, but I don't | believe Apple should be obligated to make it comfortable. | klmadfejno wrote: | I hate fortnite for what it is. I love unreal engine for what | it is. Regardless of my stake in Apple/Epic is, I think this | needs to be addressed. The economics of platforms as a | monopsony are damaging. We see it in other areas too. Uber Eats | and what is effectively extortion of small business | restaurants. It's like the definition of economic rent, and | it's a mess of bad incentives. | | I would strongly support a system that forced operators to | either run at cost or to charge any price but allow | sideloading. | | A maximum profit margin on services like could also be viable. | zajio1am wrote: | > Fortnite's primary capital isn't the player's competitive | standing, it's the uniqueness of their cosmetic gear. They | target the most vulnerable and maleable markets, tweens and | children, and ply them with social anxiety; | | That does not sound worse than any fashion store. | mhh__ wrote: | Why should I believe that Apple actually care in anyway about | their users? Fortnite and co. are going to be regulated | severely in the coming years - probably not by Apple. | | Have they not hosted Fortnite right up until they wouldn't pay | their rent? | cryptonym wrote: | > So I kind of hope that the EU allows third party stores, but | allows Apple to place curation constraints on the sort of | purchases that are available to users. | | If we follow the logic of Phones providing access to a market | that must remain "free" and allow competition, then constraints | on purchase might be something decided by | society/people/governments more than a single private company? | zepto wrote: | > then constraints on purchase might be something decided by | society/people/governments more than a single private | company? | | This is the worst possible (and likely) outcome. | | Stores lose the right to determine what goes in them, but an | expensive government scheme replaces that. | cryptonym wrote: | This is literally how it's implemented in the rest of the | world: store owner cannot list items that are restricted, | by law. Sotres can determine what goes in them, under | constraints decided by society/people/governments (law). | zepto wrote: | > This is literally how it's implemented in the rest of | the world | | Clearly not. | | Which department stores are forced to carry products they | don't want to deal with? | Wowfunhappy wrote: | Candy Crush Saga is in the list of Top Free Games on the App | Store. So was Fortnite, up until Epic decided they were tired | of paying the Apple Tax. | | Apple isn't defending users from games with manipulative | business models, and in fact is actively profiting from them. | This lawsuit is about Apple's _ability_ to profit from them. | dleslie wrote: | Very good points. We can't trust Apple to curtail | exploitative software. | | The EU has a proven track record of exploring innovative | regulation; perhaps they will find a solution. | mbreese wrote: | I wonder if this isn't going to have the opposite effect. If | Apple doesn't get to restrict application developers through the | App Store, then will they follow the gaming console model of | restricting access to the SDK? I mean, this isn't a new issue. | It's been the bane of game distribution for as long as we've had | independent game developers. But if you want to have some | semblance of control over a software ecosystem, could there be a | similar shift where users could install whatever software they'd | like... but the developers would have to be better vetted by | Apple first? | | For the sake of argument, let's just assume there are legitimate | security/privacy concerns here and ignore competitive issues a la | Spotify for now. | tomxor wrote: | At this point I wish there was a way that both could lose. | | It's the monopolist vs the predatory casino, both throwing out | thinly veiled user centric arguments at the press while their | true motives are greed and user exploitation. | dubcanada wrote: | I can hardly wait to use Amazon App Store to install Amazon and | then open up the Epic Game Store to install random game and then | open up EA Game Store to install random game and then open up | Facebook App Store to install Facebook and then open up the Apple | App Store to install the Blizzard App Store to install | Hearthstone and then go back to the Apple App Store and update | the Blizzard App Store so I can get the latest Hearthstone | updates. | | Going to be super fun! | | My gaming computer is already filled with like 8 different app | stores each completely different then the other and a variety of | privacy/security issues on each. All of them need their App Store | running in order to play their games, so half the time my | computer has 4-5 App Stores running in the background so I can | play a single game. And they are all electron/qt webkit apps | cause nobody builds apps anymore so each one consumes about 500mb | of ram. | | And each App Store also has their own chat system along with the | others like discord. | | I don't agree that Apple should have a complete monopoly, but the | alternative is not better. And while Android does have the main | Google Play Store, and there isn't to many "alternative" App | Stores at the moment. Just give it time, the same thing that is | happening to TV Streaming/Game App Stores will happen on Android. | lux wrote: | Instead of making the split at the app store level, enabling | other payment processors within the iOS app store would solve | most of these issues without creating a UX nightmare. That | said, I wouldn't mind competition at the app store level too. | martimarkov wrote: | As iOS user I completely disagree. I love the Apple platform | for the simplicity. Every time there is a payment I choose | Apple Pay as it's more secure than giving my card away. It | uses biometrics, not some static digits stuck with card if | you lose it. It's also more or less valid for Google Pay as | well. | | Having the option to use PayPal, Stripe, some other payment | processor increases the stress on the UX and also the attack | surface for fraud. | iknowstuff wrote: | Apple Pay is separate from In App Purchases and the app | store is not needed for its security features you seem to | like. Ironically, a payment processor like Stripe is | usually the thing facilitating Apple Pay support on the | backend. | martimarkov wrote: | My bad I didn't express myself completely. I enjoy the | fact that I have one account and I know EXACTLY when I'm | making a payment. | | When I get presented with the price and checkout in an | in-app purchase I'm sure that's everything I'm paying, | there are no hidden fees, it's secure and there is no way | for someone to steal my details. And it's the same flow | to make the payment: double tap the side button and scan | my face. This is the parallel with Apple Pay. Plus I | think the backend on in-app and in-store payments are the | same so it would be ApplePay. | amelius wrote: | "App Stores" are just synonymous with "content filter". | | Perhaps we should just name it such. | | So "App Store" becomes "Content Filter". | | And you can install any app you want from any URL, unless you | have some content filters installed, which will limit what you | can install. | | No more App Stores. | onion2k wrote: | I hate the fact I have to use Apple TV to watch Servant, | Disney+ to watch The Mandalorian, Netflix to watch Stranger | Things, and Amazon Prime Video to watch The Boys, and HBO to | watch Game of Thrones, and so on. I'd much rather all of those | other companies gave Apple a 30% cut of their revenue. | Terretta wrote: | While I 100% agree with the sentiment, I'm not fully | following these examples. On my Apple TV device, when using | the TV app, TV consolidates all those except Netflix into an | overall Up Next. I can watch next episodes directly, from | Disney+, Prime, Hulu, AMC+, Apple TV+, even AT&T, without | leaving the "TV" app. | | Additionally, not just up next, but based on my subscription | patterns, content from CBS, Showtime, Starz, AMC+, Epix, HBO, | Cinemax, Sundance, Acorn, BritBox, IFC Films, and MUBI, as | well as Apple's TV+ channel, are all browsable without | leaving the consolidated TV UI, and do not need an app | installed at all. | | From your list, Hulu, Disney+, Netflix, and Prime all do need | apps installed. I do have to go into these to discover their | own algorithmically proposed (personalized) thumbnails. But | for day to day watching, the only app needed for each brand | you happened to mention (except Netflix) is the TV app, and | when searching for a show, shows from all of these (except | Netflix) are in the search results. | | Unfortunately, there are apps that work on Apple TV that do | not play nice with the consolidated view and watch-roll. Some | that were well integrated, backed off, most likely having to | do with the waterline on viewer measurement / analytics data. | | Netflix is the prime offender here. It wasn't integrated, | then it was, then it wasn't again. They seem to have landed | on a (for them) happy medium, where if you have Netflix in | your home (top) row of icons on Apple TV's home screen, | "mousing over" (aka selecting w/ remote) the Netflix icon | does show you your Continue Watching and Trending Now | options, so you can go directly to those without opening the | Netflix app itself. But they no longer show up in even the | search interface, which probably keeps me subscribing to and | watching other sources more than I need to. | | To help give a signal to media owners, and to Apple, I | systematically un-subscribed through individual apps and | subscribed through the fully integrated "Channels" as those | channels appeared. This individual statement is lost in | statistical noise, sure. But what you describe is clearly | better for the home user, and if enough folks do it, they'll | catch on. | dkonofalski wrote: | I was arguing with someone earlier today about the | "sweetheart" deal that Amazon supposedly got from Apple and | it cracks me up that we have these situations live in the | world and the only company working to make this easier for | end users is Apple. The fact that Amazon (and other video | services!) can rent out movies within their platform as long | as they allow for integration with the Apple TV app is a net | benefit to consumers, imo. | calciphus wrote: | I'm confused by your statement. Why should those companies | give 30% to Apple? Also, many already do. | jonny_eh wrote: | Maybe they're being sarcastic? I can't tell. | ChrisLTD wrote: | It'd be nice if these companies could come to an agreement, | but 30% seems to be too high a cut. | valparaiso wrote: | Do you have any research why 30% is high and 20% is OK? | enragedcacti wrote: | Funnily enough the new Chromecast with Google TV is a better | experience for you than Apple TV. All of the services except | Apple TV that you mentioned are searchable and playable from | the home screen and Google doesn't have to take 30% of their | revenue to make it happen. | gpanders wrote: | I am not sure what the GP is referring to, but the Apple TV | does exactly this. | | On my Apple TV I can search for shows on HBO, Amazon, ESPN, | etc. All of my recently watched shows, regardless of | streaming service/channel, show up on the main "TV" page. I | can use Siri to search across all services, e.g. if I ask | Siri to play The Office it will find it on Peacock and play | it directly from there. | | The large exception here is Netflix, apparently they don't | hook in to the Apple TV API like the rest of these apps do | (I imagine it's the same on the Google TV). | adtac wrote: | why would each of these companies bother creating a new store | that requires eng resources, server costs, maintenance, etc. if | the total cost was less than Apple's unreasonable fee? doesn't | it simply mean that these companies perceive the value of | Apple's App Store to be less than the cost? | fhood wrote: | Sure, but I the consumer could give a rats ass about how | _they_ perceive the value of the app store. | BrianGragg wrote: | Why does Facebook want to know what you had for breakfast and | mad that Apple is wanting to limit their access to data and | share that they are collecting that information? | kgwxd wrote: | I'm sure every company already has infrastructure for | distributing digital resources over the internet, nothing | more is needed unless someone builds a toll road into their | platform. | rvba wrote: | > My gaming computer is already filled with like 8 different | app stores each completely different then the other and a | variety of privacy/security issues on each | | One could expect that someone on a forum called "hacker news" | knows how to close apps after running + also disable their | autorun at startup. | | Multiple app-stores are not that great, but still better than a | monopoly of one company that takes a 30% cut for every product | sold and in return provides an app that barely works (lags, | constant updates, constant questions about password if you dont | use it much). | | It's basically the same as having multiple icons provided by | multiple games. They also had different installers and privacy | policies. | | Competition among app stores means lower prices and cheaper | service. | swiley wrote: | If you don't like it then stop using crappy software. | | Right now the only choice people have for a phone that doesn't | force you to have an apple or google account is a pinephone and | this could potentially fix that. | kdmytro wrote: | Yes, freedom is such an encumbrance. Life is so much easier | when someone makes all the decisions for me.</sarcasm> | rebuilder wrote: | Optimistically, someone will make a metastore that provides | search across all the different stores. Sure, you'll have to | sign up for each separately, but that should be a one-time | deal. I mean, we kind of had that already before "software" | became "apps" - the WWW where any publisher could sell their | software on their very own website, free of interference. | kaibee wrote: | This exists actually. There's quite a few of them. | | ie: Razer Cortex | dubcanada wrote: | Then you end up at step 1, lol, same thing with TV. | | Channels are bad and too restrictive -> added cable TV | "stores" to buy movies/stuff -> Netflix -> Prime/Hulu/Disney | Plus/etc -> App to allow you to search through "channels" -> | welcome to TV from the 1990's with the added benefit of | millions or channels vs 1000's. | rebuilder wrote: | Edit for funniness: | | It's like the wheel that took a self-help course on how to | reinvent oneself. | jayd16 wrote: | You could use Apple sign in! Oh the irony. | mbreese wrote: | It's almost like console gaming would be easier, where if you | want to buy a digital game, there is only one marketplace to | use [1]. | | Oh wait. | | [1] yes, you can also buy physical games for most systems, but | that's in its way out too. If this plays out as expected, this | complaint is going to have a lot of collateral damage. | chromanoid wrote: | There is a difference between a video game console and a | portable multi purpose device with such a reach. Judges | should take this into account. With great power comes great | responsibility. | mbreese wrote: | Modern game consoles can do a lot... and have their own app | stores. Microsoft would love for me to use my Xbox to | stream Netflix. | | I don't think they are as far apart as you think. They are | both walled gardens that are heavily controlled by their | developers. | | Not to mention -- this all started with a game developer | that wasn't happy with the distribution of their game. | Nevermind that they abide by the same rules and fees for | Xbox, Playstation, and Nintendo. | | This isn't about Apple. It's about all of them. | lsh123 wrote: | There is a very simple solution - no App Store at all! I can | download and install anything I want on my computer. I can use | Google or bing or DuckDuckGo or whatever to find it. Why do you | need App Store in the first place? | LegitShady wrote: | flipside - I'm very excited for apple to be removed as the | gatekeeper to running any software at all on the devices. I'd | rather have too many stores than one gatekeeper who controls | all ios devices and takes a huge financial cut for the | privilege. | pennaMan wrote: | Before Apple blessed us with it's ground breaking technology to | restrict the software you are allowed to have on your own | device we did just fine getting software on our devices using a | file system and the internet. | curiouser2 wrote: | Yeah what the hell is this person talking about? How do they | think software was installed prior to Steam? | n42 wrote: | yeah! don't they remember the glory days and freedom of | choice to wait in a virtual line on GameSpy to download the | bandwidth limited patch from version 1.4 to 1.5 only to | realize they're on 1.2 and there is no delta patch from 1.2 | to 1.4 so they can either try again with the full upgrade | for 1.x to 1.5 which is about 10x the download size or they | can get each incremental patch from 1.2 to 1.3 to 1.4 to | 1.5? | | come on. there's a distinct value these app stores add and | there is a distinct value in having one for the platform. | | the ONLY benefit to this future is Epic gets a larger | slice. they will not "pass the benefit down" in some | trickle down user freedom economy. they will shove more | micro transactions and advertisements into every corner of | their marketplace. | spacebear wrote: | I would argue that removing the App Store as a single | point of failure for free speech [1][2] would be a pretty | big benefit. | | [1] https://torrentfreak.com/apple-bans-vpns-from-app- | store-in-c... [2] | https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/meghara/pakistan- | forced... | lkschubert8 wrote: | You have to realize that saying the app store is a single | point of failure for free speech is hyperbolic. | sheepdestroyer wrote: | Softwares can auto update and hide the process to the | user without the need for a store. | dubcanada wrote: | Going online to a download website and downloading what | ever you want. | | There has always been "app stores" if it's tucows download | or filehippo or gamespy or what not. | | Very few people google "simulation games" and scroll | through the pages and pages of google results and go | directly to a publishers website and download an exe that | they run. | | There is and always has been a middleman. | BrianGragg wrote: | Do you remember the hardware that existed at the time, the | GUI, the usability or non usability. There are two systems, | IOS or Android. I really respect Apples rules and appreciate | them. They stood their ground and prevented Cell Carriers | from loading their phone with CRAP ware that is non- | removable. Unlike android and any other flavor of phone OS | that has existed. IOS when it came out was a true game | changer. Its a very dominant player in the cell phone | industry because of it. | LegitShady wrote: | that has nothing to do with their abusive store policies, | and abusive store policies aren't required for the above. | NationalPark wrote: | Come on, we all remember what it was like going to Source | Forge and trying to figure out which download button got you | the malware you were actually trying to install. Don't | pretend like that was a utopia. | the_other wrote: | My desktop is a device for making, exploring, working, | tinkering, making mistakes, hoarding. My phone is a device | that solves problems or unlocks doors (metaphorically) near- | instantly. | | I'm tolerant to friction (some) on my "exploratory" device. | I'm intolerant to friction on my pocket-tool. The latter must | always just work or it is pointless. I'm happy to trade | freedom for stability for that use case, and deeply | frustrated to make that same trade for the other. | dkonofalski wrote: | You may have but the rest of the world did so with a lot of | hand-wringing and a boatload of viruses, toolbars, malware, | and everything else. | | As someone who has worked in IT and in tech support, I get | and agree with what Apple has done. | ubersync wrote: | I went into your history and ALL of your comments are for | defending Apple on Apple related stories or defending Apple | on non-apple related stories. You are clearly an Apple | shill. How much are you getting paid? | tester756 wrote: | You might like it or not, but his argument here actually | stands. | sheepdestroyer wrote: | App store are good, not argument. The inability of side | loading beside the store is what is being critisized. | dkonofalski wrote: | That's literally a major reason why people buy Apple | products, though. If you can't sideload things, there's | literally no chance of your phone being compromised by | those things. | conradfr wrote: | And yet the guy making bogus app clones with | subscriptions makes millions from the App Store (and | Apple takes its cut). | dkonofalski wrote: | What does that have to do with anything? That's still not | malware. | t-writescode wrote: | When the next Matrix or whatever service gets taken off | the app store for hate speech on decentralized servers, | I'll be grateful for a way to sideload if this goes | through. | | As it is, I have to trust Apple to "not be evil", | something Google certainly failed at. | stale2002 wrote: | > If you can't sideload things | | Ok, and if you simply had a setting that you could turn | on, that make it so your phone couldn't side load, then | you still get what you want. | | Everyone wins, by simply giving you the option to turn | off side loading, but letting others choose to do so if | they want to. | dkonofalski wrote: | No, everyone doesn't win because that exact situation has | already been used before by Windows with UAC and Android | with developer mode and malware/virus peddlers just | started to include instructions on how to bypass those | things. | matwood wrote: | Not sure why you're downvoted b/c FB was already caught | doing something similar with enterprise certs. | | https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/30/facebook_apple_ent | erp... | pombrand wrote: | > That's literally a major reason why people buy Apple | products, though. If you can't sideload things, there's | literally no chance of your phone being compromised by | those things. | | False. People who don't want to take risk simply don't | sideload, most people don't know how to anyways even on | android - having the /option/ to do so is not a negative. | | Android allows is and there's nearly no malware | https://duo.com/decipher/google-data-shows-tiny-fraction- | of-... | ClumsyPilot wrote: | Thats like claiming Isaak newton was a great scientist | because he stayed a virgin. | | People buy iPhones and tolerate lack of sideloading. | dkonofalski wrote: | What? That's a terrible analogy. I don't even understand | what point you're trying to make. Those 2 things aren't | related. A large percentage of iPhone users buy the | device because there are less avenues for issues. | nxc18 wrote: | If you're going to make that claim, you'll need to back | it up with literally any evidence or even anecdote. | | I buy iPhone because it is basically the only reliable | computer I own, and a single, reputable source of | software is a big part of that. Not being extorted into | installing Steam is a huge part of that. | | No, I didn't _really_ have a choice to install Steam and | I fucking hate it, thank you very much. | gerash wrote: | Is part of your reasoning also the fact that devs can't | even mention in their apps that they have a website that | users can buy their subscription from? | dkonofalski wrote: | No but that's a reasonable restriction considering that | apps would still benefit from the App Store ecosystem but | would be able to circumvent the requirements of it. | ubersync wrote: | Wait, what? You argued that a single app store makes | apple devices safer. How does not allowing devs to sell | subscriptions on their website help with this arguable | safety? Don't bullshit. | geocar wrote: | > How does not allowing devs to sell subscriptions on | their website help with this arguable safety? | | By making sure the user has a single channel for dealing | with payments and complaints. | | Deliveroo did an update their software that wiped out my | login settings. They didn't support apple login, so I | lost access to my account. They won't recover my email | because of a special character in it, and so they | continued to charge me for their "plus" service every | month, and avoided any emails I tried to send asking to | stop (asking me to "log in" to change my payment | settings!). | | Requiring apps use Apple's channel would have protected | me from that experience. | | > Don't bullshit. | | If you're not trying to be persuaded, why are you | arguing? | [deleted] | iknowstuff wrote: | FYI, the iOS sandboxing model is the innovation behind the | security of iOS. It is separate from the notion of having | an app store. Apps would be just as restricted from | accessing your data and modifying the OS as they are | through their own store. | | So this argument is wrong but will be peddled by Apple for | sure. PC operating systems had viruses because of the non- | restrictive, unsandboxed access their APIs gave to every | app. | nodamage wrote: | 1. Sandboxing might help prevent certain types of attacks | but the App Store review process goes above and beyond | simple API restrictions and imposes rules on _how_ you | 're allowed to use those APIs to prevent abuse of | privacy. For example: just because I grant an app access | to my contacts/photos for a legitimate purpose doesn't | mean I want that company to exfiltrate that data and sell | it to a third party. Sandboxing won't help you there. | | 2. Sandboxing is no panacea as we've seen from multiple | Android malware attacks that abuse system vulnerabilities | to break out of the sandbox. You're also underestimating | the amount of damage that can be done even _within_ the | sandbox: | | - The CryCryptor ransomware abuses file access APIs to | encrypt photos and videos on external storage and hold | them hostage. (https://threatpost.com/emerging- | ransomware-photos-videos-and...) | | - The DEFENSOR ID banking trojan abuses accessibility | APIs to steal login credentials, text messages, and 2FA | codes. | (https://www.welivesecurity.com/2020/05/22/insidious- | android-...) | threeseed wrote: | Objective-C based dynamic dispatch allows you to call | private, internal APIs from your code effectively | bypassing the iOS sandbox. | | App Store review process specifically checks for this. | LexGray wrote: | Part of the Apple sandboxing model is to run a check on | binaries to make sure internal APIs are not being abused, | or other shenanigans. I would not trust the Apple sandbox | at all, especially with the privacy in place which | prevents any sort of auditing of what people are doing to | their devices. | echelon wrote: | > I can hardly wait to use Amazon App Store to install Amazon | ... | | This doesn't happen on Android. | | > My gaming computer is already filled with like 8 different | app stores | | This is because game companies want to be middlemen in games | distribution. Games have communities, chat, matchmaking, | patches, DLC, DRM, sales and pricing engines, analytics, online | gaming, and a lot more complexity than your AirBNB or CashApp. | | It's also happening with streaming. Once game steaming gains | adoption, you'll see it there too. | | You're not going to stop this by defending Apple's moat. | | Forcing Apple to open up lets small developers get around the | Apple tax and draconian and arbitrary review process that | hinders their growth. It also lets people control the devices | they purchased, and defends software freedoms broadly by | discouraging the Apple behavior across the board. | CodeArtisan wrote: | Was the same with instant messaging software years ago; Aol, | MSN, ICQ, Mirc, Gamespy, Paltalk, ... | loceng wrote: | Where I want to also see this extending is for the platform | that Epic Games has created with the Unreal Engine. Should we | be able to load in any skins that we could sell on our own | store [- the users could decide to not allow/block them], etc? | This would help counter Epic's ability to simply make skins | that copy higher detail versions or make them look enough like | other mainstream-popular characters, e.g. the skin that by | users is called the "John Wick" skin - but it's not called that | by Epic, so instead that movie franchise could have created and | sold the John Wick skin on all game platforms for users to | integrate if they allow [e.g. moving towards the Ready Player | One movie]. | jrockway wrote: | It is annoying how every PC game company tries to be a social | network and persistent advertising daemon. But a launcher is | not necessary to keep an app updated. Look at Chrome -- you | install it, and it stays up to date. Blizzard could do that for | their games and Epic could do that for their games, but they | want extra money from putting ads in a launcher. (Actually, | they seem to always be "house ads", so they aren't really | making money, they're saving money. But at a Fortune 500, | saving money is basically the same as making money.) | | In-game chat could be XMPP or a more modern alternative, too, | and then you wouldn't need a separate IM client for each | ecosystem. | | Finally, I don't think anyone really dislikes the app stores | themselves. They are annoyed that they have to pay a 30% tax. | If it were 3%, I doubt anyone would be complaining. Apple took | a big gamble by being as restrictive as they are -- if they | win, they get free money for doing nothing; if they lose, they | get $0. I think history will show that they lose; app | developers have caught on. But, I could be wrong. | Zash wrote: | Aside: Epic Games already uses XMPP according to | https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/postmortem- | of-... | Moru wrote: | It's just natural that big game companies want to start their | own gamestore, it's easy money without having to come up with | original ideas again and again. And you can take a big cut of | the profits of the ones that makes the actual work. | | But we can vote with our wallet, it's a free market. I only buy | things on GOG. | MaxBarraclough wrote: | It's good that Steam has real competition now. For a long time | it was the only game in town. | | > All of them need their App Store running in order to play | their games, so half the time my computer has 4-5 App Stores | running in the background so I can play a single game | | You can always close down the app-stores you don't need right | now, but it's true they don't tend to give you the option to do | this automatically. | | > And they are all electron/qt webkit apps cause nobody builds | apps anymore so each one consumes about 500mb of ram. | | Agree, it would be nice if they were more lean. I'm seeing | Origin taking up >200MB just sitting there. | simion314 wrote: | This sucks, but who is guilt for this, the giant publishers, | why? because AppStores have a big tax , so competition that | would lower the tax would solve the problem, | | Is same with video streaming, the giants don't want other | giants to get a big cut without working hard. | | IMO , AppStore competition should be like web hosting, | competition is large enough so you have enough choice to buy | exactly what you want. Imagine if you want your web page to be | visible on Apple stuff you need to pay 30% of your profits to | Apple and only if Apple likes your page content. | valparaiso wrote: | 30% is one of the lowest fees in the market. Amazon's Twitch | takes 50% fee. Also Tencent, who is behind Epic Games lawsuit | takes 50% fee in China with their Android App Store. | simion314 wrote: | So? on MacBooks you can download and install any | applications, including GPL ones for free, no censorship or | GPL aversion issues. Because inn your opinion Apple shit | stinks less still you should have the freedom to not eat | it. so you should have the choice not to use the store | slowmovintarget wrote: | If only Apple could, say, permit payments outside of the Apple | store for apps installed from the store... | | This was the real problem. Apple has to get a cut if you run | the app on an Apple-made device and either sell the software or | charge money for digital goods at all. | | There is only upside for Apple with these restrictions, so I | see them continuing to fight this fight with the excuse being | "Customer experience, security concerns," etc, where the | reality is maintaining the wall and gate in their garden. | [deleted] | munificent wrote: | Say you had the choice between: | | 1. Buy game X from Apple's app store for $39.00. | | 2. Buy game X from X's own app store for $30.00. | | Would you install X's app store then? Would you at least want | the _option_ of choosing that path? | rodgerd wrote: | It won't be an option. | | It will be install Epic store if you want Epic games. | | Install uPlay if you want Ubisoft games. | | And so on. Oh, and none of those will provide information | about tracking and privacy breaches, because that's part of | the business model. | Elegia wrote: | I think that having to make that choice in the first place is | exactly what most iOS users want to avoid. | drstewart wrote: | Except we all know the real option will be to buy game X from | X's own app store for $39.00, so the only thing the consumer | has gained is extra friction in exchange for the developer | pocketing a larger share. | hajile wrote: | But most people won't be bothered to use other stores (just | like most Android users don't use other stores). | | The real solution there is forcing digital sales to include | a perpetual license to the software independent of the | platform. The current digital monopoly culture is against | the overwhelming majority of citizens. | jayd16 wrote: | This is a false dichotomy. Something could be set up that | allows the current convenience of the Apple app store in a more | federated way. The hoops are put there purposefully. | cma wrote: | One solution is Apple could add a feature where you voluntarily | pay $50 to not be able to use other stores, and you could | purchase it. | ClumsyPilot wrote: | I would like to see that experiment play out. | | Somehow the locked down 'S' version of windows is not very | popular. | valparaiso wrote: | > Somehow the locked down 'S' version of windows is not | very popular. | | It doesn't have any benefits. | cycomanic wrote: | I wonder what we used to do before we had appstores? That must | have been a horrible time. And we didn't have amazon either how | did we even shop? | | Sorry for the sarcasm, but why do we even need appstores, apart | from it being a website to download stuff? | parasubvert wrote: | Simple answer: People didn't use computers or phones to do | most things. They'd pick up the phone and talk to a human, or | they'd go to the physical store, and talk to a human. | | Nothing wrong with that, but app stores, among other things, | made computers far more accessible for non technical people, | to do things like shop from their couch without talking to | anyone. | rodgerd wrote: | We had people install a thing from whichever site they found, | often with a toxic payload because third-party sites gamed | results to end up above a company, or via sites that started | trusted but were taken over by scamware, and then never | updated anything, falling prey to whatever virii were doing | the rounds. | croes wrote: | So you prefer the console situation? A game is PS or Xbox | exclusive so instead of just another store you need a | completely other hardware for hundreds of dollars. | unanswered wrote: | While we're at it, why does there need to be 18 brands of | deodorant? I think regulations should be in place so there's | only one brand! | 015a wrote: | Suggesting that iOS should not be more like literally the most | vibrant, healthy, popular computing platform ever created | (Windows) is borderline delusion. | | The Mac is great, but the Mac App Store is garbage. And that's | the iOS analogue there. That's because Mac has alternatives; | centralized, forced big-tech App Stores don't work in the face | of alternatives. The only platforms they have worked on (iOS, | lesser degree Android) only work because of the Big Tech | monopoly. | | What sucks more for consumers: Having to install the Epic Games | Store to play Fornite, or not being able to play Fortnite? | Those are your two options. You want to believe there's a third | option where Big Tech Opoly is allowed to run a centralized | draconian app store for perfect user UX. This third option does | not exist; its availability over the past decade was a blip | destined for the footnotes of history. | | Hell, go over to Linux and juggle the multiple package managers | and package availability between them. That's the natural state | of the world; developers hold the cards, and they'll do what is | best for their business. The App Store is fighting against | nature, and that fight is always a losing one. Always. There is | no third option; its just a matter of time. | malka wrote: | It sucks way more to have a new app store per company. | | as a user, I WANT a single app store, that is heavily | curated. | | As a surprise, who do NOT want that ? Companies already | pushing garbage on my desktop computer so I can play their | games. | sergiotapia wrote: | I categorically disagree. It's your choice to use one store on | PC. Epic and a lot of people are asking for the choice. You | don't have to make that choice since no one will force you. | fbelzile wrote: | You mentioned it yourself, most third party developers still | use the Google Play Store on Android. The same will be true if | the App Store continues to provide a better user experience. | You might need to pay a little more for a game from the App | Store, but I'm willing to bet most people will pay for the | peace of mind. Let people decide whether the Apple tax is worth | it or not. Either way, you're going to end up with a more | efficient system where end users are paying an Apple Tax that | is closer to the cost of running the store. | | This does mean that Apple will need to start upping their game | by either lowering their fee (which means lower costs for you) | or supporting other independent games that deserve attention in | the App Store. | | Furthermore, iOS is a well designed platform with very tight | security restrictions. You don't need the App Store to do that, | it's build into the platform. | keepper wrote: | ...or Apple could be a true platform and not compete unfairly? | | You know, just a thought. | | They want secure app distribution? Great! Build an equitable | charge model. Charge for transactions, charge for usage, don't | charge flat rates that don't scale. Certainly don't prohibit | other payment gateways. | | And certain don't punish your competitors in ways you don't | punish yourself. ( blanket certificate removals for a company | and all its subsidiaries) | | The ends do not justify the means. Apple can run a profitable | and secure app distribution platform. It requires being open | and fair. They are not doing that. | LexGray wrote: | The threat model Apple is addressing by not allowing third | party payment systems is user privacy, issues many systems | having securing that data, and dark patterns vs subscription | cancelation or outright scams. | | It is not an unreasonable thing to offer a platform with that | security built in. | | Blanket punishments are about the only thing that works on | large corporations. Everything else can be worked around. | Facebook would not have budged an inch on their app unless | half their company was shut down a day. I have no doubt part | of the point of Epic trying to bypass the billing system is | to get additional user data they can monetize. | | While it is true Apple is neither open or fair, it is | reasonable to assume the many of the apps on the store have | no intention of being either open or fair either. Apple is | trying to stand between the consumer and rampant corporate | ethical lapses. That they are also doing so in the name of | corporate greed makes them hard to defend, but then I hate | how much of my income funds the police. | stewx wrote: | I recently discovered Playnite, an open source PC game library | manager. It connects to all the stores and aggregates them in | one place. You can also configure your own emulators for older | games, etc. I can now view my DOSBox games and | Steam/Origin/Epic games in one place. | | https://playnite.link/ | dubcanada wrote: | huh, this is super interesting. Thanks for that | random5634 wrote: | It's even worse, a lot of the app stores are going to want to | leverage violation so privacy, security, auto-billing etc to | generate at least short term margin at expense of trust in | overall apple ecosystem. | | Right now I'm PRETTY sure I can't get screwed by a random | subscription. Having played with some of the others, definitely | not true elsewhere. | CivBase wrote: | > My gaming computer is already filled with like 8 different | app stores each completely different then the other and a | variety of privacy/security issues on each. | | Do you honestly think this is a worse scenario than having to | buy all of your apps/games through Microsoft's app store? Can | you imagine using macOS without homebrew because everything has | to come from Apple's app store? Can you imagine using Ubuntu | without apt because everything has to come from the Canonical's | software center? Even Android is made slightly more tolerable | by the existence of F-Droid. | | Being able to use your preferred software manager/store for | everything would be nice, but I don't know of any platform that | lets you do that. You either have to deal with multiple | software managers and use your preferred one as much as | possible, or you're stuck with whatever the platform forces on | you. I definitely prefer the former. | Terretta wrote: | > _everything has to come from Apple's app store_? | | See SetApp for MacOS _and_ for iOS: | | - https://setapp.com/ | | - https://setapp.com/how-it-works | judge2020 wrote: | Contrarily, MSFT being the one to approve all code would be | good in that it would destroy the current Windows code | signing racket that only six companies have access to[0]. | | 0: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows- | hardware/drivers/da... | | (thankfully MSFT is indeed working on their own first-party | code signing solution https://youtu.be/Wi-4WdpKm5E) | BillinghamJ wrote: | Absolutely yes. As a user, I really wish Microsoft required | the use of their store. Having a single place to go is a lot | easier | wazanator wrote: | What you want is Windows 10 S mode. | | https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/s-mode | BillinghamJ wrote: | Only works if it's enforced for all users though. Having | all the Windows apps in the single official store is | really the only possible way for it to function | | Obviously never going to happen, but it'd be a much nicer | ecosystem if it did work that way | dannyw wrote: | What you are wishing for though is the death of computing. | CivBase wrote: | Maybe you'd be interested in joining the dozens of other | Windows 10 S users. | ryandrake wrote: | Same here. As a user, I would _rather_ have direct download | /installation, aka sideloading. But absent that, I would | much prefer to have all my applciations available on one | store. Having to download multiple stores in order to get | multiple applications is pretty much the worst outcome. | SomeHacker44 wrote: | Quibble: I cannot stand the Microsoft store because I | cannot simply delete the apps or even understand why they | are there even after I told it to uninstall. I also cannot | easily move apps between drives or even control which drive | something is installed on sometimes. Steam is the best this | way, IMO. | BillinghamJ wrote: | That's actually one thing I quite liked about it - | there's some option to just switch an app from one drive | to another, and it's one of the only things I've found in | Windows which actually "just works" | danShumway wrote: | It sounds a little bit like you're arguing that we should get | rid of DRM. The interesting thing is that all of those app | stores allow you to import other games. You can already manage | your entire computer's gaming library on Steam -- or you could, | if the games weren't tied by DRM to a specific client. DRM is | literally the entire reason why Epic and Origin have a download | client in the first place. If it didn't exist, you could use | one client to manage your games today. | | I don't see people complaining about GoG or Itch.io on this | point, because you can download your games for those systems | using a web browser and import them into any game manager you | want. | | It also sounds a bit like you're arguing for federated | standards, which is also a thing that we could do. Nobody | complains about there being too many repository remotes in | Linux, because you wire them up to whatever package manager | you're using and that's it. Your setup doesn't become more | complicated just because you're using extra software sources. | It's still the same commands to search for software and update | your system. | | This is already how F-Droid works, and it's great. Anyone can | set up an alternative repository to F-Droid and I can use them | as a software source within F-Droid. It's also the way that | your podcast app works. Nobody complains that there are too | many platforms for hosting and distributing podcasts, because | as long as you avoid bad actors like Stitcher, you just install | one app and manage them in one place from every source. | | You're looking at games on the desktop through the lens of the | model that Valve popularized by being a dominant player that | refused to play nicely with anyone else. There are plenty of | ways to design an ecosystem for managing stores without turning | your computer into a cesspool of DRM. And Apple could do that, | it could build a framework that required 3rd-party stores to | work like software repositories. | | ---- | | Look at all of the fragmented broken systems you're complaining | about -- the vast majority of them from video, to music | streaming, to game purchases, are fragmented because they are | deliberately designed to not work well with each other because | the companies want consumer lock-in and DRM. But that's also | exactly what is Apple is doing, they're just in a position of | power so they're the only people doing it. | | People didn't notice that Steam's way of managing games was | fundamentally broken until other people copied Steam's strategy | and made the downsides obvious. You're noticing the same thing | with Apple's app store. You're noticing what goes wrong when | app stores are designed using Apple's template -- when they're | designed to restrict consumer rights, lock them into platforms, | and force competitors out of the market, rather than when | they're designed to be standardized clients that serve the | user. | | > And each App Store also has their own chat system along with | the others like discord. | | Why does a games distribution platform have a chat system in | the first place? Aren't all of those chat systems basically | inferior to Discord in almost every way? The Unix way of | handling this is that whatever chat system you're using should | be able to talk to Steam and get events from that client -- it | shouldn't be bundled into Steam itself. | kgwxd wrote: | One of the alternatives is better. No app stores! The world | simply doesn't need them and we should be pushing for nothing | less than their complete demise. | SamuelAdams wrote: | Takes me back to the days of Warcraft 3 and The Sims on | Windows XP. Go to the website, or install from a disk. Launch | the game with a desktop icon. No app store needed. Updates | are installed when the game is launched. No need to announce | to all your friends that you bought a game, no need to have | an integrated chat client. Just nothing but the actual game. | agentdrtran wrote: | Choice is better than not having it. | valparaiso wrote: | Who's gonna pay for supporting that "choice" and new attack | vectors like when we had tons of Fortnite malware after | launching Epic Game Store outside Google Play Store? | xxs wrote: | I'd have zero care if I have to 'download' stuff from a website | and run it. The entire idea of store/aggregator is ok but the | lack of choice to do as I please with the thing I own doesn't | sit right. | jacquesm wrote: | These app store requirements are ridiculous. An app store is | something that should be 'up and running' when a user wants to | buy an app, not to serve as the continuous anchor point on a | users device to fleece them further. This has really gotten out | of hand. | curryst wrote: | This. The reason app stores suck so much isn't their | distribution of apps. They do fine at that, and it would be | easy to switch binary distributors. | | It's the value-added services that are inexplicably linked | that bug me. Why can't I allow push notifications without | Google's app store? And why can't I use Google's app store | without getting bundled into dozens of other services? | | Allowing other app stores isn't going to be very compelling | so long as Google and Apple can force you to use their app | store if you want access to their value add services like | push notifications. | katbyte wrote: | If its not on steam/ps4 i don't play it. if its not on the mac | store or in homebrew i am very unlikely to install it and will | seek an alternitive. | | If it won't be on the ios apple store i won't install it. | marmaduke wrote: | You can buy pasta at a few different stores, a caulk gun at a | few different stores, clothes etc etc. Why would software be | different? | colejohnson66 wrote: | Food exclusives aren't that much a thing. Sure, I can't buy | Good & Gather or Up & Up (Target brands) at Walmart, but Up & | Up napkins work just as well as Great Value (Walmart) | napkins. An Epic exclusive _requires_ the Epic Store. Maybe | for things like flashlight apps or Flappy Bird clones you'd | be easily able to find a version on your favorite store, but | AAA games are different. For example, if GTA VI (whenever it | comes out) is an Epic exclusive, I'm not finding a GTA VI | copy of the same caliber on Steam. | SCHiM wrote: | You install those yourself you know. I'd rather have a choice | than not. | | I feel your pain in the sense that that I think user UX will | take a hit, but I think that's less important than breaking the | monopoly of the current app store. | | For example, I can't find apps with pornography or other types | of things the high overlords at apple or Google have deemed | inappropriate for me to have. That's bad. Apparently apps like | Matrix fall under that category. It'd be nice if I can choose | what I want to see. | jpttsn wrote: | Wouldn't Apple just ban you from installing the Porn Store? | Or do you think Epic will make them allow any and all | alternative app stores? | CivBase wrote: | If Apple allows you to install alternative app stores, I | assume that means they allow you to "side load" apps. If | that's the case, Apple can't really ban you from installing | anything. | jpttsn wrote: | So they would be unable to ban the Pirate Bay Store, the | Scamcoin Drug Store, the Cracked Epic Games Store, the | Tiananmen 1989 Store? | CivBase wrote: | They could, of course, ban third-party stores from their | own app distribution platforms. Otherwise, I imagine not, | in the same way that most other general purpose operating | systems cannot "ban" things like that. I suppose they | could require all apps to be signed and subject to remote | signature verification before the OS lets you install | them. | LexGray wrote: | This sort of banning is the very thing Epic appears to be | trying to prevent. I would guess their legal endgame is | to forbid anyone but government agencies impending a | store for any reason. Once this is in place there will be | no legal way prevent Apple from securing devices from bad | actors in the store space. | | Edit: In this scenario I am guessing it will not be | Apple, but the government who will need to step in and | sell store licenses to prevent illegal content... so yay | for bribed big government over authoritarian Apple. | BrianGragg wrote: | The problem is the choice is taken away from you though. Just | like he said with the game market. If you want to play Game | A, you go and download/install Game A's publishing app store. | If you want to then play Game B, rinse and repeat. You will | be forced to use so many different app stores and won't have | a choice to NOT use their app store "IF" it progresses like | it has on the desktop. No proof it will/won't either. | 015a wrote: | As opposed to Developers not having the choice to | distribute their own app stores? | | There is no solution to this problem that benefits everyone | perfectly. There are only solutions which are better than | the solution we have today. | | Actually, there is one near-perfect solution; Apple reduces | their cut to ~5% and stops enforcing their insane rules. | But that's not happening. | | You, and many others in this thread, are blaming Epic, | Steam, Blizzard, etc. That's fundamentally flawed thinking. | All of this is Apple's fault. 100%. If the government | forces Apple to destroy the UX of iOS, its because of | actions Apple took which forced their hand. There are | actions Apple could take which would abate this. They | aren't taking them. You should not be mad at developers; | you should be mad at Apple. | parasubvert wrote: | All of WHAT is Apple's fault? Providing a service that | consumers want to use and preventing other companies from | ruining it? | | Telling consumers they should be mad at Apple is absurd. | I am not mad at Apple, I am mad at Epic for wasting | everyone's time with this case that they know they will | lose, purely to shape public opinion. The judge so far | seems to be projecting this is what will happen. I also | don't like relying on regulators to force changes in a | market they know little about. Interfering with a | successful model that consumers LIKE and WANT into | something else does not benefit consumers. | | Benefiting other developers is completely irrelevant to | the point of antitrust. That's just corporate welfare. | | Apple would be best to lower their rate a bit, clarify | certain inconsistent rules, and not abuse the review | process, but otherwise I do not want multiple App stores | and prefer Apple to regulate their store over the | government. I guarantee you there are far more consumers | that share this opinion than not. We really could care | less what developers are whining about Apple's policies | or retail cut. If you can't build for iOS at a profit, | find something else to do. | | The government isn't going to force a change of the iOS | UX, that's a pipe dream localized to Hacker News and | Epic's board room. Apple isn't a monopoly by any | definition of the term. You could declare them a utility, | but that won't have the effect you expect. | | To believe that iOS, a platform with 15% market share, | somehow represents the end of platform history that needs | government intervention, is the height of lazy thinking. | Build a better ecosystem. Apple did it barely 14 years | ago when they were a fraction of Microsoft's size, and | everyone said it was impossible. | rodgerd wrote: | Apple make their devices for their customers. I don't | really give a fuck about what toxic crap developers want | to be able to get away with. | threeseed wrote: | The best developers are selfless and put the interests of | users first. | | Those "insane rules" are an example of that. | 015a wrote: | Which developers are those, exactly? I'd like examples. | | Is Apple one of them? The company which disobeys its own | App Store rules in the usage of push messages for marking | AppleCare, Apple Music, Apple TV+, Apple Fitness, and | Apple Arcade? The company which goes beyond this and into | marketing these services within the literal Settings app | of iOS, an avenue that no other developer has access to? | | Is Apple putting the interests of their users "first" by | restricting the distribution of cloud game streaming | applications without being able to review the individual | games within the service? How so? It doesn't put _my_ | interests first, and I 'm an Apple user! | | So, oof, ok, they're putting the interests of the | nebulous, general, undefinable "prototypical user" first; | not me, naturally, not millions of other users, but some | unknown user out there. Though, by serving the interests | of this unknown prototypical user, they're actively | hurting my interests! | | Is Apple putting the interests of users "first" by | forcing a 30% tax onto any transaction made in the store? | I mean, if one analyzes it with all the critical thinking | of a seventh grader, sure. They're protecting their | users! From the evil, icky "other" credit card processors | like, uh, Visa! and Stripe! Those guys will steal your | data... or, uh, I guess they wouldn't, actually they're | fine, but then apps could use whatever processors they | wanted, including ones which steal your data! I mean, | lets ignore that Apple could require developers to use | one of a set number of approved safe processors, because | jeeze, that would destroy the whole argument, wouldn't | want that. | | Oh, right, I forgot, Apple is being Fair! They don't want | to give special treatment to other payment networks, | because then they'd have to pick which ones are safe and | show favoritism. There we go, an Unassailable stance. | Wait, but... Apple only enforces the IAP Framework | requirement for Digital purchases... plenty of apps use | whatever payment processor they want, including bad ones, | as long as its for Physical goods. Weird... and didn't | Apple give Amazon special treatment with Prime Video, for | Digital goods, allowing them to bypass the IAP Framework? | That's right, they did do that... | | Jeeze, this is looking pretty bad for Apple. I mean, | they're the ones making the rules, and they can't even | operate in a position where the Nebulous and Undefinable | Interests of Unknown and Uncountable Users is put | "first". What hope does anyone else have? | | Except, maybe, just maybe, their hope lies in not | treating users like babies who need a nanny to make rules | in the first place. I know, its crazy, but hear me out: | there was that one time I was drinking from my bottle and | the nipple fell off and I split milk everywhere, it was | such a mess, my mommy was so mad! But, I'm still here. | Growing. Learning. Making dumb, shitty comments on the | internet. Capable of (most of the time) acting like an | adult and making my own decisions. I'm capable of | deciding for myself whether something is Safe, whether I | want to take the risk, and hedging myself and my | interests when those risks turn sour. Every human is. We | can't operate in a nursery for our entire lives and | expect to grow as people, or even as a species. | | There is so much more that iPhones, and mobile computing | in general, are capable of; so lets go do it, and lets | not pay Apple 30% and deal with their App Review Team in | the process. Because I already paid them fair and square | for the phone. That should be enough. | ballenf wrote: | As a developer I just don't like the precedent that if | I'm _too_ successful at creating a great product that I | therefore lose control over the very qualities of my | product that made it successful. | mitchdaily wrote: | This applies to everything though. If I drill of oil and | am 'too successful' and abuse my position the Gov cracks | down on me. Same if a telco is 'too successful' | | And you are forgetting that 'too successful' in these | cases is: _literally has billions in profit_ uses market | position in an anti competitive way | wayoutthere wrote: | You can't have both a secure platform and a platform | where anyone can arbitrarily run code without a | gatekeeper. | | Apple is that gatekeeper because I, the user, want them | to be. Apple has shown me, as a user, that the trade off | they make between giving developers open access and | protecting users from malware to be a sane one. | | Does it make it harder to monetize an app? Totally, but | for many iPhone users, that's a feature, not a bug. The | developers are not apple's customer, so they're not | building a product around their needs -- which we | honestly need more of in tech. If I felt more strongly | about Apple being a gatekeeper on its own platform, I | might use Android in some flavor. But I just want a phone | that works and has the apps I want to use without a bunch | of garbage cluttering it up. | MR4D wrote: | > Actually, there is one near-perfect solution... | | So your perfect solution is to recreate the mess that's | on the PC??? | | I don't think you understand - we _don 't want_ that. | That's why people like me, my wife, my kids, my parents, | my relatives, and most of my friends buy an iPhone - so | we don't have to go through that hell. | | The number of people who buy a iphone for sheer | simplicity is enormous. My friend's Android has a better | camera, a different friend's Android has some cool games | that I can't get. _But that 's OK_, and it's _my_ trade- | off to make. | | If Blizzard really doesn't like Apple, when why don't | they fork Android and make their own phone and have a | cool backend like Unreal engine running it? They have the | resources and the fans to do it. And frankly, it'd | probably be really freakin cool. | la_oveja wrote: | Buying a phone just for a game is the solution instead of | actually being able to install whatever you want. Are you | even thinking before hitting "reply"? | Jonanin wrote: | You think blizzard has the resources, know-how, | marketing, and brand recognition to build and | successfully launch a phone that competes with the | iPhone? That is just short of delusional. You really have | no idea what you're talking about. But I'm glad you like | the iPhone. | reader_mode wrote: | Meh - eventually things work out for the best of the | consumers most of the time - for eg. epic game store just | gave a bunch of titles free no strings attached a while | ago, EA store used to have free stuff as well. | | End of the day you have to have enough value to get people | to inconvenience themselves - I'd rather that this value | gets shelled out to users as enticement to install some app | store than Apple capturing that money simply because their | store is the only one allowed to exist on the platform. | [deleted] | ntsplnkv2 wrote: | This is short-sighted. | | The App Store is good because it is closed and curated. | That's a main driver of the product experience. Removing | the App Store irrecoverably damages the iPhone - a | curated, non-malware infested, high quality phone with a | consistent experience. | | I have yet to see any argument how the App Store harms | consumers. It helps developers make more money (Play | Store revenue is half that of the App store's apps), it | helps consumers stay protected from malware infested | applications and is easy to use. | | Where, exactly, is the harm? Now Epic with their gambling | games will be able to rip off kids even more in their own | store? Fantastic. | AttakBanana wrote: | Um, the harm is 30% more expensive apps. If devs can't | avoid the cut, its only going to get passed down to the | user. | ntsplnkv2 wrote: | Ahh so harm now is spending any money. I was harmed by my | grocery store for charging me 1.50 for milk! | | 30% is more than fair. People spend more money on the App | Store than competitors. Developers want access to that. | it shouldn't be free. | nodamage wrote: | Except in the real world when we see games offered in | multiple places (e.g. Steam and the Epic Game Store) they | are usually the same price. | | In other words, any savings from the developer cut is | simply kept by the developer, _not_ passed onto the | consumer. | katbyte wrote: | how is it 30% more expensive apps when the play store, | ps4 store, xbox store all take the same amount? | AttakBanana wrote: | Because all of them take a 30% cut (*some exceptions to | certain apps apply) | | https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report- | steams-30-cut... | | What I mean is, if Apple's cut was lesser / we had | different app stores, prices could potentially be up to | 30% lesser. | Dylan16807 wrote: | Even assuming the only reason App Store revenue is that | high is because of the store itself, we shouldn't treat | the policies as one indivisible work set in stone. | | You can have a properly curated store with 10% fees, for | example. And you can block malware without blocking | alternative web browsers or game streaming apps. | ntsplnkv2 wrote: | The policies are more than fair. | | People on HN get mad when others make money, but they | never get mad when they want to make money too. | | > You can have a properly curated store with 10% fees, | for example. And you can block malware without blocking | alternative web browsers or game streaming apps. | | It becomes much more difficult and time consuming, and | why 10%? The service is unbelievable - it provides great | access to a platform and its high spending users. That is | worth more than 10%. | solveit wrote: | We used to download almost every program on their own | website until just a couple of years ago. It'll be fine. | judge2020 wrote: | It'll be fine: | | https://patrickspokemonpalace.files.wordpress.com/2010/06 | /ie... | | https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/antivirus- | software-... | ocdtrekkie wrote: | App store monopolies have not meaningfully hindered this. | | To your first example: Most malware infections on PCs | today are distributed by the Chrome Web Store. | (Preventing malicious extensions was Google's excuse for | blocking third party install... but since they don't even | attempt to control malware they distribute first party, | it's hilarious.) If they tell you they have a virus, open | their Chrome extensions tab, remove everything, and | you're good. | | If anything, centralized app stores _magnify_ the | problem: By making every single app submitted look like | it 's coming from a reputable source. If app stores did | any realistic good job at policing malware, instead of | focusing on policing their revenue tax, they might be a | benefit. | | But again, malicious apps can have millions of installs | and nobody does anything about it. Epic decides to charge | 18% less and circumvent Google and Apple's taxation, and | they act in less than 12 hours. | babypuncher wrote: | App stores do hinder this when they are resonably well | moderated. Google makes almost no effort to do this. The | extension markets for Firefox and Safari are | comparatively malware-free next to the Chrome extension | store. | ocdtrekkie wrote: | Indeed, the problem is scale. Companies like Google and | Apple end up employing cheap, low quality labor to review | apps and extensions instead of high quality technical | personnel. | | Bear in mind, if Google and Apple had to compete in this | aspect, it's possible users would actually choose and | prefer a third party store with better curation. So | they'd have an incentive to improve their review | processes. | dwaite wrote: | > Companies like Google and Apple end up employing cheap, | low quality labor to review apps and extensions instead | of high quality technical personnel. | | I will need to see evidence Google employs people to | review third-party software. | [deleted] | jaegerpicker wrote: | Apple's own store proves this incorrect. Apple's App | Store has VERY few instance's of Malware (at least in the | sense of exploiting security issues). The App Store does | have an ongoing issue with dark patterns and subscription | fraud, no doubt but in general Apple's App Store is the | by far the best and safest App Store for consumer. I'm an | app developer and the App Store has more than it's share | of issues like discovery and subscription fraud but ALL | of those issues are worse on other more "open" platforms. | wvenable wrote: | Isn't more a question of sandboxing than the app store | itself? Installed apps on iOS just can't do every much. | | What is considered Android/iOS malware these days is much | more tame than what malware used to be. A cryptolocker on | iOS is basically impossible. | SCHiM wrote: | I recognize the fact that the argument is exactly the same | as for not opening up the appstore in the first place. But | the importance and scope of it is less if the store is | open. | | Now you can chose to buy en expensive device (or you did in | the past and can't de-apple due to lock-in) or not. In the | future you could chose not to buy photoshop because of | their insistence on their app store dependency. | | I think having a more granular choice is good. Like I said, | that UX hit, imo, is less important than the monopolistic | behavior displayed now: | | The apple "tax" (including the rules around links to | donation pages and similar nonsense). Curation that cannot | be overridden by end-users. Unpredictable policy changes | for developers. 1st party appropriation of successful | independent applications. Unfair competing (think browser | javascript engines). | | I think bad UX is less important than those things listed | above, that's the argument. | CodeMage wrote: | > _You will be forced to use so many different app stores | and won 't have a choice to NOT use their app store "IF" it | progresses like it has on the desktop._ | | You're only forced to use stuff when you're in the small | minority that cares about not using stuff. Moxie | Marlinspike explained it perfectly in his DEF CON 18 | keynote. | | Thing is, I don't think there's any conclusive proof that | the majority of customer would be okay with what you're | describing. | | Most of us on PC are getting along just fine with one or | two game launchers. I'm using GOG and Steam. My kid uses | Steam and Epic. | | When Funcom tried adding their own launcher for Conan | Exiles, the vast majority of players berated them so hard | on their forums that they removed it. | bluefirebrand wrote: | You have the choice to not go play a game if it isn't on a | platform that you want to install. | | This is somewhat similar to "I don't want to buy an XBox | just to play this one game". Of course the barrier there is | often a monetary cost. The software platforms are free to | download so there's no real barrier. | | But for instance, I don't particularly like Epic Games | attitude around buying exclusives so I don't use their | store. I have missed out on some games I might have enjoyed | as a result, but I still have lots to play elsewhere. | [deleted] | jwagenet wrote: | You have the choice to not use iOS and not use the Apple | App Store. You might not like Apple's attitude around | their operation of the App Store so you don't use their | devices. You might have missed some great apps, but there | are still many great alternatives on Android. | croes wrote: | Imagine the same choice on a PC. Microsoft doesn't allow | a ceeatin software just switch to MacOS or Linux. All the | software you previously bought is useless and you have to | buy it again. So because multiple AppStores is too much | of hassle you need to keep multiple smartphones or buy | the same software twice. | [deleted] | deftnerd wrote: | Considering the tight integration of the OS and the | hardware, I would offer the comparison that it's more | like a CPU not allowing any code that's not signed by | Intel to run. Or, more aptly, only allowing one specific | OS to run on their CPU and that OS has a restrictive | policy on application usage. | | Sure, you could go with AMD but does having other choices | excuse a company? It certainly violates the spirit of | anti-trust laws. Apple makes and controls 46% of all the | mobile devices in the US. The nearest competitor is | Samsung, who makes 25%. | | If Apple allowed other OS's to operate on their phone, | then they could say "If you don't like our integrated app | store policies and policy of not allowing other app | stores, use a different OS". But until they do that, the | OS and the hardware have to be seen as one thing. | enos_feedler wrote: | Apple makes and controls 46% of all the mobile devices in | the US because their methodology for designing, building, | distributing and iterating on the product is successful. | Consumer satisfaction, retention and growth are bi- | products of this success. Apple doesn't play mean tricks | to gain market share. They simply build great products, | invest more in innovation (CPUs) to continue making great | products. The m1 chip shows this. You can't pick apart | what Apple does and give it some attribute/feature of an | ecosystem model. Right now the market is Apple vs. | ecosystem. Consumers have choice to buy from Apple, or | buy from an ecosystem. We should focus less on trying to | handicap Apple and start figuring out how a leader in the | ecosystem can rise above it to compete with Apple head | on. | StavrosK wrote: | So it's either a choice between "not running some | specific game/app whose publisher made their own app | store" and "not running any iOS app because my only | option is to not have an iPhone"? | | I know which one gives me more choice. | llbeansandrice wrote: | Why is more choice necessarily good, besides simplified | theory about capitalism? Brands have built their entire | success off of providing less choice to consumers and | they, in general seem to be successful. See Apple and | Trader Joe's. | | Choice is good when there's direct competition. Companies | will compete to have better app stores if I can choose | which app store I want to use. I as a consumer will get | to choose what games I want to play. It's bad for me as a | consumer that I also have to choose which app store I'm | using to download that game. | | Also both things can be bad, but I personally feel that | the model where people like Apple due to the "ecosystem" | seems to have worked pretty well for a lot of consumers. | I don't think "more choice" is a good metric here at all | because it's false. I don't care about having more choice | in app stores(and I'm not getting to chose which app | store I use under either model anyway), I care about my | choice of apps. Which isn't really changing, companies | will get their product to consumers. | Retric wrote: | We have more choice today, because currently Android and | iOS have different models. Break up the App Store and | your left with a single model. | | What nobody is talking about is Epic could completely | avoid the premium their complaining about by using a | website for all transactions. Just like the Kindle App or | Netflix etc. The only thing they get from this lawsuit is | in app micro transactions. As such it's really a question | of business models not consumer choice. | bluefirebrand wrote: | > We have more choice today, because currently Android | and iOS have different models. Break up the App Store and | your left with a single model | | What a goofy point of view. | | If there are two restaurants in town, and only one | grocery store, would you conclude that eating out is | better than cooking your own meals because you have two | restaurant options instead of just the one grocery store? | yellowapple wrote: | > What nobody is talking about is Epic could completely | avoid the premium their complaining about by using a | website for all transactions. | | Epic would also need all paid transactions to originate | entirely from said website - i.e. there would be no | ability for their own apps to even send users to that | website. There have been multiple horror stories about | app developers trying this exact approach and Apple | turning around with "nope, pay up your 30% cut". | Retric wrote: | Yea, you need a login page that's: | | _Trying to join _? You can 't sign up for _ in the app. | We know it's a hassle._ | | Not: | | _Trying to join _? click here_ | | But, actually following the acceptable approach and you | don't run into issues. | issamehh wrote: | Reading Apple's policy makes it seem not so simple. | Netflix, for example, avoids the cost because it is a | subscription service which is specifically excluded from | having a cut taken out. I can't speak for Kindle, but | when I very recently read over this it was clear that | just routing to a site to handle the purchase would not | be sufficient to bypass this | mmastrac wrote: | And likely Netflix et al were grandfathered in because | Apple _couldn't_ strongarm them. If Netflix was invented | post AppStore, I'd wager that Apple would have them | paying Apple taxes regardless. | judge2020 wrote: | > which is specifically excluded from having a cut taken | out. | | Netflix is constantly at odds with Apple. You can't | subscribe via the iOS app store and they don't even link | to the Netflix website due to Apple's rules and how they | want their 30% cut for app store-driven traffic. | | https://techcrunch.com/2018/12/31/netflix-stops-paying- | the-a... | threeseed wrote: | > constantly at odds | | Provides an article from 3 years ago during which time | the sign-up flow has not changed and Netflix has exploded | in growth. | judge2020 wrote: | There doesn't need to be constant news about Netflix | changing stuff, they still don't like Apple's rules about | it and there are still no links to netflix.com in the | app. | | > Trying to join Netflix? | | > | | > You can't sign up for Netflix in the app. We know it's | a hassle. | judge2020 wrote: | No, your freedom of choice is only one level deep. You | can either choose iOS, which includes 'runs only apple- | approved software', or choose any other OS which runs | other software. | | This is basically the right to repair / right to do | whatever you want with your device debate. You can't | force Apple to program the functionality for running | other people's code into iOS, but it's legal if you | figure out how. This is exactly what went down in 2010 | with Cydia [0] - it's fair use to modify your own device, | but that doesn't compel apple to make it easy to do | so[1]. | | 0: https://www.wired.com/2010/07/feds-ok-iphone- | jailbreaking/ | | 1: https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2010/07 | /dmcae... | colejohnson66 wrote: | Nitpick: that exemption is from 2010. The DMCA _mandates_ | an exemption be granted every three years for something. | Meaning: in 2013, that exemption was gone unless it was | exempted again. And again in 2016. And again in 2019. And | so on. The DMCA does not include an "exempt once, exempt | forever" clause, sadly. | | Thankfully, we've had the EFF to campaign for exemptions, | but it's frustrating having to go through the whole | ordeal every three years because Congress can't be arsed | to fix it. | | 17 U.S. Code SS1201(a)(1)(C)[0]: | | > (C) During the 2-year period described in subparagraph | (A), and during each succeeding 3-year period, the | Librarian of Congress, upon the recommendation of the | Register of Copyrights, who shall consult with the | Assistant Secretary for Communications and Information of | the Department of Commerce and report and comment on his | or her views in making such recommendation, shall make | the determination in a rulemaking proceeding for purposes | of subparagraph (B) of whether persons who are users of a | copyrighted work are, or are likely to be in the | succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by the | prohibition under subparagraph (A) in their ability to | make noninfringing uses under this title of a particular | class of copyrighted works. In conducting such | rulemaking, the Librarian shall examine-- | | (followed by a list of things the Librarian will | consider) | | [0]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201 | efdee wrote: | There is no choice being taken away - you don't have a | choice at this point - you must use "the" App Store whether | you like it or not. | | Maybe the Apple App Store can get it's shit together and | present a less hostile environment so these companies are | able/willing to distribute on the Apple App Store again, | and then you'll actually have a choice. | ryandrake wrote: | In both cases, I as the user, have no choice: | | 1. Apple wins = I have no choice but to use the app | store. | | 2. Epic wins = I have no choice but to install multiple | different app stores to run many different apps. | ntsplnkv2 wrote: | You make that choice when you buy the phone. | | You are not buying an iPhone and the software separately. | It is one product. The App Store is the product. | fbelzile wrote: | No, you buy the phone hardware and a license to use iOS. | The App Store is a service provided by Apple that you | should have a choice to use or not. The Apple Tax is what | you're 'buying' from Apple when using the App Store | service. | ntsplnkv2 wrote: | This is not accurate. I never "buy" a license explicitly. | I buy the phone explicitly. | | I can't "buy" iOS and put it on any phone. The phone and | software are inextricably linked. It is one product. | | > The App Store is a service provided by Apple that you | should have a choice to use or not. The Apple Tax is what | you're 'buying' from Apple when using the App Store | service. | | You can extend this to any level. This is like | complaining "I don't want to use Amazon to buy things on | Amazon.com" | simias wrote: | There are plenty of cross-store games on PC. And even if | some games end up being exclusive you might still benefit | as a player thanks to the competition. If Epic started | offering a very bad user experience game devs would | hesitate to publish exclusively through them because they'd | fear reduced revenue. | | It's also a very good thing for game devs who aren't at the | mercy of the whims of a single company. Steam no longer | wants to work with you? Go to GOG, Epic or even self- | publish. | jaegerpicker wrote: | Epic _DOES_ offer a terrible experience, especially on | Mac. It crashes ALL the time. It 's terribly slow. It | regularly consumes over 50% of available Ram and CPU. It | still has exclusives and it's the only place I can get | Unreal Engine if I want it. The PC game market is a prime | example of how this common knowledge not being true at | all for consumers. A couple of years ago steam was really | the App Store for games and the user experience was far | better. Now it's the worst it's been ever. Gog, UPlay | Connect, Origin, Steam, Epic Game store etc... All with | exclusives, all with massive privacy issues, all worse | for consumer's. | | The only way to truly improve it for consumer is to | require that all platform's be open source. That I could | get behind but it will never happen. | Arainach wrote: | > Epic started offering a very bad user experience game | devs would hesitate to publish exclusively through them | because they'd fear reduced revenue. | | This is demonstrably not true. Epic's launcher has been a | laughing stock since it was announced. | | * It only recently got any form of Achievements (that are | completely undiscoverable) | | * It has no way to join a party with your friends. I | _think_ it has Friends support but am not sure because | you can 't do anything at all with your Friends so I | never even look. | | * It has no way to get support (their "troubleshoot" | guide amounts to 'clear your cache, run as Admin, then | try reinstalling: https://www.epicgames.com/help/en- | US/epic-games-store-c73/la...) | | * Half the time their UI elements don't work (I just went | into the "Troubleshoot" section and the back button | doesn't work, so I had to close the whole window and | start over) | | * There are no user reviews of games | | * Their store and library sorting is a mess that makes it | difficult to find anything | | * They launched without even having cloud save support | | Epic's game store is underpowered, buggy, and miserable | to use - and plenty of companies still do exclusive deals | with them because Epic holds a bag of gold in front of | their face. They even do it when it breaks their own | promises, like when IOI decided to launch Hitman 3 after | promising they'd import Hitman 2 purchases - and then | apparently totally forgot that Hitman 1 and 2 were on | Steam and Hitman 3 was on Epic, so while XBox and | Playstation users got their levels migrated on day one PC | users are still out of luck a month later. | cycloptic wrote: | Is all of that really a problem when the companies seem | to have shown that none of that matters? The increased | cut is apparently more valuable to them. | | And I also should note, half of those items don't need to | implemented in a store. People ask for them because they | are implemented as extras in other stores, but strictly | speaking the distribution and support are the only things | the store needs to have to be called a store. | Achievements, friend lists, user reviews, and cloud saves | can be provided by separate services and work just as | well, and could result in a higher cut for the vendors if | the store doesn't have to shelter the cost for that. | Arainach wrote: | That sounds like the same class of argument as "all an | operating system needs to provide is process scheduling | and hardware access". It doesn't match user expectations | and it certainly isn't a good user experience. Having to | sign into a different account for every game to get basic | functionality is a nightmare. Users want to purchase a | game from a store, install it, play it, and have | everything work. That's it - no other configuration or | connections required. | cycloptic wrote: | The answer to that isn't putting all stores but one out | of business, it's having a single-sign-on provider. | vinger wrote: | None of those sounds like a very bad user experience. A | very bad experience is games disppearing different games | appearing after purchasing something else, games not | working, memory usage too high..etc | | No user reviews, no easy help button for noobs, no cloud | save, only recently got achievements, can't crush a | friends party. all sound like little nice to haves that | don't add much value. Does it allow me to find/play the | game? Everything else takes time away from playing. | throwaway3699 wrote: | Then, no offense, but you might not understand the market | very well. Achievements and friends are table stakes | these days. Games are primarily a multiplayer experience | with friends so platforms absolutely need those things | before locking games as exclusives. | | This would be like shipping an OS without internet access | to end-users. | vinger wrote: | An OS doesn't ship with internet access. You may get | internet as a separate service later and connect it to | your computer which has an OS. | | I'm not sure you understand the market. If saving to the | cloud is a must have feature your game will provide it. | Ditto for multiplayer. No one is refusing to play a game | because the platform you purchased the game on doesn't | have an easy help button. | Negitivefrags wrote: | I actually think it is you who doesn't understand the | market. | | Nobody cares about centralised achievements any more, and | most people don't particularly like having different | friends lists for each service. | | People would rather organise a game through something | like Discord that is entirely seperate to the store | ecosystem. | throwaway3699 wrote: | Hmm, maybe achievements aren't as popular as I once | believed, but I do think there's unnecessary friction to | joining a friend's game with Epic's half baked model. | It's one of those things that nobody notices until it's | missing. | | I'm not saying you need a full social network on every | platform, either. | lapetitejort wrote: | > Achievements and friends are table stakes these days. | | Nintendo must have missed this. | throwaway3699 wrote: | In fairness, Nintendo consoles were always designed | around couch co-op, and that is a big failing of the | biggest PC platforms. | Arainach wrote: | Nintendo's online services are, and always have been, a | disaster. | gknoy wrote: | It likely depends on your friends or the games you play. | I don't think my friends care to know that I am playing | the Witcher, Cyberpunk, Battletech, Mechwarrior, or | Jotun. Friends might care to know that I'm online, and be | able to message me, but to be honest Discord or other | social networks (Steam, Blizzard) already cover that. | I've actually been quite happy with GOG's interface, for | example. | simion314 wrote: | I think EA created a game store because it feels parasitic | that Valve could take 30% of your sells, why not make your | own store and keep the 30% . | | What I would do is force EA to put their games on all | stores, then on their own store they can give you a 25% | discount because they don't have to pay the tax. Then | people could decide if they want store A, B or C version. | | If the store tax would be low enough there would not be | such a pressure from the giant publishers to avoid the | store, as a person that don't like giants I hope that this | giants fighting each other will benefit us by breaking the | monopolies and ensuring that all stores will play by fair | rules and respect all consumer rights. | dkonofalski wrote: | It's not parasitic of Valve, though. Valve created the | storefront and platform that has all of those customers | baked into it. EA is not just paying 30% for the | privilege of selling their game, they're paying for the | customer base that they haven't had to work to establish | on that platform. | simion314 wrote: | I will disagree, you can see the entitlement of users | that demand the game,movie or payment system must be | exactly his preferred one. Though for Valve you can | compete with them (but people hate it but I think they | don't hate the actual competition but the shitty | implementation of the stores and the fact this game | launcher most of the time must be run in background ) BUT | with Apple you can't compete, they have up to 50% market | share in some countries and if you are a business half of | your existing customers(that you earned fairly and were | not gifted by Apple to you) will ask for an iOS app and | now you either give a bad experience to your customer or | you pay the tax. | | About the argument that Apple,Valve gives you access to | many users, sure that should be price correctly, | developers could pay for getting promoted on the first | page of the store, but Apple,Google should not get a cut | for promoting my app if the user installed it starting | from my own website. | dkonofalski wrote: | >BUT with Apple you can't compete, they have up to 50% | market share in some countries | | That statement isn't true no matter how you slice it. | Apple's largest competitor is Google so the idea that you | can't compete with Apple is nonsense. And what countries | does Apple have a 50% market share in? | simion314 wrote: | US, mobile market , ask Apple fanbous about app sales and | they will proudly tell you how Apple stores has more | sales. Ask same guys about monopoly and they will then | count the entire world, count all computers and dumb- | phones and pretend Apple is the little guy. | | I fucking can't compete with Apple, say I am a | bank/store/club and my customers(not Apple ones) want a | mobile app, how can I give the 50% of my customer my app | without having to pay Apple , if I try to sell something | or put a link to a page of mine for buying subscriptions | or stuff Apple will demand a cut(I know they were forced | to be less greedy lately). | dkonofalski wrote: | 1. Sales != market share but that's not relevant. Even a | >50% share isn't a monopoly if there are multiple other | competitors in the remaining 50%. And I don't think | anyone is misrepresenting Apple's position. The word | "Monopoly" has a meaning. Apple does not fit that | meaning. | | 2. You can't give your customers an app without paying | Apple if your customers are demanding it work for Apple | products. That doesn't mean you can't compete. You can | still only sell to Android users and other phone users | but you have to do so with the understanding of what that | means. You're still competing. That's like saying you | can't compete with Windows when you only release your app | for Linux. That's your choice. You're still competing | against Windows. | stale2002 wrote: | A literal monopoly is not required for something to be | illegally anti competitive. | | All that has to happen is that a company has significant | market power. | | And courts have held that 50% of a given geographic area | can fall under anti trust laws. | dkonofalski wrote: | That's completely fine. The current situation already has | precedent in courts considering that Sony, Microsoft, | Google, Apple, Amazon, and many others have exclusive | control of their App Stores. Claiming Apple is anti- | competitive because of its platform would upend all of | these platforms. | simion314 wrote: | I know Apple is very dear for many people but let's think | different , say 49% of the radios in people homes and | cars are made by Huawei and if I want my radio station to | work on this radios I need to pay Huawei 30% of my | profits and I can only have content approved by Huawei | just in case is not respecting the correct values. It is | ridiculous right to have a radio or TV device put | artificial limits, | | Your second point is again invalid, say Apple is blocking | my website because I said that they are greedy, this is | fine in your opinion because I can still show my site to | PC and Android users and you can't even see yet the abuse | that is happening, Apple should not decide that they | don't like the politics on an app or book and not allow | the user the freedom to install it, they can block it | from the store sure but the user should have the freedom | to use his brain and install what he wants, The same for | say a group of developers or musicians that want to | compete with Apple products , like the Apple Store, or | Apple Music or whatever games they have, it is actually | ilegal for Apple to abuse their market share in | smartphones to give it's own products an advantage. (yeah | actually the law does not say you must have 50% +1 market | share) | _jal wrote: | > It is ridiculous right to have a radio or TV device put | artificial limits, | | I take it you then also demand that Sirius and Comcast | broadcast anyone who brings them any old content, then? | Everything should public access? | | For that matter, terrestrial radio stations also must | broadcast the End is Nigh clapboard kooks, too, right? | simion314 wrote: | This is frankly a stupid comparison, I did not ask that | Apple put my game, music or books in their store and | promote it. I ask that the device can be used without | limitations. There were laws that forbid radio devices to | be "locked" and there were also laws for phones to also | not allow locking them to a specific carrier (the | exception was that if you were getting the phone with a | discount with a 2 year contract after the 2 years you had | the right to unlock your phone for free). | | I would appreciate if you try a bit more to make the | distinction between Apple Store market and just he | hardware(the laptop or phone). | dkonofalski wrote: | Both of your analogies are flawed. | | 1. Huawei, in your example, didn't create the radio | station platform. We're not talking about publicly | accessible platforms, we're talking about a app platform | that Apple created, cultivated, and maintains 100%. | | 2. Again, this analogy has the same issue. Apple doesn't | own the entire internet. If Apple started blocking | websites, that would be wrong because those websites | existed and continue to exist without Apple. The App | Store does not have that same providence and was 100% | created by Apple. | | No one ever said that you have to have 50% + 1 market | share so I don't know where you're getting that from. | Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Amazon, Google... all these | companies own the marketplaces for their devices. This is | not illegal and there is precedent protecting it. | simion314 wrote: | No, you are trying to make it appear that it is | physically impossible to run an application on Apple | devices without using the store, This is FALSE, see the | laptops , you can run applications without using the | Apple store or their dev tools. So users should be | allowed same fucking freedom on the phones as on the | laptops, the only excuses I see are "most iOS users are | retards and they will get scammed" or "Apple should have | the right to be assholes and abuse their customers if the | market allows it and don't dare try to question Apple, | even when they make mistakes they are perfect" | Notorious_BLT wrote: | It isn't entitlement for consumers to look at a company | saying "you can buy this game, but only on our own | launcher/storefront" and say "okay, then I won't buy it". | Users don't like juggling Steam, Origin, Uplay, Epic, and | whatever other launchers/storefronts. If publishers feel | the additional sales are important, they can make it | available through Steam. | simion314 wrote: | I don't think there is any sane user that will say | something as stupid like "I wish Cool Game 3 would be | only on Origin(or only on Steam). So we should try to get | most games on all stores not try to get them only on our | facorite store. | | The issue with the launchers is indeed a problem, the | solution is to have the games run without the shitty | launcher. So if you want to buy and play a game you can | open your browser, find the best deal, buy the game and | if you want do a direct download and play, or use a | launcher, install the game then kill the launcher and | play the game. This is the GOG model, you don't need the | launcher. | | So IMO the launcher issue should be addressed by fixing | it, not by praying that there will be no competition in | future so only my favorite launcher will exist. | ClumsyPilot wrote: | Valve is not parasitic because its pimint out it's | customers? That a stange argument if I ever heard one. | | I could accept this if valve store didn't take 20 seconds | to load on an 8-core machine. | notthemessiah wrote: | It is parasitic, but I think in the bigger scheme of | things, Valve is a lesser evil than Epic, which is in | itself a lesser evil than Apple. Valve is investing in | its own capital as well as the infrastructure for the PC | gaming industry at large (Vulkan and driver | improvements), whereas Epic has no endgame but to gain | market share using bottomless VC pockets. Apple, while a | company with some merits, utilizes vertical integration | that is overall harmful for user freedom, especially when | it comes to the right-to-repair, and is only using its | revenue to further remove themselves from the large tech | ecosystem and build up the walls of its gated community | with their own unique hardware/software. | dkonofalski wrote: | You and I must have different definitions of parasitic. | Apple is providing services to developers and, in | exchange is receiving payment for that. Developers | shouldn't be able to take advantage of the benefits of | the platform without paying for it. | | Everything else you said is irrelevant. | simion314 wrote: | Apple provides a hardware thing, users pay for the | objects, Developers should pay for the IDEs or compilers | if they want to use Apple tools and the user should have | the freedom to decide what to put on his piece of | hardware, | | But sure, if I put my app on the store I should pay for | hosting it, for the updates and reviews, I should pay if | I want it to be promoted on the store but I should not be | forced to say pay Apple a tax for shit like soem | subscriptions or books I sell from my app, I should pay | Apple for the store services they offer. | | Also Sony and Microsoft should not be immune either IMO | dkonofalski wrote: | >I should not be forced to say pay Apple a tax for shit | like soem subscriptions or books I sell from my app | | If you're selling them from within the app, you're making | use of Apple's payment and subscription infrastructure | and the customer base of iOS. Those things _are not | free_. | simion314 wrote: | That is the issue, Apple is abusing it's power but not | letting you even put a shitty link to your website if on | that website you were selling stuff. | | I agree if you as a customer pay with Apple payment | system Apple should charge you a fee, but you as a user | should have the freedom to see a link to a product page. | | Check all the rule changes Apple were forced to do, they | reducing the tax and reducing the scope when to apply it, | the Apple fans were sure that Apple was perfect before | this changes and for some reason Apple changed it's | perfection now and can it be more perfect??? Was the last | change the last one, can't Apple be even more perfect | then more perfect and offer the user the freedom that | they do not deserve?? | | The changes in policy show that Apple was not in the | right and it is not perfect and there is a large chance | that the last changes were not enough and they need to | slowly give up their control , but squeze as much money | as possible because "this is the way" | LegitShady wrote: | Apple does provide services but.yoj cannot opt out. It is | by definition rent seeking. | zwily wrote: | s/Valve/Apple/g | PeterisP wrote: | Well, the difference is that with Steam EA gets the | choice whether they like the "extra marketing" for that | price or not. If a customer wants to buy something from | EA outside of Steam, EA is permitted to sell it to them | without ripping up their Steam distribution channel - | which is not the case for Epic/Apple. | dkonofalski wrote: | Yes it is. Epic is allowed to sell to every other person | that's not an iOS user without ripping up their iOS | distribution channel too. They chose not to do that, | though, and then shot themselves in the foot on top of it | to try and stick it to Apple. | dkonofalski wrote: | Yes. Exactly. | mcfedr wrote: | I guess here is less about your choice as a consumer, but | the choice of the publisher | georgeecollins wrote: | The entity that makes Game A has a choice where the app is | sold. So, for Example, EA sells games on Origin but also | Steam. There are lots of apps that are in many stores. | | On an iOS device, the entity that makes the app has no | choice of what store to be in, they must be in Apple's. | That is a monopoly. | | As many have pointed out, if you only want to get your apps | from one store-- like Apple's-- you could chose that. But | currently you can't choose to use another app vendor. | AmericanChopper wrote: | Well, everything is a monopoly if you define the market | specifically enough. | Daho0n wrote: | You can abuse your market position without being a | monopoly. | AmericanChopper wrote: | Of course you can. But the parent comment doesn't put | forward any argument for why they think that's happening. | They're just saying Apple has a monopoly over Apple | customers. Which is more of a truism rather than anything | insightful. | babypuncher wrote: | If that choice of app store actually matters to you, then | you have the option to choose an Android phone instead of | an iPhone. You're not being relegated to some obscure | platform with no app support like people who didn't want | to use Wintel in the '00s. | joshuaissac wrote: | Google Play Store's revenue is half of that of the Apple | App Store, so choosing only Android instead of both | platforms would cut the expected app revenue by about | two-thirds. Google also has similar app tax policies to | Apple (and there is an ongoing lawsuit by Epic against | them), so they really are relegated to the more obscure | app stores. | ntsplnkv2 wrote: | That's because Apple's app store has better quality apps | due to curation. The minute iPhones are opened up, the | value of the App Store will tank considerably, and many | devs on here will be up in arms, complaining about all | the flood of free apps that have destroyed their market. | | The fact is the App Store helps everyone. It curates apps | for most people, it helps developers make more money (as | you said, double the revenue, well worth the 1/3 cut, | that no longer applies to small apps), and it helps Apple | innovate on their hardware product. | heavyset_go wrote: | > _That 's because Apple's app store has better quality | apps due to curation._ | | Is that why I found a dozen Chinese knockoff | BonziBuddy[1] clones on Apple's App Store? | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BonziBuddy | ntsplnkv2 wrote: | If you want to create anecdotes to prove a point I won't | waste my time. The problem is far, far worse on Play and | Android. | joshuaissac wrote: | I do not agree that the revenue is necessarily because of | higher-quality apps. Apple iPhones are regarded in many | markets as luxury goods bought by people with more | disposable income, so the increased revenue could well be | attributable to having a wealthier customer base that is | willing to spend more on app/in-app purchases. In this | case, opening up the market to competition might be | beneficial to existing App Store developers. | | App Store does help developers make more money than if | they were not on it, but being on it is the only | practical way for them to gain access to iPhone users | (they could ask users to jailbreak their phones instead | but that is impractical for most). If the courts order | Apple to allow competing app stores, users would still | benefit from Apple's curation, and developers would still | benefit from the distribution by using Apple App Store, | but they would have a viable choice of picking another | app store without having to change to another OS (for | users) or abandoning the largest market (for developers). | ntsplnkv2 wrote: | Sure it is - because Apps are curated, you can charge | more for them. If there are free alternatives available | everywhere, people will be less likely to pay. | | > In this case, opening up the market to competition | might be beneficial to existing App Store developers. | | Only true if the 50% revenue increase disappears (Which | is likely with a flood of free apps). Not only that, but | more free apps = more privacy violations. | | > App Store does help..... | | So the App Store is a net benefit - what, exactly, is the | problem? There is no demonstrable harm. The small apps | got a cut on the fee earlier this year. Now it's just | megacorps trying to get as much of the pie as they can, | in a way that hurts consumers. | | Also allowing 3rd party applications to control critical | features is a privacy/security issue I haven't seen | addressed. | dwaite wrote: | A fair portion as well is that Apple takes | paid/subscription apps on the store more seriously. Apple | believes people should be willing to pay money for things | (since Apple sells products) and Google believes people | want advertising-supported free content (because that is | _their_ business model). | spacedcowboy wrote: | If EA win their fight, I can't really see them offering | their app on the Apple App Store. | | So, really what this is about is choice for the big app- | manufacturers, including games. It has nothing to do with | user choice at all, and the cost is borne by the user | (who has a far shittier user-experience than they do | now). | flohofwoe wrote: | If it makes EA more money, they will absolutely sell | their games on other app stores, see Origin vs Steam. | spacedcowboy wrote: | But it won't, will it. That's the entire reason they want | to do it in the first place - to make more money for | themselves. | | They want in on the platform, without paying the fees | that being on the platform requires. | stale2002 wrote: | Sure they will. If apple reduced their fee to something | like 5%, I am sure that even most large game developers | would use it. | pwinnski wrote: | Right, it's a monopoly for app developers, much more than | for users. | Daho0n wrote: | Users have even less choice then developers. | katbyte wrote: | You could always just not play Game A? | sigzero wrote: | You never had a choice with Apple. That is their business | model. You choose or don't choose to work in that model. | Epic Games is pathetic. | criley2 wrote: | >The problem is the choice is taken away from you though | | All Apple has to do is compromise on the 30% number. | They've taken it to the extreme and demanded 30% of | everything, 30% of subscriptions, 30% of every dollar. | | It's outrageous and developers who are perfectly capable of | either self-hosting or finding a solution for cheaper than | 30% OF ALL REVENUE deserve to keep the 25% of that revenue | that is pure profit to Apple. | | Apple created this situation for themselves and they will | have to give up sooner or later. | | Steam makes plenty of concessions for the 30% number and | now allows basically pass-through games so that a much more | wide variety of titles can appear there even if they aren't | paying a full tax to the storefront for appearing. | | I mean, could you imagine a world where Wal-Mart was the | only store your Toyota car was allowed to drive to, and | Wal-Mart charged their suppliers 30% of all revenue to | appear on the shelves? | | What is happening with the App Store monopoly is truly | outrageous, it's an unimaginable amount. 30% is why Apple | is going to lose here. If they were willing to be | reasonable, it wouldn't get to this point. | katbyte wrote: | how is the app store any different them the play/ps4/xbox | store which also take 30% cut? | ethbr0 wrote: | > (from parent) _need their App Store running in order to | play their games_ | | This is the real UX problem. | | I have no problem _buying_ from a variety of stores. I do | that in real life. Most required (pre-Covid) me to walk in | each of their doors. | | What's a problem is requiring the installed & running | presence of a particular App Store to _run_ an app. | | If I legally purchased something, why is a particular App | Store even still required? If I want to re-install (new | device) then I can download it again? | | If we're talking updates... I'm happy to forgo update | pushing. And renting software with subscriptions just needs | to die. | flohofwoe wrote: | Microsoft, EA and Ubisoft eventually caved in and offer | their games also on Steam. | | EGS "exclusives" are usually timed exclusives. You wait | half a year or so, and get a more stable, better optimized | and usually also cheaper version on Steam too. If you want | to play an EGS exclusive game immediately, installing EGS | isn't a big deal either. | | So far, having multiple competing app stores on PC has been | a win both for users and developers. Choice is always a | good thing. | the_af wrote: | There are alternative stores for _the same game_ on the | desktop. A trivial example is that some games can be | installed directly by downloading a file from the | developer, or via Humble Bundle, GOG or Steam. | | So this business model is possible. And it's the | friendliest to end users, too. | bombela wrote: | Many standalone downloads in fact come with the publisher | app store. Thay must runs in order to start the game. The | end result is the same. And the store will update the | game anyways, often re-downloading the equivalent of half | the game (we are talking 50GB scale here). | | Sometimes you can use another publisher app store. Which | will in fact start another app store upon starting the | game. In turn starting the game. And the game itself will | also ask you for a game studio account. So you need 2 app | store and 3 account to play the game. And I am talking | about single player game here. | yellowapple wrote: | > Sometimes you can use another publisher app store. | Which will in fact start another app store upon starting | the game. | | Not saying this doesn't ever happen, but I've used Steam | for more than a decade now and not once have I seen that | happen, ever. | | Yes, some games have separate launchers, and yes, | sometimes these have support for their own separate | accounts and mod loaders and such, but not once have they | actually been full-blown alternative app stores. | | I don't buy very many modern AAA titles, though, so that | might be part of it. Still, of the ones I do buy, none of | them have installed some alternative store. | jamesgeck0 wrote: | Practically every game from EA or Ubisoft on Steam | published within the last eight years or so does this. | Daho0n wrote: | And they do so because people support it. | afterburner wrote: | Many games are exclusive to the Epic launcher, or | Origins, or Uplay. Many games are multiplayer are require | logging into the above launchers even if theoretically | you could somehow separate the game itself. | tomc1985 wrote: | When things work that way, then great! | | But a number of high-profile publishers (Rockstar, | Ubisoft, EA) force you to use their app platform even if | you purchased the game on Steam. I bought Far Cry 5 on | Steam, and running it first launches Ubisoft's launcher, | which usually needs to update (why????), then I can | launch the game. GTA Online freebie in Epic Store, first | has to start Rockstar Social Club (which also usually | needs to update), then finally runs the game. FIFA on | Steam forces Origin, and so on. | | It's a lot easier to deal with if you use a game launcher | like Playnite, or should I say a _launcher launcher_ , | but with the rigarmarole you have to go through just to | start one game suddenly your launcher launcher is now a | _launcher launcher launcher_. | bombela wrote: | At this point I barely play anymore. Because with all the | intermediate updates and transient failures, it takes | longer to start the game than the time you would spend | casually playing during a week evening. | threeseed wrote: | Exactly why people buy consoles. | | For the same experience as you get with an iPhone. | cgriswald wrote: | The problem referenced by the GP is _worse_ on consoles | in my experience. Did the system software get updated | today? Well, no network features for you until you | download it. | | What about that video streaming app? Well, there's a new | version, so you have to download that right now or you | can't watch. Oh, and we logged you out. Get out your | phone or computer and type in this link. Then log in | there and type this code. Make sure you enable all | javascript because otherwise this won't work. Also, there | will be an awkward pause after the computer tells you | you've activated where the console won't indicate the | same and you'll wonder if it even worked. | | Granted, some consoles handle this better than others. | tomc1985 wrote: | Agreed. I have definitely been favoring platforms that | let me run the binary directly, which is really just GOG, | Patreon projects, and open-source. | cafed00d wrote: | > It'd be nice if I can choose what I want to see. | | Have I got news for you?! You can choose exactly what you | want to see. | | There's a very cool "App Store" on your iPhone right now. | Somebody in marketing named it "Safari" -- IKR! pfft; -- | Safari is one of the best App Stores out there. It has this | neat interface called "URLs" where you "search" for Apps and | apparently they run on this HTML5 voodoo magic; which is a | set of open standards, run by the open committees (W3C); and | here's the best part -- JavaScript! Yes! No more pesky Xcode | tooling and Objective C and Swift and C++. Bleh! | judge2020 wrote: | You can even hit the share button then 'add to home screen' | if you want easy access to the site without the URL bar (at | least for PWAs; regular sites will just open a safari tab). | colejohnson66 wrote: | I know this is a joke comment, but isn't JavaScript | supposed to be the joke language here on HN, not | Objective-C/Swift? | jquery wrote: | >I'd rather have a choice than not. | | Then get an Android if you like that experience? | ricardobayes wrote: | Freedom of choice is an illusion, with the advance of | megacorporations, even so. They will choose for you. | pedroma wrote: | Have you looked into PWAs? Sounds like they'd fit your use | case. | babypuncher wrote: | You won't have a choice when some critical service you use | moves to a third party app store in order to avoid Apple's | new privacy policy. | malka wrote: | I'd rather Amazon, EA, Blizzard & cie have no choice. | outworlder wrote: | > I'd rather have a choice than not. | | You don't have a choice with many of them. Some publishers | force you to use a particular store. | | It's not only about which app gets installed. It's also who | is tracking what you own. If tomorrow EA decides that the | store should be gone, what happens to all the money you spent | on their store? Of course, a similar argument could be made | for Apple's own store, but they have more incentives to keep | that up. | | If purchased assets would be treated like phone numbers that | you can port to another carrier, then that would be great. | Steam supports that (obviously just to 'import' games, not to | 'export'). | ucm_edge wrote: | Just having that choice though includes a cost. When everyone | is forced onto the app store, Apple can censor as you point | out, it can demand high percentages on in app transactions, | and plenty of other negative things. But it can also demand | certain behavior standards, easily deplatform people who | abuse (in Apple's eyes) things like tracking (like when they | revoked Facebook's cert in 2019), etc. | | The minute you open up to multiple stores, much of that | control is gone or reduced. Or at least limited. After all | Apple also nuked Zoom's webserver off all OS X boxes in 2019 | so I'm sure they could kill things via iOS updates. | | As a more mundane issue, if now content is segregated across | N store fronts, that's now N passwords I need to track, N | potential places that my credit card can be stolen from, N | stores I need up install, log into, and download apps from | when I get a new iOS device, etc. I as a user do lose a lot | of quality of life tweaks the moment balkanization of store | fronts can occur. I as a consumer do feel I benefit from | Apple being able to tell app providers "We have about 40% of | the market on our devices and if you want to interact with | them, it's our way or the highway. So if you want to sell to | them, you will meet or exceed these standards, there are no | other options." | | Ideally this standard setting would be set by a neutral | entity like say a government and applied equally across all | personal devices, but US privacy regulations are a joke so | basically I'm stuck hoping that Apple continues to see value | in branding themselves as the more secure and private phone | (I'm suddenly nostalgic for Blackberry). | | You always have the recourse of buying an Android and side | loading if you want total freedom. | ekianjo wrote: | > You install those yourself you know. I'd rather have a | choice than not. | | yes and No. When some games are "exclusives" to a certain | store, if you want to play such games you end up having to | install every store in existence which is not very consumer | friendly. It would be better for stores to have every game | possible, just like at the time of good old physical retail. | It's not like there were Wallmart exclusive games, right? | | But to be fair, devs are almost as much to blame as store | owners for this situation. | afavour wrote: | > When some games are "exclusives" to a certain store, if | you want to play such games you end up having to install | every store in existence | | Then don't! You don't _need_ that game. If you and other | gamers want to make a stand against the crazy number of | stores just refuse to install them. Unless you do that the | store owners know your complaints aren 't going to amount | to a thing. | ekianjo wrote: | > Then don't! You don't need that game | | I think you fail to understand conflicting interests. | Devs and Publishers do everything to hype up game | releases, and Store Owners buy exclusivity to bring | people to their platforms. Even if I restrict my own | choice, my vote ultimately does not matter: these | perverse incentives are at play, and make life suck for | every end user involved. | rbtprograms wrote: | I highly doubt that devs are the ones who make the decision | to put everything behind the walled garden of an entirely | separate app store. Although I would agree that devs do | shoulder some of the blame for relying on electron and | other such technologies for building these things. | ekianjo wrote: | > who make the decision to put everything behind the | walled garden of an entirely separate app store | | Devs or Publishers, but devs can also self-publish when | they are indies anyway. Epic Store is famously buying | timed exclusives - we have seen ShenMue 3 for example | exclusive for one year on EGS depiste a kickstarter | campaign where they promised a release on Steam on Day 1. | Devs/Publishers were clearly to blame there: they decided | to ignore their supporters and go for the big bag of Epic | money instead. | meowkit wrote: | > It's not like there were Wallmart exclusive games, right? | | Either you're younger than me or you've forgotten about the | pre-order content exclusives from different stores. | | If physical retailers had the marketshare that online | distribution now has I'm sure they would have done | exclusive games. If you have smaller game devs and no cost | of disc manufacturing (ie download only) its easier to make | exclusivity deals. | ekianjo wrote: | > Either you're younger than me or you've forgotten about | the pre-order content exclusives from different stores. | | This has basically no bearing to the actual game access. | While now, buying in a certain store means a very limited | selection of titles, which is unlike anything ever | experienced in physical retail. So, bad analogy. | ricardobayes wrote: | Yes, makes my blood boil that Stadia is hogging the | rights to stream Rockstar games, but you can't import | them. So even though I have purchased them, I need to buy | them again. | DixieDev wrote: | I find the hassle of having multiple game launchers | installed to be pretty insignificant. In exchange, | developers have more freedom regarding where they're | willing to publish, and have the opportunity of exclusive | deals that bring in more money and could reasonably be put | back into the content of a game. | | Also, as players we occasionally get games at much lower | costs than normal (sometimes even free), which seems to be | a benefit we wouldn't get to the same extent if multiple | storefronts weren't competing. | Polycryptus wrote: | > It's not like there were Wallmart exclusive games, right? | | It doesn't matter too much, but there actually have been... | Nintendo's Chibi-Robo Park Patrol was a WalMart exclusive | game in the US. (in 2007) | colejohnson66 wrote: | A big problem with the comparison between big box stores | and app stores regarding exclusives is: I can go to | Walmart, buy my "Walmart Exclusive(tm)", and then not go | back. Chibi-Robo! doesn't require I play _in_ Walmart, | and, in fact, will run just fine on my DS everywhere. | OTOH, for an Epic exclusive, I can't buy (read: license) | the game and then never use the Epic launcher. Because | every time I want to play "Epic Exclusive(tm) #9001", I | need to have the Epic Store running. | mdoms wrote: | > I can hardly wait to use Amazon App Store to install Amazon | and then open up the Epic Game Store to install random game and | then open up EA Game Store to install random game and then open | up Facebook App Store to install Facebook and then open up the | Apple App Store to install the Blizzard App Store to install | Hearthstone and then go back to the Apple App Store and update | the Blizzard App Store so I can get the latest Hearthstone | updates. | | This is how life is as a PC gamer and it's.... actually good. | Who cares if you need to open multiple stores? That is the | smallest possible inconvenience, and in exchange we get an | insanely competitive marketplace where consumers are regularly | given free games and deep, deep discounts to lure them into | competing stores. | | Would you prefer every city had one car yard? Is it a major | hardship for you to have to go to different car yards for Fords | and Nissans? | blibble wrote: | most of them you can configure to exit after starting a game | too | parasubvert wrote: | Most iPhone users do not want to open multiple stores. We | like and want Apple's curation. | | This is why Epic's position is a very difficult anti-trust | argument: Apple is aligned with what many customers actually | want. | hajile wrote: | The creation of multiple stores doesn't mean you have to | use them... | | Just vote with your wallet and stick with that store. | Android has a half-dozen stores available, but how many | people are using stores outside of the official one? | dubcanada wrote: | What's a car yard? I assume based on the context a dealer? | | And yes I would love to go to a mall with all the different | cars available. Would make it easier to see all available | options and pick the best one for me (rather then pick the | best one from Ford for me). | jvzr wrote: | > This is how life is as a PC gamer and it's.... actually | good. Who cares if you need to open multiple stores? | | I do. I hate it with passion. Launchers have to be updated, | games have to be updated; they all have different UX, work | better or worse than the other. Let me have just Steam and | regulate Valve so that they don't abuse their position, and | I'll be fine thank you. | colinmhayes wrote: | Imagine hating something so trivial that provides real | tangible benefits so much. | katbyte wrote: | it's not trivial? its multiple accounts and multiple | things to install and juggle - not everyone has the | latest and greatest computer. Not to mention are you 100% | sure those stores and your purchases will continue to | exist longer than steam ect? | | regardless, I hate it too but i really don't care, | companies like EA and epic can do whatever they want and | i just don't install or play games not on steam or the | ps4 stores and move on with my life. | neogodless wrote: | > just Steam and regulate Valve | | Welcome to the world where you can only use government | approved software! | parasubvert wrote: | Worked for the telephone system for 75 years.... | matwood wrote: | > This is how life is as a PC gamer and it's.... actually | good. | | You just reminded me one of the many reasons I stopped PC | gaming and either casual game on mobile or use a console. | ArkanExplorer wrote: | If Apple charged a reasonable commission level - say 5-15% - | these problems would not occur. | | 30% is completely uneconomic and drives all of the profit to | the platform owner. That's why were seeing so many | acquisitions. | | The problem here is with the 30%. | valparaiso wrote: | How old are you? Have you ever asked yourself "why developers | went to the new and empty Apple App Store in 2008 in mature | market with Nokia and others"? | | The answer is very simple - commissions before Apple's 30% | were 50%-70%. That's why Jobs conducted that presentation | with slide regarding with 30% fee - it was unprecedent for | those times. | | Also there is also another question - how did you calculate | that 5-15% is reasonable? You need to have solid arguments to | defend your position. But no one provided - even Epic's | lawyers such data. Also most of apps in Apple's App Store are | free, so Apple is paying for the whole | development/maintenance of infrastructure (delta updates | etc.) | hajile wrote: | They went to the platform because the iPhone was rapidly | gaining popularity and they gained access to a captive | market. | | Economies of scale alone indicates that if they could do | the store at 30%, they could do it for far less when scaled | up. | | Finally, they are rather near brick-and-mortar markups for | a lot of things despite not having all the extra overhead. | readams wrote: | Apple could allow you to add additional sources inside the | existing store interface. We can already do this with apt and | yum on Linux for example. They won't do it though because they | want to increase friction to maximize their money. They don't | actually care about users. | arduinomancer wrote: | I don't get how you can be against having more options/freedom | with your device | QuixoticQuibit wrote: | Because I don't use my iPhone like I use my computer (as in | desktop experience). Many people like the simple, wall/garden | approach to iOS. | xenihn wrote: | I get that the fracturing of content delivery platforms had to | happen for the sake of ~profits~, but I miss the days when | having Netflix, Steam, and Spotify completely satisfied | consumption needs. At least Spotify still has nearly everything | I want, and still provides me with great recommendations. | withinboredom wrote: | I know of several apps in my local app store that have their own | payment system instead of the in-app purchases. I don't see why | Apple doesn't enforce this policy for all apps. | darknessmonk wrote: | > Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to | be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent | sideloading or other stores from competing. | | The walled garden is a selling point, a feature - I don't care | about sideloading at all. You want to sideload? Grab and Android. | mhh__ wrote: | Today you don't care. You might never do. | | Some people do at the moment, but that's not completely the | point. | | This legislation should be about tail risk - protecting the | people who increasingly only have an iPhone or iPad as their | main computer from either forced obsolescence or restrictions | on their behaviours. | zepto wrote: | Forcing people to use stores they don't want to is the exact | opposite of 'protection'. | [deleted] | [deleted] | pentae wrote: | How about don't tell me what device I can or can't use? I | _want_ to sideload on my iPhone. | zepto wrote: | Nobody is telling you what device you can use. | | Why would you buy a device that doesn't do what you want? | infinityplus1 wrote: | Why do people move to America when there is crime happening | there? Maybe there are good things in America as well. You | appreciate the good things and then try to fix the bad | things. | zepto wrote: | This is a false analogy. | | All countries have crime, and the switching cost is | immense. However some countries are much worse than | others which makes it worth it. | | Phones are at parity in terms of features, and the | switching cost is trivial. | mywittyname wrote: | If you don't care about sideloading? Don't sideload, just use | the Apple Store. | | Users like you have zero skin in the game. Nothing in your | workflow will change, other than you might get cheaper | applications. | darknessmonk wrote: | Nope. Hurts overall experience. Not only the App's won't be | curated the same as the other ones, but now I would have to | maybe reach to some webside to download a .ipa file or to | download a secondary App store to get a apps that otherwise | would be available on App Store. | chungus_khan wrote: | Then keep using the curated store? It only hurts if Apple's | store can't compete with alternative ones. There's no such | problem on Android because developers and users are fine | with the Play Store. | | Epic even tried doing a sideloaded Fortnite for Android and | people didn't download it, so they came back. | zepto wrote: | This keeps getting repeated but is false. | | New stores will pay for exclusives rights to popular apps | just as video streaming platforms do for video. | | Users will have no choice but to use a jumble of | different stores. | chungus_khan wrote: | Then why hasn't it happened? Android has always had | sideloading and this is not the case. Just asserting it | to be false isn't convincing. | zepto wrote: | Why doesn't Epic have an Android App Store? | | If they want an independent store, there is no reason for | them not to create one for Android. | | If Android was a model for what Epic wants, they would | have built a store there. | | It's pretty obvious that this is just about them going | where the money is. | chungus_khan wrote: | As I said, they tried and failed because nobody | downloaded it. I'm not sure why you're suddenly bringing | Epic's motives into a comment chain about the | desirability of sideloading though? Epic is obviously | looking to skirt store fees and doesn't actually prefer | to run their own store, but that has nothing to do with | anything above in the chain. | zepto wrote: | The post is about Epic. | | Do you think anyone would install alternative stores on | iOS? | | If so, Android is obviously an irrelevant comparison. | | Epic clearly believes iOS is different from Android. | chungus_khan wrote: | I don't think most people would. I think most sideloading | would be by users making things that fall outside of what | Apple allows on their store, like on Android. I see no | coherent reason at all why things would be any different | on iOS, and nobody has presented one here beyond just | asserting the premise that it would be different, and I | don't think "Epic believes it is" is a convincing | argument. | zepto wrote: | > I don't think most people would. | | Why wouldn't Facebook just integrate a store into their | App? | | Why wouldn't Google advertise their store in the search | engine just as they did with Chrome? Why wouldn't their | store ship with an Android runtime? | | Epic doesn't just believe it would be different. They are | prepared to invest _millions of dollars._ | | All there of these are obvious and coherent reasons why | it would be different. | chungus_khan wrote: | These are not coherent reasons why it would be different, | they are assertions that you think it would be. None of | them even speak to any difference between the platforms. | | Just saying that it will be isn't a reason. None of this | has happened. Every attempt at doing this has failed | horribly. Most users are not technically capable enough | to even go about installing an alternative store. | | Why, given that this has not happened in the case of the | leading mobile platform, and in fact all attempts to even | mildly break with the play store have been resounding | failures, would iOS be any different? | zepto wrote: | Obviously _you must not be aware_ that _Android is not | the leading platform in terms of app sales_. | | You say: | | > Most users are not technically capable enough to even | go about installing an alternative store. | | This is obviously false. We know for sure that average | users can install apps. | | A store is just an app. Why would installing an alternate | store be harder than installing any other app? | | Why wouldn't Facebook just integrate their store into | their app? | dieortin wrote: | Until you're forced to download the FB App Store for Facebook | apps, the Epic Games store for theirs, the Google App Store | for Google applications... | | It's not true users who don't want to side load have zero | skin in the game. The entire ecosystem would suffer. | chungus_khan wrote: | Why hasn't it on Android then? | bezout wrote: | Maybe the majority of users doesn't care and uses the | Play Store. They probably don't know about F-droid and | co. | doublejay1999 wrote: | Epic know they can't win this using the Law. Apple will argue | they built a market of nBillion customers, which anyone can | access for a fee. | | What Epic hope to do, is win commercial support and build | pressure on apple to lower their fees. Might work too. | mullingitover wrote: | It already worked, Apple lowered fees for smaller | developers.[1] | | [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-app-store/apple- | low... | gscott wrote: | Apple tried to wear Samsung down by suing them in different | jurisdictions at the same time. Might work for Epic. | flenserboy wrote: | I can't shake the feeling that Epic is a puppet, being used as a | wedge to hash security on iOS devices. As much as it would be | nice to have more control over one's iPhone, the horror of the | Android marketplace is enough to give a body more than a little | pause. | chungus_khan wrote: | The contents of the Play Store have nothing to do with | Android's ability to sideload. | zepto wrote: | Look into who owns Epic . | enragedcacti wrote: | Tim Sweeney is the controlling shareholder of Epic. If Tim | Sweeney decides to do something there is literally nothing | TenCent could do to stop him outside of a lawsuit. | zepto wrote: | > there is literally nothing TenCent could do to stop him | outside of a lawsuit | | Obviously false. TenCent controls Epic's access to the | Chinese market, which _is much larger than the iOS market | has ever been for Epic._ | enragedcacti wrote: | I'm not saying they have no influence, I just have a | problem with you _insinuating_ falsehoods with a | statement like "Look into who owns Epic" as if you've | just dropped the truth bomb exposing evil China as the | mastermind behind two corporations fighting for who gets | to make more money. | zepto wrote: | I'm not insinuating a falsehood. | | TenCent owns 40% of Epic's stock, has a seat in the | board, and controls access to much more of epic's revenue | than Apple does. | | TenCent can absolutely dictate a policy in relation to | Apple to Epic if they so choose. | | China absolutely has interests in seeing a less powerful | Apple, for numerous reasons. | fhood wrote: | Apple does not actually have a monopoly, Android exists, has more | market share, more options and features, and a better ecosystem | of compatible smart devices. | | If Apple is forced to allow third party app marketplaces it is | clear what will happen. Every major player will make their own | marketplace and force you to use it to access their software and | whatever other software they have paid to make exclusive. Epic is | one of the absolute worst offenders for this sort of behavior. So | to everyone claiming "you will still be able to use the curated | app store", I guess that's true but only technically. | | IOS will not be a better place should Apple be forced to go | through with this. This is not being an "Apple apologist". I | think we all agree that Apple will happily exploit the people | forced to offer services through their platform. But if they are | forced to take their hands off the wheel they will lose the power | that allowed them to push through some fairly groundbreaking | privacy protections, including sign-in with Apple, which I | personally deeply appreciate. | Qahlel wrote: | > Apple does not actually have a monopoly | | This is like saying water is not an essential liquid, there is | coca cola and pepsi. | darkwizard42 wrote: | Apple products are not at the level of necessity as water... | | A smartphone might be (big stretch)... of which there are | plenty of choices. | | This is like saying Dasani (Apple) is the absolutely ONLY | water brand out there, when you can get Aquafina (Android) | and get nearly the same product. Yes, Dasani is only bottled | at certain places (exclusive features like iMessage, | FaceTime), but Aquafina has minerality (rooting your phone, | deep integration with Google services) as well that make it | unique. | toiletfuneral wrote: | I don't understand this analogy at all, can you explain? | buzzerbetrayed wrote: | So you're saying that somehow Google uses Apple as it's main | ingredient for Android.. or something? | | More likely, I think you thought the comparison sounded | catchy, despite the fact that it has nothing to do with the | situation. | a254613e wrote: | >Every major player will make their own marketplace and force | you to use it to access their software | | A lot of comments keep saying this. So why haven't they done it | on android? If they wanted to have huge amounts of users use | their stores, wouldn't android give them even more of that than | iOS? | | Why are there all these doomsday scenarios being touted in this | thread when what epic is asking already exists on another | (larger) platforms, and none of the things that you and others | mention happened? | m_eiman wrote: | I already have a taste of this on my gaming computer: GOG | Galaxy, Steam, Epic Store, EA Store, ... All of them wanting to | auto-start and waste resources in the background. It's just a | waste and a hassle. | | And every one of them manages to lose my logged in state and | force me to log in again every time I start them, apparently | that "Keep me logged in" checkbox is just for show. | | Do I sound bitter? It's because I am. | josefx wrote: | Turing of auto start tends to be an option and steam at least | forgets my login so rarely that I have problems remembering | my password. | | You might want to torch your computer with thermite before | whatever it has can escape into the wild. | arendtio wrote: | A bit OT, but I still fail to grasp why Apple is allowed to | restrict all browsers on iOS to the Safari rendering engine. | Microsoft had to pay big because they didn't asked their users | properly for alternative browsers, yet Apple doesn't even give | other browsers a fair chance to compete on iOS. | | Consumers suffer because Apple controls about 50% of the mobile | market and if Apple decides a certain feature will not be | available in Safari (e.g. Push API), no other browser vendor can | even offer a solution. | | Sounds to me like totally abusing their market position to uphold | their anti-competitive behavior. | rgbrenner wrote: | 50% in the US market (27% globally) is very far from the 98% | global marketshare that Windows had in 2000. MacOS had the | other 2% (thanks to being propped up by MS 2 years earlier). | That was the entire competitive landscape. Linux existed, but | if you used it back then (I did), it was difficult to get a | desktop going, and virtually no one used it on the desktop. | | And while the DOJ might only care about the US market... the | fact that Microsoft's domination extended worldwide means not | only were there no US competitors, but there weren't foreign | competitors to challenge them either. | | The fact that Android--with 50% US and 72% global marketshare-- | is so competitive with Apple makes it clear these two | situations are not equivalent. Apple is more | abusive/controlling in some ways, but they dont have the market | power that Microsoft had. | pojntfx wrote: | Absolutely. There should be an EU regulation forcing companies | to 1) allow sideloading apps, without any certificate | restrictions for things like feature approval (such as having | to ask Apple nicely to be able to create a VPN) and 2) allow | the user to run any code they want to on their device, | including any browser engine. With the EU becoming basically an | American software colony since COVID (Zoom, O365) it is about | time for a "GDPR of software freedom". | acomjean wrote: | Its not that off topic. | | The web is a platform. But Apple controls the browser like it | controls the web store so it can selectively exclude | functionality that pushes people to use its monopoly app store. | aboringusername wrote: | It feels a bit hypocritical when Apple laughs at FB for | complaining about their new tracking pop-up yet when the shoe's | on the other foot and Apple may actually have to compete on its | own platform they double down and defend their right to be judge, | jury and executioner. | | Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be | amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent | sideloading or other stores from competing. | | This isn't the case on Windows. This isn't the case on Android. | | Or Linux for that matter. | | It's more disappointing it takes 10 years for regulators to step- | in and say "that's bad, no more, open up your platform". | pier25 wrote: | > Or Linux for that matter. | | Or even macOS. | null_object wrote: | You can load apps on macOS from anywhere you like. | pier25 wrote: | Yes, that's what I'm saying. | mhh__ wrote: | Aren't apple increasing not liking you doing that? e.g. | MacOS phoning home to Apple on program startup. | | I doubt Apple would ever truly stop you but there is a | subtle level of friction that can't necessarily be assumed | of the user. | zepto wrote: | > Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going | to be amazing. | | No - it's not going to add anything at all for users except | being forced to deal with a bunch of shady app stores, some of | which will be deeply hostile to privacy. | | Developers will also be forced to support multiple stores and | sets of rules. Dealing with this will eliminate any possible | cost advantage. | | Everyone loses _except for the new group of middlemen who get | to take a cut_. | | > This isn't the case on Windows. This isn't the case on | Android. Or Linux for that matter. | | It sounds like you are saying there is plenty of choice for | people who don't want a walled garden. | | > It's more disappointing it takes 10 years for regulators to | step-in and say "that's bad, no more, open up your platform". | | It sounds like you are saying this should never have been | allowed, despite there being _no legal reason against it_. | rvba wrote: | > No - it's not going to add anything at all for users except | being forced to deal with a bunch of shady app stores, some | of which will be deeply hostile to privacy. | | It means lower prices for those who are smart enough to use | the cheaper store and those who cannot will stay on the | official store that takes its 30% cut. | | In fact even the bare existence of other stores would mean | that the cut probably goes down, since Apple probably will | prefer to stop the outflow of users. | | If someone is inept to use other store than the official | apple store, then I guess they have to pay the higher price. | Your post sounds comical on a forum called "hacker news". You | sound as if using a second app store is some secret | knowledge... | | You also seem to ignore the fact that even computer inept | people try to reduce the amount of money they pay for stuff | and money is a big incentive (app costs 1 dollar less on | other store is a great motivator to learn how to use it). | zepto wrote: | > It means lower prices for those who are smart enough to | use the cheaper store | | This is guaranteed false. | | Unless the 'cheaper store' has almost all of the customers, | you will need to support most of the stores, otherwise | you'll simply lose access to customers. | | Just to break even, developers will be _forced_ to support | multiple stores. | | If consumers want a cheaper option, there is nothing | stopping them from buying a cheap android phone today. | stale2002 wrote: | But it would be easier for a customer to get cheaper | prices, for the games that voluntarily choose to be on | other apps stores. | | That is one extra option for the consumer to choose, if | they want it. | zepto wrote: | > the games that voluntarily choose to be on other apps | stores. | | It wouldn't be voluntary. They would be forced to support | the other stores or lose revenue. | | Claiming it's just a matter of choice for developers is | simply not correct. | | The extra options would also come at a cost for consumers | who would need to deal with multiple stores, many of them | with undesirable features such as weaker privacy | protections. | rvba wrote: | Ah poor companies. They would have to care about | consumers. | | People like you could still overpay in the official | store. | rvba wrote: | Id speculate that there is a group of people who buy | iPhone as a fashion statement and then probably dont have | money for apps. | justapassenger wrote: | Apple isn't users friend, or defender of the people. | | It's biggest company in the word, that tries to make most | amount of money by monopolizing markets. And privacy sells | nowadays, so they exploit that to grow even more. Of course | users get something in return, but that's not the reason why do | that. | | It's one of the greatest PR campaigns of modern world, to have | people believe that biggest company in the world cares about | them and has their backs and interests. It's almost Orwellian. | jaegerpicker wrote: | This is a pointless statement, does Epic have consumers back? | LOL hardly. This lawsuit is about Epic cashing in on Apple's | work. No one believes Apple the corp is the defender of the | people. Apple is great on privacy compared to all the other | options, not because they are good people (they may not be or | they may be who knows?) but because it's in their best | interest to be. This is about two corp's fighting over their | right tomato more money off of you and I. People are casting | Epic as for the consumer and it's ridiculous! | throw_away892 wrote: | How you don't see Epic's move as a win for Apple users is | ironic given how pro-consumer you seem to perceive Apple to | be. | jaegerpicker wrote: | Epic's move has 0 to do with consumer's. It's only about | Epic benefiting from Apple's platform. | throw_away892 wrote: | Epic's move (if it succeeds) would have a direct positive | effect on the consumer. Across the board. It's not a | gamer issue anymore. It is now bigger than them. | jaegerpicker wrote: | I keep seeing people say this but where is the evidence | this is true? Because from my POV this isn't the case AT | ALL. Pc gaming and Android both are "open" platforms and | both are far worse for consumers that the App Store. This | is another case of "common" knowledge that doesn't seem | to be supported by evidence. | colinmhayes wrote: | It doesn't matter what Epic's intentions are. Allowing | creation of 3rd party stores is great and consumers and | developers. I'll continue to support the organization whose | incentives are aligned with mine. | yladiz wrote: | I get why it's great for developers, but why for | consumers? You'll almost have a situation exactly like | the one that exists on Windows for gaming, where you have | to install any number of stores to get the games that | _only_ exist in those stores. You may think that it will | give you or other consumers more choice, but it's a | choice only for developers and it's at the expense of | consumers. | kosievdmerwe wrote: | Well, as a consumer, if I could install Kindle through a | third party app store, I'd be able to buy books directly | in the app rather than having to go through a dance to | get to a browser to buy a book. | | This is because Apple would charge Amazon 15/30% to clear | the transaction while Apple Books can be both more | convenient and doesn't have to give up a large chunk of | change to someone else. | jaegerpicker wrote: | Exactly, I'm a developer (mobile apps and games hopefully | - if I can ever actually finish it) and I get why I might | want multiple options but as a consumer? The REASON I | choice Apple is the superior App Store. No where else can | I find the average quality of software that is on the App | Store, the freedom form viruses, and general quality of | app. | dragonwriter wrote: | > does Epic have consumers back? | | Of course not. | | In principal, in a capitalist society, no firm is on the | consumers side--all are trying to extract maximum value | from the consumer and give back as little as possible in | return. But, ideally, this is constrained by robust | competition between firms. | | To the extent Apple exercises a practical monopoly, Epic | fighting against their ability to leverage that monopoly to | dictate terms is fighting _in the interest of consumers_ | even if it does not come from a pro-consumer motivation, | because it means that competition which benefits consumers | will continue for other services dependent on the space | monopolized by Apple. | parasubvert wrote: | This completely misses the point of capitalism and | successful business. | | The whole purpose of a business is to create (and keep) a | customer. The two ways it does that are innovation and | marketing. Yes, there can be cases where customers are | cheated, but they won't be customers for long. | | It's not about "extracting maximum value and giving as | little back in return". That's an extremely simplistic | argument that bares no relationship to how companies are | actually managed, or how products/services are designed | and built. | | Yes, in a business, there must be profit, as it covers | today's risks and tomorrow's costs. "Profit maximization" | is nonsense, it's like saying a sports team does "scoring | maximization". | | Finally, what is a 'practical monopoly', besides "it's | not actually a monopoly but I want a cut of it and | therefore I feel it is"? This seems to be the argument | Epic is making. | dragonwriter wrote: | > The whole purpose of a business is to create (and keep) | a customer | | No, the whole point of a capitalist business is to | produce returns for the business's owners. | | Acquiring and retaining customers is valuable insofar as | there is more value to be profitably extracted from the | customer; it is instrumental, not an independent goal. | | > The two ways it does that are innovation and marketing. | | Well, no, monopolization is itself neither innovation nor | marketing (though either or both may be involved in | getting to the position where it is possible), but it is | definitely a way or acquire and retain customers. | | > Yes, there can be cases where customers are cheated, | but they won't be customers for long. | | That depends what you mean by cheated. If you mean losing | net utility through trade, that's true in a simplistic | rational-choice analysis, but given the known deviations | from rationality in real-world decisionmaking, not always | in practice. If you mean "receive less net value than | they would in a competitive marketplace through monopoly | rents, but still net positive value", then it's not even | true from a simplistic rational-choice analysis. | | > It's not about "extracting maximum value and giving as | little back in return". | | Yes, it absolutely is. | | > That's an extremely simplistic argument that bares no | relationship to how companies are actually managed, or | how products/services are designed and built. | | It really isn't. The entire concept of establishing a | "moat" is a euphemism for (legal) monopolization so as to | enable extraction of monopoly rents, and avoid the | reduction of price to marginal cost economics says is the | fate of freely competitive markets. | | Extracting maximum value at minimum cost (maximizing | return on investment) is what business is about. | Everything else is about techniques to achieve that goal. | | You've apparently been distracted by the techniques to | acheive the goal and missed the actual goal. | | > "Profit maximization" is nonsense, it's like saying a | sports team does "scoring maximization". | | Sports teams usually strategically aim for _win_ | maximization, which isn 't the same thing as _score_ | maximization, but, no, the error that exists with | describing sports team as doing score maximization | instead does not exist when describing business as being | about profit maximization. | | > Finally, what is a 'practical monopoly' | | One whose existence is evidenced empirically through | behavior in 5he market and absence of competitive | substitution rather than by arbitrary, non-empirically | grounded description of market categories. | parasubvert wrote: | > No, the whole point of a capitalist business is to | produce returns for the business's owners. Acquiring and | retaining customers is valuable insofar as there is more | value to be profitably extracted from the customer; it is | instrumental, not an independent goal. | | This is completely wrong. You can't have returns without | customers. | | > Extracting maximum value at minimum cost (maximizing | return on investment) is what business is about. | Everything else is about techniques to achieve that goal. | You've apparently been distracted by the techniques to | acheive the goal and missed the actual goal. | | Creating customers is not a "technique". It is the | essential act. You can have a business that's not | profitable. You can have a business that doesn't attract | much investment. You can have a business that doesn't | maximize profit. | | But you can't have a business if you have no customers. | | You're so distracted by profit and investment that you've | convinced yourself it's possible to have a successful or | profitable business with no customers. | | > "practical monopoly" is One whose existence is | evidenced empirically through behavior in 5he market and | absence of competitive substitution rather than by | arbitrary, non-empirically grounded description of market | categories. | | In other words, "I know it when I see it". | jaegerpicker wrote: | Why is that in consumer's interest? This isn't Windows | and IE, there are choices available to every consumer. If | you compare Android's eco-system vs Apple's, it's clear | that Apple is better for consumer's to me. Better quality | apps, far less piracy, far less viruses, and safer better | payment options. If iOS was the only game in town, I'd | 100 percent agree but it's not. There is very little | proof that proof that it's going to make the situation | better for consumers and quite a bit of evidence that it | will make it worse for users that prefer iOS. | justapassenger wrote: | Epic of course doesn't have customers back - it's most | likely more scummy than Apple. | | Only thing that markets discovered so far, that has somehow | customers back is free market and competition (and it's far | from being perfect of course), and they happen to push for | it. | | It's just a case where customer interested happened to be | aligned, even tho companies fight it for profit reasons (as | with privacy and Apple - good for customers, but not being | done because of it). | jaegerpicker wrote: | I totally understand that but from my POV, I don't see | Apple losing the App Store's position as a positive for | consumers. Let's compare Android's eco-system to iOS's. | Android's app ecosystem is terrible IMO, piracy - viruses | - cloned apps - and general very low quality apps. I'm a | mobile developer (both iOS and Android) and I use both in | my daily live. I know some people prefer Android but MANY | don't. To me it's VERY far from obvious that Apple's | walled garden is worse for consumers. In fact I'd say | that Apple's App Store is the best example of a platform | eco-system we have had in the history of computing. I | could see the argument if iOS was the only real choice | but it's not even the most popular by sheer numbers. | justapassenger wrote: | If Apple would open up to other apps stores I'd most | likely stay with theirs, because I also like value they | provide. | | But that doesn't mean I agree with them not allowing | other people to make a choice. For me 30% for purchases | and having heavily curated store is ok, but others it's | not, and they should be allowed to choose. | | If Apple store is truly superior, they won't have | problems staying ahead of competition. | jaegerpicker wrote: | They do have a choice, use Android if they don't like it. | All the major apps are available on Android. Good | hardware is available. There is nothing besides time and | money to stop them. I don't understand how anyone can ask | for choice when it already exists. | kergonath wrote: | Nothing is either purely good or purely evil, can we go | beyond school yard arguments? | | The fact is as a consumer my interests (essentially privacy | and safety) are better aligned with Apple's than with Google, | Facebook, or Epic. Their transactions with _me_ is how they | get their money, and they have strong incentives to keep that | relationship. This is not the case with Google or Facebook, | because their bottom line does not depend on me being happy | with them in any way. Similarly, Epic has no incentive to be | nice to me because I'm not the one funding them. | Shivetya wrote: | The open your platform line looks so good but we just went | through a number of stories about how people are being suckered | into high cost apps only after initial download and such. | | so if platforms are going to be forced open, we should go after | game consoles too, then there needs to be some means to protect | consumers from predatory apps because we are just opening the | door to that and more. | | finally, it also means that apps you don't like will now be | easily available so best be good with that and not asking | government to judge every app. | | finally this means apps can do what they will unless we are | willing to let platforms still restrict how they use your | data.. which to be honest blocking 3rd party apps is at times | beneficial | | as in, you can have it all but everyone gets to as well. | | So what will you give up for the freedom? Do you want the | platform owner to still police for privacy issues? I don't see | how it can be done if they cannot control access. | | Frankly let all apps stores be forced open and it will be fun | to watch how fast many demand them locked up or heavily | regulated or worse | dd36 wrote: | Why does there need to be multiple app stores? That sounds | terrible. Apple just needs to stop demanding huge chunks from | app revenue. | ksec wrote: | There are multiple argument in this case and it seems | everyone are mixing things up. Like Multiple App Store, and | 30% cut are different issues. There are people who simply | want to access to iPhone without going through Apple. Which | is currently the Jury, Judge and executioner. Cutting the 30% | you would still have to go through Apple. | Humdeee wrote: | Apple recently introduced the App Store Small Business | Program, slashing their app revenue taken by 50% to | accommodate the 'small players' (<1 million annual revenue). | kevingadd wrote: | The terms of that program are particularly nasty, though. | You can't really rely on it unless your revenue is going to | be way below a million, because it locks in for the | following year. If you have a spike in revenue (hooray, | good year!) your cut is suddenly 30% in the next financial | year even if your revenue drops way below a million. | | They didn't have to do it this way, which really makes me | wonder what their intent was. They could have gone with a | simple system like 'we look at how much you made this year, | and everything over 1 million is taxed at 30%', but instead | we got a weird complex system. | munificent wrote: | Hypocrisy doesn't really exist at the corporate or political | level today. Imagine you're playing chess with a friend. Would | you call it "hypocritical" if they took you queen but didn't | want to let you take theirs? Is it "lying" if you try to appear | to be making an attack when really it's a feint? No, it's | simply playing the game according to its rules against an enemy | adversary. | | Of course, that behavior makes sense in chess because the | entire point of a game is to be an artificial world where only | the letter of the rules are what matters and the only tangible | outcome is winning or losing. | | In the real world of business and politics, things like human | decency and fairness should come into play. But increasingly, | at least in American politics and corporations, the game is | played only according to the letter of the law. Anything they | can get away with, they will. | alexashka wrote: | > It feels a bit hypocritical when... | | You are treating corporate entities as if they are people with | emotions. | | This is a mistake. | | They are not people. They are legal entities, created to enable | their owners and beneficiaries to have special rights regular | citizens do not have, such as killing people and never going to | prison (Boeing). | toyg wrote: | _> It 's more disappointing it takes 10 years for regulators to | step-in_ | | To be fair, until it was limited to a small section of the | population, it wasn't a big deal. So rich people want to live | in walled gardens, so what? But when you start talking about | 20% or 30% of the whole population, then it's a significant | problem. It took a bit for Apple to reach that level but they | are definitely there now, and since they don't seem to be | willing to change, they have to be forced to accept that it has | to happen. | visarga wrote: | Big corporations should be treated more like infrastructure | and free markets than private companies. The more impact they | have on society the bigger the opportunity to externalize | costs and privatize profits. | | They can strangle creativity and keep us prisoners in their | walled gardens for decades, subjecting us to high prices and | tarrifs, lack of choice, missed technological opportunities, | biased filtering and ranking, whimsical deplatforming of | users and blocking of apps, stifling the development of | competing and innovative businesses, or buying them outright | to keep the risk away. | the_duke wrote: | > This isn't the case on Android. | | I'd argue that it is till the case on Android. | | Yes, alternate stores are possible, but they are severely | handicapped. First, manual APK install has to be enabled in | obscure settings that come with a "scary" warning. Then they | can't provide auto-updates but require a manual confirmation | for each version update. | | Epic gave up on running their own store on Android due to the | difficulties. | | I do think that regulators need to force Apples hand - not | being in control of your own device is not acceptable. | | But even then most business would remain on the official | stores. We also need legislation to curb the excessive fees | charged by both Google and Apple. | | A few years ago the EU limited credit card transaction fees to | 0.3% or a fixed maximum, whichever is lower. | | A similar cap is needed for app stores. | mfontani wrote: | IIRC the (proposed? is it in place yet?) EU cap is 0.2% for | debit cards and 0.3% for credit cards. | the_duke wrote: | I checked and you are right, it's 0.3% for CC, 0.2 for | debit. | | But yes, the regulation came into effect partially in 2015 | and fully in 2016. | | https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal- | content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:... | | It's quite noticeable: all the CC related reward programs | have disappeared. | ecf wrote: | > not being in control of your own device is not acceptable. | | I'm not trying to be snarky here but...don't buy it? | bsaul wrote: | We're unfortunalely way past the point where this is an | option. Neither Android nor Apple leaves you with nothing | truely usable at the moment, unless you're ready to live in | the year 2000 again. | throw_away892 wrote: | > First, manual APK install has to be enabled in obscure | settings that come with a "scary" warning. | | Don't see how this is necessarily a bad thing. It's a general | security notification. | | > Then they can't provide auto-updates but require a manual | confirmation for each version update. | | Again, how is this a deterrent? How many times a day do you | have to accept the new changes? | | We've already established that the official store will always | be designed to provide the best experience ootb compared to | the 'installed' one. | | This is true for all the other platforms where you need | manual intervention to install/maintain apps "unofficially". | | > Epic gave up on running their own store on Android due to | the difficulties. | | This is a hard stretch | | > I do think that regulators need to force Apples hand - not | being in control of your own device is not acceptable. | | ?? You'd be a fool to think Apple would give an equal footing | to other competing stores in their own garden | | > But even then most business would remain on the official | stores. | | Simple. Open it up and let the market decide this one out. | | > We also need legislation to curb the excessive fees charged | by both Google and Apple. | | On this one I agree. Though it's a different for Apple which | does not allow any other payment solutions other than | themselves, unlike Google's store. This is not an apples to | apples comparison. | | The Apple store monopoly should be broken up. It's time. | minhazm wrote: | Arguably the market has already decided the behavior they | want by buying iPhones in the first place. Apple didn't | suddenly change their behavior. This is how the app store | has always behaved. Everyone had that information available | to them prior to making the purchase. How can you be sure | that Apple customers don't actually want a walled garden | with a single app store that is tightly controlled by | Apple? After all if they didn't want this they could have | purchased one of the numerous other Android offerings. | hctaw wrote: | I don't think fees are as large a problem as competing | against first party apps in the same marketplace that don't | pay the fees or have the same restrictions. iMessage for | example doesn't require granular permissions for photo access | like Messenger does, Apple Music doesn't have an additional | 30% overhead as Spotify, etc. | | If you run a store your apps should play by the same rules as | the apps you compete against. | jayd16 wrote: | >Then they can't provide auto-updates but require a manual | confirmation for each version update. | | Is this true? Did they change the install permission to one | time use or something? | Fwirt wrote: | There are two different layers: The app has to have OS | permission to install APKs, and then the app has to have | user permission to install each individual APK. Android | will prompt you each time. The only apps exempt from this | are "system" apps (baked into the root-only partition) | which are allowed to install/upgrade software without | asking the user. It makes sense from an anti-malware | perspective, but then again most malware finds ways around | this anyway so you could argue that it serves no purpose | and is only user hostile. | zpeti wrote: | One of the absolutely obvious hypocritical things for me is | that they don't allow anyone to say in their app that "Apple | gets 30% of this fee" | | That's the equivalent of the IDFA message for Facebook. Which | everyone will see, its worded in a very negative way, and it's | a must. | newbie578 wrote: | Good point. Would love to hear the Apple fanatics on HN | defend this. So much for respecting privacy... | asimpletune wrote: | I don't know if this is a defense per se, but the reason | they do this is to prevent app makers from using that to | try and steer customers to out of band ways of subscribing. | | I guess the analogy would be if a brand forbade a retailers | from revealing their margins, so customers don't go to | secondary markets and potentially/almost-certainly have a | worse experience. Like counterfeit products or just in | general to be subjected to dark patterns. | | As far as my personal opinion regarding this I am | completely fine with it. I think they've created something | remarkable in the sense that everyday people are starting | to pay for software, because they've created a valuable | ecosystem. Sometimes I think we forget that in the past | everyday people wouldn't really pay for digital products in | the same way they'd pay for physical ones. The one thing | I'd say though is that maybe the 30% is high, but given | they have the small business program that argument is | mostly gone. | | Any way now I'm rambling but that's my best attempt to | honestly explain why they do that. | tommilukkarinen wrote: | 30% is not just for apps but all digital content like | Spotify. Now if we see a future where Apple wins and | dominates: everyone creating digital content for a living | will pay a 30% tax to Apple. Forever including your | grandchildren. Now lets take it a step further and think | a world where all services like cleaning are bought with | Apple products. Everyone will pay a 30% tax to Apple, | forever. The thing is, that we cant allow an exception, | as we would be allowing the rest of it. Then there's the | other side that they make the rules. So for an example if | an apple employee makes a mistake and bans your business | from the store, you have no way to appeal. Unless you are | big enough like Epic. If Apple wins in court and then in | markets, we truly have Orwellian reality. | dleslie wrote: | On the one hand, Apple is acting as a store curator and | demanding that its customers be made aware of tracking | software. | | On the other hand, Apple is acting as a platform owner and | demanding that they continue to act as the sole store curator | on their platform. | | I do not see the hypocrisy. | fbelzile wrote: | I agree that there's no hypocrisy, but I think Apple is | acting consistently as a platform owner in both cases. Yes, | iOS users should being made aware of tracking software but it | doesn't mean that they should continue being the sole store | curator for their platform. | | We know from past experience that it's commercially viable | for platform owners to successfully develop secure operating | systems that allow third party developers to develop and | distribute apps without an additional tax. We don't have to | look very far either. macOS is a great example of where the | App Store and third party developers can coexist. | | People should be able to choose to buy the app (for 30% more) | using the App Store so that it's easy to ask for a refund, | receive updates and for Apple to market apps they believe | you'd like to use. But at the same time, Apple has no right | to _force_ people to overpay for services like Spotify on the | App Store. Customers already pay to use a licensed copy of | iOS on supported hardware. | | Governments have every right to protect the customer from | perpetually getting screwed by Apple. At the very least, we | shouldn't allow Apple to limit free speech so that developers | can't mention a way for their users to save money. | EveYoung wrote: | But users already can by an Android or Linux phone instead. | It's not like Apple has the monopoly on smartphones. | fbelzile wrote: | You're missing the point. Nobody is arguing that Apple | has a monopoly on the smartphone market. | | The problem is that Apple built an artificial monopoly in | the _distribution_ of apps by making the App Store the | only curator of the platform. People who decided to | purchase an iPhone with an iOS license should have the | right to use the device to it 's full extent (along with | being able to fix it themselves if something breaks). If | you don't feel safe running apps outside of the App | Store, you don't need to! | valparaiso wrote: | > The problem is that Apple built an artificial monopoly | in the distribution of apps by making the App Store the | only curator of the platform. | | You need to watch Epic Games vs. Apple hearing from | September 2020. This argument was already rejected by | judge. She stated closed platforms (walled gardens) were | before Apple's fore decades and are legal types of | business. She also told about Nintendo/PlayStation/Xbox | same closed stores. | Dracophoenix wrote: | That's like saying Nintendo has an artificial monopoly by | allowing only allowing Nintendo approved games to be | distributed for sales on their consoles. Or TV channels | have an artificial monopoly for shows they buy the | syndication/distribution rights for. At some point, | someone decided to commit to a certain path. Calling the | choice "anti-competitive" cheapens the word. | | >>People who decided to purchase an iPhone with an iOS | license should have the right to use the device to it's | full extent | | The US Copyright Office has already made it clear that | jailbreaking is legal. That does not imply upon Apple an | affirmative obligation to fix a jailbroken phone or | create a open/fixable hardware and software platform, or | make either of the two easy to accomplish. Only a | negative obligation to not interfere with those who take | such risks at their own expense. | fbelzile wrote: | You're right that I'd classify those as artificial | monopolies. Wouldn't you agree that the world would be a | better place if we had less of them? | | Especially for general computing devices like a phone, | unlike gaming consoles and media examples. We already | know that Apple doesn't _need_ the App Store for iDevices | to be a commercial success, just look at the Mac and | macOS. | ApolloFortyNine wrote: | How you can argue for less software freedoms, while paying a | 30% tax for any app you distribute, is honestly mind boggling | to me. | | >On the one hand, Apple is acting as a store curator and | demanding that its customers be made aware of tracking | software. | | This sounds like marketing. Apple is limiting what apps their | customers have access to. I wonder if you would make the same | argument if Apple starts blocking websites? | cmdli wrote: | As a user, I'm free to buy Android if I want to. I buy | iPhones specifically _because_ software developers are | forced to go through Apple 's more strict guidelines (see | the Apple/Facebook fight for a recent example of why I | personally like it). I can trust the software I use much | more on Apple's platform. | | I want to have the freedom to buy and use such a platform, | and Apple wants the freedom to sell and maintain such a | platform. The entire process falls apart if Apple is forced | to allow other App Stores. Why should the court restrict | those freedoms and break this consumer benefit? | [deleted] | nickysielicki wrote: | It's not about the outcome, it's about reasoning from first | principles and going where ever that leads you, regardless | of how much you dislike the outcome. Nobody has to buy an | iPhone, iPad, or MacBook. Apple has the right to create the | software ecosystem they want to create. Their success in | mobile computing is arguably a direct result of their | closed ecosystem. | ClumsyPilot wrote: | "it's about reasoning from first principles and going | where ever that leads you, regardless of how much you | dislike the outcome" | | This sounds an awfull lot like the though process of | religious zealots and extremists. Ignore the real world, | consequences be damned, ideology comes first. There is no | way we could make an error of judgement. Thats how you | get a famine and 50 million dead in China. | | "Apple has the right to create the software ecosystem | they want to create." | | There is absolutely no such right, neither morally nor | legally | jevgeni wrote: | What are these platitudes? Of course they have a legal | and moral right to do so, otherwise it wouldn't be put | into law. | insert_coin wrote: | The right to one's own work, to one's own mind outcome is | arguably the only real right we can even pretend to have. | | What there is none is the "right" for governments to | claim ownership to other's work and dictate you must do | what your own free will tells you is not on your best | interest, that is why they use force. | ClumsyPilot wrote: | My work and private data is stored on apples's systems, | so either it's my rights to do as I please or their's. | greycol wrote: | That is a clearly a semantic simplification. All rights | are conditional, the "right to one's own work" is | conditional on the "right of others work not to impede on | one's own work". From this alone you can see the | contradiction and realise that rights are a compromise of | different interests. From there we're just arguing about | who can wield what force to enforce what rights. Perhaps | it's not in my best interest not to be the sole source of | force in the world but it's certainly in others. | leothecool wrote: | Its not exactly a good thing that they leveraged itunes | library vendor lock-in to drive market share early on. | The anti-consumer aspects of their closed ecosystem | directly resulted in their success. There's no doubt | about it. | dijit wrote: | Sorry, I don't buy this at all. | | iTunes library (at least for Books and Music) is DRM-free | and has been from an early stage (though _did_ launch | with DRM). | | I've had great success in migrating my purchased items | back and forth from linux with absolutely no issue. | However now they're using streaming and I'm unable to | easily "own" any music anymore... or at the very least it | takes you off of the easy path. | leothecool wrote: | Right. At launch, leveraging ipod marketshare was key. | After those same users got locked in to the app-store, | the music library lock in became less important. So they | started out by letting you pay extra money to break out | of their walled garden. I'm pretty sure purchases made in | the ipod era are still drm encumbered today. | dkonofalski wrote: | Apple _wanted_ to launch iTunes as DRM-free but wasn 't | able to negotiate the licensing for it. The content | providers were the ones that made the DRM a requirement. | Wowfunhappy wrote: | Are iBooks DRM-Free now? That's exciting, do you know | when that happened? | aardvarkr wrote: | Yeah, apple was one of the first to go DRM free for | music. That was a big deal and a bold move by apple. | fouric wrote: | > Apple has the right to create the software ecosystem | they want to create. | | So say you. I say that consumers have the right to run | whatever software they want on the hardware that they | have purchased. | | Apple can create whatever software platform they want, | but it seems pretty bad that they don't allow you to use | whatever software platform _you_ want on the hardware | that _you paid them for_. | kevingadd wrote: | In the past US regulators have not agreed with your | reasoning here. They broke up the original big telephone | companies, for example. | zepto wrote: | Those had an actual monopoly - literally no alternative | service provider. | kbenson wrote: | Anti-competitive behavior does not require a Monopoly. A | monopoly is just a specific type of situation which makes | anti-competitive behavior easy and incentivized. | | Anti-competitive behavior that harms consumers is the | problem (and question). Whether Apple is a monopoly or | not is really besides the point. | jevgeni wrote: | It's still difficult to argue that Apple refusing to | subsidize Epic store is anti competitive | kbenson wrote: | In isolation, maybe. When you consider that they control | the whole stack, and you can't run other operating system | software on their phones and nor can you run their | software on other hardware, and that the operating system | is what's ensuring that only their store is allowed, that | given them full control of hardware, operating system, | store, (and because of store) third party software that | runs on it. | | There is no competition in hardware for their operating | system because of them locking it down. | | There is no competition in operating systems for their | hardware because of them locking it down. | | There is no competition in application delivery for their | systems because of locking it down. | | There is no competition in some applications and/or | functionality (webview/safari) for their systems because | of them locking it down. | | Each of these rely on and in turn reinforce the others. | Taken together they all Apple to control _absolutely_ all | competition to do with their devices. Some aspects of | this are fairly normalized and we 're used to, but others | less so (the complete hardware/OS lockdown, which in turn | feeds into problems with repair). Whether some aspects | seem normal or not, they all deserve a look with fresh | eyes, as the world and how we use devices like this is | changing, and old models of thinking may or may not work | best for us. The bottom line is whether consumers are | harmed by their actions or not, and that's what we should | use to measure this, not whether it seems okay, or | matches our way of thinking about what a company should | be able to control. | | At the base level, I think a useful question to ask is | "why is the store cut for managing and distributing apps | 30%, and why hasn't it changed with the emergence of | other stores?" One answer might be that it really takes | about 30% of revenues to provide store functionality. | Common public sources seem to indicate this is not the | case. Another answer might be that for some reason, the | market is resistant to change. I think this is because | one large market member, Apple, is insulated from | competition to a large degree, and didn't feel any | pressure to change. Other market members match this | number because the market is distorted by Apple's | resistance to change. I think the fact that as soon as | congress started making noises about investigating app | market pricing Apple was able to immediately drop their | cut for certain store items significantly points towards | them knowing this, and wanting to get ahead of the | problem so the status quo isn't changed too much to their | detriment. | leothecool wrote: | Not true. MCI predates the break-up of ma bell. | zepto wrote: | It wasn't available to everyone. | kevingadd wrote: | If I want to use FaceTime to talk to my mother, the only | way I can do that is by purchasing an iPhone. What's the | difference? Do I have to buy my mom a new Android phone | and repurchase all her apps and digital content to | exercise my Consumer Freedom? | _jal wrote: | My mother uses a Cryptophone[1]. The only way I can talk | to her is to buy her a replacement. | | What's the difference? | | [1] https://www.cryptophone.de . And no, of course not. | toomuchtodo wrote: | You can use any number of other chat or video | communications apps available on both iOS and Android to | chat with your mother (I recommend Signal, but | FlownScepter's list is good as well). | | Your desire to specifically use FaceTime does not make it | a monopoly. | FlownScepter wrote: | A nonexhaustive list of FaceTime alternatives: Skype, | Facebook Messenger, Discord, Zoom, GoToMeeting, Google | Hangouts, Cisco Webex, Microsoft Teams, Spike, ICQ, Tox, | Viber, WhatsApp, Line, WeChat, Wire. | cgrealy wrote: | Oh come on, who hates their mother enough to make her use | Webex? | | /shudder | FlownScepter wrote: | You don't know my mother. :P | dleslie wrote: | None of those are FaceTime, which is what OP's mother | uses. | uberduper wrote: | This is like complaining you can't gmail someone from | your hotmail account. | dleslie wrote: | If I couldn't send an email to a gmail account from a | hotmail account then something is wrong. | maaanu wrote: | But I literally can email somebody from email-provider a | to email-provider b. But, lets be realistic, if the email | would be discovered/invented today, that would not be the | case ;-) | dleslie wrote: | This is true; every non-ephemeral messaging system on | social networks is a replacement for email. A poor | replacement. | FlownScepter wrote: | That would be the meaning of "alternatives," yes. | dleslie wrote: | It's not an alternative if it does not meet the necessary | conditions for use. | insert_coin wrote: | Yes, the condition of being named _facetime_ is not met. | That 's the point of ALTERNATIVES. | dodobirdlord wrote: | Companies have exclusive control of their own products | basically by definition. Claiming that there's some sort | of monopolistic behavior _inherent_ in a company deciding | where and how you can buy their product is absolute | shark-jumping. | dleslie wrote: | That's a poor definition. Many companies are regulated in | a manner where their services must be open to competition | to access and use. | FlownScepter wrote: | This is an incredible jump. By this logic, literally any | format or given protocol can be called into question if | it isn't 100% transferable between all platforms. That | basically renders everything newer than line telephones, | email and SMS as monopolistic. | | Hell, even the different cellular carriers fail this | definition because you can't use a Verizon sim card to | access AT&T. | bezout wrote: | This brings up an interesting question: should companies | be held accountable for the network effects generated by | their products on users (not competitors)? | | I'd argue not, as long as users can still achieve the | same goal in a different way, and it doesn't worsen their | quality of life. | | For instance, in this context, the OP's mother can still | do a phone call, or agree to use a different software - | which, by the way, is probably free. | judge2020 wrote: | Your consumer freedom entitles you to a choice, not to | demand companies sink money to accommodate your specific | use case. Just like you can't demand for Pepsi to ship | Coke product on their trucks, you can't demand Apple | spend millions of dollars to port Facetime or iMessage to | Android. Apple has a right to decide what sort of | features and platforms they support for their apps, so if | they decide to not support Android, that's just a reason | for you to exercise your consumer freedom of choice and | use a different product. Meanwhile, anyone else that you | want to Facetime with has chosen a product (Facetime) | that only allows calling other users on the same iOS | software as them, and that's them exercising their | consumer freedom of choice. If they want to call people | that are on Android, they can choose other apps which do | support calling Android phones. | | But that's talking about Facetime as if it's a product. | It's not - it's a feature of iOS, iPadOS and MacOS. | Effectively, Facetime isn't free - it's a unlimited use | service that is paid for with your initial purchase of | your Mac or iOS device and includes a perpetual, | transferable license. | dleslie wrote: | Enacting regulation to force open access is well-trod the | world over. Apple may not need to port FaceTime, but | there is strong cause to demand that all social networks | and communication providers either adopt open standards | or open their protocols and adhere to them. | FlownScepter wrote: | A quick Google says iOS' market share is 14%. | | I don't understand this position at all. Google is by far | and away the market leader. Their ecosystem is free and | you can do just about anything in it. Their Play store's | standards are utterly bare bones. The devices are | cheaper. If what you want is an open source (ish) | platform that you can hack on, modify, install software | yourself, whatever, all of that is available to you, at a | lower price, over there. This feels to be the ultimate | first world problem, to pay a handsome premium for a top- | tier device, then to complain about it's shortcomings. So | take it back! Nobody _made you buy one._ | | It's not like there aren't Android handsets that do all | the stuff iOS ones do, occasionally even better, for | similar prices. The main reason I stick to iOS is | precisely for the locked down OS, and the curated App | Store, so to see so many people complaining that they | purchased the device when those things are like, the most | obvious part of what comprises an iOS device, then | complain about those things, is utter madness to me. | | Why the fuck must Apple also do that, with a higher | priced device, that everyone claims is inferior to | Android handsets with their quad core processors and is | "just a fashion item?" Android users seem unhealthily | obsessed with turning iOS into Android. Just let us do | our own thing over here for fuck's sake. | | Yet again and again on here and elsewhere, iOS is | constantly positioned as this MONOLITH of anti-consumer | anti-developer DOOM, absolutely RUINING the mobile | market. Again, FOUR. TEEN. PERCENT. | KillahBhyte wrote: | THIS! Say it a little louder for those in the back. I | work in IT. I do not want to have a mini IT project in my | pocket that I have to fiddle with. I want a device that | is dependable above all else that I don't have to work on | for my everyday driver. This is the same answer I provide | every time someone at work ask my why I carry an Apple | phone. To me the curation is part of the draw. I know | that this phone will require the least amount of my | attention to keep it working day in, day out. That is the | feature I wanted most. | | But every iOS post I read is along the lines of make it | like android, and I have the same prevailing thought. | Why?? I would not own a MacOS machine, I wouldn't like | it. But I don't feel the need to get on every Mac | discussion complaining it should be more like Linux. The | fact the differences exist is a good thing. | kbenson wrote: | Allowing competition doesn't mean you need to use that | competition. Don't install any other stores and don't | toggle the flag to allow alternate stores, and you would | have and iPhone exactly as it is now. | | There's no reason to expect it will be exactly like a PC, | which is coming from a completely open past to a future | which allows more locking down. The iPhone is locked down | now, it's a bit ridiculous to assume they would | immediately go straight to allowing anything and | everything to be installed without any hoops jumped | through. | | Even Android requires you to allow unsafe sources to | isntall third party packages. Why would anyone expect the | iPhone to go farther than this when they're fighting | tooth and nail to not even do this much? | dkonofalski wrote: | Exactly. It's the same reason rich people hire people to | do their accounting and cleaning and all the other stuff | they don't want to do. I want to pick up my phone and use | it not mess with it every 3 days because there's | something slightly off or there's a bug with the latest | mod I installed. | FlownScepter wrote: | I actually have a Mac too, but I also have Bootcamp | configured because Mac doesn't do everything I need. I'm | just like, what do I need to do right now, and what's the | most reliable tool for that job? | | My phone, ultimately, is communications and quick | research. I need it to make calls, send messages, send | emails, and use the browser. And off-duty, I use the | camera to capture memories. I got the big one because I | wanted the bigger screen (though ultimately I miss the | smaller size one I had before, so that will likely change | whenever I get around to replacing it.) | | And I also do projects. I build 3D printers, I play with | Pi's, I build PC's. I do all kinds of tinkering shit. I | just don't feel the need to do it on my phone, and | therefore what are cited as "limitations" of it are just | irrelevant to me. It does everything I need it to do, and | more. | | Android and iOS in my mind aren't really even in | competition. They're two very similar products that | should appeal to two entirely different userbases. | They're pickups and sportscars, both great for what they | do, but utlimately trying to have a pickup that's also a | sportscar just means it's probably going to be lousy at | both. | 40four wrote: | What makes you think Android is a 'mini-IT' project? I | have an iPhone now, but I used Android for years. It was | always great. It always just worked, no 'fiddling' | required. The idea that you have to do work to keep a | Android running daily is odd to me. | | Now that I've had an iPhone for a couple years, I can't | think of single time where the app store 'curation' has | benefited me. I'm not even sure what that means. I've | released apps on both Google Play and iOS, and sure, it's | a little more difficult to get an iOS app passed by | Apple. But what does that really get us in the end? | _Maybe_ a little more protection from malicious actors, | but not much more in my opinion. | | I really think the idea that the iOS app store 'curation' | is a feature that we benefit from as users is a myth | Apple has made us all believe. It's mostly marketing | speak & a 'placebo' effect for the end user, and a huge | headache for the app developers. As a developer, app | reviews take no less than a day or two to clear. And you | have to sit there and hope they don't send it back | rejected for some vague reason, or some random contractor | in China doesn't reject it because they typed in the demo | account password wrong (Yes, we had this happen at my job | multiple times, and it wasted many days of our time). | | I think app store 'curation' and the 'walled garden' get | conflated sometimes. In the walled garden, where they | have full control over the hardware & the OS, they have | chosen to not allow any other method of distributing apps | except through them. The idea that this is somehow making | my life better I will never get. Either way, that in and | of itself doesn't really bother me. What does bother me | is that they think they are entitled to 3/10ths of every | apps business in the walled garden. There is no way that | makes sense. | | They charge a yearly fee for developer accounts. I think | this yearly fee system is how it should be handled. If | their argument is that they are providing the servers and | infrastructure and manpower to provide the app store | service, then they could make more tiers. For bigger | customers like Epic who use more of those resources they | could charge more to cover the cost. But there is no way | I'll ever be convinced that a 30% fee on every | transaction across the board is fair or equitable. | KillahBhyte wrote: | > What makes you think Android is a 'mini-IT' project? | | My first one. HTC when 4G first got hot. It was a | horrible shitshow and soured my taste ever since. I can | see that was a combo of manufacturer, Sprint as my | carrier, and early Android OS but that spoke a lot to my | understanding of the ecosystem and how incentives were | set up. My follow up experience with phones for my kids | or staff has been better but I've never gave them the | chance for daily driver again. It's a system I tinker | with but not depend on. I understand that's anecdotal and | YMMV, but then again I'm not looking for validation of my | opinion. Is what it is, just stating what colored my | purchasing decision. | | 30% is crazy. I've said the same about Steam for years | and you'll get no arguments from me there. Does it makes | sense from the standpoint of the developer? Not at all | but my opinion there doesn't matter as I don't develop | for iOS nor am I very concerned with 3rd party apps. As a | customer, I don't care. The idea of curation may be | placebo but even the placebo effect is measurable. It may | dissuade malware developers from the platform at first | principles. That 30% may serve as a soft barrier to entry | from race to the bottom competitors even if that isn't | its intended purpose. I can admit Play Store has cleaned | up its act a good bit since its inception but first | impressions are hard to get around. | | End of day the reason for me buying an Apple phone as my | daily was for reliability. I can't remember the last time | I had to restart or tinker with my iPhone to get it to | work, but I can't say the same for my kids various | Android phones. It wasn't for the robustness of the | platform or marketplace cause I would've just bought an | Android. Also see my other argument in this thread about | being the actual customer and a few other points. Fair | payment doesn't really factor in for me, that is a | business decision for someone else to make. For me and | the choices that I have in front of me, this seems like | the best one for my goals even if those differences are | limited in scope. The fact that we can choose between | them on these differences is a good thing. To get back to | GPs point, if this doesn't work for you then don't buy it | and let the free market do its thing. | ApolloFortyNine wrote: | >I do not want to have a mini IT project in my pocket | that I have to fiddle with. | | Having the ability to install apps not available on the | app store does not make your entire phone something you | 'have to fiddle with'. If you want to live in the walled | garden, you of course can do so, just as many people do | on Android. | | >But I don't feel the need to get on every Mac discussion | complaining it should be more like Linux. | | This is an interesting take, seeing how a big reason Macs | are so popular amongst developers is the similarity to | Linux (which the vast majority of us are going to be | deploying to). | mbreese wrote: | I would be interested to know what would happen if Apple | said "sure -- install whatever you want, but your | warranty is now void." How many people (especially the | EU) would have a problem with that? | | I mean, that's effectively where this whole argument | leads. You could imagine a scenario where using external | software could damage things like your battery, so now | the user is on their own. | | I don't think that's a tenable option either. | | This is effectively what Google does with Chromebooks and | developer mode. But if you've enabled developer mode, | can't you go back? But when you get into trouble, you can | revert back to the base install (and lose all other | data). Again, that's not a good option either as people | would complain about that too. | KillahBhyte wrote: | >If you want to live in the walled garden, you of course | can do so, just as many people do on Android. | | I've had both device types through the years. I've had to | support both device types in different form factors. As a | developer I love Android. I've learned to code some Java | and lightweight game development for Android due to that | openness of the platform. But the pros of the walled | garden concept do not shine through on Android as they do | with Apple due to the lack of how tightly integrated and | compatible the hardware & software are from being | developed together and approved by a sole source. | | As a purchaser of an Apple product, I feel fairly | confident that I am Apple's customer. With Android, the | customer is the manufacturer\carrier combo that runs my | phone, and I am their customer. That distinction carries | an important difference and it shows through the | development tracts of both companies and how they deal | with issues. | | Let's be honest here. If this goes through to force Apple | to allow competitors to their app store, that decision | will go further than developer sideloading (which is | already possible). It will not happen in a vacuum and as | soon as the courts hand down such a decision the carriers | will be next in line to shovel as much horse manure down | the line as possible. | | I've never purchased an Apple phone with pre-loaded | software as part of a deal with a carrier, aka Bloatware. | I have from Android manufacturers on several occasions. | Lower standards of entry from 3rd party sources often | mean lower standards for bugs, resource usage, and | privacy concerns. Higher risk of malware. Lower chance of | software to OS compatibility. Apple phones with whole | disk encryption made the news when the feds couldn't | break it as easily as Android devices. | | >Macs are so popular amongst developers is the similarity | to Linux | | Then I rescind the poor choice of analogy and go straight | to fundamentals. These two different tools are purpose | built for different things from different principles and | that is ok. Homogenizing the mobile space in a way that | would detract from those differences would be a net | negative in my opinion. | HideousKojima wrote: | 14% is worldwide, in the US it's roughly 50% | FlownScepter wrote: | That's still nothing close to a monopoly. | stale2002 wrote: | Anti trust law does not require a monopoly. | FlownScepter wrote: | Anti-trust law is entirely irrelevant despite how often | it gets brought up in this discussion. Entering into the | restrictions of an iPhone is 100% voluntary. You do not | currently have the right to run whatever code you want on | anything you own. | | This fails every commonly held definition of a monopoly. | We're not even talking like, cable company monopoly here | that's entered into by virtue of buying or renting | property in a given space, which at least you have a lot | of friction there to claim "I can't reasonably be | expected to go elsewhere just to buy from a different | cable provider." You literally just buy an Android phone, | and you're free of the restrictions imposed by Apple, | immediately. | Daho0n wrote: | Why do you repeat market share? It is completely | irrelevant and unless you understand this it is no wonder | you are confused. Abuse of market position has nothing to | do with monopoly. You can abuse your position without | having a monopoly. Even if Apple had 1% they could still | abuse their position. You can disagree that it is a | problem but talking about market share is missing the | point. | | >Just let us do our own thing over here for fuck's sake. | | No one is forcing you to do anything. There can be 10 app | stores and you could still use one the one. Just like | many PC gamers have done for decades. I own hundreds of | games and I only use GOG and Steam. Pretending you are | forced to do anything is disingenuous. People have more | right to use their bought hardware than you and Apple | have to deny it. It's not a matter of if but when Apple | will be forced to allow people to own their owned | hardware. | chc wrote: | It's true that nobody has to buy an iPhone, in that they | can choose any of the one competing platform. "There's | literally a single competitor" isn't a very strong | argument _against_ regulation, though. | JakeTheAndroid wrote: | I don't know that it's entirely fair to say there is | literally a single competitor. While Android is a single | platform, you're free to get it from a range of vendors | that all add their own flavor to Android. Some are really | locked down, some are root by default. So you actually | have a range of competing platforms even if they are | powered by only 2 OSes. | | And in the case of both devices (Apple and Android) you | can still flash your own "competing" OS on the hardware. | It's far easier to do this on an Android device than an | Apple one, but the hardware is separate from the software | you're running. But there are multiple mobile OSes not | named Android or iOS. | | What qualifies as a competitor, and what responsibility | does Apple or Android have at creating new competitors? | What actions are Google or Apple taking to actively stomp | out mobile based OSes? Didn't Mozilla give it a shot? | Didn't Ubunutu put out a mobile version of their OS? The | lack of competitor for OSes seems like an odd argument to | make. They exist even if they don't have marketshare, and | there is no requisite business structure behind an OS in | order for it to be a competing software. There are | options. They may not be the single most accessible, and | they may not meet your needs, but they exist. | chc wrote: | This argument doesn't pass the "Would it work just as | well as a defense of late-'90s Microsoft?" test. I would | be willing to concede most of the facts you brought up, | but none of that in any way mitigates the amount of | control Apple holds. Nobody's saying it's Apple's _fault_ | that they 're in a duopoly position in the phone space, | but that doesn't absolve them of the responsibility that | position holds either. What is Apple's fault is that | they're using their position in one market to force out | potential competitors in other markets (e.g. in-app | payments, and app distribution in general). | aboringusername wrote: | Epic demands Apple do thing = bad for Apple (good for Epic) | no way | | Apple demand Facebook do thing = Good for Apple (bad for FB) | yes way | | So Apple is allowed to get its own way, 100% of the time, no | questions asked, what they want is what they get end of (by | virtue of holding all the cards and owning the platform they | dictate the rules on) | | How about no? You can play by your rules in your sandbox, but | Epic has a right to demand it's allowed a sandbox in the same | park, maybe Apple will be forced to change its business if | everyone starts playing in Epic's sandbox and consumers | decide Apple's policies are rubbish? | | That's the very definition of "competition" something Apple | has avoided for over a decade at this point (as far as iOS | inter-competition goes) | ericmay wrote: | > Epic demands Apple do thing = bad for Apple (good for | Epic) no way | | Epic demands Apple do a thing = bad for Apple, bad for | customers (good for Epic) | | > Apple demand Facebook do thing = Good for Apple (bad for | FB) yes way | | Apple demands Facebook do a thing = Good for Apple, good | for customers (bad for Facebook) | | As a customer in these equations, I'm siding with Apple. | | > That's the very definition of "competition" something | Apple has avoided for over a decade at this point | | Why do I have to use Epic's game store for Fortnite? Why | can't I create my own skins with paint and sell them for | whatever I want? | ahiknsr wrote: | >Epic demands Apple do a thing = bad for Apple, bad for | customers (good for Epic) | | not bad for all customers. I would like to side-load | third party apps on my Iphone. Remember when app store | banned a hn reader app because it showed Covid-related | submissions[1] | | [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24410652 | aardvarkr wrote: | Idk about you but I've been sideloading apps for years on | my iPhone. There's an entire subreddit for it if you're | really that interested. | toinetoine wrote: | > Epic demands Apple do a thing = bad for Apple, bad for | customers (good for Epic) | | How is allowing developers to use alternate payment | platforms "bad for customers"? Or, if not on the phone, | at least to allow them to add funds to their account from | the browser/another platform and use it in their iOS app? | judge2020 wrote: | So Apple allows Epic to put their store on iOS, but of | course has to allow anyone to put their Store on iOS | since otherwise it wouldn't be competitive. What about | when Facebook makes Facebook its own marketplace, and the | apps it distributes bypass the IDFA and track users | without the popup, and of course don't have a privacy | nutrition label? What about the hundreds of other $adtech | companies bootstrapping their privacy-invasive, scam, and | malicious apps (think 'your phone has a virus, call apple | support' scams), is that not bad for the consumer? | | Surely we can just apply the Windows argument of "well | they should get antivirus software and stop browsing | shady sites" and go about our day having improved the | landscape for the tech-literate, while having increased | the risk other people take on by using their phone if | they don't know the first thing about ensuring the apps | they download are safe or privacy-preserving. That's why | people buy iPhone - you literally do not have to worry | about malicious App Store apps. | dralley wrote: | How is Epic fighting to reduce Apple's cut of app store | proceeds (30%!) bad for customers? At worst it's | customer-neutral, at best it could reduce prices. | dijit wrote: | if you dislike uPlay and Origin, you should probably side | with Apple on this. | Tom4hawk wrote: | I dislike uPlay and Origin and that's why I'm avoiding | them (I still have some games on them but something has | to be veeery interesting for me to buy it there - I'm | even willing to pay more to get same thing on Steam). | | Why are we all talking about creating more stores? | Shouldn't we opt into creating systems API for stores? | That way you could choose store application and have | products from all repositories (stores) available in | there. | | On most Linuxes you add repository and it doesn't matter | if you use official package manager, graphical one, or | some unofficial bash script. You are able to install same | software. | AYBABTME wrote: | What if consumers like it like that: one sandbox curated by | Apple? | dariusj18 wrote: | Then they continue to use the Apple App store. | dleslie wrote: | That may not be an option if work-necessary or social- | connection-necessary software moves to an alternate store | to enjoy less restrictions. | kevingadd wrote: | At the point where your device has work software on it | all bets are off to begin with. Your employer might | straight up require you to use an Android phone. What | you're describing is your employer using their free | choice to decide where to distribute apps. | | Incidentally, employers already have the ability to | distribute custom iOS software for their employees, so | your scenario wouldn't happen. | m12k wrote: | Those consumers should have every right to stay in that | sandbox. And the rest of us should have the right to use | a different one. | covercash wrote: | You do have that right, it's called Android. | kevingadd wrote: | You only have that right in advance, though. If I get an | iPhone and buy a bunch of software on it and then 3 years | later Apple Changes The Terms Of Our Relationship, I | don't have any ability to migrate my data (let alone my | purchases) to another platform. Not only do I have to buy | a new smartphone, I have to re-buy my apps even if those | apps are available on Android. Even if the app's | developer wants to give me the app for free on other | platforms, they can't, because Apple refuses to give | developers any information on their customers. This came | up previously when some OS X software had to leave the | Mac App Store. Likewise any music or videos I bought on | iTunes won't migrate over to my Android phone - in the | era of physical media this wasn't a problem, you could | pop your CD or DVD into any player you want so you had | true freedom. | | Windows and Mac and Linux environments are not sandboxed | like this either. All my data is files in folders, and I | can export it as I like to another machine. | hashingroll wrote: | Do you think it would be unfair to the users who bought | an iPhone 3 years back considering sandboxed appstore as | one of the main reason to buy it? | kergonath wrote: | This is a problem with any store, though, except for some | very specific situations. You won't solve that problem by | having more isolated islands. I agree that this should be | improved, I have no illusion that Facebook and Epic have | any intention of doing that. | abakker wrote: | Freedom of choice implies that you do have to make | choices though. If I buy a Ford, and later decide that a | Chevy is what I want, I don't complain...I sell the Ford. | | If I have a windows computer, and I buy a mac, I can't | run all my windows software. The developers of that | software may not even make mac equivalents. | | The idea that choices need to be ultimately convenient | and consequence free is just not realistic. Depreciation, | transaction costs, and functional differences between | products are a consumer's problem to manage. | | I agree with you on media files, but, I also know that | there are plenty of workarounds to exporting iTunes | specific media formats if you would rather leave iTunes | behind. | sunahe wrote: | Cool, how do I install it on my iPhone? The one I bought | with my money? | pjmlp wrote: | The same way I install iOS on my Android phone I bought | with my money. | robin_reala wrote: | Visit https://projectsandcastle.org/ and follow the | instructions, assuming your hardware meets the current | requirements. | kyriakos wrote: | There are alternative stores on android but no one forces | you to use them. The same will apply to iPhone | kergonath wrote: | What I am very afraid of is a situation in which every | developer pushes its own App Store with dodgy security | and privacy. | | "Oh, you want Photoshop? Just add the Adobe store (don't | look at permissions, also please give us your debit card | number, we promise it'll be safe)". | | "Oh, you want that nifty game? Just install our store. | And also give us your bank account." | | "Yes, Apple is draconian. So to get the Facebook app, you | must give us complete access to your phone and all data | you send. Sign with your blood here." | | From an opsec perspective, Apple's store associated with | a prepaid debit card is great. They are far from ideal, | but they have amongst the best privacy practices in the | industry, have great customer support, and their | interests align with mine better than those of their | competitors. | | We know that the second third party stores are allowed, | some developer will force them on us. | africanboy wrote: | > What if consumers like it like that: one sandbox | curated by Apple? | | if they like it, they can keep using it. | | EDIT: apparently suggesting people to keep using | something they like deserves downvotes :) | ed25519FUUU wrote: | > _On the one hand, Apple is acting as a store curator and | demanding that its customers be made aware of tracking | software._ | | Can't this still be true for the App Store though? | ChrisLomont wrote: | >No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading | or other stores from competing. | | How does this differ from "any programmable electronics should | allow sideloading"? I don't see that as a very workable | solution, legally, practically, or even in a pro-consumer | sense. | | It would certainly drive the cost of most electronics up | incredibly as all devices would need to produce APIs and | upgradeability. | ocdtrekkie wrote: | The bar is simple: If they allow third party apps at all, | they're already providing those APIs, and must allow | competitive use of them. | nabla9 wrote: | It seems you are making category mistake. | | Using term _hypocritical_ for corporate law seems error just | like it does for using it for animals. Apple is engaging in | legal battles and hypocritical is not a legal consideration. | Apple is not a an entity you can judge using moral psychology. | | Apple uses "corporate messaging" toward consumers that has | ethical content. It may be mistaken as morality, but it's just | how a company's management talks to people. It is a marketing | message strategy. | isodev wrote: | > No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading | or other stores from competing. | | The iPhone is not a computer platform, it's an integrated | experience. Raspberry Pi or the PC you assemble is a platform | (which you can still choose to do, if you want). | paulgb wrote: | That's one way of looking at it, but I think the reason the | issue keeps coming up on HN is that it feels like a serious | regression that we've ended up in a world where one of the | most ubiquitous platforms is a walled garden. Even in the | days of Windows dominance, that wasn't a problem. | | The transition happened so gradually that we ended up here | without a lot of discussion, which is why the discussion is | happening now. | EveYoung wrote: | But customers who like to have more freedom can still buy | Android phones instead. Nobody is forcing them to buy Apple | devices. I think it's a positive thing that we have diverse | options for different needs. | jpttsn wrote: | No, Apple has been pestered to make the iPhone an open | platform from day one. They've consistently said no. | | I bet you're right about the motivation for this silly | outrage: People claim the iPhone is a PC because they wish | it to be, because the cognitive dissonance was so great | when "Open didn't always win" | vlozko wrote: | Is it a regression, though? In the days of Windows, malware | was rampant. There was no sense of sandboxing so installs | could get deeply embedded and hard to purge. There was | certainly the uncertainty of the validity of software when | downloaded. | | This is not to suggest we should remove this capability | from macOS/Windows but I wouldn't call it a regression. | paulgb wrote: | That's a good point, but I feel like modern Mac desktop | computing hits the right balance: users can opt to | install only from the App store with a high degree of | confidence, but power-users can use Homebrew without | restriction. | jonwinstanley wrote: | > No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading | or other stores from competing | | What about platforms like Playstation or the computers built | into Teslas etc, should we allow sideloading on those? How do | you define a platform? | harha wrote: | Unless they buy back the hardware, why not? | | Companies change over time, it's unrealistic to have the same | service for ever (typically the product might be discontinued | and not supported after some time, sometimes also the | attitude when it comes to service changes). At the same time | the platform was bought not rented and producing it and | getting rid of it has its own cost. | | I would argue it's fair to demand open access to it. | | I have an old iPad (3rd gen), since it can't access iCloud | properly or sync bookmarks with safari (a function that it | originally had) or install Firefox, it's essentially useless | and I'm very unhappy with that, a whole car would be much | worse though. I've learned to think about that before buying, | but many don't and often there's no choice. | mikepurvis wrote: | TBH I wouldn't be at all surprised if Microsoft is gearing up | for this fight with Sony, given that every Xbox Series does | in fact allow sideloading once placed into the included-and- | supported developer mode. | throwaway48201 wrote: | Maybe not gearing up for a fight with, but rather making | sure they don't get lumped in with | | Google have made it very clear that you have options other | than the Play Store in recent dev docs | mywittyname wrote: | MS is ahead of the curve here. Rather than trying to combat | homebrew, they are embracing it within some predefined | boundaries. | | The 360 allowed for homebrew as well. I think they learned | a lot from XBMC. | IntelMiner wrote: | What? The 360 never had any homebrew enabled | kevingadd wrote: | It was called XBox Live Indie Games, you could sideload | anything you wanted once you paid the initial fee, and | then you could put it on the store and accept purchases | if it got through a peer review system. | mywittyname wrote: | Sure you could! I used XNA Game Studio to produce games | and apps that would run on my 360. They couldn't take | full advantage of the hardware. But if you paid a fee, | you could sell your game on XBL much like the App Store | or Steam. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_XNA_Game_Studio | efraim wrote: | General purpose computing. A game console or Tesla computer | is not made for general programs, they have specific | purposes. | | It's also a case of "you know it when you see it", iPhone | wasn't a big platform when it launched but now it's the | primary platform for many peoples computer needs, it should | not be exclusively run by a private company. | jaegerpicker wrote: | Explain the difference in functional ability between the | iPad vs the Switch? Xbox series x? PS5? Web Browser, email, | streaming media? All possible on any of the devices. The | only difference is that Apple is better at building devices | that people like. Apple built the platform, built the | hardware, designed the OS, and built the sdk/API's but now | they aren't allowed to control their own platform? How does | that make any sense? | efraim wrote: | If there's a computer in it, there is no clear technical | difference. The difference is how people use it. You | don't use a switch as your only computer device, banks | and stores don't need to create apps for all those | platforms to be competitive. | ericmay wrote: | > it should not be exclusively run by a private company. | | Why? If you don't like the iPhone there are other general | purpose computers that you can use, ranging from a laptop | to a Pixel smart phone... | | > General purpose computing. | | If you want to call it a general purpose computer, then you | also have to include tablets, laptops, desktop computers, | and Android phones. All of a sudden there is quite a bit of | choice for customers here. To name a few: | | Google | | Microsoft | | Samsung | | LG | | Dell | | HP | | Huawei | | Amazon | | ... | | The fact that Apple may very well make the best one, | doesn't mean there isn't competition or that it isn't a | competitive market. | efraim wrote: | It's dishonest to pretend that smart phones are not a | very large and important portion of the digital market | today and very hard to be without. They are used for | payment, identification, messaging etc that a laptop or | desktop can not replace. Having the choice between apple | or google is not much of a choice. And a company that | wan't to reach the public must have a smart phone app and | therefore must have a ios app. | | Your list of manufacturers does not take the platforms | into consideration. None of those are allowed to use | apples platform unless they follow their strict rules. | | There isnt't a competitive market unless ther's free | movement and perfect information and the two smart phone | platforms have large lock-in effects today so it hardly | qualifies. The portion of the market that is android or | windows are competitive markets, it's easy to switch from | a samsung phone to a lg phone. | ericmay wrote: | I'm not sure what I'm being dishonest about? If you're to | say that the iPhone is a general purpose computing device | then you have to also compare it to other general purpose | computing devices and take into consideration the general | purpose computing market. Maybe it's simply the best one | with the best features? I mean, I know that if I had to | choose to only have one (a laptop or iPhone) I'd choose | the laptop because it has features that the iPhone | doesn't. | | But they also have overlapping features, complementary | features, and sometimes mutually exclusive features. You | mention payments - I can pay for things using my laptop, | or if I have a credit or debit card (ya know, the thing | you're using for payments) I can just use that at the | store normally. Messaging - yep you can send messages | from your laptop. I could go on. The killer feature of | the iPhone is that it's in your pocket, but it's also a | limiting factor. You can live without one, easily, | however. Doom scrolling Facebook (sorry, keeping in touch | with friends and family - totally not addiction) is not | important and living without that is very easy. | | > Your list of manufacturers does not take the platforms | into consideration. None of those are allowed to use | apples platform unless they follow their strict rules. | | I can't use any of those manufacturer's platforms without | following their rules. I'm not sure what you're trying to | explain. | | > There isnt't a competitive market unless ther's free | movement and perfect information and the two smart phone | platforms have large lock-in effects today so it hardly | qualifies. | | You can debate whether it's a competitive market, but I'm | not sure what you're explaining here is part of the | considerations, or at least these may map to larger | overall considerations. But you have to be careful to be | specific about what you are talking about. Are we talking | about the iOS App Store, or the general purpose computer | market? It matters. | | > The portion of the market that is android or windows | are competitive markets, it's easy to switch from a | samsung phone to a lg phone. | | You can easily switch from iPhone to Android as well. One | of my friends does it at least once a year because he | wants to be "all-in" on either Google or Apple but finds | flaws in each. | jaegerpicker wrote: | It is competitive, it's just as easy to switch between | Android and iOS, it's not cheap but just as easy. | Wowfunhappy wrote: | > What about platforms like Playstation or the computers | built into Teslas etc, should we allow sideloading on those? | | I think we should, yes. Not necessarily by default, but there | should be a switch advanced users can flip. | | Re: Tesla, there is in fact a long history of people fixing | and modifying their cars. Why not the computers in those | cars? | ben_w wrote: | Hm. | | Hypothetical: if you modify the software in a Tesla, and | your modification allows a hacker to remote control it, and | this power is used to commit vehicular homicide, how much | of the burden of responsibility do you have? | | I'm not a lawyer, so while I can throw out phrases like | "endangering others through negligence", I don't know what | the threshold is or even if that's the right concept in | this case. | | With regards to game consoles, I tend to agree with you -- | no good reason for them to be allowed to prevent side- | loading. | | With regards to phones however, I explicitly want the | devices heavily locked down by law, to the extent that | other people should not be allowed to put random software | on them. This is because they are powerful sensor packages | that almost everyone carries almost all the time, so the | mere possibility of malware turning them into blackmail spy | boxes is a problem for all of society -- _everyone_ , given | what I've heard about "three felonies per day" [0] -- and | not just the person who installs the dodgy app. | | I say this despite not liking that the action of American | cultural hegemony in the App Store means those stores have | a bigger problem with nipples than with violence. | | And likewise, I have a problem with the law that requires | me (a British citizen working in Germany) to keep the U.S. | government informed about my app's use of encryption in | case I "export" something they can't break, which is | _insane_ in my opinion. | | Security is important and app stores help, but trust can be | chained and delegated, and it is possible to have | alternative App Stores which Apple/Google audit for | security. | | [0] https://kottke.org/13/06/you-commit-three-felonies-a- | day | africanboy wrote: | > Hypothetical: if you modify the software in a Tesla, | and your modification allows a hacker to remote control | it, and this power is used to commit vehicular homicide, | how much of the burden of responsibility do you have? | | Hypothetically: a friend borrows your car, but you didn't | fix the break fluid leak, and he runs over someone. | | Who's at fault? | | > With regards to phones however, I explicitly want the | devices heavily locked down by law, to the extent that | other people should not be allowed to put random software | on them | | that's the definition of a phone. | | IMO Apple is to blame for creating the "smart" phones | that can run arbitrary software. | | They have created the problem that they are allegedly | fixing by imposing walled garden on their users. | | It is like handing guns to kids and then locking them up | in their rooms so they are safe. | Wowfunhappy wrote: | > Hypothetical: if you modify the software in a Tesla, | and your modification allows a hacker to remote control | it, and this power is used to commit vehicular homicide, | how much of the burden of responsibility do you have? | | If you were _negligent_ , I'd say you were responsible, | just like if you hit someone because you took off the | breaks and couldn't stop. | | Although... response question: Let's say in ten years, | Tesla stops providing security updates for their old | cars. If you continue driving the car anyway, and it gets | hacked and kills someone, who is responsible? Which is to | say, I'm not super into this whole internet-connected-car | thing. ;) | | > With regards to phones however, I explicitly want the | devices heavily locked down by law, to the extent that | other people should not be allowed to put random software | on them. This is because they are powerful sensor | packages that almost everyone carries almost all the | time. | | What if I decide to carry around a Raspberry Pi, or wear | a wire? I understand the concern, but I don't think | controlling what everyone else uses is a reasonable | solution in a free society. | frosted-flakes wrote: | There's a long history of people loading custom firmware | ("tunes") on vehicle ECUs to modify how the engine runs. | Tesla's ECU shouldn't be any different. | tfehring wrote: | Or Fortnite, for that matter? Why should I be forced to buy | skins with Epic's in-game currency instead of loading my own? | Wowfunhappy wrote: | If the iPhone was an open platform, you could develop a mod | that makes your Fortnite character look like whatever you | want, for free. (It wouldn't show up that way for _other_ | people by default, but that 's someone else's phone, not | yours.) | tfehring wrote: | Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'd expect that iOS | being an open platform is neither necessary nor | sufficient for that. As I understand it, Epic could allow | users to load free custom skins today, even though it | operates on a closed platform. And conversely, even if | iOS were an open platform, Fortnite could remain closed- | source, and I'd expect Epic could take measures (hash- | validating assets on launch?) to prevent side-loading of | cosmetic items. | Wowfunhappy wrote: | On a traditional PC, or on a Mac with System Integrity | Protection disabled, there isn't a lot Epic could do to | prevent installing mods. The user can inject whatever | code they like into the Fortnite process. They can | rewrite data in memory, and even control the kernel if it | comes to that. | | Epic could try to make life difficult for modders, but a | lot of PC games have tried that over the years, and it | generally doesn't work when players are dedicated. | kevingadd wrote: | The content creator selects which currencies they are | willing to sell their product for. This shouldn't be | difficult to understand. Do I have the right to demand that | my local furniture store accept Bitcoin? | parthdesai wrote: | Fortnite is a free game, I pay to own my iPhone. | tfehring wrote: | Should it be different for similar games that aren't free | (gratis) then? Should I be required by law to be able to | load third-party items in Call of Duty? | wayneftw wrote: | There needs to be different rules for products that are | essential to modern life, like smartphones. | | We have more rules and regulations for things like food | services, airlines, banking and farming than we do for a | store like GameStop or a jewelry products. | AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: | Then if you care so much about running whatever software | you want on it, perhaps you should have bought a phone | that lets you do that instead? | | I'm not personally in favor of walled gardens myself, but | everyone who bought an iPhone knew that's what they were | getting and did it anyway. | kevingadd wrote: | "everyone who bought an iPhone knew that's what they were | getting and did it anyway" is an incredibly strong | assertion you're not making an effort to support here. | Are you seriously claiming that every owner of an iPhone | understood the nuances of Apple's app store policies | before they bought the phone? | AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: | Everyone in the world? No, clearly, but I doubt very many | of them care about being able to use other stores on | their phone anyway. The people here making the argument | for forcing Apple's hand? Yes. | cordite wrote: | People pay to own their tractors, but yet they can't | repair them. | mhh__ wrote: | Pragmatically, I don't care, because no one who owns a Tesla | is using it as their sole access to a computer (similarly | with playstation). Many people now only use an iPad or iPhone | these days. | | In an ideal world I would force them (I probably wouldn't for | a Tesla because diy software on a car...) to have some basic | ability to load programs. | abakker wrote: | Ah, the software Robin Hood, here to help the little guy | understand how to best use their own computer... This is | such a HN comment it hurts. Many people use iPhone and | iPads as their primary devices because everything is easy | and it all works. side loading apps is just not a concern | that people outside of HN even have. | | This lawsuit is about Epic trying to not pay the same fees | as everyone else not some giant ethical debate over the | rights that people should have on their devices. Epic wants | rights for themselves, they don't want them for their | customers. | rbtprograms wrote: | This is exactly the point I've been making to my friends | who think like the commenter you replied to. "Forcing | people to have some ability to load programs" is exactly | why so many people use Apple products; because it's | extremely intuitive for non-technology inclined people to | use. | mhh__ wrote: | And? They don't know any different or better, we don't | make policy on anything based on people like that. | | As I've said elsewhere, this is about tail risk not | tomorrow. | dpkonofa wrote: | Why don't they just do the same with Apple, then? Force | them to have some basic ability to load programs. You can | even make it easy for users and put an icon on the home | screen. To make it obvious that you can load apps and | programs for it, they would just need to label it as "App | Store" or something like that. Problem solved! | mhh__ wrote: | Because you don't have to pay Linus Torvalds money to run | a program on a Linux installation - that should be the | standard. | dpkonofa wrote: | What does that have to do with anything? You never said | anything about paying money. I don't have to pay anything | to run Mint or Mario Run on my phone so what's your | point? | Wowfunhappy wrote: | You have to pay Apple a minimum of $100 a year to install | apps on an iPhone, unless you're okay with the apps being | automatically disabled every seven days and never need to | install more than three custom apps at a time. | | You didn't realize this when you bought Mario Run, | because Nintendo paid Apple for you. | | And if Nintendo tries to sell you something to recuperate | that cost, they have to give Apple 30%. | ITPaw wrote: | and? the developer whats to put his apps on the app | store, why shouldn't they demand a fee. But that has | nothing to do with the customer. | Wowfunhappy wrote: | Because you can't distribute apps, or even install them | on your own phone, _without_ going through the app store. | (At least sans the ridiculous restrictions I described | above.) | kqvamxurcagg wrote: | Apple's iPhone is now systemically important to commerce, | business and consumers unlike Playstation and Tesla. Given | their size and scale they should be subject to higher | standards. | kevingadd wrote: | As someone who's released multiple retail games on the PS4 | store: Sony should allow sideloading. Microsoft does for the | XBox (and has since the 360 era), and at one point Sony | allowed it in the 'other OS' environment for the PS3 until | they decided to take out that feature after using it to | advertise their console. | jayd16 wrote: | I think burden to the platform is relevant. Part of the | security model on the console platforms is that no user code | can be run. To support side loading, many assumptions would | change overnight. This is a significant burden to Sony and | the game devs. | | Apple and iOS, on the other hand, support side loaded code. | It's just a matter of who pays for what. | CivBase wrote: | Facebook isn't the good guy. Apple isn't the good guy. Epic | isn't the good guy. | | Every now and then their interests align with those of the | users, but ultimately they all serve their own interests and | will happily stand opposed to the users whenever it suits them | best. | isodev wrote: | Such vendors are free to create game catalogs for their games | (Steam-like), taking the user to the App Store for downloads. | They can also have IAPs, Subscriptions and alls kinds of payment | options. Apple's own Arcade follows this same architecture so I | don't see Epic's argument at all. | | When I am using my iPhone/iPad, I expect all apps to work with | services connected to my Apple account. No user should be | required to provide payment information to a shady 3rd party like | Epic, Microsoft or whatever. | | It is clear that the "antitrust" action is designed to allow Epic | (and similar) to push a solution which is fit for their business | model. | | As a developer, I don't support the idea of alt-stores at all, it | would mean that only big corps will have the resources to create | and maintain such distribution channels. Nobody will go through | the trouble of installing an alt store for my FooBar pet-project | game. Also who is going to review these apps? | enragedcacti wrote: | > I expect all apps to work with services connected to my Apple | account. No user should be required to provide payment | information to a shady 3rd party like Epic, Microsoft or | whatever. | | Apple could make everyone happy tomorrow vis-a-vis IAPs by | charging standard credit card processing fees (~2-3%)instead of | 30% while still protecting your payment info from app | developers. | isodev wrote: | The App Store is also a distribution channel. The 15% seems | like a lot but I would have to pay, way, way more to achieve | the same level of presence elsewhere (without nasty tracking | ads). | no_wizard wrote: | It's all about money. I don't think epic wants a new App Store. | In fact I do t think the majority of _developers_ with legitimate | complaints with the App Store want competing app stores. | | They all want, from what I can boil down to, the majority of the | time, two things: | | 1. Control over payments (to cut out the 30%) | | 2. More control over releases and updates (particularly upgrade | pricing) | | I think if Apple caved in on these all this would go away. | | Likely, that's about all we will see from a successful lawsuit | too. | | It's never been about the App Store being the only game in town. | It's all about reviews, fees, release schedules and pricing | mechanics. I don't think the consumer wins if there are multiple | App Stores. I do think the consumer and smaller developers _may_ | win if there is some shift around the above issues, though | kevingadd wrote: | One argument in favor of multiple App Stores is that Apple has | historically been very aggressive about globally banning entire | product categories they dislike or apps that offend the | governments of foreign countries. Apple can continue to | exercise this discretion without harming consumer choice if | they offer sideloading for end users (or at least make their | browser more capable, with full support for PWAs and modern web | APIs) | matsemann wrote: | 3. Not having Apple make a competing product where they get | 100% of the revenue _and_ 30% of your revenue. (Which is the | case Spotify is arguing over) | pier25 wrote: | I think 30% is excessive but as a developer my biggest gripe | with the AppStore is definitely the tight grip Apple has over | what's published. You might work for years on an app and all | that effort can vanish into thin air if Apple decides they | don't want it. | kevingadd wrote: | Retroactively! It'd be one thing if it was up-front | rejections, but the internet is full of horror stories from | developers who suddenly found that Apple had decided their | product was no longer okay and that their customers didn't | matter, blocking future updates. Not even necessarily taking | it off the store, just ensuring it can never get bug fixes. | pier25 wrote: | > It'd be one thing if it was up-front rejections | | Well no because Apple needs to test the finished thing | before it can decide whether it wants it or not. | 4eor0 wrote: | All this suggests to me is Epic has a limited path to growth | without courts deciding they indeed are entitled to more profit | without producing anything net new. | Wowfunhappy wrote: | > Apple said its rules applied equally to all developers and that | Epic had violated them. | | All developers except Amazon, they mean. | | Now that it has happened, I'm actually surprised it took Epic | this long to file suit in the EU. Given Europe's stronger | antitrust enforcement and general skepticism of tech giants, Epic | likely has a stronger case there than in the US. If I were Epic, | I'd have wanted to have both lawsuits ready to go simultaneously. | dpkonofa wrote: | What do you mean by that? The rules apply to Amazon just the | same as to anyone else. | adamdusty wrote: | Do they? All in app purchases have to be made through Apple's | payment system. If you can buy amazon prime through the app | then Apple should be taking a 30% cut. They might already do | that, I have no idea, but it seems unlikely Amazon would | agree to it. | csunbird wrote: | Delivery of physical goods and services are allowed to have | other means of payment, I think. | drawkbox wrote: | Exactly, there are "Reader" apps that Apple has at 15%, | these are video platforms, books and more which Amazon | falls under. Amazon Prime Video, Netflix, Dropbox, | Audible, Spotify and others also fall under this | category. | | All of this is described clearly in their information. | [1] | | "3.1.3(a) "Reader" Apps: Apps may allow a user to access | previously purchased content or content subscriptions | (specifically: magazines, newspapers, books, audio, | music, and video). Reader apps may offer account creation | for free tiers, and account management functionality for | existing customers." [2] | | Additionally, Apple also allow small business at 15%. | | "Keep 70% of your sales proceeds (85% if you're enrolled | in the App Store Small Business Program) and 85% for | qualifying subscriptions." [3] | | [1] https://www.apple.com/app-store/ | | [2] https://developer.apple.com/app- | store/review/guidelines/ | | [3] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/features/ | Wowfunhappy wrote: | And yet video rental platforms from Google and Disney | (Renting Mulan on Disney Plus cost extra) aren't allowed | to bypass Apple, whereas Amazon can. | | Even if there was something very specific about Amazon's | implementation that allowed them to bypass the rule--at | what point is it fair to acknowledge the rule was | specially crafted for Amazon? What if the policy had an | exemption for "Companies that begin with 'A' and end with | 'zon'"? | drawkbox wrote: | Google Movies and Disney+ can be watched on their app | though. They are still "reader" apps. | | Buying/renting you can go via their site and I bet they | prefer that for at least Google. They get all that | customer info and no cut needed. | | Any previously purchased items are available on the apps | it is just in-app purchasing is usually turned off to | prevent the iOS 15% cut for "reader" apps. They could | have it on and available to use Apple's Appstore to | rent/purchase but the in-app purchasing fees apply | 15%/30% depending on the content and app classification. | | Pretty easy to just purchase online and then watch in the | app. | | Games will always be 30% most likely because iOS is a | gaming platform as well and that matches other gaming | store cuts. | | Even Tencent was 55% at one point for MyApp, they came | down to 30% inline with other markets in 2019. Tencent | MyApp is a competitor to Appstore in China, both | companies make about $16B on their stores in revenues. If | anything Apple/Google/Steam/etc all forced Tencent MyApp | to come down to 30% from 55%. So things could be worse. | Cuts prior to app stores were in the 60-70% range for | gaming which was absurd. | | Epic Game store is 12% (was previously 30% but they | lowered to compete on price) which Tim Sweeney has said | profitability is around 7-8% but they only allow in games | that you have a deal with them. They don't allow just any | game to be sold which adds lots of additional cost. | Apple, Google, Steam etc all allow in any game which is | good as long as it meets their ToS. Mobile really opened | up gaming markets and that is industry standard now. | Apple/Google even forced Steam to open up about 5 years | after the mobile stores appeared. | | My guess is break even for stores is about 10-15% if you | have a more open market for all, part of that is keeping | the stores/games secure from malware and payment info | protected. That is why Apple was willing to go to 15% for | small business and does for "reader" apps. They aren't | making a ton of profit on those. | adamdusty wrote: | I wouldn't consider amazon prime a physical good or | service. | dpkonofa wrote: | You can't buy Amazon Prime through the app. What people are | referring to is the fact that _existing subscriptions_ are | allowed to renew without the 30% cut. People are misframing | that as an exception for Amazon even though there are | several platforms in the same situation that already | benefit from the same policy that Amazon now agrees to. | Wowfunhappy wrote: | Actually, I'm referring to the fact that Amazon Prime | members can _rent digital videos_ without Apple getting a | cut. See the Verge article kevingadd posted below. | dpkonofa wrote: | You weren't the person that I responded to so, frankly, I | don't care what _you 're_ referring to. | | Additionally, movie rentals are already covered by a | prior agreement. The article you mention even says that | Canal+ and other video services were already using this | which is an option where you can allow purchases tied to | an _existing subscription payment method_ if you also | allow for those purchases in the iTunes Store and | _integration into the Apple TV app_. | | There was no special deal for Amazon and trying to | present it that way, is, imo, disingenuous. How can it be | a special deal for Amazon if it existed prior to Amazon's | app changes and other platforms were already making use | of it? | adamdusty wrote: | I figured you were right, so I just signed up for prime.. | through the app, and it didn't use the play store payment | system, so Google isn't taking a cut. | | Again, I have no idea what is possible on the Apple | version, but I have subscriptions on other apps that go | through the play store payment system. I'm not an expert | on app store policies for payments, but I don't use any | other apps that have subscription payment that don't go | through the play store. I have a LastPass subscription | which I purchased through their website, specifically | because you have to go through the play store if you get | it through the app. | Wowfunhappy wrote: | I'm pretty sure on the Play Store, only games are | required to use Google's payment method. (Others can | optionally choose to of course.) | | On iOS though, apps need to use Apple's payment system | for _any_ digital good. _Unless_ you 're an Amazon Prime | member renting a video. | kevingadd wrote: | Amazon got a special carve-out after a long dispute with | Apple. | | https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/3/21206400/apple-tax- | amazon-... | | This provides additional weight to Epic's arguments. They | have repeatedly said they don't want a special deal for | Fortnite, they want every developer to have access to either | alternate distribution methods or a smaller cut. | dpkonofa wrote: | That's not a special deal, though. Just because a reporter | didn't know about doesn't mean it was special for Amazon. | Your own article even mentions other providers that were | already using that and, most importantly, it only applies | _to renewals of existing subscriptions that were started | outside the app_. It can 't be exclusive to Amazon if other | platforms are also already taking advantage of that same | process. | | New purchases follow the same 30/15 rule as every other | developer. | Wowfunhappy wrote: | I'd say a video rental is a new purchase. The customer | may already be subscribed to Amazon Prime, but they're | paying additional money to watch that specific video. | dpkonofa wrote: | Video rentals are already covered by an agreement that | existed prior to the change in the Amazon app. The | article you posted even mentions that Canal+ and other | video services _were already using this_ which is an | option where you can allow purchases _tied to an existing | subscription payment method_ if you also allow for those | purchases in the iTunes Store and integration into the | Apple TV app. | Wowfunhappy wrote: | > The article you posted even mentions that Canal+ and | other video services were already using this | | So why isn't Youtube allowed to use this for their video | rentals, if the user has a credit card on file in their | Google account? Why did Apple only offer it to a tiny | number of companies, and only one major player? | pjmlp wrote: | Good luck, iDevices are a very tiny portion of European mobile | market. | | Looking forward to the EpicOS Phone, running yet another SDL/Qt | variant. | drinkcocacola wrote: | If I were a mobile phone manufacturing company, I won't call | 30% of European market a "tiny portion". | pjmlp wrote: | True, but it makes it irrelevant for Epic baby cries from law | point of view. | oaiey wrote: | Especially considering that the iPhone is an enabler for all | other Apple devices. | wwtrv wrote: | According to StatCounter it's ~30% while it's two times smaller | than in the US (~60%) I wouldn't say it's "tiny". | pjmlp wrote: | Not enough for "monopolies". | detaro wrote: | Neither the article nor any of the comments you reply to | use the word you quote. | pjmlp wrote: | I know, Epic is trying to dodge its use in an vain | attempt to actually have a case. | detaro wrote: | Antitrust is wider than monopolies, so it totally makes | sense that they are not talking about that, and weird to | insist on the term. (and no, I don't think they have a | particularly high chance of actually getting anywhere | useful with this) | enragedcacti wrote: | You seem to really know a lot about EU laws and | regulations, where did you get your law degree? | pjmlp wrote: | The same place as everyone else thinking that Epic has a | case. | DiabloD3 wrote: | Even so, Apple has gotten far more whacks for violating EU law | than anyone else in this space. | | Not only that, winning a case against a company in EU over | antitrust often bolsters your defense in the US due to courts | preferring to hear about established case law by other courts | with similar laws. | NovemberWhiskey wrote: | > _Even so, Apple has gotten far more whacks for violating EU | law than anyone else in this space._ | | What are you referring to here? Antitrust? If so, please | provide some pointers. There're a lot of cases, not aware of | many wins. | metiscus wrote: | Note that I am not asserting that Apple has more than | anyone else, that would require more research than this. | What I have found in recent history is one major case from | France: | | Apple fined 1.23 Billion for Price-Fixing in France | https://venturebeat.com/2020/03/16/apple-fined- | record-1-23-b... | | Apple also has 4 open Antitrust investigations (all opened | on the same date and likely interrelated) going on in the | EU (irrespective of actions that members may be taking): | | https://ec.europa.eu/competition/elojade/isef/case_details. | c... | | https://ec.europa.eu/competition/elojade/isef/case_details. | c... | | https://ec.europa.eu/competition/elojade/isef/case_details. | c... | | https://ec.europa.eu/competition/elojade/isef/case_details. | c... | NovemberWhiskey wrote: | So, to be clear, there's no successful antitrust | prosecution of Apple under EU law, nor one that relates | to iOS or the App Store. | | On the other hand, there is a EUR4.34bn fine for Google | for market abuses relating to bundling of Google services | in Android, as well as a EUR2.4bn fine for favoring | Google Shopping in its search product, and a EUR1.4bn | fine for abusive practices in Google AdSense. | halostatue wrote: | > Apple has gotten far more whacks... | | [citation required] | T-A wrote: | 31% in Europe, much more in some markets (54% in Sweden): | | https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/europe | | https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/sweden | pjmlp wrote: | Which doesn't matter when talking about monopolies and such. | holstvoogd wrote: | Epic needs to sit this one out honestly. They are only doing this | because "we didn't get a special deeeeeaaalll :'(" | | Apple needs to get their head out of their asses and fix this | before governments do. I will probably own apple devices for the | rest of my life, but this kind of behaviour is damaging in the | long run. Look at MSFT. | | At least iPhones dont come with a non-removable fortnite | installer on the homescreen and 5k google spyware apps.. | ralmidani wrote: | I avoid being a persistent fanboy/hater toward any company, and | try to consider each case on its merits. Some of the concerns | regarding multiple app stores on the device (which raises issues | of security, privacy, and even storage space) are valid. But they | fail to address a huge problem: Apple's draconian policy on in- | app purchases. If IAP were to be opened up and become more | competitive, I might stick with Apple's just for security and | convenience, but the alternatives would be there, and I | personally wouldn't mind a lack of alternative app stores. | | Edit: to clarify, I'm saying I wouldn't mind having one app store | if Apple's stranglehold on IAP could be relaxed (whether by | choice or by law). | | Another edit: Apple could also allow one-off sideloading, but not | allow an app to install other apps (i.e. become a separate app | store). This would be a win-win for consumers. Assuming that's | who everyone cares about, of course. | cesarvarela wrote: | I think if you open up what you want you lose the security and | convenience that would make you stick with Apple too. | zionic wrote: | I doubt any significant volume of people who sell their | iPhones and go android if Apple allowed other app stores. | lowbloodsugar wrote: | But the reverse is true. If there were only Android like | phones, with shitty malware, and battery issues, and fifty | different app stores for any given genre, and Apple | launched the iPhone, millions would jump ship to Apple. | nxc18 wrote: | Of course not. Not immediately. Just like you wouldn't move | cities if the police announced they'd no longer enforce | traffic laws or investigate/attempt to prevent gun | violence. | | Then after the homicide rate doubles, there's shootings | almost daily, and you can't get from point A to point B | without a reckless driver risking your life, you might get | stressed. | | At first you'd consider moving to the suburb, but you | can't, because Epic's lawsuit applied internationally and | nationally, so actually no community is allowed to police | itself in any way (Epic also sued Google for Google Play | and I really don't get why no one on HN is capable of | remembering or considering that). And then you'd think, "if | I can get murdered here or I could get murdered there, | might as well save on rent". And so, Epic has succeeded in | destroying a large part of what makes the iPhone unique. | joshuaissac wrote: | How exactly would opening up app purchases on the iPhone | to competition bring about the scenario that you | describe? | | You gave an example with reckless driving and homicides | but it is not clear how that applies to app store | competition. | malka wrote: | Should we force Nintendo as well to allow people to side load | apps ? Because I don't see the difference with Apple. | wazanator wrote: | There's a big difference between a personal cell phone that you | use every day of your life and might be your only computer and | is advertised as such and an entertainment console. | | That said I agree and think Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft | should have to open up their platforms for side loading. | 7786655 wrote: | Yes. | billysielu wrote: | Does Apple pay tax on that 30% to the EU for sales in the EU? | kmlx wrote: | well apple cannot pay tax to a group of institutions that don't | have any business collecting taxes. | | and this is because taxes are national matters. the EU can try | some legal ways of forcing some countries to take more or less | tax, but all of those tries are not only being litigated, but | also pushed against by the national governments. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-02-17 21:00 UTC)