[HN Gopher] Over 140k virus species in the human gut, half of wh...
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Over 140k virus species in the human gut, half of which are new to
science
Author : majkinetor
Score : 105 points
Date : 2021-03-08 18:19 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.sanger.ac.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.sanger.ac.uk)
| war1025 wrote:
| I read the book "Never Home Alone" [1] a year or two ago, which
| is about all the different microbes and insects and such that are
| in the environment around us.
|
| One of the things the author mentioned a few times is to never
| assume that something you find around your house has been
| cataloged or studied before. There are relatively few scientists
| who study such things.
|
| One of the anecdotes was that someone the author knew discovered
| two or three new species of insect just by going out into his
| backyard and looking around.
|
| [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39088985-never-home-
| alon...
| robotnikman wrote:
| I've always wondered this myself, how many bugs in my own
| backyard have never been studied or classified? When you
| include microscopic organisms, it is definitely in the many
| thousands.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| Hypothesis: general anti-virals (i.e. something that kills most
| viruses, rather than being fine-tuned to a specific virus) will
| have the unintended consequence of killing viruses which prey on
| bacteria in our gut microbiome. That, in turn, will alter the
| balance of bacteria in our gut, leading to (slow-to-appear) major
| health issues. All somewhat similar to the autoimmune and
| allergic issues resulting from overuse of antibiotics.
|
| Just a hypothesis. But the number of viruses in the gut, the vast
| majority of which we know nothing about, does reveal an awful lot
| of room for unintended consequences.
| NotSammyHagar wrote:
| Almost certainly the case, for the well known issue you mention
| of antibiotics. A more interesting question to me is when we'll
| be replenishing people's viral biome and bacterial one too.
| There are these recent studies trying to fix intestinal issues
| by taking one person's ... well crap and sharing it with others
| to replenish their biome
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant
| LinuxBender wrote:
| A bit more than a hypothesis. There are numerous scientific
| studies on nih.gov about this topic. I don't have their links
| handy, but I have run across them when researching gut health.
| I find it is easiest to search their site using google. e.g.
| "site:nih.gov some topic" in google works best with them.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| Do we have any general anti-virals? Seems like the few anti-
| virals we do have are pretty targetted towards certain types of
| viruses.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| Up until this point, we have mostly just had broad-spectrum
| antibiotics, not antivirals. But, partly because of You Know
| What, they are getting a lot more attention lately: https://b
| logs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/03/04/mo...
| [deleted]
| thebean11 wrote:
| That's assuming that these species won't just be eventually
| reintroduced through food, air, human interaction etc.
| ddingus wrote:
| I had this happen with a strong antibiotic and a longer than
| usual course.
|
| My gut has seen a lot from various parts of the world. It's
| like starting over.
|
| The more places I revisit, the better things have become.
|
| But yeah, significant changes. Ahem... lots of irregularity,
| as if many foods were new. (and in a sense they were)
|
| The reintroduction idea is valid IMHO, based on some of my
| own experiences.
| weaksauce wrote:
| I'm a fan of having some lacto fermented foods in my diet
| on the regular. seems to help with promoting a nice gut
| biome but that's just an anecdote. worst case kombucha and
| kimchi are tasty.
| ddingus wrote:
| I do this too, though I do not find either of the k's
| particularly tasty.
| weaksauce wrote:
| I am a big fan of sour things so maybe that's why I like
| the taste. homemade kimchi is a lot tastier than the
| commercial stuff too.
| Zenst wrote:
| An experience I had relating to medications and the stomach: I
| had salmonella food poisoning, week later I'm better and then I
| get a call from doctor who had got tests back saying I had
| salmonella and was insistent I take this medication ciproxin. I
| questioned it as was feeling better. Anyhow took the medication
| that turned out to be broad-spectrum and it killed all the
| bacteria et all in my stomach. Week of shitting like a baby
| (green) and was worst that second week and had gone back to
| work, yet ended up off ill again. Since then had issues with
| stomach, mood, even tendons and few other aspects and went from
| sporty type to not being able to do any sports.
| hammock wrote:
| Yeah cipro kills everything. I used to carry a script for it
| while traveling in case of emergencies.
| [deleted]
| graeme wrote:
| Ciprofloxacin? It has a black box warning from the FDA.
| Specifically for tendon issues.
|
| " Fluoroquinolones, including CIPRO(r), are associated with
| an increased risk of tendinitis and tendon rupture in all
| ages. This risk is further increased in older patients
| usually over 60 years of age, in patients taking
| corticosteroid drugs, and in patients with kidney, heart or
| lung transplants (see WARNINGS). Fluoroquinolones, including
| CIPRO, may exacerbate muscle weakness in persons with
| myasthenia gravis. Avoid CIPRO in patients with known history
| of myasthenia gravis (see WARNINGS)."
|
| https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2013/01.
| ..
|
| All the quinolones also associated with lots of internet
| reports of ill health in a variety of respects, but
| tendinitis is the official warning.
|
| Actually I see there is an updated warning about central
| nervous system damage now too. FDA recommends they only be
| used as a last resort.
|
| Sorry you had that experience. I had Cipro about ten years
| ago, wasn't really necessary. Can't say for sure it did
| anything but my reaction was intense while on it, and I had
| much worsened general digestion and overall health after that
| point.
|
| https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-
| upda...
| tristor wrote:
| I was prescribed Ciprofloxacin for traveler's diarrhea when
| I was traveling internationally for an extended period of
| time. I knew it was some hardcore stuff, so I didn't use it
| until it was a last resort. A single dose, and within 40
| minutes I was experiencing neurological effects. I called a
| nurse-on-call and was told to discontinue. No permanent
| effects I know of, but it basically gave me temporary
| dementia. Definitely a medication that should come with
| stronger warnings. I know it's the only valid treatment for
| anthrax infections, but for general use it should not be
| prescribed.
| avgDev wrote:
| I also had the pleasure of taking cipro about 10 years ago.
| Since, then I have met hundreds of people. Symptoms of
| adverse reaction include depression/anxiety, tendon/muscle
| pain, tendon ruptures, vision issues, such as visual snow
| and floaters. These issues are widely underreported as
| negative symptoms may show up even up to 12 months after
| medication was stopped.
|
| I have seen 40+ physicians at Mayo, Rush and other popular
| hospital networks, only one doctor said it's a possibility.
| Others outright dismiss it and look for alternative
| diagnosis.
|
| However, there are some recent discoveries and theories.
| There was a study which found DNA adducts from cipro,
| others are looking at mtDNA and collagen issues.
|
| For anyone reading please research any flouroquinolone
| antibiotic before taking them. It is A SERIOUS medication
| and not like other antibiotics.
|
| The worst part of FQAD (Flouroquinolone Associated
| Disability) as it is a thing now, there is ZERO tests to
| confirm it. If it happens to you, you will be dismissed and
| ignored by the medical community. I know doctors,
| pharmacists who had a negative reaction and were outright
| called crazy by their colleagues. An optometrist who was
| quite outspoken was dropped by some insurance companies as
| this view is "controversial". Many older flouroquinolone
| antibiotics have been taken off the market completely due
| to severe adverse reactions.
| zabzonk wrote:
| 1 point by zabzonk 1 minute ago | edit | delete [-]
|
| You could probably sue him. Antibiotics should only be
| prescribed for salmonella food poisoning (and almost all
| similar gut problems) in severe cases - normally all you have
| to do is keep hydrated and you will get over it. Otherwise
| you run the risk of introducing antibiotic resistance, so
| such treatments may become ineffective in severe cases.
|
| Not a medic. Used to be a microbiologist.
| zabzonk wrote:
| > keep hydrated
|
| And I should have said, keep your electrolytes up.
| whitehouse3 wrote:
| I saw an emergency doctor for a bad upper-respiratory
| infection (coughing blood) and was prescribed Augmentin for
| 10 days. It abolished the lung issue but wiped out my gut
| bacteria and gave me severe IBS-D.
|
| That was seven years ago. I was forced to quit my job. I
| couldn't travel at all, even across town. I became dreadfully
| sick with even light physical exertion. After five years of
| every test, diet, medication, and therapy available to me I
| was prescribed medication (eluxadoline) which is effective,
| but costs me $24,000/year and is not covered by insurance. I
| still have flare-ups once a month but at least I can ride my
| bicycle again.
|
| I wish I could sue the doctor who stole my twenties from me.
| But I stand no chance in court.
| mettamage wrote:
| I don't know why precisely this story but it left a bit of
| an impact. I'm sorry for your lost twenties. I hope you can
| make the best of it.
| gojomo wrote:
| If your hunch that the antibiotics' effects on your gut
| bacteria was the cause is correct, have you considered a
| fecal microbiota transplant to restore a healthier mix?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant
| whitehouse3 wrote:
| Yes! In 2019, the experimental medicine department at my
| local university hospital started scheduling FMT
| procedures. They're suspended now because of COVID-19
| restrictions (much like dentists and optometrists). But
| I'm in the queue. Somewhat awkwardly, I am responsible to
| nominate a suitable donor.
| im3w1l wrote:
| What about diy?
| virtue3 wrote:
| You should get a family member from what research I did
| into IBS and fecal transplants as a possible cure.
| gojomo wrote:
| I don't know where you are, but with so many medical
| workers now vaxxed in US, my impression is hospitals/etc
| are mostly eager to catch up on delayed non-pandemic
| procedures.
|
| If your own nearest option is still slow or requires a
| personally-nominated donor, other providers offering the
| freeze-dried pills, perhaps even via telemedicine, might
| be an option. Good luck!
| Demigod33 wrote:
| I wonder whether its possible to transplant the bacteria
| out before such a treatment and introduce them again
| later..
| castlecrasher2 wrote:
| >went from sporty type to not being able to do any sports
|
| Can you elaborate on this? I'm curious as to the general
| details.
| Zenst wrote:
| Sure, used to do kendo and professional swimming and was
| doing paint-ball tournament level. That all ended due to
| tendon issues, and also much lowered energy levels.
| lliamander wrote:
| A coworker of mine had long term health issues from taking a
| powerful antibiotic. He changed his diet to only include "non
| gut fermenting food" (not sure what that includes) and his
| issues went away.
|
| His issues were different than yours, but I think it was the
| same antibiotic. In any case, worth considering a dietary
| change.
| Darkharbourzz wrote:
| Have you researched fecal transplants? I've seen some
| evidence to suggest they can restore a microbiome after e.g.
| chemotherapy or broad-spec antibiotics.
| azinman2 wrote:
| There were some studies going on in the US for various IBD
| issues but they ended them after several people got life-
| threatening infections.
| Zenst wrote:
| I became aware of them watching a documentary upon Hitler
| many years ago - he was a fan of them apparently. Though
| wasn't aware at the time and quick dig shows it's not
| something the health service in the UK offer even today.
| Alas I can't afford private health care and not had great
| experiences with doctors, indeed any dealing been disaster
| on some level that I won't go thru them as it will just
| depress the hell out of me though the one when the a doctor
| said the stitches I'd had done was the worst job he'd seen
| in his entire life and he was a field medic during WW2,
| kinda gives an idea.
|
| But certainly as a treatment - it has merit and wished was
| explored more. Just wished known about it at the time.
| wingspar wrote:
| Have a family member who has had to take antibiotics in
| various occasions, including cipro. She takes probiotics
| (pills and probiotic yogurt) after each antibiotic. Don't
| know if it works but seems to keep diarrhea at bay, and help
| with 'brain fog'
| stunt wrote:
| Yes, mankind got advance enough to study it, but ended up
| spending all its money on celebrities and building stuff that
| nobody really need.
|
| I wonder how anyone is able to study them while making skin care
| products that never work are more profitable than vaccine
| research.
|
| You read history and wonder why many emperors wasted their
| resources on building palaces with gold, but we're even more
| inefficient today if you compare our resources and population.
| It's more attractive for kids to become an influencer than a
| scientist today and probably it always has been just like this.
| option wrote:
| I currently decided to give this startup
| https://www.thryveinside.com/ a try since they claim to help
| improve your gut microbiome. Anyone tried them before? Hard to
| asses how scientifically sound their offering is.
| m3kw9 wrote:
| This is why the body is so hard to understand because all these
| viruses like have multiple feedback loops with each other or with
| groups.
| ericra wrote:
| For those interested in the topic of microbes living in/on our
| bodies, I highly recommend Ed Yong's book I Contain Multitudes:
|
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27213168-i-contain-multi...
|
| He is a fantastic writer, and I really enjoyed the book. You
| might also be familiar with his COVID articles for The Atlantic,
| which were some of the best coverage of COVID issues throughout
| 2020.
| erikig wrote:
| Thanks for sharing. I'm intrigued by the topic but every time
| I've tried to find some good reading material, I've found
| myself going down some pseudo-science rabbit holes.
| psychiatrist24 wrote:
| OMG, what if one of them MUTATES?
| fsckboy wrote:
| bacteria species living in the human gut makes sense to me.
|
| But what does it mean for a virus species to be located in the
| human gut? constantly reinfecting new stomach cells as they are
| generated? infecting the bacteria in the gut?
|
| edit: I saw another comment recommending "I Contain Multitudes"
| so I figured I search it for "virus" (thanks libgen) and found
| this:
|
| "There are viruses too, in unfathomable numbers - a "virome" that
| infects all the other microbes and occasionally the host's
| cells."
| retrac wrote:
| As the article says, they're bacteriophages, viruses which
| primarily infect the bacteria.
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