[HN Gopher] Is a long-dismissed forgery the oldest known Biblica... ___________________________________________________________________ Is a long-dismissed forgery the oldest known Biblical manuscript? Author : diodorus Score : 83 points Date : 2021-03-13 18:06 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com) | prox wrote: | Is there a translation of the text anywhere? Search just brings | up alternatives for this news article. | quercusa wrote: | If this sort of thing interests you, check out _Veritas: A | Harvard Professor, a Con Man and the Gospel of Jesus 's Wife_ by | Ariel Sabar. Interesting story and a great read - just when you | think you understand it, a new layer appears. | benjohnson wrote: | "And in a 2018 scholarly article, he used similar approach to | advance a startling claim: that an earlier version of Leviticus, | rather than forbidding sex between men, had actually permitted | it." | | I'm a poor scholar of the ancient Jewish faith, but explicit | permission of male on male sexual intercourse in the five books | seems a bit of a stretch. | | While I'd like to judge the merits of this man's claims, this has | echos of the whole "Jesus wife" fiasco of seeking attention by | being edgy. | svat wrote: | (Disclaimer: I have no interest in this matter; my interest | here is only in the structure of the argument.) | | If you follow the link to the 2018 "startling claim" | (https://archive.is/QAa5x), what's presented there is not a | claim of "explicit permission" as you say, but a reasoning from | the principle that "For example, a sign declaring an office to | be closed on Sundays suggests that the office is open on all | other days of the week". (That is, in that article Idan | Dershowitz suggests that an earlier version of Leviticus 18 | forbade homosexual _incest_ , which if true would in turn lead | to the conclusion that homosexuality wasn't forbidden _in | general_.) | R0b0t1 wrote: | I have also seen it construed the original prohibition was | against pedastery as practiced by the Greeks, not | homosexuality in general. | [deleted] | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | Guilt by association does not mean Dershowitz is necessarily | being duped. | leth_dev wrote: | Hypothesis: the physical medium was a forgery, but the text was | not. In other words: it was a copy of a genuine manuscrit. That | would explain why the physical scroll appears to be an obvious | forgery containing, retrospectively, a perplexing text. | marshmallow_12 wrote: | your qualifications for presenting an hypothesis are... | marshmallow_12 wrote: | and why has this one been flagged? are there some people here | who just enjoy flagging every single mildly controversial thing | i say? (yes. this one will only get [CENSORED] since they will | feel too foolish to flag...) | [deleted] | snambi wrote: | Its probably a hoax. | rrll22 wrote: | Google Translate: | rrll22 wrote: | And he said unto them, Send me, I pray thee, into the river | Will help and be captured naat] forest and sit in the atri | cities. And the king of Bashan went out to meet him at Salah | And they beat him until he had not left him Where the whole | rabbit cable woke up in hot trouble Their door and bohemian Mad | and all the cities of Mishar and all of Gilad and all of Bashaz | Ad Selka and Edrei .... Eretz Rafam ... Nam Is that the cloud | of the king of Bashan Titar Harpas remains. He turned and drove | off and sat down in front of Bat Pe'a. And went out At that | time you built a father and women of state towards you And call | upon [them] to eat their altar and eat their altar And drink of | their form, and worship them, and worship them The women of the | state and you will cling to a person with a gap that day And | let them also be angry with you and win over you at the same | time That sieve of Nadla and peace from you I will breathe for | bread The state and the stain you with the sword and sat From | them the slaughter will be very much and the sieve will stop. | And I commanded them at that time to teach you Hakam and their | trial to do in the land which they passed through Her name is | her. Take care you do not add to His commandment and you shall | not be deprived of it. Save your money Forget it and make a | statue for yourself and appoint a pattern Every symbol whose | name resounds in the land Stretches and which basses | underground. And hera Epic in you and I chased the) as soon as | Metz This benefit land. Knowledge. .. today you will save. His | statutes and commandments to drive will be better for you (and | for him) Prolong their days on the earth, which I will fight | for your God Gave you. Hear Israel Israel their God our God | | Other and love. I will fight your God with all your heart! And | with all your soul to Sad-Zad and be their thing God Which I | pluck today on your heart and you have memorized To your son | and you spoke to them on your Sabbath in your daughter and in | your walk. On the way and in your bed and in your bed and you | tied them to a sign. By you and were under your eye and a | reporter (Tam] For the deeds of your daughter and your value | because God has cut you off You swore with the sword on the day | of the crowd and I walked the beach I will fight and me (you) | .. .. at this time because you have been redeemed | | From the fire and not. . . . The echo to hand you a thing I | will be wise to say +. 11 4 1 1 | | and -... Hear Israel, you have passed today The Jordan to come | to the network of their nobles and themselves awake You grew up | and in hot trouble you will not say in your heart Most of these | hot Gentiles could not register no Look at them remembering | what God did To Pharaoh and to all their affliction, Yahweh | will do no harm Your enemy because their God is the past before | you fire ate. He will destroy them and destroy them tomorrow | before you> too The leprosy will be sent to them by God until | it is lost. | | The ghetto that remains in front of you is only fire and ash | His commandments and his law and his imitations which I am from | Jesus and you knew today that you are not in your righteousness | God Your God has given you the land of Hua to inherit it In me | with a hard decapitation from the heat that you came out. From | Egypt to Joses from Mesopotamia you orphaned them. God. By the | sword of the day I ascended the mountain to Kozat the The two | hydrangeas and the leaves were written by all of them The | testimony of God is with you on the Mount of Fire Bios | audience. . . . You whipped them and did You have a tormentor | and I will fall before God chooses Haber Kash ... And two damp | in my hand and see You have sinned and I will break the two | dampness before your eyes And I will pray for you at that time | four days And Arbaam Lela. And as incense and in mass and in | burial . The lust from Maram seals your God> while That one | said Elham Eli sculpted you two damp Their stone as rhesus and | ascended to me the mountain and the mountain. And two [sluggish | shooting. And God will smite them on the damp The ten things | which I will speak unto you in the mountain The crowd will be | disgusted with me and they are Baran Asher I did and sanctified | Barnea in saying to me God went up And they shall tread down | the earth from the top of your mouth to the gods of your God | And you did not go up and you did not hear easily and said | these To guard you and I will pray for you while standing on | the mountain Arba'am Yom and Arba'am Lela in Gadaks + Vishte. | God also at that time and did not corrupt you Bow down not in | your righteousness your God has given you power to do. Corps. . | . (Only the desire of God) in your father for love You have | chosen a creator after them from all the people + [Because | their God] your God is the God [!) Of their God And the lord of | the Lord God the man and the visible (he A] went and is the one | who did the magnification with you. And the visible. Your | father went down in peace | To their distress she was moved to | be a bone and a multitude of people - because but [If] we keep | the whole commandment which I have The mitzvah today is to make | Ahacham for love To walk in all his ways and in all his | imitation. And leave them. All the people who place all who | will brief all Runlchem. Bo - will not stabilize. I [Q) before | you is honest P: Your sharpness and whim will be all over the | land Ashner was briefed on it. See you have given before you | Today bless and curse the blessing if you hear Do not obey me | and imitate) and the curse if you do not hear And ye departed | from the way which I commanded you this day [And was. For God | hath brought them unto the land of Asher You came to her name | and gave the blessing On Mt. (Grom) and the curse on Mt. (What) | past the Jordan through the sun In the land of the Canaanites | we were destroyed. nlnl at. Elani shows up. And these will | stand on the candle Ebal] Rauchen and Bolen [And the Haggadah | which Dan and Naphtali. And these will stand on the harp Gross | Shemen and Judah and Issachar Menashe and Ephraim And Benjamin. | And the Levites stood against the mountain, and were smitten | And said with a loud voice [b) The soft man who will love Elham | Elerno and even to Baro will bow down and with him alone Will | pass and answer all the people] and said Amen> Bless | | Ha; there is one who will sanctify the seventh day and sit down | And all the people mocked him, and said, Amen. Blessed Haish] | Respect Abu and his mother and all the people answered and said | Amen. Bless [e) a man who will not sting or gamble Soul meadow | and answered artist. Bless the man who did not He shall defile | one another's wife, and they shall answer every one of them | Artist. Bless the man who will not [envy the other They | answered (all the people and said Am. B! Soft man Who will not | swear by [Q) who to lie and answer all the people | And said | Atan. Bless the man who will not deny And Lana will lie to one | another and all the people will answer and say Amen. Blessed | [the man] who did not raise his eye to H. [Razkesh The whole | people shuddered and answered and said Amen. The man's knee Who | will love Renezhu Nuenuz all the people and said Artist . Bless | the man who will establish all my words This warning to (Eshet) | and you and all the people answered And said Amen. And the | Levites gathered and answered [and said in-easy Ram Raf if he | hears you will easily hear your God preserve Then do all his | commandments and come upon you all Blessing God bless you you | burn bless you In the flesh you bless the tenach and the rest | you bless the fruit in your belly. And the fruit of thy ground | which dwelleth: | You are in Bach and Blessed are you when you | go out will God give you | Thy enemies shall swear before thee. | "In every deed of your hand, God will sanctify him for a holy | people and see. All the peoples of the earth and those who see | you will open their mouths to you The name to be monitored; | Your country is in trouble) Noim (many and nata to: a nat / | lova And be [up] and shall not be. [Lumta -> + What .... [a] | your daughter .- .. (The halzozom were converted to Panna (M. | Gogd Har Ebal and Yanuo Tiam) Ro (Bekel Renam] Arr HaNeich | Asher (Yesh / H. Panszel And Metka. The [Indian] act of | deafness was answered by all the people Nakru a) from r (r the | man a: a minister will do Craft on the seventh day to desecrate | and all the people answered And (Mero Amen A) Rer Makla Abu and | his mother answered All the people and said Amen. Arr hits each | other Secretly and answered all | | M and said Amen. Err The man who will approach all the rest of | his flesh and who. He shall commit adultery with another, and | shall marry with all Beast and all the people answered and said | Amen> Arr And all the people answered and said, Amen. Arr the | man who swears in my name to lie and answer All the people and | said Amen. Arr took a bribe To move Adushkar in his people and | all the people answered and said Artist. Arr the man who made a | goat to The wife of another and to his daughter and to his | foster-mother] and to all Which to him and all the people | answered and said Amen. Err The man who will hate the meadow in | his heart and answer all The people and said Essen. Arr the man | who did not Arise, all the words of the Lord. You and all the | people answered and said Amen. Winspo The Levites read aloud | and will say and was if not You will easily hear your God | [lesh: Mr. do all His commandment went out and all the curse | came upon you The goddess Arr you are burning and Ar [r] you | are in the wilderness Arar Netonach and the rest of you Arar | fruit in your belly | marshmallow_12 wrote: | I think the meaning of one or two of the words got lost in | transalation... | rrll22 wrote: | OCR + sentences divided in halves by \n + the usual Google | Translate | sorokod wrote: | Pretty sure rabbit cables were a big deal during late | bronze age. | camjohnson26 wrote: | You could probably start a cult with this if you want. | marshmallow_12 wrote: | ....a cult? Wow! Tell me how. I'm listening. | marshmallow_12 wrote: | why on earth was that comment flagged??? why? | bishop_mandible wrote: | Does Betteridge's law apply here? | tgv wrote: | Does it apply to your question? | | Anyway, such discussions continue until they are forgotten, not | because it arrived at a factual conclusion. | dragonwriter wrote: | > Does it apply to your question? | | Since it's it's a law _of headlines_ , and the question in | question is not a headline, no. | mahnouel wrote: | So where can I read the manuscripts? Is there an english | translation available? Searched for half an hour and didn't find | anything.. | dotancohen wrote: | They seem to have been lost over a century ago. There was no | interest in preserving them, as they were assumed to be | forgeries. | sb057 wrote: | Page 37 (PDF numbering) of this 1958 research paper reproduces | a version published in an 1883 issue of 'The Athenaeum': | | http://images.library.wisc.edu/WI/EFacs/transactions/WT1958/... | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | For anyone clicking through and scrolling to page 37: this is | in Hebrew, not English. I don't see an English translation | there. | dogma1138 wrote: | That's not Hebrew technically either it uses the Phoenician | alphabet or a variation of it. | | I can read the Dead Sea scrolls I can't read what ever this | is :( | marshmallow_12 wrote: | find any transalations into modern hebrew script? | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | ... or English? | camjohnson26 wrote: | The original fragments of this text are no longer available after | it was denounced as a hoax over 150 years ago. This researcher's | claims are mainly based on the content of the text, which he says | are echoed by later texts and have multiple coincidences. The | article says that the researchers who focus on Biblical text | origins are more convinced and the ones focused on physical | details of the documents are less convinced as they "contain all | the hallmarks of a modern forgery." The response is that the | transcriptions may not be accurate representations of the actual | fragment. | | It all seems very difficult to prove and the implications, a | version of the Torah with most of the laws removed, just a little | too convenient. Seems like healthy skepticism is warranted here. | trasz wrote: | Too convenient now, but back when it was discovered, it would | have been way more convenient if its contents fit the | mainstream consensus at that time instead. | gumby wrote: | First of all: the design meme of "scroll a page full to get one | page of text" must die. I'm trying to read an article not play a | fucking video game. | | I used reader mode and noe of that text was included but I assume | it was worthless. | dang wrote: | I agree but: | | " _Please don 't complain about website formatting, back-button | breakage, and similar annoyances. They're too common to be | interesting. Exception: when the author is present. Then | friendly feedback might be helpful._" | | https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html | neonate wrote: | https://archive.is/ojHPk | gandalfian wrote: | Assuming the biblical source to be fraudulent because it is | Jewish. You could really tie your brain in knots with that one | rossdavidh wrote: | I don't doubt that anti-Semitism had a role, but Shapiro had | been caught selling forgeries before, so it was not suspicion | based entirely on him being Jewish. | fortran77 wrote: | He was a "convert" to Christianity, so neither Jews nor | Christians were likely to trust him. | camjohnson26 wrote: | Like instances of historical Christian anti-semitism. Got some | news for you about Jesus... | [deleted] | gumby wrote: | What is the motivation for this: | | > Dershowitz's research, _closely guarded until now_... Scholars | who previewed his findings at a _closed-door seminar_ at Harvard | in 2019... | | Why the secrecy? | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | It is mentioned in the article. Dershowitz feared he might be | considered a crackpot until he had all the evidence together, | organized, and presentable at once. Revealing partial research | before he completed everything would make a less persuasive | case. | dang wrote: | There's also a cloak-and-dagger aspect to scholarship about | ancient manuscripts, especially scriptures, which pops up in | various stories here from time to time. Lots of intrigue, | theft, forgery, factions, and weirdness. Partly this has to | do with the overlap with the antiquities markets which are | more...colorful. | | The transparency and openness we tend to expect from academic | research is lacking. Sources are closely guarded, scholars | don't get to properly check each other's work, and drama | regularly ensues. | | Edit: I was trying to dig up an old thread about some such | weird controversy involving National Geographic, but my | memory has disintegrated into little parchment fragments. | Speaking of cloak-and-dagger, though, I did run across this: | | https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/history-and- | civilisatio... | hyperpape wrote: | That kind of environment strikes me as really unfortunate | and contrary to what I'd want to see out of academic work. | | Still, as I read your comment though, something popped into | my head: Andrew Wiles's secrecy when working on Fermat's | last theorem. | whakim wrote: | When I was a graduate student, one of my advisors tried to | steer me away from focusing on periods of history where | textual sources are/were more, shall we say, fluid. (In my | particular case, this was Warring States China - I ended up | pursuing early medieval Chinese literature so it was moot | anyways). The point here is that academic careers are made | or broken and some research is totally discredited while | other research gains more prominence on the back of the | vagaries of archaeological finds and determinations of | authenticity. Within that the world, the stakes are | _extremely_ high. | mtalantikite wrote: | Here is a link to the open access book that the scholar, | Dershowitz, published. His English translation begins on page | 156: | | https://www.academia.edu/45450947/The_Valediction_of_Moses_A... | neonate wrote: | https://archive.is/ojHPk | cybert00th wrote: | >"But Dershowitz makes an even more dramatic claim. The text, | which he has reconstructed from 19th-century transcriptions and | drawings, is not a reworking of Deuteronomy, he argues, but a | precursor to it, dating to the period of the First Temple, before | the Babylonian Exile. That would make it the oldest known | biblical manuscript by far, and an unprecedented window into the | origins and evolution of the Bible and biblical religion." | | That's fine, if that's what it turns out to be - a precursor to | the book of Deuteronomy. But let no one be so foolish as to claim | it as holy writ - that was settled a long time ago by the apostle | John. | InitialLastName wrote: | Yes, it would obviously be quite foolish to pretend that _that | specific_ bit of ancient manuscript is the unchallengable word | of god when that would controvert _some other_ bit of ancient | manuscript. | marshmallow_12 wrote: | except Jews don't accept him. so _you_ are the one that looks | foolish. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-03-13 23:00 UTC)