[HN Gopher] Show HN: CryptoTask - a 0% fee freelance platform po...
___________________________________________________________________
Show HN: CryptoTask - a 0% fee freelance platform powered by
blockchain
Author : VukT
Score : 112 points
Date : 2021-03-16 16:31 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (about.cryptotask.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (about.cryptotask.org)
| vmception wrote:
| This reminds me, I got contacted by a freelancing platform the
| other day that had a "token" too, it was called Braintrust.
|
| Their token didn't even trade because they were waiting to "go
| public" and I said "like, on the Nasdaq" and they said no, with a
| token sale of the token that doesn't exist yet. But their
| dashboard does give you a token which you cannot use and cannot
| withdraw, no different than points in CandyCrush. The people
| there genuinely believe in the token perk and blockchain aspect
| though, but don't seem to realize that it doesn't pass basic
| checkmarks of legitimacy which can be fixed by simply issuing it
| and throwing a liquidity pool o Uniswap like you guys did.
|
| They're also doubling as a placement agency and "sell yourself"
| platform.
|
| Leads me to believe they have no idea what they're doing,
| validated by reviews about them on other platforms.
| omarish wrote:
| Why do you need a token?
| slonso wrote:
| token is like company shares. revenue streams (such as escrow)
| are connected to token burning, effectively paying out
| dividends to token holders
| hanniabu wrote:
| Better control over tokenomics and incentive structure
| matkoniecz wrote:
| > 0% fee
|
| This is untrue. On landing page there is already
|
| > Fees are only up to 3%
|
| If you scroll to the diagram (
| https://thumb.tildacdn.com/tild3530-3537-4532-b434-373030613... )
| it shows 30% high fee.
|
| What is ironic given earlier
|
| > Pain points: Huge platform fees (30%+)
|
| I wonder how much goes to various hidden fees caused by
| blockchain inefficiency (gas? transaction fees)?
| dmautz wrote:
| I looked at the available writers on the platform. They all have
| broken english in their descriptions. I know it's hard to set up
| a marketplace but you might want to make sure your early
| providers have at least the bare minimum of skill someone would
| hire
| Rule35 wrote:
| It could be worth finding good performers from other sites and
| subsidizing them on the new platform to provide the initial
| pool.
| VukT wrote:
| This will change as we drive more freelancers to the platform.
| There's a review/rating system in place which will allow for
| quality of freelancers to show over time.
| verdverm wrote:
| Like how Upwork "works"?
| VukT wrote:
| There's an issue, where high quality freelancer, doesn't
| want to apply for low paying/quality jobs to build
| credibility on the platform. Potential solutions are in
| development - one having to do with a blockchain identity
| _hence the partnership with
| Hyperminehttps://cryptotask.medium.com/new-partnership-
| cryptotask-hyp... _
| fuckmeamadeus wrote:
| this is plain awesome, I've been looking for such platform with
| decent bc related jobs, I see there are quite a few, are there
| any restrictions to becoming a freelancer on the platform?
| geographical or otherwise?
| VukT wrote:
| Anyone who wants to work, can work. That's the idea behind
| platform. There are no restrictions whatsoever.
|
| I can provide personal example, where I couldn't find a work
| because I had to rely on third payment providers, who Serbian
| citizens, at the time I was 16 couldn't use. That was around 7
| years ago.
| VukT wrote:
| Here's quite technical but old whitepaper for anyone who's
| showing interest in CTASK and dispute mechanism
| https://drive.google.com/file/d/13zuCikwuh3Ns8fCEUYlU1YE_PnL...
| rawtxapp wrote:
| Nice to see different use cases, what's the advantage of paying
| with your token vs using a stablecoin for payment?
| VukT wrote:
| Successfully completed tasks are paid out in stablecoins, DAI
| being a primary example, as backbone of the CryptoTask is
| AEternity blockchain with DAI having highest liquidity on AE.
| CTask has a different utility and you may read about it at
| https://cryptotask.medium.com/ctask-token-utility-d4aac4ca69...
| Rule35 wrote:
| Good question. Nice to see that they prioritize stablecoins,
| it's what makes the most sense for general users. Anything that
| insists you use their utility token is showing you a red flag.
| [deleted]
| Grustaf wrote:
| What exactly is the role of the blockchain here?
| whoknew1122 wrote:
| It sounds cool. They're probably going to have ML and AI for
| their reputation system too.
| parhamn wrote:
| This looks really cool. Congrats on the launch!
|
| I've always wondered how blockchain companies consider branding
| around their tech vs their outcomes. Like there are a ton of
| great outcomes here for using blockchain tech, but I find
| "crpyto" products intimidating to use, even as a techy.
| VukT wrote:
| I see where you are coming from. Eventually, CryptoTask will be
| seen as a regular freelance platform with low fees and accent
| on security for onsite deals. Technology, which does scare away
| potential clients, provides that. In case of a dispute, you
| won't spend days / weeks resolving the issue, it'll be
| automated and the outcome will be decided by real users.
| jfk13 wrote:
| > it'll be automated and the outcome will be decided by real
| users
|
| I don't understand how both these things can hold. Unless the
| "real users" are automated?
| slonso wrote:
| Automated in the sense that there is no company resolving
| disputes, but are resolved in a decentralized manner by
| other users who are selected automatically
| artur_makly wrote:
| devil is in the details. you would need highly skilled
| and experienced arbitrators here for each vertical.
| leifg wrote:
| For me as a freelancer the fundamental question was always: "how
| much money will be in my bank account when I take this job". Yes
| there is risk of non payment and hidden fees that I don't
| anticipate but the main driver was the rate of the gig.
|
| I was not able to find that information on the platform looking
| at the jobs tab. Most of the value was "negotiable".
|
| But leaving that aside, it seems that "value" is not what will be
| in my bank account.
|
| And from the overview it seems like the fee is only 3% which
| implies I get to keep 97% of the money. But further down there is
| a diagram that puts "70%" next to "Freelancer" so I'm not even
| sure how much percent of a job I get.
| IncRnd wrote:
| I went to the site to look for cryptography related jobs. The
| shady postings without payment information, qualifications, or
| any other real information all made sense when I saw that the
| "crypto" was for cryptocurrencies.
|
| One post wanted someone to create a coin in a month, but the
| rate was "negotiable". Hucksters (the posters).
| zikzak wrote:
| Do you get most work through marketplaces like this or via
| people you wish have a connection with? I'm really interested
| in knowing if you could make a "good" living on these
| marketplaces if you want to sustain a middle class lifestyle as
| an adult with kids in Canada or the US (let's leave it the most
| expensive real estate regions). I briefly reviewed this space
| several years ago and didn't think it would pay enough to even
| remotely compete with more traditional employment, especially
| when you consider factors like "doing your taxes" and
| healthcare.
| acruns wrote:
| I am a full-time freelancer (cloud arc not dev). I started
| cold turkey last April when my firm lost tons of gigs. I
| started on market places and through that built relationships
| with other firms that didn't have a cloud architect and they
| have come back to me with additional work. I have also landed
| gigs through contacts. Once I got the ball moving it has been
| mostly non-stop. The taxes and insurance aren't as bad as you
| might think. The back end work of invoices, taxes, expenses,
| contracts, so on can all be managed in one app so it isn't a
| nightmare. It's nice to be able to spot concerning projects
| and turn them down as opposed to being forced into a project
| you know is going to be a nightmare. I bill @ 110/hr with no
| problem. It has also let me spend time giving away my
| services to some non-profits and startups. I don't think it's
| right for everyone but I enjoy it.
| rurp wrote:
| Thank you for sharing. I would love to know which app you
| use for invoices, contracts, etc.
| leifg wrote:
| In the meantime I stopped freelancing but I had 5 longer
| running gigs in total (+ a few shorter term gigs).
|
| All of these gigs I got through different channels.
|
| Only 1 was through a platform, but it was one of those higher
| playing platforms where you had to go through an application
| process which included building a project without being paid
| (I was living in the US while I was working through this
| platform)
|
| So in essence: I think it's possible but not on all
| platforms.
| ssijak wrote:
| The platform you are talking about is probably Toptal
| https://www.toptal.com#connect-unmatched-coders-now ?
|
| I work through them and am very satisfied. Though I do not
| live in the US, rates I can get through Toptal are much
| higher than local rates. And if you are from US you can set
| even higher rates. Also there are US only jobs. So I guess
| if you dont live in the expensive part of the US it is
| doable.
| [deleted]
| VukT wrote:
| We are about to resolve content quality issues in future
| updates. CryptoTask platform would take 0% if you don't use
| escrow system, giving you 100% of completed task value. If you
| decide to use an escrow system, platform would take 3% from
| total task value. About 70% - There's affiliate system, which
| allows for freelancer who can't find a job themselves, rely on
| a headhunter type of users, who'd connect freelancer with a
| client. 10% from the total task value goes to the platform,
| where 20% of the task value is meant for a headhunter. As both
| systems are still in development (development roadmap can be
| found no https://about.cryptotask.org/), percentage of task
| value going to headhunter could potentially be manually set.
| leifg wrote:
| I still don't get how the platform would take only 3% but I
| only get 70% of the value.
| VukT wrote:
| You'd get 97% of the job value if you use an escrow system.
| If you are a freelancer, who can't find a job and you rely
| on a headhunter, in that case you'd get 70% (which is to be
| discussed). If you don't use either of those, you'd get
| 100% of the job value.
| renewiltord wrote:
| They're value-added features:
|
| * You get 100% by default
|
| * To get escrow services, you pay 3% of that
|
| * If you want someone to find jobs for you, you pay 30% to
| them
| temp8964 wrote:
| I think this explanation makes more sense. The other
| explanation, although mathematically equivalent, sounds
| weird.
| cercatrova wrote:
| They just explained it, it's three different models:
|
| - keep 100% green you don't use their escrow system
|
| - keep 97% if you do use their escrow system
|
| - keep 70% if you need someone to find you jobs
| kulikalov wrote:
| I see that you have less than one job posted per day. Am I
| missing something?
|
| What price range are you aiming at? For instance, fiverr is for
| tiny gigs, upwork - for low to mid paying jobs. What is your
| range?
| VukT wrote:
| Jobs have no value limit as we don't depend on a third party
| payment providers and limitations which come with them. Our
| focus is on becoming the leading freelance platform for
| blockchain jobs. As for on platform activity you may follow it
| at
| https://www.aeknow.org/contract/detail/ct_X3szYGp5irejPsowXp...
| as current representation of listed jobs isn't accurate,
| because filled job positions get removed from the list. This
| will be addressed in the following updates. There's a Croatian
| section of the platform, as we acquired freelance.hr , with
| regional jobs.
| hanniabu wrote:
| Do you plan to move to Optimism when that launches this
| month? From what I understand, little to no changes are
| needed on your the codebase. You should be able to just use
| their compiler and deploy.
| kulikalov wrote:
| Can you run a quick query in your database and answer my
| questions?
|
| There are plenty of blockchain jobs out there on other
| platforms. Why should I invest time in your platform? I'm
| looking for short contracts that are paying over $200 per
| hour. Is this something your platform can offer?
| fuckmeamadeus wrote:
| I feel this one is growing fast, most of the good jobs get
| filled in 10 minutes, I've been following the activity for
| the past few hours...
| slonso wrote:
| you can apply to https://app.cryptotask.org/en/tasks/872 or
| https://app.cryptotask.org/en/tasks/869 ..yea the price in
| this case is set to negotiable, but on most platforms even
| if you have set price it is usually negotiated before work
| starts, so nothing different here. Also as mentioned, there
| is significant traction on Croatian section, international
| section will have more and more jobs as we are focusing on
| growth now, so great time to build reputation as a
| freelancer
| g00gler wrote:
| I'm interested in hearing about this too.
| woile wrote:
| This looks super nice!!
|
| How's the process for setting a task to "completed"? Can that be
| exploited? How does the Automated jury process work?
| VukT wrote:
| Here's a quote from a Forbes article: "With a review system
| like that of CryptoTask, reviewers are token holders that stake
| an amount equal to the task value that they are putting
| themselves forward for as a potential reviewer. It means that
| being a stakeholder, you already have a chance of being
| selected. That chance is directly proportional to that
| individual's stake, so this prevents sybil attacks.
|
| If they do, however, get randomly selected to be a reviewer and
| the task goes into dispute, they are required to cast a vote on
| whether or not they think the task was actually completed. If a
| reviewer votes against the consensus or does not vote at all,
| they do not lose any certain percentage of their staked amount.
|
| Some of the benefits of such a system include:
| Selection happens in secret to prevent reviewers from
| influencing the consensus through collusion. A two-
| stage voting process (secret commit and then reveal) means
| reviewers can't wait to see how other reviewers voted and then
| just go with the consensus. Reviewers would generally
| be professionals with a relatively large token stake and
| therefore in a good position to escalate and vote on a
| dispute."
|
| This would sum up dispute system with incentive for reviewers
| being 10% of the task value split among them.
| theamk wrote:
| Could you elaborate on this?
|
| > If a reviewer votes against the consensus or does not vote
| at all, they do not lose any certain percentage of their
| staked amount.
|
| Does that mean they don't lose anything? Or that they lose
| some amount, but that amount is not a simple fraction of
| staked amount?
| VukT wrote:
| As for the actual Forbes article I keep mentioning https://ww
| w.forbes.com/sites/davidpetersson/2018/10/27/the-p...
| Imnimo wrote:
| I was expecting the whitepaper to explain how the technology
| works, but it seems to just be a business plan with very little
| detail on what the system actually does.
| VukT wrote:
| Thank you for the feedback! We'll be updating onsite content
| ASAP.
|
| Here's a post containing two medium posts and additional
| explanation on backbone of the platform.
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26480748
| plumeria wrote:
| How does the automated jury work?
| VukT wrote:
| Here's a link to the reply I don't paste another wall of
| text: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26480945
| VukT wrote:
| Here is an old whitepaper with technical explanations
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26484040
| timdaub wrote:
| Hey,
|
| great job on the landing page, it looks good!
|
| Two questions:
|
| - How are you coping with expensive gas on main net right now?
|
| - Do you have a document describing how your token works on a
| technical level. Like a spec or so.
|
| Thanks and good luck!
| VukT wrote:
| There are a couple of medium posts describing technical
| background of the platform and token itself such as:
| https://cryptotask.medium.com/cryptotask-combines-defr-and-d...
| https://cryptotask.medium.com/technical-background-of-crypto...
|
| We are running on AEternity blockchain
| (https://aeternity.com/), making gas fees sufficiently low.
| There have been 19.5k transactions
| https://www.aeknow.org/contract/detail/ct_X3szYGp5irejPsowXp...
| and we are alive :)
| timdaub wrote:
| On AEternity! Wow, I've participated in their ICO back then.
|
| Thanks for the details, I'll take a look.
| hanniabu wrote:
| Ooof, didn't know you were running on AEternity. That in
| itself would be a no for me. I would definitely love to
| participate if there was a decision to move to ETH when
| Optimism is released.
| Rule35 wrote:
| Why? The blockchain technologically, the UI difficulty of
| another chain, or the currency?
| hanniabu wrote:
| Because of all innovation is happening on Ethereum, so
| yes I don't want to deal with the UX difficulty of using
| another chain. Also I wouldn't want to invest (both time
| and $) into a project on a 2nd rate platform. Not to
| mention it doesn't reflect well on the project to not
| consider the network effect nor the planned L2 solutions
| that are here to address scalability. I highly recommend
| looking into Optimism. I'm not sure what the difference
| of AE and ETH EVM is (forked?), but I know that if you
| have a project in Solidity then you can launch on
| Optimism with little to no changes (just use their
| compiler).
| vmception wrote:
| who cares? they are just dropping junk storage onto
| random blockchain enthusiast's computers for basically
| free instead of AWS and are clearly paying their talent
| with a token that trades on the Ethereum network via
| Uniswap. Would you even notice?
|
| You aren't a developer for them so you don't have to
| worry about Erlang, their token doesn't need an Aeternity
| wallet if it trades on Ethereum, and even if you do earn
| their token on the Aeternity blockchain they could just
| offer a bridge on their own website.
|
| Let me know if I missed something, how is this your
| problem?
| T0Bi wrote:
| Because on Ethereum, they could connect/be integrated
| with other projects. As most dapps are on Ethereum and
| the network effect is probably the most important factor
| in crypto, this will continue to be the case.
|
| Therefore it's highly unlikely that CryptoTask will ever
| have integrations with existing or potential new Dapps.
|
| This might not be relevant right now, but it certainly
| will be in the future.
| vmception wrote:
| We are talking about a freelancer marketplace dumping
| state data on random nodes and miners computers. What
| could possibly be the integration here?
|
| Their erc20 token on Ethereum can integrate with whatever
| you want
|
| I think people are conflating things
| imaginationra wrote:
| No Ethereum network- no go for me as well.
| vmception wrote:
| Their token trades on Uniswap so what difference does that
| make for you? Who cares where they dump their junk data?
| terhechte wrote:
| Not the author, but it should be possible for them to move to a
| Layer 2 solution soon. Examples are Optimism, Fuel, or
| Loopring. They're all still in beta though (I think)
| anonymouszx wrote:
| Hi. This looks interesting. Have you considered integrating with
| Kleros for dispute resolution? And if not, why not?
| slonso wrote:
| Kleros has some complexities that we dont need, while we need
| some things that Kleros doesnt have, ie potential reviewers are
| not necessarily just token holders, but other users with
| reputation above certain level etc.
| dgellow wrote:
| How does that work from a tax point of view? I guess you have to
| pay income tax when you receive the tokens for the job, then
| capital gain tax when you convert to USD/EUR?
| Rule35 wrote:
| For this sort of contractual work they'll probably bill and pay
| in an algorithmic stablecoin which is intended to track the
| dollar.
|
| Regardless of the taxable nature of such a thing (which may or
| may not be a security because it's designed _not_ to change
| value based on the actions of others) it should simplify the
| issue by at least not changing wildly from day to day.
| dgellow wrote:
| A stablecoin isn't different from other crypto assets from a
| tax point of view (at least in the US and Germany).
| Rule35 wrote:
| I don't think any of it has really been tested, but because
| two of the Howey test's four provisions are "with an
| expectation of profit" and "on the work of others" and
| don't seem to fit something intended to not create a profit
| it seems like there will be a significant difference in
| eventual treatment.
| rmah wrote:
| Whether the crypto you receive in compensation is
| considered a security or not will not matter from an
| income tax perspective in the US. If you were paid in
| stock, you would owe taxes on the compensation at the
| price of the stock at the time you received it. You might
| also be subject to capital gains tax if you sell the
| asset (stock or security-crypto) if you sell it with a
| cost basis calculated at the time you received it.
|
| IOW, if you got paid say 10 ETH, priced at $1800/ETH, you
| would owe income tax for $18,000 that year. It does not
| matter if you sell the ETH or not. It does not matter if
| ETH is considered a security or not. You pay taxes on the
| value of compensation whether the compensation is in USD,
| stock, ETH or chickens. If you subsequently sold the ETH
| for $2000/ETH, you would then owe capital gains taxes on
| 10 * (2000 - 1800) = $2000 of capital gains. Possibly
| short term, possibly long term depending on when you sell
| it.
| verdverm wrote:
| The IRS has a nice FAQ here
| https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-
| taxpayers/freq...
|
| Your analysis should be correct based on my understanding
| of the tax treatments
| nomy99 wrote:
| i signed up now I'm expecting moneys
| yowlingcat wrote:
| How do you handle fraud, feedback and dispute resolution?
| VukT wrote:
| At the moment - tasks are manually approved. This is bound to
| change as escrow system gets developed. You can find
| development roadmap found about.cryptotask.org Feedback is
| added with after a task is successfully completed, which over
| time would create high quality freelancers from ones who don't
| perform so well.
|
| As for the dispute system - I'll copy previously provided
| answer taken from Forbes article: "With a review system like
| that of CryptoTask, reviewers are token holders that stake an
| amount equal to the task value that they are putting themselves
| forward for as a potential reviewer. It means that being a
| stakeholder, you already have a chance of being selected. That
| chance is directly proportional to that individual's stake, so
| this prevents sybil attacks.
|
| If they do, however, get randomly selected to be a reviewer and
| the task goes into dispute, they are required to cast a vote on
| whether or not they think the task was actually completed. If a
| reviewer votes against the consensus or does not vote at all,
| they do not lose any certain percentage of their staked amount.
|
| Some of the benefits of such a system include:
| Selection happens in secret to prevent reviewers from
| influencing the consensus through collusion. A two-
| stage voting process (secret commit and then reveal) means
| reviewers can't wait to see how other reviewers voted and then
| just go with the consensus. Reviewers would generally
| be professionals with a relatively large token stake and
| therefore in a good position to escalate and vote on a
| dispute."
|
| This would sum up dispute system with incentive for reviewers
| being 10% of the task value split among them.
| yowlingcat wrote:
| Very cool. Although there's still challenge on the human side
| on /seeding/ the right high quality initial network, I can
| see something like this really being able to scale. The
| question of course is how well this conceptually scales with
| task complexity -- obviously, something like an Amazon MTurk
| task is one thing and probably the appropriate existing
| system for a system like this to supplant.
|
| With that said, how does this scale to handling more complex
| tasks that require more back and forth? There's the "fuzzy"
| area of problem solving as tasks get larger and less clearly
| defined. Is that out of scope for now to keep focus is on the
| low hanging fruit?
|
| I would love to see something like this completely deprecate
| MTurk and low wage Upwork.
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| This is pretty neat but can you help me understand the core
| difference between this and Braintrust? How are you making this
| easy/trustworthy for the demand side of the platform to use? My
| learnings from a few years in the space (for context, I was early
| at Gigster, then went to Germany to help build a freelance dev
| platform for the EU market and now am at Tribe.AI where we
| specialize in AI focused freelance work with a managed
| marketplace) is that at the high end especially clients and
| freelancers are willing to have huge premiums for middlemen that
| alleviate headaches, take risk off their own plates, and can
| better manage client relationships.
| [deleted]
| slonso wrote:
| There is a reputation system, so it is possible to see
| freelancer's history of past jobs and ratings. Also escrow can
| be used, so you wouldnt need to pay if job wasnt done according
| to specs. Dispute resolution being smart contract based is more
| transparent, and it is also great for ppl who prefer using
| crypto payments
| lxgr wrote:
| > 0% fee
|
| > Uniswap pair
|
| With current gas prices, this unfortunately seems like a
| contradiction.
| hanniabu wrote:
| Gas prices are a given so generally aren't listed as a fee
| since it's intrinsic to the network.
| georgyo wrote:
| Can you imagine if your bank charged you to write a check?
|
| I don't understand how people are okay with gas prices being
| a given.
| Rule35 wrote:
| Because gas is like the cost of the paper. I wouldn't want
| my bank selling a fancier cheque just to charge more, but I
| do expect to cover the costs of the necessary anti-fraud
| features, etc. Similar to the cost of the code to verify
| the transaction.
|
| But yes, it should be lower where possible. Both by code
| optimization and blockchain/architecture choices.
| remram wrote:
| When my bank says they're sending me a new checkbook for
| free, I definitely do not expect to pay the price of the
| paper or anti-fraud features. Do you?
| oarsinsync wrote:
| > Can you imagine if your bank charged you to write a
| check?
|
| My bank charges me to use an ATM, and to send international
| transfers, so it doesn't take a lot of imagination.
| hanniabu wrote:
| Network fees for blockchain are the equivalence of taxes.
| People aren't okay with taxes, but they're the price you
| need to pay to participate in the financial system.
| VukT wrote:
| Blockchain fees are always there. However, there are solutions
| - such as NEAR (near.org) who reduce them. They claim to have
| "10K x lower cost per transaction than Ethereum" Regular client
| wouldn't feel those.
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(page generated 2021-03-16 23:01 UTC)