[HN Gopher] Librem Tunnel Is Leaving iOS ___________________________________________________________________ Librem Tunnel Is Leaving iOS Author : Stephen304 Score : 111 points Date : 2021-03-16 16:59 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (puri.sm) (TXT) w3m dump (puri.sm) | pojntfx wrote: | It is still absolutely fascinating to me how we have arrived at a | point where in order to use one's own device properly, one has to | ask a US company nicely or be unable to do so - and people pay | money for it. On macOS, it is now impossible to distribute a VPN | or a virtualization software without permission from Apple. 30% | of the world's population would, if their government cut a deal | with Apple, be unable to install a certain app at the flip of a | button (check Spain's Catalonia referendum or Hong Kong, etc.). I | really do hope that some EU regulation will force device | manufacturers above a certain market size to allow a) sideloading | apps and b) allow different browser engines as boycotts seem to | no longer work after a certain amount of market penetration. | LeoPanthera wrote: | > On macOS, it is now impossible to distribute a VPN or a | virtualization software without permission from Apple. | | Citation needed? I don't believe this is true. Tunnelblick and | qemu both exist on macOS independently of Apple's approval. | nucleardog wrote: | Also would like a citation. Onboarding mac users at work is | "here's your .ovpn file, go install Tunnelblick and import | it, start connection, and go". | tgragnato wrote: | Tunnelblick uses OpenVPN under the hood, which means it's | using a TUN/TAP virtual NIC. | | LeoPantera is referring to the new way of creating VPNs in | macOS and iOS, the Network Extension framework. You need an | entitlement to develop with that framework, and sideloading | is not possible. | | https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension | | https://developer.apple.com/documentation/bundleresources/e | n... | | I have no idea if Apple is committed to support tun/tap in | the future, but I doubt. | alerighi wrote: | Well the Wireguard app exists both for macOS and iOS so I | guess is not that big deal to support VPN on these | systems. | | Also services like this one to circumvent the Apple | policy couldn't just give you a Wireguard configuration | file and say to you "just install the Wireguard app and | import the config"? It would work and of course Apple | couldn't do anything (beside removing the whole Wireguard | app from the store). | tgragnato wrote: | That's what I do too. | | Not having entitlements or not being able to sideload is | more of an issue while trying to tweak or patch an | existing code base. | | E.g.: contributing to WireGuard or iCepa, ... | JonathonW wrote: | After Big Sur deprecated network kexts, I switched over | to Viscosity-- which is another OpenVPN client, and | supports both tun and tap VPNs without an extension | (using only built-in macOS capabilities). | | It does _not_ require the Network Extension framework, is | _not_ App Store distributed, and does _not_ have any | entitlements. (It is Developer ID signed and notarized, | but that 's just for user convenience; it'd work just | fine unsigned if the user wanted to click through macOS's | warnings to get there.) | ctdonath wrote: | I'm paying for a walled garden. I own the hardware, and with it | bought software which I _want_ to aggressively maintain it. | | If you don't like the product, don't buy it. Don't compel them | to satisfy your whim via police power of the state. | kmeisthax wrote: | Walled gardens are also legally enforced by police power of | the state. Otherwise, Epic would just distribute their own | jailbreaks and tell Fortnite users to jailbreak their phones. | | Furthermore, I find it really frustrating how _my_ desire for | the ability to go a little bit outside of certain walled | gardens is construed as me demanding _you_ go outside the | walled garden at all times. 95% of the walled garden is | perfectly fine - it 's the 5% of apps that won't fit inside | of it that are the problem. | [deleted] | emteycz wrote: | EU will sooner ban encryption than do this. | | And who cares then... | reaperducer wrote: | _in order to use one 's own device properly_ | | It boils down to someone's personal definition of "properly." | | You are on HN. Your definition of using a device "properly" is | very different from the vast majority of the other human beings | on the planet. You're not Apple's target audience, and that's | OK. The more of you there are, the more force there is for | creating other options. But don't pretend that there is only | one "proper" way to use a device. | mplewis wrote: | Exactly. Many users don't have a concept of how to use a | phone "wrong." For example, they blame the phone when they | follow internet instructions to sideload an app which causes | bugs. | 3grdlurker wrote: | The only way to prevent large, billion+ dollar corporations | from existing is via highly intrusive state regulation, so | people who are appalled by the monopolistic and authoritarian | behaviors of big tech should really be asking themselves (1) | whether they are against capitalism, because there isn't a | model of optimizing economies for market freedom and profit | that disallows the existence of billion/trillion dollar | companies, and (2) whether they are okay with breaking up the | concept of a "nation-state", since its size requires it to have | large economies. | anonymou2 wrote: | What I find amazing is that in this capitalist world, these | companies are really against private property (yours, not | theirs) I am not sure if private property is in the | definition of capitalism, probably not, so there may be no | contradiction. But still it is really amazing. | pmontra wrote: | Capitalism is about using capital to produce something. | Capital and the means of production are privately owned. | This is the opposite of communism, which lets people own | things but not the production system (actual | implementations might vary.) | | It's in the spirit of capitalism to be competitive so don't | be surprised if those companies want all those things from | us. | heavyset_go wrote: | It's ironic, because the delineation[1] between personal | and private property is often blurred by capitalism, yet it | is laid bare in this example. | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_property#Persona | l_ver... | zepto wrote: | The solution you are proposing is worse than the problem. | | If Apple were forced to allow multiple stores or sideloading, | governments that right now have no leverage with Apple would | _force_ their citizens to install government stores and apps. | karlshea wrote: | This isn't speculation, there's literally an article on | 9to5mac today about how the new iOS update will be pre- | selecting apps provided by the Russian government on device | setup to comply with a new law there. For now you can | deselect/remove them. | akmarinov wrote: | That's really not an issue right now. Governments ARE forcing | Apple to preinstall government apps right now. | | https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/16/russia-pre-install-iphone- | app... | zepto wrote: | That article completely proves my point. | | 1. Russia _has sufficient leverage_. Most smaller countries | do not. | | 2. "These pre-installed apps will also be _deletable_ after | setup is complete, just like any other third-party app that | is downloaded from the App Store." | | That's as far as Apple was willing to go. The Apps also | don't have privileged access to anything private. | | If the US or EU forces Apple to allow alternate stores, | both of these protections will be gone, forever. | | And once they are gone on Apple devices, why would anyone | imagine we'll ever again have a widespread platform that | doesn't have government mandated software? | | Apple's dominance is at best a transient problem. Let's not | trade it for a permanent one that is far worse. | wlesieutre wrote: | _> 2. "These pre-installed apps will also be deletable | after setup is complete, just like any other third-party | app that is downloaded from the App Store."_ | | They aren't even preinstalled. You get a prompt during | setup and they're _pre-selected_ to be installed after | setup, but you can uncheck them. | | "All apps in the list are pre-selected to be installed as | part of setup; however, users are able to deselect apps | individually if they don't want them." | Wowfunhappy wrote: | > On macOS, it is now impossible to distribute a VPN or a | virtualization software without permission from Apple | | No it's not. It's impossible if you don't want to require your | customers to change some security settings. | | We can have a discussion about whether that's practical for a | developer, but either way, the user has control over their Mac. | Completely different situation from iOS. | naringas wrote: | > the user has control over their Mac. | | for now, because observing the current trends, they'll likely | won't for much longer... all for the sake of safety and | convenience. | jsperson wrote: | On the other hand, I spend 0% of my time managing iOS devices | for my parents and am constantly bombarded with issues from my | in-laws with Android phones. I agree that some of Apple's | behavior is monopolistic and has some unfortunate, possibly | unforeseen consequences, but the end result is pretty nice for | the consumers who are willing to accept the compromise. | curt15 wrote: | How many of those issues from your in-laws are due to | installing programs from outside Google Play? | anonymou2 wrote: | I suppose it is not so bad to be a serf. Your master feeds | you and you don't have to worry about getting food. | forgotmypw17 wrote: | I followed this road until the device was locked. Make sure | you have a backup of stuff like photos and emails which is | not Apple-managed. | Barrin92 wrote: | I'm always amazed that in the land of the brave and free | butchering general purpose computing machines is supposed to | be justified by the fact grandma doesn't install the wrong | apps. | | Funny is this argument always exclusively pops up when it | comes to Apple smartphones. Are we supposed to lock every | desktop down too because mom and pop installed a wrong | toolbar? It's like the reverse 'but think of the children', | and people keep using it who would scoff at it in every other | context, just to engage in this constant Apple apologia that | has infected tech people who should know better but don't | because they've grown up with macbooks with shitty stickers | on it. The sort of brand influence that Apple exercises and | the stuff it gets away with is truly astonishing. | ratww wrote: | It's not about grandma. I also don't want to deal with | bullshit myself. | | - In the country I grew up I have to install rootkits in my | computer in order to use the bank website. Some of them are | borderline impossible to uninstall, and some banks have | rootkits that conflicted with the ones of other banks. How | do I know if it's not spying on me or not? It's a multi- | megabyte kernel extension. I can't even use Linux or a | Virtual Machine to access the website! | | - For some apps I use for music making I had to install | iLok which is (or at least used to be) the biggest piece of | shit ever and crashed my computer all the time, because it | was terribly written. I still refuse to buy anything that | uses physical DRM. | | - Even today in macOS (which is supposed to have a sandbox) | I keep finding stuff in the disk from programs I | uninstalled several years ago, because developers can't | keep their telemetry spying garbage off every single corner | of my machine. | | - Every single scummy websites (which is 99% of all sites, | HN and Reddit are the only exceptions I can think of) | requires a login with Email so they can send me spam and | send my information to third parties. With iCloud Sign Up I | can sign in without that fear. | | So yes, most of the time I _wish_ my desktop was limited | the way my phone is locked because _I_ own my computer, not | some asshole developer who decided my computer is their | playground. | | As long as I keep developing my software and compiling open | source stuff, I'm good. Other developers can embrace the | sandbox or piss off. | spideymans wrote: | On Mac and Windows, I have to think twice about whatever | applications I install because, as you said, any | application could royally screw with the system. | | On iOS I can download effectively whatever I like from | the App Store without worrying about it screwing up my | system. That peace of mind is worth a lot of money, and | is why people pay a premium to be in this walled garden. | | I have no desire for for my iPhone to have the same | threats presented to my Mac or PC. I also have no desire | for my Mac or PC to be as locked down as my iPhone. There | is room in the market for both. Trying to legislatively | eliminate this option is ridiculous. If you don't like | the device's security policy, _then don 't buy it_. | aaron_m04 wrote: | > I'm always amazed that in the land of the brave and free | butchering general purpose computing machines is supposed | to be justified by the fact grandma doesn't install the | wrong apps. | | This is because we have so much "freedom" that Apple is | free to do this. I would argue this is a false freedom, | like the freedom to own slaves. | evgen wrote: | We also have the freedom to ignore people who want the | freedom to blow off both feet and demand that everyone | else also has this ability. Freedom is choice, but for | some reason these people will not just choose another | platform and finally STFU. I guess it is just too galling | to see other people decide to treat a computer as if it | was a hammer with which to accomplish a job and not a way | of life around which you organize your self-worth. | themacguffinman wrote: | Hardly comparable when a slave doesn't choose to be a | slave while an Apple user has to pay hundreds and | thousands of dollars to become one. | ehutch79 wrote: | there are absolutely controls you can turn on for macs that | will do that. I have locked down employees computers | because they couldn't be trusted. | marcus_holmes wrote: | I'm always curious about this attitude. Why did you | employ them if you felt you couldn't trust them? | ehutch79 wrote: | Very good question! | Tushon wrote: | People being good at anything else (let's say, | accounting) is not correlated with safe/smart computer | use habits. If you can prevent a lot of turmoil by not | letting them install arbitrary programs and still keep | them happy and working well on their main role, why get | rid of an otherwise good employee? | saagarjha wrote: | That's the point! There are no similar controls in | iPhone, you just get the locked experience by default. | maccard wrote: | I bought my dad a chromebook 2 years ago, because it's the | most locked down laptop form factor I could find. My tech | support calls have dropped from monthly (yes, monthly) to | once. Before it was "I can't find my email" (whatever | windows' default url handler for mail:foo@bar wasn't logged | into his account) or "office isn't working" (that's a zip | file, not a document), or " every time I try to run X it | does Y" (the final straw was windows defender stopped him | from opening a docx file because it came from an untrusted | source, which was his GP/doctor who had self hosted mail | bring flagged as spam by Hotmail). Bought a chromebook, | moved him to google sheets and google docs, and haven't had | a call since. If there was a locked in, $200 phone that | wasn't apple that I could buy for him that would have the | same effect, I would. | retox wrote: | It really does seem that personal responsibility is a dirty | word these days. Whether it comes to being able to critical | review some news/social media someone has read online or | maintaining the computer in your pocket. | | I wonder if it's an off-shoot of the concept of 'victim | blaming', meaning it's not allowed to lay the | responsibility for someones actions on them, there should | be safeguards that prevent someone from making a mistake in | the first place, even if it's at the expense of people who | know that they're doing. I haven't fully fleshed out in | idea in my head yet. | ballenf wrote: | I'm always amazed in the land of the free and a forum for | people who build tech products that so many people favor | taking away your right to create a product and sell it on | your own terms. I'm just not comfortable forcing Apple to | change the software on its phones (relaxing app signing) or | forcing it to distribute someone else's software for free. | | While I don't like the Apple tax, I really don't like the | idea that forcing Apple to open up its App Store is the | right solution. | | I wish we could start with these ideas first: | | - pricing transparency: force the UI to show exactly how | much of every transaction goes to Apple. We already do this | with many other taxes, so I don't see it as an intrusion. | | - first sale doctrine fully applied: force Apple to allow | users to install any OS they want on an iPhone. Prohibit | locking, etc. But if you choose to use Apple's OS, then you | have to accept their policies. This same policy should | apply to game consoles and other hardware. (And this does | contradict slightly my above point about app signing, but | I'd argue that letting people use hardware unfettered is | different than letting them use your software unfettered. | But it's an admittedly weak and flawed compromise.) | 67868018 wrote: | > Funny is this argument always exclusively pops up when it | comes to Apple smartphones. Are we supposed to lock every | desktop down too because mom and pop installed a wrong | toolbar? | | Yeah I really wish we could... how many human hours have | been wasted cleaning up infected garbage on friends and | family desktop computers? | Jyaif wrote: | Do you think that you spending 0% of your time managing iOS | devices has something to do with apps not being able to use | their own payment system? | random5634 wrote: | This is one of the major features yes. On iOS apps are | totally prohibited from their own payment flows in app / on | platform - it's completely banned. | | This is extremely noticeable in a couple of areas. | | Subscription - you get an email from apple BEFORE renewal, | and can easily cancel subscriptions - all located in one | place - no phone calls or other stupidity (try cancelling a | myheritage account by contrast!) | | They have integrated monitoring so if you delete an app, it | will ask if you also want to cancel out the subscription | for the app. | | The prompting for purchase and trials is VERY explicit. So | for example, NY Times has a banner (not on ios) saying | signup for $1/week. Great, you do it. Then you find out | that in a month it switches to something like $15/month- I | mean, the scams and tricks are endless off app store. | | Especially with elderly relatives or younger folks or just | folks who don't want to be hassled with this game playing, | these features are what make using apple so nice and help | drive the premium users are willing to pay (which can be | ridiculous!). | | One tip - if you have elderly folks, scan their bank | statement / cc statement 1x per year, you usually can save | them thousands on auto-renewing stuff they no longer use. | [deleted] | spideymans wrote: | >The prompting for purchase and trials is VERY explicit. | So for example, NY Times has a banner (not on ios) saying | signup for $1/week. Great, you do it. Then you find out | that in a month it switches to something like $15/month- | I mean, the scams and tricks are endless off app store. | | I really wish government or credit card companies would | impose rules on merchants that prohibit this kind of | behaviour. It's very easy to get bitten by subscription | scams, even from companies that appear legitimate. | | The lack of regulation on this matter just leaves Apple | with justification to act as a payment gatekeeper. | eropple wrote: | I agree with your general point, but I raised my eyebrows | at this: | | _> So for example, NY Times has a banner (not on ios) | saying signup for $1 /week. Great, you do it. Then you | find out that in a month it switches to something like | $15/month_ | | Out of curiosity, I went incognito (as I'm an NYT | subscriber) and clicked that banner just now, and it says | it's $1/week for a year, not a month ($4.25/week | afterwards). I'm pretty sure I've been seeing that offer | for years, too. | | Maybe you're in a different cohort or something but | that's a weird and antagonistic way to treat a customer | that's going to drop people out of a funnel so I'm | wondering if you're misremembering. | wrycoder wrote: | Wall Street Journal _after_ teaser is $468 per year. | random5634 wrote: | Apple has focused pretty heavily on the user experience, | developers be damned. | | I know this is not popular on HN (ie, anti-trust claims | to allow devs to abuse users the way they can elsewhere). | | They haven't been stupid / annoying about it. You | contrast their controls with those outside ios. | | The russian site I visit with the cookie notice, they can | still track me and what am I going to do about it? So the | cookie notice is both annoying an ineffective against bad | actors. On iOS, I decline a permission, and it's done. | spideymans wrote: | >ie, anti-trust claims to allow devs to abuse users the | way they can elsewhere | | I can't lie. When I see companies like Match Group | complaining that iOS policies prevent them from | surreptitiously locking their "customers" into | subscriptions[0], I can't help but chuckle. This is | precisely why I bought an iPhone. | | 0: https://nypost.com/2019/11/06/tinder-owners-stock- | tumbles-af... | jsperson wrote: | >Do you think that you spending 0% of your time managing | iOS devices has something to do with apps not being able to | use their own payment system? | | Indirectly sure - it pays for the app store and all of the | curation that goes on there. Admittedly there's a crazy | healthy profit for Apple, but I believe you are arguing | principles so the amount shouldn't be relevant. | vagrantJin wrote: | This is an argument. _My elderly parents are stupid | argument._ for why you should buy iOS. No- its not signalling | at all. | | iOS is just as confusing as Android. Its a matter of which | one you use first or regularly. Just as Linux is confusing to | non-linux users. | | Also. Android works on the dodgiest mobile hardware available | to mankind. Something not a lot of HN users seem to know - | from tractors in farms to research equipment in the arctic. I | dont know about space, but if we are going to use a modern OS | on space craft - I'm willing to bet it will be an android | fork. | cjohansson wrote: | I spend a lot of time fixing iOS devices to relatives and | friends. I think what you are referring to is just a myth | created by the PR department at Apple | MikeUt wrote: | > compromise | | This is not an inherent compromise. iPhones could be just as | safe and issue-free if they were rootable, just as cars don't | need hoods welded shut to prevent their owners from messing | with the engine. If you find the compromise acceptable, | simply don't root your phone. | Daho0n wrote: | A car analogy that works! Good job, this is a rare sight | indeed :) | heavyset_go wrote: | To extend this analogy further, people share, load and | modify ECU firmware dumps for their cars, too. | alerighi wrote: | Not true, it depends on what one is used to. My father for | example always used Android, now he got an iPhone and he find | it more difficult to use, to the point that it asks me even | trivial things. It's a myth that iOS is more simple to use | than Android, there are things that are more complicated. | asciimov wrote: | Biggest headache that Apple has solved is updates. They are | very clear if a phone is still supported or not. | | The following is a conversation I had with a relative, | while trying to troubleshoot their phone. | | Q: "Why doesn't my Bank App work?" | | Me: [after many steps]"Because you need to update your OS" | | Q: "How do I do that?" | | Me: [many steps later] "Sorry you can't update your OS. You | will need a new phone." | | Q: "But this phone is only a year old." | | Me: "The phone had been out for over a year before you got | it. The [manufacturer] stopped updating it. You have to get | a new phone to use your Banking app." | | Q: "But new phones are so expensive, my phone is still | plenty fast, and the battery lasts all day, why do I need | to get a new phone?" | | Me: "The manufacturer stops making updates to make you buy | a new phone from them." | [deleted] | lone-commenter wrote: | > My father for example always used Android. [...] | | > [H]e got an iPhone and he find it more difficult to use | [...] | | I guess that's precisely because he is used to Android, not | because iOS is more difficult. | crazypython wrote: | Any software distributed on the App Store immediately becomes | nonfree software. The free software definition is linked to the | end-user's freedom to modify the programs on his computers, not | whether a developer can fork it. | | Specifically, distribution on the app store denies "The freedom | to... change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom | 1)." | mullingitover wrote: | Not true at all - you can modify the source code from open | source apps, build, and install on your own device without | asking permission from Apple or paying a fee for a developer | license. The only control Apple has is over app distribution. | heavyset_go wrote: | Apple actively bans GPL software from the App Store because | the GPL precludes distribution of GPL apps under the App | Store's terms. | | Distribution under the App Store's terms is a GPL violation | itself. | mullingitover wrote: | Can you provide some examples of apps Apple has removed? | Because, counterexample, Telegram is licensed under GPL and | is has not been actively banned from the app store. | heavyset_go wrote: | VLC was removed from the App Store by Apple[1], and had | to be re-released under a dual license that allowed App | Store distribution. GNU Go faced the same licensing | issue[2]. This is a topic that was discussed on HN | several years ago[3][4]. | | > _Because, counterexample, Telegram is licensed under | GPL and is has not been actively banned from the app | store._ | | As long as Telegram owns the IP for the app, or has | contributors sign a CLA that allows for relicensing, | nothing is stopping them from distributing the app under | the GPL _and_ distributing it under an App Store friendly | license. | | Taking GPL code that you do not own the IP of, or that | you do not have a license to distribute under your own | terms, and distributing it under the App Store terms is a | violation of the GPL. | | [1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/no-gpl-apps-for-apples- | app-sto... | | [2] https://www.fsf.org/news/2010-05-app-store-compliance | | [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2083723 | | [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1379662 | mullingitover wrote: | These aren't examples of Apple unilaterally removing | GPL'd apps, these were examples where the creator | contacted Apple with demands and Apple complied by | removing the apps. | | The GPL issues are more to do with GPL fans being overly | pedantic about the license. The source code can be shared | outside the app store, the only thing the app store | build/signature is doing is baking in the app store | wrappers which aren't adding extra functionality. By this | logic, distributing a signed build of a GPL app would | violate the license. | m463 wrote: | yes and no. | | I believe GPL 2 might be ok. | | You can also distribute your own GPL software on the app | store, it you dual-license it. | | But I believe distributing someone else's GPL 3 software is | a problem, because as RMS said he realized he had to add | freedom zero, the freedom to RUN the software. | | Remember that Apple stops you from RUNNING software, then | gives/sells you the permission. | heavyset_go wrote: | As far as I'm aware, the issue is that the GPL 2 & 3 | stipulate that the freedom to copy, modify and distribute | any work based on GPL software should not come with any | additional restrictions, and the App Store's terms impose | additional restrictions on those freedoms. | m463 wrote: | I believe for GPL2, you could plausibly provide a link | for copies of the source code. | heavyset_go wrote: | Binaries are considered work based off of GPL software, | so the freedoms to copy, modify and distribute binaries | without restrictions apply. GPL3 goes further and | clarifies that if software is distributed with additional | restrictions that those restrictions can be ignored. | kmeisthax wrote: | Yes, but if you take the software from the App Store, you are | bound by App Store TOS. The TOS supercedes any Free Software | rights you may have had from the license; and prohibits you | from redistributing the software, which trips GPL's no- | further-restrictions clause. Of course, you _can_ take both | sets of terms for the App Store and a self-compiled version, | and you can then distribute modifications to the source code | of the self-compiled version under GPL terms. But you | _cannot_ upload software to the App Store under GPL terms | without violating the GPL. | | In practice, this means you cannot actually put GPL | applications on iOS unless you get a CLA from every developer | on the project. This means a lot of perfectly good GPL- | licensed applications will never actually get ported to iOS. | You'll never see, say, Blender or Krita on iPad until and | unless they CLA all their developers so that they can | actually distribute the port legally. | | If Blender Foundation or whoever runs Krita does have a CLA | requirement for contributors, then consider that particular | example corrected, but my point still stands: You should be | able to distribute GPL software on the App Store and have the | GPL terms supercede the App Store TOS. | mullingitover wrote: | > In practice, this means you cannot actually put GPL | applications on iOS unless you get a CLA from every | developer on the project. | | Again, simply not true. If you obtain the source code, | build, and run your own iOS apps on your own device you | have no issues with GPL compliance. Honestly I'm | disappointed that more open source projects don't go this | route. Blender could easily provide an xcode project that | anyone can build and run on their device outside the app | store. They choose not to, but there's nothing stopping | them. | wvenable wrote: | As long as you have a valid developer certificate to sign | the app and you have a development provisioning profile | and your device is registered as a test device. For that | you need to be registered as an iPhone Developer Program | member ($99). And you have to constantly renew your | profile. | Nullabillity wrote: | And you need to have a Mac. Because reasons, I guess. | mullingitover wrote: | > For that you need to be registered as an iPhone | Developer Program member ($99) | | Again, simply not true. You don't need a paid developer | license for local installs, and this has been the case | for a very long time. | wvenable wrote: | But then the app only works on your device for 7 days. | martin1975 wrote: | one of the many reasons I never bought an iPhone... not because I | have some beef against iOS/OSX... I just dislike Apple's business | antics, a.k.a. greed. | protomyth wrote: | _Apple is requiring us to add the ability to sign up and pay for | Librem One subscriptions within the Librem Tunnel app before they | will allow updated versions into the App Store._ | | This the basically the summation of it all. Doesn't Apple require | the ability to have anonymous logins too when creating accounts | on iDevices? | bogwog wrote: | You're also leaving out that the VPN is just one part of the | larger "Librem One" subscription package. It's something | customers discover through Librem's marketing, buy from Librem | on Librem's website not using Apple's payment/account systems, | and not exclusive to Apple platforms in any way. | | Yet Apple is forcing them to give up 30% of their revenue, | because they can. | ogre_codes wrote: | > Yet Apple is forcing them to give up 30% of their revenue, | because they can. | | This is a bit disingenuous. Apple isn't forcing them to give | up 30% of their revenue, they are requiring they give users | the option to sign up through the App Store. | | If most of their customers come from outside the App Store, | this won't make much difference to them. | | If they make less the $1m through the App Store, it will only | be 15%. | | The second is a bit of a niggle, but if most of their | promotion and value comes from outside the App Store, this | wouldn't be a big problem. | bogwog wrote: | Arguing these fine points is a waste of time because I feel | like people defending this are missing the complete | insanity of this situation. Try a different perspective: | | Let's say Apple wants to sell their devices at "Billy's | Electronics", which is a tiny kiosk at a mall with minimal | foot traffic. Billy tells Apple that he'll only sell Apple | devices at his kiosk if Apple agrees to give him 30% of all | revenues Apple makes from all of their services from | customers that buy a device at his kiosk. This includes | things like iCloud subscriptions, app store sales, etc. | | That's batshit right? Like literal insanity if Apple would | accept that deal. So obviously, Apple would tell Billy to | fuck off and will find somewhere else to sell their | devices. | | Except they can't, because Billy is the only person with a | license to sell electronics in the entire country. He got | this by convincing everyone that he wants to "protect" | electronics customers from scammers and other bad people | who want to exploit them. The fact that this makes Billy a | trillionaire is just a nice little coincidence. | | "Sure, I'm the richest entity in the entire history of the | universe, but that's not why I'm doing this. I'm doing this | so innocent people don't download an app only to discover | that they need to go to another website to create an | account first." ~ Billy | | > If they make less the $1m through the App Store, it will | only be 15% | | That's a deflection tactic, and doesn't justify anything. | 15% is still too much as long as there are no alternatives. | mrzimmerman wrote: | But the opposite is true. Android represents a much, much | larger part of the smart phone market and there are a | wide variety of devices, manufacturers, and sellers. | | So the more accurate version of your story is that Apple | goes to one of 100 different retailers instead of Billy, | which is also what the electronics marketplace is like | already. | Kuinox wrote: | Except the comparison end there because users can switch | shops when they want and it cost them nothing, not the | same for a phone. | musicale wrote: | > 15% is still too much as long as there are no | alternatives | | 1. Most of the apps in the App Store are games. What are | the alternative app stores for other handheld gaming | systems like the Nintendo Switch and 3DS? | | 2. I supposed it's a shame that there are no alternatives | to iOS/iPhone besides Android which has an 85% market | share. | | 3. https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report- | steams-30-cut... (updated Jan. 2021.) | ziml77 wrote: | They want the experience to be that if you download an app | that needs payment to function, it's possible to pay using | the same payment flow as everything else. You don't have to | hand over your payment information to a third party. | | Maybe Apple needs to make changes to allow apps that are only | a part of a service instead of the main selling point of the | service to bypass those rules? Seems like it would be tough | to figure out what is and isn't covered though. | nvrspyx wrote: | Crazy how that doesn't apply to Amazon (and Audible) or | Netflix /s | vbezhenar wrote: | What about customers who have found an app in AppStore, | wanted to try it out only to find that they need to go | through external websites and stuff. Not kind of UX you | expect from iPhone. | protomyth wrote: | Apple got paid for the phone and wouldn't have the app in | its app store except for the requirement it be there to be | installed in the first place. Rewarding a company for | forced discovery is not a healthy thing. | jasonjayr wrote: | I expect any device with general purpose computing | capabilities to allow me to use those capabilities anyway I | want. | | Especially I'm spending $1000 USD on the thing. | comex wrote: | What if the way you want is using the App Store's payment | infrastructure? | heavyset_go wrote: | Sounds like rent-seeking from a company that has literally | banned all mobile app distribution competition on their | platform. | akmarinov wrote: | It sucks, they don't require it of Netflix, Spotify, Amazon, | Disney, etc | | What Librem are doing is the right thing though - go to the | press, raise a big stink and Apple will back off. It's been | proven to work time and time again. | ncw96 wrote: | Apple has a well known exception to the rule requiring an | option to subscribe inside the app for "reader" apps, a | vaguely defined which includes Netflix, Spotify, Dropbox, and | seemingly whatever else is convenient to Apple. | | Apple did not lift this requirement for the Hey email app | during the controversy over that last year. Instead, they | reached a compromise where Hey would offer a free trial of | their service inside the app, so they could be in compliance | with the rule that an app must have some functionality | without an account. | wvenable wrote: | I'd like to see them try to enforce that rule with banking | apps... | ogre_codes wrote: | You have a banking subscription? | mrloop wrote: | I've got 2 bank accounts which i pay a monthly | subscription fee. For instance https://monzo.com/i/monzo- | plus/ | pmontra wrote: | Not even Apple can sell devices that don't do Netflix, | Spotify, Amazon, Disney, etc. At least not as many as they | are selling now. | protomyth wrote: | Yeah. Apple says they don't like developers going to the | press, but its pretty much the only thing that actually | works. | | Well, for devices, its basically customer support via threat | of class action lawsuit. I'm still a little miffed I had to | pay $79 three times to "fix" the iPhone 6 and didn't get a | refund after they finally acknowledged the issue. | meepmorp wrote: | > It sucks, they don't require it of Netflix, Spotify, | Amazon, Disney, etc | | I believe they do require this of large companies; it's been | a while, but IIRC Netflix and Disney+ both allow you to sign | up for the service in the app. The HBO app does, too. | | You can log in with an existing account, but I thought the | requirement was that you need to give a user the ability to | sign up for a paid service account in app, and that signup | needs to bill through Apple. | | It's a moneymaker, no doubt; as a consumer, though, I | appreciate not having to hand over credit card details to a | random service I'm trying out for a month. | zapzupnz wrote: | Netflix took out their sign up screen years ago; you have | to subscribe via the website. | | Disney+ does let you subscribe through Apple. | stalfosknight wrote: | tl;dr version: "We think we're too special to follow the App | Store's rules regarding not forcing users to sign up somewhere | else instead of in the app they're trying to use but Apple | doesn't agree so we're taking our marbles and going home." | prophesi wrote: | Does Librem One allow you to download the OpenVPN/Wireguard | profiles? Because then you can just download OpenVPN Connect and | get just about the same experience. Sounds much more free than | using a VPN app that can't be used with other VPN servers. | | This way you can still pay for Librem One outside the app, and | thereby circumvent the 30% toll, and continue to serve your iOS | users. | Stephen304 wrote: | The Android docs seem to hint that it's using ovpn profiles | under the hood - it shouldn't be too hard to get the config | file if it isn't already provided in the librem one website: | https://docs.puri.sm/Librem_One/Android/VPN_Tunnel.html | mullingitover wrote: | I'm not clear on why Librem would need to add an in-app purchase | option under app store guidelines, and their article doesn't | really explain it either. | | App store guidelines on this topic are: | | > 3.1.3(f) Free Stand-alone Apps: Free apps acting as a stand- | alone companion to a paid web based tool (eg. VOIP, Cloud | Storage, Email Services, Web Hosting) do not need to use in-app | purchase, provided there is no purchasing inside the app, or | calls to action for purchase outside of the app. | | So are they offering purchase inside the app? I downloaded it, | and there's a bare login prompt with no mention of purchasing | outside the app that might get them in trouble. | kop316 wrote: | This seems to be where they explain it: | | "Even though Librem Tunnel is just part of the overall Librem | One offering, because it's part of a subscription service, | Apple is requiring us to add the ability to sign up and pay for | Librem One subscriptions within the Librem Tunnel app before | they will allow updated versions into the App Store." | | However, what you show seems to contradict that? | | EDIT: If I were to guess, the flagging was an automated | process, i.e. Apple flagged it and sent an automated email to | Purism. Whether or not Purism tried to respond or not I do not | know, but in the end they decided not to deal with it and | pulled their app. | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | my company had the exact same problem. This is no automated | process. We had to enable EITHER in-app free trials OR in-app | purchases (or both). And you cant use stripe, paypal, amazon | payments, google pay, or alipay in-app.... it MUST be apple | pay. | mullingitover wrote: | Did they cite the particular part of the developer | agreement that was violated in your case? | 3grdlurker wrote: | Can somebody provide a direct answer to the question of why | Apple's App Store policies are bad? The argument that always | comes up is that it is anti-competitive, but how does that not | encroach on _every_ business owner's right to decide who they | want to do business with, how they want to run their businesses, | and how they design their platforms? | | Also, one of the examples that always comes up in these | discussions is how Internet Explorer came to be dominant in the | 90s and 00s stifling innovation in the web, but if you look at | how it was dethroned, it wasn't dethroned because of government | regulation; IE was dethroned because more innovative products | entered the market, i.e. Firefox and Chrome, and this all | happened under the framework of free market capitalism. What, | then, is the argument for regulating Apple, and what exactly is | the expected outcome? | wmf wrote: | Firefox and Chrome were able to dethrone IE because Windows | doesn't have any gatekeeper preventing apps from being | installed. | | Apple has the right to decide who they do business with, but | app developers shouldn't be forced to do business with Apple at | all. That's the asymmetric part of the relationship. App | developers should be allowed to distribute/sell apps directly | to people. Specifically, the expected outcome is either that | the App Store becomes optional (sideloading is allowed) or that | the App Store becomes a neutral utility where everything is | allowed. | m463 wrote: | I believe the customer eventually bears the brunt of this. | | It's sort of like net neutrality and your ISP. | | You pay your ISP for access to the internet. | | If your ISP is also charging others for access to you, then | either: | | - you will pay more for those services, or | | - the services available to you will be diminished | | same for apps. | crusty wrote: | Wouldn't the spirit of librem here suggest the solution would | just be to make and distribute an open VPN app on iOS and tell | your librem one subscribers to install it and have an easy and | secure method of downloading a file with your endpoints? Then | there is no argument to be made that it's tied to a subscription | because anyone could use it for their own or yours or anyone | else's that supports it. | | PIA (and others I'm sure)offers a zip of .ovpn files for their | endpoints that Linux users can import to use with openVPN without | using their app. | | Obviously, this is a proposed solution to having the app on iOS, | no dealing with Apple's access monopoly. | brian_herman wrote: | Yeah, the wireguard guys can maintain their app. Why can't a | company like librem? | vultour wrote: | Off topic but this website has the most obnoxious lower case | letter 't' I have ever seen. I had to stop reading after the | first two paragraphs and try to figure out what was wrong because | the text felt off. | CarVac wrote: | I think it's hinting. Zoom in or view it on mobile--it's | probably a fine font for print, just not at default zoom on a | low DPI display. | 13415 wrote: | I was more annoyed by the '3', which made the 30% look like a | distorted 80%. | incongruity wrote: | If I understand correctly, Apple would only get 30% of the in-app | subscriptions but not those from outside the app? | | If so, I think there are likely multiple motivations here. Apple | has long been willing to force certain standardizations in the | name of simple and uniform user experiences (they're not perfect | but the intent is clearly there). Having to drop out of an app | experience to do something isn't good UX - so enforcing _the | option_ to do it in app makes for a simpler experience - as much | as it also adds to Apple's bottom line. To be honest, the issue | seems more to be just how big of a cut they want to take - but | that's even harder to fight against (capitalism and all) so this | is the easier target. | chipotle_coyote wrote: | You do understand correctly, yes. (Also, Apple only gets 30% of | the in-app subscriptions in the first year, then it drops to | 15%.) | newbie578 wrote: | Talk about putting one's money where their mouth is. Respect to | Librem, and I hope the EU will act soon and force Apple to start | playing fair. | | I feel like the tide is turning and change is coming. | RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: | > Their use of the App Store to disadvantage competitors (such as | when they removed competing parental control apps in the name of | privacy coincidentally when launching their own). | | My experience seeing parent control apps, are that they likely | leak private data either intentionally or unintentionally. These | apps, would have access to all sorts of data, and unless the | developers are both very scrupulous and very competent, it is | easy for private info to be leaked. I am far more comfortable | with Apple handling that, than a third party. | imwillofficial wrote: | This article is tired excuses dressed up as freedom. They want to | travel the road but not pay the toll. | [deleted] | m-p-3 wrote: | On top of letting the toll take 30% on the merchandise on each | deliveries on the ONLY road available on their platform. | | They already pay their Apple Developer Program yearly | membership fees. If Apples deem this isn't enough, then they | should raise the cost to properly take that into account. | imwillofficial wrote: | This is terrible business advice. Look how wildly successful | their model is. It's the example of how other app stores run | their businesses. | heavyset_go wrote: | Standard Oil and Microsoft in the 90's/00's were both | wildly successful, too, yet they still engaged in anti- | competitive behavior to the detriment of the market and | consumers alike. | zapzupnz wrote: | That would preclude smaller developers, people who pay the | subscription but don't submit apps but rather use other | benefits of the program, and people who only or mostly make | free apps. | adamcstephens wrote: | To use your analogy, there is only one road and it is a toll | road. Maybe they are ok with a side road, but there is none. | | The only thing tired is extractive monopolies. Funnily enough, | Apple could make a few small tweaks and not be in this | category. They've chosen instead to double down on exerting | their market power. | imwillofficial wrote: | And? That's how I want it. If you want viruses distributed by | your App Store, go for it, Android is waiting for you. I want | a tightly regulated relatively well run platform, not an open | one. My phone is mission critical. There isn't an open | platform that can handle that responsibility, like say, Linux | in the Cloud. | robmusial wrote: | Isn't the sensible option then to allow third party app | stores? If you want a tightly regulated environment only | stick to the official channels. Apple can continue to | charge their premium for that. | [deleted] | zepto wrote: | I have been a vocal supporter of Librem, and Pine64 because I see | the adoption of free devices running free software _as a | necessary solution and the way to ultimately change the dynamics | in the industry._ | | They are literally doing the thing I think is the solution. | | On the other hand, I oppose the generic bashing of Apple and | Epic's antitrust campaign, because these have nothing to do with | creating an alternative. Indeed if Epic wins, iOS will become | _even more entrenched_. | | So, I can no longer recommend librem, and will only recommend | Pine. | rictic wrote: | > Indeed if Epic wins, iOS will become even more entrenched. | | Hm, care to expand on that? I don't see why that would be. | crowbahr wrote: | Because his arguments are against the fundamental structure | of iOS rather than against the app store. | | A second app store inside of the walled garden still ends up | being a walled garden, just one with more of an illusion of | choice. That means that the users will have even _less_ | reason to leave. | ece wrote: | I disagree, it's perfectly fine for a developer to say no, I | can't be in a closed ecosystem for these reasons like Purism | stated. We need developers and users to choose open ecosystems. | m-p-3 wrote: | They could offer alternate ways of accessing their VPN service | either through IPsec (native to iOS), OpenVPN or WireGuard. | Semaphor wrote: | Sidenote, but their font has a really horrible "3". I was reading | and wondering why Epic needs to pay 80 % toll instead of 30 %. | Even after realizing it's a 3 I'd always see an 8 at first. | forgotmypw17 wrote: | A few years ago, I got my grandmother an iPad. She used it for | years until she passed. I just powered it on yesterday and it now | "requires activation", which won't complete via WiFi. All the | data on it, e.g. pictures, is now inaccessible. It is, | effectively, bricked. I'll sooner eat a pile of shit before I | ever touch or recommend another Apple product again. | | Edit: To clarify, it was never locked or password protected | before, and I would use it to look at pictures in the Photos app | locally. I hadn't used it for several months. | skim1420 wrote: | I'm sorry to hear of your loss. It seems you took good care of | things like this for her. | phren0logy wrote: | This is unfortunate, but isn't this a fundamental trade-off for | some of the privacy protections iOS offers? Or am I | misunderstanding the situation. | forgotmypw17 wrote: | It was never locked before, not even a four-digit screen | lock. I have no idea why this happened and no recourse. | trevor-e wrote: | >and no recourse | | Just curious, the Apple Store was also unable to help you? | Hope you are able to recover the data. :/ | forgotmypw17 wrote: | Thank you. This just happened, so I have not been to an | Apple Store yet. There isn't one near me, and it is not | easy to get to the far removed ones. It may be weeks or | months before I can visit one. | rodgerd wrote: | This is just "I've tried nothing and I'm all out of | ideas" territory. | forgotmypw17 wrote: | Actually, I have already tried trusting my Apple device | to not backstab me and lock all my data. | | I've also tried reasoning with the device and unlocking | it myself, which also did not work. | | I don't see how you can say I haven't tried anything. | | By the way, in case you missed it, this happened | yesterday, I just happened to come across a thread which | was relevant. | musicale wrote: | This sounds like a bug. If the device never had a passcode | before you certainly don't need one to unlock it even if it has | auto-updated. | lyptt wrote: | FYI you don't need WiFi to activate. You can activate via | iTunes / macOS if you plug it in. | forgotmypw17 wrote: | I don't have either of those. | | From previous experiences, it's my understanding that | activation means resetting and erasing it. | gsich wrote: | iTunes is also available on Windows. Might not help if you | run Linux. | forgotmypw17 wrote: | I'm not using Windows. | gsich wrote: | I wrote that it might not help. But VMs (or separate | HDDs) are a thing too. | em-bee wrote: | you expect someone to pay for a windows license just so | they can run itunes just to reactivate a device they own? | | seems a bit much | gsich wrote: | No need to pay, you can run Windows 10 without | activation. I think it was either 90 or 180 days, so | should be plenty of time to recover the device. | officeplant wrote: | You can run it forever as long as you are fine with the | Please Activate text in the corner and having | personalization restricted. | em-bee wrote: | oh, i wasn't aware of that. good to know | spijdar wrote: | In this case it seems like it has already been reset, or | performed some kind of major OS update, which seems | unlikely. | | In lieu of itunes or mac, you could also take it to an | apple store I believe. | forgotmypw17 wrote: | It was just sitting around hooked up to a charger while I | was away. | stock_toaster wrote: | Did it have auto-updates enabled? It might have just been | doing what it had been told, and updated itself at some | point. | forgotmypw17 wrote: | Not that I am aware of... Would an automatic update lock | the device? | comex wrote: | No. | Shivetya wrote: | Okay. I just had to recover my father's iPad account; he's | alive but lets just say aggravating at times getting him to do | what he is told to do. | | Since he bricked his iPad I had to submit a recovery through | iCloud and that invokes a twenty four hour delay before it | sends recovery information to his listed authentication device; | as in his telephone. | | So that comes in which directs you to apple.com/recover or such | and when you put the id in you have the option to get a 2FA | code back to the phone which we did. I then simply put my phone | number into the account so all future recoveries would be | simpler. | | Apple will allow for more than one authentication method, use | it for ANY gift you give to an elderly parent or such. Frankly | the best option you have is to get yourself on their email | account recovery page as well. | | Its just common sense in this era of identity theft that you do | your due diligence so you can protect those you care for. | | If your iPad is asking for a passcode and you don't know it you | are lost unless it was backed up which brings up the second | point. | | When giving gifts like these out make sure to help the | recipient learn how to back it up to a computer or have them | let you back it up to yours when they visit. | forgotmypw17 wrote: | Thank you for your help. It has never been passcode- | protected, and it does sound similar to the issue you | experienced. I'll try getting in touch with Apple to see if | they can help. | | I've quite a bit of experience with consumer tech, but I did | not anticipate this kind of issue happening. I don't think | it's right that the iPad can just lock itself and require | Apple's intervention to make usable and access the data | stored. | | I will definitely never consider any Apple device as a gift | to anyone ever again. I chose Apple for the same reason | another commenter suggested, to reduce problems with support | calls. But this eclipses all the times put together I | would've had to help her with another device. | nemothekid wrote: | "Apple won't let me to break into an iPad I don't own" isn't as | bad as you are trying to make it seem. | | In other words, why are you surprised that you can't hack into | an Apple device? | forgotmypw17 wrote: | Because it worked fine last time I used it, it was never | locked. I do own it. It was bought outright by me. I later | inherited it legally and rightfully. | [deleted] | moistbar wrote: | That's an interesting take on "this non-password-protected, | non-LTE iPad that I do own abruptly stopped letting me look | at data I was able to see recently." | forgotmypw17 wrote: | It was on the cell network, but it was purchased outright, | not under contract. | | It does sound like the other commenter's theory that the | SIM has "gone bad" may be true, but I had no idea this | could happen, and I don't see how that makes it any more | valid. | moistbar wrote: | It doesn't make it valid at all. I can still access my | Android phone without a SIM card, and in fact I used one | on nothing but Wifi as my "landline" for quite a while. | The only thing that should break when you remove or | damage a SIM card is your ability to connect to a cell | network. | syrrim wrote: | Are you aware of the concept of inheritance? | heavyset_go wrote: | If they were the executor of the estate or heir, then it is | their property for liquidation or their own use. | heavyset_go wrote: | I left an iPad on a shelf for more than a year. During that | time, Apple must have done migrations with iCloud and Apple | accounts, and completely deleted the account the iPad was | signed in under. I couldn't unlock the iPad, and I even tried | re-registering a new account using the same email address and | password that I had originally used. Didn't work at all, and | it's still a paperweight. | | I'm just lucky in that I didn't have any important data like | pictures, passwords or 2FA apps on it. Sorry for your loss. | Angostura wrote: | Sounds like it was an iPad with a SIM snd somehow the carrier | SIM has gone bad. Pop a new SIM in and reactivate? | chipotle_coyote wrote: | Yes, that's got to be a carrier thing. iPads do not "require | activation," and many iPads are wifi-only. | | I'm not saying this isn't a problem, but I am extremely | skeptical it is a problem caused by Big Bad Evil Apple doing | Big Bad Evil things. | forgotmypw17 wrote: | How do you figure this problem is not caused by Apple, when | I bought the iPad outright from Apple and only used the | carrier for monthly-paid network access? | [deleted] | chipotle_coyote wrote: | Because iPads don't require activation, and carrier | services _do_ require activation. The "Activation | Required" message is specifically related to cellular | networking. | | This could be (and I suspect very likely is) a problem | with your iPad's SIM that you could check by powering off | the iPad, removing the SIM and turning it back on again. | It could be that there's some kind of corruption that you | might need to fix by connecting it up to iTunes or even | bringing to the dreaded Genius Bar. It could conceivably | be some weird bug in iOS that has somehow sprung up and | turned your iPad into a flat flowerpot. All of these | things suck! But what it is _not_ is Apple forcing you to | "authorize" your iPad in order to let it boot up. | forgotmypw17 wrote: | I don't think it makes sense that cellular activation, | which has not been active for several years now, would | lock down the entire device, refusing me access to my own | data, not to mention being able to use the device over | local WiFi network. | | Do you disagree? | | (I am nowhere near a "Genius Bar".) | thelopa wrote: | I think you are mistaken. Activation is unrelated to | cellular service. Activation is an anti-theft feature. E.g. | even M1 macs are subject to activation and activation lock. | | https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208987 | | Replacing the sim card in a device immediately triggers | activation (e.g. to stop someone from using a stolen, | passwordless device as their own). So, if the sim went bad, | it seems plausible that the device might need to re- | activate. | forgotmypw17 wrote: | Thanks, it is indeed a SIM-capable iPad. I had no idea this | kind of thing could happen with it. I appreciate your lead, | though I'm not sure where I would get a new SIM? It hasn't | been hooked up to the network for several years now, why | would it "go bad" now? | | Also, do you know if I could have prevented this by removing | the SIM before it happened? | zapzupnz wrote: | > I'm not sure where I could get a new SIM? | | Do you have a mobile phone? Pop it out, put it in the iPad, | activate it, take it out again. | | In New Zealand, where I'm from, you can get SIM cards from | supermarkets, petrol stations, convenience stores ... | forgotmypw17 wrote: | I actually do not, haven't had one for years. :) ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-03-16 23:01 UTC)