[HN Gopher] An ancient method that keeps Afghanistan's grapes fr... ___________________________________________________________________ An ancient method that keeps Afghanistan's grapes fresh all winter Author : CapitalistCartr Score : 229 points Date : 2021-03-26 11:56 UTC (11 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.atlasobscura.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.atlasobscura.com) | firasd wrote: | I've been wondering about a taxonomy of food preservation | techniques. | | * Sealing (this technique seems to be a type of sealing) | | * Fermentation | | * Cooling | | * Dehydration | | * Removing specific elements like sugar etc | | I guess it all boils down to preventing germs from thriving | (although I suppose there are other things that can happen too-- | food going dry or stale) | samatman wrote: | A few techniques which involve adding something to the food: | | * Salt | | * Vinegar | | * Alcohol | adrianmonk wrote: | Also sugar. For example, fruit preserves. | hinkley wrote: | I believe salt counts as dehydrating, although there are | other forms of curing that don't achieve the same water | removal as salted meat. | | Vinegar and alcohol technically are fermentation, although | it's true that in some cases primary fermentation happens | separately and the food is stored in the result. Pickling is | sort of a grey area. | adrianmonk wrote: | Apparently you can also add alcohol as a preservative: | | https://preserveandpickle.com/preserving-fruit-alcohol/ | phonypc wrote: | Salting is often combined with some amount of dehyrdrating | of the entire food, but e.g. wet brining meat will actually | add water. | | Salt directly dehydrates the microbes themselves through | osmotic pressure. | samatman wrote: | I see a difference between drying something out and salting | it (or sugaring it) even though both remove moisture, and a | difference between fermenting something into vinegar and/or | alcohol, and using those substances to preserve something | directly, even though, yes, you won't have alcohol nor | vinegar without fermentation. | | Similarities as well! This taxonomy wouldn't be a well- | formed tree. | 8fGTBjZxBcHq wrote: | Yeah the general theme is depriving microorganisms of something | they need to thrive in the food environment. Like dehydration | lowers water activity, refrigeration keeps it outside their | ideal temperature range etc. | | Fermentation doesn't really fit with the rest under that model | though. In that case you're creating a good environment for | some (halotolerant lactobacillus usually) because _their_ | byproducts will make it too acidic for other things to thrive. | So that's fundamentally different from just trying to make it | universally hostile to microorganisms. | | Even within a simple technique like "sealing" here it really | depends on the food itself and probably local factors like | seasonal humidity and temp swings. A lot of fresh foods if | sealed in an airtight container can make botulism. I'm pretty | informed on this subject but I don't know why that doesn't | happen with the grapes here. Must just not be present on them | in large amounts, or the natural yeast competes with it, or | something who knows. | | We think of these technologies as simple because they are | beyond ancient and the actions you take to use them are basic. | But there is a lot going on biologically and it seems at least | somewhat understudied so far. | wazoox wrote: | You can also keep bunches of grapes fresh for months in an attic | by plunging the stems in a bottle of water. That's a method that | has been used for centuries in Europe. | | See https://jardinage.lemonde.fr/dossier-2305-conserver- | raisin-n... | patrec wrote: | I wonder how the Korean newspaper in the second photo ended up in | this Afghan village. | achow wrote: | Could be due to Korean construction firms. | slim wrote: | maybe it comes from foreign soldiers | OldHand2018 wrote: | I think it's the Korea Times. Look closely at the top right | corner to the left of the page number A31. | | https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0674003,-87.8502797,3a,75y,2. | .. | | It probably came from American soldiers | yongjik wrote: | It's actually Chosun Ilbo - I searched for the phrases I | can read, and found the matching article (2019 Oct 14). | (See the article's title ending with "...anida".) | | https://www.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2019/10/14/201910 | 1... | | So, almost certainly not from American soldiers. | OldHand2018 wrote: | Nice detective work :) | programmertote wrote: | Somewhat related - pots made out of the earth/clay are very good | at keeping the temperature cool. I wish we see more of them being | used in western countries. | | I remember my family in Myanmar storing water in big pots made | out of clay like this one | [https://images.app.goo.gl/hG4bDGtn34QhmdxP8]. The water that is | stored there is super cold and very refreshing for summer use. | People use similar, but smaller pots for storing drinking water | in parts of the streets so that anyone can take a sip if they are | thirsty: https://images.app.goo.gl/hG4bDGtn34QhmdxP8 | | I wonder if my country, which is now undergoing a brutal military | coup, still makes such pots these days.... | cedricd wrote: | Not sure if they make them still today, but I saw those pots | for sale by the hundreds at a market in Bagan about 10 years | ago. | tecleandor wrote: | In Spain we have the famous "botijo" that's used for keeping | water cold, and also, for drinking. | | Thing is, this only works in dry climate. A friend with several | Spanish restaurants in Japan brought some botijos with him, and | being Tokyo very humid in summer, they didn't work at all and | kept "sweating" water. | quercus wrote: | Another preservation technique I've seen is burying the fruit in | ash. | kebman wrote: | I've noticed that when you put a bag of potatoes in the fridge, | they will still keep far shorter than if you had them in a | dedicated potato cellar. Likewise, most of the old houses around | the farmstead I grew up had unheated walk-in pantries next to the | entrance. Often vegetables keep for far longer in those pantries | than in the fridge. But of course the fridge beats out storing | the veggies on the counter every time. Many of those farms also | had standalone earthen cellars that served as "fridges" during | the summer, often in conjunction with a small brook flowing with | cold mountain water, where perishable things such as milk pails | could be sunk into during warm summer days. Really wish I could | have something like that in the city lol. | nicoburns wrote: | Potatoes will keep for weeks as long as you keep them dark. | They don't need to be particularly cold. Do people really keep | potatoes in the fridge? | numpad0 wrote: | Lots of people put every food in the home time-freezing | device called fridge, from tropical fruits to potatoes to jar | of peanut butter, very few recognize that that's not how | things work. | hutzlibu wrote: | Well, on a general base, the concept that cooling things, | prevents degrading is quite true. It just not works for | everything, for certain reasons. | | But if you would have a potato only fridge, with low | humidity, that you never open - I think that would work | quite well, too. | volkl48 wrote: | Peanut butter absolutely works that way. It lasts longer in | the fridge once opened: | https://www.nationalpeanutboard.org/wellness/how-long- | will-t... | | Now, most people are likely to use it up before that | becomes an issue, but it is a food for which the fridge | applies your "time-slowing" mechanism. | | Also, if you buy the natural kind, it keeps the oil from | separating back out once you've mixed it. | [deleted] | marci wrote: | Is there anything about potatoes that makes it obvious that a | fridge is not required? | adrianmonk wrote: | The product packaging, if you buy them by the bag (instead | of bulk). | | Here's an example from Sam's Club web site: | | https://scene7.samsclub.com/is/image/samsclub/0003338353070 | _... | | At the bottom right, it says, "Store potatoes in a cool, | dark, well-ventilated place." | Symbiote wrote: | Supermarkets don't keep them in fridges. | marci wrote: | In many countries supermarkets don't keep eggs in a | fridge, whereas in others they do. | | Apples can be kept for months in a fridge. Salads don't | last long outside of one. Supermarkets don't keep them in | fridges (unless they've been processed). | phonypc wrote: | In those countries where supermarkets don't refrigerate | eggs, they don't need to be refrigerated at home either. | | Apples can be kept for months outside a fridge. Depending | on season and variety, they might be 6 months old before | they even get to your supermarket. | marci wrote: | Only in places where you have cold seasons, and only | during those, unless you have a cellar/basement, or | something that can work as a proxy for one, but then you | need knowledge about what's best stored where anyway. | 8fGTBjZxBcHq wrote: | Not in themselves. All of the tubers in culinary use in the | west are stable for storage in the dark for months but if | you don't have that cultural knowledge then you'd need | someone to tell you not to put potatoes in the fridge I | guess. | omginternets wrote: | It's clearly not obvious unless you've been told, but the | point is that people have grown strangely disconnected from | food in a "bacon comes from plastic sachets" sort of way. | asdff wrote: | The fact you can leave a potato out for two weeks and its | fine to use? | marci wrote: | IF you don't have prior knowledge, you then have to | either forget to store them in the fridge or make the | experiment. | | And personally, I've had things go bad, and most of the | times I just think "I'll try to eat that sooner next | time", without really thinking hard about how long I had | it. | brnt wrote: | If you don't wash em, and ideally get them with a good coat | of soil, potatoes can be stored till next summer. | saiya-jin wrote: | that's how my parents & ancestors kept potatoes, one of | staple foods in central/eastern europe - dirty with bits of | earth, in non-heated dark room/place. They get the only | wash just before cooking. Same for other crop like carrots, | onions etc. | | They lasted from autumn harvest till, well, next autumn. | Yes, they were a bit sprouty and wrinkled, but very much | eadible. | omginternets wrote: | In the US people are super paranoid about food as compared to | most of the EU (and probably other places as well). Americans | keep eggs, fruit, cured meats and jam in the fridge as well. | frosted-flakes wrote: | I think you're somewhat misinformed. | | Unlike in Europe, American chickens eggs are washed and | need to be refrigerated in order to not go bad (it's more | common for American chickens to have salmonella, which is | also why you shouldn't eat raw eggs in America). | | Some fruits (such as apples or pineapples) simply taste | better cold, and some fruits _do_ last longer if | refrigerated. That 's important if you go grocery shopping | every two weeks, which is quite normal in America. | | Canned jam is never refrigerated, but once opened it always | is, and I'm sure that's the case everywhere. | | Cured meats, like jerky? No one refrigerates that. | morsch wrote: | I usually put jam in the fridge, now, but we never used | to when I was a kid. We go through jam fast enough that | it's probably unnecessary now, but why risk it... Then | again I have like twice as much fridge space as we used | to back then. | tastyfreeze wrote: | One correction, enviromentally salmonella is just as | common in the EU as the US. Chickens in the US are not | immunized for salmonella like they are everywhere else | that regulates the egg industry. Foreign chicken | immunization requirements and US egg washing requirements | started around the same time in response to salmonella | outbreaks. Both are effective mitigations. However, | immunizing and not washing has an added benefit of | incentivizing producers to keep eggs clean. | frosted-flakes wrote: | That's what I mean, European chickens don't have | salmonella because they're vaccinated. | | Not washing the eggs has the additional advantage that | they don't need to be refrigerated. | jasonwatkinspdx wrote: | In the US eggs sold retail are required to be pressure | washed. This removes the waxy coating that makes the egg | airtight. So in the US eggs absolutely do need to go in the | fridge, unless you have your own chickens or such. At room | temp they'll spoil within about 2 days. | | It depends on the fruit but many of them will last longer | in the fridge. Same goes for cured meat and jams. | Especially with jam you may not eat it often enough to stop | it from molding at room temps. | | I get making fun of stupid American habits is an EU | pastime, but this is some pretty dumb stereotyping. There's | rational reasons behind what most people are doing, even if | it's a little different from the habits where you live. | omginternets wrote: | >but this is some pretty dumb stereotyping | | It's hardly stereotyping. By your own admission, its | representative of the norm. But your explanation is well- | taken. | | Nevertheless, it speaks to the greater point: people | (especially in the US) have become disconnected from | their foods. Much of this appears to be structural, as | you have pointed out. | jasonwatkinspdx wrote: | It's easy to overgeneralize. If you want to believe that | everyone is disconnected from food, you'll find | confirmation of that. If instead you point to the farm to | table movement, and the huge popularity of | authentic/artisanal foods among anyone in the US with | disposable income, and you'd come to the opposite | conclusion. Both are painting with too broad a brush. | radicalbyte wrote: | Americans keep eggs in the fridge because American farming | regulations result in eggs covered in poo, which need to be | washed. The washing process destroys the protective layer | of the egg, which means that it will spoilt outside of the | fridge. | | In Europe our regulations mean that the chickens are kept | in much cleaner conditions; our eggs don't need to be | cleaned so keep their protective layer and can be kept | outside of the fridge. | phonypc wrote: | The important difference is that European chickens are | mostly vaccinated against salmonella. Eggs and poop | ultimately travel though the same orifice, so if the | chicken has salmonella the egg is likely to be | contaminated even if there isn't visible poop on it. | infinite8s wrote: | This is not quite true. While eggs and poop come out of | the same orifice, while laying the egg the uterus extends | a bit out of the body, so there's no chance the egg would | come into contact with poop. | [deleted] | zikzak wrote: | Temperature can change the starch/sugar balance in the | potatoes as well. | infinite8s wrote: | In fact, it's recommended to refrigerate potatoes the day | before you want to fry them since that triggers a | conversion of the starch to sugar. | masklinn wrote: | > I've noticed that when you put a bag of potatoes in the | fridge, they will still keep far shorter than if you had them | in a dedicated potato cellar. | | That's because fridges are entirely the wrong place to store | potatoes, potatoes react to light, you're better off keeping | them at ambient temperature in the dark (and regularly trimming | the sprouts) than you are keeping them in a fridge which gets | lit up 15 times a day. | | For other veggies, it might be that they're e.g. ethylene- | reactive, a fridge is a sealed environment so any gas is going | to stay around. Humidity is also a factor. | galaxyLogic wrote: | > fridge which gets lit up 15 times a day. | | Then a simple solution would be to keep the potatoes in a | non-transparent bag in the fridge, no? That would be better | than a bag outside the fridge I would think, if light is the | problem. No? | | I'm gonna try that thanks for the tip | Spooky23 wrote: | Best solution for potatoes is to put plastic tote or wooden | box in the garage or basement, fill halfway with sand and | put the potatoes in, covered lightly with sand. Keep a lid | on top. If that's too much, use a paper bag and put it | somewhere cool that won't freeze. | | My family does this every winter -- I buy 100 lbs of | potatoes from a farm for $15-25. | | It works for carrots too. | elliottkember wrote: | There's no benefit to keeping them refrigerated. You're | just using up fridge space. Cupboard in a bag is fine. | [deleted] | vram22 wrote: | Interesting points. Didn't know some of them. My 2c: in | India, I don't think anyone stores potatoes in the fridge, | even though we have quite hot weather in many parts of the | country. | | Does trimming the sprouts prevent them from rotting? | masklinn wrote: | I don't think it prevents rotting, but it temporarily stops | and slows the sprouting process, which is actively | converting potato to sprouts and ultimately a plant (so the | potato gets all shriveled, and you've got greening spread | from the sprouting site which is full of bitter and | somewhat toxic compounds). | vram22 wrote: | Got it now, thanks. Yes, I've heard that the greenish | parts of the potato tuber are toxic and should be | discarded. Contain some alkaloids, likely. The potato is | a plant in the Solanaceae family, which includes common | edible plants like potato, tomato, eggplant, chillies, | bell peppers, etc., as well as some poisonous ones like | datura. In fact, I was surprised to see how huge and | diverse the family is: | | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanaceae | max_hammer wrote: | Patatos are stored in cold storage. | wunderflix wrote: | I also noticed that vegetables don't keep long in our fridge. I | think one reason is they get stacked on top of each other and | through the pressure they get damaged. And that's how they get | moldy quickly. | YeGoblynQueenne wrote: | I can't get past the cookie banner. Can someone explain the | ancient method for me please? Thank you :) | slim wrote: | mud tupperware | gandalfian wrote: | Put grapes in a mud and straw bowl and seal over. Crack it open | months later and grapes are still good. Nobody has studied it | to be sure of the specifics. | YeGoblynQueenne wrote: | Thanks! | williesleg wrote: | Poppies? | austincheney wrote: | I remember when I was there locals telling me Afghanistan had a | fantastic variety of grape local to the area. They were once | regularly farmed. The Taliban attempted to burn most of them down | as grapes can be used to make wine which is not Halal. | Nonetheless grapevines remained a beloved curiosity in Kabul | largely for their aesthetics and low maintenance. | max_hammer wrote: | Or Opimium is more profitable than grapes | ilamont wrote: | 25 years ago I travelled in the Taklamakan Basin which lies to | the east of Afghanistan in Xinjiang, NW China. The local Uyghur | people and their forebears had perfected over millennia various | techniques related to growing and preserving grapes. It's a sub- | sea level depression, one of the driest and hottest spots in | Central Asia - so hot that local people warned me not to park my | bicycle in the sun or the tires might burst. For thousands of | years the people there have maintained underground irrigation | channels which bring water from the mountains hundreds of km to | the north to irrigate grapes and other crops. The covered | channels go right through the towns and even in the early summer | were filled with rushing water. Grape trellises were growing over | many of the sidewalks throughout the city of Turpan (with stern | signs in Arabic script and Chinese not to eat them, ignored by | local kids) providing shade as well as grapes. The countryside | nearby had these brick buildings with gaps between the bricks | used for rapid drying of grapes to be made into the best raisins | I've ever had. | samatman wrote: | The Taklamakan is a basin (so lower than everything around it) | and used to _be_ an inland sea. But it isn 't below sea level, | everything is above 1000 meters. | | One of those obscure corners of the Earth I have always wanted | to visit... | mc32 wrote: | Quite interesting! Also what was the reason for the warning | against eating? | samstave wrote: | My guess is so that they arent over harvested causing the | leaves to die eliminating the shade quality? | csunbird wrote: | Probably because that they are owned. | neartheplain wrote: | The underground canals sound like qanats, an ancient irrigation | technology that originated in Persia and then spread to China | and elsewhere: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat | vram22 wrote: | Beat me to saying the same thing, by an hour:) I've always | thought qanats were a cool idea. | hinkley wrote: | I always thought digging a qanat must have been miserable | work, but the fact is that the human body's peak endurance | comes at a temperature that is pretty close to ground | temperature. | | Runners and cyclists and gardeners know that a nice 55deg day | you can just go forever without stopping because your body | isn't wasting any energy on perspiration. And in fact if you | do stop for long you just get cold. | jandrese wrote: | The also sound like the Puquios used in South America. | abdupattoh wrote: | I have the same wonderful memory of Turpan in 2000. Clay | structures for making raisins were scattered around the | villages. Hottest place I have been in my life. Great food. | dr-detroit wrote: | Just let a little air out of the tubes youll be fine | etimberg wrote: | Example of the vines in case anyone is also curious | https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9532058,89.1822778,3a,75y,24... | ACAVJW4H wrote: | I once heard in central Anatolia people used to store grapes on | the vine. They would trim the end of the vine, pluck one of the | fresh grapes and stick it on the trimmed end. Finally vines would | be hanged from the ceiling of a cool cellar. | | My grandfather told me that the nutrients and moisture within | that one grape would keep the others alive for longer. | raducu wrote: | I've seen the same thing done by my grandfather in Eastern | Europe. | ineedasername wrote: | Actually the grape on the end is needed so the cellar knew it | was the end of the vine. Otherwise the cellar would throw a | compiler error. | dylan604 wrote: | Or the the grape on the end was used to properly indent from | the wall as the cellar doesn't need EOL indicators since | everything will have the proper white space. | ampdepolymerase wrote: | How do you stick it back on to the vine? | davchana wrote: | Kind of prick the end of vine (the place where vine was | cut/sheared) into that one single grape like a needle. | hinkley wrote: | People do something similar with allium family plants as well. | I think we've been doing this a lot longer than anyone really | knows. | jk7tarYZAQNpTQa wrote: | In Spain there's a variety of tomatoes called "tomates de | colgar" [1], which means "tomatoes to be hanged". I've also | heard the term "tomates de invierno" ("tomatoes for the | winter"). The idea is that you hang them in a dark, dry place, | and they'll last until the next summer. It's absolutely amazing | picking up a tomato that was collected 6 months ago, and | cutting it open to discover a fruit full of juices and flavor. | | IMO the industrialization of agriculture and livestock was a | huge leap forward in terms of yield and productivity, but a | huge step backward in everything else (health, taste, variety, | know-how, etc.) | | [1] https://marksvegplot.blogspot.com/2016/09/tomates-de- | colgar.... | [deleted] | FlyMoreRockets wrote: | The article mentions it works best with thick skinned grapes. | Muscadine grapes may be well suited for this technique. | | https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/09/26/551835327/mu... | joshuaheard wrote: | Also, the article mentioned that the grapes were harvested late | in the season. This would mean they had a higher sugar content. | The sugar would act as a preservative. | jandrese wrote: | It's probably a technique that has been slowly refined and | perfected over the centuries. Selectively breeding grapes | that preserve well, finding the correct mud and how much | water to mix, working out that saucer shape and how many you | can do at once. There are many years of gradual improvements | baked into those grapes. | dmarlow wrote: | I need to do more research and experimentation with moisture | control for things I seal air tight. | cycrutchfield wrote: | This is pretty interesting. For those familiar with winemaking, | there is a technique called carbonic maceration where grapes will | self-ferment intracellularly in an anaerobic environment. | Typically even if you don't artificially create an anaerobic | environment (by pumping in CO2), if you put enough grapes in a | sealed chamber the ones on the bottom will get crushed by the | weight of the grapes above and the yeast living on the skins will | kickstart carbonic maceration for the rest of the grapes (by | producing CO2). | | That may be one reason why the containers they make to store the | grapes are relatively shallow; a larger vessel such as a pot may | inadvertently crush some grapes and lead to making wine instead | of storing your grapes! ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-03-26 23:00 UTC)