[HN Gopher] Annie of Annie's Mac and Cheese
___________________________________________________________________
Annie of Annie's Mac and Cheese
Author : andygcook
Score : 184 points
Date : 2021-03-26 19:14 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.sfgate.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.sfgate.com)
| Finnucane wrote:
| In the last year our consumption of Annie's m&c has increased
| fairly substantially.
| blisterpeanuts wrote:
| if allowed to, my teenager would subsist solely on Annie's M&C.
| As I discovered when I bought several packages on sale. When
| there's no Annie's, she fixes herself a Ramen. We try to feed
| her protein and greens and fruit, but... not an easy task. Kids
| seem to gravitate to salty wheat carbs.
| ArkanExplorer wrote:
| I don't understand why Americans buy these kind of (expensive)
| processed and branded food products. Why not just buy pasta, the
| cheese (grate it if you want) and some other seasoning, as the
| raw individual ingredients?
|
| From there you can add chicken and fresh herbs.
|
| If you have a modern electric pressure cooker these kind of
| things are super simple to make, and with glass tupperware you
| can store and eat it over the next several days.
|
| Or am I missing something - are these branded products somehow
| cheaper than these recipes?
|
| Note: I am from Ukraine.
| deathanatos wrote:
| > _I don 't understand why Americans buy these kind of
| (expensive) processed and branded food products. Why not just
| buy pasta, the cheese (grate it if you want) and some other
| seasoning, as the raw individual ingredients?_
|
| My SO has a delicious home-made mac and cheese. It was _really_
| hard to find the cheese at Safeway; there were nights I check
| _multiple_ Safeways. It is just white American. (But not
| "American" cheese, which is yellow, and has a completely
| different taste.)
|
| As another commenter mentions, you need the right cheese, as it
| needs to melt correctly. My understanding is that this is the
| presence of emulsifiers that cause the cheese to melt
| correctly, which white American has. My understanding is that,
| actually, _cheese_ does not, and white American is technically
| called "cheese product" because it is has emulsifiers mixed
| it. (So it's not technically cheese anymore.)
|
| (Which is weird, because my understanding for parm in other
| recipes is opposite: that the cheap parm often _doesn 't_ melt
| correctly b/c it is usually adulterated with cellulose (e.g.,
| wood pulp / plant matter). So I might not have this completely
| correct. But then, wood pulp is likely also not an emulsifier.)
|
| (We also sometimes cut it with ham, and that is also
| surprisingly out of stock often. (The small sized ones; I can't
| use a giant/full sized ham as it would rot.))
| eloff wrote:
| I eat Annie's on a regular basis. I just add meat of some kind
| for protein. It's the convenience factor. Same reason I love
| microwave burritos with greek yogurt on the side.
|
| Time is a short, I just want something quick to make that's got
| a decent protein content.
| [deleted]
| ketzo wrote:
| You can buy four servings of processed mac and cheese for about
| $2 USD. It's insanely cheap.
| incanus77 wrote:
| Besides laziness, which is never in short supply here, her
| product is shelf stable and keeps for a long time, unlike un-
| dehydrated fresh cheese.
|
| Also, cost probably is a factor. Even Annie's, which is more of
| a "premium" brand, can be had for around 1$ US per box, which
| could feed two people or so as part of a meal.
| sharkweek wrote:
| Simpler than that: (and apologies in advance for confessing
| to having a basic palate here) boxed mac and cheese is pretty
| tasty.
| leetcrew wrote:
| I'm kinda embarrassed to admit that annie's shells with
| white cheddar is better than any mac and cheese I've made
| from scratch. and I've tried a lot of recipes.
| sharkweek wrote:
| Hey, take _SOME_ credit here, you had to mix all the
| boxed ingredients in a pan!
| [deleted]
| dekhn wrote:
| mac and cheese is made witha cheese sauce- it's not just grated
| cheese. You have to make a flour/butter emulsion and make a
| cheese sauce from that.
|
| I grew up eating mac & cheese and didn't even realize it was
| just elbow noodles and cheese sauce.
| goodolusa_ wrote:
| It's interesting seeing all these comments. I grew up poor in
| Chicago. My mom left when I was one and my dad raised me by
| himself - truck and forklift driver. Not once have I ever had
| fast food. We never ate highly processed foods, ever. You think
| that Europeans don't also have lots of kids and are poor? They
| still make fresh food. I find processed food disgusting and
| it's incredibly unhealthy. People don't cook because it's
| obviously not a priority. But if you look at the impacts of
| eating crappy food, one might change their mind.
| sjg007 wrote:
| My kids don't like cheese. Instant Mac has no cheese as we like
| to say.
| rhmw2b wrote:
| Where I live in the US any kind of fresh herbs except for maybe
| parsley and cilantro costs more than a box of mac and cheese.
| My kids eat it occasionally (maybe once a month) because they
| like it, it's cheap, and takes about 10 minutes to make. Still,
| >90% of what we eat is home made from scratch. I don't know
| anyone who eats processed foods for the majority of their diet,
| though I'm sure some people out there do.
| dangwu wrote:
| Do you not understand why fast food exists either? It's cheap
| and easy.
| ArkanExplorer wrote:
| In my country, McDonalds is an expensive restaurant, the kind
| you would take your girlfriend to if you wish to make amends
| with her.
|
| A meal there is about twice as expensive as a traditional
| meal at a traditional restaurant.
| turtlebits wrote:
| Don't tell me that cheap, easy, unhealthy food doesn't
| exist in the Ukraine. Ask yourself why that exists and your
| question is answered.
| Falling3 wrote:
| What country is that?
| tenacious_tuna wrote:
| Listed in OP:
|
| > Note: I am from Ukraine.
| zzzeek wrote:
| we make lots of fresh pasta but annies shells and cheddar has a
| very unique flavor you couldn't really replicate easily and we
| love it also.
| dang wrote:
| We detached this subthread from
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26596627.
| mulmen wrote:
| The branded/boxed food is cheap and predictable. Your "simple
| as" process is three times as much work and five times as many
| ingredients and likely more expensive. After a long day
| assembling F150s or getting screamed at about how hot or cold
| some coffee is working class Americans just want to fill their
| stomachs and pass out. People don't want to figure out what
| kind of cheese to melt. They aren't delighted by a new kind of
| noodle. Modern electric pressure cookers are... modern, I
| didn't even know these things existed five years ago. People
| have their habits. These specialty appliances are also
| expensive. They also require a lot more cleanup than a single
| pot.
| ArkanExplorer wrote:
| Electric pressure cookers require less cleanup and effort
| than 'traditional' cooking. Just clean the pot and wipe down
| the lid.
|
| You don't need to monitor the progress of boiling, you just
| pre-set the timer. The food comes out perfectly cooked and
| ready to eat.
|
| In the recipe I described above, you can cook everything in
| one pot - just add olive oil and the chicken in the bottom -
| it is not even necessary to cut up the chicken.
|
| I am a bachelor and cook almost 100% of my meals using a
| pressure cooker now. I rarely order takeout, it is so
| convenient.
| mulmen wrote:
| > Electric pressure cookers require less cleanup and effort
| than 'traditional' cooking.
|
| I own one, I use it all the time. This is false. I have to
| remove the seal, disassemble a valve and remove some
| components. A pot for mac and cheese just gets tossed in
| the dishwasher.
|
| This is especially false when you want to grate cheese (now
| I have to clean a cheese grater).
|
| Electric pressure cookers do not reduce the cleanup or prep
| at all. It replaces one pot, everything else is the same.
|
| Compare this to boil water, dump in a box contents, wait a
| few minutes. Clean ONE pot and ONE spoon.
|
| Every oven/cooktop I have ever used has a timer.
| yellowapple wrote:
| Hell, nowadays there are plastic "instant mac" bowls that
| are pre-measured to cook the noodles in the microwave.
|
| 1. Add noodles
|
| 2. Fill to line with water
|
| 3. Microwave for 2:30
|
| 4. Stir
|
| 5. Microwave for 2:00
|
| 6. Stir in cheese powder + liquid (butter, milk, or
| water, in my order of preference)
|
| 7. Serve
|
| Only one bowl to clean.
| r00fus wrote:
| YES! My kids do this themselves (our micro is mounted at
| waist height and easy for kids to access). They use
| microwave all the time to reheat leftover dinner for
| lunch too. Heh - my school-at-home kids are a lot like my
| coworkers in the office.
| dekhn wrote:
| I haven't had to clean the pressure cooker the way you
| describe (the seal and valve) until my wife used the
| cooker and didn't know that you can't fill it up too much
| or it will spew hot liquid through the vent when you turn
| it from "sealed" to "vent". I had used the cooker for
| over a year with only popping the pot in the washer (and
| because it doesn't have handles, it fits in the washer).
|
| My oven and range do not have a timer. It's beautifully
| simple. Also, I buy grated cheese to avoid cleanup.
| That's one of my extragavances.
| mulmen wrote:
| This is the manual for my Instant Pot:
| https://instantpot.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2020/02/Duo_Crisp_...
|
| > Wash after each use with hot water and mild dish soap
| and allow to air dry, or place in top rack of dishwasher.
|
| > Remove all parts from lid before dishwashing.
|
| > With steam release valve and anti-block shield removed,
| clean interior of steam release pipe to prevent clogging.
|
| I also had to buy extra seals so my beef barley soup
| doesn't taste like chili.
| bravura wrote:
| Instant Pot has been too much work in my opinion, but
| sous vide has been a lifesaver. Easy prep, easy cleanup,
| large margins of error on cooking time if you want to eat
| in 1-4 hours etc
| exdsq wrote:
| I love my sous vide but if you want to get the Maillard
| reaction (the thing that causes your food to brown and
| gain umami) you need to still fry or grill your food.
| Ends up with extra dishes, albeit totally worth it.
| sneak wrote:
| A lot of sibling comments are talking about shelf stability,
| which only tells part of the story.
|
| > _From there you can add chicken and fresh herbs._
|
| Due to the car-centric nature of the US, where it is really
| common to be over 2km from a market, and a trip to the market
| requires a) driving there, b) parking, c) driving back, the
| average USian visits the supermarket less frequently than
| people in other countries because it's more time and resource
| intensive. This results in larger trips (shopping carts occur
| in 100% of markets, and also Costco is a thing) and more
| processed foods with preservatives due to increased time
| between trips requiring longer shelf life.
|
| Fresh herbs, unprocessed cheese, non-shitty bread, et c - these
| are _way_ more common in societies that visit the store every
| 48h (or sometimes even every 24h if there 's a bakery on the
| corner of your block that you pass on foot every day) as
| opposed to the USA where you might only go to the market every
| 5-14 days.
|
| Just one more way in which the religion- and racism-motivated
| US shift to single family detached homes and suburbs cratered
| the population density and took neighborhoods,
| sidewalks/walking, camaraderie, local exploration, and fresh
| groceries along with it as collateral damage.
| gooseyard wrote:
| there are an enormous number of people in the US who don't know
| how to cook and aren't interested in learning.
| oivey wrote:
| For one, you can't make mac and cheese with just pasta, cheese,
| and seasoning. The cheese won't melt correctly. You need to
| make a roux or use a modern method like incorporating
| evaporated milk or sodium citrate. Lack of knowledge of how to
| cook is a big reason why people buy this stuff, on top of
| convenience.
| rng_civ wrote:
| I've gotten some pretty good results just using the left over
| pasta-water with some flour.
|
| AFAIK, the cheese I'm using doesn't have anything
| particularly special (some cheap hard cheddar). I don't even
| grate it, just chop it up a little before adding it to the
| water.
| maxerickson wrote:
| Pasta and cheese that isn't in a sauce is pretty good too.
| bluedino wrote:
| This is where Velveeta comes in
| psychometry wrote:
| It's the new American Dream: Working a 9-hour day at one job
| (or at multiple jobs), spending an hour commuting because you
| can't afford to live closer to work, lacking access to fresh
| ingredients because your house is in a food desert, and having
| a family to feed. Box mac and cheese is the answer.
| r00fus wrote:
| > I don't understand why Americans buy these kind of
| (expensive) processed and branded food products. Why not just
| buy pasta, the cheese (grate it if you want) and some other
| seasoning, as the raw individual ingredients?
|
| Same reason we don't all run OpenWRT on our home routers - yes,
| it's objectively better and possibly cheaper but most of us
| don't have the time to prepare the meals ALL the time.
|
| For us, the kids prefer it (even over homemade), and once a
| week we let them make it themselves for lunch. Done and done.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Short answer: time and effort.
|
| I'm the main mealmaker in my family. I generally like cooking,
| but I get tired of doing it every day. Processed stuff like
| Rice-A-Roni or Kraft Mac & Cheese, or frozen pizza takes single
| minutes of my time and only the most minimal effort and will
| generally be eaten without complaint.
|
| As for cost, these items are pretty cheap averaging $1 or $2
| per meal for three people. Maybe add some meat for another $2.
| That said, ISTR that Americans pay proportionally less of their
| income for food than anywhere else in the world, so food,
| processed or not is fairly inexpensive.
|
| Yeah, I know there are other cheap, fast meals I can make
| starting from raw ingredients: I'm a fairly good cook. However,
| as I mentioned above, sometimes I simply don't feel like it.
| roland35 wrote:
| When I was a kid, I used to love Mac and cheese dinner night!
| Now as a parent, I love Mac and cheese night even more! I can
| get both kids fed in 5 minutes and everyone is happy.
| mynameisash wrote:
| I don't disagree, but I think a lot of people have skewed
| perception of cost and effort in cooking. The two complaints
| I hear from people are generally, "But I don't know what I'm
| going to _want_ to eat until it's dinner time!" and "It's too
| hard/I don't know how to cook."
|
| I love to cook and bake, though I have the luxury of doing it
| when I want to. (My wife usually does most of it). I can make
| a batch of bread dough for three baguettes in under three
| minutes. Letting it rise takes no time, though it does
| require some foresight. Baking is only a few extra minutes of
| additional effort. I think I calculated that one baguette
| costs me about $0.17 of ingredients, almost all going toward
| flour, which I buy in bulk. It's also delicious - frankly,
| much better than anything I've bought anywhere else except
| for the boulangeries in France.
| tenacious_tuna wrote:
| > why Americans buy these kind of (expensive) processed and
| branded food products
|
| (1) as other commenters have mentioned, these products tend to
| be remarkably cheap in money (~$0.50/serving) and are shelf-
| stable
|
| (2) the USA has a rather poor culture around food preparation,
| in my experience--especially in poor households. When money and
| especially time/effort are in short supply, boxed meals (or
| fast food, etc) are absolutely essential, especially when
| juggling multiple jobs/kids/whatnot. Shelf-stable is an added
| bonus, allowing these to be stockpiled when on sale. Further,
| boxed mac (or canned soup, etc) are things that can be trusted
| to a child to make while unsupervised: again, a huge force-
| multiplier for busy households (parent taking kid 1 to sport,
| kid 2 alone at home, or kids 1&2 home alone while parent at
| work, etc)
|
| Even when time and other resources are available, many
| Americans simply aren't very interested in preparing their own
| food, especially not if they're a single-person household.
| After a day of work, with nobody to share the bounty of cooking
| with, it's difficult to argue putting the
| time/effort/creativity into a meal vs. 15 mins over the stove
| with some premade stuff.
|
| I say all this as someone who adores cooking, and finds it
| remarkably good stress-relief. I have a partner I can share
| dishes (and responsibility) with, and we love a variety of
| cuisines and being capable of making our own healthy food--but
| even so we also both love being able to make boxed mac for
| lunch every now and again. It's simple, and a hell of a lot
| cheaper than eating out.
| Falling3 wrote:
| One thing that I haven't seen mentioned yet is shelf-stability.
| Even if you love to cook, it's nice knowing you have a backup
| sitting in the pantry just in case you're feeling tired or
| don't have a chance to go shopping.
| primitivesuave wrote:
| My parents didn't have much money growing up, but they would
| always do what you described - get the raw ingredients and make
| it to their own health/taste preferences. They are immigrants
| from India, where this is the norm for all levels of income.
|
| Many of my friends growing up had parents working multiple jobs
| or long hours, who wouldn't have the time or energy to do this.
| I had one friend whose single mother wouldn't come home until
| 10 PM, so he prepared pre-packaged meals for dinner every
| night.
|
| If you compare the costs, it's ~$2-4 per meal in a box,
| compared to $20-30 to get all the ingredients for meal
| preparation. Many Americans simply don't have this amount of
| cash, and food stamp programs are insufficient in allowing for
| healthy eating habits.
|
| With the rise of Walmart and Dollar General across America,
| prepackaged meals seem to be a dominant meal option (I don't
| have any data on this, this is just from comparing shopping
| carts at Walmart vs Whole Foods).
| bluedino wrote:
| Walmart has cheap potatoes, carrots, onion, rice, pasta. My
| mom mad macaroni and cheese with regular elbow noodles and a
| couple slices of American cheese. We added ketchup.
| [deleted]
| yellowapple wrote:
| Having come from a working class American family (one which
| considered even Kraft, let alone Annie's, a luxury), it's the
| intersection of four aspects:
|
| 1. Cheap; yeah, pasta is cheap either way, but real cheese (at
| least the sort that'd actually be decent in mac and cheese)
| often ain't
|
| 2. Non-perishable; this means we could buy in bulk and not have
| to worry so much about shelf life, further amplifying Aspect #1
|
| 3. Quick; if you just came home from a long day at work, you're
| not likely to have the energy to prepare some elaborate home-
| cooked meal every night, so the trusty 'ol blue box it is
|
| 4. Easy; one of the first things I learned how to cook when I
| was growing up was packaged mac and cheese (be it Kraft or some
| generic brand) - all the ingredients except for water (and,
| optionally, milk/butter) are right there in the box
|
| These four aspects are applicable for a lot of prepackaged food
| here in the US. Even if you do add other ingredients
| (milk/butter to Kraft Dinner, ground beef to Hamburger Helper,
| etc.), having most of it already ready to go - and cheaply at
| that - is a godsend for any working class family. And sure,
| this didn't mean we _always_ ate the prepackaged stuff (my
| stepmom and stepdad both happened to enjoy cooking from scratch
| on various occasions, and sometimes it is indeed cheaper to go
| scratch-made than prepackaged), but it was indeed a staple.
| Swizec wrote:
| > Quick; if you just came home from a long day at work,
| you're not likely to have the energy to prepare some
| elaborate home-cooked meal every night, so the trusty 'ol
| blue box it is
|
| Mac&cheese _is_ quick. Even from raw ingredients.
|
| Maybe this is cultural, but growing up in Europe with a
| single-mom who worked 2 jobs ... we had homecooked meals
| only. Store-bought pre-packaged stuff was too expensive and
| unhealthy.
|
| Takes about 20min to cook a nice weekday meal based on
| whatever's in the fridge. You pack the fridge on weekends.
| sgtnoodle wrote:
| It's definitely a lifestyle/mindset and convenience thing.
| I can make a delicious, more nutritional mac and cheese
| from scratch in about the same time as from a box and I
| often do. It requires my attention for 3x as long, though,
| and dirties twice as many dishes to wash up afterwards (I
| use a saucepan to prepare a roux to make a smooth, less
| calorie dense sauce.) If my toddler is melting down from
| hunger, it's less stressful to whip up box mac and cheese.
|
| Many people don't realize how easy cooking staples can be
| and are intimidated, or lack the interest to figure it out.
| That likely correlates strongly to the lifestyle they were
| raised in. Also, most folks' psyches seem tightly coupled
| to the foods they were exposed to at a young age. If
| someone was raised eating Kraft, that's naturally what
| they'll think of as mac and cheese, and they may never
| revisit that association as an adult.
|
| Scratch / improvised cooking is a skill that takes practice
| to be good at. Personally, I enjoy it as a hobby. My mom
| cooked a lot, but made very bland food. I regularly pick
| out a random food I enjoyed from childhood, then figure out
| how to make it authentically. Last month I figured out
| perogies (I cheated on the mashed potatoes). Last week I
| made a delicious seared lamb with fennel and tomatoes (I've
| been watching a lot of Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares
| lately). Over the last two years I've optimized my
| sourdough technique to the point that it's boring (although
| I still wish I could get a more sour flavor!) I learned how
| to make proper wood fired pizza in Italy before COVID, and
| I'm still enjoying optimizing that at home, and starting to
| experiment with sicilian style.
| yellowapple wrote:
| > Takes about 20min to cook a nice weekday meal based on
| whatever's in the fridge
|
| It takes half that to prepare it from a box. And most of
| that time is waiting (either for the water to boil or for
| the pasta to cook).
|
| And further, you know what you're getting with the blue
| box. Less risk of messing up, and less painful if you do
| somehow catastrophically mess up.
| leetcrew wrote:
| so first of all, there's really no way mac and cheese is
| healthy unless you serve it with a side of brussels
| sprouts. it's comfort food.
|
| aside from that, I think there must be some regional price
| differences here. a box of annie's mac and cheese is like
| $1.50, which goes down if you buy in bulk. if you're fancy
| you can add a pad of butter and/or some whole milk, but
| otherwise that's $1.50 to feed two people. an 8oz block of
| cheddar cheese is already $2 at target, and you still have
| to buy the pasta, milk etc.
|
| mac and cheese is a surprisingly expensive food to cook at
| home though. I could definitely make a rice and beans for
| less money.
| Swizec wrote:
| > an 8oz block of cheddar cheese is already $2 at target
|
| Well there's your problem! A portion of cheese is 1oz :D
|
| That's 880 calories for $2. Pretty good imo
| senkora wrote:
| I predict that store-bought pre-packages meals will become
| more common in Europe over time.
|
| I think there's a clear pattern of food cultures being
| hollowed out over time. It's great if your parents know how
| to cook well and you can learn from them, but eventually
| that chain breaks when a child would rather buy their food
| than learn to cook it. Making things from scratch is hard
| and time-consuming if you don't know how to cook. At that
| point store-bought meals are sometimes the best remaining
| option.
|
| The United States gets a lot of flack for being the first
| country to encounter a lot of issues because we were the
| first to widely industrialize food, but this will happen
| everywhere.
| boringg wrote:
| Super interesting - I really was waiting for the twist in the
| story about how they recently made a pledge to remove Phlates
| from their product lines. Was also curious if the article was
| going to ask Annie about that.
|
| That was such an incredibly disappointing thing (how they have
| dangerous compounds for children in Annies) that I learned as I
| have been feeding both my 1&3 year old Annies mac and cheese. I
| had such high expectations on Annie given its origins and stand
| against toxicity.
| (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/19/business/annies-mac-chees...)
| boringg wrote:
| Not sure but the article feels like a soft sell piece/corporate
| brand building on Annies as opposed to a reckoning on how such
| a wholesome brand could go awry.
| azinman2 wrote:
| Well we learned you can piece this together pretty easily
| yourself... get some pasta shells, powdered cheese, and add
| milk & butter. Probably not quite as easy but next step up and
| you have better control of the ingredients.
| decafninja wrote:
| I loved the Mexican flavored mac & cheese growing up. Sadly I
| think they've discontinued it as I haven't seen it on store
| shelves in more than a decade, and don't see it in their product
| lineup on their web site either.
| sjg007 wrote:
| Sounds like a startup!
| bluedino wrote:
| Buy a bottle of "spicy BBQ rub", and add it your favorite Mac
| and cheese.
| deedub wrote:
| Annie's is owned by General Mills. I wouldn't be surprised it
| if went away around the time of the acquisition. You could try
| asking them for it. :-)
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| I liked their Pizza Pasta, long since discontinued.
|
| The current product lineup is pretty appalling. There's one (1)
| product, but in various different stages of pre-preparation.
| krrrh wrote:
| The big surprise in this article is that she was also the founder
| of Smartfood which she sold to Frito-Lay for $15m. This afforded
| her the space to develop the mac and cheese business, which she
| partly sold to Solera capital who developed it into a business
| that eventually sold to General Mills for $820m. After the deal
| with Solera she put her time into selling vegetables at the local
| farmers market.
|
| It's a nice profile, but I would really love to read more about
| how she took such a simple idea (replacing neon orange cheddar
| powder with white on two different product lines) and quickly
| developed them into massive businesses and brands. She says in
| the article that she didn't like business, but one gets the
| impression that she was exceptionally good at it.
| draw_down wrote:
| Sometimes a person can be really good at something they don't
| really care for or care about.
|
| I can sympathize with her; "business" can mean a lot of things,
| including endless politicking, insincere communication,
| misplaced priorities, etc. And as you grow in importance you
| get lots more inbound attention (mostly undesirable), more
| decisions to make, and so on. Being a figurehead before peacing
| out completely was a good move.
| GordonS wrote:
| I feel this, although on a much smaller and less financially
| beneficial level :)
|
| Every.single.time I write technical documentation, everyone
| tells me how wonderful it is. But I always feel like it took
| me _forever_ to write, and the whole thing felt like a
| horrible, horrible chore; a total bore-fest. Later I read it
| back and I 'm like: "meh, this is so dry and boring!".
|
| But of course, I wasn't writing prose - I was writing a
| reference document, so I suppose it's not meant to be
| anything but boring. And OK, while writing it I might of
| wished I was grating my face instead - but numerous people
| over a period of decades have told me how good I am at it, so
| I suppose I must be, even though I hate it.
| timr wrote:
| What's amazing about this to me is less than she had two
| powdered-cheese-related food product hits, and more that she
| was able to make such a _generic_ product, and have the segment
| to herself for long enough to make a windfall.
|
| These days, anyone who tried to make a product by purchasing
| the core ingredients from two major food suppliers would find
| their offering cloned within days of any kind of traction.
| Consider the hoverboard phenomenon, which is much more complex,
| and still didn't make it a year before there were dozens of
| identical products out of China.
| adventured wrote:
| The cloning problem is as old as consumer products is. It's
| not happening faster, people just don't know the history.
| That's why there were a billion auto makers in old Detroit,
| all cloning eachother rapidly. Those automobiles were more
| complex and difficult to manufacture than hoverboards.
|
| If you're trying to compete in such a saturated segment, you
| have the same competitive targeting as has always existed
| since consumer goods became a mainstream thing. You can try
| to build a brand of some manner, which provides a self-
| constructed moat against competition (this is what Smartfood
| represented). You can lower your prices under everyone else
| and give up margin, in which case you compete through
| executing better than everyone else (being able to survive on
| 3%-5% profit margins). You can leverage a network you
| possess, human connections, to gain an advantage over your
| competition in one of the industry tiers (manufacturing,
| marketing, distribution, etc). You can cheat, bribe, get your
| competition put out of business (Preston Tucker was attacked
| that way; and it's common throughout most of the world). You
| can use a resource advantage, for example capital - you can
| out-spend the competition (economies of scale; locking up
| manufacturing (Apple does this); advertising, which ties to
| brand building), or sue them out of existence if they're far
| weaker (Microsoft was almost bankrupted early in its
| existence with this tactic).
|
| Not much has actually changed structurally in a century about
| how all of these things work.
| scythe wrote:
| Another thing Annie really excelled at was distribution, up
| to and including leaving boxes lying around. Amusingly,
| this too has been done with scooters, but not (yet)
| hoverboards. But distribution is especially important for a
| product like macaroni and cheese which is sold everywhere,
| and Annie's really does have (in my experience) good market
| penetration, which I suspect predates the investor buyout.
| Cars and hoverboards on the other hand are only sold in a
| few places or on the Internet, which means you have to
| compete elsewhere.
| GordonS wrote:
| What's amazing to me, as someone who cooks, is that "mac n'
| cheese" (we call it "macaroni cheese" here in UK) as a pre-
| prepared meal is even a thing in the US.
|
| I consider macaroni cheese as a "comfort food" - one of those
| things that's a perfect ratio of carbs and fat. But it's a
| very easy thing to make, even for a novice, in 20 minutes
| when you're taking your time. I remember my mother teaching
| me how to make it before going to university, the very first
| thing I'd ever cooked - I remember thinking, "wow, is that
| it?!".
|
| And it's the sort of thing that is always going to be at
| least 2x better if you make it yourself, because you use
| actual cheese (sounds so weird saying that as a Brit!), as
| mature as you like, and as much as you like.
|
| I'm very obviously not the target market now, but even as a
| cash and time-strapped student a lifetime ago, whose mum had
| tought him cooking basics just few months previously, I still
| don't get how someone could make a fortune out of this
| -\\_(tsu)_/-
| bluedino wrote:
| I've bought a couple diffferent flavors of Annie's Mac and cheese
| and me and my wife did not especially like it. We prefer Kraft,
| Velveeta, or Cracker Barrel boxed macaroni and cheese (the last
| one is great, you should try it). Even the store brand with the
| liquid cheese pouch is good.
|
| Maybe it's organic or something which makes people like it. Kind
| of the same with with Amy's frozen meals. They are all so bland.
| I've never found one I liked more than the "regular" frozen
| brands, which says a lot as none of those are really very good.
| Johnny555 wrote:
| To be honest, I didn't know there was a real Annie. I've seen,
| and even purchased, the product at Whole Foods, but figured that
| was just a corporate brand.
|
| She seems quite nice and business savvy -- built a good brand,
| then stepped away when it got bigger than she wanted to manage so
| she can focus on the things she really wants to do. And she's
| smart enough to not bad-mouth the new owners, when asked about
| how she thinks about General Mills.
| lightlyused wrote:
| My kids have never had Kraft mac&cheese. Annie's was $1 a box at
| Kroger and had more variety.
| medicineman wrote:
| I bet you don't have a tv too!
| samatman wrote:
| Eh.
|
| They probably have, when visiting friends, and just didn't tell
| you about it.
|
| Source: my Mom was neurotic about food stuff as well.
| distrill wrote:
| they are gravely missing out
| reaperducer wrote:
| Good for you. You're better than everyone else on the planet.
| Have a cookie.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't be an asshole on HN.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| Edit: We've had to ask you this surprisingly many times. I
| don't want to ban you, but after years of this I think it's
| reasonable to expect you to know the rules and follow them.
| lightlyused wrote:
| I don't understand your reply calling me better than everyone
| else on the planet. I don't think that kind is a very kind
| comment (one of the sites guidelines). Aren't you even
| curious why I said what I said? Well here is why: I could get
| Annie's for $1 a box at Kroger. Why would I pay more and it
| is basically the same product with more variety. I've edited
| my comment to reflect that.
| rnd0 wrote:
| >Good for you
|
| No, good for them -the kids, I mean.
| mvh wrote:
| I went on Semester at Sea with her - when I was only 3! My dad
| was a professor on the ship. Apparently she was super nice,
| although, I don't remember, since I was 3.
| m463 wrote:
| What a fascinating way to learn:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semester_at_Sea
|
| "During the semester the ship circumnavigates the globe"...
| mc32 wrote:
| Different and interesting but a full college program is the
| 30-student Deep Springs College. For such a small institution
| it has an interesting list of graduates.
|
| [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Springs_College
| ravenstine wrote:
| I've never had the regular Annie's mac and cheese, but both the
| rice and quinoa versions are pretty bomb. They're better than
| regular macaroni IMO.
| mikeg8 wrote:
| How can you have an opinion that something is better without
| trying the thing you're comparing against?
| ravenstine wrote:
| Sorry, I meant better than wheat-based macaroni and cheese in
| general.
| itomato wrote:
| I remember when the boxes had bumper stickers in them and my
| health food store customers complained about potential toxicity.
|
| Good times.
| rurp wrote:
| I worked at a niche health food grocery store many years ago
| that got a fair share of weird customers. The store introduced
| checkout scanners while I was there; previously the employee at
| the register would simply type in the price of each item. Most
| customers didn't care but a very vocal minority was _outraged_
| about how toxic and dangerous the little scanner lights were.
| jessaustin wrote:
| Is mac and cheese really health food?
| pmiller2 wrote:
| There was a time when "health food" mostly just meant
| "organic."
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| Not really. The macrobiotic fad that was a major part of
| the "health food" movement in the 1960s and 1970s might
| have emphasized brown rice and vegetables, but those were
| usually sourced from non-organic industrial farming. It
| wasn't until some time later that the organic movement
| itself took off and gained attention from health-conscious
| consumers.
| tjr wrote:
| They at least offer some "healthier" renditions of it. But
| overall, I reckon, no.
|
| I'd still rather eat Annie's than Kraft.
| tyingq wrote:
| There seems to be a pretty big niche of _" like some
| additive-heavy food you like, but with less additives"_.
|
| The article reads like this product was at least at one time
| just pasta, milk, butter, and actual cheese (albeit all
| dried/powdered).
| jfengel wrote:
| Yeah... now their ingredients are (from their web site):
|
| Organic Pasta (Organic Wheat Flour), Whey, Cultured Cream,
| Nonfat Milk, Salt, Butter (Pasteurized Cream, Salt), Dried
| Cheddar Cheese (Cultured Pasteurized Milk, Salt, Non-Animal
| Enzymes), Corn Starch, Citric Acid, Annatto Extract (For
| Color), Lactic Acid, Sunflower Lecithin, Sodium Phosphate,
| Silicon Dioxide (For Anticaking).
|
| None of this bothers me, but the declaration "No artificial
| flavors, synthetic colors, or synthetic preservatives"
| seems out of place with those last six ingredients. It's
| technically true, but that's a context where you sorta want
| more than merely "technically true".
|
| I don't think any of them are harmful... but then, neither
| are the artificial and synthetic versions they're
| replacing. They don't strike me as all that different from
| the Kraft ones:
|
| enriched macaroni (wheat flour, durum flour, niacin,
| ferrous sulfate [iron], thiamin mononitrate [vitamin b1],
| riboflavin [vitamin b2], folic acid); cheese sauce mix
| (whey, milkfat, milk protein concentrate, salt, sodium
| triphosphate, contains less than 2% of citric acid, lactic
| acid, sodium phosphate, calcium phosphate, with paprika,
| turmeric, and annatto added for color, enzymes, cheese
| culture).
| tyingq wrote:
| I agree. The upside for Annie's would be that cheese is
| higher on the list, meaning there's more actual cheese.
| Otherwise they do seem similar.
| jfengel wrote:
| I'm a little disappointed that only the wheat is organic.
| I'm unclear on the real balance of benefits of organic-
| ness for vegetable crops -- maybe it's better for the
| planet, maybe it's not. I doubt it's nutritionally
| different.
|
| I do prefer organic animal ingredients, in the hopes that
| the animals themselves are treated slightly better if
| they have to avoid diseases rather than be given
| antibiotics. Unfortunately, I lack the resources to
| verify that (which is why I have cut way back on my
| animal product consumption).
| bpeebles wrote:
| The make and sell a version of their Mac and Cheese that
| includes organic milk, along with most other of the
| ingredients.[0] It normally costs about double (or more)
| as their normal one which only has organic pasta.
|
| [0] https://www.annies.com/product/organic-classic-
| cheddar-mac-c...
| crooked-v wrote:
| > I'm unclear on the real balance of benefits of organic-
| ness for vegetable crops -- maybe it's better for the
| planet, maybe it's not.
|
| The actual meaning of 'organic' when it comes to crops:
|
| > Produce can be called organic if it's certified to have
| grown on soil that had no prohibited substances applied
| for three years prior to harvest. Prohibited substances
| include most synthetic fertilizers and pesticides. In
| instances when a grower has to use a synthetic substance
| to achieve a specific purpose, the substance must first
| be approved according to criteria that examine its
| effects on human health and the environment (see other
| considerations in "Organic 101: Allowed and Prohibited
| Substances").
|
| https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2012/03/22/organic-101-wh
| at-...
|
| It's probably healthier for you, in that there's less
| chance of trace chemicals that might have one effect or
| another that won't be understood or documented for
| decades. It's almost certainly healthier for the planet,
| as it requires a growing process that's more holistic
| than just regularly spraying down fields with various
| fertilizers and pesticides.
| maxerickson wrote:
| I'm kind of fascinated by cattle-washing of fertilizer.
|
| Spread ammonium based fertilizer, you aren't organic.
|
| Spread manure from cattle raised on crops grown using
| ammonium based fertilizer, you are good to go.
| Skunkleton wrote:
| It is not clearly healthier for the planet, at least not
| in terms of greenhouse gas emissions [1].
|
| [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12622-7
| bluGill wrote:
| > It's probably healthier for you,
|
| that isn't true, see below
|
| >in that there's less chance of trace chemicals that
| might have one effect or another that won't be understood
| or documented for decades
|
| You often trade a trace chemical that has been well
| studied and found mostly harmless for a much higher
| concentration of some other chemical that is known as
| somewhat toxic but has been used for hundreds of years.
|
| > It's almost certainly healthier for the planet, as it
| requires a growing process that's more holistic than just
| regularly spraying down fields with various fertilizers
| and pesticides.
|
| It is worse for the planet in other ways. You can't use
| chemicals to destroy weeds, so instead you plow which
| destroys soil microbes, and the tractor pulling the plow
| emits for more CO2 than the whole process of making and
| applying the chemical.
|
| Remember, organic processes that research shows are
| better are adopted by non-organic farmers. The opposite
| is not allowed.
| jfengel wrote:
| That's the thing... they still use fertilizers and
| pesticides. They're just "natural", but copper sulfate,
| pyrethrins, and rotenone don't strike me as all that
| natural. They, too, could have effects that take decades
| to come together. Indeed, some "natural" pesticides, like
| arsenic and nicotine, are already banned.
|
| My problem here is largely with the industrializing of
| the "organic" label. The things that you're really hoping
| for -- crop rotation, co-planting, mulching, no-till, etc
| -- don't really scale well. The organic farms look a lot
| like conventional farms, enormous monocultures. The names
| on the labels are just different.
|
| I'm presenting the negative case here, just to point out
| that I'm really not certain. I'm a big supporter of what
| JI Rodale was doing when he popularized the term
| "organic", but that's not what you get in the grocery
| store. I have hopes that the grocery store is in fact
| ultimately a little better for the planet, but I wish I
| could be more certain.
| greenburger wrote:
| It appears that rotenone (a powerful piscicide) is
| actually banned [0]. Same document also indicated that
| copper sulfate use is limited to specific
| situations/crops. Though, of course, conventional crops
| also have restriction on the use of pesticides,
| presumably they are less restricted.
|
| [0] https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-
| idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f1...
|
| edit: This, of course, only applies to the USDA organic
| program. Products produced elsewhere may have different
| rules.
| crooked-v wrote:
| I think the bigger question is, what was the Kraft
| ingredients list back before Annie's existed? They've
| made a number of recipe changes over the past three
| decades that probably only happened because of the
| 'healthier' competition.
|
| (Here's one, for example:
| https://money.cnn.com/2016/03/08/news/companies/kraft-
| mac-an...)
| jfengel wrote:
| Oh yeah. I'd heard about that just the other day. Neat.
|
| I had spoken to some flavor manufacturers about a decade
| ago, and they say that the shift to "natural" flavors had
| been in the works for some time. Only very bottom-of-the-
| line products were still using artificial flavors.
| (They're very down on this since they don't think it
| makes any difference aside from costing more, and they're
| probably right. But consumers seem to like it better.)
|
| It bothers me that consumers like making changes that
| don't really matter, but don't want to make hard changes
| that do matter (like the fact that neither one of these
| products contains a significant amount of nutritive value
| other than calories). That would mean eating a lot less
| macaroni and cheese.
| mushbino wrote:
| Annie's was more "in the spirit" of the healthfood movement
| that started in the late 60's. It was a small company using
| mostly natural ingredients and it was popular in most
| healthfood stores, if anyone remembers those.
| zikzak wrote:
| I was finicky as a kid and was not catered to so I lived on
| pb on whole wheat, raisins, carrots, and apples (I are
| other foods but didn't enjoy it unless it was total junk -
| very rare in our house).
|
| At some point (mid-80s) my mother decided we would switch
| from Kraft to the peanut butter you would get in bulk at
| these stores. So yes, I remember them. :)
| b450 wrote:
| Stir in a bunch of frozen peas. It's a nice complement and
| you get to tell yourself you're getting some veg.
| bluedino wrote:
| And tuna, or bacon
| deathanatos wrote:
| We'll do that. Sometimes also ham, if we have leftover ham
| from something & need to make use of it somehow before it
| rots.
| rosywoozlechan wrote:
| It's food. It's nutrition. Food isn't medicine. All food is
| healthy if you eat it in reasonable amounts and you make sure
| to get all the nutrients you need. If you're consuming an
| overabundance of carbohydrates then you're not eating
| healthy, but that's not a problem with the food, it's a
| problem with your behavior and food choices.
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| > All food is healthy if you eat it in reasonable amounts
|
| That is true if one is speaking about the basic categories
| like "fats/carbs/sugars" etc., but the concern is really
| about certain additives in processed foods. When ingesting
| a carcinogen, sure it is repeated exposure that raises
| one's odds of developing cancer, but all it might really
| take is just a single time. That is why additives are
| sometimes banned from country to country: because there
| might not even be a "reasonable amount" greater than zero.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| This is exactly what Coca-Cola wants us to believe about
| food.
|
| e.g.
|
| > "Beating obesity will take action by all of us, based on
| one simple common-sense fact: All calories count, no matter
| where they come from, including Coca-Cola and everything
| else with calories," the female announcer said. "And if you
| eat and drink more calories than you burn off, you'll gain
| weight."
|
| There's obviously no difference between the foods and
| everything that compromises us is just due to personal
| failure.
| rosywoozlechan wrote:
| What they said is correct. If you eat more than you burn,
| you gain weight. That's how it works. If you believe
| different you're unlikely to maintain a healthy weight.
| Dieting and maintaining a healthy weight is all about
| energy balance and personal behavior. I've lost weight
| and kept it off for four years now.
| samatman wrote:
| I'm with Coca-Cola on this one, at least as it relates to
| their flagship product.
|
| I drink less than one coke a month. I get the sugar kind,
| because I prefer the mouth feel, but even with corn
| syrup, there is just no way this has any negative health
| consequences for me.
|
| This is part of a very general problem, one without
| obvious solutions: anything which feels good, or is fun,
| will have people who harm themselves by using it too
| much.
|
| Mitigating this (it can't be solved) is a boring, slow,
| social process. Soda vending machines probably shouldn't
| be in schools. _Maybe_ fast food restaurants should stop
| bundling a soda for basically-free? But it _is_ basically
| free, pennies per cup, and I 'm wary of anything which
| forces a huge corporation to not pass that on to the
| consumer. I've seen no evidence that soda taxes are
| effective, it strikes me as just a regressive tax.
|
| So we're left with the long slog of convincing people
| that it's a bad idea to drink a soda with every meal.
| Which appears to be working... slowly.
|
| When I gain excess weight, it's bread. And not the low-
| status peasant bread with dough conditioners and added
| sugar: no I get the fancy sourdough bread, or bagels, and
| just eat more of it than I really should. There is only
| one person who can prevent this, and he does my grocery
| shopping.
| lupire wrote:
| Thr point is that if Coke's customers tools Coke's
| advice, Coke would be a far less profitable business.
|
| They are bluffing and they know that.
| NikolaeVarius wrote:
| So what they're saying is true?
| sneak wrote:
| > _There's been much debate and reporting about the ethical
| dilemmas that arise when an enormous company like General Mills
| acquires an ostensibly environmentally conscious, organic brand
| like Annie's, whose mission is upholding "sustainable
| agriculture, organic ingredients, no artificial ingredients [and]
| support for farmers and communities."_
|
| This was an important point in this article for me. Trademarks
| (as well as copyrights) are abstractions that were arbitrarily
| invented (and then enforced via law) that few seem to question.
| This is just the way things are done.
|
| The idea that Annie can start a brand called Annie's, following
| Annie's (in the traditional sense, not Annie's(r)) principles and
| procedures, and then sell that brand to some other organization
| that has nothing to do with Annie, that is still sold and
| marketed as "Annie's(r)", seems a little bit crazy and perhaps
| wrong to me.
|
| If you remove the "(r)", putting the term "Annie's" on the box is
| now factually incorrect: it's not Annie doing it, and it's not
| Annie's. It's General Mills'. It is, in effect, a lie, even
| though under trademark and corporate law, everything is A-OK.
|
| There is a bug in this system somewhere.
| darepublic wrote:
| This Annie's Mac and cheese is considerably better than Kraft imo
| city41 wrote:
| Some similarities between Annie and Burt of Burt's Bees:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burt_Shavitz
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| That's a great story. She sounds like a cool woman.
|
| I get tired of the tales of the rapacious and deplorable behavior
| of so many people in business, so it's refreshing to hear stories
| like this.
| zucked wrote:
| I can totally respect the desire to step back and do your own
| thing at your own speed. Rock on, Annie - do what fills your
| bucket.
| jerf wrote:
| "She boiled elbow pasta from Kraft, measured an identical amount
| of white cheddar cheese as was in the Kraft packet, added butter
| and milk, and then... "Whoa!" was the summation of her first
| bites."
|
| I've done that too, with cheese powder from Amazon. It does seem
| incrementally better. If there's a "secret ingredient" to
| macaroni & cheese, it's just the cheese powder which you can
| readily buy by the pound, and then use for other things. Like
| putting it on your popcorn (add onion powder to really round it
| out).
|
| The nice thing is that you end up with a lot more versatility
| when your cheese powder isn't confined to a Mac&Cheese container.
| I also like to use it as part of cheese sauces for broccoli and
| such. It's not a staple in my kitchen, but I probably manage to
| go through a pound in about 6-9 months, and it still generally
| tastes good even at the end.
| azinman2 wrote:
| If you're making Mac & cheese from scratch, why not just use
| real cheese? Or multiple cheeses (and herbs and...)?
| [deleted]
| lejohnq wrote:
| Using real cheese is surprisingly difficult because it
| doesn't melt in the nice creamy way without additions.
|
| Sodium citrate for example helps your cheese melt creamily.
|
| The powder likely contains the right balance of additions
| that give you a great creamy mac & cheese.
|
| A good reference:
| https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2016/11/sodium-
| citrate-b...
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| Baking is usually best when making mac&cheese with actual
| cheese.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| Baked mac & cheese is just plain better. There, I said
| it.
| archagon wrote:
| In lieu of sodium citrate, I think you can just put a bit
| of a Kraft single in your sauce to emulsify it.
| lupire wrote:
| It's not from scratch, it's from cheese powder.
|
| May as well ask, why not curdle the cheese yourself?
| w0mbat wrote:
| Kraft's own cheese powder is incredibly bland by comparison
| with Annie's. Whenever I happen to eat Kraft mac and cheese, I
| am surprised by how flavorless it is, but maybe some people
| like it that way.
| dualboot wrote:
| Nostalgia is funny that way.
| w0mbat wrote:
| I think the formula for Kraft must be different in the UK
| where I grew up, vs the USA where I live now.
|
| I have already proved that US Kit Kats (made by
| Reese/Hershey) have almost no chocolate smell compared to
| Euro Kit Kats (made by Nestle) which have a rich cocoa
| aroma.
| sp332 wrote:
| Kraft did change their recipe drastically in 2016.
| https://money.cnn.com/2016/03/08/news/companies/kraft-
| mac-an... Despite the PR, it is noticeably different.
| yellowapple wrote:
| I mean, sometimes that's a feature rather than a bug. The
| blandness can tip the scales in favor of some fussy eater
| actually eating it, and makes it easier to cover up with
| other ingredients (butter and black pepper make anything
| taste better, and Kraft Dinner ain't an exception).
| sneak wrote:
| Fun trick: adding a pinch of salt and a pinch of MSG to most
| foods (that haven't already employed this trick from the
| factory) instantly multiplies "flavor" (for savory foods) by
| 2x in almost all cases.
|
| It's sort of like the loudness trick for headphones.
|
| Even for sweet foods, adding a pinch of salt is sometimes an
| _insane_ flavor-enhancer. It doesn 't just work on caramel.
| bluedino wrote:
| The .33 cents box of Kraft or the 2.00 box of Kraft? The
| latter is much, much better
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