[HN Gopher] Making Librem 5 Apps [video]
___________________________________________________________________
Making Librem 5 Apps [video]
Author : ruph123
Score : 245 points
Date : 2021-04-11 14:11 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (puri.sm)
(TXT) w3m dump (puri.sm)
| swiley wrote:
| I'm a little annoyed it took this long to get reasonable
| smartphones, but I'm so glad they're finally here.
|
| --A happy pinephone user
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| You are happy with a phone that won't run an authorized Signal
| app, takes 5-10 seconds just to open the screen to turn wi-fi
| on/off on Mobian, and whose map apps are all barebones tech
| demos compared to OSMAnd on Android? I have a PinePhone too and
| occasionally hack on it, but I wouldn't call it a "reasonable"
| smartphone yet when the software is still so half-baked and,
| unfortunately, it hasn't succeeded in attracting very much of a
| dev community (as the existing devs sometimes complain).
|
| Maybe I'm so disappointed because I remember the Nokia N900.
| Now _that_ was a reasonable Linux smartphone, except for the
| blobs.
| hedora wrote:
| > _mobian_
|
| It's hardly fair to blame pine for gtk issues when they're
| shipping kde by default. I can install non-working software
| (even broken android) on any jailbreakable phone.
| swiley wrote:
| Phosh gets way too much attention on the pinephone, it's not
| a good DE and it's very slow. You can run normal Linux X11
| DEs with no compositing and they are very fast. I use FVWM
| and most things open very quickly, Firefox takes a couple
| seconds.
|
| All people like me want is something that lets us run tmux
| and the rest of the apps we run on our thinkpads and the
| Pinephone does that very well.
| darkwater wrote:
| How can you use a smartphone mini screen with tmux? Is it
| usable?
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| It's not the DE that makes things fast or slow (although
| disabling composition may indeed help with making GTK3 apps
| run faster on the PinePhone, but that's mostly because GTK3
| renders in software and it bottlenecks on PinePhone's RAM
| bandwidth).
| kop316 wrote:
| Out of curiousity, what distro are you running?
| fsflover wrote:
| I guess it's SXMo.
| ruph123 wrote:
| I mean its two different things: Nokia a mega corp (at the
| time) and Pine64 (a few hardware enthusiasts + small
| overworked dev community).
|
| I get your frustrations and as a PinePhone owner myself I
| would not consider it anywhere near usable as a real
| Smartphone replacement.
|
| However after installing Arch it is pretty snappy and has
| certainly sparked some new hope in me. I really recommend you
| to check it out.
|
| For Signal there is (or will be) Axolotl [-1] which looks
| promising and when it comes to developer support both KDE and
| GNOME devs show some support for it. E.g. GNOME recently
| announced libadwaita [0]. Give it some time and check out the
| Arch release for PinePhone: [1].
|
| [-1]: https://github.com/nanu-c/axolotl
|
| [0]: https://aplazas.pages.gitlab.gnome.org/blog/blog/2021/03
| /31/...
|
| [1]: https://github.com/dreemurrs-embedded/Pine64-Arch
| fsflover wrote:
| > phone that won't run an authorized Signal app
|
| This is a fault of the Signal developer, not of the
| Pinephone.
|
| > takes 5-10 seconds just to open the screen to turn wi-fi
| on/off on Mobian
|
| It's the beta release. It's gonna be faster with GPU
| acceleration AFAIK.
|
| > Maybe I'm so disappointed because I remember the Nokia
| N900. Now that was a reasonable Linux smartphone, except for
| the blobs.
|
| But how much time passed after the release until it became a
| reasonable smartphone? Give Pinephone some time.
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| > This is a fault of the Signal developer, not of the
| Pinephone.
|
| Whoever's fault it is, is immaterial. The PinePhone is
| still lacking as a phone for at least those who use Signal.
|
| > It's the beta release. It's gonna be faster with GPU
| acceleration AFAIK.
|
| Can you cite that? The problem is that Mobian's stack is
| based on a lot of GNOME libs that have not been optimized
| very much and run slow even on desktop, so GPU acceleration
| won't help much. Before you mention the other available
| OSes on the PinePhone, UBports is obsolete, bitrotting
| tech.
|
| > how much time passed after the release until it became a
| reasonable smartphone?
|
| The N900 was a reasonable smartphone immediately upon its
| release, at least in terms of being responsive and having
| core apps and functionality that people expected at the
| time. Nokia had a larger team of developers working on
| Maemo than there are working on PinePhone OSes.
| fsflover wrote:
| > Whoever's fault it is, is immaterial. The PinePhone is
| still lacking as a phone for at least those who use
| Signal.
|
| You can run it in Anbox.
|
| > Can you cite that?
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26569666
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| > You can run it in Anbox.
|
| Anbox is not considered a reasonable standard solution
| for running anything on the PinePhone due to its resource
| requirements. Also, that citation you give supports my
| claim above.
|
| I understand that you are running a single-issue advocacy
| account here on HN, but over the last several weeks you
| have been really embarrassing your own cause with these
| attempts to sweep major flaws under the carpet. Yes, the
| PinePhone may offer the prospect of someday being a
| reasonable libre phone alternative (assuming it isn't a
| stillborn project, as I fear), but you keep painting a
| rosier picture of it now than is warranted.
| fsflover wrote:
| You are right that I advocate for the GNU/Linux phones.
| However I advocate for Librem 5 more, and it should be
| performant enough for most use cases, including Signal in
| Anbox.
|
| Otherwise you are right and Pinephone is too slow for
| such things. But, again, this is a fault of Moxie and imo
| effectively shows that Signal is not free software (no
| freedom to run).
| butz wrote:
| What about web app support on Librem 5? Is it possible to add web
| apps to homescreen? App development using web technologies might
| be more accessible for developers.
| fsflover wrote:
| Yes, it supports web apps: https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-web-
| apps/.
| pydry wrote:
| How easy would it be to build anbox, so you could run Android
| apps?
| admax88q wrote:
| Running anbox on Linux phone just feels like a less efficient
| way to run android.
| fsflover wrote:
| > less efficient
|
| But much more secure.
| fsflover wrote:
| It already works for many apps: https://puri.sm/posts/anbox-on-
| the-librem-5/.
| axelthegerman wrote:
| Why do people always want to run all their Android apps?! Why
| not iOS and Windows apps too??
|
| Hkw about we figure out which apps are missing and build them
| natively. Linux phones still need work to be opimized for the
| hardware, lets not add more abstractions and slow it down by
| emulating proprietary runtimes
| karlicoss wrote:
| Sadly often it's necessary for various proprietary apps like
| banking, government apps etc
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| Because access to mainstream proprietary mobile apps is
| becoming increasingly necessary to function in modern
| society, and people know that the iOS versions are a lost
| cause.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| You're right, of course. And notably in the case of Android
| apps, they often also depend on Play Services and therefore
| require agreeing to Google's ToS.
|
| Folks: if you don't like two major tech giants having so
| much power, push back against requiring apps like that when
| you see it. This is how they get so much power. (I'm
| especially worried about government apps requiring Android
| with Play Services or iOS.)
| kop316 wrote:
| Unfortunately, this discounts apps folks depend on made by a
| company that they need, and that company won't build an app
| like that.
|
| One example could be like a banking app.
|
| One that really annoyed me was my school forced Duo Mobile on
| us. Duo Mobile uses HOTP, but they do not officially support
| third party 2FA.
|
| I was lucky some folks already reverse engineered the
| protocol so I could use a third party 2FA app.
| blendergeek wrote:
| > Why do people always want to run all their Android apps?
|
| Android already has a complete set of phone-ready apps
| available.
|
| > Why not iOS and Windows apps too??
|
| We already have Wine for running Windows apps.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > Why do people always want to run all their Android apps?!
| Why not iOS and Windows apps too??
|
| Yeah, that'd be great! Unfortunately Darling isn't running
| GUI apps yet even for desktop apps, but the start is there.
| Windows apps are frequently compiled for x86, so we'd need to
| plug together WINE+qemu, but it should work. Windows apps
| also aren't designed for mobile like Android, but in many
| cases I'd bet it can be made to work.
| qwertox wrote:
| This is what I want. How good is the hardware?
| fsflover wrote:
| https://forums.puri.sm/t/comparing-specs-of-upcoming-
| linux-p....
| qwertox wrote:
| Now this did turn me off. A 3GB RAM device from 2017?
| ben-schaaf wrote:
| The iPhone 8 was released in 2017 with 2GB of ram, the 8
| plus with 3GB.
| indymike wrote:
| In 2017, only the top of the line flagship phones would
| have 4, 6 or 8gb of RAM. 3GB was used in a lot of "flagship
| killer" phones because Android still ran well with 2GB and
| 3GB would give you 80% of the benefit of a $1200 phone for
| $250.
| fabrice_d wrote:
| The amount of RAM is not the weakness of this device. The
| issue is the very outdated chipset (Allwinner A64) and its
| Mali 400 GPU (no GLES 3 support for instance).
|
| Let's hope the pinephone2 will fix all that!
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| You're talking about the PinePhone. The Librem 5 uses
| i.MX 8M Quad, which is a significantly more powerful SoC
| than A64.
| ognarb wrote:
| But also significantly more power hungry SoC :(
| fsflover wrote:
| And larger battery.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| Not really? Librem 5 easily beats the PinePhone when it
| comes to active usage time on battery (although it does
| have a battery with higher capacity). Where PinePhone
| currently wins is suspend time with the CPU completely
| turned off, as Librem 5 does not use suspend at all right
| now and just relies on cpuidle.
| fsflover wrote:
| You do not need a Java VM to run apps on GNU/Linux phones
| (unlike on Android). It works pretty well with this RAM
| according to many videos.
| qwertox wrote:
| I don't know. If I'd buy a phone which I really could
| make mine, I'd love it to have a hardware which would
| still be well usable in about 5 years from now, even with
| my increased demand for resources as I expand my
| possibilities with the device.
|
| At least 8GB RAM for all this stuff to remain in memory.
| Fat Python processes collecting GPS and mobile
| connectivity data (like RSSI, which cell towers are
| nearby), storing this in a MongoDB instance on the
| device, collecting accelerometer data and
| processing+storing it, there's a lot I'd like to do.
| fsflover wrote:
| Unfortunately such device does not currently exist. If
| you want it to be developed you better support the
| existing GNU/Linux phones...
|
| Perhaps the next Librem 5 batch "Fir" will have more RAM:
| https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-
| wiki/-/wikis/Freque... (and you can preorder it now).
| SwiftyBug wrote:
| This is quite impressive. I've always found the iOS development
| experience very smooth, but after seeing this I'm not sure about
| that anymore.
| I_am_tiberius wrote:
| Would love to be able to write apps in Typescript.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| What's stopping you then? If you can do it on your desktop, you
| can also do it on the Librem 5.
| jodoherty wrote:
| The key takeaway to me is that developing mobile apps for the
| Librem 5 on the Librem 5 is a first class development workflow.
|
| This is great. Not having to worry about setting up toolchains on
| a separate platform, cross-compiling, and then
| signing/transferring apps and running remote debugging sessions
| makes it easy to just build and test apps.
| sneak wrote:
| No signing also means that the workflow for developing malware
| for the platform is exactly the same, too. :)
|
| My issue with the Apple ecosystem is not the cryptographic
| protections - it's with the fact that the keys aren't mine.
| simias wrote:
| I'm not sure I understand. Crypto won't protect you from
| malware by itself, it just creates a chain of custody. App
| store apps are not secure because they're signed, they're
| secure because they're signed _by Apple_.
|
| For the librem it's just like a desktop computer, don't
| install software from untrusted sources, keep your stuff
| updated and you should be fine.
| swiley wrote:
| Meh, signing by Apple really doesn't mean more than Apple
| _looked_ (visually) at a running instance of the app and
| said "eh it doesn't look like it's breaking the rules."
|
| They don't do any instrumentation and often the developers
| themselves don't even understand what all the binary dylibs
| they're including do.
| simias wrote:
| I don't own an Apple device myself but don't they have a
| pretty good track record when it comes to the security of
| their apps? Plus all the guidelines they've been
| enforcing lately when it comes to user tracking etc...
|
| At any rate my general point still stands I think, it
| doesn't really matter whether librem apps are signed or
| not, what matters is where you put your trust. I'm sure
| some package managers (first party or otherwise) will be
| able to provide a curated experience if the platform is
| successful, like what linux distros offer.
| sneak wrote:
| Being able to outsource the decision about what is or isn't
| an "untrusted source" to a security expert is valuable.
|
| Platforms that only run signed code permit that.
| fsflover wrote:
| > Platforms that only run signed code permit that.
|
| Like GNU/Linux repositories?
| sneak wrote:
| No, those only distribute signed code. If unsigned code
| makes its way on to your system outside of those
| repositories, your GNU/Linux system will happily execute
| it, unsandboxed save for outdated POSIX uid/gid
| permissions.
| fsflover wrote:
| Except restricting what a user can do with their system
| does not significantly improve security. It removes the
| freedom and powers walled gardens.
| andrepd wrote:
| Platforms that don't run only sign code also permit that.
| franga2000 wrote:
| You're mixing developing and distribution. You don't need any
| (meaningful) signing to develop for Android and not even for
| iOS (although testing is harder there). App signing comes in
| only when end-users are installing your apps.
|
| As for malware installation on Librem, that is a separate
| question. If you don't give apps root access and only install
| from the repos, you're about as secure as on Android or iOS.
| Once you start installing from unknown sources, however, it's
| true that you're screwed - but that's because of the
| permission system, not signing.
| turblety wrote:
| I don't understand this line of thinking. There is loads of
| malware in the Apple Appstore.
|
| https://www.techradar.com/news/apple-app-store-is-
| apparently...
| [deleted]
| DangitBobby wrote:
| My dad is very suspicious of Google and concerned about privacy
| on his Android phone. Is there a Linux phone that's polished
| enough for the non-savvy user?
|
| Also, I have a couple of simple containerized apps that I run on
| my home network. Would I have any trouble running these on a
| Pinephone? Would love to hear from anyone with experience.
| mattl wrote:
| Sounds like an iPhone would be suitable then.
| wffurr wrote:
| >> Is there a Linux phone that's polished enough for the non-
| savvy user?
|
| No.
| Kelamir wrote:
| You could disable Google, etc., related apps via ADB and block
| internet access for applications with Netguard or something. I
| blacklist all by default and allow only those I need. Makes for
| improved security.
| Netcob wrote:
| It's only a matter of time until we can develop smartwatch apps -
| on our smartwatch.
| dariosalvi78 wrote:
| Look at Bangle JS, it has JS interpreter on it. There is no IDE
| on it, but I don't see it impossible that one connects a
| Bluetooth keyboard and opens up the console on it.
| fsflover wrote:
| https://www.pine64.org/pinetime/
| zepto wrote:
| Why would you post that when it clearly can't be programmed
| on device?
| fit2rule wrote:
| It _can_ be programmed, on-device:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuk9Nmr3Jo8
|
| WaspOS is pretty powerful!
|
| https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=9017
| fsflover wrote:
| It shows the path to that. At least it _can_ be programmed.
| zepto wrote:
| > At least it can be programmed.
|
| You say that as though it was an achievement.
|
| Most smartwatches can be programmed. The pinetime is
| about the hardest one to develop for, with the least
| available resources.
| fsflover wrote:
| > Most smartwatches can be programmed.
|
| I am not aware of any other smartwatches where you can
| reflash the OS.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/02/04/watchy-pebble-
| like-s... and https://www.cnx-
| software.com/2021/04/07/lilygo-open-smartwat... come to
| mind
| zepto wrote:
| I'm not aware of any other smartwatches where you _have
| to._
| fit2rule wrote:
| Not true. You can write code for the PineTime, _on_ the
| PineTime.
|
| You just haven't learned about this yet.
| bitwize wrote:
| Imagine my excitement when I realized I could quickly develop
| apps for my PinePhone, _on_ my PinePhone.
|
| 1) ssh -X in to PinePhone over usb
|
| 2) start Emacs on my desktop's X desktop
|
| 3) code it up in Tcl/Tk
|
| 4) for testing, set DISPLAY=:0 and run the script
|
| 5) Profit from rapid, iterative development right on the device!
| m463 wrote:
| I have a librem 5.
|
| At first I tried setting it up with a keyboard, mouse & monitor,
| but it was a little fiddly to get everything usable.
|
| I had a USB-C hub from a macbook with PD + ethernet + hdmi, but I
| couldn't get the hdmi display to sync.
|
| So I got another usb-c hub with ethernet + dp (+other ports) and
| that worked.
|
| amazing: my phone desktop showing up on my 4k monitor!
|
| So, that was pretty cool, but I still had a lot of fiddling to do
| - like which display the app comes up on, and how to switch
| things around. Also sometimes the display wasn't recognized when
| I wanted it do - I think I had to reboot with the display plugged
| in, because hotplug sometimes didn't work.
|
| (There have been software updates since I tried this - it may be
| better now).
|
| However, at the same time I ordered the second hub, I also got a
| $15 USB-C + PD + ethernet dongle.
|
| Turns out that was _really_ what I wanted. Let the phone be a
| phone, sit there charging and ssh /scp into it from my regular
| system. I can access the entire filesystem.
|
| All of this really drives things home about Apple.
|
| When the iPhone came out, apple was breaking new ground, so
| people even accepted web apps, because before they had nothing.
| And with quality/security, the app store made sense.
|
| But after over a decade you realize that the apple ecosystem is
| more about control.
|
| Why can't I write my own apps (without asking permission/eula).
| Why can't I _run_ my own apps without either signing up as a
| developer and paying, or renew some certificate every 7 days? Why
| can 't I plug all the things into USB and use them?
|
| Apple has mindfully denied a lot of utility for their users. I
| thought maybe the mac usability would trickle over to iOS, but it
| seems the iOS lockdown has trickled over to the mac instead.
|
| EDIT: wait. Let me say "Thank You" to the purism folks for doing
| this. It took a few years, but this phone makes me really really
| happy. I figure in a year or two it will let normal folks happily
| run their lives ios/android-free.
| tediousdemise wrote:
| So, effectively--your phone is your computer? This is awesome.
| This is what general purpose computing was meant to be.
|
| Marketing caused us to regress to the fragmented landscape of
| gimmicky special purpose devices that we have today.
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| On recent droids this works surprisingly well. I have a
| keyboard in my bag instead of my laptop now.
| nvllsvm wrote:
| A shame Google's Pixels don't support wired video output.
| cbozeman wrote:
| > I figure in a year or two it will let normal folks happily
| run their lives ios/android-free.
|
| I hate to be "that guy" - and it seems like I always have to be
| "that guy" - but this will never allow "normal" folks to
| happily run their lives iOS / Android free.
|
| The reason is because the collection, categorization, and
| collation of data on smartphone users is what drives the whole
| thing forward. It's the gas. The petrol. The solar power. The
| wind turbines. Without apps collecting and using data about
| their users, everything ends up having to be monetized
| differently and people have already shown that's not going to
| happen. You can't even get people to pay a few dollars a month
| for the single most important "app" on the Internet - email.
|
| Sorry, but Librem 5 will never be more than a fun developer's
| toy. Most people are honestly pretty lazy and the sad simple
| fact is that they do not want to be challenged at all ever.
| They want to show up somewhere... bang on their keyboard like a
| monkey, or swing their hammer like a chimp, or smack their
| buttons like a macaque, and go home eight hours later, and then
| in 7-14 days, collect their bananas and eat them while watching
| _Ow! My Balls!_ , or a slightly more advanced version of it
| like, _American Ninja Warrior_.
|
| While the rest of nature is in a desperate bid for survival-at-
| all-costs that is consistently wiping out the slowest and the
| dumbest, through our struggle, we've managed to regress... we
| allow the dumbest and the least fit to survive. I know a bunch
| of wannabe evolutionary biologists here are going to throw
| around ideas they don't really understand, like, "Fitness
| doesn't mean being the smartest or the strongest, just the
| organism most able to reproduce!" No, that's just one single
| strategy, and not even always an optimal one.
|
| This isn't an argument for killing off the dumb and weak, of
| course. I'm merely pointing out that most people have zero
| desire to be truly challenged, on anything, ever. That's
| exactly _why_ they want their Samsung walled Android experience
| and their Apple walled iOS experience.
|
| I wish we lived in a world where everyone spent a few dozen to
| a few hundred hours learning hard stuff to thereby make their
| lives permanently easier, but we don't. Most would rather spend
| a few hours doing relatively monotonous stuff over and over
| than actually learn something new.
|
| OR
|
| Maybe I'm just being an old curmudgeon. I guess we'll see.
| narag wrote:
| _OR
|
| Maybe I'm just being an old curmudgeon. I guess we'll see._
|
| When predicting the future, ego gets involved. We invest at
| least a little of our pride. We want to be right.
|
| The problem is you could be both right and wrong at the same
| time. The outcome could be what you foresee, but not for the
| reasons you think.
|
| What if Librem 5 will never be more than a fun developer's
| toy, but for other unrelated reasons? Sorry, that's cheating.
| cbozeman wrote:
| Okay there's about a dozen reasons Librem 5 will never be
| more than a fun developer's toy. Here's just a few.
|
| 1) It's difficult to use as a daily driver even for
| experienced people. It's impossible for the average person.
|
| 2) It's not a premium device with a big beautiful screen,
| lots of RAM, the fastest processor, tons of storage, etc.
| So it doesn't attract the non-technical enthusiast crowd.
|
| 3) It doesn't have brand appeal like Samsung or Apple. It's
| not consider a "status" item by the general population. So
| it doesn't attract a beautiful young fashion model who
| wants to be seen with an iPhone 12 Pro Max XL Super Duper.
|
| 4) It runs an operating system most people have never heard
| of - Linux. Most people know Android, most people know what
| iOS is, or have at least heard of it. The people I
| mentioned above don't know Linux. They especially don't
| understand what makes _this_ brand of Linux "special".
|
| 5) In order to this to eventually overtake the world, the
| entire world has to shift to a paid model for literally
| everything, because how else are you going to fund it?
| Everybody's exchanging data with everyone. Data about
| users. No exchange means increased prices across the board,
| for everything, because no data means no targeted
| advertisement. Hell, you can barely do _untargeted_
| advertisement with no data.
|
| How's that? Happy now?
| fsflover wrote:
| > Without apps collecting and using data about their users,
| everything ends up having to be monetized differently and
| people have already shown that's not going to happen.
|
| F-Droid and GNU/Linux repositories work flawlessly without
| any ads and, moreover, have much less malware, if at all.
| danpalmer wrote:
| > I wish we lived in a world where everyone spent a few dozen
| to a few hundred hours learning hard stuff to thereby make
| their lives permanently easier, but we don't. Most would
| rather spend a few hours doing relatively monotonous stuff
| over and over than actually learn something new.
|
| I get this, but I'm not sure that using a phone that exposes
| a full Linux system is the answer here. In fact I think for
| many people one could make the opposite argument - spend a
| few hours learning how to use an iPhone and never have to
| worry about many classes of problems.
|
| Yes, many people use iPhones because they don't have the
| ability to make an informed decision, but many people also
| have all the skills to make that decision and still choose
| them. It's all trade-offs, and for some, walled gardens and
| EULAs are not a problem, and having a camera and (closed
| source) software that allows better photos of their kids is
| far more important.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| > Most people are honestly pretty lazy and the sad simple
| fact is that they do not want to be challenged at all ever.
|
| I (fellow curmudgeon perhaps) totally agree
| toomanyducks wrote:
| Honestly, I have no idea why I'm so surprised. This is what
| happens when you put desktop dev tools on an (albeit modified)
| desktop desktop environment on an (albeit modified) desktop
| operating system on a phone. Can't wait for these devices to
| mature!
| indymike wrote:
| My phone has been at compute parity with my i5 Macbook air for
| at least the last two phones I've had. I've also been able to
| plug my phone in to a monitor/keyboard using the same usb-c
| dock I use for the air and be pretty productive in a pinch.
| Love the idea of having a real desktop environment instead of
| Android, though.
| zepto wrote:
| More of this, is exactly the competition Apple needs.
|
| Why doesn't Google make an on-device Android studio?
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| Samsung Galaxy used to have something like this that was in the
| right direction, but I don't know if they ever did anything
| with it.
| himujjal wrote:
| linux on dex? I seriously dont know why they pulled it off? I
| mean if they had put some effort into the whole thing,
| laptops would be a thing of the past. Plug your (13gb ram,
| 512 gb storage & powerful arm cpu) mobile to just about any
| display device with a keyboard and boom! You have a laptop.
| It was on Samsung Galaxy Note.
|
| I mean the first versions are of course not of the best
| quality. But in maybe 5 years, it would have be an universal
| feature.
|
| Alas. They discontinued the project.
| curt15 wrote:
| How does the write endurance of phone-grade flash memory
| compare with that of desktop SSDs?
| ruph123 wrote:
| And of course the same goes for the PinePhone (albeit slower). I
| especially like that you can choose different languages for
| development although this is not a Librem/PinePhone feature of
| course.
| eptcyka wrote:
| Had I put 600$ in the S&P500 when I ordered my Librem 5, I would
| have 1068$ in S&P500 shares. Now, I have occasional spam in my
| inbox about Librem 5 related blog posts. I expected to at least
| get a shipping date 2 years later. I understand the times have
| been tough, but nobody's told me if my order is cancelled or if
| it's still being worked on. I've seen some people receive their
| Evergreen phones. I'm OK with waiting, but being left out in the
| cold is starting to get to me.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| Currently orders from the original 2017 campaign are still
| being fulfilled - they're all expected to be shipped by May and
| those people already got their shipping estimates long time
| ago. More recent orders should come in next few months, but
| there's no accurate shipping estimate for them just yet since
| there's a SoC shortage on the market that makes lead times
| fluctuate a lot at the moment. I think it's relatively safe to
| say that the goal is to handle the whole queue and have stock
| available at least by the end of the year, and if all goes well
| it should happen much sooner (but you can't really be sure
| about anything in this pandemic)
| yosito wrote:
| That's it. I'm ordering a Librem 5!
| unnouinceput wrote:
| Let me know how much it costed you, all in all, not just the
| price on their site. Also when you'll get it on your hands,
| physically, not what they say initially on the delivery note.
| [deleted]
| atat7024 wrote:
| Why not wait until they have a stomachable security model?
| m4lvin wrote:
| Do you think that hardware changes are needed for that? If it
| is only a matter of software, then buying now will not hurt.
|
| For example, full disk encryption seems to be coming up:
| https://puri.sm/posts/sneak-peek-of-the-next-pureos-
| release-...
| yosito wrote:
| Me being in control of my own encryption keys seems like a
| more stomachable security model than letting Google or Apple
| profile me based on every single thing that happens on my
| device. What would you like to see in Librem's security
| model?
| jvanveen wrote:
| Just be aware of the long and untransparent waiting queue;
| afaik orders from 2017 backers are still being processed.
| fsflover wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26771857
| kop316 wrote:
| This is also true of the pinephone. My entire dev set up for for
| the pinephone is on my pinephone. All I do is hook up a USB cable
| and SSH into it (which makes testing a lot easier since mmsd
| needs to talk to the modem).
|
| What is really neat though is any apps that I develop on my
| pinephone work on the librem 5 too! Some of the bugs found and
| fixed on mmsd are from Librem 5 users, and I have been
| collaborating with the chatty dev (I assume he has a Librem 5,
| I'm 90% sure he is a Purism employee) with the work I do on the
| pinephone.
| Guest42 wrote:
| I am looking to purchase either (or both) of those phones.
| Would you recommend buying one of them now or waiting until a
| future release? It seems that both companies have extended the
| release dates a bit.
| fsflover wrote:
| If you order Librem 5 right now, you get it "in a few
| months", so the software will be much more mature (while
| hardware already is). Pine64 currently accepts preorders only
| for the "Beta-version" of Pinephone.
| hedora wrote:
| Pinephone's "Preorder" is mostly just to scare off people
| that want the software to work, from what I can tell.
|
| If you order a pinephone today, they estimate they'll ship
| it to you in late April.
|
| Also, their "beta phone" is the Nth revision of shipping
| hardware.
| Guest42 wrote:
| I see. It seems as though the price tag has gone up
| compared to the dev versions. With that price I imagine
| they'd want things to be stable. I haven't looked to see if
| they have a vcs or chats to see what types of issues are
| being addressed.
| fsflover wrote:
| https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-
| wiki/-/wikis/Freque...
| the_duke wrote:
| I'm personally waiting for the next PinePhone iteration with
| a better chipset, since the CPU is pretty slow for even
| budget phone standards.
|
| Combined with software improvements that will hopefully give
| a relatively smooth experience.
|
| Then again, the PinePhone is so cheap that it's not a big
| risk either way.
| fsflover wrote:
| And why wouldn't you order Librem 5 now?
| the_duke wrote:
| The Librem 5 is a bit more than I'd want to spend on an
| alternate device.
|
| Online banking 2FA and some other apps sadly tie me to
| Android.
|
| Although that might change if Anbox works (
| https://puri.sm/posts/anbox-on-the-librem-5/ ).
| Guest42 wrote:
| I have 3 android 9 apps that are important to me. Running
| those would allow me to switch forever. I went to the
| anbox site briefly but didn't quite see a list of images.
| swiley wrote:
| You can't compare performance on the pinephone to Android
| phones because the OSes and app ecosystems are completely
| different: You just run Linux desktop environments and apps
| that are designed to run without hardware acceleration.
|
| I run FVWM and Firefox on mine and it works very well.
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| Don't hold your breath on the next PinePhone iteration. On
| the forums, people expect a new hardware generation to come
| in only 3-5 years from now. Pine64 seems to assume that the
| hardware is fine for now, it is only the software that
| hasn't been developed and optimized enough.
|
| You mention Anbox in another post here. Don't expect that
| to allow you to run banking apps on Librem/PinePhone, as
| banking apps increasingly require the Android phone to pass
| Safety Net, and Anbox doesn't.
| kop316 wrote:
| I would say "Yes", but I also have two Pinephones and have a
| Librem 5 order in the queue. One pinephone is my "dev" phone
| (since mmsd tinkers with core mobile networking stuff, I
| don't want developing to interfere with my normal usage).
|
| I do not think either the Pinephone nor Librem 5 will have
| any more significant hardware changes, so the
| Pinephone/Librem 5 you buy now will be the same one you buy
| in a year.
|
| If you're unsure, I think buying a Pinephone is a safe bet
| since its $150 for you to try, and if its not for you, you
| can probably get your money back by selling it.
|
| What do you want to use it for?
|
| For me, Mobian/Pinephone does everything I need it to do for
| typical daily usage except for Chatty supporting MMS (and
| hopefully this will be fixed within a month or so).
| Guest42 wrote:
| I care most about 2 android 9 apps I have that run in the
| background and use Bluetooth. Other than that sometimes I
| like to tinker and build small projects with the libraries
| available but am more concerned with the android 9 apps.
| Other primary usages are phone, text, and browsing.
| kop316 wrote:
| In that case I would say either are stable enough for you
| to use. If you want something sooner than later I would
| get a Pinephone.
|
| If you go with a pinephone get the 3 GB version, as anbox
| takes up a fair bit of RAM.
| craftkiller wrote:
| The version of the librem 5 that is shipping now is the
| "evergreen" model. Their next model is going to be named
| "fir" which is supposed to have a 14nm CPU[1] as opposed to
| the 28nm CPU in the evergreen model. This should mean better
| battery life, so if that is something that interests you then
| you might want to wait on the librem 5. Personally, I don't
| want to wait that long so I'm getting evergreen.
|
| [1] https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-shipping-announcement/
| fsflover wrote:
| CPU is probably not going to be the only change for Fir:
| https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-
| wiki/-/wikis/Freque....
| prophesi wrote:
| Not seeing anything new in that post. CPU is still the
| only confirmed change, and they go through the
| implications of the device using the i.MX 8M Plus.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| It's not even confirmed that it's going to use the i.MX
| 8M Plus. The initial Fir "announcement" assumed a quite
| different reality where all Evergreens would have been
| shipped long time ago.
| alvarlagerlof wrote:
| I wonder if gtk will ever go declarative
| yepthatsreality wrote:
| Very cool demo!
|
| I can see a future where Unix/Linux machines take the pro-device
| market.
| vlmutolo wrote:
| For a second, I thought, "Man is it really that slow to compile a
| hello-world Python GTK app?" I completely forgot he was doing
| this all on a phone.
|
| I'm super impressed with the state of "convergence" here.
| Dragging a window over from a full desktop monitor to the phone
| was exciting to watch.
|
| I doubt I would want to do development directly on the phone, but
| only because the phone is going to be underpowered compared to a
| desktop. But since it's just a standard linux distro on the
| phone, it probably wouldn't be too hard to set up the Librem to
| automatically pull the latest build from the desktop/laptop for
| testing purposes.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| > "Man is it really that slow to compile a hello-world Python
| GTK app?"
|
| GNOME Builder uses Flatpak - when you press "run" button it
| does full flatpak packaging and runs the resulting package
| inside a sandbox. Of course you could still run such app
| natively, directly from the terminal, in which case it would be
| pretty much instantaneous :)
| Seirdy wrote:
| Now that a lot of GTK mindshare seems to be moving towards
| gtk-rs, I have a feeling that it's about to get a lot less
| instantaneous.
|
| This isn't a swipe at Rust, per se: if you're using Rust
| you've probably already decided that build speed and
| portability aren't as important as memory safety and
| performance, and I'm sure that's often a valid trade-off.
|
| I do think that "dev builds" should be much faster than
| release builds, and that means building natively should be
| default.
| qchris wrote:
| I believe this is actively being worked on; there's a
| compiler backend being built using Cranelift instead of
| LLVM that will supposedly improve debug built times by a
| fair amount, and then the full release builds will switch
| over to the LLVM-optimized version. Last I saw, the
| improvement between the existing rustc and Cranelift-based
| one was something like 15%, but that may have changed in
| the interim.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| Indeed - however, I'm usually compiling things straight on
| the phone, it's not that slow. Rust can be challenging in
| this regard, but works acceptably well once you get
| dependency crates already compiled (which can require
| adding some swap, unfortunately).
| sammorrowdrums wrote:
| I've been making a hobby app with GTK Rust in GNOME Builder for
| Pinephone and eventually Librem 5.
|
| App runs well on Pinephone but building Rust GTK App on
| Pinephone takes forever. I did it once out of curiosity.
|
| Luckily qemu cross compiling is easy to do on laptop and SCP it
| to phone, with native Linux SSH and root on phones it is
| refreshing.
|
| Cannot wait for Librem 5 to get shipped, it's a lot more
| powerful than Pinephone, but I'm super happy to be
| experimenting on the future of Linux phones and convergence,
| regardless of where it ends up going.
| squarefoot wrote:
| > App runs well on Pinephone but building Rust GTK App on
| Pinephone takes forever.
|
| Have you tried Lazarus on the Pinephone and the Librem5? It
| already runs on different ARM boards and apparently it does
| on the Pinephone too producing fast code.
|
| https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php?topic=52217.0
|
| Check also the video on mega.nz linked in that thread.
| sammorrowdrums wrote:
| Thanks for suggestion, haven't tried it before but I'll
| check it out.
| reddotX wrote:
| yawnn.. ubuntu touch had convergence 5 yeas ago, nobody cared
| swiley wrote:
| Respectfully, ubuntu touch is a terrible OS. When people ask
| for convergence on a phone they want a normal desktop Linux
| OS not an Android knockoff that can run some X11 apps.
| atat7024 wrote:
| Bullshit, respectfully.
|
| Convergence has been held back by UX and UX alone.
|
| It's the single most-requested feature at my bespoke secure
| technology firm.
| michaelmrose wrote:
| In theory this makes tons of sense but despite
| microbenchmarks your expensive phone is still a kind of
| mediocre little computer and for optimal usage needs more
| ports a display, keyboard, pointing device, and battery.
|
| Basically it needs everything but the motherboard/cpu/ram
| meaning you need a $500 peripheral to turn your awesome
| $1000 dollar phone into a merely OK computer.
|
| If you really want to save money you probably have a $400
| laptop and a $100 phone. If you have money to spend a $1000
| phone AND a $1500 laptop will be a nicer experience.
|
| With support for arm software better than ever before and
| better hardware available cheaper than ever before its
| better than it has ever been for this idea but it would
| still be a compromise that you have to convince your
| customer they ought to both pay substantially for and
| accept.
| bitwize wrote:
| Not true in the Apple ecosystem. The Apple Silicon chips
| in recent iPhones can trounce desktop chips from a few
| years ago, and the next-gen iPhone should rival a high-
| spec desktop from today.
| mcny wrote:
| Sorry if it sounds like I'm moving the goalpost but no.
| Apple, Android doesn't matter. They are all trash.
|
| The fact that I can't remove the battery, and have the
| phone working when connected to external power makes
| every single phone (even those with user serviceable
| battery) garbage.
|
| I don't know of a single recent phone that works off of
| external power. Personally, I think this is enough to
| prohibit sale of a device.
|
| What I expect when a device is connected to power is for
| it to
|
| 1. work off of external power directly
|
| 2. charge the battery to an optimal level (possibly 60 to
| 80 percent?) and STOP charging
|
| I'd have thought this was the default way all electronics
| works. I know for a fact that my 2006 MacBook just worked
| if I remove the battery. Same with my random Asus N61JVx2
| notebook computer as well.
|
| Why can't new devices do this?
| 29083011397778 wrote:
| The USB-C port doesn't provide enough power for the Wi-Fi
| radio to work, but ethernet (via USB-C hub) would work
| fine. Excluding that (major) use-case, the Pinephone
| works just fine using external power instead of the
| battery. Hell, for that matter, I'm tempted to find out
| if an external Wi-Fi dongle would work...
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| The cellular modem also doesn't work without battery on
| the PinePhone (it does on the Librem 5 though). It's not
| a matter of providing enough power - on the PinePhone
| (and many other phones as well) those things are powered
| straight from the battery, because to make it work
| otherwise you have to provide enough capacitance to
| handle big power spikes (which the Librem 5 does, as it's
| not meant to optimize for low price).
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| FWIW, the Librem 5 can fully work with no battery
| (including the cellular modem and WiFi, which often don't
| work with no battery on other phones) as long as it's
| connected to a powerful enough USB-PD power source. You
| can also reconfigure the battery charger directly via its
| I2C interface:
| https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/bq25895.pdf
| michaelmrose wrote:
| I believe the reason is typically because they want to
| make the design of chargers cheaper and the circuitry
| inside simpler and ergo cheaper as well. What you want
| has a slightly higher unit cost and in 99.99% of cases
| doesn't impact the users usage.
|
| Laptops are designed to run off battery or power because
| this is how many people typically use laptops. They plug
| them in places where they use them for long periods of
| time whereas phones are virtually always charged for a
| short period of time often overnight and then carried
| around and used unplugged virtually all of the time.
|
| I have found the best solution to be to acquire hardware
| with more than sufficient battery power so as to only
| worry about charging it every 2-3 days when I'm sleeping.
| Phones exist with up to 5AH of battery power.
| mcny wrote:
| > I believe the reason is typically because they want to
| make the design of chargers cheaper and the circuitry
| inside simpler and ergo cheaper as well. What you want
| has a slightly higher unit cost and in 99.99% of cases
| doesn't impact the users usage.
|
| Makes sense but really given how much every company harps
| about going green... I don't know whether a lot of people
| use their phones while charging but I think they do. At
| least I do.
|
| You brought up a good point though. I should just get a
| phone with a huge battery. So no pixel and no iPhone.
| ac29 wrote:
| Is it an OS thing or a hardware thing? I like the idea of
| using something like postmarketOS to repurpose an old
| smartphone, but I agree for long term use the battery
| might not be a good idea (especially if the hardware
| tries to keep it at 100%).
| mcny wrote:
| I have now fried two different phone batteries trying
| this: basically I wanted to set up old phones as time
| lapse photo capture using open camera but the battery
| swells up and becomes a fire hazard in a few
| weeks/months.
| michaelmrose wrote:
| A high spec desktop from today has 32 3.7Ghz cores that 1
| to 1 spank apple silicons 4 _fast_ cores 32GB - 1TB of
| RAM and GBps of access up to TBs of storage or slower
| access to 10s of TB. It can use 1000W if need be and
| active cooling.
|
| Claims that Apple is going to blow the rest of the market
| away usually revolve around
|
| - Careful choice of chips usually involving only apple
| hardware running less than current generation hardware in
| thermally constrained situations
|
| - Pretending that AMD doesn't exist
|
| - Pretending that both Intel's slump in progress and
| Apple's progress are permanent unchangeable trajectories
| rather than the current status.
|
| - Pretending that we can anticipate a fixed factor
| improvement over a given time based on changing power
| envelope. The just add power argument that suggests that
| future desktop chips will n times faster based on having
| n times the power and cooling an oversimplification an
| apple engineer is unlikely to make. You haven't made this
| one of course you think they will be able to blow away
| the 1000 watt desktop in 7 Watts. Which is more
| interesting yet.
|
| - Pretending that a favorable microbenchmark chosen
| primary because it reflects desired reality rather than
| applicability proves not only anything about real world
| performance but everything.
|
| The 2022 iphone still wouldn't make a great computer and
| the Apple atrix if it were to come to pass would still
| require you to buy hardware that is liable to be nearly
| as expensive to make and as bulky as a macbook for a
| worse experience. Why would a premium buyer want that?
|
| Can you imagine Apple trying to make a laptop with a
| phone sticking out of it cool? Sliding it into something
| would be problematic for cooling. The sheer uncoolness is
| probably even more fatal than the performance.
| fsflover wrote:
| > It's the single most-requested feature at my bespoke
| secure technology firm.
|
| I'm curious now, is your firm going to order a bunch of
| Librem 5 phones?
| atat7024 wrote:
| No. Their security model does not meet the baseline
| security needs of our clients.
| qchris wrote:
| Would you mind elaborating on that? My understanding is
| from a verification point of view, the Librem 5 is
| functionally at the absolute top-tier in terms of OpSec
| concerns, with everything from the bootloader up being
| open and customized, full disk encryption available, and
| the only binary blobs (I think on the modem?) being
| completely sandboxed. Are there additional concerns, and
| what kind of solutions do they currently use that do meet
| those needs?
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| You can even set up a secure boot chain with your own
| encryption keys, see: https://boundarydevices.com/high-
| assurance-boot-hab-i-mx8m-e... (it's a tutorial for a
| board that uses SoC from the same family as the Librem 5)
| fsflover wrote:
| Actually you can customize the OS as you wish on this
| phone. Perhaps it's a big task though.
| em3rgent0rdr wrote:
| and Motorola Atrix 4G sortof had that 10 years ago:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Atrix_4G#Webtop
| fsflover wrote:
| This is not the same at all. Librem 5 runs _desktop_ apps
| on a phone, not making _mobile_ apps run on a big screen.
| chriswarbo wrote:
| I've been doing that for about 12 years using
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko
|
| I still use it every day, since it has my two-factor auth
| credentials (in GPG); although I transferred my SIM to a
| PinePhone last Christmas :)
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| GTA01 and GTA02 had no way to connect external screen
| though, and even if they had it it wouldn't be pleasant
| at all - Glamo was even too weak to drive the internal
| VGA screen :) But yeah - I'm working on the Librem 5 now,
| but I remember making my first steps in Python on the
| Openmoko Neo Freerunner back in 2008 while starting to
| contribute to SHR and it still has a special place in my
| heart!
| [deleted]
| Hjfrf wrote:
| It's an exciting idea that as phones get more powerful,
| plugging the phone into a monitor could replace the desktop
| entirely for many home users.
| Abishek_Muthian wrote:
| > I'm super impressed with the state of "convergence" here.
|
| Convergence is great for productivity. Ubuntu Touch's main USP
| was that and I was even able to get it working in UBPorts on my
| nexus4[1].
|
| It's a shame that convergence is still a hit or miss on android
| ecosystem, At this point of smartphone compute hardware & USB-C
| standardization we should be able to plug any smartphone to a
| monitor. At least Linux smartphone ecosystem is betting high on
| that.
|
| [1]
| https://twitter.com/heavyinfo/status/1251048583190609920?s=2...
| DennisAleynikov wrote:
| it is quite ridiculous. as a passionate Samsung DeX defender
| at first, I dove right into that ecosystem when the s8 came
| out and am now at a point where my s10 is never getting a
| software update BECAUSE ANDROID BROKE THE API FOR SAMSUNGS
| WSL. Termux was a victim too to a much lesser degree but
| Samsung had literally had Linux on Dex beta and I was
| absolutely free to just have my phone.
|
| It was incredible going to school, sitting down at a random
| monitor and just having all of my vscode files and blender
| assets follow me around
| chriswarbo wrote:
| > Dragging a window over from a full desktop monitor to the
| phone was exciting to watch.
|
| Slightly related, there's a nice tool called x2x which combines
| two X displays on different machines, so moving the cursor off
| the side of one makes it appear on the other (AFAIK it works
| using a 1-pixel-wide window at the screen edge).
|
| I used this to control my OpenMoko with keyboard and mouse
| (over SSH), in lieu of an external screen/'dock' like the
| article shows.
|
| > But since it's just a standard linux distro on the phone, it
| probably wouldn't be too hard to set up the Librem to
| automatically pull the latest build from the desktop/laptop for
| testing purposes.
|
| It's probably easiest to just SSH into the phone as needed, and
| use scp/rsync/sshfs/etc. to copy things across. If nothing
| else, it avoids the horrors of having to type commands via a
| touchscreen.
| fsflover wrote:
| > the horrors of having to type commands via a touchscreen
|
| You can connect a keyboard to the phone as shown in the
| video. Bluetooth keyboards work too.
| crossroadsguy wrote:
| Now imagine an Android developer who wants to buy a new laptop
| and thinks they should be able to live with 4GBs of RAM for
| normal non-heavy usage. Then they remember they might want to
| use Android Studio as well. Then sky is the limit when it comes
| to RAM at least.
| akudha wrote:
| What do I need to know to develop Librem apps? Just Python?
| fsflover wrote:
| Other languages can work too. Some tutorials:
| https://developer.puri.sm/Librem5/Apps/index.html.
| kop316 wrote:
| Its the same as developing for a linux desktop. mmsd is written
| in C, and has python unit tests.
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