[HN Gopher] Why most non-fiction authors don't make any money ___________________________________________________________________ Why most non-fiction authors don't make any money Author : rjyoungling Score : 80 points Date : 2021-04-16 10:00 UTC (1 days ago) (HTM) web link (writeusefulbooks.com) (TXT) w3m dump (writeusefulbooks.com) | 07121941 wrote: | Fantastic advice. Now all I've got to do is write | crecker wrote: | Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26831469 | ed25519FUUU wrote: | It seems to me that virtually everyone going into the creative | fields (art, music, writing, acting) should enter that field | without any expectation to make a living from it. | | We pay other people to do things that aren't fun for us, not the | other way around. | apocalypstyx wrote: | The owners of and investors in publishing houses, movie | studios, and music labels tend to expect something beyond | 'making a living'. Whereas those who actually generate cultural | phenomena (our culture, aka the shared framework of references | that allows us to define an us) see little to nothing from work | that is foundational to multi-billion dollar media empires. Not | making a living means that the class of people most free to | engage in cultural creation are those who are independently | wealthy. | | 'Follow your passion' brings with it the perversity of _if you | love it, then that should be reward enough_. Much in the way | that doctors and nurses have been labeled as 'heroes' is used | as a smoke screen to _not_ increase pay or alleviate working | conditions because _you love your work_ and _can you really be | a hero if you expect money from it?_ | | One way or another, it seems, human society appears bent on | perpetuating the idea that some people should generate value | for others without compensation in regards to that value. | ghaff wrote: | I'm not sure why the downvotes. That's absolutely a fair | comment. There are some cases where creative work can benefit | your day job through visibility and related skills. (A talented | amateur actor is probably going to be better at presentations | for example. And being that really good presenter at your | company's user group event every year isn't going to hurt you.) | But it seems a good point overall. Being great on some | instrument probably isn't going to be a great argument for why | you should get promoted at a non-music-related position.) | m463 wrote: | I would also say, people make more money doing stuff that's | hard. (and of course the bar goes up) | ghaff wrote: | I'd say "hard" is a necessary but not sufficient condition. | People (individually or in the aggregate) also need to be | willing to pay you specifically a lot of money for what you | specifically bring to the table that, in many creative | fields, requires being very top tier (and lucky). | | In the arts, the equivalent of a mid-tier developer makes | jack squat. | Invictus0 wrote: | It's a bad comment because it totally misses the actual | dynamics of the creative marketplace--that is, superstars- | take-all. It has nothing to do with the "fun" of the work. | The superstars in the creative industries are making 7-8 | figures and everyone else is making 4-5 figures while trying | to become a superstar. | ghaff wrote: | And I would say that going into a field that requires | hitting the jackpot to not be waiting tables as a day job | isn't a great strategy from an expected earnings | perspective. (Which isn't to say people shouldn't do it if | that's their thing.) | WalterBright wrote: | Fortunately for me, writing compilers is fun. | ed25519FUUU wrote: | Doing something that's fun _and_ hard. | btcstudente wrote: | Must be fun! | currymj wrote: | how much are these numbers skewed by academic monographs? these | are books that are basically going to be sold only to university | libraries, which might explain why they sell <500 copies. | | there are many such books where no author ever expects to make | money -- they have other incentives due to the way academia is | organized. | gxqoz wrote: | My impression is that even reasonably well-selling non-fiction | books typically do not sell a lot of copies. To make it onto a | best-seller list you only need to sell in the tens of thousands | of books. | krmmalik wrote: | I'm an author of a non-fiction book. I self-published. My book | has a 5-star rating to date even though it was published nearly 5 | years ago. My book meets most of the criteria laid out in this | book. I even had both a publisher and distributor approach me and | I had plenty leverage. Despite all that, I didn't get the book | sales I wanted nor the PR. | | Everyone that reads my book is surprised to hear it's not topping | the charts or plastered everywhere my audience hangs out. My book | beat out all the competition when it came out in terms of | reviews. | | While the points in this post are valid, I don't believe they get | to the bottom of what holds back sales. | | Frankly, I don't know what the answer is -- I have a vague idea | of what it could be but I haven't had a chance to try those | things. Perhaps if my book had been in all airport bookstores a | few years ago, it might have taken off (no pun intended) like Tim | Ferriss' book but who knows. | kjksf wrote: | Does it, though? | | I assume you mean "Billion Dollar Muslim: Why We Need | Spiritually Inspired Entrepreneurs". | | It clearly makes mistake #3: "writing broadly about the topic | instead of making a clear promise about what the reader will | get out of it". | | What is "clear promise about what the reader will get out of | it" in "Billion Dollar Muslim"? | | Frankly, based on the title I don't see why I should read it, | even if I'm somewhat interested in entrepreneurship. | | "Why We Need Spiritually Inspired Entrepreneurs" never occurred | to me as a question worth answering. Not the way "how to | increase sales?" is a question I might be interested in knowing | the answer to. | | BTW: you website has expired SSL certificate so the main source | of promoting your book is as good as gone. | krmmalik wrote: | I gave up marketing the book two years ago after trying for | nearly 3 years. SSL certificate I will check out. That must | be recent as the site has been running fine for years. | | You might have a point about the promise of the book, but | that depends on whether your muslim or not. Most muslims who | come across it, understand the premise immediately, but | still, you might have a point there. | yesenadam wrote: | > What is "clear promise about what the reader will get out | of it" in "Billion Dollar Muslim"? | | Uh, it promises to explain Why We Need Spiritually Inspired | Entrepreneurs. | | I don't think the book needs to appeal to _you_ to count as a | clear promise the reader will get something out of it! You | could object in the same way to a book called "How to Draw | in Charcoal", how "Frankly, based on the title I don't see | why I should read it". | [deleted] | UperSpaceGuru wrote: | I just bought your book based on the post above. Maybe it's | marketing? Your book is also aimed a small niche(I'm on your | target market!), maybe that's it? | krmmalik wrote: | That's hilarious. Enjoy the book :) | | Marketing requires a huge budget in the VC age since you're | competing with ever increasing ad prices. I have spent a lot | of money on advertising regardless. | | One thing that has been a major sticking point for me | however, ist hat distribution has been a huge issue. I | wouldn't say my target market is that small. Most of the | Middle East and Asia is quite ripe for my book but amazon | doest operate it's self-publishing arm out there and the | alternatives have not been that enticing. | zrail wrote: | > Marketing requires a huge budget in the VC age since | you're competing with ever increasing ad prices. | | This is a mental trap that is super easy to fall into. The | author of the article is writing a marketing guide. | Marketing encompasses the entire product and go to market | design, of which advertising is just a tiny part. Notice in | his table of contents that advertising is only mentioned in | one chapter very late in the book. | kjksf wrote: | > Marketing requires a huge budget in the VC ag | | And yet the free source of marketing (your twitter account) | doesn't have a link to the book. | | Neither does your HN bio. | | Your website is broken (expired SSL certificate). | | As far as I can tell you don't have a single page that | tries to sell the book. A link to amazon is a bare minimum. | | https://writeusefulbooks.com/ is an example of a master | class of marketing a book. It describes what the book is | about and why one should buy it. It established the author | as successful writer and therefore authority on the | subject. | | He also wrote an article good enough to hit HN and be a | driver to the website. That required 0 budget. | | Maybe your failure at marketing are a result of you being | bad at it, not a universal truth that you can only be | successful with "huge budget". | DubiousPusher wrote: | > It's because Hemingway's Boat is broadly "about" a topic, | whereas The War of Art promises--and delivers--an outcome. | | I certaintly don't know a damn thing about selling books. But I | am an avid reader of nonfiction and this is exactly the opposite | of how I shop for books myself. | | Other than the odd "how-to", I'm skeptical of any book promising | me anything other than the author's diligent study and incisive | distillation of a topic. I've read many books which caused my | mind to grow and really excited me about the world but I've never | read a book that "solved my problem". Of which, I assure you, I | have many. | joe_the_user wrote: | There are so many issues in all this. I think most self-help | and how-to-be-an-entrepreneur books target people who don't | read much. On the one hand, it's the bigger market! on the | other hand, they don't read much. | | These days, most or a large portion of books that have involve | substance and research written by academics, who probably would | like the books to make money but are OK with them not making | money 'cause they still get fame and possibly academic kudos. | Of course, there are professional researchers and writers who | make a living publishing but they have their substance, they | have their niche and they need only very specific advice as | opposed to the (apparently confused) generalities of the | article. | | And thing the author of this website is he seems to aim to sell | a book about getting rich writing books and those books would | have to be about getting rich too. It's more a multilevel | marketing scheme - which doesn't mean someone won't rich here | but the entire enterprise is grim and not something I'd want to | read about - well, Barbara Ehrenreich's Bait And Switch is | somewhat interesting. But still. | ddorian43 wrote: | > but I've never read a book that "solved my problem". Of | which, I assure you, I have many. | | Curious of your unsolved problems. | dd_roger wrote: | I share your opinion (I particularily like essays; I follow | along the arguments, think whether I agree with them or not, | etc. but absolutely hate the "how-to" kind of books which I | strongly associate with the hustle and self improvement culture | that I find quite toxic.) | | But I agree with the author that the later kind of books seems | much more popular with the general public, being handed | solutions appears to be more attractive to many people that | being encouraged to think about problems that probably aren't | even relevant to them. And in a sense it's perfectly | understandable, but I personally prefer the intellectual | stimulation from a good essay over what is essentially a | marketing speech from a professional hustler. | gbourne wrote: | I got a publishing contract with a larger publisher to write a | book on Agile (10 years ago, didn't end up publishing, long | story). | | I know that amazing feeling the author mentions of getting a | "yes", while totally ignoring that at best I was going to make | pennies. If I recall it was 10% after all publishing costs were | paid for. However, I had a full time job, so this was for-the- | love-of-it rather than as a real source of income. | Multiplayer wrote: | I wrote a few books with a major publisher, but did it largely | for the authority that it conveyed on my work and career at the | time. | | Love works too. :) | ng12 wrote: | So 3/4 of the tips are: write a book people want to read? | Finnucane wrote: | No clearly, the message is, write self-help books for wannabe | writers. | okareaman wrote: | Shouldn't #5 be "not promoting your book effectively" because | he's clearly promoting his book effectively. I think this is fine | if fame and fortune are your goal, which is an unquestioned | assumption for a lot of people, but there are other reasons to | write a book, which he does not address. | thomaslangston wrote: | The point of the article is explaining how a goal of a living | wage can be earned directly off nonfiction writing, in addition | to two different reasons that are explicitly stated at the | beginning of the article as being commonly suggested. | | It also explicitly is calling out methods that do not require | fame, nor does it espouse a goal of fortune (unless you treat a | living wage as a fortune). | okareaman wrote: | He does so dismissively, not treating them seriously: "you | should therefore embrace your book's predestined doom by | reframing it as either passion project or calling card." | ghaff wrote: | In fact, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of people | who write non-fiction books are absolutely aware that the | royalties will likely be (maybe) beer money--assuming they | don't have expensive tastes in beer. Rather they're | reputational. In tech, being a published author on a topic | often separates people from the pack as consultants but it can | also easily differentiate you if you have an externally-facing | role (especially) at a company. | | Personally, I've made a relatively trivial amount of money from | the books I've written, but I have little doubt they've been | good investments of my time--some of which has been work time. | | ADDED: I'd add that "promoting your book effectively" probably | isn't free. Most authors aren't going to get a lot of publisher | support so now you're hiring a publicist, paying for review | copies, paying to travel (normally) to speak at events where | you do book signings and promote your book, etc. | okareaman wrote: | Researching and writing help clarify your thoughts, which | could pay dividends in other ways. I'm retired, don't need | the money and am told old to care about fame, but I have | several ideas for non-fiction books I'm working on. Now that | I think about it, his blog post presents a strong case for | not writing a non-fiction book for money. There are other | ways to spend your time with a better chance of making money, | unless you're clever self-promoter that is. | | "A 98% drop in sales after the first year, Seventy percent of | traditionally published titles fail to pay out a single | dollar in royalties, Vanishingly few nonfiction books sell | even five hundred copies" | ghaff wrote: | That's a great point. It's not just about I have a book. | But that, especially if it's through a publisher (which has | pros and cons), I have sufficient knowledge of the topic | either acquired day-to-day or through research that I'm | capable of laying down at least 250 pages or so of coherent | writing on said topic. The last book I did I was definitely | already familiar with the area but I was certainly more so | my the time I was done. | k__ wrote: | Having the right publisher is probably the most important. | | I can recommend https://newline.co | | I wrote a book with them and made enough to pay my rent for over | a year with the money I made. | fighterpilot wrote: | Authors have the same problem as musicians. Their work has zero | marginal replication cost, zero distribution cost, low barriers | to entry and they're competing for finite attention. | | What invariably happens then is the top 0.1 percent of output is | duplicated and sold to hundreds of millions of customers and that | eats up all of the attention bandwidth for that vertical. It's | the ultimate winner take all setup. | | Contrast this to the prospect of running a successful restaurant | that is fundamentally limited by geography. No matter how well it | serves region A, region B, C, D, etc is still up for grabs. A | franchise can try to duplicate its success, but it's much more | costly than a successful author making endless free digital | copies of their work. | yesenadam wrote: | I enjoyed this, I thought it mostly made good points, and it | linked to other articles I will look at. Yet.. | | I started reading a blogger who teaches how to make a successful | blog, sells courses about it, etc. I soon realized her blog is | just about her making money from promising to help you make money | from your blog. A frighteningly vacuous operation. It seems a | modern cousin to the old ad in magazines promising to reveal the | secret to wealth for $20. When you write to the given address you | get a letter back saying "Do as I do." It's a pyramid operation. | | Writing books about writing books seems similar. Selling the | dream of high sales when you write on other topics, when their | books are the same "making money from promising to help you make | money" from your book seems a bit fishy, has a scammy element. | It's more than a lil "Do as I do." | Finnucane wrote: | He doesn't seem to understand what a royalty is. He quotes | himself saying "To compensate for their 85% share of the | royalties, a publisher needs to sell at least 5x more copies for | you to break even [compared to self-publishing]." As the lady on | the tv says, that's not how any of this works. In trade | publishing at least, the author's royalty is a percentage of the | cover price of the book. In normal retail selling, the publisher | gets maybe 50-55% of the cover price in revenue, out of which | they have to pay you and also all of their costs of producing | your book. | 101008 wrote: | As a publisher author of a non-fiction book with an established | publisher, I had to stop reading after that first point because | he is completely wrong. | Multiplayer wrote: | I think it makes sense. He's saying that if you get a 15% | royalty, vs the 100% royalty minus costs of self publishing, | you need to sell 5x more books via the publisher. | | It's oddly worded, but the math roughly works depending on | your self publishing costs. | Finnucane wrote: | It is not oddly worded. It is wrong. | jimnotgym wrote: | Yes it is an error, but the underlying point is true. | | I also thought that, whilst it was easy to recognize the | error, the point was still easy to understand. I think it | is a good point, let's hope the author redrafts. | Ronson wrote: | I can't comment on the article but after a slow start this year, | this HN Post has got me "reading" non-fiction audiobooks again. | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26206712 | | I am a member of goodreads, it's just hard to find stuff | sometimes and cut through the dross. Thank you pizzicato. | SunlightEdge wrote: | Unfortunately most writers of fiction make next to nothing too. | Writers often are not happy writing either (unlike painters and | video artists who seem to have a whale of a time). | | Sadly I toiled for 8 years on a novel (while working a day job). | It was a massive effort. | | It might be hard for people to understand but I felt I had to | write it (i.e. writers curse). | | I wish I had spent all that time on studying programming etc. | Unfortunately humans are not fully rational. I actually like my | novel. But it wasn't worth it. | | https://www.amazon.co.uk/Can-Get-Restart-Jack-Gowan-ebook/dp... | | But hey that's life. Shrug. | | Writers should just write for the pleasure of writing and expect | that the majority won't make it. It's about as likely as winning | the lottery | jesselawson wrote: | Hey I know you're feeling like giving up, but you have to | realize that you've only taken the first step--and the good | news is, it's a step that only 10% of people ever make! So | congratulations! You published your first novel! Only 10% of | people ever finish "that novel" they have in their head that | they feel the urge to write. I'm proud of you! | | Now for the next part, which no one like's to hear: the easy | part is over. Yep, you heard that right: getting your first | work finished and out there was relatively easy compared to the | mountain you have set yourself on to climb. Yes, only 10% of | people dare climb that mountain, and here you are--among the | 10%. Now, as you look forward, I can tell you that at every | major step, every major obstacle, and every major setback, only | 10% of people keep going. | | You might think there's a secret to this writing thing, but | there isn't. Just like when we're hiking up a mountain, the | only thing that matters is putting one foot in front of the | other. That's the only way you climb. So you HAVE to get back | in there (mentally) and keep going! | | You just started on an amazingly difficult and frustrating and | beautiful journey in life. You made it to where only 10% of | people get to--and now you want to stop the journey? | | My friend, your journey has only just begun. | SunlightEdge wrote: | Thanks for your kind words. Perhaps what you say is true. I'm | not sure I'm qualified (ironically) to say. | | What I can say is that the time, the sacrifice, and then the | crappy marketing ploys (no one tells you about that). It's | real hard work. It's really hard when you get nothing for all | your efforts. | | I know a 2nd book would be easier. But it still would take a | lot of time. Probably 3-4 years. | | Potentially in... a while... I might write again. I am full | of ideas. But honestly I'd rather build IT stuff right now. | Programming is my new love. | | Don't get me wrong there is a real beauty in writing. But, | well there is a lot to life. And I'd like to explore | different things. There's a ton of creativity in IT. | | I can always start writing again when I'm 55/60. I actually | don't think it's a young man's activity. There's no money in | it either. | | But yeah, sitting in the sun during my twilight years... | writing. Sounds great. | [deleted] | zrail wrote: | The comments here are incredibly harsh. As someone who has self | published two books, quite a lot of this resonates with me. | | First book addressed a timely topic but ultimately aged out very | quickly and I got burnt out trying to keep up with updates. It | made roughly $80,000 in lifetime sales, of which I kept 96% | (credit card fees + hosting overhead). | | Second book addressed a broader niche but fell into several of | the traps he describes and only made $3000. | | I will likely buy his book and try to apply it on either a | revision of book two or something new. | cryptica wrote: | The real reason why most non-fiction authors don't make a profit | is because only scam topics which sell a dream but don't add any | real value can make any profit in our current scam economy. | | Self-help gurus, spiritual charlatans, snake-oil salesmen, get- | rich-quick con men, corporate consultants, slick marketing | experts; these are the people who are making profit in our scam | economy. | | Just focus your energy on a fucking scam and you will make money | by the boatload. You don't need a long article to tell you that. | Just open your eyes and look around. | | It's not just writing which is affected; every 'intellectual' | industry is affected; art, music, science, politics, | technology... All the successful people are scammers. That's why | you can't find any good content anywhere these days. The shit | always floats to the top. The media is concentrating all our | attention on the shit and away from the good stuff. | | Also, the rich people who are running the show are morons with no | taste and 0 intellect. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-04-17 23:00 UTC)