[HN Gopher] Regulators urge safety recall of Peloton treadmill a...
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Regulators urge safety recall of Peloton treadmill after child dies
Author : joering2
Score : 123 points
Date : 2021-04-17 19:09 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.washingtonpost.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.washingtonpost.com)
| jdavis703 wrote:
| What I'm not understanding, how is a Peloton more dangerous than
| a regular treadmill?
| gruez wrote:
| from an earlier thread:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26846861
| dkdk8283 wrote:
| Normal treadmills have a safety limit switch that disengages
| the motor when it senses an obstruction.
|
| Many years ago I was at the gym and a exercise ball got loose,
| jammed it up, and the guy fell off. After removing the ball the
| treadmill didn't resume operation.
|
| You can see in the video the peloton jogs the motor in an
| attempt to free the obstruction. I presume the initial feature
| is to unjam a off track belt.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| > You can see in the video the peloton jogs the motor in an
| attempt to free the obstruction. I presume the initial
| feature is to unjam a off track belt.
|
| Which seems like an incredible misfeature to me. You can see
| how quickly it gets going from a standstill two or three
| times in the video - even _if_ someone were on the treadmill
| (and not under it), that's exactly not the behavior you want.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| Is that not required by law? Surely the engineers thought
| about this scenario and advised management to include a
| safety limit switch. Did management just ignore the
| engineers?
|
| This seems like another Ford Pinto where the company decided
| it was cheaper to settle the lawsuits than fix the product.
| bdibs wrote:
| "Move fast and break things."
| ohazi wrote:
| > Asked for a response, a spokesperson for Peloton, Jessica
| Kleiman, told Insider that the company was "disappointed that
| CPSC is mischaracterizing the situation."
|
| The hubris...
|
| The only correct response would have been something along the
| lines of "we have no comment at this time."
|
| The job is to communicate that you are aware of an issue, that
| you are investigating, and/or that you are cooperating. If you
| want to lobby for favorable treatment from regulators, hire an
| external lobbying firm to do it quietly, don't get into a public
| flame war with the CPSC.
|
| How are PR/spokespeople for high profile companies still making
| these kind of amateur hour mistakes in 2021? Isn't the public
| record absolutely _littered_ with comments like these that just
| made the company look worse?
| [deleted]
| whatshisface wrote:
| Most people aren't as Machiavellian as your typical armchair
| industry analyst would suppose. If you accuse a board that
| their product is killing children, would you expect them to
| think "we better make sure our PR department covers this up as
| effectively as possible," or would you expect indignation and
| denial?
| oivey wrote:
| I would expect "we're investigating this issue and/or taking
| corrective action" because that's the actually empathetic
| thing to do when a child has died and others have been
| injured. No PR department should be putting out knee jerk
| reactions. It's their job not to. That their reaction is to
| deflect blame doesn't bode well for them making an effort to
| address the problem. Peloton is not even just deflecting
| blame here. They are accusing the government of basically
| lying.
| [deleted]
| rriepe wrote:
| You're off here by millions and millions of dollars. This case
| is worth much, much more in the court of public opinion to
| Peloton than in actual court. People generally agree with the
| first version of the story they hear. In 2021, saying "no
| comment" (instead of this equally say-nothing statement that at
| least shapes the narrative) is just handing that opportunity
| away.
|
| Thirty years ago, "no comment" could buy you some time and you
| could present your case later in primetime (or whatever you
| could land) to lots of first-time impressions. In 2021, it's
| almost always a stupid thing to say from a PR standpoint (I'm
| sure some lawyers would still love it) because everything is
| always-on and there's almost no element of timing aside from
| burying stories on Friday.
| eli wrote:
| correct answer is to apologize, acknowledge the problem, and
| outline a solution.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Not in a world with lawyers it isn't
| eli wrote:
| Letting the lawyers make strategic decisions is a choice.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Sure, it's also a choice for companies not to donate
| millions of dollars to buy malaria nets in Africa.
|
| Admitting responsibility in as litigatious an environment
| as the US is essentially throwing away money, with less
| public benefit than the malaria nets.
| treeman79 wrote:
| Was like 12. Speed was set via a dial.
|
| One would think a treadmill needed ramp up time to get to 15mph.
|
| Life lessons were learned after being tossed into a filing
| cabinet.
| roland35 wrote:
| I have a hard time believing that there aren't very specific
| regulations for threadmills that address hazards. When I worked
| on a consumer robotics project we had to follow IEC standards
| which defined exactly how far a hand could reach to moving parts,
| how big a stop button must be, etc.
| moneytide1 wrote:
| It's more alarming that people are spending this amount of money
| (aka deploying factory labor, conveyor belts, induction motors,
| plastic molding, heart rate screens, grid electricity) for the
| ability to run in place like a hamster.
| Bancakes wrote:
| You get to run in a clean, climate controlled environment with
| near zero risk of body injury. Plus with all the covid
| lockdowns, this is one of the best cardio you can get.
| rgbrenner wrote:
| Most treadmills have a guard or plastic covering on the bottom
| that stops the tread from pulling something underneath it. From
| pictures, the peloton treadmill doesnt have this... so I would
| guess if anything gets between the back of the device and the
| floor, it'll pull it under the machine.
|
| Edit: confirmed (warning: video shows a child being injured):
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onXNnlCYJ4Y
| ajb wrote:
| Yikes. Sounds like they just didn't do a safety review. Given
| that they are also apparently "opposing" the recall, I wouldn't
| trust them with a 10 foot pole now. They've put themselves in
| the same category as the Schlitterbahn, whose water slide
| decapitated a 10-year-old.
| loonster wrote:
| The level of risk is magnitudes more with the waterslide.
|
| Allowing children to use exercise equipment is a Darwin award
| for the parents. It is just below allowing them to use power
| tools unsupervised
| scoopertrooper wrote:
| Because children are famous for obeying rules.
|
| You can lock power tools in a cupboard or toolbox. The same
| cannot be said for a treadmill.
| ihumanable wrote:
| Go read the actual urgent warning from the CPSC
| https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/2021/CPSC-
| Warns-...
|
| > It is believed that at least one incident occurred while
| a parent was running on the treadmill, suggesting that the
| hazard cannot be avoided simply by locking the device when
| not in use.
|
| This isn't a case of user-negligence, this is an inherently
| unsafe design where Peloton decided not to put a guard on
| the back of the machine.
| loonster wrote:
| In my mind, it is in the same category as a power tool. A
| parent would be an idiot to use a circular saw near a
| young child. Using a treadmill near children is stupid.
| Bad things happen when people do stupid stuff.
| happytoexplain wrote:
| Others have pointed out the fundamental and pragmatic
| differences between treadmills and power tools. E.g. it's
| unrealistic (excluding the long term) to keep people from
| putting a treadmill in their living space. Of course we
| could debate each difference, but then we're just
| discussing the differences between treadmills and power
| tools. Analogies are usually a lazy tool in the field of
| debate - you can state them easily, but they provide
| nothing of substance to anybody who doesn't _already_
| agree with you, unless you 're using them for a much more
| specific point than "X is like Y, therefore they should
| be treated the same".
|
| Make your argument _about treadmills_ , not about power
| tools. Also note that power tools are _highly regulated_
| and have many safety features.
| wpietri wrote:
| Nah. The key difference is that power tools are supposed
| to reshape matter. Like knives, circular saws are
| inherently dangerous. This is more like a fan: some
| designs are very dangerous, but it's possible to design
| versions that are both effective and reasonably safe.
| loonster wrote:
| Its essentially a giant belt sander. Some belt Sanders
| are more dangerous than others.
|
| I have a toddler in my household. Even thinking of them
| playing around any treadmill gives me an anxiety attack.
|
| If you want a household item, it's like a stand mixer.
| Something that could break bones if not worse.
| michaelmrose wrote:
| Blame is infinitely divisible the fact that parents share
| some blame doesn't reduce the companies fault one iota.
|
| Effectively both share the full sum of blame and we ought
| to both educate parents and force companies to make safer
| goods.
| jacquesm wrote:
| People will routinely set these up in their living rooms.
| [deleted]
| rgbrenner wrote:
| I think this is the incident that section refers to (at
| 42 seconds): https://abcnews.go.com/WNN/video/child-dies-
| peloton-treadmil...
|
| It shows a yoga ball being pulled under the machine while
| the woman is running on it.
| jacquesm wrote:
| That is one spectacularly bad design.
| happytoexplain wrote:
| When the obsession with personal responsibility results in
| the suggestion that we, as a society with legal mechanisms,
| should not avoid traumatically harming children in some
| scenario where it can be practically and realistically
| addressed if only there was will, it makes me sick. If a
| product or service causes harm and it can be reasonably
| mitigated, it must be mitigated, regardless of whether
| those people were "stupid" or "deserved their
| consequences", or some other psychopathic rationalization.
| ajb wrote:
| When my parents were children, everyone heated their houses
| with an open fire, and if you did something wrong on any
| day it would kill you. When I was a child, we had a boiler
| which was perfectly safe so long as you paed someone to
| service it once a year. Pretty much all the things my
| parents grew up with had no safety features, pretty much
| all the things I grew up with did.
|
| We have moved to a society where things are expected to be
| safe except for a number of well known exceptions, and this
| is good:
|
| "It is a profoundly erroneous truism, repeated by all copy-
| books and by eminent people when they are making speeches,
| that we should cultivate the habit of thinking of what we
| are doing. The precise opposite is the case. Civilization
| advances by extending the number of important operations
| which we can perform without thinking about them.
| Operations of thought are like cavalry charges in a battle
| -- they are strictly limited in number, they require fresh
| horses, and must only be made at decisive moments. " Alfred
| North Whitehead
|
| As technologists it is our business to know and understand
| the consequences of the mechanisms we build. We value
| greater understanding and perception. But it is a mistake
| to project this value system onto society as a whole,
| since, as the quote shows, the worth of what we build is
| precisely to allow others to avoid this burden. That
| applies in safety as much as anything else. As
| technologists we can see that if a device has a 500W motor
| in it , it bears thinking about whether there are any
| safety issues. But consumers rightly expect any safety
| issues to be pointed out to them.
|
| What worries me is when companies are run by people who
| don't understand that all our safety is the result of a lot
| of work, and so don't realise the amount of diligence
| required.
| [deleted]
| Animats wrote:
| That's what it looks like to me, too. That's a terrible design.
| It's just the right height to suck a small pet under the
| machine and crush the animal.[1] Or a foot. Looks like Pelotron
| wanted a nice clean look, so they left the guards off. That
| looked nice in the Jetsons series in 1962.[1] But not in real
| life.
|
| In industry, this is called an unguarded pinch point. Classic
| cause of injuries and amputations. It's an OSHA violation in an
| industrial operation.
|
| Every other treadmill I've ever seen had substantial guarding
| around the pinch points.
|
| OSHA: "1910.211(d)(44): 'Pinch point' means any point other
| than the point of operation at which it is possible for a part
| of the body to be caught between the moving parts of a press or
| auxiliary equipment, or between moving and stationary parts of
| a press or auxiliary equipment or between the material and
| moving part or parts of the press or auxiliary equipment."
|
| [1] https://img-s-msn-
| com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB1e...
|
| [2] https://youtu.be/0JQbeCAlF6s?t=82
| narrator wrote:
| I saw the video of this thing on the peloton website. IMHO,
| it's so needlessly dangerous and stupid to design it like
| that. It's the cult of Apple "rethink everything" design I
| guess.
|
| I hear Apple wants to get into the car business. I bet they
| won't have seatbelts because, after all, it's just another
| unnecessary button to confuse the user.
| thedrbrian wrote:
| Kinda surprised they didn't add a weight sensor on the legs
| so that when something is pulled under and it lifts the base
| it cuts the power.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Not enough. There is a ton of inertia in that system.
| bmcahren wrote:
| It wasn't that. It was the torque and incessant "gotta
| go" programming in the motor. If the speed is stuck at
| zero mph and the motor tried more than 5 seconds without
| changing the belt speed CUTOFF immediately.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Photoelectric safety switch between the back legs would've
| also worked (like a garage door beam), depending on how
| sturdy those legs are mounted for alignment.
| jturpin wrote:
| I was thinking this as well. For how much tech this thing
| seems to have, and for such a high price tag, they could
| easily justify putting, I don't know, two or three IR
| sensors down there.
| dkdk8283 wrote:
| This won't work if your tall. On fast runs my ankles
| routinely left the back of the treadmill. Keeping your
| torso tracked in the "middle" is harder the more fatigued
| you get. A sudden e-stop will fuck you up if your running
| at 8mph.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| The back legs are below the treadmill, not behind it, so
| I don't think this would be an issue?
| foolmeonce wrote:
| It's not very clear, but from the last two descriptions it
| sounds to me like it has a shutoff sensor that can engage
| by accident or leave a child under the "off" machine.
| stickfigure wrote:
| For the record, I just looked at my (formerly commercial)
| treadmill and it has no guard. Looking at a google image
| search for "treadmill" shows maybe 1/3 do not have a guard.
|
| Whether or not it is a terrible design, it's common.
| stefan_ wrote:
| I mean, there is no regulation for it, but it seems like an
| incredibly risky design for the manufacturer. Quick release
| forks famously have "lawyer lips" that make sure the wheel
| doesn't fall out in case you are riding the bike without
| actually closing the quick release.
| dkdk8283 wrote:
| My treadmill doesn't have a guard either. It does monitor
| the motor and if it suddenly stops it shuts down. I have
| observed an accident at a commercial gym where it also shut
| down on jam.
|
| It's poor software.
| Larrikin wrote:
| I checked my treadmill and it doesn't as well. I also
| googled trying to see what they look like. They seem to be
| used on treadmills that sit higher off the ground.
|
| My guess is that the Peloton design is more dangerous due
| to the treads, the thickness overall and how to high it
| sits off the ground. Perfect design for sucking things
| under.
| rconti wrote:
| Yeah, it's certainly not uncommon on either treadmills,
| but I think the height of the Peloton unit perhaps makes
| it more problematic than most.
| tzs wrote:
| > Looks like Pelotron wanted a nice clean look, so they left
| the guards off.
|
| But...the guards are usually on the bottom, maybe an inch or
| two from the edge. For anyone standing or sitting near the
| treadmill they either won't be visible or will only be a
| little visible--and in the latter case you can still make
| them hard to spot by making them the same color as the belt.
|
| Only people who lying down on the floor or who are standing
| or sitting far away in a big room should see them (and again,
| coloring them the same as the belt can make them harder to
| notice).
|
| Unless I'm misunderstanding the geometry (I've never seen a
| Peloton treadmill in person), I don't see how wanting a clean
| look would lead them to leave off guards.
| apple4ever wrote:
| I don't understand how there is no sensor to shut off the
| motor when it detects a jam. That's like basic safety
| protocol there.
| js2 wrote:
| My True 500 had nothing to prevent something from being pulled
| under it. Landice makes high end residential treadmills and
| their models don't appear to either:
|
| https://www.landice.com/sites/default/files/90%20SERIES_SERV...
|
| However, compared to those treadmills, the Peloton Tread+ has
| much larger diameter rollers and step-up height. It's also much
| heavier (455 lbs vs 340 lbs). It looks uniquely dangerous to me
| among residential treadmills.
|
| Landice L7 and L8:
|
| https://cdn.sweatband.com/Landice_L9_Club_Pro_Sports_Trainer...
|
| Peloton Tread+:
|
| https://g.foolcdn.com/image/?url=https:%2F%2Fg.foolcdn.com%2...
| HenryBemis wrote:
| Thank you for sharing these pictures. They clearly show the
| difference in height.
|
| The Landice can be a threat for a pet or can grab/scratch a
| foot. The Peloton clearly/visible is higher and a small child
| can sneak or can be pulled under it.
| rconti wrote:
| Yes, the video confirms what I expected from the description.
| And yeah, the video is a bit gruesome but apparently he was
| okay.
|
| We have a Peloton Treadmill (now called the Tread+, but the
| original one is the same as the Tread+), in fact my wife is
| running on it right now.
|
| If you do a Google Image Search for "treadmill", you will see
| most treadmills are belt-style, and often have a metal bar
| underneath the back, a few inches in. NOT a cover on the back
| -- the plastic cover is typically on the FRONT of most
| treadmills, which won't help with things getting sucked
| underneath at the back, which is where this would happen.
|
| The Tread+ is a "slat style" treadmill similar to something
| really high end like a $10k+ Woodway, but other brands also
| sell slatted style treadmills.
|
| It's definitely obvious how something can get sucked under the
| back of the tread, however I'm not sure how much better having
| a protective bar is; I really wouldn't want an arm to get
| sucked between the belt and a protective bar underneath, which
| is usually at least a few inches from the underside of the
| belt.
|
| And of course the Tread+ is something like 450lbs; the heavier
| the treadmill, the more problematic something like this is
| likely to be.
|
| Having it shut off when something goes under it does't really
| help; I'm not sure I'd want my kid to get crushed by a
| stationary treadmill either.
|
| Like most treadmills, the Tread has a safety key which you're
| supposed to wear (but not everyone does, and of course kids
| playing on it are not going to). Actually, I just realized the
| obvious answer is, if you have kids, take the safety key off
| when you're not using it. But, mistakes happen, and of course
| something can also get sucked under when a properly trained
| adult is using the device as well. (One of our cats took a
| serious blow to the head from the swinging arm of our
| elliptical, but he was fine; cat.) I definitely wouldn't want
| anything going under the pedals of our Peloton bike either;
| metal pedal plus speed plus flywheel mass would be a REALLY bad
| time.
|
| Back to the Tread, the belt stops if there's no weight on it
| for "a while" but I'm not sure how long; certainly it takes
| more than 10 seconds. And, again, you'd be left with a kid
| trapped under a STOPPED treadmill which is not much better.
|
| There's no particular safety for turning it on. Typically I
| select my profile on the touchscreen but the knobs on the side
| to start the belt are active before starting a class. I think
| they might even be active when the tablet is "on" (tap the
| power button on the cross bar first) but before choosing a
| profile.
|
| I suppose a workaround would be to require a login before
| turning it on, but of course this is a step most other
| treadmills don't have either.
| sgpl wrote:
| Warning for others clicking on the link, it's pretty graphic
| and appears to be a video of an actual incident with the
| treadmill.
|
| I was expecting it to be a product demo video or something.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Yes thankfully I clicked away but that really needs a
| warning.
| smnrchrds wrote:
| The video has a warning.
| rgbrenner wrote:
| I believe he posted this right before I updated the post
| to add the warning. Thanks to everyone that pointed it
| out.
| [deleted]
| crooked-v wrote:
| It has a warning now. It didn't at first.
| robtaylor wrote:
| the first five seconds of the video has warning text
| dkdk8283 wrote:
| Aren't we past the era of warnings? Everything is NSFW now.
| smnrchrds wrote:
| For the people who stopped watching halfway through:
| thankfully the child survives at the end.
| faeyanpiraat wrote:
| The ball made all the difference.
|
| He was lucky.
| rgbrenner wrote:
| Sorry. I added a warning.
|
| This is a different incident than the one mentioned in the
| article though. In that incident, the child was "discovered
| trapped under the machine and not breathing" and was
| hospitalized with a brain injury.. In this video, the child
| does get out from under the machine and walks away. Although
| the only difference between the two incidents is probably the
| ending... this child could have also easily become trapped.
| jurassic wrote:
| Probably that ball is what saved the kid's life.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Yeah, looks like the ball was what kept the machine
| propped up so that there was enough space for him to walk
| away. So basically an amazing lucky coincidence for him.
| baybal2 wrote:
| Any treadmill I've seen had a sensor which shuts down the mill
| if the tread gets jammed.
| soneil wrote:
| I think that's really the damning bit - in the video shown,
| you can see ripples in the belt still moving towards the kid
| just after the sister runs off. The belt's jammed, the user's
| dismounted, and it's still trying to win.
| Hamuko wrote:
| At some point the treadmill actually spits the kid out. It
| reverses the speed for like one, two seconds when the kid
| was jammed and everything had stopped, but then it starts
| going back in its original direction and the kid gets
| sucked back in before he has time to get clear.
| foepys wrote:
| This looks like a typical startup disruption approach where
| they wanted to build the hardware from the ground up and didn't
| ask industry experts why something is done the way it is.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| Reviewing profiles of Peloton mechanical engineers suggests
| they employ experts, including from heavily regulated
| industries. It seems unlikely that this was built without
| discussion or research. However, it's true that they
| misjudged the risk here.
| rconti wrote:
| I'm not sure how this speculation adds to the conversation,
| though.
| WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote:
| My first instinct was to assume this to be parents doing a
| blame-game at Peloton for their own negligence.
|
| But this actually makes sense.
|
| A child or pet gets in there it really is game over. I can
| imagine even if an adult somehow slips up that it would be
| insanely painful and difficult to free yourself -- especially
| at a running pace.
| richwater wrote:
| Why are you letting your children operate a machine with
| absolutely no supervision?
| WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote:
| Huh? I'm not doing anything.
|
| Ultimately -- yes -- those parents are responsible for
| their kid's death here. I agree. Horrible accident.
|
| But who cares? This isn't a political boxing match.
|
| The machine should be safer. Both can be true. Go outside..
| ironmagma wrote:
| What is with this obsessive victim-blaming attitude? Safety
| regulations are a technology, we invented them for a
| reason.
| trhway wrote:
| you don't get it - this machine is inherently dangerous
| even with full supervision. Check the Animats comment
| above.
| userbinator wrote:
| Perhaps "most" is an exaggeration, since I have one which
| doesn't and the comments here and images found online suggest
| that many others don't.
|
| IMHO that video shows negligence on the part of the parents.
| There was a camera there but no physical presence. Exercise
| equipment is dangerous if not used correctly, and although I'm
| one who doesn't believe in "helicopter parenting", I certainly
| wouldn't let my kid play with a treadmill with only a camera
| watching.
| benatkin wrote:
| This messes up my view of the whole company, as well as my
| afternoon. I was just starting to get interested in Peloton but
| since I hadn't gotten into it, it's easy to drop the idea.
|
| I hope their reasoning isn't that a child shouldn't have used it.
| Kids love video games. They need to figure out how to minimize
| the risk in addition to doing all they can to prevent kids from
| using it.
| yuliyp wrote:
| Sadly that's exactly their reasoning: "The Peloton Tread+ is
| safe for use at home when operated as directed and in
| accordance with our warnings and safety instructions"
| ohazi wrote:
| One of the lessons you're eventually supposed to learn when
| designing consumer products is that you don't get to decide
| what "used correctly" means.
|
| If, in _actual use_ , some people are leaving the key in the
| treadmill, then just having the key and two sentences in the
| manual isn't going to be considered an adequate substitute
| for having a tread guard.
|
| "But they didn't read the manual!" isn't going to absolve
| them of liability either.
| philjohn wrote:
| Sued a competitor into submission, allegedly dropping Apple
| Watch support because they're launching their own smartwatch
| ... they don't seem like a great company all around tbf.
| dom96 wrote:
| My view of the company has been messed up since their silly
| 2019 ad.
| fmakunbound wrote:
| I need a key to start my Sole, and you can attach the key to
| yourself while operating it (in case you fall off). A child
| getting mangled under the tread couldn't have happened with that
| simple mechanism in place.
| tigershark wrote:
| In the video that another user posted the treadmill was already
| running because the sister was using it and the little child
| was sucked inside. How the key would have helped in this
| situation?
| phnofive wrote:
| The children were playing with it unsupervised - presumably
| this is why there was a camera trained on them, but no one
| was actually watching.
| slantyyz wrote:
| Substitute the girl using the treadmill with one of the
| parents. The kid with the ball still gets caught, although
| the treadmill could get stopped sooner.
|
| Unless supervision means the child never gets further away
| from the supervising adult's arm's reach, I think the only
| thing you can do is fence off the treadmill to keep free
| range kids and pets away.
| g00gler wrote:
| > Substitute the girl using the treadmill with one of the
| parents. The kid with the ball still gets caught,
| although the treadmill could get stopped sooner.
|
| Doesn't seem likely. His parent would either fall because
| the treadmill slowed down, running into him and injuring
| them both or they would have told them to stop it because
| it's clearly dangerous
| bdibs wrote:
| As soon as the girl got off instead of continuing to drag the
| child under it, it would have stopped. It probably wouldn't
| have completely stopped it from happening but it certainly
| would have improved the outcome.
| dang wrote:
| Url changed from https://www.businessinsider.com/regulators-urge-
| safety-recal..., which points to this.
| varispeed wrote:
| If this was a small company, wouldn't regulator simply shut it
| down?
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