[HN Gopher] Paternoster Lift
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Paternoster Lift
Author : fortran77
Score : 95 points
Date : 2021-04-18 19:35 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (en.wikipedia.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (en.wikipedia.org)
| jiripospisil wrote:
| I used to use one almost every day when I was studying at CVUT
| FEL. Sure it looks cool but riding it is not all that great. If
| you are alone, it's relatively fine. But when multiple people
| want to get in or out it becomes quite a hassle because you need
| to move before the lift fully reaches the floor, otherwise
| there's not enough time for the others. Also, do you know what
| happens if you touch the inside of the lift's shaft? The whole
| freaking thing immediately stops. Guess how I know.
|
| If you're curious about what it actually looks like when you loop
| around, have a look at
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey5b3qm3-EI
| Scene_Cast2 wrote:
| Ski lifts & air trams solved this problem by uncoupling the
| passenger unit from the cable at the entry / exit stations -
| the chairs therefore "loiter" around the passenger area for
| longer. I think another commenter mentioned a similar system,
| too.
| ddek wrote:
| Sadly, impractical in this case. The ski lifts work because
| there are (usually) only two (but occassionally 3) terminals.
| In contrast, the point of a paternoster is that every floor
| is a terminal.
| bombcar wrote:
| If it hadn't been surpassed by regular elevators you could
| easily design one that would "drop" a car at a floor and
| then the next hook would pick it up.
|
| Or just stop turning for a bit. Not worth it likely.
| ddek wrote:
| Not at all, IMO.
|
| I did a little bit of reasoning after reading this thread
| (I fucking love paternosters), and thought that any
| measure you could take to improve the safety or
| efficiency would likely have a detrimental effect. For
| example, if you did decouple the carriages at the floors,
| then there would be a period of accelleration where
| embarkment would be much more dangerous. People would
| still attempt to jump onto the carriages during this
| phase, because we can't avoid people being people. I know
| for sure I'd take that risk.
|
| I think the way they're run now (slow and steady) is
| ideal, and investing heavily in sensors so they can stop
| and restart quickly elevates this. Overengineered
| solutions about coupling and (god help us) doors will
| probably solve a couple of minor issues and create a few
| new major ones.
| jozvolskyef wrote:
| I used to take the very same paternoster daily, too! The trick
| is to jump half a metre up or down to give the other person
| plenty of time to comfortably enter or leave.
| smcl wrote:
| There is also one at the main ceska posta by Brno hlavni
| nadrazi. I was excited to try it but I had the same feeling -
| it's not a place for more than one person. And I am glad I read
| your sentence about touching the lift shaft before I did it
| myself because I would have 100% done the same thing.
| lathiat wrote:
| See also Tom Scott's paternoster video:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJBD1wf-YQ
| rozab wrote:
| Tom Scott: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJBD1wf-YQ
| FiddlerClamp wrote:
| In David Lodge's novel, "Small World," there's a great scene
| where one character chases another through a paternoster. The one
| being chased thinks that the compartment will flip over when it
| reaches the top, and comes down standing on his head!
| edem wrote:
| When I was a kid I always wanted to go up to the top but I was
| afraid that it would turn upside down and I'd fall on my face. I
| still regret not trying it.
| the-dude wrote:
| In the 80ies I saw a paternoster filing cabinet at a
| municipality.
| lb1lf wrote:
| Paternoster lifts (or a close relative[0]) are sometimes used
| in warehouses; at a former employer we had two units with X
| shelves - probably around 20 - each, storing a metric shitload
| of parts. (Each shelf being approx. 1x4m/3.3x13ft)
|
| Did sound a bit like the Gotterdammerung while it did its
| thing, but absurdly efficient space utilization.
|
| 0) Close relative as the mechanism is the same, however they
| tend to only run when a specific storage location is requested,
| not continuously.)
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Have seen them at libraries. Somehow they are able to dump off
| containers of books at the proper floor for reshelving.
| dukoid wrote:
| The police office in Babylon Berlin has one
| ddek wrote:
| I wish they weren't as dangerous. They really are a huge
| improvement on the conventional elevator in terms of efficiency.
|
| At Sheffield, many people are scared of the paternoster so choose
| the elevators opposite. I'd guess the paternoster riders still
| outnumber that crowd, by at least a factor of 5. Despite the
| pressure, there was rarely a queue for the paternoster at 0845,
| but there was for the two massive elevators opposite. The
| elevator congestion gets so bad the university employs an
| attendant, with one carriage assigned to the odd floors, and the
| other the evens.
|
| The paternoster is just so much easier. You don't have to press a
| button, wait ages, then have multiple slow stops en-route.
|
| You do occassionally have to wait for a carriage - Sheffield had
| max 2 per carriage, and it is generally considered rude to get in
| a carriage with a stranger outside of peak hours. There's also
| the risk of stoppages, which are particularly painful if your
| carriage is in the ~1.5m window between floors (+/- 1m based on
| your athleticism) where you can't find a way to get out. In that
| case, I hope you're not claustrophobic.
| herodoturtle wrote:
| Came here expecting to find a heart-warming hitch-hiking story
| about the quaint village of Paternoster in South Africa.
|
| Learnt about an inventive passenger elevator instead! :-)
| iancmceachern wrote:
| I did a senior design project in school with the Coors Brewery,
| largest in the US (world?). I'll always remember their "manlifts"
| that never stop, and can take you to all floors of the Brewery.
| Like these...
|
| https://youtu.be/fCPRAjWn8hU
| dang wrote:
| If curious, past threads:
|
| _Paternoster Lifts: Cyclic Chain Elevators with No Buttons,
| Doors or Stops (2016)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16562742 - March 2018 (112
| comments)
|
| _Lovin ' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about
| paternosters_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10058885 -
| Aug 2015 (56 comments)
|
| _Paternoster_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9284672 -
| March 2015 (72 comments)
| efrafa wrote:
| There was one at the college where I studied. Scary as hell :)
| andyjohnson0 wrote:
| The university that I went to in the late eighties had a
| paternoster in a tall (10+ floor) building and they were great
| fun. Very quick and easy to move between floors. I always liked
| using them.
|
| I remember zoneing out once while riding them and accidentally
| going over the top. From what I remember there was a sign on the
| wall that faced the compartment after it passed the top floor
| cautioning you to keep still - presumbly so you didn't trigger a
| motion sensor while your cab engaged with the drive wheel. It was
| no big deal.
|
| Second year students used to scare the nervous first year newbies
| by going under or over and emerging standing on their hands.
| stakkur wrote:
| Sheffield?
| [deleted]
| eliaspro wrote:
| Although new Paternosters most likely will never be built, the
| Thyssen-Krupp Multi has been in development for quite some time
| now and the result partially resembles Paternoster, but adds
| things like per-cabin independence and freely routed (also
| horizontal) movement to the whole idea.
|
| https://youtu.be/E7QlAsxJP-g
|
| I don't know whether there are plans for an actual deployment of
| this technology right now, but the idea and concept by itself is
| fascinating.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _the Thyssen-Krupp Multi has been in development for quite
| some time now and the result partially resembles Paternoster,
| but adds things like per-cabin independence and freely routed
| (also horizontal) movement to the whole idea._
|
| _Finally_ someone is working to make turbolifts from Star Trek
| happen.
| caf wrote:
| Or the Great Glass Elevator from Mr Wonka's chocolate
| factory.
| flog wrote:
| By the voiceover, I can always tell a German company produced
| english video. There's a very particular accent.
| majewsky wrote:
| Interesting. I'm German, and I cannot recognize any sort of
| German accent in this.
| lbotos wrote:
| Not OP for me, Mobility at 47 was a hint, but it's not
| super noticeable. Dunno what they were picking up on.
| wongarsu wrote:
| There is also a Tom Scott video about the test tower for the
| Thyssen Multi, with some more details
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdTsbFS4xmI
|
| It will be interesting to see how it will be used. You really
| need someone bold enough to design a building around high
| capacity, 2d elevators. And if the elevators don't work out you
| have severe problems using the building ... Selling this has to
| be an uphill battle until it's proven in a few locations.
| eliaspro wrote:
| I live close to the tower and I was really positively
| surprised how it turned out. It is located next to Rottweil,
| the oldest town of Baden-Wurttemberg with a lot of buildings
| of historical value. There was the fear it would destroy its
| overall appearance, but I feel like it complements it just
| perfect. Especially during sunrise/sunset the light creates a
| beautiful effect on the tower's winding facade.
|
| See: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:TK-
| Elevator-Te...
|
| https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:TK-Elevator-
| Te...
|
| https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:TK-Elevator-
| Te...
| Waterluvian wrote:
| I'm shocked that they're estimated as being only 30x more
| dangerous than conventional elevators.
|
| I would have guessed thousands of times more dangerous.
| Someone wrote:
| They're moving slowly (they get their efficiency from as good
| as eliminating waiting times, not from moving at high speed),
| and (typically) are only used in areas where most of the riders
| are healthy adults (personnel lifts in office buildings)
|
| And as another user already said, they look scary enough to
| make you pay attention.
| nicklecompte wrote:
| I think there's a lot going on in that 30x stat and I wish the
| citation was better:
|
| - most elevator accidents occur during maintenance, which I
| assume is similar for paternosters. So the fact that elevators
| are seemingly safer for _passengers_ might not statistically
| factor in much to the overall safety record: e.g. paternosters
| could be 1000x as dangerous for passengers but only 5x as
| dangerous for technicians
|
| - relatedly, I would suspect most paternosters are better
| maintained than most elevators and less likely to have a
| dangerous mechanical failure
|
| - and as the commenters stated, passengers are likely to be
| more alert when using a paternoster (no accidents like stepping
| in to an empty shaft)
|
| Regardless I suspect you are correct that a well-maintained
| paternoster is at least hundreds of times more dangerous for
| passengers than a well-maintained elevator. As far as I can
| tell the stats given on Wikipedia don't refute that (but I wish
| I knew more about their source).
| londons_explore wrote:
| What injuries would be common on a paternoster?
| nicklecompte wrote:
| I don't think any injuries would be _common_ and that
| paternosters are safer than stairs and escalators.
| Intuitively it seems that crushing accidents on the
| extremities would be quite a bit more likely than
| elevators, along with tripping accidents when entering
| /leaving the paternoster.
| bombcar wrote:
| The obvious one (getting half in the car and getting
| crushed) is likely relatively uncommon - as it should be
| possible to make the engine weak enough that it can't do
| major harm.
| cma wrote:
| Wouldn't the momentum of the system alone do that?
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| I wonder how that compares to escalators, given how safe
| elevators are.
| hibbelig wrote:
| Having used one, I guess people just behave differently. For
| example, when riding an elevator, you might be looking at your
| smartphone, but if you take the stairs, you don't.
|
| Getting onto and off a paternoster is pretty exciting, so you
| won't be bored enough to look at the smartphone :-)
| zeotroph wrote:
| Conventional closing-doors elevators are just absurdly safe,
| even stairs (moving or non-moving) are more dangerous. People
| die around elevators when climbing onto the roof when it gets
| stuck or forcing the doors open instead of staying put. Once it
| gets moving again bad things can happen.
|
| But as hinted at in the safety section, with modern sensors and
| some brains behind them paternoster can be made safe. You can
| even make them wheelchair accessible by gradually stopping a
| cabin and informing all other passengers about that.
|
| And when a department in a large and busy office building is
| spread across a few floors then a paternoster is the most
| efficient way of moving between floors.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| > Conventional closing-doors elevators are just absurdly
| safe, even stairs (moving or non-moving) are more dangerous.
|
| I used this argument when my workplace was encouraging people
| to "take the stairs" for supposed health reasons. It was
| rejected because science and statistics are only accepted
| when they support one's desired conclusions.
| brundolf wrote:
| The name was the most interesting part for me:
|
| > The name paternoster ("Our Father", the first two words of the
| Lord's Prayer in Latin) was originally applied to the device
| because the elevator is in the form of a loop and is thus similar
| to rosary beads used as an aid in reciting prayers.
| dcminter wrote:
| Huh. I always assumed it was because they looked a bit like a
| confessional with the two doors side-by-side.
|
| Many years ago I worked in Viscount House (since demolished) at
| Heathrow Airport where there was a paternoster lift. One day a
| workman tried to take a wooden ladder through it - it didn't
| fit. The result was... loud.
|
| I thought it was quite fun to use, but for years after I had
| minor nightmares about being in the thing with various things
| going wrong. My subconscious apparently wasn't a fan!
| vbsteven wrote:
| In Flemish (and probably Dutch but not sure) the word
| paternoster is used for rosary beads. I had never heard of
| the paternoster lift before now but just hearing the name
| made it immediately clear to me what it was.
| dcminter wrote:
| It makes perfect sense; I just never questioned the
| etymology I invented.
| cecja wrote:
| I worked in an agency that had one of these in germany. You are
| not allowed to build new ones but the ones that are installed can
| still be used. It's kinda scary for the first three or four times
| but after that it's an amazing use of transportation in an
| office. The thing that most people freaks out is going over the
| turn because everything is dark and you see the motors directly
| in front of your face.
|
| We dressed ours up as tunnel of horror on halloween, good times.
| omnibrain wrote:
| There is also the "man engine" which was used in mines until the
| developement of steel cable based lifts:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_engine
| karmakaze wrote:
| The first I ever knew of it was in the 1985 German comedy Manner
| (Men) that featured it in the credits. Intensifyingly funny.
|
| [0] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089656/
| dTal wrote:
| I wonder what it is about this that captures the Hacker News
| imagination? Something about it being a "better" solution which
| we, as a society, have been inexplicably denied?
| nelsonmandela wrote:
| Why don't they have them tick like clocks so it actually stops at
| a floor?
| alisonkisk wrote:
| Wikipedia days Hitachi launched one that does that.
|
| Why never before? Because modern elevators were invented.
| Vaslo wrote:
| Literally lost 30 mins on YouTube watching these things in
| action. Thanks?
| zeke wrote:
| There were several in Stuttgart. One at a Uni building, which
| I've heard is now defunct. Two are in the Stuttgart Rathaus. They
| may still be in service.
|
| I was showing my son that the floor will fold up so it won't cut
| your foot off, but I did not see the switch attached. The floor
| edge folded up, the switch stopped the Paternoster and sounded
| the alarm. I apologized to people there that there was no real
| problem and waited a few minutes for them to turn it back on. My
| son told on me when we got home.
| Someone wrote:
| That page got me to https://www.humphrey-manlift.com/belt-
| manlift/
|
| It surprises me that, apparently, you can still buy these. They
| look too risky to me for modern risk-averse society (what if
| personnel carries a ruck sack? Is too voluminous to fit through
| that floor hole?)
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| I assume this is addressed by only having them accessible for
| trained personnel vs. the general public. It could also be
| solved by having a pressure sensitive, breakaway panel that
| stops the lift (triggers one stopping distance before a hard
| edge is reached).
| bombcar wrote:
| I don't really see that as much more dangerous than various
| other forms of heavy equipment - think bucket trucks and those
| forklift attachments that turn them into bucket trucks - vs
| climbing a power pole.
| jjt-yn_t wrote:
| While they were in use in the 1980s, where I worked, 50 yards
| or so away was the elevator option if you were carrying
| anything, say, not belt-attachable thus leaving both hands free
| for the manlift. Great timesaver. Some years later removed and
| the concrete space covered with a metal plate.
| amelius wrote:
| Probably more dangerous than a Peloton threadmill.
| lmilcin wrote:
| I think this is wrong way to use word "dangerous".
|
| "Dangerous" should be left for when it easy for a normal person
| to get hurt or get somebody else hurt even when they are
| attentive and act rationally.
|
| A device that can suddenly explode when correctly used is
| "dangerous".
|
| I think this lift is perfectly safe as is Peloton threadmil,
| knives, cars, and bunch other stuff, because each can be
| operated safely and more than that, it is with a capability of
| a normal person to operate the device safely. Whether they
| choose to do so is another matter.
|
| The threadmill cases were due to adults leaving safety keys in
| the threadmill.
|
| How is a threadmill with a functional safety key described as
| "dangerous" because some stupid parent left it with a key in?
|
| If you are a moron you can make anything dangerous.
| dbavaria wrote:
| What stops a child/pet from injury even when an adult is
| properly using the safety key?
|
| Plastic bags are not inherently dangerous to most adults, but
| we consider them to be a danger for animals and small
| children. Danger in this context extends to more than your
| target demographic for a product.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| You'll find communication easier if you use the common shared
| meanings of words.
| jjgreen wrote:
| Terrific things, there is one at the University in Sheffield. At
| the start of each academic year, freshers dare each-other to "go
| around the bottom" to the extent that there are stern warnings
| posted about this unbalancing the mechanism and leading to it
| stopping working (I'm pretty sure that's not true).
| KineticLensman wrote:
| We routinely over traveled in the paternoster in the Lecture
| theatres at the Uni of Leeds in the 1980s. If you were on the
| top floor the queues to go down could be very long so it was
| faster to go up and over and effectively jump the queu.
|
| Never saw any injuries, incidentally
| dejv wrote:
| We have two functional paternosters in my hometown and you can
| easily drive around the clock in them. There are warning signs,
| but once you miss the last stop there are another signs that
| tell you not to panic.
| the-dude wrote:
| Reminds me about an elevator in a hotel in LA, around ~2008.
| The hotel and the elevator made the distinct impression of
| being about a century old. Maybe it even said so in the
| brochure.
|
| In the elevator there was a plaquate(?) wich said something
| like _in case of an emergency, don 't panic_. I mean, in
| which cases are we supposed to panic then?
| alisonkisk wrote:
| It's fine to panic in safe situations.
| dash2 wrote:
| Essex has (had?) one too, with the warning/invitation:
| "Overtravel in lift is not dangerous, but not recommended."
| twic wrote:
| As I remember it, it said "overtravel through the loft and
| sump ...". Overtravel through the sump was somehow a lot less
| appealing than through the loft.
| Dyac wrote:
| My mother visited my sister at Sheffield University years ago
| and accidentally ended up going over the top-of course it was
| fine but it somehow took her by surprise and she mentions it
| every time the topic of Sheffield comes up.
| ddek wrote:
| 'accidentally'
|
| Like, there's no problem with going around the top. At
| Sheffield, the mechanics are all hidden away enough that the
| risk of catching something is fairly low. These areas became
| a site of illicit advertisements. Some of the best raves were
| publicised with posters over the top, for example.
|
| The bigger risk is that the lift stops while you're in the
| top. Even then, it usually gets going within 20 minutes.
| gregoriol wrote:
| 20 minutes ? wow, that's quite a long time to spend in such
| a small place and if you are outside the normal zone
| userbinator wrote:
| I think the warning is more to discourage people from using the
| other direction as a shortcut.
|
| That, and the huge chain wheels at the ends are even more
| dangerous to get things stuck in.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| Going in the wrong direction is never a shortcut. It could be
| used to avoid waiting for an empty car.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| Hence, a shortcut.
| scroot wrote:
| Shout out to the arts tower at Uni Sheffield, the first place I
| ever saw one of these!
| shazzy wrote:
| Here is a segment that The One Show did on the University in
| Sheffield one, for anyone who is interested in seeing it in
| action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAjYAfb_HPk
| ndom91 wrote:
| Have ridden the ones at Goethe Uni in Frankfurt, Germany. Love
| them!
| inglor_cz wrote:
| There are some Paternosters still in operation in Czechia. Funny
| stuff when you're young, but any infirmity or trouble walking
| pretty much precludes you from using them.
| andrepd wrote:
| Obligatory Tom Scott: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJBD1wf-YQ
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