[HN Gopher] The "Granny Knot"
___________________________________________________________________
The "Granny Knot"
Author : Tomte
Score : 197 points
Date : 2021-04-19 20:01 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.fieggen.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.fieggen.com)
| modeless wrote:
| It's tough to understand verbal descriptions of knot tying so I
| never bothered to try to figure out if I was tying granny knots
| or not. Thanks to the granny knot analyzer, now I know that I've
| been doing it correctly:
| https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/grannyknotanalyser.htm
| bluenose69 wrote:
| It's pretty odd that Usain Bolt ties granny knots. As a runner, I
| use reef knots and I double tie, also, because at my slow speed I
| don't want to have to waste time retying! He could run a couple
| of 100m sprints in the time it would take me to fix my laces.
|
| This may the only context in which my running can be compared
| with Bolt's!
| kokanator wrote:
| Did anyone have to fight the urge to print the flowchart and
| paste in your shoe?
|
| Great site. Thank you.
| tagster wrote:
| The proper knot to tie for shoes is a turquoise turtle, no
| question. I always laugh (on the inside) when I see shoe laces
| with crooked bows, and even more when I see them with the fabled
| "double knot" on top of a granny knot. There's an old saying, "If
| you don't know knots, you tie lots"
| egypturnash wrote:
| oh man Ian's Shoelace Site is such a beautiful piece of what the
| web should be.
| breakfastduck wrote:
| We (UK) used to call it a 'Granny Knot' if someone at school
| pulled your tie so it became basically stuck around your neck
| because it was so tight.
|
| I know now we were totally wrong about that!
|
| This kind of website is why I love the internet. I mean, look at
| the level of devotion on display here!
| joshuaissac wrote:
| In the Midlands school I went to, this was called a 'peanut'.
| wruza wrote:
| Speaking of unwanted knot behaviors, your headphones will knot in
| a pocket if you reel them up around your hand as usual,
| introducing a twisting moment to the wire. They will knot much
| less likely, if you fold them into a /\/\/\ shape instead without
| rotational moves. Not applicable to wireless earbuds.
| meristohm wrote:
| That's how I stow extension cords and water hoses; a bunch of
| loops to either side of a thick middle of parallel cylinders,
| hung on a peg. To stretch it back out, flop the lot on the
| ground, grab an end and pull. No twist was introduced, so it's
| less likely to get bound up.
| Ma8ee wrote:
| That whole site is a goldmine.
| MildlySerious wrote:
| Both unexpected and welcome to see this site on here.
|
| I had never learned how to tie my shoes and some day decided to
| look it up online. I taught myself the Ian Knot from the pictures
| on the site and have been using it since. That was over ten years
| ago and it's still the only way I know to tie my shoes. Thank
| you, Ian.
| lmilcin wrote:
| My favorite shoelace knot is berluti knot.
|
| https://www.bestshoe99.in/how-to-tie-shoelaces/
|
| It is symmetrical, it looks beautiful, it takes about as much
| time to tie and it has exactly zero chance of untying itself.
|
| It has never failed me since I learned it.
| wffurr wrote:
| The Berluti knot looks a lot like "Ian's secure knot" mentioned
| in other threads:
| https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm
| monkeybutton wrote:
| Ha! This is how I was taught to tie my boots as a kid. I had no
| idea there was a specific name for the knot.
| tanvach wrote:
| Medlife Crisis has a great video on running a long term
| experiment comparing the two shoe tying methods:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4R5--MpP0Q
| CollinEMac wrote:
| This is why I switched to only wearing sneakers that don't have
| laces. The fact that there's a whole site dedicated to tying your
| shoes properly tells you everything you need to know and yet this
| is largely a solved problem. You might think I look childish
| wearing velco/slip-on shoes all the time but I get a lot of
| compliments on my Adidas and my Metcons.
| Jeff_Brown wrote:
| And Velcro has another advantage: you can tighten any segment
| of the shoe quickly. I really ought to use it.
| grandchild wrote:
| Shoelaces can be done without using plastic. Plastic-free
| velcro seems at least unlikely.
| aaossa wrote:
| I too prefer this approach tbh. Since a few years I've only
| used shoes or sneakers with no laces. At the beginning I though
| that I was going to have problems with it, but all has been
| good.
| ipqk wrote:
| I just leave my sneakers tied and use a shoe horn. Super fast
| and doesn't destroy the heel tab.
| meanwhile7 wrote:
| Elevate by not tying your shoes at all
| https://efficiencyiseverything.com/shoes-per-hour/
| dls2016 wrote:
| I never learned the usual way to tie shoes. I kind of do the "two
| loop" but double it up. I'm a five-year-old at heart.
|
| https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/twoloopknot.htm
|
| Professor Shoelace kind of looks like a topology professor of
| mine.
| codeulike wrote:
| Gratified to see that he also has a youtube channel and his most
| popular lacing video has 5M+ views
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DkCoG6n8vk
| qwnp wrote:
| The "Ian Knot"[0] (which, I just discovered, was invented by the
| author of that site) is quite possibly the coolest and fastest
| way to tie your shoes.
|
| [0] - https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/ianknot.htm
| hultner wrote:
| I'm not sure if it was "invented" by the author, I've been
| doing the same knot for 30 years. We call it ra-bands-knop
| (raw-strings-knot would be a literal translation) and I believe
| most kids here learn it at an early age.
| leephillips wrote:
| After I stumbled upon this site years ago, the Ian knot is how
| I tie my shoes every time.
|
| The hardest part about this knot is making sure that somebody
| is watching while you do it. Every time I tie my shoes alone, I
| feel an upwelling of regret, as if there has been an
| opportunity lost.
| zikzak wrote:
| There is a special t-shirt folding method with this same
| property.
| leephillips wrote:
| I have seen this done but have never learned it.
| pta2002 wrote:
| I need this, I absolutely suck at folding t-shirts.
| burlesona wrote:
| Link? I'd love to see / learn this.
| snypher wrote:
| Probably something like this method;
| https://youtu.be/uz6rjbw0ZA0
| leephillips wrote:
| Now what about folding fitted sheets? That's guru-level.
| Groxx wrote:
| Given a clockwise counting of corners, with the "outside"
| facing away from you (so you are looking at / reaching
| into the the elastic side): grab the
| inside of 2, invert, shove into the inside of 1.
| do the same for 3 into 4. now you have a sheet
| folded in half, with two pairs of corners together.
| grab the inside of 1+2, invert, shove into the inside of
| 3+4. now it's folded to a quarter, and all the
| messy stuff is together. lay out flat, straighten
| messy stuff a bit, so you can do the next step more
| easily. grab the whole thing, chuck into the
| closet.
| leephillips wrote:
| I've already mastered the last step.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Step 1: Only buy one set of sheets
|
| Step 2: There is no Step 2
| flatline wrote:
| That would not work for me. I need to keep one finger on the
| slip knot at all times or it becomes loose, resulting in a very
| unsatisfying knot. This has been by far the biggest hurdle to
| teaching my kids to tie a decent knot in their shoelaces: they
| can move through the motions just fine but it's always loose. I
| actually start with my left index finger on the slip knot then
| transition to my right index finger halfway through - much more
| complicated than it at first seems.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| This is my issue and the sole reason I haven't adopted the
| Ian knot. I didn't realize it but I do the same finger swap
| that you do.
|
| I'm a runner and it's important for my laces to be exactly as
| tight as I need them to be. I'm wondering if others here
| aren't as exacting with their knot tension needs.
| toxik wrote:
| I keep the starting knot taught by simply keeping the ends
| tensioned at all times when tying.
|
| Re people saying the Ian knot doesn't come undone: neither do
| my normal ones.
| latortuga wrote:
| The reason your knot does not come undone has nothing to do
| with tension and everything to do with the order of the way
| you tie it. Left over right, then right over left. If you
| learned the standard knot as a kid in the right order and
| continue to do it the same way today, then the Ian knot
| will tie the exact same knot. The only difference is that
| the Ian knot will wear your laces more evenly and it ties
| faster.
| toxik wrote:
| I didn't mean that tension keeps my knots tied (though
| clearly some tension is necessary), it was two separate
| replies -- and I'm pretty sure I make granny knots. Eh
| maybe knot.
| aidos wrote:
| I keep one of my ringfingers (specifically left hand) on the
| overhand (starter) knot while I thread the other bits. Works
| a treat.
| justinsaccount wrote:
| what slip knot?
|
| I've been using the Ian knot for probably 10 years now, if
| anything it's easier to tie it tight since you can keep the
| tension on the first not held until the very end.
| pmahoney wrote:
| Not sure if this would help, and I'm not exactly sure I'm
| understanding you correctly, but when I tie hockey stakes,
| instead of a single "left-over-right starting knot" (using
| terminology from the post), I wrap around two or even three
| times. This provides enough friction for that first knot to
| stay put while I tie the loops of the standard shoelace knot
| (not the Ian knot, with which I'm unfamiliar).
| BoiledCabbage wrote:
| Sounds like you do something similar to the surgeon's knot.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgeon%27s_knot
| Kozmik1 wrote:
| Try the Surgeon's Knot instead:
| https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/surgeonknot.htm
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Tried that knot and aside from taking several minutes for me to
| figure it out, it didn't seem to result in a knot that held
| very well. I'll stick with the standard way I learned 40 years
| ago and can do without thinking.
| fastball wrote:
| The end knot is identical to the standard bowknot, so it
| seems unlikely that this would hold any worse. If you're
| currently tying your shoes in a granny knot, I would be very
| surprised if that held better than a bowknot.
|
| I've used this method to tie all my shoes for more than a
| decade and it holds much better than the granny knot, which
| I'd guess is probably 50% of people (as whether not you end
| up with a granny or a bow knot is just the toss of a coin).
| The benefit of Ian's tying method is that it is impossible to
| end up with a granny knot.
|
| My shoes never* come untied, without needing to resort to a
| "double-knot".
|
| * Except my Sperry Docksiders, which have leather laces and
| don't seem to keep any kind of knot very well.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| My regular shoes have round laces, I'd guess they are
| nylon, some kind of synthetic fiber. Sort of slippery.
| Never have a problem with them coming untied if I pull the
| knot tight though. I don't double knot.
|
| Maybe I did the Ian knot wrong. Don't have a problem with
| the knot I use so not investigating further.
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| > My regular shoes have round laces,
|
| I don't know why anybody makes round laces, especially
| out of a material that slips.
|
| I have a pair of dress shoes that came with round laces.
| Even with a "correct" knot, even with double-knotting,
| they always came undone. I replaced the laces with
| standard flat laces. They might not look as good, but
| they look better than having to re-tie them every 30
| minutes.
| iandinwoodie wrote:
| I actually switched to the Ian Knot specifically to handle
| the stiffer leather laces of boat shoes and boots.
| Previously, getting a knot in leather to hold was a miracle
| and I would slip the shoes on and off (causing unnecessary
| wear and tear) just to avoid disturbing the knot. The Ian
| Knot allows me to treat leather laces like any other
| material and has extended the life of several pairs of
| shoes as a result.
|
| I will say that I cinch the knot tighter with leather laces
| than any other material because, like you mentioned, they
| are fussy.
| fastball wrote:
| This is how I've been tying my shoes for a while and can
| recommend! Unfortunately I did not learn it from the inventor's
| website but rather from this site[1], which may be a total
| knockoff or may be a case of "parallel thinking".
|
| [1] https://freedomknot.com/
| andrewzah wrote:
| I learned it from a 3-min TED talk [0]. I didn't realize it
| had a proper name.
|
| [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAFcV7zuUDA
| fastball wrote:
| Well so either way the "proper" way is to end up with a
| bowknot, as demonstrated. However, the TED talk's method of
| getting there I would actually classify as _wrong_.
|
| If you want to use the "bunny rabbit" method, the easiest
| way to turn your granny into a bow is just to switch which
| way you tie the laces over each other at the beginning -
| that is much easier than trying to invert the bunny ear
| thingy.
|
| However, the even easier way (and what GC was pointing out)
| is the "Ian" method, where you pull the bows through each
| other simultaneously, which (with practice) is faster and
| always guarantees a bow knot.
| ajarmst wrote:
| Related, from the "most people don't understand their shoes"
| file: it's pretty rare to see a proper heel lock on athletic
| shoes: https://www.gearpatrol.com/fitness/a696423/extra-lace-
| eyelet...
| zomglings wrote:
| This website is a gem. Bookmarked. Thank you!
| kbenson wrote:
| This site, or a page on it, has been submitted many times, and
| had many lively comment sections, in case you are interesting in
| what people said in the past.
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
| iandinwoodie wrote:
| A few years ago I switched from the "Granny Knot" to the "Ian
| Knot" [0] in order to (1) eliminate the need for "double
| knotting" and (2) straighten the bow. Despite the few
| embarrassing times early in the process where friends observed me
| struggling to tie my shoes, I can confidently say the switch has
| been worth it.
|
| [0] https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/ianknot.htm
| searine wrote:
| >the switch has been worth it.
|
| So I think it is clear that there are better alternatives to a
| granny knot in a technical sense, I am still skeptical that
| there is really value added.
|
| Outside of achieving fashion perfection on a Hollywood red
| carpet, I find it hard to imagine there is value in spending
| the time and energy to learn and remember to tie your shoes the
| right way, rather than just a double knot. It seems like more
| of a burden than anything.
| oldandboring wrote:
| I've been using the Ian knot since around 2005 and it's easily
| the most impactful "life hack" I've ever made. My shoes
| basically never come untied.
| procinct wrote:
| Doesn't it still produce the same knot as the standard shoe
| tie knot? I thought it was just a faster method?
| dsego wrote:
| One is symmetric, the other one isn't.
| iandinwoodie wrote:
| You are correct, as indicated by the following quote on the
| page I linked: "The finished Ian Knot is identical to
| either the Standard Shoelace Knot [...]."
|
| Changing my Granny Knot (unbalanced) to a Standard Shoelace
| Knot (balanced) would have produced the same result.
| However, I found the Ian Knot approach to be helpful in
| preventing me from absentmindedly reverting back to the
| Granny Knot.
| ddlatham wrote:
| Yes. I'd guess he means Ian's Secure Knot, which I also now
| use.
|
| https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm
| orthoxerox wrote:
| You are right. It's the same bowtie knot, just tied in a
| single motion.
| meristohm wrote:
| Went to the shoes to test: Ian Knot is faster and the cord
| is "relaxed" (less internal stress to contribute towards
| loosening) rather than twisted.
|
| I'll try words to describe the Ian Knot: Cross the laces,
| tuck one under the other, and pull; let go, then pick up a
| "bunny ear" loop in each hand, one on either side of the
| pre-knot; with your middle finger, push the out-side of
| each "ear" through the opposite loop; with thumb and middle
| finger of each hand, grab the loops simultaneously as they
| come through; pull tight. Looks like a double knot (two
| loops, each around the neck of the other) with each free
| end fed back through, forming the loops and ensuring easy
| undoing.
| latortuga wrote:
| Yes, it does, but the Ian Knot is more reliable, especially
| in places where you don't have the instant muscle memory
| like shoelaces. If you learn the standard knot incorrectly
| it results in you doing a Granny Knot. But if you try to
| tie the Ian's Knot, you can't tie it incorrectly because it
| just doesn't work. And of course yes, it's faster.
|
| ETA: Also, OP may have been tying a Granny Knot from time
| to time which results in shoelaces coming untied very
| quickly. So the Ian knot gets you both faster tied shoes
| and shoes that stay tied.
| nemetroid wrote:
| Some time after I started tying Ian's way, I surprised
| myself by effortlessly tying an apron behind my back.
| ce4 wrote:
| Also for fun times observe people's knots around you :)
|
| Especially funny to casually mention it to coworkers or seniors
| lwansbrough wrote:
| I did this too and also momentarily forgot how to tie my shoes!
| (Forgot the new method, and the old method.) Now I have saved
| literally minutes of my life on shoe tying.
| js2 wrote:
| The "Ian Knot" pairs well with the Japanese T-shirt folding
| technique:
|
| https://youtu.be/dNr1oLhZ0zs
|
| Also, tie wearers, take the time to learn a Full Windsor:
|
| https://youtu.be/HXJx8j7JpKY
| kilovoltaire wrote:
| I recently did this too, took about a week to get in the habit
| but now it's great!
| waynesonfire wrote:
| https://www.ted.com/talks/terry_moore_how_to_tie_your_shoes
| Someone1234 wrote:
| People are very negative about these kinds of TED talks, but I
| actually improved my hand drying technique after the TEDx on
| it:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FMBSblpcrc
|
| That and using the back of my hand/arm to push off the water
| from my body after a shower keep our towels much dryer and
| nicer.
| thelean12 wrote:
| Why would I need to worry about keeping my towels "dryer"?
| Are you showering twice a day or something?
| Someone1234 wrote:
| Because wet towels can grow mold/smell, which means I need
| to wash them more which in turn means I need to replace
| them more (since even cold washes damage tower's fibers).
|
| There's no downside to getting towels less wet (in
| particular when you're just flicking off water/pushing it
| off with your hand/arm for free), but there are upsides. So
| why not?
| tnorthcutt wrote:
| If you live in a humid environment, your towels can very
| easily get a bit funky smelling kinda quickly. Not making
| them as damp/wet can make a big difference.
| Jeff_Brown wrote:
| Mildew is rife. I am blessed/cursed with an exception
| ability to smell it.
| milofeynman wrote:
| I tie my shoe like this ever since I saw this talk. I'm not
| sure which knot it is in the OP though.
| minikites wrote:
| I recommend this knot as an upgrade:
| https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm
|
| Do the "bunny ears" way of tying your shoes but loop both "ears"
| through. Presto, a knot that won't work its way undone and you
| can usually tell when you step on a lace because there's so much
| resistance.
| sidlls wrote:
| This is how I've been tying my shoes for well over a year now,
| and it's great.
|
| Also how I tie my youngest's cleats for soccer and t-ball: he
| hasn't had his shoelaces come undone since I switched to this
| technique.
| dima55 wrote:
| Yes. I've been doing this for years. It's the only way to go.
| justinsaccount wrote:
| Indeed. I use the Ian knot normally, but if I were to be doing
| something like hiking or ice skating, I'll use that variation.
| It never comes undone.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| If you like this, you may also be interested in the Animated
| Knots website, which includes a page on Square/Reef knots, the
| Granny mistake, and the Shoelace Bow:
|
| https://www.animatedknots.com/square-knot
|
| https://www.animatedknots.com/shoelace-bow-knot
|
| The latter page links back to the submitted link!
| aphextron wrote:
| Remember websites?
| Kozmik1 wrote:
| As others have mentioned, Ian's knots has great reccommendations,
| but overlooked is the "surgeon's knot".
|
| This one has two twists instead of the normal one, and comes out
| like a square knot if done right. It won't come untied by itself,
| ever. But you can untie it by tugging on the tails of the laces.
| You can do this one with a thumb on the initial bend, unlike the
| "bunny ears" style knots.
|
| It's a hell of a lot better than the "double knot" your kids'
| teachers will do if they go to school with any kind of single
| knot, square or not. Double knotting just results in big jams
| when one tries to untie it later.
|
| Check out the surgeon's knot:
| https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/surgeonknot.htm
| bbarnett wrote:
| I don't know why, but the picture of the shoe, with the knot at
| the toe end of the shoe, makes me angry. I mean, literally
| angry, very angry, yet there is zero valid reason to be that
| emotionally charged about it.
|
| Intellectually, I wonder "how will one get their shoe off,
| without lots of work". Yet the anger is intense for some inane
| reason.
|
| Now I wonder if I need therapy, due to some shoe related horror
| in the past.
| cecilpl2 wrote:
| > the knot at the toe end of the shoe
|
| What are you talking about? That photo shows the knot at the
| heel end.
| bbarnett wrote:
| Wow. It does. Wild. I literally saw the toe end of a shoe
| there, due to the darker colour. I wonder how many others
| will see that first, or if I'm just borked.
|
| (I had to go back, stare at it, enlarge the pic, stare some
| more, then I saw it the correct way.)
| frakt0x90 wrote:
| I 100% saw it the same way you did and exclaimed aloud
| when I read this thread.
| metabagel wrote:
| That's how I saw it first too.
| Steve0 wrote:
| Just pull the ends to get it off. Works great, never gets
| untied.
| Spare_account wrote:
| Are you referring to this picture:
| https://www.fieggen.com/Dont_Link/finished-Surgeons-Knot.jpg
|
| The perspective of the picture fooled me for a moment too,
| but this knot is in the usual position.
| bbarnett wrote:
| Likely those with a heightened sense of perception are
| detecting this illusion. I mean, clearly that explains it.
| kelnos wrote:
| It actually isn't at the toe end of the shoe, but I thought
| the same thing the first time I looked at it. The bit that
| looks like the "toe" is actually the hole where your foot
| goes in, and the perspective is reversed from what you'd be
| looking at if you were staring down at shoes you are
| currently wearing. For some reason my brain initially
| interpreted the color of the "hole" as an accent color you
| might have at the toe of your shoes.
| setr wrote:
| Had I seen the shoe in the configuration you're referring to,
| I would have had the same reaction. In fact, such a position
| would be offensive to all reasonable persons. The mental
| image alone is revolting
| stouset wrote:
| I think you're mis-seeing that picture. The darker area isn't
| the toe box, it's the inside of the shoe as seen from the tip
| of the tongue.
|
| Hope that makes you feel better.
| iainmerrick wrote:
| The explanation here is excellent, but the same site has an even
| more useful page that's easy to overlook: the "granny knot
| analyser" that will tell you if your current knot is secure or
| not.
|
| https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/grannyknotanalyser.htm
|
| What a wonderful website.
| burlesona wrote:
| Today I learned I've been tying my shoes wrong for > 30 years.
| Thanks for posting this, Tomte!
| ashika wrote:
| i went through this process several years ago. it was initially
| easy to force myself into correct technique, as "do the
| opposite of what feels natural" stably led me down the right
| knot path. then after maybe six weeks or so the correct way
| felt natural and i had to burn cycles deciding if this was the
| good "feels natural" or the bad "feels natural". a year or two
| after that i was back to tying them without thinking, correctly
| now.
| Jeff_Brown wrote:
| I was hoping to learn the same, but no, turns out I've been
| doing it right. I can blame my shoelaces now, correct?
|
| (Ever since the pandemic began I've only worn sandals or a
| certain pair of sneakers with very round laces. Maybe round
| laces stick worse?)
|
| EDIT: Looks like I should try the surgeon's knot.
| gbolcer wrote:
| Now do ties. :-) Wife made me re-tie kid's prom tie 5 or 6 times
| for pictures.
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(page generated 2021-04-19 23:00 UTC)