[HN Gopher] The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Am...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social
       media posts
        
       Author : nahikoa
       Score  : 200 points
       Date   : 2021-04-21 16:53 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (news.yahoo.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (news.yahoo.com)
        
       | tengbretson wrote:
       | I bet FedEx could operate a domestic intelligence agency for like
       | a quarter of their budget.
        
         | jjk166 wrote:
         | You joke but private mail carriers don't have the same
         | restrictions on monitoring your mail that the USPS does. They
         | are free to open and inspect any package, as well as x-ray and
         | other such methods, and don't need to disclose it. Except under
         | some special circumstances, letters and parcels going through
         | the USPS, on the other hand, need a warrant to be opened. One
         | could easily imagine a program where private carriers report
         | the contents of parcels sent to or from targeted individuals or
         | even add things like listening devices or malware to items
         | being shipped. While probably not useful for dealing with
         | organized crime, if your goal is just general intelligence
         | gathering or blackmail, private carriers could easily be a
         | treasure trove.
        
           | _jal wrote:
           | > One could easily imagine a program where [...]
           | 
           | One doesn't have to imagine.
           | 
           | https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/03/cisco_shippin.
           | ..
        
           | thoughtstheseus wrote:
           | More likely to improve targeted advertising.
        
           | shuntress wrote:
           | It's not complicated.
           | 
           | Your data (we could debate whether "data about you" is
           | actually "your data" but that is a tangent discussion) is
           | valuable. FedEx can collect then sell it.
        
           | throwawayboise wrote:
           | International mail can be opened and inspected for customs
           | purposes. Otherwise it makes sense that domestic mail would
           | need a warrant to be opened.
        
         | DubiousPusher wrote:
         | I'm not sure why this is such a persistent sicking point with
         | people. The post office regularly operates with a 1-5 billion
         | dollar loss. Both UPS and Fedex operate with a net 1-5 billion
         | dollar profit. That represents a theoretical min-max profit
         | difference of about 10 to 2 billion dollar difference in any
         | given year. In a 20 trillion dollar economy it's not even a
         | rounding error.
        
       | logicslave wrote:
       | Everyone has their tin foil hat with stuff on like this, but
       | unless they are paying a 100 - 1000 engineers 250k-500k a year, I
       | doubt theyve built anything useful with uptime. Maybe they could
       | just scan a massive dataset of everyones posts, with some string
       | searching, but still. I just dont see any entity like this being
       | able to accomplish this task effectively.
        
         | _Nat_ wrote:
         | What would " _100 - 1000 engineers_ " even be doing?
         | 
         | The story starts off saying that the work's being done by
         | analysts:
         | 
         | > The work involves having analysts trawl through social media
         | sites to look for what the document describes as "inflammatory"
         | postings and then sharing that information across government
         | agencies.
         | 
         | , so it sounds more like they've got some folks browsing
         | social-media.
         | 
         | Granted, a lot of the post-scanning would seem better done by
         | bots, and stuff like sentiment-analysis could help classify
         | posts for human inspection, so they'd probably want to hire a
         | few engineers, but why hundreds? And why 250-500 kUSD/yr for
         | such mundane work?
        
         | millzlane wrote:
         | The entity's only job is to create a RFP and pick one. It's the
         | company they hire that you have to worry about. The one thing
         | we can count on is the government will spend the money to get
         | what they want.
        
         | barbazoo wrote:
         | Why do you believe that unless they're paying their developers
         | "250k-500k a year", they wouldn't have built something useful?
        
       | netfortius wrote:
       | The things that troubles me the most is abysmal record when it
       | comes to delivery (pun intended) of fundamental services, e.g.
       | interruptions in delivery of mail for weeks, then only partial
       | delivery, critical documents lost, medication lost, credit cards
       | "lost", etc., etc.
        
       | snowwrestler wrote:
       | Pretty much any federal agency you have heard of has an
       | investigative dept that employs federal special agents. These are
       | law enforcement roles with the same training, authority, and
       | responsibilities as investigative agents in the FBI, etc.
       | 
       | They were created to meet the specific law enforcement needs of
       | each agency. Dept of Education agents investigate misuse of Dept
       | of Education funds, for example. The Postal Inspectors
       | investigate illegal use of, or threats to, the mail system.
       | 
       | After 9/11 a lot of these depts got new infusions of resources,
       | and instructions to do a lot more information sharing. There was
       | a feeling that the attacks of 9/11 could have been prevented if
       | existing disparate info had been better collected and collated.
       | 
       | So it's not that surprising that these agencies will seem to
       | stray out of their lanes. If Postal is monitoring broadly for
       | threats against their systems, but sees other concerning info,
       | they are supposed to share it.
       | 
       | This is all intended to be explanatory; I'm not saying that it's
       | how things should be.
       | 
       | I will say that personally I have fewer concerns about programs
       | to monitor public content on the Internet, than programs that
       | seek to access, monitor, and store content that people intended
       | to be privately communicated to other people.
        
         | ryandrake wrote:
         | > I will say that personally I have fewer concerns about
         | programs to monitor public content on the Internet, than
         | programs that seek to access, monitor, and store content that
         | people intended to be privately communicated to other people.
         | 
         | This distinction is disappearing quickly in the current
         | Internet, where conversations are increasingly company-mediated
         | and facilitated. There's no such thing as a "private"
         | conversation on Facebook or similar hosted platforms. You might
         | _address_ a message to your friend, but you are _sending it_ to
         | Facebook, and they ultimately get to decide how private it is.
         | It 's likely a single "is_private" bit in a database!
         | 
         | I'm more and more defaulting to a very strict rule: Never send
         | anything to the Internet that I intend to be private. Whether
         | it be a forum post, a message board, an E-mail, or a chat
         | message. Keep my private pictures off of "secure, private"
         | cloud storage. Don't do anything on a web site that I wouldn't
         | want talked about in my local newspaper. Consider it all public
         | knowledge because it's one leak or subpoena away from actually
         | being public knowledge.
        
           | Thorentis wrote:
           | Yes, but I think OP is saying that the law should protect
           | intent. Just like with the physical mail system. It is
           | illegal to open a letter addressed to somebody else (though,
           | warrants can override this). But I am fine with the
           | principle.
           | 
           | On the other hand, if you stick a huge banner out the front
           | of your house, that information is fair game. Just like
           | posting on your Twitter profile or blog. The intent was never
           | for it to be private.
        
         | threatofrain wrote:
         | And these are their stories. Dun dun.
        
           | tim-- wrote:
           | You joke, but they actually made a TV series.
           | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inspectors
        
         | wombatmobile wrote:
         | > I will say that personally I have fewer concerns about
         | programs to monitor public content on the Internet, than
         | programs that seek to access, monitor, and store content that
         | people intended to be privately communicated to other people.
         | 
         | You may have fewer concerns about public monitoring vs private
         | spying, presumably because in the latter case privacy is being
         | violated in a way that isn't the case for the former.
         | 
         | But both cases are nefarious, and you don't have to choose
         | between them.
         | 
         | Both are examples of using public funds to abuse access to
         | information from end users for political purposes.
        
           | HenryBemis wrote:
           | Public vs Private:
           | 
           | Public: I can think of an example. If the USPS finds out that
           | in a certain area of a certain city, there is a big chance to
           | have riots "tomorrow after 10am" (protests because of X-Y-Z
           | resason), they can alert their local teams to e.g. deliver
           | the post at 7am instead of 11am. Yes, some operations would
           | be impacted (e.g. noon delivery won't happen), but this will
           | protect the staff, protect the items (letters, parcels), the
           | vehicles, etc.
           | 
           | If they just hoard data to feed a bigger best (e.g. NSA)
           | then, the data is still out there (my public blog, your
           | public blog, HN comments, etc.) and they are up for the
           | taking. In which case it doesn't matter if it is a federal
           | agent carrying a NSA or a USPS badge.
        
         | dataflow wrote:
         | > Pretty much any federal agency you have heard of has an
         | investigative dept that employs federal special agents. These
         | are law enforcement roles with the same training, authority,
         | and responsibilities as investigative agents in the FBI, etc.
         | 
         | Maybe worth noting that USPIS is older than the FBI. It's the
         | oldest federal law enforcement agency.
        
           | belval wrote:
           | That's a fantastic trivia fact, I guess threats to the postal
           | service are a very old problem so it makes sense.
        
             | dataflow wrote:
             | Not merely threats to the postal service itself, but
             | threats _via_ the postal service. I imagine the best to get
             | away with (say) fraud has always been to avoid physical
             | presence, i.e. using mail.
        
         | Scoundreller wrote:
         | If they're disinterested in private comms, it's because they're
         | very interested in public comms. If they're wondering what the
         | public thinks and would make improvements, great, but if
         | they're targeting the public because what they say is too true
         | to handle, ugh.
        
       | GCA10 wrote:
       | Lots of sentiment today that the USPS is way out of its zone of
       | expertise in doing this -- and that is possible.
       | 
       | But it's worth noting that the USPS has had its own legion of
       | postal inspectors going back to the 19th century, when they were
       | a (comparatively) huge part of the U.S. government, and the FBI,
       | etc. did not exist.
       | 
       | Some 1,200 postal inspectors are still around, and they play
       | important roles on federal prosecutions related to mail fraud,
       | drug shipments, etc. There's a good Wikipedia entry on it all:
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Inspectio...
        
         | realityIsntHere wrote:
         | A total monopoly on daily mail and we get snooped.
         | 
         | I can't tell if this is corruption or genuine work.
        
         | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
         | "When our Corps goes in as guards over the mail, that mail must
         | be delivered," wrote Secretary of the Navy Edwin Denby. "Or
         | there must be a Marine dead at the post of duty. There can be
         | no compromise."
         | 
         | https://www.military.com/off-duty/2020/08/25/intense-rules-u...
         | 
         | The mail is serious business.
        
         | TheRealPomax wrote:
         | Sure, but the 19th century ended over 120 years ago. So that's
         | _kind of_ not relevant to how they 're structured and operate
         | today?
        
           | JJMcJ wrote:
           | I think 1,200 investigators for the entirety of the USPS's
           | operations isn't out of line.
        
           | GavinMcG wrote:
           | Not relevant? Do you somehow imagine that how things were
           | done in the past _doesn 't_ affect "how they're structured
           | and operate today"?
        
           | DanBC wrote:
           | People forget that spying on citizens by the post office goes
           | back _hundreds_ of years. This doesn 't make it in any way
           | acceptable, but people shouldn't act surprised that post
           | offices spy on citizens when it's an activity that's baked
           | into the service from the very early days.
           | 
           | https://pasttenseblog.wordpress.com/2019/09/03/today-in-
           | lond...
           | 
           | > The Post office was of central importance to this
           | surveillance. The 'Secret Office' - an arm of what was
           | basically a secret service, dedicated to opening post to
           | discover plots against the government - was formed around
           | 1653 under Cromwell's post-Civil War republican Protectorate;
           | but it proved so handy, the Office was continued after the
           | restoration of the monarchy.
           | 
           | [...]
           | 
           | > Morland also recorded what he saw as the basic function of
           | his devices and of surveillance in general: "a skilful prince
           | ought to make a watch tower of his general post office... and
           | there place such careful sentinels as that, by their care and
           | diligence, he may have a constant view of all that passes."
           | 
           | Samuel Morland was interesting and has some early computing
           | devices.
           | 
           | https://history-computer.com/samuel-morland/
           | 
           | https://history-computer.com/samuel-morland-biography-
           | histor...
           | 
           | https://www.headstuff.org/culture/history/terrible-people-
           | fr...
           | 
           | One of the links talks about letters sealed in the Spanish
           | manner.
           | 
           | https://regencyredingote.wordpress.com/2012/11/16/sealing-
           | wa...
           | 
           | > It was then that the superior qualities of the new
           | "Spanish" wax came to be highly valued. The basic formula of
           | this new sealing compound was a blend of shellac, mastic,
           | turpentine, chalk or gypsum, and a coloring agent, to which
           | essential oils and/or fragrant balsams might be added to
           | facilitate melting and impart a pleasant fragrance. This
           | "sealing wax" could be melted to a thick viscous fluid which
           | would readily and firmly adhere to the parchment or paper on
           | which it was placed. While warm, it would take a clear
           | impression of any seal that was pressed in to it. It would
           | remain solid, even in the heat of summer, and was flexible
           | enough to remain intact while affixed to the document on
           | which it had been placed. However, it was extremely difficult
           | to remove a seal made of this material and replace it after
           | the contents of the sealed document had been read. This
           | compound was more brittle than beeswax so it could be easily
           | broken, thus providing clear evidence of tampering. Even if
           | the seal could be removed unbroken, any attempt to re-affix a
           | seal was nearly impossible, since, with such a low melting
           | point, the image which had been impressed into it would loose
           | its crispness, if not melt completely, if additional hot wax
           | was used to re-attach it, yet another sign of tampering.
        
         | JKCalhoun wrote:
         | Can't help thinking of W.A.S.T.E. though.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crying_of_Lot_49
        
       | TameAntelope wrote:
       | One thing I haven't really seen discussed (or maybe I'm just
       | blind) is the fact that the USPS _isn 't_ a government
       | organization quite like the others. It's supposed to be a more-
       | private entity that competes in a market.
       | 
       | Feels weird to give them law enforcement powers while still
       | putting them up against private industry as competition, couldn't
       | they just arrest all the UPS workers or something (gross
       | oversimplification but still)?
        
       | jfengel wrote:
       | News flash: people read things that you make public on the Web.
        
         | DocTomoe wrote:
         | There is a qualitative difference between "people reading
         | things you make public on the web" and "a government-funded
         | agency uses extensive technological means to read, categorize
         | and threat-assess your statements on the net, and have the
         | power to throw you into jail for an indeterminate length of
         | time - or worse."
        
           | [deleted]
        
       | _-david-_ wrote:
       | It seems like this should be the job of the FBI, DHS or some
       | other agency like that. The Post Office should deliver mail and
       | packages not investigate material on the internet.
        
         | mattmanser wrote:
         | To be fair, look at it from totally the opposite direction to
         | see their point of view.
         | 
         | Your workers are under threat from poorly made postal bombs
         | that could easily blow up during processing, killing your
         | workers. Due to the vast volume of post you process, the threat
         | is real and non-trivial.
         | 
         | Do you do nothing?
         | 
         | I think you obviously have to do something, whether you go as
         | far as they did is what's up for debate.
        
           | cblackthornekc wrote:
           | You don't even have to say bombs, the article lists a great
           | example. They are tracking protests. I think I would like to
           | be aware if where I normally deliver mail I'm walking into a
           | protest that might get violent.
        
             | throwawayboise wrote:
             | If I turn the corner on my mail route and see an angry mob
             | down the block, I turn around? It's not like people don't
             | have eyes anymore.
        
           | _-david-_ wrote:
           | If there is a bomb threat why can't the FBI or DHS
           | investigate? That is the entire purpose of those agencies.
           | 
           | Should every government agency have a department to
           | investigate threats towards their employees? Why limit it to
           | just the USPS? Why not give investigative powers to the
           | Agency for Global Media or the Administration for Community
           | Living? Should those employees have to risk the very "real
           | and non-trivial" threats they face?
           | 
           | If this was just some sort of way of detecting bombs or
           | anthrax or something I think most of us could get behind it.
           | This is turning the post office into an investigative crime
           | solving agency and not even strictly for the thing they do
           | (mail delivery).
        
             | jdavis703 wrote:
             | Agency for Global Media has their own law enforcement that
             | investigates threats against the agency and it's personnel.
             | This ranges from securing HQ against protests to
             | investigating what happens to broadcast infrastructure in
             | war zones like Afghanistan to securing classified
             | information.
        
           | ErikVandeWater wrote:
           | > Your workers are under threat from poorly made postal bombs
           | that could easily blow up during processing
           | 
           | How does that threat compare to threats the post office
           | accepts for it's workers such as being killed in traffic
           | accidents?
        
           | stefan_ wrote:
           | Yes, when will the USPS do something about the 0 postal
           | workers killed from letter bombs this year, last year, the
           | year before last, the year before last before last year, ...?
           | 
           | More of them are endangered by their shitbox LLV trucks
           | catching on fire.
        
             | jjgreen wrote:
             | "In 1975, no one died, ..."
             | 
             | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUoT5AxFpRs
        
             | filoleg wrote:
             | Bombs in packages isn't the only thing that threatens
             | postal workers that USPS is trying to protect.
             | 
             | For example, look at this[0]. Two people physically
             | attacked a postal worker after accusing her of "stealing
             | their stimulus checks"[1].
             | 
             | Sure, you can say that this case had nothing to do with
             | USPS surveillance. But it just goes to show that there are
             | plenty of serious dangers to postal workers other than just
             | nigh-non-existent "bomb in the mail" scenarios that you
             | seem to be fixating on.
             | 
             | 0. https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/police-make-arrest-
             | after...
             | 
             | 1. https://news.yahoo.com/usps-worker-beaten-michigan-
             | alleged-1...
        
               | _-david-_ wrote:
               | That has nothing to do with this issue. The article is
               | about USPS investigating online threats. Do you really
               | think people who are going to beat USPS workers are going
               | to post about it online and that the USPS would be better
               | equipped than agencies whose sole purpose is to deal with
               | these kind of things?
               | 
               | If you think every postal worker should have some sort of
               | security / police going with them on their routes that is
               | one thing, but that is not at all what this article is
               | about.
        
             | reaperducer wrote:
             | _when will the USPS do something about the 0 postal workers
             | killed from letter bombs this year_
             | 
             | And how do you think that number became zero? Magic bomb-
             | negating fairies?
        
           | kelnos wrote:
           | Yes, you contact the FBI and get them to investigate, just
           | like everyone else does when federal crimes are involved.
           | 
           | (Also, echoing the sibling: where are all these poorly made
           | postal bombs you're talking about? I can't remember anything
           | in recent and not-so-recent memory.)
        
           | yosito wrote:
           | > Do you do nothing?
           | 
           | No, you coordinate with the CIA or FBI to investigate threats
           | against the government.
        
             | popinman322 wrote:
             | Postal inspectors can hand off to other teams for
             | investigation of affairs that might affect more than the
             | post system-- hence this memo.
             | 
             | If postal workers are at risk then it's within their
             | purview (as it has been for over 200 years) to investigate
             | and warn local offices in addition to other government
             | offices.
        
           | GCA10 wrote:
           | A couple postal workers died about 20 years ago when someone
           | used the U.S. mails as an anthrax-delivery mechanism. Details
           | are here:
           | https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5239a2.htm Note
           | that's there's also a deeper CDC analysis looking at whether
           | mail sorting is a job with higher than usual mortality rates.
           | (Answer: probably not).
           | 
           | Granted, that's a long time ago, and it doesn't happen
           | habitually. But if you're going to have a workforce safety
           | team (good idea), they will likely want to either actually do
           | something to stop the threats, or at least signal to
           | management that they aren't totally clueless
        
             | java-man wrote:
             | Just don't ask where that anthrax strain came from.
        
         | shadowgovt wrote:
         | The postal service, as a Constitutionally-mandated requirement
         | of the federal government (though the post itself is a private
         | company, responsibility for ensuring there _is_ a post and that
         | it _works_ is Congress 's), is some very old and very serious
         | law and enforcement.
         | 
         | The Postal Inspection Service traces its lineage to 1772; the
         | FBI to 1908. USPIS being separate from the FBI is one of those
         | quirks of American enforcement, like how the Secret Service is
         | responsible for physical security of the President and other
         | political figures... And financial services.
        
           | wtallis wrote:
           | > Constitutionally-mandated requirement of the federal
           | government
           | 
           | The constitution says: "The Congress shall have Power [...]
           | To establish Post Offices and post Roads;"
           | 
           | This is not a constitutional mandate. It is constitutional
           | authorization. The federal government is not obligated to
           | fully exercise every power it is granted.
        
         | renewiltord wrote:
         | There are loads of intelligence services in America. Coup
         | d'Etat has a non-exhaustive list. I'm pretty sure even the NOAA
         | does homeland security stuff.
        
       | reaperducer wrote:
       | _The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans'
       | social media posts_
       | 
       | Of course it is. Why wouldn't it? Crazy people put all kinds of
       | crazy things in the mail. Have we so quickly forgotten the
       | Unabomber? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski
       | 
       | The next time anthrax or ricin shows up in a politician's
       | mailbox, the same people gritting their teeth about this will
       | bark about why more wasn't done to detect and prevent it.
        
         | CyberDildonics wrote:
         | Why would you spend billions monitoring 300 million people when
         | you could swab politicians' mail for anthrax?
        
       | tqi wrote:
       | > The work involves having analysts trawl through social media
       | sites to look for what the document describes as "inflammatory"
       | postings
       | 
       | What exactly constitutes "monitoring"? This sounds like some
       | agents spent a few hours using Twitter's built in search to look
       | for certain keywords...
        
       | sneak wrote:
       | > _"Analysts with the United States Postal Inspection Service
       | (USPIS) Internet Covert Operations Program (iCOP) monitored
       | significant activity regarding planned protests occurring
       | internationally and domestically on March 20, 2021," says the
       | March 16 government bulletin, marked as "law enforcement
       | sensitive" and distributed through the Department of Homeland
       | Security's fusion centers. "Locations and times have been
       | identified for these protests, which are being distributed online
       | across multiple social media platforms, to include right-wing
       | leaning Parler and Telegram accounts."_
       | 
       | > _A number of groups were expected to gather in cities around
       | the globe on March 20 as part of a World Wide Rally for Freedom
       | and Democracy, to protest everything from lockdown measures to
       | 5G. "Parler users have commented about their intent to use the
       | rallies to engage in violence. Image 3 on the right is a
       | screenshot from Parler indicating two users discussing the event
       | as an opportunity to engage in a 'fight' and to 'do serious
       | damage,'" says the bulletin._
       | 
       | > _"No intelligence is available to suggest the legitimacy of
       | these threats," it adds._
       | 
       | Oh, that doesn't seem like an asymmetric allocation of resources
       | at all. It's totally not trivially exploitable like the ticket
       | presales in Tulsa or anything.
       | 
       | This "we have to respond to all potential threats, no matter how
       | trivial" doctrine is a ridiculous waste of time and resources
       | even in the best case. In the worst case, it overcommits to an
       | impossible task.
       | 
       | I think it's reasonable to rate their competence level at "the
       | cybers" around the same level as their ability to keep a "covert"
       | operation off of Yahoo News.
        
       | tims33 wrote:
       | This is a truly bizarre story. I agree with others that other
       | government agencies should run this particularly given USPS
       | already well known financial challenges.
        
         | agogdog wrote:
         | This is in no way related to their financial struggles.
         | 
         | The USPS was breaking even regularly (phenomenal considering
         | what they do) until they were forced to save up funding for 75
         | years of pensions within a 10 year span. Not only that, but
         | they have to exclusively rely on the US Treasuries to fund the
         | retiree medial fund, so it's more expensive out of the gate.
         | 
         | So they're doing more for their employees, paying more for it,
         | and are required to do so in a shorter amount of time than just
         | about any private company out there.
         | 
         | I'd be surprised if this covert program cost more than 1% of
         | what the pension fund does.
        
       | nickysielicki wrote:
       | Hah, remember this story?
       | https://apnews.com/article/1e42c1a6fd324f5784c414fcd2adbd17
       | 
       | > The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
       | lost track of most of the guns, including two found at the scene
       | where a U.S. Border Patrol Agent was fatally shot in the Arizona
       | desert. The operation sparked a political backlash against the
       | Obama administration.
       | 
       | > Attkisson left CBS in 2014 and is now the host of "Full Measure
       | with Sharyl Attkisson," a weekly Sunday news program broadcast by
       | the conservative Sinclair Broadcast Group.
       | 
       | > In her lawsuit, Attkisson says that two computer forensics
       | teams identified an unauthorized communications channel opened
       | into her laptop was connected to an IP address belonging to the
       | U.S. Postal Service, "indicating unauthorized surveillance."
       | 
       | > Government lawyers argue that Attkisson's lawsuit does not
       | include any evidence that Holder and Donahoe had direct
       | involvement in spying on her.
       | 
       | > "At best, plaintiffs' complaint suggests a mere possibility
       | that Holder and Donahoe could have participated in developing or
       | enforcing policies concerning electronic surveillance generally;
       | there are no allegations that they conducted or ordered the
       | particular incursions about which plaintiffs complain," Justice
       | Department lawyers argue in a legal brief filed in the 4th
       | Circuit.
       | 
       | The Obama administration used USPS to spy on journalists
       | investigating Fast and Furious. It sounded ridiculous at the time
       | -- "The USPS is spying on journalists, and not the NSA, and not
       | the FBI, and not the CIA? Suuure."
       | 
       | Not so ridiculous anymore.
       | 
       | I'm tired of being angry about this, I've been asking for change
       | for most of my adult life. Our constitution isn't worth anything
       | anymore. The federal government needs to shrink. Asking nicely to
       | not be spied on does not work.
       | 
       | On a more silly note, this whole scenario reminds me of this
       | Seinfeld clip. https://youtu.be/On3cQ0sPvSY?t=46
        
         | starkd wrote:
         | Not too much to ask at all. Every American should be outraged.
        
           | throwaway8581 wrote:
           | Half of Americans, and the vast majority of powerful
           | institutions, are just fine with this because the targets are
           | right-wingers.
        
         | adamrezich wrote:
         | completely forgot about that story--great catch.
        
         | shadowgovt wrote:
         | I'm not very certain that a nation of 350 million people can be
         | kept stable without some amount of internal espionage.
         | 
         | Most human constructs of that size have espionage going on
         | between them (for example, that's more than the population of
         | Germany and Russia combined, and those nations are definitely
         | spying on each other). The fact that they have a thick border
         | drawn on the map between them and the US has thin borders drawn
         | on its map probably implies the US should spy on itself less...
         | But how much less?
         | 
         | Internal espionage has been key at several points in the
         | history of the US for preventing internal power structures from
         | overriding law and order (the Chicago mafia, for example). It
         | has, obviously, also been leveraged against the rights of law-
         | abiding citizens.
        
       | Lammy wrote:
       | Were the 2001 "Amerithrax" letters the justification for this
       | program? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks
        
       | gentleman11 wrote:
       | I read that in the 60s to the 80s, a lot of civil unrest was
       | taking place and there were so many "protest" bombings (whatever
       | that means) that it became a almost normal in some cities
       | (according to articles I found). This might have been a
       | precaution against something like that, considering the current
       | political climate in the USA?
       | 
       | https://time.com/4501670/bombings-of-america-burrough/
       | 
       | Edited to add a reference and correct a detail
        
       | AnimalMuppet wrote:
       | Weird, and scary.
       | 
       | But maybe I can kind of see it. Here's a protest. Let's say it's
       | Proud Boys, and Antifa shows up. And here's a mail carrier out
       | trying to deliver the mail, who drives (or worse, walks) right
       | into the middle of it. The Post Office might have a legitimate
       | reason for wanting to know, so they can keep their on-duty
       | employees from harm.
       | 
       | Is that what's going on? Is that _all_ that 's going on? I don't
       | know.
        
         | shuntress wrote:
         | You should try to re-word your comment so that it reads less
         | like an _" I'm just asking questions"_ conspiracy theory.
        
         | paxys wrote:
         | It's possible for employees of every government agency and
         | every private company to get caught up in the middle of a
         | protest. Should they all start their own surveillance programs?
        
         | Black101 wrote:
         | > Is that what's going on? Is that all that's going on? I don't
         | know.
         | 
         | Doesn't sound like it. Maybe they are trying to shift money to
         | surveillance with all the packages going around because of
         | Covid (I.E: USPS trying to get rid of that "surplus")? Either
         | way, it sounds crazy.
        
       | sitkack wrote:
       | This is a power grab by the USPS to inject themselves into the
       | industrial surveillance complex.
       | 
       | It most likely tries to tie a social media profile to a physical
       | address and provides a pen register of all the mail sent and
       | received by that citizen along with a collection of the
       | "inflammatory opinions".
       | 
       | It is unconstitutional and folks at the USPS and organizations
       | they shared the data with should go to jail.
        
         | ababoaoabaa wrote:
         | Go to jail? Who is going to make them? You have a centralized
         | compartmentalized military and society where one literally
         | controls many. The top has been corrupted by over a hundred
         | years of printing money out of thin air and the use of usury to
         | control everything. Wake up and smell the new world order. It
         | reeks.
        
         | ska wrote:
         | > to inject themselves into the industrial surveillance
         | complex.
         | 
         | Haven't they been de-facto participating for decades?
        
           | pessimizer wrote:
           | They were the earliest, really, searching mail first to find
           | information about birth control being shared and pornography
           | (Comstock Act, 1873), then sedition. I assume that all of the
           | first precedents for mass surveillance and data collection
           | come from the USPS.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comstock_laws
        
       | liminal wrote:
       | Do others also find it strange that the postal service has their
       | own police force?
        
         | pixl97 wrote:
         | No, they in fact have one of the oldest police forces in the
         | US.
         | 
         | Mail fraud and mail theft is a crime as old as mail.
        
       | fmakunbound wrote:
       | Heh and here I was worried about my weed shipments from
       | California. Would iCop be the same organization that enforces
       | that kind of thing?
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | saurik wrote:
       | I feel like the key sentence in this article (edit: which is
       | ironically no longer verbatim in this article, which I see hours
       | later has been heavily expanded) which purports to answer the
       | "but... why the USPS?"--is: > The agency told Yahoo News the
       | Inspection Service collaborates with law-enforcement agencies to
       | identify and assess threats to the Postal Service and its
       | "overall mail processing and transportation network.
        
         | chrisco255 wrote:
         | Now I'm worried they might find out that I've been using this
         | newfangled technology called "email" for the past 25 years and
         | I haven't licked a stamp in over a decade. Some say its only
         | used for money laundering and drug dealing, but I think it's
         | rather convenient and more innovative than what the government
         | can offer.
        
           | NoSorryCannot wrote:
           | If only some other kind of mail had become popular to replace
           | the lost letter volume...
        
           | colonelxc wrote:
           | It truly has been a long time for you, as you don't even need
           | to lick stamps, they are sticky on their own.
        
             | Taniwha wrote:
             | oh, that may explain why I get them stuck on my tongue ...
        
         | DubiousPusher wrote:
         | > which purports to answer the "but... why the USPS?"
         | 
         | Yes, that's the burning question I took away from this article.
        
           | robocat wrote:
           | Perhaps it is a hack to route around federal laws - the USPS
           | could have exceptions (or grandfathered laws) that give it
           | more leeway than other departments?
        
       | Kharvok wrote:
       | Oh so this is why they were so concerned about the post office
       | funding in 2020.
        
       | slt2021 wrote:
       | I work in cyber security ML engineering (open for interviews,
       | hmu) and frequently see federal contractor firms hiring for cyber
       | data/engineer positions for USPS. Always puzzled me.
       | 
       | example:
       | https://jobs.rtx.com/job/-/-/4679/4267185376?codes=INDEED
        
         | sergiomattei wrote:
         | I don't see why this is hard to understand.
         | 
         | Nationwide logistics aren't simple. They have to evolve with
         | the times to modernize/automate their operations and adapt to
         | new, unknown cyber threats.
         | 
         | The mail is quite important.
        
         | CyberDildonics wrote:
         | What is cyber data?
        
         | seppin wrote:
         | The Post Office is a tech company, etc.
        
       | bigth wrote:
       | I'm surprised by the comments here. People seem clueless to real
       | threats the USPS faces and are puzzled why they have inspectors.
       | 
       | Last year or maybe it was 2019 a delivery worker was murdered.
       | Agg robberies of delivery workers has been going up. Breaking
       | into mail boxes and mail theft has been going up. Using mail
       | service to conduct fraud and other criminal transactions is going
       | up. I'm on mobile so it's hard to get the links but just google
       | it, not hard to find.
        
         | gnicholas wrote:
         | I'm not surprised they have inspectors. I'm surprised they
         | think that social media surveillance is within their purview.
         | 
         | I hope their inspectors continue to investigate mail theft,
         | mail fraud, and other things related to the physical delivery
         | of mail. But I don't want them shifting into digital snooping
         | that is totally unrelated to mail.
        
           | pixl97 wrote:
           | You do know mail fraud is commonly initiated by online
           | groups, many times on social media, right?
        
             | gnicholas wrote:
             | > _The work involves having analysts trawl through social
             | media sites to look for what the document describes as
             | "inflammatory" postings and then sharing that information
             | across government agencies.
             | 
             | "Analysts with the United States Postal Inspection Service
             | (USPIS) Internet Covert Operations Program (iCOP) monitored
             | significant activity regarding planned protests occurring
             | internationally and domestically on March 20, 2021," says
             | the March 16 government bulletin_
             | 
             | Sounds like they're focused on issues other than mail
             | fraud.
        
       | f430 wrote:
       | USPS is the new DEA
        
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       (page generated 2021-04-22 23:00 UTC)