[HN Gopher] Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ... ___________________________________________________________________ Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ID.4 Author : finphil Score : 111 points Date : 2021-04-23 17:11 UTC (5 hours ago) (HTM) web link (abc7.com) (TXT) w3m dump (abc7.com) | intrasight wrote: | My opinion is that the industry has gone in the wrong direction | with batteries. Cars should use swappable rechargeable batteries | swapped by robots at the charging station. Faster pit stops and | simpler batteries (no need for water-cooled, etc) and cheaper | cars. And elimination of concern of battery warranty. | TulliusCicero wrote: | Tesla attempted it and gave up. Given how much Musk loves | ambition, there's probably a decent reason for it. | noahmbarr wrote: | Guessing you're a non-EV owner. | | I've owned a Tesla for the last 6 months. Here's my experience: | | * It charges at home, begining the charge at 12:30AM just after | the rates drop. It charges to ~240 miles of range. | | * For the 4 days I've wanted to go futher, charged upto 100% | and that solved my problem 2 of the 4. | | * Other 2 days, I stopped at a charger along my way on a road | trip. there was a place to grab food and take a walk. 25 | minutes later on was back on the road. No biggie. -- I don't | need or want a swapable battery. Rather have a better | engineered car that doesn't have this engineering requirement. | | I'd assume 99% of Tesla owners would agree. | bdamm wrote: | Tesla Model 3 LR owner. Completely agree. There's no need for | all the extra baggage for rapid battery swap. Road trips are | easy already without swapping the battery. And the battery is | swappable... just not rapidly. I've done many long distance | road trips, and some regular road trips where I actually | choose a slower (V1) supercharger because it's close to a | friend's house and we can meet up for lunch or dinner while | I'm passing through their city. The notification on my phone | that the charge session has ended always interrupts our meal | a bit earlier than we would naturally end it, but that just | means no awkward goodbye. It's great. | | Also, I couldn't imagine driving an EV now without liquid | cooled batteries. How would you preheat the battery when you | want it to be nice and warm in preparation for a rapid | charge, or to gain performance on cold mornings? | dreamcompiler wrote: | And the new Teslas have a heat pump to recycle battery heat | into the cabin. There have been some notable failure | reports with this, but so far so good on our Model Y. | dreamcompiler wrote: | Model Y here. Completely agree. | rand49an wrote: | That would massively increase the complexity and cost of | batteries because suddenly they need to withstand being | installed and removed thousands of times. | dreamcompiler wrote: | Many companies have tried this; all have failed. The latest to | try is Ample [0], and we'll see how far they get. As a peer | poster here observed, this idea seems correlated with people | who don't have actual experience with EV ownership. It's a | solution to a non-problem for the average driver [1]. | | Besides, Tesla now spends about $250K to build a supercharger. | A robotically-operated battery-swapping station would probably | cost 10x as much both in initial capital and in maintenance | costs. | | [0] https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ample-ev-startup- | swappabl... | | [1] Although it might be the perfect solution for some drivers. | Uber drivers maybe, who Tesla doesn't allow to use | superchargers and who need to recharge as quickly as possible. | Snoozus wrote: | Voltswagen | xeromal wrote: | hahaha, I'm still waiting for the postmortem on what that was. | mmglr wrote: | The 1st edition is already "sold out". Reserving the AWD Pro S | Gradient, a $49,675 car, is $100. So I suspect the 1st edition | was around that same reservation cost. Too low. Everyone has $100 | laying around. IMO reservations should be 10% msrp so that only | serious buyers can make reservations. | xeromal wrote: | 10% is a bit high. Would take a lot of nads to drop 5k on a car | that may or may not come out in a few years. | | $1000 feels more like the sweet spot. | rsynnott wrote: | This car is already out; they started shipping them last | year. | ajross wrote: | Tesla wants $100 to reserve a car, so I'm sure that's why the | value was picked. If their buyer backs out and the model is | popular, they can always get full price on the car as | configured anyway. | Animats wrote: | _But you 'll have to be patient; it's still two years away._ | | No, they did not launch their first all-electric SUV. They | _announced_ it. There 's a difference. | | [EDIT] Sorry, that's the "ID Buzz." A "people carrier in the | spirit of the old Volkswagen microbus." | brokenintuition wrote: | There's one in my driveway right now, I guarantee you it's not | two years away | jackson1442 wrote: | According to the site[1] they're shipping (shipped?) First | Edition purchases to buyers in Q1 2021 and will be shipping | cars made with reservations starting this summer for the lower | trim and Oct-Nov for the higher trim. | | [1]: https://www.vw.com/pre-order/ | clouddrover wrote: | They're delivering ID.4s across the world now. It's currently | the third best selling EV in Norway for 2021: | | https://elbilstatistikk.no/ | | It may end up being the best selling model in Norway this year. | The Audi e-tron (which is also a Volkswagen SUV) was the best | selling EV in Norway in 2020. | | Other VW SUVs which will be delivered this year are the Skoda | Enyaq (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqdByCvnNQA) and the | Audi Q4 e-tron (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ihZXQIlpRM). | OBFUSCATED wrote: | Is this why volkswagen.com is down? | | There was an unexpected error (type=Internal Server Error, | status=500). Redis command timed out; nested exception is | io.lettuce.core.RedisCommandTimeoutException: Command timed out | after 1 minute(s) | outside1234 wrote: | That doesn't bode well for their in car digital services. | I_am_tiberius wrote: | You mean "Voltswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the | ID.4". | bognition wrote: | Here is a great no frills review of the ID.4 | https://youtu.be/3oC9sUiwyL8 | | The TL;DR is even if its electric its not a serious competitor to | tesla. The UI is terrible as the drive is unable to find a | charger while navigating to their destination. | | Electric car charging stations are going to look completely | different the gas stations as they costs a few thousand dollars | to install rather than a cool million for a gas station. So | rather than having a bunch of high profile gas stations we're | going to end up with somewhat ubiquitous electric charging | stations of varying capacity. | | Enabling drivers to know where to charge their cars is a killer | feature of Telsa and any company that wants to compete will have | to make it as easy if not easier to ensure your car is always | charged and that you are able to charge on long trips. | jeffbee wrote: | id.4 comes with Android Auto and CarPlay compatibility. You'd | be a fool to rely on the OEM tech. | | Tesla loses big in this regard because they don't offer either | _and_ their built-in tech is garbage. | TulliusCicero wrote: | Tesla's vertical integration means navigation + charging | planning, plus the actual charging, is seamless. I doubt | you'd see the same with an iOS or Android app. Every time I | read about charging for other platforms, it sounds terrible. | jeffbee wrote: | With Android Auto I just announce "OK Google, find charging | stations along my route" and it works as you'd expect. It | is in fact completely seamless, and unlike with Tesla I get | state-of-the-art voice recognition and navigation that | works offline. | jseliger wrote: | I just bought (co-bought) a Model Y, and and the Supercharger | network meant that other electric cars were non-starters. | Hyundai and Kia, for example, have Model Y competitors, but | when I was looking at them, both directed would-be buyers to | PlugShare.com for for non-local charging information: I invite | anyone to look at that solution, and then look at the | Supercharger solution. | | I also live in an apartment building, and my building is | supposed to install 240v chargers sometime in the next few | months. Most of the buildings around me already have them, | mostly operated by Chargepoint, but a few by Blink: the change | from "can't own an electric car in an apartment building" to | "most apartment buildings have chargers" is happening and | happening faster than many thought. Once people get used to | charging cars at home, as a primary solution, I doubt they're | going to want to go back to gas stations. | | The best ads for electric cars are the cars themselves. Most of | my local friends have driven mine. | rconti wrote: | We've got a 3, and I strongly agree. It's a lot of money (to | me), and the car needs to be able to do normal-car things | like roadtrips. | | It would be one thing to buy a $10k commute appliance with | limited range, but at $50k, it damn well better be able to be | the "nice car" for roadtrips as well as for commuting. | closeparen wrote: | Are they going to install chargers in the assigned spaces of | all the tenants who want them, or a couple of communal | chargers for tenants to fight over? Having to go back out to | the parking lot every couple of hours to see if the charger | is free, move your car onto it, or move your car off of it, | is right down the middle of "range anxiety." | flurie wrote: | What's interesting is that I did this recently and came to | the opposite conclusion. Did you look at the situation when | restricted to >= 250kW chargers? It's a completely different | story, and that's with only one major CCS provider competing | with Tesla. In the long run, those other chargers won't | matter, and Tesla's expansion has been slow. | theshrike79 wrote: | > Electric car charging stations are going to look completely | different the gas stations as they costs a few thousand dollars | to install rather than a cool million for a gas station. So | rather than having a bunch of high profile gas stations we're | going to end up with somewhat ubiquitous electric charging | stations of varying capacity. | | Yep, this is the big change people aren't yet getting. Every | mom and pop store in a small town can get free advertising just | by installing a $1k charger for their customers and having it | be visible in charging maps. | | I have no interest in stopping to charge at Generic Gas Station | #42 with the accompanying Franchise Fast Food Restaurant next | to it when I'm on vacation or a road trip. I'll rather pick | something interesting. | xeromal wrote: | Hopefully they can update the crappy destination charging | through an OTA update. If not, it's DOA. | sib wrote: | Well... Slow chargers (~20 - 30 miles added per hour of | charging) may cost only a few thousand dollars each, but DC | fast chargers (100 - 350 KW) cost much, much more than that. | | UBS estimated USD250,000 per station in 2017 (unclear how many | actual chargers per station). | | Slow chargers aren't remotely comparable to gas stations. | | (Of course, I understand that, for people who can charge at | home, the picture is very different - we own two EVs and no ICE | cars and are lucky enough to have charging in our garage.) | [deleted] | nikolay wrote: | I'm puzzled why EVs are so expensive when they have simpler | design and parts. Is it because of the battery? Also, isn't EMF | radiation an issue for you? | [deleted] | TulliusCicero wrote: | Yes, the batteries are currently still very expensive. You're | right that engine-wise, they're considerably simpler. | rsynnott wrote: | > Is it because of the battery? | | That's the big contributor, yep. | | > Also, isn't EMF radiation an issue for you? | | For who? I mean, if you happen to be an AM radio it may be an | issue, but I can't see why it would be a problem for humans. | oblio wrote: | Batteries are very expensive. | | EMF radiation from what? | kbos87 wrote: | What I'm really curious to see is whether or not "electric" is | the single killer feature it is often positioned as. | | Semi-autonomous driving and overall UX are two places that Tesla | is just so far ahead. I think other manufacturers will make | progress, but they are likely to be slow. Electric is compelling | but it's only a small part of the overall value prop for a lot of | buyers. | rsynnott wrote: | European BEV sales figures would indicate that Tesla's | 'autopilot' is not a huge factor; of late Tesla has generally | been 3rd or 4th (behind VW and one or both of Hyundai and | Renault) in most markets. | tpmx wrote: | I think what you're actually describing is the largely fan | activist/toy (Yes, Tesla Autopilot is a toy) attitude that's | common to a certain kind of Tesla owners. This is embarassing | and needs to go so that responsible adults can buy EVs too. | arcticfox wrote: | Calling Autopilot a toy seems quite exaggerated to me. | | I use Autopilot for ~80% of the miles I drive and I love it. | I might think the same about Subaru or Cadillac or whatever | if I had those, I'm not sure. But none of them are "toys". | tpmx wrote: | They way they market it is the reason it's a toy. This is | not a novel argument in any way. | | In some circumstances it's a pretty good at L2 self | driving. Until it isn't and it kills you if you don't pay | attention. | ajross wrote: | Yeah. I literally just pulled the trigger and am waiting on | delivery of a Model Y. The other vendors are at least playing | in the same ballpark now. This car, and the Ford Mach-E (I | refuse to call a 4-door crossover a "mustang") are both... very | reasonable and justifiable purchases. Same price range. Similar | (or at least close to) travel range. Similar performance. | | But they don't have a supercharger network. They won't have | anything like Tesla's autopilot over the life of these units. | The software glitz Tesla's app integration brings to the table | isn't there, even if the fit and finish is probably better. | | It's great to see the traditional automakers getting close | finally (almost a _DECADE_ after the Model S shipped!), but... | they aren 't there yet. Unless you're in love with something | very specific about these particular cars, Tesla remains the | clear default choice. | chodeboy wrote: | Is this comment meant to be ironic? The removal of physical | buttons a main cluster for the driver and the lack of a HUD are | all terrible UX decisions. People believe it is all part of the | grand "autonomous driving" meme but the reality is that all | cars that have been purchased today are going to be used up | long before level 4 autonomy is passed through the legislation. | eropple wrote: | n=1 of course, but to me Teslas aren't compelling until they 1) | are a company I want to support, 2) building a vehicle I want, | at 3) a price I want to pay. They fail #1 in a bunch of | entertaining ways, they don't make a vehicle that satisfies #2 | either in features/size _or_ in the absence of misfeatures like | the center console or the quasi-automated car crasher, and they | 'd have to take a significant haircut to satisfy #3. | | Your mileage, of course, may vary, but right now Hyundai's Kona | EV is pretty close to that in terms of | features/size/battery/price, for me. It's the car I'm | considering as a moderate size upgrade over my current car (a | super-compact hatchback). Being electric is a significant plus | to me, enough that I'm considering the upgrade even though I | don't strictly _need_ it. | jeffrallen wrote: | Your reasoning, in my head, lead me to buy a Renault Zoe, and | I love it. | | Electric cars cannot conjuring to be luxury items if we want | to convert the fleet. This is something that Tesla gets | distracted on and misses: the Model 3 should have cost 50% of | what it does (with the compromises to get there). The 3 is | like a slightly less ostentatious S, which is a total market | miss for me | arcticfox wrote: | A total market miss for you, maybe, but it is a total | market hit for the actual market as demonstrated in sales | figures. | ajross wrote: | > 1) are a company I want to support | | Really? I mean... as opposed to which automaker? | | Paraphrasing Matthew Yglesias[1]: Elon Musk is a raging | narcissist asshole. But he built a three-quarter-trillion | dollar company that makes _electric cars and solar panels_. | That 's... objectively pretty good for all of us, right? | | [1] I think. Actually I can't completely remember where I | read this but it definitely sounds like him. | bpodgursky wrote: | He did. Something like "bad tweeter, but good for the | world". | eropple wrote: | Maybe I was unclear. It's not (just) that Elon Musk is a | dirtbag who sics his literally millions of stans on random | people, though that's part of it; I don't think the way | that he, personally, identifies and treats people is a | reasonable way for a person with any measure of power to | act. | | _It 's also_ that I don't want to support an automaker | that makes cars as poorly as Tesla does. Even to this day | Tesla rolls cars out to customers with stuff as simple as | body panels totally hosed. And Tesla then gives buyers the | run-around when they seek redress. That's when they aren't | double-charging folks and making getting _that_ redressed | entirely too difficult, too. | | I didn't say they shouldn't exist. I said that I don't want | to give them money. Tesla's shitty at making cars and | shitty at customer service and I don't have a reason to buy | from them either from the perspective of a purchaser or as | somebody who tries to be at least reasonably ethical with | the allocation of my money. As mentioned, my next car will | likely be a Kona EV, where the body panels don't fall off | and I have some trust in the warranty to actually be | honored if I need something done. | codezero wrote: | I agree with your points in general, the main reason I don't | want a Tesla is that they all look the same to me, across | models, years, features, they just have a similar look and | it's boring. I wish they also offered a wide range of body | modifications to add some flavor and individuality to the | car. | mhh__ wrote: | They really do look like the mid-range car in a video game. | Not _bad_ , but just a bit too American and safe for my | eyes. | | I'm curious what a Cybertruck will actually end up looking | like since they seem to have actually gone for risky with | it. | codezero wrote: | I love the cybertruck just because it's so absurd, but | unfortunately I think the novelty will wear off the first | time you see another cybertruck on the road. | kingsuper20 wrote: | It's worth watching Sandy Munro's youtube channel to see | what the justification for the Cybertruck body shape is. | I changed my mind on them after watching it. | | One question I never see answered is how Teslas will deal | with collision repair expense once the bugs are shaken | out of the insurance and bodyshop system. | kingsuper20 wrote: | >I don't want a Tesla is that they all look the same to me, | | In my eyes, practically all new cars look the same. The | badging is the main way to tell them apart. On the other | hand, I can tell a 1967 from a 1968 Camaro (hint: the | running lights/turn signals in the grill are round vs. a | rounded rectangle on non RS cars). | | But they always did. If you come to it with a fresh eye, | most cars of a given class/size in any era are pretty | similar. | diggernet wrote: | As a non-Tesla fan, I think the S has very nice lines. The | X and 3 are ugly. As you say, they basically look like the | same car, and yet are misproportioned in various ways. My | theory is they spent a lot of designer time carefully | iterating and refining the S, then fired all the designers. | Then for X and 3, simply distorted the S design to wrap | around a different car and called it good. | matmatmatmat wrote: | It's obviously very personal, but for me, electric alone is a | big plus. I find it more enjoyable to drive: No transmission | shifting, really smooth acceleration, quieter, and that | instant-on torque is pretty nice, too. | kingsuper20 wrote: | Another advantage in California (and likely other states) is | that you get to avoid the enormous, rather useless, PITA | called 'emissions inspection'. | gaoshan wrote: | This looks like the first vehicle of this sort to even approach | affordable (with the $7,500 tax credit it will cost less than a | high end Honda CR-V). The fact that it is also well regarded in | the reviews I have seen make this the first electric vehicle I | could consider buying myself. Excited that something as | relatively attainable as this is reaching the market. | golemiprague wrote: | There are many Chinese menufacturers that are cheaper and | already selling a lot of cars both in China and in less picky | countries. I guess it will be a bit like iphone and android, | the rich markets will go for the brand names while the rest of | the world will just use something that is good enough and | working. | | Also, most people don't need to travel long distances like in | the US and many people around the world live in apartment | building with no charging point. So small battery is an | advantage, it covers most people needs, takes less time to | charge and cheaper. | dahfizz wrote: | A base tesla model3 is cheaper than a base ID.4. It does look | like the ID.4 will be cheaper after the tax credits, but not | dramatically so. | gaoshan wrote: | Right but the model 3 is a sedan while the ID.4 is a compact | SUV. Size wise this vehicle is more on par with the Tesla | Model Y, not the 3. | Hamuko wrote: | It's not. | | The ID.4 is 4.6 metres long. the Model 3 is 4.7 metres | long. The Model X is 5.0 metres long. | | The ID.4 is 1.85 metres wide, the Model 3 is 1.85 metres | wide and the Model X is 2.00 metres wide. | | The ID.4 is 1.64 metres tall, the Model 3 is 1.44 metres | and the Model X is 1.68 metres. | | The Model 3 has about 425 litres of trunk space, the ID.4 | has 540 litres of trunk space, and the Model X has like | 1400 litres with five seats up (this was really hard to | source). Seats folded the Model 3 has like 1140 litres, the | ID.4 has like 1575 litres and the Model X has about 2000 | litres. | gaoshan wrote: | I meant the Y, not the X. Brain fart on my part. Sorry | you did all the work to look into the details. | clouddrover wrote: | The ID.4 is similar in size to the Model Y. Diagrams and | examples: | | - https://electrek.co/wp- | content/uploads/sites/3/2020/09/VW-ID... | | - https://i.redd.it/x56klavmjmu61.jpg | | - https://imgur.com/kSmwxah | xeromal wrote: | Probably more of a Model Y than a Model X, | Vespasian wrote: | I guess the "slightly cheaper" part isn't a coincidence ;) | Graffur wrote: | Can someone living in an apartment with no charging point at | their space get an electric car? | dreamcompiler wrote: | Yes, but... I'd only do it if I had a DC rapid charger nearby | (i.e. a supercharger if you buy a Tesla or a CCS if you buy a | VW). And keep in mind you're going to pay more for the | electricity at the DC rapid charger than you would at home-- | probably 2x or 3x the price per kWh. | oblio wrote: | Maybe? Realistically, I wouldn't get it. Wait 3-5 years, let | them build out the charging networks, then buy one. | beckman466 wrote: | I'm waiting for the next scandal where we find out that inside | their black box electric motor there is a little diesel motor | that gets topped up at night by tiny garden gnomes. | codetrotter wrote: | I am never buying a Volkswagen after the Volkswagen Emissions | Scandal in 2015. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal | MattGaiser wrote: | It was everyone's emission scandal. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal | Invictus0 wrote: | They've already paid over 30 billion to resolve the scandal, | and they've pledged to invest 86 billion to develop electric | vehicles. It's pointless to hold old grudges against companies | when the people responsible for the scandal are gone and the | company is now moving in the right direction. | rorykoehler wrote: | Then I guess you're never buying any European car ever again | because it has since come to light that they were all at it. A | bit misplaced given the electric push anyhow surely? | rsynnott wrote: | Not just European; practically everyone who made diesel cars | was at it. | Dopameaner wrote: | I am curious. Do you happen to have a source for it? | rsynnott wrote: | List of the main ones who got in trouble here: https://en | .wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal#Fiat_... | | And it's not like this was the first time: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_device | | It's really quite weird that it has become associated so | closely with Volkswagen. | kingsuper20 wrote: | I naturally assume that a lot of products with computers | that are subject to government testing cheat in some way. | | Betcha that some Energy Star appliances can detect when | they are being run through a test cycle. | RaptorJ wrote: | If you want to hold a long-term personal boycott against | Volkswagon for immoral business practice, I assure you there | are better reasons than the diesel emissions testing scandal. | throwawayboise wrote: | How many "cheating" diesel vehicles did Volkswagen sell in the | USA? | | Not enough to matter, even if they had no emissions controls at | all. | axaxs wrote: | I'm kicking around the idea of an electric car, but the ranges of | these things just utterly disappoint me. With some companies | offering, or planning to offer 500ish mile ranges, it would feel | immediately outdated to me to throw 40k on something with a ~200 | mile range. Is battery tech that different between companies, is | it cost prohibitive? | stefan_ wrote: | It's a huge cost and weight penalty that makes no sense 99% of | the time. | | You seem to be stuck in a 2010 mindset - battery swapping in | particular is a hilarious failure of an idea. Watch out for the | world overtaking you. | axaxs wrote: | As someone who drives about 300 miles each way rather | regularly, for me it -is- a real concern. | | Re: battery swapping, are you referring to the idea of like, | hot swapping batteries on the road, or swapping to an | upgraded battery at some point? I'm only specifically | interested in the latter. | shiftpgdn wrote: | Look at an EV charge map and see what's along the route. I | think the main difference ICE drivers miss is that if you | have a home where you can level 2 charge you're leaving the | house every day fully charged. I've only used a public | charger once just to see if my account worked. | CameronNemo wrote: | 600 mile round trips are not a common use case. You are | going to have to be patient with two full charging stops, | or pay a premium. | kingsuper20 wrote: | I agree. | | Honestly, I think if I were to drive a seriously long | distance, I'd rent a car. Not only does it save wear 'n | tear, but it's hard to find something that's more of a | pain than a mechanical breakdown a long way from home | with something you own. | sparrc wrote: | Probably makes sense for you to wait then, I think most people | are happy with 200-250 miles (I certainly would be) | datavirtue wrote: | 250 sounds doable but not 200. | MrRadar wrote: | How often do you drive that far? The farthest I drive in one go | is 350 miles and I only make that trip once every other year | because it's exhausting. (If I could fly there I probably | would.) A vehicle with a 100 mile range would cover pretty much | all the other driving I do regularly. | closeparen wrote: | If I drive somewhere 2 hours away for the weekend, drive | around town while I'm there, and then drive home, that's | easily 350 miles between home-charging opportunities. | | With less range than that, EV charging becomes a constraint | on which lodging I can choose or else how I'm going to spend | ~hours of my vacation. | dhdhhdd wrote: | Funny. I would not fly for a trip of 350 miles. Being at the | airport early, going through security, checking in luggage, | all of those are unpredictable. Most of the time i leave home | 3 hours before scheduled flight, it can take 1 hour to get to | the airport (depending on traffic, usually 20 minutes), and | then all of the above. 3 hours can get me almost 200 miles | away, and then I'm left with 150 miles of driving. | skeeter2020 wrote: | plus adding in (I think) the magic number is 400 miles when | flying becomes safer than driving. | weehoo wrote: | NorCal to SoCal using regional airports (avoid sfo lax etc) | can be less than 2 hours door to door. Online check in + no | checked bag means you can show up at small airports 30 | minutes before takeoff. 50 minutes in the air, 10 minutes | to deplane and leave the airport, and less than 15 minutes | driving on either end and you have 2 hours door to door | (and a lot more leg stretching than driving the 5). | jackson1442 wrote: | I'm curious... are you in the US? 350 miles is definitely | within the realm of reason here-- a couple friends and I made | an impulsive 250-something mile trip a couple weeks ago, and | my family took a road trip to Florida over the past summer | (normally we'd fly, but COVID)-- that trip was actually in an | electric car and ended up being about 4 hours longer than it | would be in a gas car. | | Depending on where you are, 350 miles might not even get you | out of Texas! | hodgesrm wrote: | Actually not even half way, depending on origin and | direction of travel. IIRC highway I-10 starts around | milepost 810 on the Texas/Louisiana border. It's a big | state. | | Off-topic but Texan inhabitants I know used to measure the | length of the drives in number of beers consumed en route. | Austin to Waco was a comparatively modest 5 beer trip, for | example. | selimthegrim wrote: | 880 not 810. And surely given TX open container laws | applying to a six pack even then they'd shotgun the sixth | hodgesrm wrote: | Thank you. I saw it only once, from the front seat of an | 18-wheeler in 1979 while hitchhiking to Austin. It was | impressive. | CameronNemo wrote: | I struggle to see how an electric car added four hours to a | 250 mile trip. Unless you are counting both ways maybe? | Even then, a 250 mile range EV would need one or two | charging stops. Fast charging could just be 2-3 hours for | both stops. At most. | sumtechguy wrote: | I think they meant it added 4 hours to the total one way | trip. "a trip to florida". Electric is pretty good in | many cases. But long road trips is not one of them. A | full recharge is on the order of an 30-60 mins. You can | refuel an ICE car in 5-10 mins and get the same range. 4 | stops in a long trip is not unheard of. It would put them | in the middle of the united states somewhere going to | florida. | | For local travel electric is decent and you can work | around the 1 remaining issue for electric with some | planning. For long road trip the refuel is the | bottleneck. I think when electric cars can recharge a | 300-400 range in 5-10 mins you will see people switch | very quickly. | jackson1442 wrote: | That was the trip to Florida! It came out to about 1,250 | miles and was actually rather enjoyable in the Kia Niro | EV. We used the Electrify America charger network the | whole way there and back so each stop was 20-40 minutes, | perfect to stretch your legs, use a nearby restroom, and | grab a bite to eat. Admittedly it got to a bit of a lull | at night since it was a 20-something hour trip. | | I think it would have been better to have a little bit | more range so the stops are spaced farther apart, but | charging was cheap and rather fast. The worst part was | dealing with some of those chargers; there's usually at | least one charger offline at EA stations and some charge | really slow (which sucks when you pay by the minute) so | there's a bit of trial-and-error. | | I honestly kinda liked these forced breaks... usually | when we take a long road trip I feel stiff as a board | when we arrive, but I felt fine when we got there. | dm319 wrote: | It's really the infrastructure rather than the range that needs | to change (for most people). If high speed charging became | ubiquitous, then you would only be stopping for 20 min every 2 | hours with current technology. Driving any more than that | without a rest in my country can result in serious | consequences. | | Add to that a fully charged vehicle every morning without | having to make a visit to a petrol/gas station at any point in | the week, and you can start to see how it can become more | convenient. | | All of this depends on where you live and what you use your car | for of course. | jackson1442 wrote: | > Driving any more than that without a rest in my country can | result in serious consequences. | | Fascinating! We drive hours upon hours on the regular in | Texas, everything is so spread apart. I take weekend trips to | see my family every once in a while and it comes out to 3-4 | hours and I do that without really hesitating. One of my | friends recently mentioned that one of their parents took a | job that's 120 miles away from their house(!!) which, while | it's definitely not "normal," certainly happens. | | If you don't mind my asking, whereabouts are you from? | 01100011 wrote: | I'll take a range of 80 miles. Enough for a couple round-trips | to work with some reserve capacity. I'd pay $20k for a tiny car | that provides me with that and I'd keep my gas vehicle for road | trips. In order to replace my gas vehicle, I'm going to need | 500 miles. That's enough to cover my trip to see family along | with a little overhead to handle degredation over time and | running the AC in summer. I don't mind stopping to quick charge | for 10 minutes once during the trip, but beyond that I'll stick | with gas. | cbhl wrote: | For an EV, maybe consider leasing. | | For a conventional car you'd sell after 5 years or drive it for | ten to reduce TCO, so you'd want to compare that with the | monthly cost for (say) a 36 mo lease. | pilingual wrote: | A used Premier Bolt with DC quick charging is a good compromise | here. | | The car software is well done, and while it isn't updated often | that just means you can expect less bugs than Tesla's | constantly updated software. | | Downsides to the Bolt include OnStar, 3rd party quick chargers | are often broken, and their app is absolute garbage. Other than | that I think ~$15k for 200+ miles is amazing. | CameronNemo wrote: | What I don't think people understand is how quick these | batteries can be charged. It is a plug in, get lunch, go to | the bathroom, maybe stretch a bit, and get back on the road | type of deal. | | How long does somebody really want to be driving/sitting in a | car non-stop? | frosted-flakes wrote: | 10-14 hours per day for a road trip is typical for me, with | a single 5 minute re-fueling stop each day. | LeegleechN wrote: | If your list includes "get lunch" it's not a quick charge. | A 1 hour charge time can be planned around but it is still | quite constraining. | dreamcompiler wrote: | I always stop for lunch on long car trips. Sometimes I | grab a snack at a gas station but I prefer a sit-down | meal as a break from driving. That takes about an hour. | Now in my EV, I still stop for lunch; I just do so where | there's a Supercharger nearby. The only downside is that | a Supercharger fillup only takes about 20 minutes and | Tesla will start billing me if the car is full and taking | up a parking place too long, so sometimes I have to dash | out of the restaurant and move the car in the middle of | lunch. | | The solution I've found for this problem is to grab lunch | first, then go recharge at the Supercharger and sit in | the comfortable climate-controlled car and either have a | post-lunch quicknap or watch Netflix for 20 minutes. | CameronNemo wrote: | Meh. If I am driving several hundred miles in a fraction | of a day, I am going to be patient and grateful. Doing | that on a bike, on horseback, or on foot would be | absolutely grueling and take several days or weeks. | [deleted] | notyourday wrote: | > What I don't think people understand is how quick these | batteries can be charged. It is a plug in, get lunch, go to | the bathroom, maybe stretch a bit, and get back on the road | type of deal. | | I'm guessing you have never been at a busy highway gas | station? It is not uncommon to wait for 10-20 minutes at a | 20 pump station on a turnpike where cars gas up in 3-4 | minutes. Until the charging infrastructure is done to at | least half of the current gas stations level mass adoption | of EV is a pipe dream. | idiotsecant wrote: | Just because you can doesn't mean you _should_. DC high | current charging is pretty rough on the expected lifetime | of that pack. | dreamcompiler wrote: | The damage caused by DC charging is not huge. If you | supercharged your car every day in lieu of home charging | (i.e. because you can't home charge), then the effect is | bigger, but Tesla superchargers (can't speak for the | others) are very careful about how much charge they dump | into the battery at any particular instant given the | battery's current state of charge, temperature, age, etc. | They do this specifically to preserve the health of the | battery. | | https://teslatap.com/articles/supercharger-superguide/ | black_puppydog wrote: | I think if there was a perspective to upgrade to a more modern | battery later on, that would make a huge difference for these | decisions. | | I wonder how much the actual battery contributes to the | production costs. It can't be trivial, right? | Saris wrote: | >I wonder how much the actual battery contributes to the | production costs. It can't be trivial, right? | | I would think it's a good portion, at say $200 per kWh of | battery a 50kWh pack is $10k. | axaxs wrote: | Absolutely. If the battery were easily swappable, either by | me or a low cost service center, AND a promise of bigger | batteries was made, I'd probably bite. But as it sits, it | seems like batteries are very central to the car and rather | cost prohibitive to swap out. | ortusdux wrote: | After swearing up and down that they would never do battery | swaps, Tesla demonstrated a 90 second swap back in 2012. | They held a few events in California to get enough swaps to | meet ZEV benchmarks and get nearly $300mil. When they were | called out they removed any reference to the program and | pretended like it never happened. | | https://web.archive.org/web/20140331102655/http://www.tesla | m... | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.#Controversies | munk-a wrote: | Battery swaps are incredibly costly for the company - | those units generally cost more than 10k - sometimes as | high as 20k. Given that they are the majority of the cost | of the vehicle it's not a great business proposition for | manufacturers to offer to replace a battery for anything | less than the majority of the cost of a new vehicle which | consumers simply won't go for. | freeone3000 wrote: | You get the uncharged battery back, though, which you can | then charge and give to another person. It's like a | propane cylinder swap. | tln wrote: | ...just 500 times more expensive. | | Propane capacity isn't going to go down as the tanks age; | losing 10% when swapping in an older battery could really | suck. | jgalt212 wrote: | IIRC, when Formula E used to have pit stops, the driver | would enter a new car rather than swapping out or charging | batteries. | CameronNemo wrote: | Do you have to buy a "Sport Utility Vehicle"? Sedans like the | Model 3 have a higher range. | SyzygistSix wrote: | I like cargo space and don't like to bottom out on dirt roads | or my driveway (also a dirt road). Although I doubt the ID.4 | has enough ground clearance for me. | | edit: looks like it has 8.2 inches of ground clearance, so | that would be fine. Too bad it's ugly but oh well. Cars don't | have to be pretty. | axaxs wrote: | Unfortunately, I do. I am very tall with bad knees and while | some sedans fit me fine, getting in and out of them is | excruciating. About the smallest thing I've been comfortable | with is a Chevy Equinox, to give you a size comparison. It's | more about the ride height than the size of the vehicle, but | they seem to go hand in hand. | CameronNemo wrote: | That is unfortunate. Driving extended periods in a cramped | car is definitely a pain. Hopefully you are being | compensated appropriately for these arduous trips. | rorykoehler wrote: | I'm not informed but it seems all the high range cars are also | the expensive ones. Mercedes EQS and Tesla Model S for example. | axaxs wrote: | Don't forget the higher end monstrosity of a cybertruck. | | Looks aside, something like that would interest me but I | don't need the extras. I don't need extra motors and 4wd. Why | not just offer the base version with the bigger battery? | grecy wrote: | > _Don 't forget the higher end_ | | Cybertruck will have 250+ miles of range for $39,900, which | is the same as the ID.4 this article is about. | | what about it is "higher end"? | axaxs wrote: | There are three models of cybertruck. The most expensive, | 70k version, has a 500 mi range. That's what I was | referring to as higher end. | valine wrote: | I believe the additional motors actually contribute to the | longer range. The motors can be individually optimized for | different speeds, ie you can have one motor be optimized | for the highway and the other for low speeds. | dreamcompiler wrote: | VW is pretty far behind Tesla in battery technology.[0] Still, | this seems like a good car for a large number of drivers. The | VW charging network is building out rapidly (I've noticed that | VW's chargers are largely in the same locations as Tesla's | superchargers. Wonder why?) | | The Tesla Model Y Long Range is rated at 326 miles and in my | experience that's accurate and completely practical. | | As to your criterion of "500ish" miles, that's unrealistic even | for most ICE cars. Granted gas stations are more common than EV | charging stations but you also cannot recharge your ICE car at | home or at your hotel or at an RV park. | | Owning an EV requires a mindset switch; if you approach the EV | purchase decision from the ICE mindset and all you see is "OMG | the range is too low and what happens if I can't find a | charger?" then you're probably not ready for EV ownership. If, | OTOH you are able to switch to a mindset where you keep your | energy status in the back of your mind (and an EV car helps you | with this a great deal) then you might be ready. | | For me this mindset switch was easy since I've been RV camping | for decades; that's another lifestyle where thinking about such | things as energy, water, and waste status are necessary. It's | not difficult; it's just different. It requires an awareness | that assumptions of infinite sources (of water, energy, etc.) | and infinite sinks (for waste disposal) are incorrect, and now | you must manage them actively. | | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx1O4kvjn0U | varjag wrote: | ID4 has 310 miles on its 77KWh, I dunno what "pretty far | behind" here is supposed to mean. It's not like Tesla uses | some hitherto unknown cell technology... | the_mitsuhiko wrote: | Also makes no sense to me. The advantage of tesla is not | the battery capacity but the more efficient powertrain / | drag coefficient. Teslas need a lot less energy in | comparison. | rsynnott wrote: | "Has not been blessed by St Elon of Car", I assume. | | In reality, while many manufacturers have grandiose claims | of amazing magical batteries Any Day Now (TM) the battery | tech being used in real life cars that you can buy today is | all fairly similar. | admax88q wrote: | > If, OTOH you are able to switch to a mindset where you keep | your energy status in the back of your mind (and an EV car | helps you with this a great deal) then you might be ready. | | Honestly that's a huge turn off for me. I have enough things | on the back of my mind, tracking my "energy status" would | have a significant opportunity cost by displacing more | productive things. | rconti wrote: | I also track my fuel range in the back of my head when | driving my ICE vehicles. | frosted-flakes wrote: | I don't. I drive it until it beeps at me that it's low on | fuel (typically at the 900 km mark, after which I still | have 100 km reserve). Then I fill up at the next service | station I happen to come across and pump $50 of fuel into | the tank in 2-3 minutes. I never seek out a service | station. For this reason, ICE cars effectively have | infinite range. | toomuchtodo wrote: | Understandable, but with governments banning new combustion | vehicle sales, the electric transition and need to shift | how vehicles are used will occur eventually. I don't think | EVs will reach the exact UX of combustion vehicles, nor do | they have to (most charging can occur at home at night, | people rarely road trip and need to charge from 0 to 100 | SOC in 5 minutes), but people will have to be accepting | that the experience might be different than they're use to. | | Something to keep in mind is that electricity is ubiquitous | in the first world, and the number and density of EV | chargers will only increase over time. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase- | out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic... | admax88q wrote: | Totally, I definitely intend for my next vehicle to be | electric despite my naysaying. | | I wish that EV vendors would let you "test drive" a | vehicle over the course of a week. It's hard to imagine | what your day to day charging experience would be by just | driving around for an hour. | | For most people, myself included, I bet the charging will | actually be a non issue, probably even more convenient | than gas, but it still feels like a big leap to take. | dreamcompiler wrote: | I used Turo.com to rent a Model S for several days in | SoCal a couple of years ago, and took it for long drives | that required supercharging. I'd probably never have | bought a Tesla otherwise. | | Turo is a more expensive than an ordinary rental car | because not only are Teslas expensive, but with Turo you | really should buy the insurance. (I'd read that personal | insurance won't cover you in a Turo car like it will in a | normal rental. Haven't verified this. Decided not to risk | it.) But even with the expense it was a good way for me | to get an idea of what Tesla ownership was like. | toomuchtodo wrote: | I agree with you entirely. My Model S has spent more time | lent out to friends, family, and others so they can have | the experience you describe. Manufacturers must improve | on this at scale, as individual efforts alone will be | insufficient. | | Definitely a complex inflection point we're at, but I | have hope! | | (disclosure: I _do not_ recommend buying a Tesla | currently due to their QC and support failings). | kingsuper20 wrote: | I'm currently assuming that the inertia is towards EVs. | Apply enough engineering money and economy of scale and | it becomes more and more reasonable. | | Honestly, that's the only type of new car I would buy at | this point. I think we are hitting peak ICE complexity at | this point and would just as soon not be involved with | the mechanical magic that's been introduced to achieve | that last bit of marginal improvement with emissions or | mileage. | datavirtue wrote: | It is extremely common to fill up any ICE and get nearly 500 | miles. It's almost like they sized the tanks to that | standard. | dreamcompiler wrote: | I can get that in my diesel pickup not towing (19 mpg and | 30 gallons) but no car I've ever owned can get 500 miles | from a tank of gas. | frosted-flakes wrote: | A diesel mk4 VW Jetta/Golf easily gets 1000 km (620 | miles) on the highway. Those cars were extremely common | in NA at one point. | theshrike79 wrote: | Of the 8 cars I've owned so far, only one could do over | 800km reliably with one tank (VW Passat Diesel). Most could | handle around 500-600km (375-ish max). | | My current EV can do around 280-300km in one go and it | hasn't limited me once. Back seat needs a pee-break after | 200-250km anyway =) | merb wrote: | why does it says that it launches?! It launched last | december/this years january in europe. heck, they even delivered | some of them already. did it launch that late in usa? I tought it | should launch in february in the usa. | brokenintuition wrote: | I think deliveries from reservations in the US started in | March. I bought one a few weeks ago because some dealers have | gotten a few that weren't reserved, but for the most part it's | still very limited supply in the US. | merb wrote: | > very limited supply in the US | | haha, thats for every car in the world ;-) in germany our | e-up took way over a year to deliver. | Someone1234 wrote: | I feel like the prices on electric vehicles are starting to | become their biggest hurdle (instead of range, availability, or | charging which are solved enough). | | If you're from California or New York, I'm sure $40K starting for | this or a Model Y seems complexly within your means, but there's | a large chunk of the US (by population AND land) where <$20K new | sedans remain popular and "nicer" vehicles are still in the | $20-$30K range (and we're talking about SUVs and other family | sized vehicles rather than small sedans). | | People love to spam $40K US "average" while entirely ignoring | that the average is a highly abusive figure containing $80K+ | trucks and luxury vehicles, as well as a few $15-32K vehicles | dragging that figure down. It doesn't really reflect anything | useful. | | Go look at this map[0]. How many of "the most popular car by | state" are $40K? Zero. But yet an electric is going to replace a | $21K Honda Civic by 2025? Really? | | And I'm not dumping on the manufacturers here: From what I | understand batteries remain the lion's share of an electric | vehicle's total production cost (I've heard as much as | $16K/vehicle). So this isn't profiteering, this is the tech not | yet being ready price-wise for the mass adoption everyone seems | to believe will come soon. Worse still as electric vehicles | become more popular the rare earth metals that seemingly remain | popular within the batteries may increase in cost offsetting our | future reductions. | | To be clear: I want to own an electric vehicle. I'd trade my | current Subaru Outback ($27K) in tomorrow if I could buy a | comparable electric. But those start in the $40K range (and | honestly the cheapest trim is just a hero model, they don't | intend to sell many, and blackmail buyers with missing basic | features accordingly). | | [0] https://insurify.com/insights/most-popular-cars-by- | state-202... | blake1 wrote: | Batteries are quite likely to continue to decrease.[1] Most | industrial processes follow a learning curve inverse to the | cumulative units produced. And it makes sense: each efficiency | improvement has a fixed cost, and only gets made if enough | units get shipped. | | Estimates I have seen are that LI is on a 13% annual decrease, | which means that your $16k pack will be $4.5k by 2030. | | By then, I would bet that the Honda Civic EV is cheaper than | the Honda Civic ICE. In addition to the batter, there are fewer | moving parts and simpler assembly, which means less labor; this | type of manufacturing has barely started to scale up. Not | guaranteed, but my estimates might turn out to be conservative. | | And as for rare earths: as demand increases, it becomes | increasingly profitable to extract marginal deposits. That's | what fracking is, after all. | | [1] https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/13/20/5276/pdf | CuriousSkeptic wrote: | I'm not sure the larger batteries are even necessary. | | With an EV you can start each day fully charged. You just need | enough battery to handle your daily commute and the few | errands. | | What's missing is something to handle those few occasions when | you need to drive that extra distance. It seems kind of silly | to try and cram that extra flexibility into the same vehicle. | Tagbert wrote: | It's partly about convincing new buyers to be comfortable | with them. Buyers are not fully rational and will often | overestimate their need for long range and will overvalue the | anxiety of needing to charge. Short range cars are seen as to | much risk even if the price is lower. | | Once enough people have some experience with EVs and the | market grows enough, there will be more interest and a demand | for cars with a limited range at a cheaper price point. | outworlder wrote: | > I'm not sure the larger batteries are even necessary. | | They are not. What's needed is expansion of the | infrastructure. And that's not even about quick chargers. In | cities you don't need them. What you need is standard level 2 | chargers wherever you may want to go. Work, school, shopping, | movie theaters, whatever. Most vehicles spend most of their | day parked somewhere. They should be charging then. | | Larger batteries are only really going to be needed in very | remote regions. | elihu wrote: | Big batteries would be nice for long trips. I'm working on | an EV conversion right now that ought to get me a hundred | miles of range when I'm done, which is good enough for | about 98% of my regular driving. (Getting more range with a | conversion can be tricky, as it would mean adding a lot of | weight to the vehicle.) Sometimes it's nice to go to the | beach, though... 100 miles would get me to the beach, but | it's not enough get back. Most of the places I'd want to | park my car for a day at the beach don't have chargers. And | quick charging isn't going to be an option. | | I hope eventually we get to point where we start adding | electrification to major highways, so that vehicles don't | even have to stop to charge. Then range will be much less | of an issue. | freeflight wrote: | _> What's missing is something to handle those few occasions | when you need to drive that extra distance. It seems kind of | silly to try and cram that extra flexibility into the same | vehicle._ | | I wouldn't be surprised if rental battery trailers become a | big thing due to that. | | When using the EV for every-day stuff the internal batteries | will be enough. Going on a long trip? Add a battery trailer | for more range and extra cargo/baggage space. | flabbergasted wrote: | I wouldn't be surprised if UHaul started this as a service. | Seems like a perfect fit to me. | grecy wrote: | Average price of new cars purchases in the USA crossed $40k for | the first time in 2020 [1]. So I don't think it's that | outrageous. | | [1] https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/average-new-car- | price-202... | jhgb wrote: | > Worse still as electric vehicles become more popular the rare | earth metals that seemingly remain popular within the batteries | may increase in cost offsetting our future reductions. | | Rare earths are only used in NiMH batteries. Some hybrids have | those, but probably not this vehicle. | cjblomqvist wrote: | The "problem" in the US is the cheap gas, at least compared to | EU. Taxing gas according to the CO2 cost would make it | drastically different in TCO. | akomtu wrote: | Half of the US population lives paycheck to paycheck and they | need cars. I'm not sure their minimum wage can afford them | carbon taxes. | IdiocyInAction wrote: | The US is far richer than Europe, with an average GDP per | capita of over 10000$ higher than most western European | countries. Alabama is about as rich as Germany, for | instance. So if Europe can do it, then the US could easily | do it. | bananabreakfast wrote: | Not sure that matters when their house is burning down in | the much more common forest fires or flooding due to more | extreme storms. | DoreenMichele wrote: | The optimal solution for that is better city and regional | planning so waitresses and the like can find low cost | housing near work and for it to be generally viable to make | life work without a car. | wayanon wrote: | It's weird because I associate car ownership with wealth! | I'm in my 40s in London in the UK earning an ok salary and | neither me nor many of many friends have a car. | philk10 wrote: | London has the Tube and buses and bike lanes - try living | in the US without a car... ( ex-pat Brit now in the US) | theshrike79 wrote: | In the US people may be homeless, but they'll still have | a car. It's THAT essential to living... | holtalanm wrote: | where I live, having reliable transportation (i.e. owning | a car) is pretty much a job requirement wherever you | work. | | a lot of people don't exactly understand just how | _sprawling_ the US is. | throwaway1777 wrote: | Outside of the big cities in England almost everyone has | a car too. Most of the US is like that. | 5etho wrote: | yet in rular Poland, only rich people (or disabled, | elderly, wihout driver license, who have no other choice) | can live comfortably without car | akomtu wrote: | I don't know much about London, but in the US the | arrangement is that expensive cities provide work and | hoards of minimum wage workers live in exurbs 1-2 hours | away from those cities. They have to wake up at 6 am, | spend an hour or more in atrocious traffic on a highway | with other minimum wage workers, then do the same in the | reverse at the end of the day. On a bus it would take 2x | longer. They don't have a choice. Now if you force them | to swap their rusty gas cars for ev ones (beware, 3k usd | for them is a massive expense) and force them to spend 1 | hour a day recharging those ev cars, the US economy would | stall as the wealthy hipsters in the cities won't do the | service jobs. | theshrike79 wrote: | Just one point of contention here: | | You don't "spend" time recharging an EV unless your one- | way trip is longer than the maximum range. | | You get where you're going, plug in and come back to more | power than you had before you left. | dojomouse wrote: | Do what Canada does; add a carbon tax and distribute the | proceeds. This is generally a progressive tax scheme so low | income people end up with MORE money. | nawitus wrote: | Poorer countries in Europe tax fuel more. If you raise fuel | tax, people will find ways to buy less fuel. Generally this | means more efficient (often smaller) cars, and perhaps | prioritizing living more near to jobs etc. | | The main problem is that fuel tax should be increased | slowly so people can change their consumption accordingly. | UnpossibleJim wrote: | The difference is, even the poorer countries in Europe | have a better bus and train system than the majority of | America. Now, granted, America is much larger so I hate | these comparisons. Many European countries are the size | of an American state, but compare any US state and the | bus and train system will almost certainly pale in | comparison. | | I'm all for a fuel tax, but I'm also a huge proponent for | a decent alternative to the single car transport system | that America is so very reliant upon. People talk about | biking, but being able to bike to a decent and available | transit station would be a dream come true to a huge | swath of the American population. | | /end rant | alkonaut wrote: | So change fuel/carbon taxes not just slow enough for | people to adapt but for infrastructure to adapt. | akomtu wrote: | That's like reducing the oxygen level for lab rats to see | how they would adapt. These people have 500 bucks in | savings and no health insurance. | kajecounterhack wrote: | New prices are quite prohibitive but the state of things | actually isn't the worst for used EVs if you can stomach low | range. My family does a two-car approach: | | 1. Hybrid SUV for actually getting places and moving things | | 2. ~$4k a used 2013 Smart car. ~45 mile range is good enough | for short commute, grocery runs, etc. Charge at home or at work | (we have the uncommon situation of no charging at home since we | live in a condo complex, and free charging at work). | | $4k is like the price of a nice electric bike. We didn't do any | maintenance to the car for 3 years (we probably should replace | the brake pads). It's working just fine and is an incredible | workhorse for the price. | cblconfederate wrote: | This is probably going to be the most common combination. EVs | really shouldn't be cars, they can have so many form factors | to fit every lifestyle. For long travel or nature, EVs are | overkill | usaphp wrote: | $4k for a 2013 smart? You got some amazing deal, they usually | sell for twice that amount. Hard to find any decent one for | less than $7-8k | [deleted] | cptskippy wrote: | For $7-8K you can get a Nissan Leaf in excellent condition | with a 75-100mi range. | listic wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_electric_drive ? | brigade wrote: | That link must include new registrations for used cars, and | exclude trucks. After all, the Focus was discontinued in 2019. | | All the manufacturers report new US car sales, and except for | the RAV4, in 2019 the cars on the list were outsold _within | their their own brand_ by cars not on the list. | | For instance, the Nissan sold 209k Altimas in 2019 to 350k | Rogues, or Honda sold 267k Accords and 325k Civics to 384k CR- | Vs, or Chevy sold 132k Malibus and 45k Impalas to 575k | Silverados, or Ford sold a mere 12k Focuses to 898k F-series | (don't see a further breakdown...) | tzs wrote: | I'd definitely like my next car to be electric, and to be an | SUV, and I don't want it to be cost much more than a fairly | basic configured Honda CR-V. 2021 CR-Vs start at about $26k. | | My current car is a 2006 CR-V with about 80k miles on it. It's | in good shape and I drive less than 1200 miles/year so should | be able to stick with it it for a long time. | | My plan is to keep driving my CR-V until: | | (1) an electric SUV comparable in price and features to the | then current basic CR-V becomes available and switch to that, | or | | (2) rules change to prevent future sales of new ICE cars, in | which case I'll decide if I'm OK with an electric non-SUV. If I | am, I'll switch. If not, I'll buy a new ICE CR-V (or Hybrid | CR-V if that is still only about 20% more expensive than the | base ICE model like it is now), which should be able to last me | for the rest of my life, or | | (3) the CR-V actually needs to be replaced, in which case I'll | do the same as in #2. | rsynnott wrote: | At 1200 miles a year, you should possibly question whether | you need a car at all, tbh. Renting when you need one might | work out cheaper. | Elora wrote: | 1200 miles/year is an atypical use case for a vehicle in the | US and your options can be anything, including many older | cars, and also possibly human-powered transport and/or | electric-powered scooters/bikes/skateboards. We have a '12 | CR-V w/ 120k miles which right now is doing standby vehicle | duty, our Tesla Model 3 takes all the miles (15-20k/year). | rsynnott wrote: | > but there's a large chunk of the US (by population AND land) | where <$20K new sedans remain popular and "nicer" vehicles are | still in the $20-$30K range | | A Dacia Spring seems to be generally in the 10-15k EUR range | after incentives, in most countries. A Renault Zoe is about | 20-25k. | | The US does seem underserved in terms of low-end electric cars, | tho. | gaoshan wrote: | The Volkswagon ID.4 will be, after the $7,500 credit, in the | low 30's. Still not cheap but much better than any other | similarly spec'ed vehicle. | brianwawok wrote: | And consider it saving 10k in gas over 5-6 years, it's pretty | close to Honda Civic price parity. Maybe not 100% there, but | getting close! | aaronbrethorst wrote: | The best-selling[1] vehicle in America, the Ford F-150, had an | average sale price of $47,174 in 2018[2]. I'm sure it's only | gone up since. | | Also, the latest version of the map you shared shows the F-150 | being the most popular vehicle in 18 states, none of which are | California or New York: https://insurify.com/insights/most- | popular-cars-in-america-2... | | --- | | [1] https://www.autobytel.com/ford/f-150/car-buying- | guides/why-t... | | [2] https://www.autoweek.com/news/trucks/a32945300/ford- | averages... | s0rce wrote: | Could most of those be base model work trucks with the | average price heavily skewed by the luxury pickup market. | aaronbrethorst wrote: | According to AutoWeek, who I expect knows of what it | speaks, | | "The most popular model [of the Ford F-150] is the | SuperCrew XLT with the 302A package...That pickup, upgraded | to 4X4 and the 6.5 foot bed, comes out to $50,020." | | https://www.autoweek.com/news/trucks/a33584476/this-is- | how-y... | foepys wrote: | This shouldn't surprise anybody. Those are used for work like | farms and are tax deductible. | abfan1127 wrote: | I'd bet a ton that most F150s never see dirt. I'd also bet | that most F150s see >5 year car loans. | acomjean wrote: | F150 was the minimum truck when I worked in landfill | construction in the Northeast and NY. They're decent on | the site dirt roads. But they ride hard and I found the | handling on the road pretty bad. | | They're not popular here. Except for those that need | them. (Maybe RWD and light tail and snow.. ). SUVs are it | here. | | I was surprised how much of the rest of the rural US uses | trucks as a day to day vehicle. | numo16 wrote: | I would side with you on this bet. Lots of brodozer and | parking lot princess F-150s up here in Michigan suburbs. | abfan1127 wrote: | tons of pavement princesses here in AZ. | jackson1442 wrote: | Anyone who's driven on a highway in Texas knows this is | likely untrue, at least for most F150 owners. I see a | shocking number of pristine, washed and waxed F150s every | single day when I'm driving. Those and Ram 1500s dominate | the roads here. | | I don't even live in a rural area. I live in DFW. | hourislate wrote: | I live in DFW also and you are correct. I'd take a guess | that 80% of F150 owners live in a quiet suburban | neighborhood and have never used the truck bed. What | really is insane is the folks like a neighbor down the | street who has an F250 Diesel Monster truck that has | never seen any off road action except the time he drove | on his grass backing out of the driveway. Same with all | the Jeeps with oversized tires and 12k in tricked out off | road gear, driven by soccer moms. I suppose it's some | kind of status symbol like all the old farts buying | Harley's and pretending they are some kind of | bikers...shame they destroyed the brand. | jacquesm wrote: | > like all the old farts buying Harley's and pretending | they are some kind of bikers...shame they destroyed the | brand | | Actually, they kept the brand alive by buying the | product. | | Without those people they'd have died long ago. | aaronbrethorst wrote: | Sounds kind of like Leica to me: orthodontists running | around Africa or Asia pretending to be Steve McCurry with | $11,000 'Safari' cameras destroyed the brand for me. | Yeah, sure, the company is still technically alive, but | at what cost? | | (and lest you think I'm joking: | https://www.dpreview.com/news/9864312105/leica-releases- | limi...) | TulliusCicero wrote: | You're kidding yourself if you think most of the buyers for | these actually need a pickup truck. | | I lived in Bama for a couple years and everybody and their | brother had a pickup. | isoprophlex wrote: | Of course the most common price is just as useless as the | mean price when describing this highly skewed distribution. | | Its the median price that the average American is willing to | pat that is the most informative metric here. | dreamcompiler wrote: | > From what I understand batteries remain the lion's share of | an electric vehicle's total production cost (I've heard as much | as $16K/vehicle). | | I've seen this same figure for current EVs. But it's important | to look at the trend. Lithium-ion battery prices have decreased | by 97% since their introduction in 1991. The price decrease | curve is amazing [0]. Teslas were at least $80K in 2015; today | a Tesla with similar range (Model 3) can be had for $40K. That | decrease is largely the result of Tesla and Panasonic improving | battery energy density and battery production economies of | scale. There is every reason to believe this trend will | continue, especially if solid-state batteries can be scaled up. | | As for rare-earth metals, cobalt is the worst one w.r.t. rarity | and human labor. Tesla's next generation of batteries (starting | in late 2021) eliminate cobalt and substitute nickel and | manganese, which are far more plentiful and don't require child | labor. | | Not trying to sanctify Tesla here; I just follow them more | closely than other battery manufacturers. The others are | probably working toward similar goals. | | https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2021/EE/D0EE0... | mullingitover wrote: | > If you're from California or New York, I'm sure $40K starting | for this or a Model Y seems complexly within your means | | Not for regular working class people, far from it. A car that | costs more than your gross annual wages isn't anywhere close to | being within your means. | | Los Angeles median income in 2019: 28,072 USD | | NYC: 32,320 USD | | Nearly half of Los Angeles residents pay more than 50% of their | income on rent[1]. | | In NYC, 42% of renters pay over 30% of their income on rent, | 23% pay more than 50% of their income.[2] | | [1] https://news.usc.edu/179928/los-angeles-rent-burdened- | househ.... | | [2] https://wherewelive.cityofnewyork.us/explore-data/housing- | co.... | elihu wrote: | > Worse still as electric vehicles become more popular the rare | earth metals that seemingly remain popular within the batteries | may increase in cost offsetting our future reductions. | | That's one reason I'm hoping that we start seeing more lithium | iron phosphate (LFP) cells in mid-range cars, as they don't | require nickel or cobalt. (They still require lithium, which is | starting to approach where nickel and cobalt prices per ton | are, but I'd rather deal with one bottleneck resource mostly | mined in Australia versus 3 bottleneck resources, one of which | is primarily sourced from Congo.) | fassssst wrote: | Yea, I had a ID.4 pre-ordered but canceled it after I realized | how absurd the price is. I bought a utility e-bike instead and | that was probably one of the best decisions I've ever made. I | barely use my car anymore and biking is way more fun and | greener than any car. | cjohansson wrote: | Regular bikes have the benefit that they improve your health, | it's not exhaustive once you get a better stamina. E-bikes | are a bad product I think in todays society | acomjean wrote: | I have switched from a normal bike to an ebike. My yearly | mileage went from 1000 to 1800. I still use my old non | powered bike for short trips. | | I'll use the ebike when I'm tired so I end up using it a | lot more. | | You can turn them off the power then your riding around | with 30 extra pounds if you need more workout... | fassssst wrote: | You can control the amount of pedal assist. My heart rate | still hits about what it does for a light jog. I'm losing | weight too, all without really breaking a sweat. | shafyy wrote: | E-bikes are not bad at all. For a lot of people normal | bikes are not an option because they are lazy or don't have | the physical fitness. It's much better if they get e-bikes | instead of cars for everyone involved. | frosted-flakes wrote: | You get just as much exercise with an electric bike--you | just go faster, and changes in grade are effectively | flattened. | trevortheblack wrote: | I'm looking to do a similar thing. What was the e-bike you | ultimately ended up getting? | rednerrus wrote: | I bought the Radwagon and it's been amazing! Pretty much a | second car for my family. | fassssst wrote: | RadRunner Plus with the large basket accessory and their | dog carrier. | lttlrck wrote: | I was thinking about an ID.Buzz until I took my Golf to a | dealer for a 20K service. Then they tried to sell me tires | for 4 x the price of Discount Tire - the tires on the car are | absolutely fine - almost 1/4". Then they decided not to | rotate my tires due to "tire condition" - to spite me? - and | nickel and dimed me on a pair of wipers. | | I don't want to renew my relationship with a dealer. | Especially not with an electric car where I really would be | beholden to them until the independent shops catch up - if | they ever do. | rubicon33 wrote: | I'll never understand this. You presumably are biking on the | street, at best in a bike lane, at worst in the shoulder, and | are placing so much confidence in other people to not hit | you. | | Given how SHIT other people are at driving, I have no desire | whatsoever to be on a bicycle in front of them. | JamilD wrote: | I wonder how we escape this trap. | | Cars are 1-2 ton machines that can kill you as a cyclist or | pedestrian, and humans are awful at operating them. The | solution is therefore apparently to put more of those | machines on the road (for self-protection) instead of | reducing the risk altogether? | shafyy wrote: | It's important that cities build great biking | infrastructure to alleviate this problem. | | At the same time, this is used by a lot of people as an | excuse to not get a bike. In fact, it's not that dangerous | as you make it out to be as is proven by statistics I guess | (didn't look them up) | analog31 wrote: | I'm a cyclist, and use my bike to get around town, though I | also own a car. Of course I can't completely dismiss your | sentiment. | | Possibly my most important safety measure is route choice. | The streets that I ride on have very little car traffic. | This includes separated bike paths, but also quiet | neighborhood streets. Fortunately this is possible in the | town where I live. In decades of riding, I've never | experienced a collision with a car, and my near-misses have | been rare. | anon776 wrote: | This 100%. When I bike to work I take a route that is 2 | miles longer than when I drive. Just to avoid a few left | turns and a few busy roads witch sketchy bike lanes. Now | that I have an e-bike the commute is actually really fun | and I get to work with energy. | [deleted] | Koshkin wrote: | Yeah, California is one of the very few places on Earth where | you can do that. | mikestew wrote: | Do what? Use a bicycle for tasks many use a car for? If my | guess is correct, I have to ask why you think California is | unique in that respect given the absolutely huge set of | data to the contrary? I mean, you _have_ heard of the | Netherlands, right? | | Of course, if my guess is wrong, ignore me. And be more | clear next time. :-) | Armisael16 wrote: | Literally every other person responding figured out that | they were talking about weather, so I don't think they | had issues with clarity. | Tepix wrote: | and many places in Europe, Asia, ... | grecy wrote: | I lived in the Yukon, Canada for 4 years, and rode my bike | 365 days a year. | | Yes, even in -40 and beyond temperatures I rode. In fact, | Whitehorse has the highest rate of bike ridership in | Canada! | TulliusCicero wrote: | This is a bad statement. California isn't even bike | friendly. The Netherlands or Denmark, or hell, Germany are | all VASTLY more bike friendly than California. | RamRodification wrote: | I think you are being a bit overly negative but you do have | a point. Where I live (northern Europe) I could never get | by with any kind of "open" vehicle (i need a roof and | heating) and snow tyres. | Hamuko wrote: | You can get snow tyres fitted on a bicycle (I had some as | a youth) but bicycles are still quite horrible in the | winter. | | I remember biking home from school during the winter when | it was snowing heavily. The sidewalks were completely | snowed in with heavy snow so the bike just really went | where it wanted to go and very slowly. I eventually | decided to move over to the road but I was soon tailgated | by a bus. Since the bus was honking at me, I had to pull | over to the next bus stop to get him out of my ass. I | think it was about at that moment that I decided to ditch | winter biking once I could own a car. | semi-extrinsic wrote: | Modern snow tires like Schwalbe's Ice Spiker Pro are a | far cry from what existed in the olden days. Nowadays | it's mainly a matter of having the quads (or electric | motor) to drive them. Even with kids in the bicycle | trailer, biking as primary transport is straight-forward | on 95% of the days in winter. | benfrancom wrote: | Fat tire bikes work great in the snow. | petre wrote: | Yes bikes are nice and fun until you have a familiy that | aren't hippies. Also hippies prefer warmer climates and | home schooling. I wonder why. We've got quite a few | bikes. Never use them during winter. Winter means snow | and sub zero temperatures. I'd rather nordic walk | instead. Not in the city breathing fumes, of course. I | would ride my bike most of the time once cars or vehicles | that spew fumes and turn you into roadkill are taken off | the roads either by legislation, environmentalist | militias or apocalypse. | canadianfella wrote: | Abusive? | CameronNemo wrote: | Isn't this short term thinking? That is the upfront cost. What | about the total lifetime cost of the vehicle? | imtringued wrote: | TCO/month has been 200EUR for me for a cheap ICE. This | includes car purchase, yearly servicing, random repairs and | gasoline. There is no way for me to spend less money without | buying used. | | The Dacia Spring would cost me 200EUR TCO/month. A Kia Soul | EV with 60kWH could cost me 250EUR TCO/month for a slightly | bigger car and more range+max speed. I wouldn't save money, | but I also wouldn't break the bank. | | Right now it's a wash. I haven't calculated CO2 tax increases | into the TCO though. Give it another 5 years and you would | have to be stupid to buy ICEs. | Someone1234 wrote: | Gas is down to $3 and electric $12/kWh, with the state now | charging electric vehicles higher registration fees yearly to | offset the gas tax savings. There's likely small savings | every year, but we're talking almost $20K price difference, | maybe $12K with federal (and no state) rebate, you aren't | going to be breaking even. | | Plus fun fact: My insurance would go up a lot with a Model 3 | from my current vehicle, 25% more a month. Why? I have no | idea, but I'm guessing higher write-off or repair costs. | [deleted] | Hamuko wrote: | The Model S was at least notorious for long and expensive | repairs if you got into a crash. Not sure if that's the | case for the Model 3 but Model S insurance rates are most | probably high because of that. | the_duke wrote: | Still the case for Model 3/Y. | | Repairs can take months due to lack of spare parts. | elihu wrote: | I think you mean 12 cents a kWh? (So, a 60kWh battery can | store $7.20 of electricity. Charging isn't perfectly | efficient, so more like $8 to fully charge.) | | Let's say you can go 200 miles with that $8 of energy, | that's 4 cents a mile. | | Let's say a gas car is 30 miles per gallon of $3 gas, or 10 | cents a mile. Over 200,000 miles, that's $20,000 for fuel, | versus $8,000 of electricity in the EV. Seems like the | total cost of ownership just about breaks even with federal | rebates, and ignoring maintenance costs (generally expected | to be higher with the gas vehicle) and ignoring that paying | the cost up-front for an EV removes the potential for that | money to accrue interest (which favors the gas vehicle). | | I'm hoping the EV costs continue to fall until we get to | close to parity in terms of vehicle purchase price. This | can happen either by battery prices falling, or for people | to adjust their expectations and accept shorter range, or | for the need for large batteries to become obsolete due to | electrified roads that let you charge while the vehicle is | still moving. | theshrike79 wrote: | Am I understanding this right? | | You're saying that gas is $3/gallon and electricity is | $12/kWh? | | Over here gas is around $7,50-$8 per gallon and electricity | is around $0.05/kWh. A 100km drive in an EV costs around | 2EUR, while in a petrol powered car the cost is 8.5EUR for | a low consumption car. | | No wonder Americans drive huge cars with no regard to | consumption :D | holoduke wrote: | Which country do you live? Here in the Netherlands we pay | roughly 20 dollar cents per kWh and 10 dollars per gallon | sib wrote: | I am 100% certain that ($12/kWh) is a typo. | | Even in CA, with some of the most expensive electricity, | it's about $0.20 - $0.25 / kWh... | dreamcompiler wrote: | Electricity costs an average of $0.12/kWh in the US, not | $12. It varies between about $0.083/kWh in Washington state | to as much as $0.40/kWh in parts of Hawaii. | glbrew wrote: | If anything the lifetime cost of electric deters me. Usually | they come with 10 year warranties for the power side of the | car, but I kept my last car for 20 years. If I buy electric I | assume I essentially need to buy a new car or pay for an | expensive overhaul after a decade. So the math is more along | the lines of 20k for a gas car that will last for 20 years, | or 40k for an electric car that will probably last 10 years. | Yes, you save some on energy but probably won't offset total | cost difference. | kingsuper20 wrote: | For some reason you're downvoted. | | I think that's a reasonable fear, dunno what the failure | rate on large components will look like, especially | batteries. One problem is that electric cars are bound to | advance more quickly than something as mature as ICE-based | ones. It would be easy to end up with something that's | obsolete or poorly supported from a parts standpoint. | SketchySeaBeast wrote: | Don't forget to factor in fuel cost and maintenance. | kingsuper20 wrote: | and insurance. and government tithes (additional highway | taxes are probably on the way) | mikestew wrote: | Oh, oh, I can answer this, given ownership of a ten year old | Leaf ($35K) and a fifteen year old Scion xB/rebadged Toyota | Echo ($20K): the $20K car is still going to win in TCO. | Because the Leaf already starts out $15K in the hole. That's | a _lot_ of oil and coolant changes. That 's a _lot_ of brake | pads. And those are pretty much the three things an ICE needs | done versus BEV. After 100K miles, the Scion needed a $1500 | clutch job. After 50K miles, the Leaf needs a new $5K battery | pack (it 'll last a few more years, but it's coming). | | The Leaf still needs tires. It still needed the 12V accessory | battery changed out. It still needs a cabin air filter | changed once in a while. The Leaf has been reliable, nearly | maintenance-free, and pretty appliance-like. But the Scion is | a close second. We'll probably never buy an ICE again, that's | how much we've like the Leaf and BEV in general. But "out of | touch" doesn't even begin to describe someone arguing that | those willing to spend $20K should spent twice as much | because "TCO". | bananabreakfast wrote: | You left out the very important and difference making cost | of gasoline. Which over 10 years of driving would more than | make up the difference in cost. | geoelectric wrote: | That may depend on where you live, and what your | electricity consumption already is. In CA, for example, | with our tiered billing and PG&E's award-winning business | practices, it's pretty easy for an electric car to rack | up quite an energy bill. If you were already using | electricity up to the top of your tier, the add for the | car will be at $$$ rate. | | So they also have non-tiered plans for electric car | owners but those are time of use. If you use them at peak | for whatever reason, $$$ again. It's a little tricky. | | It won't be as expensive as liquid fuel, to be sure, but | the savings over time might not be as high as you'd | expect. Offsetting with solar seems to be the popular | option around San Jose, where homeowners tend to be | particularly affluent. | mikestew wrote: | You're paying for that difference upfront, however. Is | gasoline in the U. S. likely to go up faster than the, | say, S&P 500, where one could put that extra $15K until | it's time to buy more gasoline? Historical data say "no". | Gas was $3-$4/gallon when I moved to Seattle 20 years | ago, and it continues to stay between $3-$4. | | There's lots to like about electric cars (again, so much | so that I'll never buy another ICE), but IMO any cost | savings is going to be pretty far down the list. After | ten years of EV ownership, I'd almost pay the difference | in price so I never, ever have to go out of my way to | visit a gas station again. Man, what a hassle that is | once out of the habit. But EVs are just generally better | vehicles that make an ICE seem like the rattling, | primitive contraption that it is. That doesn't sell cars | because one needs to _own_ an EV to realize that. So to | get folks to the ownership, we tell them it 'll save | money on gas. Which is technically true, but not the | reason to buy EVs. | foepys wrote: | People buying cars for $20,000 are generally not people who | can invest twice upfront for lower maintenance costs over the | next ten years. Being poor (relatively speaking) is | expensive, especially when you are financing. | dahfizz wrote: | Isn't this situation a bit different? | | You're financing your car anyway, so its "free" to finance | a car that $75/mo more expensive if you spend $75/mo less | in gas savings. Factor in not having to pay for maintenance | and it really is cheaper month to month. | | This is different from the classic example of having to buy | cheap, low quality boot every month for $10 instead of | buying really nice boots for $200 that would last a decade. | The upfront cost of the nice boots (and the insane interest | rates for credit cards) make the nice boots impossible to | afford. | | EDIT: This is besides the point, but I don't think people | dropping 20k on a car are "poor" in the way we are | discussing anyway. Anyone buying a brand new car obviously | has some money to spend | holoduke wrote: | I an in a fortunate position to earn much more than a | average salary. Yet our family car is a 2005 10k infinity | fx35. Car is reliable and modern enough. A perfect fit for | my family of 4. I considered buying a 80k Tesla model X, | but went for a 15 year old Ferrari f430 (same price). Still | have the practically and a lot of extra fun. I never | understood why people would buy a car younger than 15 years | old. | oblio wrote: | Safety features. | PragmaticPulp wrote: | > I never understood why people would buy a car younger | than 15 years old. | | 15 years typically translates to 180K - 200K miles for | average use cases. | | 15 year old cars are generally not in great shape. | Finding low mileage, well-maintained unicorns is not as | easy as it sounds. | Ekaros wrote: | Also 20k buys lot of maintenance, and gas. I wonder if at | that price difference the maintenance and gas even is | cheaper. Ofc, depends on driven distance, but still. | anticristi wrote: | This. I made a business case for keeping my old car or buying a | similarly-sized electric one. No matter how high the downtime | cost, my old beaten up car wins financially. | | Feels like electric cars are still designed to "signal | greenness" and not actually save the planet. | CalChris wrote: | That's true for any car, regardless whether the new car is an | EV or not. | cptskippy wrote: | > But yet an electric is going to replace a $21K Honda Civic by | 2025? | | What's the average selling price of a Civic? With options the | Civic can sell for over $35k. | sib wrote: | Edmunds.com shows the MSRP range for a 2021 Civic ranges from | $21,050 - $28,100. | skybrian wrote: | Yes, very true, though prices will come down as volume goes up. | We should all hope that these new models are a success and the | prices drop. | | Though, if you're budget-conscious, why buy a new car at all? | Used cars are a better deal. Leave the new cars for people with | more money. | Klwohu wrote: | The range is the issue, the "suburban and rural retards" | probably have more expensive vehicles than NY and San Fran | dwellers. But nobody wants a car that can't run on gas unless | you live on an Interstate corridor, the 101, etc. | ajross wrote: | (Not sure why you introduced that slur with scare quotes | given that no one used it upthread, nor even suggested | anything similar... This sounds a bit much like you're trying | to pick a fight.) | | Almost no one, even in the US, lives legitimately far from an | interstate corridor or other major infrastructure path. | | These EVs can absolutely be made to work in the red state | exurbs. You'll find plenty of Tesla owners in those regions | already. Where EVs tend to hurt most isn't with diffuse exurb | commutes (where a 300 mile range does just fine!), but in | long distance road trips where you have to charge more | frequently and for longer periods than a gas car. And I | assure you us cityfolk take just as many road trips as you | red staters. | Klwohu wrote: | It strange, as you black/red flag city dwellers seem to we | simple country folk to be poorer and less able to achieve | land and vehicle ownership than we banjo-strumming | hillbillies. Perhaps when we see you driving your little | electric bug cars and living in rat shacks in this current | year we get much the same impression that you do from | looking at photos of the dust bowl era, still apparently | the modern city person's vision of how people live outside | their enclaves. | camjohnson26 wrote: | You're projecting. No one is saying that. | kingsuper20 wrote: | I'd say that the more general issue with rural areas is the | increasing complexity of cars and the death of small car | dealerships. This area lost 100% of it's dealerships during | the real estate crash and I'm not sure that an independent | shop can fix a new BMW (or F150). | foepys wrote: | Not only that, there are entire continents where electric | vehicles are simply not feasible. You cannot drive an EV 100km | through mud and forests to get to a town just to charge it. | Those EVs are not only very heavy and will sink in mud, they | turn into bricks when empty. Have fun getting electricity into | the jungle. A gas canister can be brought by anybody and | filling the car up is quick. So most likely you will be hauling | around generators - gas powered of course. | | These are problems I don't see discussed anywhere when car | manufacturers are claiming to go full EV by 2030. | ajross wrote: | To be fair: vehicle density in rural Africa or South America | or wherever you're thinking of is extremely low. To first | approximation all cars are in cities (because to first | approximation all _people_ are in cities), and so to first | approximation all cars can be feasibly replaced with EVs. | | It's true there will always be edge cases best served by some | other technology, but that's true about any device, not just | cars. | Already__Taken wrote: | How many of these places drive 2021 model cars right now? | imtringued wrote: | Probably none, and most of them can't even afford a used | car with AWD. Every time I hear about Americans buying | offroad cars as a status symbol I think of people in | Cameroon getting stuck in the muddiest dirt roads on the | planet with their Golf 3. | agloeregrets wrote: | Yup! Plus in the US the majority of all cars are not parked | in a garage or driveway. How do those charge? | plorkyeran wrote: | I see power cables running out to a car parked in front of | a house fairly regularly. | martyvis wrote: | In inner Sydney suburbs with terrace houses, the 2sigma | distance to your street parked car might be 100 metres. | You can't run an extension cord that far | tommoor wrote: | > in the US the majority of all cars are not parked in a | garage or driveway. | | Source? That seems highly unlikely | bananabreakfast wrote: | Chargers are installed in parking lots everywhere. Just | because you haven't noticed them doesn't mean they aren't | there. | bananabreakfast wrote: | That's probably because car manufacturers are not making | electric cars to traverse the jungle. That is an extremely | niche use case compared to the global car driving population | and a straw-man argument. | kingsuper20 wrote: | It would be interesting to see an EV design that's | appropriate for the Third World. | Tagbert wrote: | Look at some of the Chinese market cars. They are much | closer to what you are thinking of. | Hamuko wrote: | Honda Super Cub with a battery. | ajross wrote: | Actually the market for new sub-$20k vehicles is quite small. | Most people with budget concerns buy used. The median new | passenger vehicle is something like a $40k minivan or pickup. | So these EVs really aren't very far off the mark financially. | robryan wrote: | Are those EVs that are going to become decent sub $20k buys | at say 5 years old even in existence yet? Even if they are | there aren't enough of them being sold new yet. | | I seems to me probably another 5 years to get enough volume | in solid lower end EVs that are bought in quantity and have a | decent lifespan. Then another 5 years for them to filter down | to the used market with decent prices. | | I bought a 2017 Golf last year for around $15k. In Australia | the only thing you can get electric wise at that price point | would be a 2013 or so leaf with 100km range, and even then | there is basically no supply. | toomuchtodo wrote: | Indeed. These EVs will filter down to the used market over | time, satiating demand from those not of means to afford a | new car. | | It's ideal really; those who can buy new eat the | depreciation, while those who can't afford new end up with a | vehicle that will be able to go hundreds of thousands of | miles before end of service life (perhaps with some cosmetic | blemishes, but not much more of concern considering | powertrain longevity). Not everyone needs a new car, many | simply need a reliable car. | Phenomenit wrote: | >and blackmail buyers with missing basic features accordingly | | It's what VW does best! | | Remember that the first car looked like horse wagon and did for | quite a while. The same can be said about the infrastructure as | well. | evo_9 wrote: | Comparable to a Subaru Outback in what way? | | Maybe take a look at a 2-3 year old BMW i3; that's what I | bought for ~$18k US with only 6k miles on it. They're BEV with | a range of _only_ ~130miles which is pretty much all I need for | local commuting; longer trips we rent a gas SUV, or at least | that 's the plan when our 3 month old is older. | rsync wrote: | Is it their electric car or is it _their car, electric_ ? | | I don't want your electric car. | | I don't want your e-initiative i-mobile green-tech tron-car. | | I want one of your _actual cars, just electric_. | | I don't want an ID.4 - I just want a Passat. I don't want the | polestar e-initiative i-concept - I just want a V90 wagon. _I don | 't want a future space truck, I just want a Silverado - but | electric._ | | God. Dammit. | guyzero wrote: | The had the eGolf, which was the Golf, but electric. They were | almost indistinguishable. The eGolf range was 125 miles, the | ID.4 range is 250 miles. That's why they have new specific | electric models. Electrifying existing models is generally | underwhelming. | cameldrv wrote: | Designing an electric car has a lot of different design | tradeoffs than a gas car, so cars that are designed from the | ground up as electric are going to perform better than gas cars | that are electrified. | | The biggest two factors are that the battery is large and | heavy, but is flexible in the shape it assumes. For good | handling, you'd like to have this weight as low on the car as | possible, and close to the center. The almost universally | accepted solution is the skateboard design, where the batteries | sit under the passengers, spread out over a large area. | | The electric motors are also small and you can do away with a | lot of systems like the transmission, exhaust, starter motor, | alternator, gas tank, various pumps, pollution controls, etc. | This means much less need for under hood space. | | Once you take these factors into account, the designs of | various EVs make a lot of sense. | outside1234 wrote: | But Tesla's cars are exactly this - they are largely gas | sedans that look normal and are electric. | | People don't want some dorky looking electric car like | Volkswagen's or BMW's. They want a normal car that's | electric. | geoelectric wrote: | The pseudo-fastback sedan actually wasn't nearly as popular | until around the time the model S came out. Then I started | seeing it in a lot more cars, especially luxury, where the | rear window comes down almost to the edge of the trunk. I'd | always credited the S with kicking off the trend. | internet2000 wrote: | You forget all the handwringing over the fake grill-less | nose when the Model 3 came out. | Tagbert wrote: | Teslas are not "gas sedans". They are purpose built EVs. | They are sedans and are one of the few sedans that are | still selling. Most other manufacturers had seen their | sedan market evaporate to the point that they have dropped | those models entirely. | | Since the current EV market is still very small, | manufacturers target the most popular body style to | maximize their sales. That is currently an SUV/CUV in the | US and in many markets. It is to be hoped that, once the EV | market gets large enough, there will be room for different | body styles such as sedans or smaller hatches. Personally, | I would prefer something closer to the ID.3 but that is not | something I expect to see in the US any time soon. | Animats wrote: | How else would they justify the 2x price premium for all- | electric? | | This is a curse of the classic auto manufacturers. Look at the | pricing discussed for the all-electric Ford F-150. Somewhere | around US$100K. Where the gas car makers have come out with | electric cars in a gas car product line, they've usually had | about twice the base price. | | Electric power is priced as a super-premium trim level. "More | car per car". | | This provides a huge opening for Chinese automakers, who don't | seem to have that hangup. It ought to provide an opening for | Toyota, if they ever get off their hydrogen fixation. | Tagbert wrote: | In what way is the price of the ID.4 2X? It's closest match | in the VW family is the Tiguan with starts around $26K. Yes, | the ID.4 is around $14K more but that is due to the new | technology that is slowly becoming more affordable. The first | Chevy Volt's price was around $40K ten years ago while the | most recent Volt's were around $32K last year. I'm sure that | VW would prefer to be able to bring the price down to be more | competative but in doing so, it would likely be below their | cost to manufacture and that is not a good long term | strategy. | danans wrote: | They are creating a new brand altogether, much as they did with | the Beetle 80+ years ago. This line of vehicles are intended to | _replace_ the Passat, Jetta, etc, not be their electric | alternative. | digikata wrote: | Kia Niro, comes in Hybrid, Plug-in/Hybrid, or EV variants | pkulak wrote: | It looks like a Honda CUV or Toyota Rav-4 to me. Not sure where | your outrage is coming from. | rsync wrote: | No, I'm asking - is this a VW, but electric, or is this an | e-initiative space-car ? Genuinely unsure. | | I would classify the Chevy Bolt (which we own) as the latter | . | Tagbert wrote: | The ID.4 could be considered to be an electric version of | the VW Tiguan. It is similar in internal size and capacity | and it targets the compact CUV customer but with electric | drive train. It does use a newer platform. Even the styling | is quite restrained and conservative compared to other EVs. | oblio wrote: | Well, not typical for HN, a lazy question. But I'll bite. | You could have looked at the video, it's only 2 minutes. | ID.4 is a pretty boring/normal looking car. | | Now, for the e-initiative, it's an e-initiative all right. | A $86 billion over 5 years e-initiative | (https://www.reuters.com/article/volkswagen-strategy- | idUSKBN2...) :-) | | ID.4 is based on an entirely new VW platform (https://en.wi | kipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_MEB_platform) which is | already used for 6 models and it will probably be used by | 60+ in 2 years' time. | | It's practically VW's future. They're betting the farm on | it. | brokenintuition wrote: | I went from a Bolt to now having an ID4. So far it seems to | fall in the VW but electric category (although this is my | first VW, so take that with a grain of salt). Major things | I prefer over the bolt: nicer (in my opinion) interior, | more interior space, travel assist is pretty awesome, | slightly longer range, and higher fast charging rate. The | higher fast charging rate is what's making it more viable | for us to take that instead of my wife's gas car for trips, | since charging stops don't need to be as long. | pkulak wrote: | Well, it's the same platform as all their other cars. So | I'd say it's a VW. | Hamuko wrote: | I do actually want the Polestar 1, since it's drop dead | gorgeous. Unfortunately it's a very limited run hybrid car that | costs as much as my apartment. | | Also weirdly Polestar is also falling into this EV design | pitfall. They release a petrol car and it's gorgeous. Then they | release an EV and it's misproportioned and ugly. | rsync wrote: | Polestar 1 is , indeed, Beautiful. However it is not an | electric car. | frosted-flakes wrote: | It definitely is. It's a plug-in hybrid. | rsynnott wrote: | > I want one of your actual cars, just electric. | | VW did that for a while; the eGolf. The (rather similar- | looking, in fairness) id.3 that replaced it seems to be doing a | lot better. | flurdy wrote: | I see what you mean, but that is not always going to be a good | idea as electric cars is more than a change of motor. | | Much more aerodynamic, lighter, different frames for lower | centre of gravity, different controls, dashboards, etc. (I am | not a car designer). So a car designed from scratch will | complete these much better than a simple conversion. | Klwohu wrote: | Still going to have to check it to make sure it's not producing | smog when the authorities aren't watching. | wayanon wrote: | It's interesting to see the word 'pollution' seems to have been | completely replaced by 'emission'. I guess the car industry won? | kingsuper20 wrote: | 'Mostly peaceful' emission might be the way to go. | legulere wrote: | Zero emission vehicles still pollute with their tires. | barbazoo wrote: | And don't forget: during production | theshrike79 wrote: | I'll take tire pollution over gridlocked non-moving cars | spewing fumes right next to my apartment, thank you. | rorykoehler wrote: | I saw one in the wild last week and I am very happy to see that | they look great and normal. | mhh__ wrote: | On the subject of styling I still find these electric cars | slightly off with the plastic where the grill normally be. It | just seems wrong - especially with a company like Tesla which | has no design heritage to be bound to, one expects better. | | The Taycan doesn't have this issue at the front, and I think | it's a good looking thing. | rorykoehler wrote: | Why would you have a grill when you don't have any need for | it? | mhh__ wrote: | That's my point, though, the front doesn't need to be that | shape any more, do something else (i.e. what Porsche have | done with the Taycan, which just tapers all the way down to | the number plate). | rorykoehler wrote: | Sorry I misunderstood. Of all the recently released cars | the Mercedes EQS is the only one that is obviously doing | what you complain about. | kingsuper20 wrote: | Battery cooling? Cabin ventilation? A/C condenser? Front | brake cooling? | rorykoehler wrote: | The ev car grills are aesthetic only. They are sealed. | kingsuper20 wrote: | I'm simply giving reasons why an EV might have a front | air intake with a grill. | | Given the location of this stuff, I could easily see some | cars using the area-formerly-used-for-the-radiator for | other things. | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xax1HmVPKZY | kingsuper20 wrote: | I keep hoping that someone builds an electric car that looks | like an early 911. | mhh__ wrote: | Most of the porsche range is going electric, including the | Boxster. | | If that doesn't scratch the itch I'm sure people will be | making Singer-esque EVs with a 911 shell. | Hamuko wrote: | Porsches have never really had prominent grilles, not even | when the engine was up in the front, so that helps. The | Panamera has a very slick front-end despite having the engine | in the front. | SyzygistSix wrote: | Interesting. I agree they look normal but to me that means | ugly. | outside1234 wrote: | From the company with rampant electrical reliability problems in | their existing gas cars. Hmmmm. | rconti wrote: | I've been following the id.4 release with moderate interest. I | previously had a 2016 Golf R 6 speed manual, and now have a 2018 | Tesla Model 3. | | IMO, the VW is just too expensive. Now, if you're getting the tax | credit on the VW, and of course can't get it on a Tesla anymore, | that makes the difference. But without the credit, the id4 is | virtually the price of an AWD Model Y. For a vehicle that doesn't | have AWD, has a ton less power, is significantly slower, less | range, and no supercharger access. | | Now, those aren't awful hits against a tax-credit-fueled $10k | savings (or whatever). But I don't think it's close to there yet. | | There are a lot of weird things from the reviews I've seen, too. | Spotty voice recognition, "free" charging requires you to use a | fiddly phone app, the car only has 2 window switches and requires | that you toggle between front and rear with a 3rd button (wtf), | and the Nav system is awful and routes you to chargepoint (ultra | slow) chargers on a roadtrip, vs DC fast chargers. | | So much of this can be changed in software, and maybe VW will | drop the price when the tax credits go away, the same way Tesla | did. | | But, it just seems like far too little car for the money. | wishysgb wrote: | well my sister is looking at it for 29k after incentives that | is a lot less than Model 3 or Y | Hamuko wrote: | When are we getting good looking electric cars? The only good | looking EV thus far is the Honda e but it has issues in pretty | much every other department. | edhelas wrote: | SUV... | theshrike79 wrote: | SUV is the easiest platform for EVs, sadly. | | 1) add layer of batteries 2) add wheels to battery base 3) slap | on some fancy stuff | | Ta-dah! An EV SUV. | | No need to plan where the batteries need to go to keep the car | looking like a car. | | If you want a "budget" EV that looks like a car and not a | building on wheels, your only options are pretty much the | Hyundai Ioniq and Tesla Model 3. The rest are 100k+ premium | cars (Model S, Porsche Taycan etc). | mhh__ wrote: | Hopefully (particularly from the French car companies, as they | have some interesting little designs from the past to draw | from) EVs can provide a kick up the arse for manufacturers to | lead rather than shit out SUV after SUV - particularly given | that they are using new propulsion that can't afford | unnecessary weight and drag. | redisman wrote: | I'd imagine this is mainly for the US market. | closeparen wrote: | I wonder what will happen to the SUV vs. car distribution when | "gas guzzler" isn't a consideration anymore. There's still | parking, of course, but most SUVs I see have the same wheelbase | as their sedan counterparts. They're just tall. | gryzzly wrote: | the time will come when cities will stop allowing using so much | public space for the sake of one person/family's comfort. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-04-23 23:00 UTC)