[HN Gopher] Bob Cassette Rewinder: Hacking Detergent DRM
___________________________________________________________________
Bob Cassette Rewinder: Hacking Detergent DRM
Author : dekuNukem
Score : 959 points
Date : 2021-05-02 10:18 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| HumblyTossed wrote:
| Investors don't want to invest in only HW. They want their MRR.
| This is all just going to get worse. We'll start seeing
| everything coming with built in cellular soon.
| layoutIfNeeded wrote:
| A piece of tinfoil at the right place does wonders!
| sgtnoodle wrote:
| The cell modems I've worked with are able to maintain a
| connection to the network even with a terminating resistor in
| place of an antenna, and that is from the middle of a cattle
| ranch 8 miles from the tower. You basically need to go full
| faraday cage...
| lhoff wrote:
| Luckily thats never gonna happen in Germany. At least not with
| a mandatory connection. The cellular coverage is way to bad for
| that. My parents live in a smaller village. The Dishwasher
| would have to stand on the upper balcony to get a network
| connection.
| 8bitsrule wrote:
| Of course, in order to hack one of these Ter Bebbies, you have to
| buy one. Either way, Deputy Daan gets ya.
|
| "Dosing can be tricky..." So can holding onto your sanity in
| today's consumer world. After generations of TV advertising,
| reason is supposed to be the consolation prize.
| Aardwolf wrote:
| Did you know you can just put detergent in the main compartiment?
| Why do you need such cassettes? Normally diswashers have
| something that dispenses it at a particular point in the cycle
| though. It's a simple mechanism, no complex electronics involved
| in that either.
| Bancakes wrote:
| Author states cassettes dispense measured quantities at
| different times of the washing procedure.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| You don't really want that though, because the water from the
| first cycle is washed away relatively quickly.
|
| For good results, there's two releases of detergent, one for
| the pre wash and one for the main cycle. Detergent pods have
| kind of ruined the general dual compartment dishwashing
| ecosystem, though.
| BillinghamJ wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04
| ajdude wrote:
| I was about to post this. Highly recommend it for anyone
| interested in dishwasher efficiency.
| OJFord wrote:
| Pretty much lost me on the presentation; finally lost me on
| 'these things completely fly in the face of the way most
| dishwashers are designed to work'.
|
| Uh, what? Must be a US thing, whatever the alternative is,
| because that's (those detergent, salt, perfume, whatever
| else tablets in a water-soluble wrapper are) all I've ever
| known. (UK.)
| Daniel_sk wrote:
| I don't even have a pre-wash compartment on my (not
| cheap) EU dishwasher. There is just a place for the
| tablet and then rinse aid (which I never used). And
| always get good results with quality tablets.
| ed25519FUUU wrote:
| I started using rinse aid this past year and I was
| pleasantly surprised how it removed nearly all streaks
| from my glassware. Thankfully the wash cycle only uses a
| minuscule amount of rinse aid, so a large container lasts
| me almost a year.
| lupire wrote:
| That's because your locality has forgotten how
| dishwashers were designed to work.
| iso1210 wrote:
| My family had a dishwasher in the late 80s or early 90s,
| before tablets were common, you put powder in.
|
| (Washing machines were of course the same - you put in
| liquid and powder in the draw at the top, rather than
| throwing in a tablet in with the clothes)
| OJFord wrote:
| Yeah I thought that was probably the case (just predates
| at least my memory) - but surely putting powder/liquid
| directly in vs contained in a water-soluble capsule is..
| the same, not 'flying in the face' of how it works?
|
| (For what it's worth, I still put liquid in the top of my
| washing machine! Tablets only seemed to appear for
| washing machines ~10y ago, at least that I was aware of,
| and still seem way more expensive /wash.)
| CRConrad wrote:
| What, washing machines use tablets too nowadays? I've
| never seen that.
| BillinghamJ wrote:
| > putting powder/liquid directly in vs contained in a
| water-soluble capsule is.. the same
|
| Assuming you mean putting it directly in the "tub" versus
| in the compartment, no that's not true.
|
| The initial fill - which will dissolve anything put
| directly into the tub - drains fairly quickly. The
| detergent in the compartment is only released after this
| point.
|
| If there's nothing in the compartment, there won't be any
| detergent being used for the bulk of the washing - so
| regardless of form factor, it's important to use that.
|
| But in addition - rather than instead, putting a small
| amount of powder in the tub will make the initial rinsing
| much more effective.
| OJFord wrote:
| I think you're talking about washing machines (as in
| clothes)? The part of my comment you quoted (all except
| the parenthetical, matching the one I replied to) was
| about dishwashers.
|
| Good point though. A lot of people who use liquid (as
| opposed to a pod thing) put it in the drum anyway, in a
| reusable container that comes with some brands. I used
| to, until I bought a brand that didn't come with one of
| those on the lid; put it in 'that old-fashioned drawer',
| and wondered why I hadn't always.
| BillinghamJ wrote:
| Yeah I'm in the UK and the tablets are all I've seen too.
| But it seems that e.g. a tablet plus a small amount of
| pre-wash power or similar may perform much better.
|
| I suspect we're just much further along in this cycle
| compared to the US - where manufacturers have accepted
| that people like the tablets and that's that. There's
| still the opportunity to get better cleaning with this
| knowledge though.
|
| It's worth noting there's no need for a pre-wash
| compartment. They do the exact same thing as if you just
| put the detergent into the "tub"
| davewasthere wrote:
| Worth checking your dishwasher though. Ditto, that's all
| I knew in UK (although I mostly hand-washed).
|
| But even here in Aus now, there's a little compartment
| for pre-wash/rinse detergent... but nobody is aware of it
| that I've come across. That youtube video was
| revelationary!
| OJFord wrote:
| Rinse aid? Yeah that goes next to the tablet under a
| little flap. Supermarkets sell it, usually blue.
|
| Is that what the video was about? That tablets 'fly in
| the face of how dishwashers are supposed to work' because
| you also need rinse aid?
|
| That's nonsense, how every dishwasher I've used has been
| supposed to work is you keep the salt topped up, the
| rinse aid topped up, and (supposedly optionally) use a
| tablet with each wash.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| No, not rinse aid. The video discusses the way
| dishwashers work; most of them have two distinct cycles,
| one spraying off most of the loose food, draining the
| tub, and then another, which has its water recycled.
|
| Most dishwashers are designed to have a little detergent
| in the first cycle and then most in the second cycle. The
| detergent from the first cycle becomes available to the
| water immediately, the detergent for the second cycle is
| the part that you put in the compartment.
|
| If you want to know the details, watch the rest of the
| video. Or, if you don't want to do that, read your dish
| washer's manual. Maybe yours was designed without to
| forego detergent in the first cycle, because people have
| switched to pods anyway. Maybe it wasn't, and you can get
| a hygiene boost by using powder instead of pods.
|
| If you use detergent pods, one of your cycles won't run
| with anything but water. If you put the detergent in the
| tub, the longer, second cycle runs without detergent. If
| you put the pod in the little compartment, the first
| cycle is much less effective than it can be.
|
| Many machines are still designed for powder or gel
| detergents that you put into both compartments. You can
| get the same dishwasher performance by using two
| dishwasher tablets per run (one in the tub and one in the
| compartment) but that'll use up way more detergent than
| you actually need.
|
| Rinse aid is for maintaining your dishwasher, that's
| something different entirely.
| Symbiote wrote:
| > Most dishwashers are designed to have a little
| detergent in the first cycle and then most in the second
| cycle.
|
| This is uncommon, possibly non-existent, in dishwashers
| sold in Europe in the last decade or longer.
|
| I remember them having a pre-wash detergent compartment
| in the 1990s, but nowadays there's only a single
| compartment, for the main wash.
| Nullabillity wrote:
| The pre-wash compartment is really just a lidless
| measuring scoop anyway. If you don't have one, put it
| directly into the washing compartment instead.
| bartman wrote:
| My recently bought Miele dishwasher has such a
| compartment (DE). They're even labeled as I and II.
| OJFord wrote:
| > Most dishwashers are designed to have a little
| detergent in the first cycle and then most in the second
| cycle. The detergent from the first cycle becomes
| available to the water immediately, the detergent for the
| second cycle is the part that you put in the compartment.
|
| _None_ that I 've ever seen here.
|
| > If you want to know the details, watch the rest of the
| video. Or, if you don't want to do that, read your dish
| washer's manual.
|
| The video is.. I'm not its target audience. But I do
| actually have the manual: its 'programme phases' are
| 'pre-wash', 'wash' (different temperatures depending on
| setting), rinse, and dry. The detergent tablet is
| dispensed in the 'wash' phase. There's nowhere to put any
| to be dispensed in the 'pre-wash' phase. So, instead of
| 'some then most', it's 'none then all'. I've never known
| one work differently.
|
| > Many machines are still designed for powder or gel
| detergents that you put into both compartments.
|
| Right, again, not here: I don't have and have never seen
| one with two detergent compartments.
|
| I still don't think tablets 'fly in the face of how the
| machine's supposed to work', there should just be big &
| little detergent tablets for markets with big & little
| detergent compartments.
|
| Everywhere else with single compartments, a single tablet
| works fine, is exactly how the machine's designed to
| work, and they often even have a 'recommended brand' (for
| whatever commission).
| CRConrad wrote:
| > There's nowhere to put any to be dispensed in the 'pre-
| wash' phase.
|
| Some comments here have mentioned that one can put it
| into the main compartment of the machine. Just squirt it
| in on the floor, if I understood correctly.
| BillinghamJ wrote:
| I don't think UK dishwashers typically have such a
| compartment, but no need for it anyway - same result
| achieved by putting the equivalent detergent directly in
| the tub, though you lose the convenient dosing
| [deleted]
| cigaser wrote:
| There are like 5 stages, each requires different amount. It is
| well explained here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04
| Daniel_sk wrote:
| Proprietary cassettes for dishwashing machines? That's next
| level. Also I don't get the advantage that you don't need to
| measure the detergent level, I have always used standard "all-in-
| one" tabs (1 tab = 1 wash) for my dishwasher, they cost around
| 0.15 Euro per wash and they only thing I need to add ever few
| weeks is salt (due to hard water). You can buy the tabs in large
| packs like 100 in one plastic bag and they are not individually
| packed (the packaging dissolves during the wash). No need for
| shipping back the cassette to refill or complicated recycling. We
| are reinventing the wheel again.
| raverbashing wrote:
| > I don't get the advantage that you don't need to measure the
| detergent level, I have always used standard "all-in-one" tabs
|
| Yeah this kind of "convenience" makes my BS meter beep. It's a
| non-problem, and I'm always suspicious of things like this
| because it's usually a sign they're trying to sneak something
| past you. (Or marketing to "the new generation" of domestic
| chores deficient people)
|
| I mean, sure, I get that a dishwasher that needs no plumbing is
| a good idea, but at the same time, it's too few dishes (in my
| case) to be a big chore.
| amelius wrote:
| The "Nespresso" businessmodel of cartridges is too
| environmentally unfriendly, and one of these days
| governments/EU will step in and crush it.
| glogla wrote:
| The "Nes" in the name is from Nestle, who owns it - so it
| being terrible can't a surprise to anyone.
| ohazi wrote:
| > one of these days governments/EU will step in and crush it
|
| This seems unreasonably optimistic
| barrkel wrote:
| As mentioned in the article, those tabs are for full-sized
| dishwashers.
|
| Also IME, cheap dishwasher tablets (e.g. the generic blue/white
| combo) don't work very well.
| hahamrfunnyguy wrote:
| If you're in the US, the Ultra Shine brand available at
| Dollar Tree works great for me and is the best price I could
| find. $.10 a pod. I don't have hard water and I run my
| dishwasher on the normal wash cycle. Normally don't load
| dishes with heavily caked on food particles.
| capableweb wrote:
| The tabs are ridiculously ineffective! I had issues for a
| year with my dishwasher until one of the handymen looking at
| it suggested to use the powder detergent for the compartments
| instead. Tried it once and it made a night-and-day
| difference. Never going back to those shitty tabs if I end up
| with a full-sized dishwasher in the future.
| sgarland wrote:
| The tabs suck. Gel packs (at least, Finish Quantum) work
| amazingly, though.
| zikzak wrote:
| The cleanest wash I have even gotten in a dishwashing
| machine is using a small dab of liquid dish soap (like you
| would use to wash by hand) instead of "real" dishwasher
| soap. I don't use it regularly because others either think
| it is nuts or would use too much on the few nights I don't
| load the machine. I have up trying to justify it and just
| use tabs for political reasons but the fact is I got a
| great wash for way less product. Something to note:
| commercial dishwasher machines (food service) use liquid
| soap (automatically dispensed, of course).
| gambiting wrote:
| Interesting - we have a Bosch Dishwasher, always used
| Finish (the brand) tablets and everything comes out
| perfectly clean, every time. I joke that the multiple modes
| on the machine are just for show because it literally makes
| no difference if I pick the 50C eco wash or 70C intensive
| wash - everything comes out super clean anyway.
| sgtnoodle wrote:
| The last time I took an interest, "Quantum Finish with
| Powerball" seemed to be the sweet spot for performance
| vs. cost. That's decade old information, though.
| barrkel wrote:
| We have a Miele dishwasher, and there's a difference for
| some things. The most recent example is some burnt on
| porridge after a bain-marie double pot had gotten
| forgotten about on the hob. The 55deg wash didn't get
| that clean but a separate 70deg wash did.
| Kaibeezy wrote:
| New Bosch here too. We stopped using the 30-minute quick
| cycle which blasts the dishes with a lot of water but
| doesn't seem to get them clean, plus leaves a bitter
| soapy residue, bleh, and all the plastic is wet.
|
| I couldn't believe the eco cycle would take 3 hours, but
| it does a fantastic job. Also never thought I'd care
| about rinse aid, but now I'm obsessive about never
| running a cycle without it or having a spare bottle on
| hand.
|
| This was an excellent post, and zero surprise the secret
| sauce can be replaced for pence/pennies on the
| pound/dollar.
|
| Remember the ridiculous "fresh squeezed" juice bags?
| What's next? DRM petrol/gasoline for hyper-performance
| (eco + power + range) auto fuel... but it's regular gas
| with a couple drops of stuff added? Music player +
| headphone combo but you can only listen to Neil Young?
| Tomte wrote:
| To all the European Bosch dishwasher users: does yours
| clean starch properly?
|
| All my stainless steel pots and pans have a starch layer
| after cooking potatoes or rice. I've tried all kinds of
| detergents and am using Alec's "use some detergent for
| pre-wash" method.
| gambiting wrote:
| If UK still counts as "European" - yeah. I put all my
| pans and pots in the dishwasher after cooking and they
| come out clean. The specific dishwasher is
| SMS67MW00G(Series 6 basically) + I use the Finish 0%
| tabs(I'm very sensitive to strong chemical smells, and
| those tabs don't leave any fregrance when you open the
| dishwasher).
| gambiting wrote:
| Yeah ok, the 30 minute wash admittedly is very poor. But
| the quick wash + Vario speed so it's done in 1:05? Still
| perfect.
|
| And we have cheaper electricity between 00:30-4:30am so I
| just always schedule that 3h long eco wash for then.
| vishnugupta wrote:
| +1 to Finish. Been using it for an year.
|
| BTW being from India and new to using dishwasher I got
| into the habit of rising the dishes before placing them
| in dishwasher. I recommend it. It's a little extra work
| but the dishes come out sparkling clean every single
| time.
| cricalix wrote:
| The whole point of a dishwasher though, is that you
| /don't/ need to do that. Strongly recommend watching
| Technology Connection's video on the subject; the
| takeaway is to put powder/tab in free for the first
| cycle, and powder/tab in the compartment for the main
| wash - first cycle takes away way more dirt that way.
| raverbashing wrote:
| Some things do get stuck if you don't rinse, it won't
| take everything out of it. It is not magical (and filters
| get clogged)
| jimktrains2 wrote:
| > The whole point of a dishwasher though, is that you
| /don't/ need to do that.
|
| Our filter clogs really quickly if we leave too much on
| the dishes, even with prewash detergent.
| lupire wrote:
| > compartments
|
| Plural.
|
| We're you using two tabs per wash? If not, you aren't
| prewashing with detergent, so you are washing your dishes
| in the filth.
| wlll wrote:
| I've used tabs (brand name ones) for nearly 20 years and
| they're perfect.
| sokoloff wrote:
| We have a Bosch dishwasher and switched over to tablets
| (Finish brand) when I installed it after using the sample
| packs.
|
| It's hands-down the most effective dishwasher I've ever
| used; I never imagined I'd have feelings about or brand
| allegiance to a dishwasher, but Bosch earned it (and Finish
| is part of it, I guess).
| mypalmike wrote:
| Beware of their bottom end models. My house came with a
| Bosch and it does a decent job cleaning but it's very
| cheaply made. There's a weld that failed that used to
| hold the upper spray hose in place, the bottom rack falls
| out of the track most of the time... My Whirlpool at my
| previous home was far better built.
| mey wrote:
| My experience as well, different tabs have massively
| different quality.
| Daniel_sk wrote:
| Sure, but for 0.15-0.20 Euro per tab you can get quality
| tabs. I buy "Jar Platinum" tabs in bulk and I have never had
| any issues with the quality of the wash and I have been using
| them for like 10 years daily.
| barrkel wrote:
| I think Jar is a Czech (and maybe others) brand equivalent
| of Fairy in the UK.
| nannal wrote:
| It is, bother are Procter & Gamble
| throw0101a wrote:
| > "all-in-one" tabs (1 tab = 1 wash) for my dishwasher,
|
| Technology Connections explains why you actually want to use
| powder:
|
| * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04
|
| TL; DR: It allows for the pre-wash/rinse cycle to work properly
| and gets things cleaner, faster.
| kortex wrote:
| Since we are talking dishwasher life hacks: I always add
| washing soda (sodium carbonate) along with the detergent, for
| hard water. It's one of the main ingredients in dry
| detergent, but it's super cheap. It boosts pH and increases
| the ratio of sodium to detergent, reducing soap scum.
| lostlogin wrote:
| Washing soda? I'd never heard of it. Here is a nice
| explanation of how you make washing soda and the
| difference.
|
| TLDR, bake some baking soda for a few hours to make washing
| soda.
|
| https://www.drkarenslee.com/make-your-own-homemade-
| washing-s...
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Or just buy it at the store?
| deepspace wrote:
| One thing I have been doing since watching this video was to
| add a small scoop of Oxyclean to the dishwasher (in addition
| to the tab). The difference in cleanliness has been
| noticeable.
| wodenokoto wrote:
| I haven't seen a machine that holds detergent for prewash
| cycles nor powdered detergent here in Denmark for over a
| decade
| Dah00n wrote:
| I just bought some the other day in Lovbjerg.
| Daniel_sk wrote:
| Same. I just opened my wash machine to check - no separate
| compartment for prewash.
| amalter wrote:
| I watched the same Technology Connections video and
| started adding a squirt (I use inexpensive liquid
| detergent) just directly on the inside of the door.
|
| It has remarkably increased the "crud busting" power of
| my Bosch. I used to be fastidious about pre-rinsing
| before going in the dishwasher. Not I'm more confident to
| just go from table to washer (with a super quick rinse)
|
| Even if you use tablets, buy a bit of liquid or powder
| and put about a teaspoon into the initial rinse.
|
| On a tangent, the dishwasher is such a wonderful
| improvement on hand washing. My parents generation still
| sees the dishwasher as some kind of cheat or lazy way
| out.
|
| They are so much more efficient and environmentally
| friendly than hand washing.
|
| If you have more than one or two pots, you'll easily use
| more than the couple of liters of water your dishwasher
| uses (and the heat for that water has to come from
| somewhere).
| iforgotpassword wrote:
| Same! Using normal dish soap that's sitting next to the
| sink anyways; if you only add a squirt, it doesn't start
| making foam like crazy as it pretty much gets "used up"
| by all the grease, and the result is so much better.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Yeah just don't use too much. It was long ago but my
| then-roommate once used liquid dish detergent in the
| dishwasher because we had run out of dishwasher
| detergent. The seemingly endless gallons of foam flowing
| out onto the floor was quite memorable.
| chris_engel wrote:
| I'm not so sure about the environmental friendlyness. Our
| dishwasher runs for one and a half hour in eco mode. I'd
| need to measure how much energy it uses in the process.
| It feels so inefficient and slow. I'd spend about 20
| minutes washing and drying the dishes on my own using
| cold water...
|
| We still use it because with kids, every minute saved is
| a small win.
| BillinghamJ wrote:
| It does seem odd, but it is _far_ better than doing it
| manually. The reason it's so much more efficient is
| because it takes so long - it can do a great job despite
| using very little energy and water because it just keeps
| going at it gradually
| eru wrote:
| The main power saving comes from running at lower
| temperature.
|
| Heating up water takes way more electricity than running
| the pumps.
| Tomte wrote:
| Take a look at the Technology Connections video. Most
| people would be astonished how little water is used.
|
| And considering that practically all of the energy use is
| heating the water, that translates into low energy use.
| lozenge wrote:
| The eco modes (or just generally, modes on newer
| dishwashers) take longer because to balance out the small
| amount of water, they need to spray the dishes more
| times. The energy use is low.
| sorenjan wrote:
| How much water and energy does it take to manufacture the
| machine? Mining the raw materials, transporting
| everything from different countries, etc, Sure it's
| convenient, but I'm not sold on the environment
| friendliness compared to hand washing. Of course, if you
| already have one it doesn't make sense to not use it, but
| much of our collective energy use comes from consumption
| and making new things we don't need.
| rajeshgupta021 wrote:
| I agree
| iforgotpassword wrote:
| My ikea one from 2016 has one.
| wodenokoto wrote:
| Both Ikea ones that came with my last and current place
| doesn't have one. Maybe it's a higher end feature.
| iforgotpassword wrote:
| I think I picked the cheapest one. Could it be a regional
| thing? I'm in Germany.
| Operyl wrote:
| He even mentions that in the video, likely that your
| machine maker has altered their programmed cycles a bit to
| accommodate for it.
| BillinghamJ wrote:
| Luckily, there's no need! Anything you'd put in a prewash
| compartment, you can put directly in the "tub" for the same
| effect
|
| (Note this is not the case for the normal compartment -
| that does work differently)
| Rafert wrote:
| My brand new Kitchenaid dishwasher has the prewash
| compartment on top of the normal compartment -
| effectively making it a measuring cup throwing its
| contents into the tub once you close the door.
| maeln wrote:
| When there is no holder for the prewash cycle, you can just
| dump some detergent directly in the dishwasher.
| brewmarche wrote:
| My dishwasher lacks the prewash basin as well and the
| manual recommends to just dump some detergent onto the
| door for the prewash cycle.
| brewmarche wrote:
| Another point regarding tabs: some of them contain rinse aids
| and salt (or other limescale mitigation) in addition to the
| detergent.
|
| Salt needs to be dosed (read the manual and check the
| hardness of your water) which is not possible with tabs.
|
| The rinse aid in the tab would be released at the wrong time
| together with the detergent. (Not sure how big of a problem
| this is).
| rblatz wrote:
| Yeah, this video was interesting but didn't at all support
| the conclusion he made. He stopped the cycle half way through
| and basically compared washing with soap and without.
| Shocker,with soap was better. More surprising is how close
| without soap was.
|
| I assume he skipped comparing full cycle because showing that
| there isn't a difference doesn't result in a catchy title and
| an interesting video.
| sgarland wrote:
| I'm a fan of the channel, and watched the video, but also
| haven't had issues with my Bosch not having a pre-rinse
| compartment. It washes far better than any dishwasher I've
| had before, including ones that had a pre-rinse compartment.
| pocketgrok wrote:
| Your dishwasher was designed to be used without a pre-rinse
| and is good dishwasher. I've had not-so-great dishwashers
| with pre-rinse slots that were essentially required.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| > Proprietary cassettes for dishwashing machines? That's next
| level.
|
| Sony had proprietary cassettes for all kinds of products over
| the years, even when there were standards available (Betamax is
| the most famous but only one example)
|
| I have 4 handheld voice recorders from the 1970s from my
| father. Philips, Norelco, Sony, and one other brand. All use
| the same size microcassette except the Sony. Fuck you, Sony.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| Betamax wasn't any more proprietary than VHS which was
| developed by JVC. It has a fairly large number of
| manufacturers that produced VCRs including NEC, Toshiba, Aiwa
| and Pioneer the issue was mainly cost and the fact that
| Betamax cam recorders could not be miniaturized as
| efficiently and as cheaply as VHS so you ended up with a two
| stage solution still for home movies and amateur movie
| production (porn played a big role here).
| kmeisthax wrote:
| >porn played a big role here
|
| Beta had porn.
|
| Furthermore, that's not how home video _worked_. VHS and
| Beta were sold on their TV recording capabilities, not
| their home video libraries. Home video was supposed to be
| handled by disc formats (Laserdisc, CED, VHD, etc); selling
| movies on $100-ish tapes was prohibitively expensive
| compared to ~$15 discs.
|
| Eventually this was worked around with video rental shops
| and falling prices of VHS tape, but a consequence of this
| is that neither Sony nor JVC were licensing content for
| distribution on their tapes. Remember, you could record
| whatever you wanted on the tape; that was the _point_.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| By home movies I mean replacing the super 8 format.
|
| The design behind VHS made camcorders cheaper to make as
| well as enabled them to be used to play video. Betamax at
| the time had a more complicated solution where a separate
| player was needed and also initially a two stage solution
| where different tapes had to be used.
| city41 wrote:
| I don't think Beta really counts here. Probably the best
| example of Sony doing this is their Memory Stick, despite
| compact flash, sd and usb storage being readily available.
| [deleted]
| Rafert wrote:
| > Proprietary cassettes for dishwashing machines? That's next
| level.
|
| I was in the market for a new washing machine and noticed the
| Miele W1 machines now have something similar called "TwinDos".
| You can still add detergent the old-fashioned way but it had me
| wondering if this is a lead-up to the same business practices
| we see with Nespresso and inkjet cartridges.
| iforgotpassword wrote:
| I haven't done any actual research, but I got a feeling that
| Miele might have been bought up or some external entity got a
| say in how to optimize their business?
|
| A 70yo family friend loves Miele. Never bought anything else
| for a dish washer, washing machine or drier. When his dish
| washer broke down two years ago - he proudly mentioned that
| it lasted him 22 years - he obviously bought Miele again.
|
| Just half a year later it broke, he called a Miele
| technician, who said that this wouldn't be covered by
| warranty: You see, the manual explicitly states that you
| _must_ run the machine with a higher-temperature program
| every so-and-so-ishth time, since the ECO program, which is
| selected by default every time you turn that goddamn thing
| on, doesn 't heat the up the water enough, and all the gunk
| will add up in the machine's pipes over time, damaging it.
|
| Now that's all fine and logical and I would have shrugged it
| off if this was an Ikea or no name brand from the local
| store, but a goddamn Miele that costs premium and is supposed
| to be a quality product? It's designed by _German engineers_
| which probably qualify as rocket scientists in every other
| country on this planet. And they _cannot_ figure out how to
| add a counter to that thing so it would warn you if you used
| ECO mode too many times, or even better yet, make it just
| raise the temperature automatically even though you selected
| ECO?
|
| Traditional German companies complain about not being able to
| compete with competition from eastern Europe and China, but
| then go ahead and pretty much offer the same quality by going
| to alibaba.com and ordering from there, with a Miele logo
| slapped on, while keeping the price the same as before. I can
| only see this being a short term solution, thanks to those
| old folks who have your brand image burned into their heads
| from thirty years ago, and will keep buying your stuff. The
| family friend from above? He got a discount of 50EUR for
| buying a new Miele, which he happily accepted. qed.
| cheschire wrote:
| Funny, when our Miele dish washer broke the Miele repair
| person said it was because our water was too hot. It
| wasn't, our heating company confirmed the temp.
| lozenge wrote:
| My non-Miele clothes washing machine has the same
| stipulation, and you obviously wouldn't want it suddenly
| ruining your clothes or dishes with a higher temperature.
| But it does come with a counter and indicator light for the
| hot wash.
|
| I don't think you can blame acquisition- it is the eternal
| cycle of brands that at some point they start frittering
| away their value instead of building it up.
| iforgotpassword wrote:
| With clothes I see the issue, but even the "auto/normal"
| program would've been fine according to the manual. I've
| never seen anything that said it's for the dishwasher but
| cannot do more than 40C, or whatever ECO does.
|
| > it is the eternal cycle of brands that at some point
| they start frittering away their value instead of
| building it up.
|
| Yeah, maybe I'm reading a bit too much in there,
| sometimes you just need the wrong guy in charge.
| lights0123 wrote:
| Although there's zero electronics involved in the cartridges,
| and it's pretty easy to refill yourself too.
| canadianfella wrote:
| You act like these "all in one tabs" or tide pods have been
| around forever.
| tomxor wrote:
| > Proprietary cassettes for dishwashing machines? That's next
| level.
|
| Although it _is_ proprietary, to be fair on two points: there
| wasn 't really any "DRM", it was literally just a one byte
| counter on an EEPROM so that a cartridge could digitally record
| the number of washes remaining, and the machine made no attempt
| to prevent this being changed. The manufacturer also did not
| prohibit the cartridges from being refilled by owners, this is
| in stark contrast to printer manufacturers.
|
| I agree they could have done way more to make it easy for users
| to refill, although it's not prohibited it's completely
| impractical without some EE knowledge, and as the author says
| sending cartridges around the world is not a very efficient way
| of getting detergent back into these things. To be honest a
| better design would be no cartridges and a couple of reservoirs
| with level sensors (As you essentially suggested regarding
| measuring detergent level), since the machine already seems to
| be capable of pumping an accurate amount of liquid out of the
| cartridges they wouldn't even need to measure, just fill... I
| suspect the reason they didn't do this was for a more "consumer
| friendly" design where users have to do the least possible
| work, as it is more of a luxury product than a utility.
|
| I'm not entirely convinced they are trying to make a serious
| margin on the cartridges, they work out about 3x the cost of
| the most expensive dishwasher tablet, but they have to send the
| thing back to france to be reprocessed and programmed...
| probably not at a scale to be very cost effective.
|
| I do love the article though, it's great to be able to hack on
| stuff like this when the manufacturer made poor decisions.
| tyingq wrote:
| I'm confused. Yes, normal consumers can probably figure out
| how to put detergent and rinse liquid in. But what percentage
| of customers is going to be able to overwrite an i2c EEPROM?
| It is DRM for almost everyone.
| Symbiote wrote:
| Is is exactly DRM: it's a digital method intended to restrict
| the user from undesirable usage (from the manufacturer's
| point of view).
|
| Early restrictions on printer cartridges in the 1990s were
| simple: they could be bypassed with a bit of tape, or
| pressing a combination of buttons on the printer. Later, the
| chips could be reset, probably in a way similar to this. Now,
| there are encryption keys etc.
|
| > suspect the reason they didn't do this was for a more
| "consumer friendly" design
|
| That is naive.
| tomxor wrote:
| >> suspect the reason they didn't do this was for a more
| "consumer friendly" design
|
| > That is naive.
|
| We are supposed to avoid this kind of retort on HN, but
| I'll try to read underneath the surface.
|
| I am more likely than most to infer exploitative and
| manipulative intent behind the choices of large
| corporations. However I am also very much a realist.
|
| Consider that this company (whom I never herd of before
| this post) is not some multinational behemoth like Samsung.
| This product is coming from a very new, small manufacturer
| of luxury, miniature home appliances in France (so far a
| manufacturer of 1 appliance it seems). Given their niche
| target market, it seems far more likely to me that their
| choice to use cartridges is an attempt to fit that market,
| than an attempt to milk people for huge margins at scale on
| a consumable. Yes it's far from economical, but nether is
| their product.
|
| I may be wrong, but I am not naive.
| switchbak wrote:
| I think investors are looking for the next Keurig.
| Sustainability be damned.
|
| Look at the lengths Juicero went to create a subscription
| model for juice. Clearly there is a desire for that
| business model to be applied more broadly than just
| inkjet printers.
|
| Absent any indications to the contrary, my default
| assumption is that we're seeing the same business model
| applied here.
| simias wrote:
| Given that they went out of their way to build an auto-
| renewal system in the device (a pretty sophisticated
| endeavor for a kitchen appliance manufacturer) it seems
| blatantly obvious that this lock-in was meant to prevent
| refills. Otherwise why not offer a manual override?
|
| I have air filters that notify you when the filters
| should be checked or changed, I have coffee machines that
| tell you when you should descale them but they all let
| you override or ignore the issue if you so desire. And
| they're a lot less sophisticated than this device.
|
| I'm not a fan of ad-hominem but I do agree with Symbiote
| that your take in a bit naive. You don't need to be a
| behemoth to embrace a crappy business model. Remember
| Juicero?
| throwawayboise wrote:
| > You don't need to be a behemoth to embrace a crappy
| business model.
|
| It's also the almost cliche case study in undergraduate
| business school. Known as the "Kodak" model or the
| "Gillette" model: "Give away the camera, sell the film"
| or "Give away the shaver, sell the blades" and while it's
| not an exact fit (I doubt they're selling the washer at
| cost) it's in the same vein.
| ac29 wrote:
| The cartridge system certainly doesn't seem inconvenient,
| but given that they designed the system to hold at least
| 2-3L of water in a user refillable compartment, it
| slightly baffles the mind that holding 130mL of detergent
| and 35mL of rinse aid in a similar fashion was deemed
| impossible (or impractical).
| nousermane wrote:
| From manufacturer's perspective, to make a user-
| refillable detergent/rinse container is against own
| interests all round:
|
| - Give up on additional revenue;
|
| - Costly to make machine more robust/tolerant to
| variations in composition/pH/viscosity/etc. of 3rd-party
| detergent;
|
| - No good way to enforce rinse/calcite removal inside
| machine - without DRM, user can just pour water as
| "rinse" liquid, and then lie when RMAing the washer that
| eventually clogged up and broke.
| DangitBobby wrote:
| Have you ever noticed at the pump that the nozzle for
| diesel doesn't fit in your car if it uses a gasoline
| engine? Try it some time. This is to prevent people who
| aren't paying enough attention from ruining their day by
| putting diesel in their car. It would be trivial to sell
| large commerical-grade detergent containers with similar
| protections to provide an affordable, fool-proof
| mechanism to refill their own cannisters. The best thing
| about this approach is that you could still provide the
| subscription based model to anyone who truly values the
| model (instead of being simply forced to use that model
| due to lack of a suitable alternative), giving your
| customers the best of all worlds. Obviously, that doesn't
| quite rake in the money the way that the "razor and
| blades" approach to gouging your customers in the name of
| convenience does.
|
| Obviously anything that means you rake in less money is
| against the short-term interests of the sales department,
| but not necessarily the long-term interests of the
| company.
| simias wrote:
| Per TFA:
|
| >Credit where credit's due, Daan Tech didn't completely
| lock down the machine with Bob cassettes. Once empty, you
| can leave it there and add detergents manually.
|
| If that was the true concern they'd have locked that up
| as well. They want you to pay for convenience, not for
| the warranty's sake.
| shard wrote:
| I think noucermane is correct. Your point that there
| wasn't any software DRM does not mean that they did not
| intend it as DRM. I expect that they did a cost benefit
| analysis of additional electronics for SW DRM vs revenue
| lost due to hackers like this one for this version of
| their product, and found the tradeoff acceptable. This
| does not mean that if this hack became easily available
| and widely used, that they would not implement SW DRM on
| a later revision. Who knows, maybe the current version is
| already ready for SW DRM, it's just that they haven't
| felt the need to release the DRM version of the cartridge
| yet.
| [deleted]
| mnouquet wrote:
| > Is is exactly DRM: it's a digital method intended to
| restrict the user from undesirable usage (from the
| manufacturer's point of view).
|
| Bollocks. DRM would have been to digitally sign the EEPROM.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| You're right for the wrong reasons. DRM doesn't have to
| involve encryption; but it does have to involve
| copyright.
|
| A right-click blocker script or those domain locks on old
| Flash games is a form of DRM as long as it keeps you from
| copying something. Doesn't have to be elaborate, doesn't
| have to involve crypto. It just has to have the effect of
| stopping you from copying something that copyright law
| protects. Once you have that, then it's unlawful to
| remove the DRM unless it's for a lawful purpose; and it's
| unlawful to tell anyone how to remove it for _any_
| purpose.
| Zak wrote:
| I have beginner-level lockpicking skills. I can rake open
| the door locks from companies like Schlage and Kwikset
| used on most houses in the US in a few seconds. That
| they're easily defeated by someone with basic knowledge
| of tools for manipulating them does not mean they aren't
| locks.
|
| This DRM will prevent the average consumer from refilling
| the cartridges even if it's easily defeated by those with
| a working knowledge of embedded electronics.
| mnouquet wrote:
| > I have beginner-level lockpicking skills.
|
| Pretty irrelevant "argumentum ad verecundiam", but for
| the sake of argument, you are not "average" anymore.
| Being able to pick Schlage and Kwikset already puts you
| in the probably 0.1%.
|
| Anyhow, back on track, the average customer does not
| refill their cartridges. I doubt the idea of doing so has
| even sparked in their head. (and yes, the average
| consumer is _dumb_ ).
| shard wrote:
| > the average customer does not refill their cartridges
|
| Yes, and this is why this rudimentary hardware DRM is
| sufficient for the current market. If the marketplace
| changes and the hack becomes easily attainable and widely
| used, SW DRM may emerge.
| jtbayly wrote:
| Printer cartridges used to be easier to fill, too. Give them
| time.
| tomxor wrote:
| You might be right, time will tell. Or they might never
| develove into that position due to slightly better consumer
| protection laws since the HP thing.
| Mordisquitos wrote:
| On the other hand, one could argue that if the dishwasher
| manufacturer's intention was indeed to prevent user
| refills, they would have known to already implement their
| own strict "DRM-style" technological limitations, drawing
| from the history of printer cartridges. The fact that they
| haven't may well be a sign of good faith.
| bayindirh wrote:
| A small bit of trivia:
|
| In the days of HP Deskjet 500C/510/550C trio, HP sold
| official black cartridge refill kits. It was a bit clunky,
| but you inserted your cartridge to a contraption, pulled
| some levers in order presented on the device and you'd have
| an officially refilled cartridge.
|
| The black cartridges on these printers were transparent,
| held really liquid ink to the brim and the refill device
| had aluminum, HP branded ink bottles. Oh, the cartridges
| had air-pillows inside to maintain a positive pressure at
| all times.
| adrr wrote:
| My new printer has ink tanks that I can put any type ink
| into. No cartridges.
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| Which printer is that?
| slacktide wrote:
| The one Shaq is hawking.
| bayindirh wrote:
| HP also has one. It's more expensive than normal ones, so
| it doesn't smell like razor-cartridge business model.
|
| I'd happily buy one of these but, my current one runs
| like a champ and it's ink-advantage model, so it's really
| cheap to run.
| sagarm wrote:
| Lasers are better if you don't print that often. I got
| one ten years ago and I'm still on the starter toner!
| bayindirh wrote:
| I have both laser and inkjet printers. Inkjet is for
| color, photos, and its scanning capabilities. Got a laser
| for printing papers during master and Ph.D.
|
| Mine has split drum and toner. Its life is very long, but
| I need to find a new drum for it soonish, and it's a bit
| hard to find. Also Samsung's transfer to HP isn't
| helping.
|
| Don't want to throw it away because it's a small business
| printer and a flawless machine from my point of view.
| adrr wrote:
| I have a laser for b/w. It's a entry level brother
| printer. The toner cartridges they come with are only
| partially filled and replacements are expensive. My
| starting toner cartridge died after a couple reams of
| paper. Nice thing of about laser is the toner doesn't dry
| up like inkjets but they also moved toward razor handle
| and blade model.
| adrr wrote:
| Epson ecotank. Other manufactures have tank inkjets as
| well to be more eco friendly and economical.
| astura wrote:
| I use tablets too, but this is a ultra compact dishwasher so
| tablets aren't going to work on it, they are meant for full
| sized machines.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I love reading these hacks!
|
| Of course, from a pounds-and-pennies sense, the work he did,
| hacking the washer, was probably worth enough to buy a dozen of
| them.
| klyrs wrote:
| > An eagle-eyed user flopp pointed out the value at 0xa1 is
| calculated as Washes left XOR 0x50, thanks! Not sure why they did
| it like this, but anyway!
|
| Hilarious. Sounds like somebody's manager overheard a
| conversation about one-time pads on the subway
| underdeserver wrote:
| Bob looks really cool. I'd 100% buy one and use the "DRM"
| detergent capsules until they went out of business, just to
| support them. $2K over 12 years is not enough to bother.
| mikro2nd wrote:
| Loved the obsessiveness! FWIW the entire beer-brewing industry
| _runs_ on NaOH for cleaning and sanitising. Disposing of it is
| not quite as environmentally-friendly as the dishwasher
| manufacturer seems to want you to believe -- in most places you
| 'd be in serious trouble if you poured any significant quantity
| down the drain.
|
| eta: I've just looked up the constituents of the dishwasher
| tablets we've been using, and yes, indeed, they're mostly NaOH,
| an inert carrier (Na2SO4) and a variety of water-softeners,
| packaging films to keep everything in tablet form (but soluble)
| and a small number of helper enzymes, perfumes and whiteners.
| Looks like a teaspoon of NaOH might work justabout as well. :D
| jiggawatts wrote:
| Sodium hydroxide is only dangerous if concentrated. Diluted,
| and especially if it is mixed with wastewater, it'll just react
| with the various organics to form soap-like chemicals.
|
| If anything, it'll help clean your sewage pipes!
|
| PS: Most draincleaners are just a concentrated NaOH mixture.
| Consumers pour them down their drain all the time and nobody
| worries about this either...
| cortesoft wrote:
| My plumber always tells me never to use drain cleaners, so I
| wouldn't say nobody worries about it...
| gallexme wrote:
| But u happily eat it on pretzels? There's no issue in low
| concentrations
| spijdar wrote:
| People most certainly don't eat sodium hydroxide on their
| pretzels anymore than they eat raw egg in their cakes.
| Coating pretzels with lye before baking causes a chemical
| reaction that consumes the lye. You really, really
| shouldn't ingest any amount of lye, lest it react with
| the inside of your squishy organic matter like the
| surface of pretzel dough...
| martey wrote:
| Sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is lye, which shouldn't be
| consumed. Pretzel salt is sodium chloride (NaCL).
| CRConrad wrote:
| In German, I think their full name is Laugenbrezel. The
| full name may not be much used[1] colloquially, because
| it's implied -- but bread rolls made the same way are
| definitely called Laugenbrotchen.
|
| "Lauge" is German for "lye". They're called that because
| they're made with it.
|
| [1]: Though when I switched my phone keyboard to German
| just now to test it out, the predictive spelling
| corrector suggested "Laugenbrezel", not "-brotchen", when
| I'd got as far as "Laugenb".
| kortex wrote:
| Nope, pretzels are made with lye (NaOH). That's how you
| get the tasty brown Maillard reaction coating - boil the
| dough in lye water, then bake, _then_ salt it.
| theptip wrote:
| Some traditional pretzel/bagel recipes use lye:
| https://www.bakespace.com/recipes/detail/Soft-Pretzels-
| using...
| mbernstein wrote:
| Lye is used in the creation of pretzels and bagels.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Your plumber tells you to never use something that might
| result in you not needing his services? Imagine that!
| pfranz wrote:
| If you ask them why they say its because it'll often
| dissolve the pipes before the blockage. Most of the
| trades people I talk to aren't looking to maximize their
| work. I've had them turn down jobs for being too gross
| and I don't blame them.
|
| They'll generally use a snake/auger. Home Depot sells a
| basic one for $15. The beefier, further reaching ones
| cost more. Or, for smaller jobs, there are single-use
| plastic snakes.
| spijdar wrote:
| Devil's advocate: the back of those drain cleaner
| solutions make a point that the solution should _never_
| sit or pool in any surface or pipe. You have to run water
| and chase it down so it doesn 't corrode the pipes. I
| know where I live some of the pipes have "flow issues"
| because of bad design, and if there was already a partial
| blockage I can see drain cleaner corroding the pipes...
|
| We just mechanically clean them out ourselves, anyway.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Maybe if you have metal drain pipes. They sell the stuff
| in plastic bottles. If you have PVC drain pipes, it isn't
| going to disolve them.
| Spivak wrote:
| You should avoid drain cleaners because in high
| concentrations they corrode metal.
|
| The compound is fine in your dishwasher because it will
| fully react and neutralize in your plastic or coated metal
| dishwasher casing.
| environment wrote:
| For my own dishwasher I'm using a mix of Potassium hydroxide
| (Potash), Sodium hypochlorite (Bleach) and Sodium
| tripolyphosphate (Phosphates). This is strong stuff, so make
| sure hoses/tubes, seals and connections are compatible if
| anyone wants to try this.
|
| Instead of rinse aid I'm using a 50% citric acid/water
| solution. The final rinse is at 85c or 185f. The stuff dries
| instantly. A built in fan/condensation system prevents moisture
| inside and outside the machine. I'm using two commercial grade
| peristaltic pumps for the chemicals. I have also considered an
| enzyme pre-wash; Protease and Amylase. The diswasher is
| commercial grade, but the racks and operation is just like a
| normal household dishwasher.
|
| Drinking glasses come out spotless. Rinse Aid is not necessary.
| I hold them up to the sunlight for inspection and I see
| nothing.
| bittercynic wrote:
| I'd be interested in reading more about this setup if you
| ever do a write up.
| vxNsr wrote:
| Yes please share what country you're in and what equipment
| you use? This is very interesting.
|
| I've come to the conclusion that buying "consumer" or even
| "prosumer" appliances is a lost cause, all the brands use the
| same 3 white label Chinese manufacturers and you get the same
| quality no matter what you buy, you can expect to be shopping
| for a new appliance in <5 years time.
|
| I'm hopeful that commercial appliances aren't yet at that
| stage, you end up paying a significant premium but you save
| in time and lost effort when you don't have to deal with
| buying a new one so soon.
| guerrilla wrote:
| Hmm, so should we expect a future where washing machines and
| other appliances work like this but with actual DRM? That's a
| dark thought.
| bellyfullofbac wrote:
| Well, printer cartridges already have encrypted chips so you
| can't change the fill status, so has the future been here for a
| while?
|
| Technically even this single byte is "DRM", it's just a really
| simple DRM.
|
| Or, technically, it's not "digital rights", since the "R" stood
| for copyright as applied to works of art (music/movies/video
| games).
|
| Maybe they should just make each cartridge have an NFT, snort.
| foxrider wrote:
| I don't think that's a protective measure, to me it just
| looks like a convenient way of tracking the liquid level in
| the cartridge. I don't think that a hack like this is harming
| the company or cuts into their revenue - most people wouldn't
| bother resetting these thing to refill them manually - the
| labor investment probably isn't worth it. Their target
| audience would pay for convenience, they already do by opting
| for cartridges instead of manual addition.
| guerrilla wrote:
| Wait you're saying most people wouldn't just squeeze a
| bottle of ink into a cartridge? Maybe, hmm.
| Finnucane wrote:
| > "Over a year of daily washes, it would have cost PS174 ($242)
| in Bob cassettes alone!"
|
| I was particularly struck by the this comment. So, the machine is
| small enough that he can have it as a countertop appliance, but
| it is also small enough that it gets fill with one day's worth of
| dishes and needs to be run? So it's a high price to pay for
| diswashing, especially when it seems the machine is not really
| doing a lot. It seems like it would be better to just wash the
| dishes yourself.
| read_if_gay_ wrote:
| If washing the dishes takes you 15 minutes everyday then you
| would have to value your time at like $4 per hour for this to
| not be worth it.
| hahla wrote:
| The Bob Dishwasher is an interesting concept. Looking at their
| website it looks like it would fit 6 plates, 6 cups and a set of
| utensils. What's the point of this? If you're cooking for 6, you
| would have pots and pans which would have to be hand washed. Is 6
| more plates and cups worth going through the effort of loading
| and turning on a dishwasher? Alternatively, I suppose it is more
| water efficient..
| tiborsaas wrote:
| I'm just as puzzled as you. Washing 4 plates and 6 glasses with
| some cutlery takes 5 minutes tops.
| pivo wrote:
| His page links to a YouTube review of the Bob where the
| reviewer claims that it gets things cleaner than it's possible
| to do by hand, especially irregularly shaped items like
| electric grill parts. And yes, the dishwasher uses at most 3L,
| while he estimated sink washing used 10L, not including the 1
| min. of running water wasted waiting for the hot water to
| arrive.
| SergeAx wrote:
| Yes, that was my first impression with dishwasher many years
| ago. It is plain impossible to achieve this quality with hand
| washing. Especially for glassware.
| egypturnash wrote:
| one couple, three days of plates, washed while you're off doing
| something else
|
| one person, almost one week of plates, washed while you're
| doing something else
|
| or put some of those pots and pans in instead of plates, if
| they'll fit
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Seems like a solution for liberating money from people with
| more cash than sense.
| probably_wrong wrote:
| I would have loved something like that when I was a student
| and/or when I was single.
|
| I used to have breakfast on the way, lunch at the Uni/work, and
| a small dinner. 6 plates is therefore close to what I'd use in
| a week. It's also close to what I'd use nowadays if I weren't
| still in home office. And while I do have enough room now for a
| full-sized dishwasher, that wasn't always the case.
| kumarvvr wrote:
| Probably for those who regularly eat out and use dishes and
| glasses to eat.
|
| I am guessing college students, vacation homes, etc.
| leipert wrote:
| Mhm. If you are single and use one plate, one cup per meal, you
| run the dishwasher every two days.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| And have half your countertop taken up by the device 24/7.
| mrec wrote:
| I've been in my current place for about 5 years and have
| never used the dishwasher. Sink works fine and is almost
| instant if you wash everything immediately.
| leipert wrote:
| Personally I think the biggest argument for a dishwasher is
| that stuff is not in-sight anymore.
|
| They also are more efficient, water wise. Our dishwasher
| uses 8 liters per wash. If I fill our sink with 8 liters,
| it barely covers anything. Dish washers use more detergent
| though, this is why I switched to powder which can be dosed
| better.
| [deleted]
| mdeck_ wrote:
| > What's more, the 5L detergent can last well over 3 years of
| daily wash, while the rinse aid can last almost 12 years! Over
| those time you would have spent PS2088 on Bob cassettes, and who
| knows if they will even be around then.
|
| They certainly will be if even a small percent of their customers
| buy into their ridiculous subscription model. Look at those
| sweet, sweet margins!
| yalogin wrote:
| The entrepreneur in me loves this idea. They are able to turn
| dishwashers into a subscription model.
|
| I love the reverse engineering even more. A really step by step
| process, very well written. However I don't understand this
| specific step here -
|
| "So my plan now is to read what's inside the EEPROM. It seemed
| that a special connector is needed, but after rummaging around
| the parts bin, I found that it fits into a USB-A female socket
| just fine! Although I had to insulate the metal case so it won't
| short on the PCB contacts."
|
| Can anyone that understands explain how the EEPROM board can be
| plugged into a USB socket? Are they similar or is there some
| overlap? Once its inserted do I use USB protocol to read the
| data? This is the most interesting part of the whole thing for
| me. Wish the author explained this more, even if in a separate
| blog.
| sgtnoodle wrote:
| The EEPROM board uses pads on its PCB to create an "edge
| connector" with 8 pads. Apparently only 4 pads are needed, and
| presumably there are twice as many for redundancy. Physically,
| the PCB happens to fit into a USB socket with close enough
| spacing to make good contact. This isn't surprising, because
| it's a very common trick to make USB plugs out of PCBs.
|
| Electrically, it's not USB though. It's two pins for power, and
| two for I2C clock and data. It might happen to have the same
| voltage and pin mapping for power as USB, though, so plugging
| in to a USB port on a computer might not blow anything up. A
| microcontroller with a USB host port might even be able to bit-
| bang I2C over the appropriate pins, but that would be rather
| clever...
| nadavami wrote:
| It looks like the connector just happens to fit so it's only
| being used to make the electrical connection. The 4 pins are
| actually power, ground and I2C data and clock.
|
| Edit: Here
| https://github.com/dekuNukem/bob_cassette_rewinder/blob/mast...
| you can see the white and red wires coming from the USB
| connector labelled as SDA and SCL.
| mjg59 wrote:
| As others have said, it's not speaking USB - it just happens to
| be the same shape. But it's probably not a coincidence that
| it's compatible with a USB socket. In this case the designer
| wanted a socket that had 4 pins and could be hotswapped fairly
| regularly. USB sockets satisfy those criteria, are cheap and
| are easily available. It's pretty common to find standard
| connectors re-used for other purposes in the embedded world
| (I've found SATA connectors in some extremely strange places),
| so it wouldn't surprise me if tearing down this dishwasher did
| reveal an actual USB socket.
| fnord77 wrote:
| great work. I love projects like these. Having fun, saving money
| and thwarting what are effectively rent-seekers.
| dperfect wrote:
| Nicely done! Instead of a device to rewind/reset the counter in
| the EEPROM periodically, I wonder how hard it would be to modify
| or replace the EEPROM with something that simply ignores any
| modification to the data (essentially making it read-only). That
| way, the machine thinks it's decrementing the counter each time,
| but it always remains full. There'd be no need for a software
| reset.
| Spivak wrote:
| I think because you still want the counter so you know when to
| refill the cartridge. You're not really benefiting by having it
| always show full.
| Lammy wrote:
| I wonder how well it would work if someone bypassed the
| cartridge and just hooked the dishwasher directly to the two
| giant external jugs, like one of those external CMYK ink tank
| systems for fancy printers.
| dperfect wrote:
| That's true. I suppose keeping track another way might offset
| the added annoyance of the "rewind" routine (attaching
| another device, connecting USB for power) when refilling the
| reservoirs. Personal preference I guess.
| ruslan wrote:
| Replace PCB with your own one having MCU with buit-in
| EEPROM. Add a tiny push button (or just two copper pads),
| pressing/closing which will dischage a capacitor indicating
| "need to rewind" to an MCU. When counter is zero, you take
| off the cartridge, pour in all necessary chemicals, hold
| the button for a while and put it back into the machine.
| magoon wrote:
| While it comes across as an obvious cash grab, the cassette is a
| compelling feature if you consider that it does 30 washes and has
| its own memory of how many each has left. While it is 2x-3x the
| cost of traditional dishwasher pods, they are focusing on
| convenience -- all the way down to automatic delivery and return
| -- which deserves to be recognized as innovation in end-to-end
| product design, service, fulfillment, and product lifecycle.
| maxerickson wrote:
| Does someone come into the house and change it out?
|
| I spend a lot more time (still not much) loading and unloading
| the dishes than I spend acquiring and pouring powder, so I'm
| not sure what value I'm supposed to think this would provide.
| CRConrad wrote:
| > Does someone come into the house and change it out?
|
| No, you mail it to France and get a full one in the mail.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| Then why didn't they provide simple instructions to refill it
| at home? All of the factors you mentioned are still there if
| they were home refillable.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| You can have about the same experience with standard tablets
| though and none of the wasteful shipping and plastic
| cartridges. The dishwasher can be online (for those who want
| it) and report back the amount of washes (the backend can
| calculate the amount of washes per week to predict when you're
| going to run out) so that the manufacturer can send a new box
| in advance.
| kumarvvr wrote:
| Nah, in the present environment, no pun intended, they are
| ecologically irresponsible. Not to mention have a huge carbon
| footprint.
|
| We ought to reward companies on their ability to come up with
| environmentally friendly ways to get things done.
| williesleg wrote:
| I loves me those extra reliable appliances! Reminds me of hp
| printers!
| solarkraft wrote:
| All cool and good, but I'd have stopped at step 1: Considering
| buying a dish washer with DRMed detergent. Sorry, but rewarding
| people with such outrageous proposals with a purchase is morally
| questionable in itself.
| lexicality wrote:
| Yeah at that point I said "Hang on wasn't there a Cory Doctorow
| story about this?" out loud
| unixfg wrote:
| Whole thing is here:
| https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-
| bread-a-...
| astura wrote:
| 1) There's no DRM, just a counter
|
| 2) these cassettes are optional
|
| >Credit where credit's due, Daan Tech didn't completely lock
| down the machine with Bob cassettes. Once empty, you can leave
| it there and add detergents manually.
| kumarvvr wrote:
| To be fair, a large section of population does not see it that
| way, nor is the advertisement fully truthful. Usually they are
| advertised as pods that cost such and such for such and such
| cycles. And then you have offers and combos, etc to market the
| pods.
|
| Somewhere in some tiny text somewhere, it says you are
| prohibited from using other similar pods.
| azernik wrote:
| Given the cartridge pricing, the machine itself is likely a
| loss leader, or at best sold at low margins.
| egypturnash wrote:
| You would think that, but I've been in the market for one of
| these things and this one looks to be about US$100 above the
| median price. Pay more _and_ become a recurring revenue
| stream, sounds great!
| bonoboTP wrote:
| I noped out when it said internet connected dishwasher.
| mikro2nd wrote:
| Original hacker did say that he's _never_ allowed the thing
| an actual internet connection, though, and it 's still
| working just fine. So clearly the internet connectivity is
| not a hard requirement. I wonder what it _does_ send back to
| the manufacturer, though...
|
| Anybody who owns one up for dumping the contents of their
| dishwasher's conversation with Mom?
| bonoboTP wrote:
| OP still rewarded the company. Through work I'm somewhat
| connected to a big appliance maker and whenever they do the
| big presentations on their Vision For The Future it's all
| IoT. That every little shit in your home from your blender
| to your dishwasher to your drill will be internet connected
| and have software updates and upgrades and tracked
| servicing and tamper proofing and usage statistics and paid
| feature unlocking and upselling and better market
| segmentation etc.
|
| They'll extort our very last penny we can shed and we will
| be happy about it and march into this future willingly.
| qwertox wrote:
| I have mine connected to a wifi power meter and the data is
| logged in InfluxDB and monitored by Grafana, so I get an
| email and XMPP notification when the dishes are done.
|
| Then the same for the washing machine, and there it is super
| useful since the machine isn't inside the apartment, but in
| the washroom, and it is a real problem if I forget the
| clothes.
|
| But doing this with the dishwasher is not useful.
| bonoboTP wrote:
| The last thing I need in my life is yet another source for
| notifications. But I guess we are all different.
| qwertox wrote:
| Honestly it's a blessing if your washing machine let's
| you know that the clothes are ready to be taken out.
| Since I started with this around 4 years ago, I've never
| forgotten the clothes in it. Also, it's 1-3 notifications
| a week.
|
| Then again, I also get notifications multiple times a day
| when the backups of the servers finished successfully or
| failed, so it appears that I'm ok with receiving
| notifications (from machines). Or when devices have
| connected to the wifi.
| exhilaration wrote:
| Wait, you plugged a wifi power meter in your apartment
| building's communal washroom? Don't you get pinged
| everytime anyone finishes a load of laundry?
|
| Also: brilliant hack!
| kumarvvr wrote:
| I think, for this particular machine, the internet connection
| is for sending alerts for when new pods are required.
|
| However, I still remember how scarily fast did TV
| manufacturers go from "the internet is for a richer
| experience" to "all your data are belong to us". And the
| worst part is no one, not even regulators flinched a muscle
| while this data grabbed happened before everyone's eyes.
| bonoboTP wrote:
| Don't forget the damn ads that are all over your
| definitely-not-free "smart" TV.
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| Actual news about hacking! It is interesting that this is in the
| UK ... i'm fairly sure most rents come with a full-sized
| dishwaster when furnished and all properties have the plumbing
| for one. I'm not sure what the market is. Especially that one of
| the main value adds was "no mess" when our dishwashers all accept
| pre-form tablets for detergent.
|
| Anyway, I adore these kinds of blog posts. Tinkering, naughtiness
| and a big dollop of technical knowhow.
| lyptt wrote:
| I've rented many flats and not a single one has had a
| dishwasher. I wish my current flat had one, washing dishes is
| the chore I hate the most.
| KineticLensman wrote:
| > I'm not sure what the market is.
|
| Here's the 2019 data on dishwasher ownership in the UK [0].
| More than 50% of two-adult households have them, rising to 64%
| for two-adult-two-children households. Retired single adult
| households have the lowest percentage (28%)
|
| [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/289337/distribution-
| of-d...
| capableweb wrote:
| > It is interesting that this is in the UK
|
| Not sure where you get that from, "Bob" is made/from Paris,
| France https://daan.tech/en/about-daan-tech/
|
| In Western/South West Europe (Portugal, Spain, France), full-
| sized dishwashers are a bit more uncommon I think, especially
| in single/double room flats in bigger metropolitan areas where
| flat sizes tend to be in the smaller range. As an anecdote,
| I've lived in maybe ~20 places and only two of them had come
| with a dishwasher, only one of them was an apartment.
|
| This is the first time I hear about "Bob" and my current place
| couldn't fit a full-size dishwater but in order to save time
| and water, I might actually get this. The price is a bit high
| for what it is though.
| egypturnash wrote:
| "Bob" is not the only countertop dishwasher that exists; this
| is a solid market segment. It's also worth noting that the
| median price of these things is less than Bob, even before
| you add in the cost of buying a dishwasher with an extra
| corporate revenue stream embedded in it.
| johnchristopher wrote:
| Do you have some suggestions for other brands? I have had
| my fingers on the order button for some weeks but and
| haven't found good reviews of other products yet.
| OJFord wrote:
| Presumably from PS being the primary currency in the readme.
| I think GP means the _hacking_ is from UK, (and contributors)
| rather than the manufacturer of this mental device, which is
| surprising because who in the UK would have one of these when
| 'normal' dishwashers are basically ubiquitous.
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| Yes, I found it strange that anyone in the UK would find
| value in this device enough to ship one... nevermind hack
| the cartridge.
| OJFord wrote:
| Yes I agree. Never heard of these, seems totally bizarre,
| but I suppose I get the appeal (if you didn't know/think
| about the proprietary connection/protocol) if your
| kitchen/scullery wasn't designed with space for a
| dishwasher. But how many properties in the UK can be like
| that? Not very many, I'm sure an estate agent would tell
| you you'd have a hard time selling without 'updating'.
| dopidopHN wrote:
| I don't know about the UK, but Paris provide a large
| number of incredibly tiny apartment without dishwasher
| and the landlord is not open to make the plumbing
| accommodation to setup one. If even possible.
|
| I had to pay it myself once in 2013. It was a sunken cost
| I was ok with given how cutthroat the real estate market
| is and how much I hate to do dishes.
| davewasthere wrote:
| Some UK flats are tiny and can't fit a full-size
| dishwasher.
|
| And as a singleton, you don't often make enough dishes to
| justify a full load either. (although a twin drawer
| dishwasher would work a treat there)
| OJFord wrote:
| I live in a UK flat without a 'full-size' dishwasher. Did
| you see OP though? This isn't about that, my half-width
| one still goes under the counter and takes normal
| tablets.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| If your flat is so small that you can't have a
| dishwasher, do you really want to occupy some (probably
| significant) fraction of your countertop with this thing?
| It looks like it could wash maybe a few plates and cups
| at a time. That would take maybe 2 min to wash by hand in
| the sink. The entire premise of this device seems
| ridiculous to me.
| ectopod wrote:
| Is this a London thing?
|
| I've rented in the UK for decades and I've never had a
| dishwasher or space for one. Friends haven't bothered with
| dishwashers until they had kids, and then they needed to
| create a space and add some plumbing.
|
| Dishwashers in the UK seem like the opposite of ubiquitous.
| Maybe I live in a strange bubble.
| OJFord wrote:
| These counter-top ones? Not that I'm aware of. I have a
| normal (though half-width, but that just makes sense for
| a 1 bed place really) one in London.
|
| Maybe older builds that haven't been updated wouldn't
| have any space for one as you say, without re-jigging
| cupboards, so maybe people do. But then you're losing
| work surface for it..
| dopidopHN wrote:
| My view on the utility of those devices :
|
| I lived in Paris for a while. Large appartement have
| dishwasher, but in single units, it's uncommon.
|
| I remember looking for solution like that for a renter in
| a small place without proper plumbing to accommodate a
| dishwasher.
|
| I also see a market for the so called tiny house folks or
| full time RVer.
|
| I don't find that particular product appealing too much,
| but I would like to see more like that. And I know folks
| around me that would buy one if it's was more open and
| fixable.
| secondcoming wrote:
| Every place I've rented in London had a dishwasher, and
| we're talking 6 places over 15 years
| gambiting wrote:
| I've rented.....8 houses so far, all in North
| East(Newcastle) and every single one of them had a
| dishwasher. I suppose maybe part of it is that I simply
| wouldn't rent a place without a dishwasher ;-)
| detaro wrote:
| presumably "houses" is the key word here?
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| I've rented flats outside london for years, always come
| with a dishwasher. I'm on a high salary though, so it may
| skew my world view of what is "standard"
| gambiting wrote:
| Fair, but in my experience with the UK something like a 2
| bed house is really just an apartment cosplaying as a
| house.
| MatthewWilkes wrote:
| How strange. I've lived in a dozen or so rented properties in
| the UK and only had a dishwasher in one of them.
| amelius wrote:
| Probably the market is students.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| >I'm not sure what the market is.
|
| I assume the target is the tiny home/mobile living market.
| [deleted]
| trotFunky wrote:
| Really great post indeed ! As a small data point, I'm renting a
| 40-50 m2 flat in the UK and only have a washer/dryer. No
| dishwasher and no additional plumbing for one.
| rini17 wrote:
| There are tabletop models which need little extra plumbing.
| ARothfusz wrote:
| I don't understand how refilling for $0.86 per wash is better
| than the $0.67 per wash if you use their cartridges? Or how that
| becomes "75 times cheaper".
| https://github.com/dekuNukem/bob_cassette_rewinder#cost-show...
|
| How does this math make any sense? With that, the
| total cost per wash is: 0.62p + 0.018p = 0.638p, or
| 0.87 US cent! We know from earlier that Bob
| Cassettes costs 48p (67c) per wash. Therefore,
| refilling it yourself is more than 75 times cheaper, resulting in
| a massive 98.7% cost saving compared to buying new!
|
| Huh?
| rgovostes wrote:
| Back in 2006, Verizon was similarly confused over the meaning
| of ".002 cents per kilobyte."
| http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/2006/12/verizon-doesnt-know-...
| 4ad wrote:
| A cent is not a dollar.
| admax88q wrote:
| It's 67 cents vs 0.87 cents. Or $0.67 vs $0.0087
| [deleted]
| suifbwish wrote:
| I bought a detergentless ozone washer this last year. It works
| pretty well most of the time for general washing unless you
| have something really heavy on your clothes like oil
| WalterBright wrote:
| Ha, I thought that was going to be about a VHS head cleaner tape.
| Mine came with super-special head cleaning fluid in a tiny
| bottle. The bottle doesn't last long, and you then have to buy
| another bottle of super-special cleaning fluid at a super-
| expensive price.
|
| One whiff of the cleaning fluid - hmm, this smells like alcohol!
| Alcohol works great in it.
|
| It also reminds me of back in college in the 70s where there were
| many audiophiles in the dorm. They'd buy super-special vinyl
| record cleaning fluid, because nothing but the best for their
| vinyl records. I just used liquid dish detergent, which works
| perfectly.
| boatsie wrote:
| My $1200 7 year old Miele dishwasher stopped working a few months
| ago, with the "Intake/drain" light on red when starting a load.
| Dishwashers during the pandemic were sort of scare due to massive
| home remodeling demand, and the professional repair people would
| have cost $300 just to diagnose, so I went to try to fix it
| myself.
|
| It turns out the water intake valve solenoid was jammed or gummed
| up somehow, as applying 120V to it directly had no effect. I went
| to find an OE replacement online only to find that they are $580,
| sold by only 2 places, and sold out. You need to be a certified
| Miele technician to buy them.
|
| Given I knew the specifications from the model number and the
| printing on the solenoid itself wrt voltage and flow rate, I
| bought the cheapest replacement I could find on Amazon, spliced
| the wires into the existing harness and boom, it worked
| perfectly.
|
| One thing I didn't understand was why there were so many
| different inlet valves that all did the same thing. There were
| 120V AC and 12V DC versions but other than that the only
| difference was the water connector/dongle/bracket. It seemed
| absurd there would be so many but the reality is that actual
| solenoid is super generic and should only cost $20 and should be
| made to fit them all. Of course nobody really repairs things
| these days but I think this is the reason why. Even when the part
| could easily be standardized and replaced/repaired like a light
| bulb, companies want you to buy a whole new one.
| imglorp wrote:
| Similar experience with a Miele. Inside it's about 4x more
| complicated than an American model: far more engineering around
| sensors and actuators and quality, while the American ones are
| designed with short lifetime and manufacturing costs as goals.
| Fortunately it came with a circuit diagram which made it easy
| to find a bad relay which had a generic replacement. Back in
| business for more years.
|
| ps. Just remembered, that Miele also had a diagnostic/debug
| mode to tell you what system was faulting. Try that with your
| shitty builder's grade Whirlpool.
| kirse wrote:
| The thing is, all of it is garbage compared to appliances
| from 20 yrs ago before mfgr's started designing everything to
| planned obsolescence and IoT. American GE at least has an
| extensive parts network in country, while if your LG/Samsung
| breaks at this point you are basically SOL. On top of that
| the COVID-19 supply shock issues have exacerbated this
| situation.
| Causality1 wrote:
| Is lasting twice as long really a convenience if the repair
| costs ten times as much? I've always preferred simpler
| appliances that are easy to work on.
| kenned3 wrote:
| Who even keeps them this long? after a few years they start
| to get gross inside and not work as well.. time to replace
| them and get a brand new one...
| sokoloff wrote:
| It would never occur to me to discard a working
| dishwasher at 15 years, let alone "after a few years".
|
| I clean the filter about every other month and that's
| largely it. They sell a dishwasher cleaner that you run
| though a cycle. I've bought one but haven't seen the need
| to use it yet. Stainless interior looks brand new to me
| at around 7 years of use.
| Symbiote wrote:
| I noticed my 5 year old dishwasher was a bit dirty
| inside. Rather than throwing it away and buying a new
| one, I cleaned it with a cloth and some general kitchen
| cleaning detergent.
|
| I then cleaned it with the recommended cleaning chemical
| and cleaning cycle.
|
| It seems as good as new, to me.
| imglorp wrote:
| Is 10x repair cost right? Parts maybe 2x-5xish? For labor,
| I think it's the same "appliance repair" network as the
| others, so whatever that rate is, trip fee plus hourly.
| Causality1 wrote:
| Well the original poster said his Miele intake valve
| solenoid was $580 OEM. The one from Whirlpool is $40.
| kevingadd wrote:
| It sounded like it was $580 through unauthorized
| channels, and an authorized service technician would
| probably get them at cost.
|
| The fact that the GP was able to find and substitute an
| equivalent part for cheaper means that the $580 had to be
| including the price of Something Else, and the fact that
| it was for sale in _two_ different places means it wasn
| 't just Miele.
| kenned3 wrote:
| i always see this as a form of stockholm syndrome.
|
| My excesivly expensive and needlessly complex appliance is
| better then your cheaper and more common model becaues of a
| bunch of features no one cares about?
|
| Can anyone access the Miele diagnostic board, or does it need
| some special Miele only tech to buy and use? Does the average
| consumer care that it has this function, espeiclaly when it
| is also so much more expensive to repair?
|
| You can get a new base-model dishwasher for what the OP
| priced the replacement part at??
|
| calling another brand "shitty" is just bad, no one said your
| clearly superior miele is shit, but you did to another brand
| for no reason?
|
| I view dishwashers as disposable, after 4-5 years i throw
| them out and get a new one....
| imglorp wrote:
| > Can anyone access the Miele diagnostic board
|
| Yes, it codes on the washer's display. There's a few secret
| key presses to show errors and reset things if you can use
| a search engine, eg
| https://removeandreplace.com/2016/06/30/miele-dishwasher-
| err...
| userbinator wrote:
| If the coil itself hasn't burned out (easy to check with a
| multimeter), a bit of cleaning could be sufficient to fix it.
|
| Indeed a lot of the mechanical parts like valves, pumps, etc.
| will be available online from various places, and I bet you'd
| be able to find the same thing on AliExpress cheaper than
| Amazon.
|
| As for why there are so many variations, it could be a form of
| vendor lock-in (like laptop AC adapters, where the number of
| different output voltages is far greater than the tolerance
| itself), or different companies just chose different OEMs.
| annoyingnoob wrote:
| There is a reason that appliances, or pretty much any product
| these days, do not last.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
| gambiting wrote:
| I honestly 100000% believe that people use this term
| incorrectly almost all the time. Planned obsolescence is when
| something is deliberately made to break quickly so that you
| buy another one.
|
| What is happening here is different - it's a question of "how
| do we make it as cheap as possible and last as long as the
| warranty".
|
| They sound the same but they really aren't. No one is
| designing these devices to break deliberately. But companies
| absolutely are swapping metal cogs for plastic ones because a
| plastic cog won't break during the warranty period and that's
| what matters.
| petra wrote:
| >> What is happening here is different - it's a question of
| "how do we make it as cheap as possible and last as long as
| the warranty".
|
| They are choosing to ask this question.
|
| But it's possible to ask other questions.
|
| Let's take the example of the Gigabyte "Ultra Durable"
| mothers.
|
| It's a motherboard series with some improved parts with a
| focus on reliability. And they are relatively cheap parts.
| And supposedly the really increase the reliability of this
| motherboard.
|
| And they've built an affordable brand around it.
|
| And people like it.
| hellbannedguy wrote:
| I would agree with you, excpet for these points.
|
| 1. They don't want consumers, or third party repairs,
| seeing Factory Repair Information. (They pick, and choose
| which appliance repair shops get the information, and it's
| tied to sales. Try finding a independant repair shop these
| days?)
|
| 2. They usually don't sell parts out side of warranty. When
| they do, they are marked up very high. (If enough models
| were sold, the part might have a genetic equivelant.)
|
| 3. It seems like they make repair just difficult enough, so
| people just buy new again? I have a family member who
| admits Bosh appliances are overpriced, and have short
| lives. She still buys the brand? I believe Bosh
| psychologists know why?
|
| 4. Right now I have two Bosh appliances on life support. I
| fool around with electronic repairs so I have them kinda
| working. If you get an E13 error on a Bush Washer, it's
| usually the drain pump. In order to open the door, you need
| to shopvac the water from the drain hose.
|
| 5. I've noticed the weak spot on Bosh appliances is the
| computer, and I get it. It's not the best enviornment for
| electronics. Make the computer boards similar to vechicle
| boards. It's pretty rare for a vechicle's computer to fail.
| Meaning they are built for a nasty environment.
| Stratoscope wrote:
| Sometimes there is a good reason to use a more breakable
| plastic part. Baratza coffee grinders are sturdy and well-
| designed, but there is a plastic gear in the power chain
| between the motor and the burrs.
|
| That gear isn't plastic because it's cheaper than a metal
| gear, it is a sacrificial part.
|
| Suppose you get some coffee beans with a rock in them. The
| burrs seize up because they can't grind the rock, and you
| don't notice it in time to cut the power.
|
| Imagine that every part in the power chain is as sturdy as
| the motor and the burrs. The motor may burn out, or else it
| manages to force the burrs to turn, ruining them.
|
| Now you have to replace either the expensive motor or the
| expensive burrs.
|
| Instead, the plastic gear fails, saving the motor and
| burrs. This gear is cheap and easy to replace. (Baratza may
| send you one for free, even if the machine is out of
| warranty. Their customer service is second to none.)
|
| So there are some cases where a breakable plastic part can
| avoid damaging or ruining the more expensive parts.
|
| Of course one could imagine other ways of solving the
| "grinding a rock" problem. Maybe some kind of sensor to
| turn off the motor if it seizes up? But that would increase
| the cost of the grinder, and who knows if it may have other
| failure modes. Since this is such a rare situation, the
| sacrificial plastic gear is a simple and effective
| solution.
| arendtio wrote:
| I think even if the motivations can have different origins,
| they _can_ lead to the exact same thought process and
| product.
|
| So yes, strictly speaking they are not the same and they
| can lead to different outcomes, but I am not sure how much
| of a difference it makes in terms of real world results.
| Sure, it depends on the cost structure of the product and a
| few other factors, but in the end many products will just
| break right after the warranty period.
| qubidt wrote:
| What really is the difference? If you know a plastic cog
| has a 90% chance of breaking after 6 months you're
| effectively planning on it breaking. You're basically
| arguing that _intent_ matters more than the effect of
| creating disposable products.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| Yes that's the entire point of `planned` obsolescence.
| The word itself quite clearly signifies a requirement for
| intent to be there. If you make your product as cheaply
| as possible and because of this it does not last long
| does not mean it's planned obsolescence. It's just a
| cheap product.
| qubidt wrote:
| My point is in *either* case you're _planning_ on it
| breaking .
| gambiting wrote:
| Not really. You can buy a hammer made out of metal, or a
| plastic one for half price. The plastic one will break
| long before the metal one would. Is the manufacturer
| "planning" for breakage? Or it is just a side effect of
| the product being cheaper?
|
| Real planned obscolescence is making software that
| requires online authentication and then switching off the
| auth servers 3 years in so that the customers have to buy
| a new version. That's a deliberate action.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| No. A cheaper product may be more durable due to less
| complexity.
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| Not true, those things are deliberately designed to blow as
| soon as possible after warranty expires. Open any device,
| look for the capacitors near the energy supply.
|
| Those do not like heat, and if you model the heat
| correctly, you fit the bell curve of expiration exactly
| after the 2-3 years after the warranty expires.
|
| If you improve the cooling of the area, most devices
| lifetime can be doubled. I always wondered why no repair
| shop takes advantage of this, by offering a doubled
| warranty, for defusing planned obsolescence ahead of time.
| extrapickles wrote:
| It can be hard to move the capacitors without having to
| redesign the entire power supply, as increasing the
| distance will increase the inductance. Increased
| inductance will make most power supplies less stable. One
| thing I have done in the past when I haven't seen any
| ceramic capacitors on the output side, on switching power
| supplies, is to solder a surface mount ceramic capacitor
| under the electrolytic output capacitor to reduce the
| ripple it sees, which will reduce the amount of heat
| generated internally.
|
| An easier thing to do is remove the heat better. This can
| be done by making sure that the intake air first cools
| the capacitors (outside air->caps->transistors). Since
| most power supplies these days are shoved into a plastic
| box with no venting, it can be easy to add a few vent
| holes and a small fan. If you do this, make sure that all
| of the capacitors are discharged before handling as not
| all power supplies have bleeder resistors to make sure
| the capacitors self-discharge in a reasonable time
| period.
| sandermvanvliet wrote:
| A few weeks ago my Philips coffee machine broke down. It just
| stopped when I pressed the button for a coffee and went into
| error mode.
|
| It turned out that despite my google-fu there isn't a published
| repair manual to be found, Philips does not offer replacement
| parts anywhere oh and actually it's a rebranded machine from
| Saeco...
|
| So I just started taking it apart as the warranty had expired
| anyway. Took a bit of doing but ultimately found out that the
| motor for the bean grinder was broken.
|
| With some luck by typing in some numbers printed on it I
| managed to find a place that sells them. With that it was a
| fairly easy fix that cost me 40 euros and an hour or three
| instead of 300+ for a new machine.
|
| Also there is sweet satisfaction form having fixed a thing
| tda wrote:
| I recently replaced the pump in my espresso machine. Turns
| out a lot (maybe all?) have the same solenoid pump and they
| are not expensive at about EUR25. Also found out my "Solis"
| machine is sold as Breville in the US.
| praseodym wrote:
| Saeco is a Philips brand, no funny rebranding business going
| on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saeco
| aigoochamna wrote:
| Is anyone else bothered by tossing chemicals all over your
| dishes? I imagine this wouldn't work or be feasible with a more
| health conscious detergent.
| ac29 wrote:
| No? Water is a "chemical". The contents of your digestive tract
| would probably sound scary to most people as well (hydrochloric
| acid in the stomach, chenodeoxycholic acid in the intestine,
| among others).
| chiph wrote:
| Not really. The surfactants/detergents get removed during the
| rinse cycle. The concentrations are also relatively low.
| Dishwashers often have a "rinse only" cycle so if this is a
| concern for you, run one of those after the main cycle.
|
| Running a second rinse cycle will still put you ahead so far as
| water consumption, because dishwashers use much less water than
| hand-washing.
| kalleboo wrote:
| Do you just wash your dishes with hot water and no kind of soap
| or detergent?
| kumarvvr wrote:
| Tossing water soluble chemicals over dishes in a hot water jet,
| and in a machine that rinses with normal water afterwards.
|
| I wouldn't worry too much about it. I do rinse my dishes with
| cold water before use after I take them out of the washer
| though.
| thathndude wrote:
| The ROI for the effort probably wasn't that great. But I can
| respect the obsession for the hack all the same. Sometimes it's
| not about the dollars and cents, and if you let it be a hobby
| versus work that helps make it worth it.
| ac29 wrote:
| They calculated a savings of over $200/year.
| Dah00n wrote:
| Great post! But so many poor posts about dishwashers in the
| thread. Ask anyone who services dishwashers (well outside the US
| at least) and they'll tell you two things:
|
| 1) Don't rinse first but if you do only use _cold_ water. I have
| no idea why on earth dishwashers are connected to hot water in
| the US as this will make the first rinse work very poorly indeed.
| It is supposed to be cold to removed starches and dairy
| products...
|
| 2) Tabs are a no go but if you insist it should be soap only (not
| those 3-in-1 etc.) and should be broken in half. It will gunk up
| the machine in the long run otherwise.
|
| I'd bet that dishwashers would need to be serviced or replaced
| half as often on average if everyone did this.
| pitaj wrote:
| My dishwasher manual says to run the sink until water is hot
| before starting the dishwasher.
|
| Seems to disagree with #1
| INTPenis wrote:
| Where? The US? OP is right about the cold water, here in
| Sweden dishwashers are only connected to cold water and often
| say in the manual that they take nothing but cold water.
| apexalpha wrote:
| Really? Why no. 2? Literally anyone I know uses tabs...
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| baybal2 wrote:
| How I call it: "Product as a Service:" you buy something, but
| still don't own it.
| cube2222 wrote:
| Really cool story.
|
| I'd love to see an overview of what devices and software they
| used for the initial connecting to a computer, memory dump and
| memory modify.
| sokoloff wrote:
| It's just an I2C EEPROM. You could read and write it with ~50
| lines of code on an Arduino (or ESP32 or STM Bluepill or any
| other microcontroller dev board).
| technothrasher wrote:
| From the picture, it looks like I2C to SPI (or similar) and
| then SPI to USB virtual serial port. Not sure why they didn't
| just go straight to USB with an I2C-USB adapter. Perhaps they
| didn't have one. Anyway, from there it's just write a quick
| program to read/write the 24C02 through the virtual serial port
| and Bob's your uncle, as it were.
| [deleted]
| bogomipz wrote:
| >"I found a leftover board from pimping my microwave, and quickly
| threw together a contraption to read the EEPROM..."
|
| I found this particular line laugh out loud funny. This whole
| post was a great and a fun read. Cheers.
| jack_riminton wrote:
| This is proper HN content!
|
| I'm quite interested to learn what other household items could be
| replaced by getting commercial equivalents
| stunt wrote:
| I think many product designers try to replicate the success of
| printer cartridges. I try to avoid buying any device that limits
| the input or supply especially those that require a cartridge.
|
| It's a clear method to milk consumers and they can hardly justify
| the benefit in most cases.
|
| I even don't buy the idea of capsule coffee machines. I like
| those that give you the option to use pads, but not those that
| only accept capsule. The environment impact is one reason, but I
| also want the freedom of choosing the supply and the having
| control on the running cost.
| CRConrad wrote:
| > It's a clear method to milk consumers and they can hardly
| justify the benefit in most cases.
|
| For a second there, before I'd fully parsed your sentence, I
| read "milk consumers" as "consumers of milk", and all kind of
| wild ideas started running through my head: "What, they're
| going to implement the cartridge scam with _MILK?!?_ How 's
| that going to work -- the carton is connected to the Internet,
| sends a notification somewhere every time I open it, and I get
| billed according to the number of times, or...?" Then I
| realized "milk" was a verb here. Whew!
|
| OK, so call me paranoid... But still: I think the fact that the
| idea even occurred to me says something not only about me, but
| about the current state of the world.
| jacknews wrote:
| It's great hack, but I bet that internet connection can be used
| to update the firmware.
|
| Perhaps the updated version will use encryption, and it'll be
| like the story in Unauthorized Bread:
|
| https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
| bellyfullofbac wrote:
| I wonder what sort of new user features they'd deliver with a
| firmware update. It's a dishwasher!
|
| Well I suppose they could add useless gimmicks like "Version
| 1.2 can now talk directly to Philips Hue bulbs so the
| dishwasher can blink a lightbulb to notify you"...
| ruslan wrote:
| Fancy iPhone app that informs dishwashing finish by a twitter
| post ?
| hellbannedguy wrote:
| I usually buy Dawn dish soap. It really works well. A machinist
| friend of mine said they use it as a degreaser at work.
|
| A few weeks ago while standing ten deep in Safeway, I read the
| label.
|
| Right on front, they listed at least 11 ingredients. Nothing
| looked outrageous, but I thought about all the times I didn't
| rinse that well.
|
| I now stoped using it on my dishes.
|
| I think the lawyers told them to list the ingredients in bold
| print?
|
| Anyhoo--I now rinse much better than before, and on the lookout
| for just plain soap.
| nimish wrote:
| You would want any good soap to be a degreaser. That's the
| whole point.
| everyone wrote:
| I love people hacking DRM shit like this as much as I hate DRM.
| It is so nice to see.
|
| Sometimes it seems like the world has gone mad. Then you see
| something like this and realise, no, some other people out there
| are logical too.
| SergeAx wrote:
| That Bob is actually a nice piece of tech, well thought off. A
| bit pricey, though. I like that ultraviolet disinfects option.
|
| I am currently living alone, so my 2/3 size (60cm wide)
| dishwasher stays for days in rinse/wait mode, until it gets close
| to full to do an actual washing. It is not very good for
| tableware.
|
| A friend of mine got a cheap chinese countertop dishwasher with
| form-factor of Bob, it is not that fancy, but still got color
| LEDs inside) She is totally happy with it, except small bits like
| draining used water into bucket with a hose. I can see Bob's
| designers didn't solve that too.
| leetrout wrote:
| > Over a year of daily washes, it would have cost PS174 ($242) in
| Bob cassettes alone! Imagine paying that much recurring cost for
| a dishwasher!
|
| We pay at least half of that depending on store prices and
| whether or not we use name brand Cascade and Jet Dry.
| deanclatworthy wrote:
| Yep. I purchased some new tablets yesterday (I'd say the most
| popular ones available) and they were abou 0.12c (EUR) per
| tablet. So assuming usage every day of the year (not uncommon
| in our household) that's EUR43.80 a year.
| BillinghamJ wrote:
| That's presumably for a normally sized dishwasher though?
| jokoon wrote:
| No matter what product you make, it seems that it's impossible to
| earn money without using unethical proprietary practices. I guess
| the brand will argue that the products are "hard to find" and
| that it requires "precise refilling".
|
| And apparently it's even true for such crazy good home products
| that really don't get enough visibility.
|
| I mean it's the first time I discover this washing machine, and I
| want one. It's almost like this hacking article was just designed
| as a disguised advertisement for this washing machine.
| floatrock wrote:
| Selling the base product at a loss to make it up in
| accessory/operational purchases is as old as razors and razor
| blades. My favorite example was I think it was one of the early
| xboxes was being sold for less than the cost of the hardware,
| expecting to make up the difference in licensing on game sales.
| Well, a bunch of college CS labs realized the cost advantage,
| starting buying them in bulk, loaded linux onto them, and used
| them as cheap GPU clusters.
|
| I see this model as a financing hack... the reason you can buy
| an HP printer for like $40 isn't because the hardware costs
| $40, it's because you're effectively paying interest on an
| invisible loan every time you buy inkjet cartridges. The longer
| the manufacturer has you buying cartridges, the bigger return
| on their initial (invisible) loan.
|
| What makes this model shitty to the consumer is there's no cap
| on the "interest". The "loan" ends once the plastic gear
| somewhere deep inside the machine breaks and your customer
| needs to get a new one. Then you're back to competing against
| everyone else offering the same invisible loans on the Best Buy
| shelf. If you're lucky, the consumer doesn't see the stockholm
| syndrome they got themselves into last time and they choose
| your product again because it's familiar.
|
| It's not helpful to call this an "unethical proprietary
| practice". It's more helpful to see this as the useful "low
| teaser rate" financial hack it is, then try to think up new
| financial models that might be a bit more honest (while still
| being sufficiently profitable that it makes business-sense to
| switch).
| Nextgrid wrote:
| It's absolutely possible to earn money by solving a real
| problem. It only becomes impossible when there is no real
| problem to solve and you're intentionally creating a problem.
|
| Dishwashers are a solved problem and have been for decades. If
| you search hard enough you can find lower-profile models that
| solve the "size" problem this current product is trying to
| address.
|
| I'm not sure whether this company is profitable. Most likely
| they aren't and the proprietary cartridge system is a way to
| lock people in for future profits and potentially fishing for
| VC funding or an acquisition by a bigger unethical company
| happy to milk this thing out until it collapses.
|
| Their whole eco-friendly concept (pseudo - because shipping the
| cartridges is anything but) is to appeal to environment freaks
| with more money than common sense and/or fish for eco-related
| awards or government grants (just like Solar Roadways).
| ryandrake wrote:
| I don't think the existence of this product means it's
| impossible to earn money without using unethical proprietary
| practices. It just means that this company is yet another one
| where honestly selling a product one time for the customer's
| money is not enough. The goal, more and more often, is to lock
| the customer into a scheme where they will be milked monthly
| for even more money. It's just too bad these schemes are
| spreading into every product category. And since they are often
| disguised as normal products, it is getting easier and easier
| to accidentally get roped into one of these without realizing
| it.
| ruslan wrote:
| The thing is that it is impossible to compete with a chinese
| made appliance just by selling a product that will last. You
| have to sell it for the price significantly lower in hope to
| return investment by selling locked cartriges. That is where
| such perverted business schemes come from. The more we allow
| chinesium to penetrate to our homes, the less room we left
| for other better products to get developed and find their way
| to the market.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| > Once empty, you can leave it there and add detergents manually.
|
| So you don't have to buy their cassettes. You can just fill it
| like a regular dishwasher.
| sgtnoodle wrote:
| It seems like a third party could design compatible cassettes
| and sell them cheaper, using this article as a reference for
| the EEPROM even.
| kumarvvr wrote:
| I don't understand one thing. Why not have a bottle refill system
| (like those ink tank printers) to have a supply of required
| chemicals?
|
| Sure, you are adding a valve or two, perhaps a couple more
| sensors, but long term cost savings would be enormous.
| qwertox wrote:
| Dishwasher Detergent DRM?
|
| It would have never come into my mind that this is something that
| even exists.
|
| What's with the tabs you put into the little chamber, or which
| I'm just dropping into the cutlery holder since the chamber lid
| broke of. Aren't they compatible or what?
|
| ----
|
| For their website:
|
| Is the use of a Bob cassette mandatory? No. However, to ensure
| optimal washing quality and higher Bob life durability we
| recommend using the Bob cassette.
|
| Can I refill my Bob cassette myself? No.
|
| We use a highly concentrated detergent formula which is not
| publicly available for sale.
|
| So we have set up a way to collect used cassettes, clean them and
| refill them in our factory.
|
| This allows us to offer you an optimal washing quality with a
| zero waste solution!
|
| Seems fair to me.
| environment wrote:
| >dropping into the cutlery holder
|
| Are you aware that if your dishwasher has a pre wash cycle
| before the main wash cycle; then your detergent will be wasted.
| ? A pre wash cycle is common in european dishwashers.
| qwertox wrote:
| Yes, I am aware of this.
|
| Pre-Wash cycle ("Vorspuhlen") is an additional button which
| would need to be in a depressed state for this short cycle to
| be additionally executed and fully exchange the water, but I
| never use it. I think the main cycle also does refresh a
| certain percentage of its water, I'm not sure about it. But
| just using one tab is not enough.
|
| I buy the cheap ones from Aldi which are EUR 0.04 a piece. I
| use the machine 1.5 times a week, so that extra tab is ~
| EUR1.40 a year.
| sokoloff wrote:
| They're oversized for this dishwasher, meaning they'd likely
| not fully dissolve and rinse off.
| qwertox wrote:
| I agree. I didn't read the article after the fact.
|
| But what a great article it is. All the details are in there.
| fomine3 wrote:
| I wonder should it called DRM or just a EEPROM
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Well, it's Digital Restrictions Management, so both.
| barbazoo wrote:
| Great article. I truly wish that companies that base their
| business model on environment destroying convenience would just
| die. But people love their convenience unfortunately.
| lupire wrote:
| At a dollar per wash, in a mini machine, It's cheaper to buy
| plastic dishes and throw away after use then to buy this
| detergent!
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