[HN Gopher] Using a Pager in the 21st Century
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Using a Pager in the 21st Century
        
       Author : todsacerdoti
       Score  : 113 points
       Date   : 2021-05-02 14:23 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (dmitryelj.medium.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (dmitryelj.medium.com)
        
       | minimuffins wrote:
       | I honestly thought this was going to be about alternatives to
       | less and more.
        
       | BlueTemplar wrote:
       | There's the Internet Archive for old pages (though it's not
       | guaranteed to have them of course).
        
         | mike_d wrote:
         | Do you have a link?
        
           | BlueTemplar wrote:
           | A link for what ?
           | 
           | I'm commenting about :
           | 
           | > Alas, many pages and links, created 20 years ago, are now
           | not available -- a well known "link rot" problem occurs when
           | it's going about things made 20 years ago.
        
       | BlueTemplar wrote:
       | I'm guessing that 7-bit means ASCII with no Unicode support ?
       | (What about pagers with non-latin alphabets ?)
        
         | andrewshadura wrote:
         | I'm not sure about 7-bit or 8-bit, but e.g. my NEC pager
         | supported full uppercase ASCII and, in addition, a full set of
         | uppercase Cyrillic. Could have been KOI-7, but then some of the
         | punctuation symbols would be missing, so I reckon it was
         | actually using an 8-bit encoding underneath, e.g. KOI-8.
        
           | BlueTemplar wrote:
           | The article shows "(7 bit/symbol)", but I guess that some
           | pagers were more advanced ?
        
       | zabzonk wrote:
       | > In the 90th
       | 
       | What does that mean?
       | 
       | The only time I've had to use a pager was to support a static
       | data server for an investment bank (partly written by me) which
       | was used by London, Tokyo, HK and NY. Being woken up in the
       | middle of the night I could take (grumpily) but logging on to the
       | bank's systems from home was a thing of Byzantine horror. Anyway,
       | we re-wrote the scripts to page someone who would be at the desk
       | in the appropriate timezone, and all they normally had to do was
       | the classic "turn it off and on again" reboot of the server, or
       | phone one of us in London in extremis.
        
         | vageli wrote:
         | It seems a typo for "In the 90s".
        
         | jedimastert wrote:
         | I'm guess they meant to say "90s"
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | supernova87a wrote:
       | One issue he doesn't talk about is that the sender can never for
       | sure know that the pager received the message.
       | 
       | At one point I was interested to know if there were versions of
       | the paging technology (for some critical application?) that tried
       | to solve this by issuing multiple redundant messages over some
       | amount of time, and the pager ignoring the redundant ones after
       | the 1st one had been received?
       | 
       | Also would be interesting to hear how the many companies "divided
       | up" cities, etc. to create a network.
       | 
       | I remember there used to be some convoluted way of dialing into a
       | pager service and keying the numbers/text that you wanted to be
       | shown on the recipient's screen, but have long forgotten it.
        
         | markrages wrote:
         | > At one point I was interested to know if there were versions
         | of the paging technology (for some critical application?) that
         | tried to solve this by issuing multiple redundant messages over
         | some amount of time, and the pager ignoring the redundant ones
         | after the 1st one had been received?
         | 
         | This is in fact how pagers work.
        
         | croes wrote:
         | "That's it. It's a one-way communication, there is no
         | confirmation sending back, the pager has only the receiver and
         | no transmitter at all." Implies the issue of not knowing if the
         | message is received.
        
         | walshemj wrote:
         | Possibly for older networks - the remining one in the UK does
         | encrypt.
         | 
         | I used to have a basic pager in the 80's when I was on call for
         | BT / Dialcom
        
       | nemo1618 wrote:
       | I looked into getting a pager recently; my plan was to disable my
       | household internet completely for some number of hours per day
       | (by plugging the router into a Christmas tree timer!), keeping
       | the pager around for when my team needs to reach me in an
       | emergency.
       | 
       | I was surprised to find that, as the article mentions, there's
       | basically only one place to buy new pagers -- and they're quite
       | expensive. After thinking about it some more, I realized that
       | what I really wanted was a separate phone number that my team
       | could send SMS messages to. And I didn't even need to build my
       | own pager-like device out of a RasPi or something; I could just
       | buy a cheap flip phone. Total cost for phone and 1000 SMS
       | messages is <$100.
        
         | kingsuper20 wrote:
         | >Total cost for phone and 1000 SMS messages is <$100.
         | 
         | That's a good plan. Tracfone is roughly $10 a month for a
         | smartphone, but what I wish existed was (a) a really cheap
         | device and plan that was SMS-only and (b) people would only use
         | SMS.
         | 
         | I'm damn sick of Fidelity leaving messages for no doubt
         | wondrous investment advice and robocalls for appliance and car
         | warranty programs. That's 99% of the voice calls that I get.
        
           | mcny wrote:
           | Assuming you are in the US or want a US number, I recommend
           | Google Voice and turn on spam protection.
           | 
           | While the SMS integration is going away soon, you will still
           | be able to use (I think) SMS from within the app and while
           | the terms of service disallow automation, my understanding is
           | that is mostly only for outgoing texts (they don't want
           | Google Voice users spamming the world) rather than incoming
           | (I don't see why Google Voice would be against you doing
           | whatever you want with the texts you receive).
           | 
           | I suspect the reason why carriers allow these spam calls and
           | texts is they make money from all calls and texts and have no
           | incentive to fix things.
        
             | peterburkimsher wrote:
             | "While the SMS integration is going away soon" - thank you
             | for the warning!
             | 
             | https://www.androidpolice.com/2021/03/09/google-voice-
             | wont-f...
             | 
             | I use SMS-via-email very frequently, and was rather
             | worried. Thankfully that will stay.
             | 
             | SMS forwarding to a local number's SMS hasn't been possible
             | for me anyway, because my local number is not in the US. At
             | one point I had a setup with Google Calendar forwarding my
             | emails to SMS, but that got shut down in 2019 (to my
             | dismay).
             | 
             | https://www.ghacks.net/2018/11/19/google-removes-sms-
             | notific...
        
           | cheezymoogle wrote:
           | Here's a solution for $60/year, plus the cost of whatever
           | budget Android device you want or have on hand:
           | 
           | A year of unlimited talk/text from Liberty Wireless (a
           | T-Mobile MVNO) costs $60.^1 Then, use call barring/do not
           | disturb to disable incoming calls and USSD codes^2 to turn
           | off call forwarding. You now have a phone number that
           | effectively only supports SMS.
           | 
           | I'd also recommend going with this plan if you are addicted
           | to the Internet and just want a phone, but don't want to pay
           | through the nose for something like the Punkt^3.
           | 
           | As far as only using SMS, sending/forwarding emails through
           | SMS is doable (for now), so if your people's comms can be
           | converted to email, you can use SMS for those as well.
           | 
           | Unfortunately, the naive solution of sending outgoing mail
           | requires MMS (and therefore data), but you can send SMS to a
           | Google Voice number, for example, which can be set up to
           | forward a copy of the message to an email, which can then be
           | used for triggering control events locally. YMMV.
           | 
           | ---
           | 
           | 1 - https://www.ebay.com/itm/174582899616
           | 
           | 2 - https://www.t-mobile.com/support/plans-features/self-
           | service...
           | 
           | 3 - https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/mp02-4g-mobile-phone/
        
         | dqv wrote:
         | I wish someone would make a low powered cellular pager using an
         | e-ink display, but then I realize only 3 people would use it.
         | Pagers seem to be designed to actually wake you up if you get
         | paged. I think the beeping hardware is different from the
         | speaker hardware in cell phones. The vibration in phones
         | nowadays seems weak.
         | 
         | The issues other people are describing with insecurity and lack
         | of ack could also be resolved. The backend server that accepts
         | messages could even support WCTP for backwards compatibility.
        
         | alexjplant wrote:
         | Couldn't you just get a router running some type of *nix
         | (pfSense, DD-WRT, etc) and accomplish this via cron? Maybe
         | perform a dig on whatever API endpoints you still want to talk
         | to (PagerDuty, Slack) then have a set of ACLs that only allows
         | traffic to those on the WAN interface during your "blackout"
         | period?
        
           | throwawayboise wrote:
           | Does this really seem easier than a simple timer?
        
             | xmprt wrote:
             | Probably not easier, but it is free and much more
             | configurable.
        
             | sigg3 wrote:
             | "When you have root, everything is a cron job."
             | 
             | BSOH proverb
        
           | nemo1618 wrote:
           | This is peak Hacker News right here lmao
        
             | nemo1618 wrote:
             | To elaborate on my snark, this doesn't work because:
             | 
             | - Whitelisting my messaging app means I'd still get pinged
             | for non-emergency messages
             | 
             | - Enforcing the block at the software level makes it too
             | easy for me to disable it when the temptation arises. My
             | current setup forces me to walk upstairs, flip the switch,
             | then wait multiple minutes for the router to boot.
             | 
             | It would also take a lot more effort to set up, and time is
             | money!
        
       | jasonpeacock wrote:
       | A very important note: Pages are _plaintext_ , they are not
       | encrypted. Anyone with a radio can receive and decode all pages
       | sent within reception range of that radio.
       | 
       | (which is evident when you read the article, but not called out
       | explicitly)
       | 
       | This is a big deal for any use which involves
       | private/sensitive/confidential data, as it can inform
       | eavesdroppers about current issues, internal tools/architecture,
       | personnel status, etc.
       | 
       | For example, do you want to know when a major cloud company is
       | having an internal outage? Listen for pages which follow their
       | internal notification format. Or maybe you want to know if a
       | critical patient at a hospital is having troubles - listen for
       | pages to their doctor. Does the military command center use
       | pagers (I hope not) - that could be interesting too...
       | 
       | If your employer is using pagers, raise this issue to their
       | security team (and share this great page showing how easy it is
       | to eavesdrop). At the least, the pager messages should be as
       | vague/simple as possible while still being useful. At the
       | best...don't use pagers.
       | 
       | Pagers are already a poor choice - messages are delivered "with
       | best effort" but there's no guaranteed sending, no receipt, no
       | retries. If you're out of range (or signal blocked), the message
       | is lost, and it's up to the sender to implement their own ack &
       | retry system.
       | 
       | (I carried a pager for work for almost 15yrs)
        
         | tyingq wrote:
         | >Pagers are already a poor choice - messages are delivered
         | "with best effort" but there's no guaranteed sending, no
         | receipt, no retries.
         | 
         | They were pretty good towards the end of their reign when 2-way
         | pagers came out. We were able to easily implement something
         | where the system would keep paging you until you responded with
         | an "I've got it" ack or a "Hand it off to the secondary"
         | response, both of them an easy pick-list item.
        
         | dmd wrote:
         | My employer (a large healthcare company) has been shown over
         | and over that they're broadcasting PHI in the clear over
         | pagers, and that this is bad, and their response every time has
         | been "the paging company assures us it is secure". Evidence
         | doesn't matter, only the word 'secure' in their contract with
         | the paging company does, so it's "not their fault".
        
           | 77pt77 wrote:
           | Worse. If you show that it's trivially insecure, you are now
           | the suspect/perpetrator.
           | 
           | Never break these illusions. Keep your mouth shut.
        
             | WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
             | Even as the dedicated security contact whose job is it to
             | test this shit, you will be looked at as a dickhead for
             | pointing that we just spent 30k on something we can't use.
        
         | mattowen_uk wrote:
         | When did we all become so paranoid?
         | 
         | Pagers used to be used by millions of people, in thousands of
         | companies. 99.999% of the messages sent would have been utterly
         | mundane. Stuff like 'call the office' or 'go to place x'.
         | 
         | Just like our chat platforms of today, the data just isn't that
         | interesting.
         | 
         | Pagers were good for the era they were invented for, and at
         | scale ended up being almost free to operate for the companies
         | that used them.
         | 
         | Encrypting stuff requires CPU grunt that pagers simply did not
         | have, especially when the driver was to have as long battery
         | life as possible.
         | 
         | If anything, I miss that simpler era when we didn't have to
         | assume that everybody in the chain was a bad actor trying steal
         | our information.
        
           | minitoar wrote:
           | Even Caesar encrypted his pages.
        
           | Spooky23 wrote:
           | We didn't assume because of ignorance. Innocence lost.
           | 
           | Plenty of people were listening - there's an archive from
           | 9/11/01 that was released with many of the pages in lower
           | Manhattan that day.
           | 
           | Police routinely monitored this stuff, and it's reputed that
           | PIs, ambulance chasing attorneys, etc did the same. Was it
           | relevant/meaningful to when my mom was going to pick me up
           | from work at the mall was a page? Probably not.
        
           | klyrs wrote:
           | > When did we all become so paranoid?
           | 
           | One industry that makes extensive use of pagers is health
           | care. Frequently, personal and identifying information (PII)
           | is transmitted over pages. By all rights, this is a violation
           | of privacy laws (e.g. HIPAA).
           | 
           | Why does a desire for privacy constitute paranoia?
           | 
           | Pagers aren't only a technology of yesteryear -- they're
           | still in use by millions of hospital staff. Despite the
           | availability of cheap & easy strong crypto today, the
           | technology is still stuck in the past. I'd wonder why, but
           | upgrading infrastructure is expensive and it will probably
           | take a class-action suit to make continued privacy violations
           | more expensive than upgrades.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | mikecsh wrote:
             | >> I'd wonder why
             | 
             | I'm a doctor, and whilst I despise carrying a pager it does
             | have some benefits over more modern alternatives in some
             | scenarios.
             | 
             | Mobile (cell) reception in hospitals is generally very poor
             | and wifi connectivity is also generally poor. Trying to
             | rely on either of those to deliver _critical_ communication
             | (e.g. bleeps to the crash team to respond to a cardiac
             | arrest) is more unreliable than the hospital blasting a
             | simple radio signal that any pagers within a few mile
             | radius will always receive and decode appropriately.
             | 
             | For less critical communications (e.g. where you might
             | bleep someone to contact them to a refer a patient to their
             | specialty) there is a (slow) move towards messaging apps or
             | email. These solutions do not yet have the immediacy and
             | reliability of a simple pager for critical applications.
        
               | nataz wrote:
               | I'm curious about the use of pagers in healthcare. I work
               | in an industry that would love to have pagers for on call
               | events, but service has proven unreliable (especially
               | indoors) unless you build out your own dedicated wireless
               | infrastructure for every building you are working in.
               | 
               | We have alternative secure voice/data communication, but
               | they tend to either be bulky or have strict storage and
               | carry restrictions.
               | 
               | Would love a small reliable pager system to carry on our
               | person that would simply let us know to check in.
               | 
               | All of the pager architecture in the US seems to have
               | disappeared in the marketplace.
        
               | Fogest wrote:
               | I'm curious what personal health information would be
               | transmitted via a pager anyway? I assume a doctor would
               | only need to know a room number and maybe code or chief
               | complaint in the page?
               | 
               | I see other commenters mentioning some PHI is being
               | shared via pagers and I am unclear what that may be ?
        
               | mikecsh wrote:
               | In my experience (UK) there is no personal information
               | transmitted. There are two main types of bleeps:
               | 
               | 1. Sending the number of a telephone extension you want
               | the recipient of the bleep to call. For example, if I
               | need a cardiology opinion, I will bleep the cardiologist
               | with a telephone extension and wait for them to
               | (hopefully) call back while I am still but he phone and
               | before it is called by anyone else. This data is not
               | sensitive. These are the types of bleeps which are being
               | replaced slowly by asynchronous communication via apps
               | 
               | 2. Emergency bleeps which are designed to alert a
               | specific group of people on the arrest team to respond to
               | an emergency. These usually work quite differently.
               | Instead of 1:1 they are 1:many and usually carry a
               | different alert tone, followed by a (generally poor
               | quality) audio alert of the operator saying something
               | like "paediatric cardiac arrest inbound to ED, ETA, 5
               | minutes". Again these carry no sensitive data.
        
               | Fogest wrote:
               | Yeah from what I have heard from Canadian based doctors
               | the pagers are used for almost identically the same as
               | what you described for the UK.
        
               | detaro wrote:
               | here's an article with examples:
               | https://www.kansascity.com/news/business/health-
               | care/article...
               | 
               | basically, they broadcast patient name, initial diagnosis
               | etc
        
               | Fogest wrote:
               | Weird, as the other commenter mentioned their's in the UK
               | don't have patient information in them. In fact the
               | medical professional I know in Canada have pagers that
               | give essentially the same information about the UK
               | commenters. It's either an extension to call, or for a
               | code.
               | 
               | Maybe countries like the UK and Canada are more strict
               | about personal health information and have kept personal
               | info out of pagers? I know working in healthcare systems
               | in Canada I would get in trouble even if I used a medical
               | software to look myself up in it.
        
               | detaro wrote:
               | Here's a Canada example (apparently patient transport
               | coordination, fixed after media attention):
               | https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/pager-systems-used-in-
               | healthca...
        
               | Fogest wrote:
               | Ah, interesting. The only people I've actually talked to
               | before about the pagers were from Ontario and the
               | healthcare is mostly managed at the provincial level. So
               | not sure if this was a problem in Ontario or not. I am
               | sure at some point all the hospitals were doing this and
               | eventually switched over to the new way that doesn't do
               | this.
               | 
               | However being a 911 dispatcher for the EMS system here I
               | can say that our radios are not encrypted and can be
               | listened to online by anyone. We mention addresses, chief
               | complaints, and anything else that may be relevant for
               | the paramedics. Patient names would not be given over
               | radios nor would other private info like if the building
               | has an access code. Anything that is private like that is
               | indicated to the paramedics by saying something like
               | "call for access code". Then they call the landline and
               | get the info that way.
               | 
               | In my opinion though, knowing addresses and medical
               | conditions going on can still be a bit sensitive in
               | nature. The police here recently switched to encrypted
               | radios. It was nice sometimes to listen to the scanner,
               | but at the same time it's understandable why it's less
               | than ideal having open radios.
        
               | klyrs wrote:
               | If you reread me, you'll find my "why" isn't "why use
               | pagers", it's "why don't pagers implement even basic
               | crypto"
        
               | mikecsh wrote:
               | Ah yes - sorry, I read that too quickly. The answer to
               | that (at least limited to my experience of pagers in many
               | UK hospitals) is that they don't carry any sensitive data
               | at all.
               | 
               | There are a lot of other issues with them though. There
               | are few companies supplying them so they are actually
               | very expensive. Consequently in our publicly funded
               | health service they are not replaced often and many are
               | in a poor state with batteries held in by tape etc.
               | 
               | The main issues from perspective as a user is the
               | synchronous model of communication that they enforce.
               | Unless something is an emergency, it's an unnecessarily
               | disruptive workflow.
               | 
               | There are usually a limited number of phones on a ward,
               | which are usually very busy lines. Using pagers for
               | routine communication means:
               | 
               | 1. Physically move myself to a location with a phone 2.
               | Wait for phone to be free 3. Call a number to send the
               | bleep 4. Wait for a response (bearing in mind the
               | recipient needs to be free, move to a phone, wait for
               | that phone to be free, and call back) 5. Guard the phone
               | from others using it until I receive the call 6. Hope
               | that no one else calls the phone in the meantime
               | 
               | Bearing in mind that everyone is always busy in hospital
               | this is a huge source of frustration and wasted time,
               | hence the move towards secure messaging apps for these
               | scenarios. Unfortunately these are mostly being built as
               | silos rather than interoperable communication networks.
               | 
               | As mentioned above, for actually alerting a group of
               | people to an emergency when you need an immediate
               | response, pagers are still hard to beat.
        
       | calvinmorrison wrote:
       | I use a pager. AMA
        
         | seumars wrote:
         | As an add-on to your smartphone? I like the idea of using a
         | pager, not for the sake of romanticizing old tech, but to
         | reduce the mental overload of being constantly online.
        
           | calvinmorrison wrote:
           | Yes. I got it two years ago since I hate my phone and having
           | to always worry its charged etc. Pager takes 1 AA that lasts
           | about a month. Its hooked into work to ping me if I need to
           | flip out my laptop. Dead reliable and the service is great.
        
             | paulz_ wrote:
             | I have considered doing this exact thing. Any tips?
             | 
             | One thing I've wondered about is if there is even any pager
             | network coverage where I live. I suspect yes but I don't
             | know of any coverage maps or that sort of thing.
        
               | calvinmorrison wrote:
               | Coverage is good in all us metro areas. directpage has
               | good coverage maps as there's basically only two networks
               | these days
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | reaperducer wrote:
         | How much is a pager and service these days? Who provides the
         | service?
        
           | calvinmorrison wrote:
           | Its ~$10 a month. The pagers are free with my service. I use
           | direct page but I forget which network I am on, never had a
           | problem! with service even out in Amish Country
        
         | cpach wrote:
         | Why? Have you considered replacing it?
         | 
         | Just curious :)
        
           | calvinmorrison wrote:
           | No but I have considered dropping my mobile phone entirely
        
             | cpach wrote:
             | Yeah same here
        
       | dawnerd wrote:
       | Universal Studios Hollywood was using them up to about 7 years
       | ago? Cell service wasn't the best and they hadn't rolled out wifi
       | everywhere so tour guides would have them to keep up on what was
       | going on.
        
       | imwillofficial wrote:
       | This article is great. I use a pager for work, as it's the only
       | device allowed in some sensitive areas. When it get paged while
       | I'm out and about I get the strangest looks, like I'm some sort
       | of time traveler.
        
         | chrisandchris wrote:
         | In Switzerland some voluntary emergency services (like
         | firefighters) have pagers because it just works better than
         | phone/sms. However most alsrms then still go out by phone and
         | sms.
        
         | wheybags wrote:
         | Does it work while you're out and about? My understanding was
         | they were generally limited to a small range, like the area
         | inside and near a major hospital.
        
           | dm319 wrote:
           | I just looked this up for the UK, and noticed that there is
           | still a single national paging network. I use pager at work,
           | but, as you say, the network is limited to the site.
        
           | mattowen_uk wrote:
           | Back in the day many countries had nationwide paging
           | networks. Nowhere was safe from getting a page.
           | 
           | You couldnt just use the 'I had no signal' excuse.
           | 
           | There wasn't cross country roaming for pagers though, I don't
           | think.
        
             | reaperducer wrote:
             | There was in the United States. But it was pretty
             | expensive.
             | 
             | Pagers hung in for a long time because they had far better
             | coverage than cell phones. I don't know if that's still the
             | case.
        
           | dlgeek wrote:
           | Not at all. There are a some very large pager networks in the
           | US. As a bonus, since the messages are so simple, they have
           | better penetration in a given area than GSM would. (I've had
           | my pager go off in a deep parking garage for example).
           | 
           | Ex, here are the coverage maps for SPOK who bought out USA
           | Mobility: https://www.spok.com/solutions/paging-
           | services/wide-area-pag...
        
             | justusthane wrote:
             | The only problem is there's no indication on the pager
             | whether or not you're in range, and no way to know whether
             | you missed a page due to being out of range.
             | 
             | At the same time, the reason they're still used is there's
             | no good modern alternative in a lot of ways (battery life,
             | range).
             | 
             | Troubleshooting paging issues is one thing I do not miss
             | from my time in healthcare I.T.
        
               | reaperducer wrote:
               | _The only problem is there's no indication on the pager
               | whether or not you're in range_
               | 
               | The pager I had in 2003 has a signal strength indicator
               | just like a cell phone so you know if you are in range.
               | 
               | The pager was also able to let the network know if the
               | message was received. If it didn't, the network would
               | keep retrying until it got an ACK.
        
             | owenversteeg wrote:
             | Is the coverage really that bad? Looking at that map it
             | seems like you're really only covered inside major cities.
             | Even somewhere like Connecticut seems to have most of the
             | state with zero coverage!
        
       | c22 wrote:
       | I always thought it'd be cool if someone put a pager chipset into
       | my smart phone so I could configure it to receive a page whenever
       | someone was calling me and only connect to the cellular network
       | if I wanted to take the call.
        
       | samgranieri wrote:
       | My dad is a doctor and has had pagers the entire time, from the
       | bulky brick one you can see Dr. Beeper using in Caddyshack to the
       | ones you'd see in this article.
       | 
       | Outside of work, I've actually had to page him a few times: my
       | family has season tickets for Northwestern Wildcats football
       | games, and he has the tickets. If I arrive to the game late, I'd
       | need to call or page him to come down and give me the tickets.
       | It's not a problem when the opponent is a small school that
       | doesn't travel well, but when a school like Nebraska or Ohio
       | State show up in Evanston, cell service goes to shit (imagine
       | having 47000 people in a suburban neighborhood).
       | 
       | I page him and it works like a charm.
        
       | bminusl wrote:
       | I would like to use a pager-like device as a grocery shopping
       | list. But a pager isn't quite what I'm looking for (I think).
       | 
       | Basically, I need a small device that can fit in a pocket, with a
       | long battery life, a simple display, and a few buttons. Bonus
       | points if it's cheap and easily hackable.
       | 
       | What are the options?
        
         | dm319 wrote:
         | I would love for a modern low-power LCD/e-ink palmtop, but
         | sadly I haven't seen the likes of it since the old Psions.
        
         | kator wrote:
         | Palm Pilot? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PalmPilot
        
           | bminusl wrote:
           | Not exactly, I'm looking for something more minimalist.
        
         | mattowen_uk wrote:
         | Find an old palm pilot on eBay with a refurbished battery.
         | Instant digital notebook for the cost of a few dollars/pounds.
        
           | fencepost wrote:
           | Might as well go for one of the even older models that ran on
           | 2xAAA. Not like you're losing compatibility with modern
           | hardware.
        
         | dudul wrote:
         | How about a small notepad made of paper? What would be the
         | benefit of a "pager-like device" over it?
        
           | bminusl wrote:
           | > What would be the benefit of a "pager-like device" over it?
           | 
           | - Adding items remotely
           | 
           | - Automatic item sorting
           | 
           | - Pre-made lists
        
             | elliekelly wrote:
             | What about a raspberry pi + thermal receipt printer? You
             | could have a way (or several ways) to add items remotely
             | and automatically sort items and then print the list just
             | as you're about to head into the store. And with thermal
             | receipt tape you could mark off that you've got the item in
             | your cart with your fingernail.
        
               | bminusl wrote:
               | Interesting idea. I'll keep that in mind.
        
         | stevewillows wrote:
         | this is my dream! I used to use a Pebble watch for grocery
         | lists, but the display is just too small for a larger list.
         | 
         | It would be fantastic to have something that is basically a
         | half-sized palm pilot (say, 4" tall, 2" wide), eink/memory lcd,
         | and the ability to rotate (not automatically.) There's probably
         | a digital price tag that could work for the screen.
         | 
         | When I was using my Pebbles more often, it was great to be out
         | and never check my phone for anything. Back in the day we could
         | have set responses -- but as the years go on, we lose some
         | functionality. The Rebble project will probably fix this one
         | day.
        
         | zestros wrote:
         | https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/precursor
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | hoka-one-one wrote:
         | Tamagotchi?
        
           | bminusl wrote:
           | Perfection.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | dkersten wrote:
         | If you don't mind a bit of work, you could look into one of the
         | DIY smart watches on hackaday or whatever. Since you don't need
         | a watch form factor, that should give you a little extra room
         | in terms of size or components. I found them a little too bulky
         | as a watch for my taste, but they might work as a pager-like
         | device.
        
           | bminusl wrote:
           | You reminded me of Watchy[1] (which I completely forgot
           | about). It is a good contender.
           | 
           | [1]: https://watchy.sqfmi.com/
        
         | swiley wrote:
         | This sounds exactly like an older palm pilot.
         | 
         | They used ram for persistent storage because the battery life
         | was so long (due to a very slow dragon ball CPU and those dot-
         | matrix displays.)
         | 
         | The palm III was probably one of the best hand-held computers
         | ever made, if there were a way to put a modern modem in it to
         | get texts I would probably use that instead of my phone.
        
           | madengr wrote:
           | I actually had a pager add-on PCB in my Palm Pilot. Worked
           | great.
        
         | caturopath wrote:
         | May I ask why you don't want to use a phone? You don't want to
         | carry/look at it for the other stuff that a phone has?
        
           | bminusl wrote:
           | Phones are generally too bulky for my liking. I prefer to
           | have something simple and light. And I care way less if it's
           | stolen or lost.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | im3w1l wrote:
             | Is pickpocketing still a thing? My perception is that
             | between wallets full of plastic and phones that can be
             | remotely locked, it has almost completely disappeared. I
             | remember being told to be wary in crowded places as a kid,
             | but nowadays I'm very careless and nothing happens.
             | 
             | Bike thefts though, they are a serious issue that I plan my
             | life around.
        
               | jen20 wrote:
               | In 2019, I had my phone and wallet stolen in Barcelona
               | via pickpocketing. I know of someone who had their wallet
               | stolen in the Madrid subway the same way. I've not heard
               | of it recently in the US though.
        
               | caturopath wrote:
               | The wallets full of plastic remark doesn't really apply
               | in Spain, where tons more people carry real amounts of
               | cash.
        
               | caturopath wrote:
               | Note that crime in the US overall has gone wayyyy down
               | since you were likely a kid. We're at Leave It To Beaver
               | levels.
        
               | croes wrote:
               | Overall yes, single states no.
               | https://www.safehome.org/resources/crime-statistics-by-
               | state...
        
               | reaperducer wrote:
               | You should try to find something more .gov to link to for
               | statistics, rather than a PR company that flogs home
               | security systems and devices.
        
               | spiritplumber wrote:
               | And yet a lot of people think that it's gone up because
               | of skewed reporting.
        
               | croes wrote:
               | Depends on the state where you live. If you live in New
               | Mexico it doesn't matter if the crime rate in Mew York
               | goes down. https://www.safehome.org/resources/crime-
               | statistics-by-state...
        
               | benjohnson wrote:
               | If your of an older demographic, that may potentially
               | have a wad of cash, pickpocketing is still very much a
               | problem. Especially in tourist spots.
        
               | walshemj wrote:
               | Oddly the Vatican has a high crime rate because of this
        
         | spaceisballer wrote:
         | I like the idea of the Lightphone 2. E ink display and minimal
         | functionality. Plus it's small and has a long battery life.
        
         | reaperducer wrote:
         | I'm not trying to be a jerk, but have you considered going back
         | to paper?
         | 
         | After unending frustration with Siri and grocery lists, I just
         | went back to paper. It works brilliantly. The "shared list" is
         | my wife texting me things to add to the list, and I immediately
         | take the piece of paper out of my wallet and write stuff on it.
         | 
         | I've been using phones, computers, PDA's, and electronic
         | organizers for grocery lists for decades, and none have worked
         | as well, or been as useful as a piece of folded paper.
        
           | fencepost wrote:
           | The return of the "Hipster PDA" (speaking as one who did this
           | for a few years).
           | 
           | I believe see also "bullet journal."
        
           | bminusl wrote:
           | I have always used paper.
           | 
           | But there are some things I would like to improve, see [1].
           | 
           | [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27016068
        
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