[HN Gopher] Request for comments regarding topics to be discusse... ___________________________________________________________________ Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop Author : sincerely Score : 468 points Date : 2021-05-02 17:29 UTC (5 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.regulations.gov) (TXT) w3m dump (www.regulations.gov) | einpoklum wrote: | I can offer them some comments about dark patterns in government | regulation. | harrybr wrote: | Please don't just vent here - submit your comments to the FTC | website! | bogwog wrote: | A common one is fake consent popups for system notifications. | | Websites need to ask for consent before sending system | notifications via the Notifications API. If a user declines, that | website is blocked from asking again (for obvious reasons) | | But many websites cheat this by showing a fake consent popup | designed to mimic what the browser would show. If a user clicks | "Decline" on the fake popup, the website won't show the real one | to avoid being blocked. So the next time you visit the site, | they'll be able to show you that popup again as many times as | they want. | | If a user finally clicks "Accept" on the fake popup (out of | frustration probably) then they'll show the real popup. To most | people, seeing two popups might seem like a glitch, and will just | mindlessly click "Accept" twice. | | The only way to circumvent this is to click "Accept" on the fake | popup, and then click "Decline" on the real one. 99% of people | aren't going to know how to do that. | | ...I'd post this myself as a comment, but I don't like that it's | asking for so much personal information (full name, email, state, | city, phone, etc) | bmuon wrote: | Is this really a dark pattern? There's tons of truly deceptive | practices but this is one where websites are plainly asking for | permissions. | tmpz22 wrote: | Yes - they're circumventing the intent of the permissions | restrictions implementation to the clear detriment of the | user. | bmuon wrote: | Highly debatable. In fact, trying to classify it as a dark | pattern may derail the very valid discussion that the FTC | is trying to have. There are significantly worse patterns | out there. See [1]. | | What the push notification pattern is, is annoying. And it | is specially annoying because of a prevalence of | confirmation dialogs all over the Web with GDPR/CCPA, paid | subscriptions, etc. But does it cause harm or monetary loss | as the sneak into basket pattern? Or the opt-out | unnecessary "insurance" that airlines continue to put in | the checkout flow? | | We do a disservice to ourselves littering the web with | these constant asks. But it's not what needs regulation and | enforcement. | | [1] https://www.darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern | ryandrake wrote: | The pattern tries to avoid an outcome desired by the | user: permanently revoking consent for some permission. | Only asking when you are confident the answer is Yes goes | against the intent of the platform functionality, and I'd | argue that's a major dark pattern. | | Similar to how apps used to ask "how do you like app?" | And then only prompt to review the app if you responded | favorably. Goes entirely against the app store's intent | to uniformly sample users, and I'm glad Apple at least | has cracked down on this practice. | | Just honestly make a product and stop trying to fool the | user! | reificator wrote: | The browser is designed so that a website gets one chance to | ask for that permission, rather than nag every single time | you visit. | | If it's not a dark pattern to ask again every time you hit | Deny, then why don't they do it again every time you hit | Allow? | ryandrake wrote: | It's a trick to try to take a yes / no choice and sneakily | turn it into a "yes / ask me again later" choice. Silicon | Valley in general seems to have a huge problem with the | idea of user consent and permanently revoking consent. | r_singh wrote: | I was not aware about this but stackoverflow shows me their | consent box (and on every stack exchange site) everyday | coddle-hark wrote: | This was driving me crazy too, turns out that my adblocker | was breaking the consent box. Clicking "Accept" didn't do | anything. | reificator wrote: | The trick there is to use your adblocker to pick the | consent box and hide it, and then edit the custom rule to | apply to every site. | llacb47 wrote: | Which adblocker? | busymom0 wrote: | I am having the same issue too on Mac Safari with | AdGuard. | busymom0 wrote: | App developers do this in their apps too when asking to rate | the app in the App Store. They first show you a fake popup | asking if you are enjoying the app OR want to send feedback. | They will only show you the real iOS popup for reviewing the | app if you tap "Yes" to the enjoying app. | matham wrote: | Thank you! This is something that has been annoying the hell | out of me on instagram using desktop Firefox. | | Every time I login it prompts to show notifications; I always | decline so it shows it again next time I log in. This time I | accepted, but blocked it from within firefox. | | I get it's not a dark pattern because it's clear it's not the | browser asking, but still it's very annoying. | suifbwish wrote: | I found that a lot of those have commonly named elements you | can create rules for in noscript so you never see them. Not | sure if it would effect the dark pattern ones though. | jeremy_wiebe wrote: | This is commonly referred to as a "soft ask." The reasons for | it are not always nefarious. On some platforms you cannot | provide any commentary on why you want to send push | notifications and so the soft ask provides a way to give more | context on the next (real) permission dialog. | | I'm not saying this isn't abused all over, but when used | effectively it can provide the user with more information to | decide if they want to accept or not as well as allow the | website to request it again at a future time possibly for a | different reason. | bogwog wrote: | I'm not referring to "soft asks". The dark pattern is | creating a fake dialog that mimics the real system dialog in | order to mislead, and circumvent a feature designed to | protect users from spam/abuse. | | Telling a user why they're about to get a permissions dialog, | and displaying a real system dialog, is obviously not a dark | pattern. | | They're common as hell, but I can't seem to find a live | example of what I'm talking about right now. | shkkmo wrote: | An informative prompt explaining why permissions are needed | with a single continue button is not a dark pattern. | | If you have a "decline" button that bypasses the browser, | then you are using a dark pattern. | Stratoscope wrote: | I get these all the time on mobile websites, and arrived at the | same solution you did: tap Accept on the fake popup and then | Block on the real consent box. | | I suppose a site could trick me by making their fake popup look | exactly like the real one. But in that case I would tap Block | and be no worse off, other than seeing the same notification | again the next time, at which point I would probably figure out | their trick. | | I thought of explaining this to some friends to help spare them | some needless popups, but decided it was too complicated and | would likely just confuse them. This is not an insult toward my | friends, just a reminder that something that seems simple to | you or me may be very puzzling for most people, no matter how | intelligent they are. | enedil wrote: | The real popup in Chrome and Firefox exceeds the website | frame, so you can easily distinguish it. | la_fayette wrote: | I am convinced, by many real world observations, that the | average joe user cannot distinguish fake html/css/js popups | from OS popups. | rosmax_1337 wrote: | What is the most reasonable way that "we" and people like us on | HN could do to prevent Dark Patterns as they are right now? Maybe | the FTC will prevent some in the future, maybe they won't, I | don't put much hope into it. Lawmaking on the internet right now | is a mess, and GDPR whilst it might have had good intents ended | up being a big mistake imo. (Certainly the whole consent-cookie | thing is a mistake) | | We can all promise not to implement Dark Patterns in the software | we write. But the good old "personal boycott" isn't really | working, and hasn't really been working since forever. If for | example Youtube won't allow you to turn off your screen on a | mobile device, unless you buy premium (turning off the screen is | a hardware feature, not a website feature), then the solution | isn't really to stop using Youtube. There isn't an alternative. | | Man, when I think about this stuff I can get kinda jaded. | Antidotes like youtube-dl, or ublock origin work, but they only | work for "us", and not everyone else who has to live in the Dark | Pattern hellhole that the internet is turning into. I meet people | who have never heard of an adblocker, still in 2021. | | And even if "we" all stop implementing Dark Patterns, there will | be plenty of other cheap hires who will gladly implement the same | features when we refuse to do that kind of stuff. And if you're | in a bad enough spot it would leave you out of work even. What if | there was some kind of union? Like say something called "union of | ethical software", which may more technically be a international | non-profit rather than a union, which does a few different | things: | | 1) Establishes open standards for how things should work, in | regards to "ethical software", rather than say technical | standards. | | 2) Has a donation fund which funds | | A) A small team of lawyers/tech-people, who will on a strategic | basis defend cases where an employee might end up in trouble | refusing to implement features which are in conflict with 1). Not | to primarily save employees, but to primarily scare tech-giants | from going for the "do it or ill fire you stick immediately". | | B) A small team of educators and speakers, who would spend time | creating educational content and essentially political content as | to garner public opinion in favor of all this, the types of | people to appear on say TV during a big case against for example | Google. | | I'm just throwing ideas at the wall here though. Saw another | comment here about living in a off-grid cabin. That sounds very | nice, and better each day. | | ...The ESITF, Ethical Standards for Information Technology | Foundation. Did it have a ring? | chiefofgxbxl wrote: | Windows 10 does not respect the "default browser" setting when | opening web-based content through apps. For example, clicking on | "Help" links or search results from the start menu always opens | in Edge. | | This seems far worse than their IE-bundling issue back in the | day... at least users have a few web browsers to choose from, but | what good is that when user preference is overridden? | Mixtape wrote: | Microsoft adding promotional material for Edge above the search | results for "Google Chrome" in Edge also further reinforces | this. | thrill wrote: | If Microsoft could ensure that the target browser would | properly show the help documentation, then the complaint would | hold more weight. | anonymousab wrote: | If there's documentation that renders correctly in modern | edge but is unusable in Chrome(ium) or Firefox then that | would be useful to see. | | It's a valid concern but I'm fairly certain it's nowhere near | the top reasons that they do this. They have a history of | trying to shove users into Microsoft's unwanted browser | against their (often informed) wishes. | [deleted] | dylan604 wrote: | If Microsoft can't hire people to be able to design a webpage | that renders in all web browsers, then they have fallen much | further than I would have even made fun of them. | thiht wrote: | Doesn't Apple do the same with Safari? On macOS I think Safari | opens up sometimes even though my default browser is Firefox. | Maybe when clicking links in Apple Mails? Not sure. | | It's funny how Apple gets away when doing the same thing or | worse than Windows, yet Windows is always the one getting | criticism. Like how Apple always try to enable Siri after an | update. Or how managing when an update should be done is | incredibly worse on macOS than on Windows. | desert_boi wrote: | Almost certain that macOS opens everything in my default | browser of choice when clicking on a link in AirMail | (Firefox). | thow-01187 wrote: | Google does this even more egregiously with Android - my | default browser is Firefox, but any links from Google News, | Google Assistant and other Google software open in Chrome. | delecti wrote: | There's a setting to change that. | | It shouldn't have to be a separate setting from the overall | default browser, but at least it's relatively easy to change. | smichel17 wrote: | Yep, Samsung camera will only open Samsung gallery, and | will show a "Unable to find application to perform this | action" toast if you uninstall it (via adb, because it | can't be uninstalled via gui). Also it's the only app you | can set to open by double tapping the home button, so you | can't configure another camera application with the same | ease of use. | nitrogen wrote: | I wish Firefox provided two intents (does Android still call | it that?), one for normal browsing and one for private | browsing. Then any app that opens a link doesn't | automatically get your active cookies from your main browser | if you don't want it to. | Osiris wrote: | I use Firefox Focus as my default. It does this. No tabs, | no cookies. | smichel17 wrote: | Settings > Private browsing (under Privacy and security) > | Open links in a private tab | | An alternative is to use Firefox Focus (Firefox Klar on | F-Droid) as your default browser, then its "open in" | feature if you want to make it a permanent session. | pranau wrote: | Apple does this as well on iOS where certain stock apps like | Books always open links in Safari even when you have a | different default browser set. | jozzy-james wrote: | to be fair, there is nothing other than safari on | iOS...despite the window dressing. | lights0123 wrote: | Right, but other browsers have better behaviors to some | people. For example, Safari's behavior of opening links as | new tabs in the foreground is very annoying to me. | jackson1442 wrote: | Not an iOS developer but I wonder if using the default | browser requires using a different intent than the former | behavior of "always open safari" did. Books, to me, seems | like one of the more neglected first-party apps so it | honestly wouldn't surprise me if this is just something | that's sitting in the P4 column. | | Only reason I assume this is all the Google apps on my phone | bring up a sheet when I tap a link asking which browser I | want to use-- with "system default" being one of the options. | | Really there's no excuse for this, it can't be too difficult | to adapt system apps to fall in line with the expectations | for third-party apps. | yawnxyz wrote: | I hate it when Linkedin or Lunchclub does a "connect your | friends!" and you accidentally click a button and it literally | launches spam invites for your entire address book. | | Worst part is that NO ONE has ever called them out for such a | dark pattern, but the pattern forces ppl to send unsolicited | emails to their contacts AND pretends it's meant to be sent by | the person. | | Incredibly devious | robinj6 wrote: | Love that this website requires following a link for every | comment. | ryandrake wrote: | Although not software, gym memberships are notorious for using | all manner of slimy tactics to keep you paying. Online reps can't | do anything, your local gym somehow never has a "manager" around | who can do anything. You can "freeze" your account but then they | can just arbitrarily unfreeze and start charging you again. Very | close to having my CC company issue a charge-back to our local | gym for fraud. Very shady and hopefully these can be made | illegal. | gundmc wrote: | Yes! Cancelling my 24 Hour Fitness membership was a nightmare. | I also found out that the name is not indicative of their 6 AM | to 8 PM hours. Horrible experience all around. | amalcon wrote: | There was a chain of gyms in Boston that famously required you | to go there in person to cancel. When they closed due to COVID, | they continued charging their members. The closure prevented | members from both cancelling and making use of gym services. | | That got shut down pretty quickly, but it's telling that they | even thought they could get away with something so brazen. | bilalq wrote: | A gym I had a membership with wouldn't let me cancel in person | and insisted I do so via registered mail. So incredibly slimy. | lucb1e wrote: | That's one option that always works, and people don't seem to | get that. While it's scummy that you _have_ to do it that way | (that 's obviously bollocks), this would also be the way to | tell them to stop charging you if their customer support | won't pick up, their email server rejects yours as spam, the | web form is broken, that sort of shit (people elsewhere in | the thread mention a million-and-one instances of this, not | realizing that there is another way). Send them a letter and | be done with it. | robinj6 wrote: | Worst dark pattern IMHO these days is the free trial that | requires a credit card and rolls right into subscription, | especially when it defaults to annual and there's an early | cancellation fee. Canceling subscriptions is also a labyrinth | that differs by site. | pizza wrote: | Not sure if this counts but yesterday I saw that _skipping | updates_ is now a Pro feature in Docker Desktop! | mimsee wrote: | Ecommerce sites showing a "27 people are watching this right now" | alongside the product but from source code it turns out to be a | Math.random() | jb1991 wrote: | Booking.com lost a court case over this from what I've heard. | "Only two rooms left!" nonsense. | dylan604 wrote: | Etsy does a "Only 4 items left, but 7 people have it in their | cart" or something similarly worded | zemo wrote: | Etsy users put things in their cart to bookmark them. | | I haven't been there for six years now, but one of the | problems I worked on at Etsy was getting people to stop using | their cart as a bookmarking tool. While I was there I worked | on the functionality to fave an item as well as the | functionality to add items to a List of favorites. There was | another tool called Treasuries for this purpose that we | phased out, so there were at least three systems that Etsy | built to try to help people keep track of items they like | without putting them in their cart. I know when we introduced | Lists, several colleagues and I worked on that functionality | for a few months before it ever saw the light of day. Even | so, users continued to put things in their cart "so they | wouldn't forget them". It was a very frustrating result; this | was the exact behavior we were hoping that Lists would | eliminate. | | It wouldn't surprise me if it's true that the item really is | in that many carts. I would also agree that it's not useful | or accurate information for you, another shopper, since an | Etsy user "having it in their cart" is in many cases not a | very strong signal that they will purchase the item in | question. Inflating the number intentionally would definitely | be a dark pattern. If that number is intentionally inflated | or is known to be inaccurate or fictional, dark pattern for | sure. | | Whether the current functionality qualifies as a dark pattern | or not is a lot harder to judge. Is it poor design? Yes. For | sure. Is it harmful to the user? Again, I think yes. | | Is it a dark pattern if you design something poorly | unintentionally? Does that term measure intent or impact? In | a legal context I would expect the measure to be intent, so | in that context this is probably not a dark pattern, but HN | is not a court of law, so in this context... probably yes? | axiosgunnar wrote: | > Inflating the number intentionally would definitely be a | dark pattern. | | Inflating the number intentionally would be criminal fraud, | plain and simple. | | A dark pattern is making the ,,Delete account" button | smaller and grey while making the ,,No, take me back" | button huge and green. | | Literally lying with the intent of getting money from | somebody is fraud and has nothing to do with dark pattern. | | Btw not attacking you personally, just wanted to clarify | this misconception. | reaperducer wrote: | _users continued to put things in their cart "so they | wouldn't forget them". It was a very frustrating result; | this was the exact behavior we were hoping that Lists would | eliminate._ | | My wife does this, not just to Etsy, but on all kinds of | e-commerce sites. So I apologize on her behalf. | | I suspect that it's related that she's also one of those | people who will never bookmark a web page. Instead, she | keeps a hundred tabs open. I don't understand it. Some | people are just wired that way. | kop316 wrote: | I'm genuinely curious...what does she do when she wants | to buy something then? From what you describe, she would | have to remove all but what she wants, then re add | everything. | TeMPOraL wrote: | Don't apologize. It's a pretty common practice. Some | e-commerce vendors may not like it, because it disturbs | their statistics or marketing shenanigans, but the error | here is on their side - they _assume_ that putting | something in a cart is an intent to purchase. That | assumption is wrong. | | It's obvious why this happens. The shopping cart, as an | e-commerce pattern, _is a bookmarking tool_. You put | stuff there, it stays there while you browse the store | for other stuff. If you step out for an hour and come | back, things you added to the cart are still there. If | you close the tab and open it later, the things are still | there. If the price changes in between, it 's updated. If | an item goes out of stock, it's reflected on the cart | screen. If it quacks and walks like a bookmarking tool, | ... | | The way for the e-commerce sites to stop it is obvious: | put a time limit on the basket. Purge it if the user | leaves it be for more than a couple hours. But for some | reason, nobody seems to do that :). | | As for the browser bookmarks, I also don't use them much | (nor does anybody I know). They map badly to actual use | cases. For short-term storage, tabs are perfect | (especially when the browser saves them between | restarts). For mid-to-long-term storage, you want to save | your links where you can find them on _any_ device, and | often you also want to store them within the service | itself (see also: stars on GitHub - they 're not an | expression of appreciation for the project, they're _just | bookmarks_ ). | dylan604 wrote: | Intention doesn't need to be a part of defining a dark | pattern. It is a dark pattern whether it was intended as | such or not. However, intention could definitely be taken | into account during sentencing/punishment decisions. | orpheansodality wrote: | That one is based on real data (I worked there for a bit), | but I generally agree this pattern is exploitative | birdyrooster wrote: | Is it more or less exploitative than eBay watchers? Why so? | crmd wrote: | It's fun to imagine the implications of dramatically raising | the standard for commercial speech, such that statements which | intend to mislead are prohibited. | jozzy-james wrote: | apply it to physical stores, see how far it goes | jozzy-james wrote: | my point being i did some stuff on 'x' available, hurry now | - and went. and they never had them, but the difference is | that i traded a quantifiable unit (human life expectancy) | vs those online that just annoyed people | sandermvanvliet wrote: | I worked at a large online retailer in NL that got told they | needed to change their delivery promise because that's not a | promise you can actually keep. So it does happen, but | probably not often enough. | pindab0ter wrote: | Which online retailer was that? Happen to have a news item | to link to? | AbortedLaunch wrote: | Coolblue. They violated the advertising code. The verdict | in Dutch is available at https://www.reclamecode.nl/uitsp | raken/uitspraak/huishouden-e... | sandermvanvliet wrote: | Don't have a news article because I learned about it | through internal channels. | | It's the one that does it for the smiles | crmd wrote: | I'm glad to hear that! It also lines up with my anecdotal | experience overseeing a marketing department that Benelux, | German, and Japanese teams were on the opposite end of the | spectrum compared to American, Israeli, and Chinese teams | with respect to "marketing bullshit" practices. | slver wrote: | Rookie mistake. You gotta Math.random() that shit server-side. | airstrike wrote: | As disingenuous as this may be, I feel it's probably not one of | the most harmful examples | dylan604 wrote: | Anything attempting to falesly manipulate someone with FOMO | should be punishable. If not with jail time, then heavy | fines. If not that, they should be forced to do the GoT walk | of shame. | ratww wrote: | When it's using _Math.random()_ , it kinda is. | pishpash wrote: | Should be punished as false advertisement. | chrisin2d wrote: | I expect an outcome similar to what happened between the | European Commission and Booking.com. | | Booking.com pioneered a lot of e-commerce dark patterns like "X | units left" and "Y people viewed this today". | | The EC pushed Booking.com to change its online sales tactics to | be more transparent. | ykat7 wrote: | Link to the European Commission's press release (2019) for | anyone interested: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorne | r/detail/en/ip_19_... | chrischattin wrote: | AirBnB doesn't show what the place actually costs until you get | to the "Reserve" screen. Then the cleaning fee, service fee, | occupancy fees and taxes are added up. I've seen it literally | double the advertised price. | | I've used AirBnB heavily over the past few years and am a huge | fan of the business model in general. But, I view this practice | as borderline unethical. I'm sure it A/B tests well, but it's | super annoying having to make several extra clicks just to see | what you're actually going to pay for the place at checkout. | m-ee wrote: | I've noticed recently that many of the places on Airbnb are | also listed on VRBO, and usually cheaper for some reason. VRBO | also lets you filter by total price from the start. | lazyeye wrote: | The best example of a dark pattern for me is Google's privacy | settings. Such a ridiculously convoluted and unintuitive process. | The polar opposite of everything else they try to do. | rossmohax wrote: | When creating a member account within AWS Organization it asks | for root account email, this address is never validated before | account is created. If you made a typo in that email and it | happen to be on a valid domain you have no access to, then it is | impossible to close that account and support is refusing to do | anyhing, even if you contact them immediately. | mrweasel wrote: | I'm not sure that's a "dark pattern" that's just AWS | incompentence, spiced up with a dash of "no my department" in | customer service. | calrueb wrote: | Push notifications and their subtle ability to form usage habits | (see notification -> open app -> browse feed) is a "Dark Pattern" | that is used all across the consumer app industry. You can tell | how focused a company is on growth and engagement by how many | notifications you get a day (Clubhouse for instance slammed me | with notifications until I shut them off). | andreilys wrote: | Clubhouse has one of the worst notification management systems | ever. | | There's no way to select specific notifications you want (e.g. | person you follow starts a room). Instead you get inundated | with useless notifications about random rooms. | modshatereality wrote: | FTC website falls victim to the darkest pattern of all: relying | on javascript to manipulate html elements, so this is just a | blank page; yet another anti-HTML site. | easterncalculus wrote: | One example for sure is the endless CAPTCHAs you receive on | virtually any large website when you attempt to connect from TOR. | Each time you solve one it takes forever just to complain about | how you spending several minutes selecting every 'light' suddenly | isn't good enough to prove your humanity. You're not "checking if | I'm human" 60 times in a row, you're blocking me for not wanting | to be tracked on your website. | dd36 wrote: | Clubhouse scraping all your phone numbers to find someone on the | app is dark. | eh9 wrote: | Would companies that promise "securing your iPhone" count as a | dark pattern? They just seem to trick people into thinking their | phone is vulnerable and can only be protected by their software | instead of an OTA update. | UweSchmidt wrote: | Any kind of choice between "yes" and "later". That's BS. If you | offer "yes" you must offer "no". | mtone wrote: | Connecting to a Microsoft Teams of Office work account from | home gives you the fantastic "Use this account everywhere on | your device". | | It has 4 effective choices [0] with no clue about what's going | to happen to your windows account and what data or remote | control permissions will be sent to your organization. | | [0]: | https://engineering.purdue.edu/ECN/Support/KB/Docs/HomePCsud... | gundmc wrote: | Yes, but have you tried YouTube Premium? | sippeangelo wrote: | This drives me nuts on Twitter. "See less often" is not what I | want, and it doesn't even work. | sincerely wrote: | I linked to the comments page, here is a document with more | details: | https://downloads.regulations.gov/FTC-2021-0019-0001/content... | akomtu wrote: | Most of those dark patterns revolve around stealing personal data | to sell it to data brokers, sometimes accompanied by extortion to | give more of that data. If a big international corp made money by | stealing bicycles or cars, its execs would quickly end up in | prison, but this is what's happening right now in the internet. | If our politicians had balls and moral, they would make it a | crime to steal PII, unless the firm has a contract with the | customer signed by ink, not transferrable, expiring in a year at | most, with gov entities exempt. Unfortunately, PII theft has | become the backbone of the modern economy. | TheRealPomax wrote: | As a non-American: is this actually something the FTC has | authority over? | dylan604 wrote: | Maybe? We'll see what happens when/if they actually try. | Lobbyists' phones are probably going off right now with big | tech trying to spur them into action. | delecti wrote: | At least theoretically yes. One of their main purposes is to | establish regulations to protect customers. | ibraheemdev wrote: | darkpatterns.org is a pretty good reference: | https://www.darkpatterns.org | austincheney wrote: | A roughly 70% solution is to mandate WCAG 2.1 AA conformance. | After that the problems largely distill down to misleading and | deceptive content. Deceptive content resulting in a financial | harm not as a result of a technical defect is fraud. | | How to prove fraud in court? Easy, make them liable for | presenting accessibility conformance against the issue in | question. The defendant only has to demonstrate a good faith | effort to account for and correct the issue, but if they cannot | do that, because fraud is intentional, take them to the cleaners. | kingsuper20 wrote: | The internet was nice while it lasted. | | I'm thinking that that guy on youtube who builds cabins from | scratch in Canada with the charming Golden Retriever ('My Self | Reliance') probably has the right idea. Maybe the right answer is | a terminal that does email, banking, and Amazon. | diveanon wrote: | How can you bemoan what the internet has become and support | Amazon in the comment? | reaperducer wrote: | _How can you bemoan what the internet has become and support | Amazon in the comment?_ | | Amazon is a lifeline for people who live in remote places, | which is what I think he means by cabins in Canada. | | Amazon is the new Sears Catalog, enabling people who live | pretty much anywhere in North America to buy things quickly | and safely that are not available to them any other way. | | Pre-pandemic I spent a lot of time with people who live in | places where a "supermarket run" happens every other month, | when the person with the largest truck drives three hours to | the nearest Costco to fill ten grocery lists for all the | neighbors. Amazon handles the days in between. | CamperBob2 wrote: | Amazon annoys the living daylights out of me, but that's | because of usability issues, not because of deceptive or | intentionally-misleading practices. What are the ones you're | thinking of? | | If anything, Amazon's incompetence at search screws them out | of sales they would otherwise make. Their "dark patterns" are | all aimed at their own foot. | tomjen3 wrote: | Amazon is the best thing that every happened on the web. I | know people here hate it, and in the US apparently it has an | issue with fake goods, haven't had any think like that happen | to me here in Europe. | | I can buy just about anything from one shop and have it | arrive at my door. The weirdest combos ever. An HDMI cable | and cat food? Yes sir that will be on your doorstep next | monday. A #2 screw driver and a new bag for my vacum cleaner? | A bag pack, a pair of pants and a flash light? Right you go. | | I no longer have to go out to small shops and find the item I | want, saving me a ton of time. Plus so, so many books. | | Maybe it is different in the US where you have wallmart, but | here I have to source things from different online shops, | which takes time, is annoying an results in higher fees, plus | I don't know which shops are any good. | | Amazon solves that problem. | kingsuper20 wrote: | Because they are one of the few internet companies that I | find actually useful. If you live in a rural area, there's | really no other way. A new PC, a floor jack, large book | store, decent boots, are all 60 miles away. Of course, Amazon | caused part of the retail desert, although I'd mostly blame | box stores (and the Sears catalog before that). | | With the sites I named, I think my life would trundle on | pretty much unchanged. Maybe Usenet could be added to the | list for the odd bit of online socializing. | | While I'm designing my personal minimal internet, I'd add | that all the interfaces were text based. Potentially a person | could bolt on a low/no vision voice-based front-end. | wincy wrote: | Before the Sears catalog you instead had local monopolies | by general store owners who could be absolute tyrants since | there weren't any cars. Getting what you need has always | been difficult unless you literally live where it's being | made, which these days is Shenzhen or Guangzhou or | somewhere like that. | | The Rise and Fall of American Growth [0] is a fascinating | book that talks about how much the Sears catalog | revolutionized commerce in rural America. | | [0] https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-American-Growth- | Princeton/d... | latenightcoding wrote: | twitter randomly deciding that the account you created 5 minutes | ago is suspicious and they will block it until you provide your | phone number. | | also all of medium and linkedin | elliekelly wrote: | Well it's quite clear that none of the commenters so far have | read the document they're commenting on and almost none of them | seem able to distinguish between "software" and the internet. | | And I can't say I blame them. I know the fenty website isn't | software but what about facebook and amazon? I don't really | consider them software but I suppose most of their users access | the site(s) through iOS and android apps which I _would_ consider | software. | rosstex wrote: | Here's the recent FTC workshop on Dark Patterns related to this | call for comments: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/events- | calendar/bringing-dar... | hereme888 wrote: | Every modern video game | steve-benjamins wrote: | Web.com charges 13 months in a year. | | They bill months in 4 week intervals-- so a month = 28 days which | = 13 months per year. This is all in their fine print. | | Screenshot: | https://twitter.com/stevebenjamins/status/138531992456700313... | MisterBastahrd wrote: | Here's a fun one: | | An e-commerce website that offers a subscription page for signup | but requires you to contact customer service by phone or email in | order for you to cancel. Went through this recently with Bespoke | Post. I sent the cancellation email, their customer service | person replied saying that they would instead suspend my | subscription for three months, and required me to send them | another email. | | I'd LOVE to see an FTC rule that requires companies who take | subscriptions by web have link on the account page to unsubscribe | by web. | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | I had an experience a couple of days ago with exactly this type | of thing (I downloaded the comment form, and I'll send it in). | | In this case, it nearly cost the app maker a sale (I doubt | they'll go out of business on the loss of my sale. As it | happened, they didn't actually lose the sale). | | I wanted to ID some of the plants in my yard, looking for native | vs. introduced, so I downloaded a couple of apps. One was a good | one, but was really a "crowdsourced" one. I had to sign up for an | account, and participate in a community. Not a showstopper; but | not really what I was looking for. I'm into instant | gratification. | | The other one was an ML-type app that would analyze photos in | realtime. | | When I started it up, it immediately wanted me to get the in-app | purchase to the "premium" version, which is actually a yearly | subscription. | | The dark pattern, was how they did that. They obfuscated and | deprecated the navigation to the free variant. It was almost | impossible to see the buttons behind the premium banner, and it | was difficult to actually touch them. | | At first, I immediately shitcanned the app, as I assumed that you | were required to get a subscription before using it at all. | | I did a bit more research, and everyone was saying it was a | decent app, and that it could be used without the subscription. | | So I tried it again. This time, I squinted, and found the links. | | It worked really well. I'll be getting the subscription. | | The moral of the story is that they were so big on a dark | pattern, trying to force new users to start paying immediately, | that they actually drive off sales. The app works well. They | don't need to hide it. That's what apps that suck do. This app | does not suck. | burkaman wrote: | Have you tried Seek | (https://www.inaturalist.org/pages/seek_app)? It's from | iNaturalist, which might be the community-based one you found, | but you can easily ignore the community stuff and use it | without an account. Works pretty well, I recommend it. | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | Yes, iNaturalist Seek was the community-based one. It was | also regarded well. | FredPret wrote: | I've tried some ML plant ID apps and they were all totally off. | What's this good one called, if you don't mind saying? | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | https://www.picturethisai.com | | I should qualify this by saying I have a small yard on Long | Island, NY. The weeds and plants are fairly distinct and | well-known. | | Depending on where you are, YMMV. | dmd wrote: | Seek works incredibly well but has no paid version, so maybe | that's something else. | thraway123412 wrote: | > The moral of the story is that they were so big on a dark | pattern, I'll be getting the subscription. | | Yeah thanks for rewarding them for that. | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | _> > The moral of the story is that they were so big on a | dark pattern, I'll be getting the subscription. | | > Yeah thanks for rewarding them for that._ | | That was not a nice thing to do -altering a quote, to make it | appear as if I said something I didn't. I am leaving your | response in its unmodified entirety, above. | | Look, you have your opinion, I have mine, but It's a decent | app. I will be providing feedback to them -as a paying | subscriber, there's a good chance my feedback will be heard. | | But the thing I have against dark patterns, is the same thing | I have against what you did -it's dishonest. | thraway123412 wrote: | That was not intended to be read as a literal quote or an | attempt to make it appear as if you said something you | didn't. That's a _fairly common_ way of picking a message | apart to make a point, on some parts of the internet. | Sometimes people paraphrase instead of literally copying | words (esp. if there 's no good short sequence of words to | borrow), but quote marks are still used. I wish we had a | better notation for this. I'm sorry to have caused | confusion. | | Anyway, the point was just to express my disappointment in | that people keep supporting a company even after | complaining about their horrible dark patterns. And I don't | really mean to single you out personally, it's everywhere: | people complain and then keep using and rewarding the | service(s) they complain about. IME this rarely leads to | them becoming better over time, they just get worse over | time because they can get away with it. Abuse users until | the very end. It seems to work, we have so many users and | more are rolling in! | | Of course if you're actually giving them feedback, all the | power to you. I respect your opinion too. | | To give you an idea where I stand, a few days ago I was | thinking of buying a keyboard for my workshop PC. I have a | couple Planck EZs and they're decent keyboards. So I went | over to the ZSA site, started reading about their new | keyboard (Moonlander), and... MODAL POPUP ADVERTISING A | MAGAZINE[1]! Now I remember the time when browsers started | adding popup blockers built-in, and everyone (except scummy | advertisers) rejoiced. So I find it disturbing, disgusting, | and extremely disrespectful to bring back popups in the | form of modals. I kinda try to put my money where my mouth | is, so my reaction was to unsubscribe their magazine (the | way they presented it when I bought my plancks wasn't so | bad) and take my shopping elsewhere. | | [1] https://i.imgur.com/9bCDNMl.png | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | Understood. | | I believe that, as a software developer, I am constantly | encountering the classic "Do $20,000 worth of work for me | for free." If I refuse, it can sometimes get quite | unpleasant. | | As it so happens, I actually do a great deal of free | software. The users can sometimes be a bit on the | "knucklehead" side, but they usually respect my | boundaries. | | The people that don't, tend to be business owners. I sort | of expect it, as a good business owner is always looking | for every advantage they can. I can sometimes get rather | peeved by their attitudes. Around these parts, business | owners tend to be especially aggressive, and NY is known | for a hyper-aggressive environment and culture. | | The people that wrote the app do a valuable service. They | trained up a fairly effective neural network. The apps | are... _OK_. Not outstanding, but OK. They do get their | primary function done pretty effectively. That took time | and skill. | | They want to be paid, and I don't begrudge them. I | believe that supporting paid software is a moral | imperative for me. I won't go about laying my values on | other people, but I choose to have this attitude, and I | like to follow it with action. | thraway123412 wrote: | Sure. I think we mostly stand on the same line here. | | I just tend to take hard stance against anything I find | user hostile. Nagging, dark patterns, exploiting | addictions, attempts at leeching personal information, | lock-in, etcetra will quickly put you on my no buy list. | | I think those things are evil at worst and a waste of | time and resources (in a global, zero-sum way) at best, | and long term we'd be better off if everyone rejected | such behavior and put their money towards business that | focuses solely on providing superb service without the | abuse. Unfortunately these abusive practices tend to | _work_ as far as profit is concerned.. it 's like tragedy | of the commons, in a way. | | I want to get paid too, and live in a nicer world. | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | Well, I did send them feedback, and pointed at the OP. | nopeYouAreWrong wrote: | This might not belong here but I think there's something to be | said for the changes Google makes and is currently making around | Performance and Page Ranking. Black box bullsh!t metrics forcing | everyone to appease the magical algorithms in their highly | questionable tool. Their own framework fails here significantly. | iankp wrote: | TrustArc is a company used by major brands that utilizes dark | patterns to FAKE opt-out time for GDRP compliance. Major | companies employ lies. It will hold your browser captive for 2 | minutes in hopes that you cancel or accept all. If you don't, it | shows "We are processing the requested change to your cookie | preferences. This may take up to a few minutes to process.". Not | even incompetence could make this an honest process. | mschuster91 wrote: | Well, given that some sites employ _hundreds_ of trackers and | other barely-above-malware stuff, it does make sense for these | requests to take ages. | | Unfortunately, many people simply click on the "accept all" | button and don't care about their privacy that much. | | The idea of GDPR was that consumers would be hesitant upon | seeing the massive amount of third parties that use your data | and demand change from the providers, turns out people don't | care / providers rather let privacy-oriented customers suffer | than to take a hit on their advertising profits. | iankp wrote: | The problem is their competitors manage to accomplish opting- | out near instantly. | ratww wrote: | _> Well, given that some sites employ hundreds of trackers | and other barely-above-malware stuff, it does make sense for | these requests to take ages._ | | Last time I checked, there were no requests being made | client-side in the 1-2 minutes it took to cancel. It was | pretty much the same number of requests for both accepting | and denying. Maybe they changed it since it's too blatant. | | Also, since it should be opt-in, then accepting should | obviously take longer. | pta2002 wrote: | But what requests would it even make? If you opt out you're | effectively telling it to _not_ make any requests. | galangalalgol wrote: | Wow, that is pretty blatent. When EU stomps on them I'm sure | someone else will pop up. Any chance the companies employing | trustarc could be liable? | lmkg wrote: | The way GDPR works, I think the companies using TrustArc are | _more_ likely to be held liable than TrustArc itself. Unless | TrustArc makes the unforced error of getting itself | classified as a Data Controller. | josefx wrote: | > Unless TrustArc makes the unforced error of getting | itself classified as a Data Controller. | | Knowing how some scams and tax evasion schemes work I | wouldn't be surprised if they could just set up a separate | company that ends up with all the liability without any of | the assets and just have that declare bankruptcy the moment | the first fines hit. Rinse/Repeat as often as necessary. | rapnie wrote: | May have witnessed this or similar on Oracle website, when I | was still using Java. Always thought "what the hell are you | processing?". | DyslexicAtheist wrote: | Based in SV with ~370 employees on LinkedIn and over 17K | followers. this above comment needs to be posted verbatim into | one of their most recent posts with a mention that GDPR makes | its EU customers liable and an additional link to the FTC for | public comments. It would make them scramble I think. | | LinkedIn is underrated as a platform to call out brands, it's | where many spend a lot of their money on PR / image. | lima wrote: | Slack has a fun dark pattern - they purposefully remove | functionality from their web app to make you install their native | app. | | The web app has a workspace switcher sidebar, but it only appears | on ChromeOS, where you can't install the native client. | | https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/144258/slacks-we... | raverbashing wrote: | Oh so taken from the same page as the Reddit App it seems | swiley wrote: | Discord does this as well. If they detect a mobile user agent | they disable the button to hide the member list which makes | group chats unusable. If you just change your user agent the | button re-appears and you don't even need the app unless your | browser doesn't handle voice and you need that. | godelski wrote: | I'm just impressed how bad slack is on mobile. Either I'm | getting messages on my computer and phone (on phone after I've | responded on the computer) or not at all. | yaml-ops-guy wrote: | I've been having this problem with push notifications for | quite a few apps, but Slack just seems to genuinely do | whatever the hell it wants, regardless of whatever I've set | preferences to. | Mixtape wrote: | Reddit is just as guilty of this. If you want to see all the | comments on a thread on their mobile site, you're pushed to | install their official app and presumably create an account | when doing so. As far as I can tell, the best workaround is to | use the desktop site. | armchairhacker wrote: | For iOS, I recommend Apollo (https://apolloapp.io/). A reddit | client that isn't from Reddit. | catillac wrote: | Thank you! I almost universally use the mobile website but | it just keeps getting worse, presumably on purpose. I | installed the official app but it's very bad. I'll download | this one now! | bogwog wrote: | And on iOS at least, whenever you visit the site you'll get a | popup that blocks the page with two options: continue in | mobile app, or continue in safari. | | It's basically "install our shitty app, or keep using the web | version?", except it's worded and displayed in a | confusing/misleading way with what seems to be an attempt to | mimic a system dialog. | Trasmatta wrote: | Not just the website, but the old.reddit version. The new | Reddit design is a disaster in terms of usability. | | I also disable all custom subreddit styles, because so many | of them are horrible. | swiley wrote: | I'm so thankful for the Reddit redesign, I had a serious | problem spending way too much time on that site. Now it's | almost completely unusable. | GordonS wrote: | Can confirm that you cannot use the app with logging in with | a Reddit account. | | Just yesterday, I got tired of the annoying "use the app or | login" messages when tapping to view more comments on a post, | so I caved and installed the app - given the language of the | nag, I thought I wouldn't have to login, and the Reddit UX of | constant full-page reloads just to view more comments is such | a joke I figured the app had to be better. | | But no, you have to login with a Reddit account to use the | app :/ | the_pwner224 wrote: | Long pressing and opening in a new tab works for expanding | child comment threads (but not for viewing all 500+ commends | under a post). | | Once that stops working, I'll have to always use old.reddit | on my phone, which won't be great UI on mobile - but I | suppose it can't be too hard to make a Stylus stylesheet to | make it usable. And once old.reddit is gone, well, that's the | end of Reddit for me. | jimktrains2 wrote: | i.reddit.com is the old mobile site. | the_pwner224 wrote: | Unfortunately it has no way to expand image/video | previews without navigating to a different page. Makes it | a lot harder to use for me. | ryandrake wrote: | Also Zoom. Their web version seems to no longer work on | Safari/Mac and Firefox/Mac, so they essentially force you | onto native or don't use it. | noisem4ker wrote: | I don't know about macOS specifically, but elsewhere it can | be defeated. The link to join from the browser appears if | you dismiss the initial offer to open the app and force a | retry. It's absolutely disgusting. | https://gauginggadgets.com/join-zoom-meeting-without- | install... | est31 wrote: | I use i.reddit.com. I think it was their old mobile site. | Works like a charm. | pahn wrote: | i can recommend teddit, that's reddit without the annoying | stuff: https://teddit.net/ | chestervonwinch wrote: | Can you explain why this is a dark pattern? How does slack | benefit from you using the native app vs. the web app? | wolpoli wrote: | One major benefit of native app over web app is their ability | to send notifications to get the user's attention. | lima wrote: | Web apps can send notifications just fine, even in the | background. | cma wrote: | I don't know that they do, but they could potentially read | your local files as part of telemetry, gps, nearby wifi | network ssids and MAC addresses, etc. | jackson1442 wrote: | I mean I personally keep Slack on my Dock since it's open | pretty frequently. This integrates it even more into my | workflow since I can quickly check and see if I have any | unreads/etc. making it more grating to switch to another chat | app. Maybe it's not a "dark pattern" but it certainly is a | method to increase adoption. | rapnie wrote: | Slack app has 4 trackers, requests 21 permissions on Android. | Harder to block trackers, while their more tech-oriented | audience probably uses browser adblockers more often. | | https://reports.exodus- | privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.Slack/l... | zepto wrote: | Does this mean that all apps that can't also be used via the | web are a 'dark pattern'? | | I ask because I can easily imagine that if most customers are | using apps, they might choose to remove functionality from the | website rather than maintain it, just because it's not worth | it. | dec0dedab0de wrote: | If it's something that makes more sense as a website, then | yes. I would go so far as to say any app that doesn't work | offline is likely a dark pattern | gnicholas wrote: | I can't believe that the Microsoft Teams software automatically | reinstalls itself in my login items every time I open it. I don't | use it often -- mostly when I have calls with people at Microsoft | -- but this happens without fail every time. | | As far as I'm concerned, this makes the Teams software malware. I | have never had any other software that repeatedly put itself into | my login items that wasn't clearly malware. If I worked on Teams, | I would be embarrassed. | etripe wrote: | Is it at all possible Teams is coming back due to a company | group policy? | gnicholas wrote: | It's a personal computer. | tracer4201 wrote: | I was shopping on Eddie Bauer about 15 minutes ago. They have a | great deal on t-shirts and shorts, which they plastered all over | the page. It works like this - the more items you buy, you get a | bigger discount. | | Great - that makes sense. But there's a catch. If I shop in a | store, I simply go to the counter, get the discount upon | checkout, pay, and I'm on my way. | | On their website, I have to use a promo code. So I have to | remember what the promo code was and enter it at checkout. Okay | -- that seems kind of like a dark pattern. | | Here's where they lost my trust. By the time I got to the | checkout page, they asked for all my shipping and billing details | and then gave me the final purchase button. I just happened to | then realize that wait -- I was supposed to enter in a promo | code! So then I had to back out to find the promo code again, and | on checkout, I have to scroll down a full screens worth of real | estate BELOW the purchase button to enter the promo code. | | So they advertise the discount up front but then use shady | tactics hoping I either forget to use the promo code or even if I | want to, I give up trying to find it and just pay full price. | | Needless to say I decided not to purchase from them. It's | dishonest and not worthy of my business. | max_ wrote: | The failure is is not regulators that have failed to "regulate". | | It is designers of the tech (browsers, Operating systems) that | have failed to come up with systems that are difficult for devs | to abuse. | Ensorceled wrote: | How does Firefox stop the "impossible unsubscribe" dark pattern | that NYTimes uses? | max_ wrote: | Gmail for instance rolled out a feature for stuff just like | this [0]. | | Firefox also has really great features like containers that | keep your web activity isolated from other web applications. | [1]. | | I wish there was more innovation in this space though. | | [0]: https://www.google.com/amp/s/blog.leavemealone.app/how- | does-... | | [1]: https://support.mozilla.org/en- | US/questions/1201060#answer-1... | dkdk8283 wrote: | Notification abuse and autoplay | fpig wrote: | The worst one is probably trying to make it hard for users to | _stop_ paying for a service, like cancelling a subscription. That | shit should be punishable by literal prison time. | bmiller2 wrote: | The worst I've seen was Nord VPN. Three or four modals / | screens where the action to stop your subscription was the | smaller, secondary UI element, almost not even noticeable. How | a dev or PM can live with themselves while implementing that I | have no idea. | nitrogen wrote: | _How a dev or PM can live with themselves while implementing | that I have no idea._ | | Dev builds it the user-friendly way. PM uses Google Tag | Manager to inject JS that changes the stylesheets to the evil | way. | reaperducer wrote: | Nord has all kinds of problems. | | My Nord subscription went from $5/month to $200/month | recently. When I complained, the CSR told me to just cancel | the account and sign up using the special offer link and a | throwaway e-mail address. | | That tells me there are deeper problems, and I'm not | interested in doing business with that company. | jonas21 wrote: | Companies are required to provide California residents with an | easy-to-use mechanism for cancelling subscriptions, and any | subscription that you sign up for online must be cancellable | online [1]. | | This actually works quite well. I've had no trouble cancelling | any subscriptions in the past few years, including the New York | Times, which took maybe 3 or 4 clicks from the account screen | (IIRC, there was an optional "why are you cancelling?" screen, | then they offered a discount, and that was it). | | [1] | https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm... | mrweasel wrote: | That should be the default, signup and cancellations should | be available via the same channel. | internetslave wrote: | Blue apron. I can't figure out how to cancel through the app, | so I keep cancelling The deliveries | dmix wrote: | About 10yrs ago NBA did this to me. They made it impossible to | cancel a $99/m sub. | | Their instructions were login and go to the cancel button but | the cancel button was broken and said call this number. But no | one ever picked up the number. | | I will never buy a NBA branded thing after that obvious | bullshit scam. | shiftpgdn wrote: | New York Times does this also. As far as I can tell it's | literally impossible to cancel a subscription. I had to close | the card attached to my account. | shubik22 wrote: | NY Magazine too. After renewing my subscription at 2x the | original rate I paid, they made it incredibly difficult to | cancel. When I called their customer support, they told me | I had purchased my subscription through a third party so | they couldn't cancel it for me and I'd have to contact the | third party. | | Me: what's their contact info? Agent: inquiries@nymag.com | Me: This is a third party but they have an NY Mag email | address? Agent: Yes. Me: ... How are they a third party | then? Agent: One second, I'm transferring you to my | supervisor. | | Nothing turns me off a brand I like and want to support | more than 1) autorenewals at 2x your intro price and 2) | making cancellations both arbitrarily difficult and | insulting. | hhjinks wrote: | You can change your payment option to paypal, remove your | card from NYT, then remove your card from paypal. They'll | complain to you for a couple weeks, but they'll cancel it | for you after a while after that. | edoceo wrote: | you can cancel auto-sub in paypal w/o removing the card | elithrar wrote: | If your billing address is in California, the NYT do let | you cancel online. | | They intentionally make it extremely high friction. | gundmc wrote: | I'm in California and was able to cancel online but only | after waiting in queue and then "chatting" with a | retention specialist for 10 minutes. | | This was about 2 years ago so maybe they've changed | since. | nobodyandproud wrote: | I was able to cancel my subscription with minimal fuss. | | I did have to interact with a chat window, which was of | course annoying. | | I also made damn sure I received a cancellation email. Too | many horror stories to not do my due diligence. | avitous wrote: | I recently cancelled without any issue... by virtue of | paying for it initially with Paypal, which makes it trivial | to cancel the recurring payment on my end. When I called | them to cancel, and they tried giving me a runaround, I | interrupted to tell them I had already cancelled the | payment anyway so they literally had no choice; then I hung | up. No worries! I will never subscribe to anything that | doesn't accept Paypal for payment, thereby giving me the | last word in controlling said payment (yes, I know a credit | card would allow this, only not as easily.) | litoorachure wrote: | I don't think that's accurate today. I recently cancelled | my NYT subscription from their website, didn't even need to | call them. | | How long ago was your experience? | ncallaway wrote: | I ran into this myself 18 months ago. I had subscribed | years ago online, but was unable to cancel online. | | I informed the person who canceled my subscription over | the phone that I'd never consider doing business with | them again, unless they fixed the problem. | | I hope it's fixed now! That'd be a great improvement | detaro wrote: | Do you happen to have an address in California? | litoorachure wrote: | No. | snegu wrote: | I also was able to easily cancel online a few months ago | (not in California). I'm wondering if they changed their | policies recently, in which case this complaint is out of | date. | dmix wrote: | About 10yrs ago | offtop5 wrote: | They way to do this is to run the subscription though | something like Google Play. Then you cancel it on Google's | side. | | Be wary if a company avoids Google. For example Tinder | started forcing users to subscribe directly instead of | using Google. This is because most people cancel almost | immediately since once you subscribe you find all your | matches are bots. | | The entire purpose is to make it just hard enough so you | think ohh it's only 10$ a month. Another trick is to offer | a month free. Hulu does this. If you cancel on their | website you get several pages which try to convince you to | stay. | | Google also makes it easy to manage all your subscriptions | in one place. What is all this crap I'm paying for, I can | quickly see what and delete it. Also I'm much more likely | to try a service ( I'm studying Chinese right now and have | used various apps) if I can do it via Google Play . | jackson1442 wrote: | This is one of the few things that actually makes me | happy with the closed ecosystem of the App Store on iOS. | There's virtually no risk with subscriptions in there- | they can all be canceled in a few clicks in the | Subscriptions section of your Apple ID. And if | something's straight up a scam or an accidental (but | unconsumed) purchase, you can request a refund from Apple | with rather little friction. | | First-party trials annoy me since cancelation is instant, | unlike trials from third-party apps (those cancel after | the trial period if you cancel during). Fortunately, you | can go to Report A Problem and just say you didn't mean | to have the subscription charged and they'll refund it as | long as it's a few days from the charge date. | heavyset_go wrote: | > _This is one of the few things that actually makes me | happy with the closed ecosystem of the App Store on iOS._ | | And yet there are scams that are costing users $5 million | a year, or more, on the iOS App Store[1]. | | [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26794228 | yladiz wrote: | There are also scams costing people money without using | iOS, for example where the person is tricked into | thinking they have a debt and sending thousands of | dollars in cash to a random address[1]. What's your | point? | | 1: https://youtu.be/VrKW58MS12g (it's the Mark Rober | phone scammer video) | jackson1442 wrote: | I'd need to see the purchase page to fully form an | opinion on this. Apple has rather strict guidelines for | displaying cost and that appears to be one of the most | important parts of app review. I'd equate someone being | surprised by a subscription cost to someone not looking | at menu prices when eating out: all purchases through the | app store use the same sheet to display price, renewal | period, free trial, etc when requesting payment. | | Of course, the app's premise is a scam, but my comment | was about the ease of canceling and managing | subscriptions. Dare I say that apps like this would be | even more bold and prevalent if alternative app stores | were available. | dehrmann wrote: | > Tinder started forcing users to subscribe directly | instead of using Google. This is because most people | cancel almost immediately since once you subscribe you | find all your matches are bots. | | More likely it's because Google takes a 30% cut. Adyen | takes a ~4% cut. I still maintain that if Apple and | Google took a 5% cut from their app stores, no one would | have complained. | jupp0r wrote: | This. PayPal works too, probably others. | suifbwish wrote: | Paying for news in 2021 is a lot like paying for porn in | 2021. Who does that. | smolder wrote: | People who want quality journalism pay for it. It comes | up in the comments here a lot, how journalism has gotten | lazy/bad because of the lack of money in doing it well. | The solution is to pay those doing it well. | snegu wrote: | That's interesting! I recently cancelled my NYT | subscription using their live chat with no trouble at all. | kayodelycaon wrote: | Same here. No problems at all. (I'm in Ohio.) | harles wrote: | I ran into this as well with NYT (grabbed a sub for | election season only). You can cancel if you chat with | someone during business hours - and immediately shoot down | any attempt to to extend etc. | | Related, I really hate Apple taking a permanent 30% cut of | iOS subs, but I will use that route whenever possible. | Canceling an iOS sub is always a painless single click | experience from a known location. In fact I usually | subscribe and immediately cancel so I'll renew only if I | actively choose to do so. | andreilys wrote: | You can also open a temporary credit card linked to your | real credit card using www.privacy.com | | If you have problems cancelling a subscription, you can | simply cancel the temporary card that privacy.com created | for you | edoceo wrote: | someone upthread got sent to collections after a card- | cancel way, so, still some risk | kart23 wrote: | And they recently ran an opinion piece calling attention to | dark patterns. | | https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/30/opinion/dark-pattern- | inte... | lostlogin wrote: | Nicely timed, thank you. They have a sale on I was | contemplating taking up. Nope. | inglor_cz wrote: | I heard that as far as web cancellation of NYT goes, the | Cancel button magically appears if you enter your | location to be in California. | mekkkkkk wrote: | If that's true that is real scummy. Someone should | investigate with a VPN. | lostlogin wrote: | This is awful. If anyone from California could verify it | would be interesting. | andy_ppp wrote: | It really does make you wonder that "the paper of record" | deals in such immoral actions what else they are willing to | compromise on. I seem to remember Pg being completely | misrepresented by the same paper [1]. Maybe they are just | really unethical people with a good brand. | | [1] https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1236975851255857152 | astrea wrote: | My girlfriend and I were both able to cancel. The number | worked for us, but we had to say no through a bunch of | sales pitches before we got it successfully canceled. | throwawayboise wrote: | > we had to say no through a bunch of sales pitches | | Just repeat the phrase "I want to cancel my subscription" | to any question they ask. They'll get the message pretty | quickly. | jrockway wrote: | I'm highly in favor of making this illegal. My credit card | expired and I switched my NYT subscription from through | their website to through Apple (so I could cancel), and | they sent my account to collections! Working with the | collections agency to get it removed was easy, however. | | I guess the law that I would be in favor of is twofold: | | 1) You must be able to cancel subscriptions from the same | website that you created it from. After you cancel, the | subscription must last until the end date. (So you aren't | forced to set a calendar reminder for the day before.) | | 2) Sending an account to collections falsely should carry a | 100x penalty. If they make a mistake and their billing | system sends your account worth $300 to collections, they | pay a $30,000 fine. Should motivate someone to write some | unit tests for that. | tobr wrote: | > You must be able to cancel subscriptions from the same | website that you created it from. | | More to the point, it should be required that | canceling/downgrading is _as easy as or easier than_ | signing up /upgrading. Want to offer 1-click-buy, you | also need to offer 1-click-cancel. | amluto wrote: | I would be in favor of a different approach: a merchant | should not, under any circumstances, be able to remove | money from an account, charge a credit card, or otherwise | take money from someone without the _explicit_ | authorization of the customer. In this context, explicit | means one of two things: | | 1. The customer intentionally authorized that specific | transaction. A specific transaction means _one_ | transaction. If a merchant wants to use this approach, | they need to ask for authorization each time they charge. | | 2. The merchant may register a subscription or other | recurring charge arrangement with the customer's bank or | card provider. The customer must explicitly authorize | this registration at the time it occurs and may, by | contacting their bank, revoke the authorization at any | time. The merchant may not recreate the authorization | without the customer re-authorizing it at the time of | creation. | | Eventually, the whole pull model of money transfers needs | to go away. Taking money from someone by knowing their | account number is nonsensical and should not be possible. | amaccuish wrote: | >The merchant may register a subscription or other | recurring charge arrangement with the customer's bank or | card provider. | | An advantage of Direct Debits in the UK is that I see | them all in my banking app and can cancel them | individually. A company is legally required to gain my | consent again before charging again. | Dayshine wrote: | Of course, just because you cancel your Direct Debit | doesn't mean you aren't legally on the hook for that | payment. | | They can still send demand letters and "send you to | collections". | nmca wrote: | So I love this, but I imagine that all those VC funded | subscription-for-x do not... (dollar shave, etc etc) | sebmellen wrote: | Though I'm skeptical of cryptocurrencies as a _market_ , | I'm very bullish on the technology long-term for use- | cases like this. Having programmable money where every | party is able to audit something like a smart contract | and see how their deposited money will be treated is | huge. We could effectively get rid of pull-model money | transfers and instead relegate similar functionality to | open smart contract pools. | mLuby wrote: | Even worse! Now you don't have protection from your | credit card company not redress through the courts. | | You already have the ability to "audit" the EULA/ToS/PP; | it's that link you never click next to the "I agree" | button. | | The powerful (in money, size, skill, fame, strength, | etc.) always try to (ab)use systems to bully the weak. | Smart contracts only amplify their ability to do so. | | Why would a company, which (reasonably) declines to | deploy its limited legal resources negotiating with each | user, possibly be interested in deploying its limited | engineering resources to negotiate a smart contract with | each user--especially when one screw-up can "legally" | bankrupt the company? (See The DAO.) | | If there can be no negotiation, the options are: | 1. You reject their terms and don't use the service. | 2. You accept their terms and legally use the service. | 3. They accept your terms and you legally use the | service. (Usually too risky/costly for them.) 4. | You reject their terms and illegally use the service | anyway. | | We could legalize option 4, but that is a _very_ bold | move--the equivalent of the Chicxulub impact on legal and | business practices. | jrockway wrote: | I think the explicit authorization is the contract you | sign that allows for the subscription. It's already | pretty risky to loan people money, and your system makes | it even riskier. (Consider the business model of cloud | providers; you agree to pay for whatever you use, and | then they charge you for last month's usage. If you could | just not pay, then the business wouldn't really be | viable. You'd have to figure out what you're going to use | in advance, and pre-pay, and the consequences for getting | it wrong by 1 cent would be unnecessary downtime. Cloud | providers of course let you pre-pay at a discount, but | having both pre-pay and post-pay make a lot of sense. | But, we're all paying extra because of the people that | walk away at the end of the month and don't pay their | bill.) | | It would be worthwhile to consider not letting "click | agree" create a binding contract. I think I'm in favor of | that. | | I agree that things like newspapers don't need to be a | subscription or have a contract. On the first of the | month they should just pop up a dialog that asks if you | still want the subscription, and if so, it charges your | card for 1 month. I would certainly like that, but it | does carry a risk on my end -- if they go out of business | on the second of the month, I'm stuck paying for 29 days | of the subscription I can't use. | | Like I said, the big problem is not being able to cancel. | That's why I buy subscriptions through Apple -- there's | always a cancel button. I think we should make that | mandatory for every subscription provider. | Spivak wrote: | This is literally what "sending you a bill" is. They | don't need to have an upfront agreement to charge your | card. They need an upfront agreement that you will pay | for services used at the end of the month. This is | standard invoicing that these companies already do just | without automatically charging cards. | | When you pay your medical bills it's still an explicit | payment. | amluto wrote: | I think there are a couple of issues. One is that most | countries consider giant piles or fine print that no one | reads to be binding contracts and that customers can't | credibly negotiate them. The other is that it's far too | easy for merchants to extract money from customers | without the customers' consent. | | Attacking the latter might make a large difference even | if the former remains unsolved. The New York Times can | get away with making cancellation difficult because they | have the power to unilaterally take money from their | (former?) customers. But, if anyone could trivially | revoke their authorization to charge them money, I doubt | that the New York Times would actually try to sue or | collect from their customers en masse. Sure, they could | try, but that would be a fantastic way to piss everyone | off and to recover very little money. | awalGarg wrote: | I'm always amazed reading that this isn't already the | case in the US. In India, every charge requires SMS based | 2fa. Starting a bank mandate (ECS/NACH) for automatic | transfers needs me to physically sign a paper. It can be | revoked any time by the user without any involvement of | the receiving party, and can be done online as well. | thechao wrote: | I think unlimited recurring subscriptions should just not | be allowed, period: all multipay plans should have a | fixed & finite pay period, after which the service | expires. Only the card holder has the unilateral right to | re-establish the payments. | mLuby wrote: | What if the user wants to cancel before the term is up? | If that's allowed, there won't be discounts for annual | plans. (Maybe not a bad thing, but maybe inefficient.) | consp wrote: | I do not know how it is in the US, but where I live those | automatic subscriptions are cancelable (and usually | refundable) by the user via the bank or credit card company | if the company collecting it is not responding. This is very | easy in the first 56 days and a bit harder afterwards. They | can retry to collect but you can keep doing it. The idea is | you send them a official letter telling them you revoke your | authorization which they have to do, not adhering to that | request is their problem not yours. Depending on the contract | this might trigger fines or require you to front the entire | bill at once but for normal recurring subscriptions this is | not an issue and otherwise should be reasonable (paying a | 'fine' higher than the total sum is not allowed for | instance). | tobmlt wrote: | Thanks for pointing this out! | | I wonder if someone can start a service to facilitate this | for people. So many dark patterns, so many opportunities to | ease the transaction costs/friction of disentangling? ;) | judge2020 wrote: | It's the same in the U.S. If you do this, the failed | charges might be sent to collections agencies, but that | doesn't usually matter much to lenders if it's a small | subscription - although this $100/mo NBA charge might cause | some issues. | Phlarp wrote: | American debit cards generally don't have these | protections, but American credit cards absolutely do have | robust consumer protection mechanisms. | | It's also a pretty big negative mark for merchants that get | charge-backs issued against them, if just a small | percentage of people used charge backs to cancel these | "subscriptions" it would make their processing fees | skyrocket or even get them dropped by the major processors | the_snooze wrote: | > literal prison time | | Yup | | https://twitter.com/javan/status/1357800714018443270 | darksaints wrote: | Just watched that video, and I don't know what canary is, but | I can guarantee you I will never use it. Fuck that. | rawtxapp wrote: | Just use Privacy's virtual cards to sign up for services. If a | service doesn't let you cancel, just cancel the card itself. | That's what I've been doing. | | Of course, it's a different story if you signed some kind of | contract, but for the pay-montly kind of things, it's a no | brainer. You also keep your real cards number private in case | the service gets hacked and Privacy doesn't seem to check the | name, so you can give a fake name to the service. | fpig wrote: | This looks like a great service! | | Edit: crap, looks like it's US-only :/ | ykat7 wrote: | If you're in the UK, EU, New Zealand, Australia, or | Singapore, I found out yesterday that Wise (TransferWise) | customers get 3 virtual cards free of charge [1][2]. | | I'd be interested to hear about any other UK/EU firms | offering similar. | | [1] https://wise.com/gb/blog/shop-safely-virtually-anywhere | | [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27006326 | egwor wrote: | Revolut supports one time cards... provided you're happy | with Revolut. | rovr138 wrote: | Every time you sign up for a monthly service, there's an | agreement and terms which is a contract between both parties. | | While this works, depending on the service and what it says, | they can send your debt to collectors. | | And that's why there needs to exist regulation around it. | shkkmo wrote: | If a company makes it difficult to cancel, you can always talk | to your card issuer. They are required to allow you to stop all | future payments to a recipient but may force you to request | this in writing. | | However in my experience, you can usually accomplish it with a | phone call and can often dispute the most recent charge as | well. | | IMHO, chargebacks are the best way to fight back against | companies that use dark patterns in their billing/cancelation | process. | duxup wrote: | Would be nice to see some regulation / rules on cancellations | of reoccurring payments / services. | | It's not like it would have to be super technical, most judges | would have no problem interpreting it. | dqpb wrote: | The New York Times does this. Unforgivable. | ls65536 wrote: | As a general rule, it ought to be no more difficult or time- | consuming to cancel a service than it was to sign up for it in | the first place. | plorg wrote: | Audible does not allow you to cancel through the app, and | cancelling via the web takes you through two extra pages of | customer retention, "Continue Cancelling", or similar. | | I haven't used the Scribd app, but cancelling the service | through the web similarly takes more than one extra page of | customer retention "special offer" pages. | elliekelly wrote: | I signed up for a one month "free" trial of Scribd. I noticed | they charged my card but I (wrongly) assumed it was a pre- | authorization that would fall off before it ever actually hit | my account. I liked Scribd okay but I felt I hadn't really | given it a fair shake during my trial month and figured I'd | pay for this month, too and then decide whether I'd keep it. | Woke up yesterday and checked my card statement for the month | only to find out Scribd charged me for my "free" trial. Since | I didn't notice until my free month was up they charged me | for this month, too. I cancelled this morning and had to go | through one "special offer" page (for "Scribd Lite" @ | $4.99/month IIRC). | | I'm SOL on this month's charges but you'd better believe I | disputed the original charge with Amex. Scribd even sent me a | "receipt" for my "free" trial showing a total of $0.00 at the | exact time they charged me $9.99. | | It's just bad business. I should have heeded the many | warnings about Scribd's deceptive billing and now they've | added yet another unhappy customer who will complain about | their shady business practices at every opportunity I get. | ascotan wrote: | Good example of this is where you can only unsubscribe via | phone so they can route you to a 'specialist' that attempts to | talk you out of it. i.e. you can subscribe via software but but | unsubscribe via phone. | itisit wrote: | And getting a new credit card used to be a reliable failsafe to | stop getting billed for a hard-to-cancel service, but not so if | the subscription agreement allows for automatic updating: | | https://twocents.lifehacker.com/heres-why-everyone-already-h... | deepzn wrote: | po*nhub is almost criminal at this to be honest smh | alexfromapex wrote: | Facebook and Instagram forcing users to enable tracking. Also | network effects and how to combat them would be interesting. | jokoon wrote: | I'm really curious how you can outlaw dark patterns. | ratww wrote: | The same way one can outlaw murder and other crimes. Not sure I | understand the question. | | Outlawing means it can still happen, but you have to enforce, | investigate, catch the perpetrator, go to trial, and punish in | a way. Or just apply a fine that you can appeal. | 0xcde4c3db wrote: | Dark patterns aren't fundamentally new, they've just recently | taken on a new form in software. An example of an old dark | pattern was that a company would simply mail people unsolicited | merchandise, and then bill them an inflated price for it if it | wasn't returned. In that case, the (US) law was changed to | specify that any such unsolicited shipment is presumed to be a | gift and the sender is not entitled to payment for it. | | The FTC has been dealing with this kind of crap for over a | century. The key is that this is in the context of advertising | and trade practices, not viewpoint or artistic style. You'll | still be able to include fictional dark patterns in your post- | cyberpunk visual novel if you want to. | salawat wrote: | Yessssss! | | It's about damn time. Time to sit down, do some research, and | write up some papers! | cj wrote: | I'm assuming this is sarcasm? What do you propose be done | instead of doing research and writing papers? | burnished wrote: | Why would this be sarcasm? Wouldn't a well researched paper | be the ideal public comment? I don't understand how the top | comment here is so unpopular. | salawat wrote: | Nope. Not sarcasm. I'm going through each of the kiddo's | tablets and cataloging every dark pattern, in every game. | Then I'm writing up the details of our nightmare with PayPal, | the couple of financial institutions I've had nightmares | getting things closed out from, and possibly even chucking in | a few examples of contact template language that I think | qualify like "To opt out, send a hand-signed letter to yada- | yada...". | | I'm so tired of malicious compliance, hidden or disguised | unsubscribe links, and complete disregard for the burden | imposed on consumers. | | Gacha games, loot boxes, that type of thing. Basically | everything listed here. | | https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3400901 | | but also | | https://www.darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern | | or monitored here: | | https://www.darkpattern.games/ | | I've come to realize these types of "Dark Patterns" exist in | way more than just UI's. Businesses often find ways of | leveraging the fruits of them for alternate revenue streams. | | I'm sure there are academics out there who'll nail down the | white paper aspect, butI tend to try to supply a boots on the | ground eye-view since I spend a lot of time trying to teach | people what to look out for, and why it's a problem. | splithalf wrote: | Not doing those things and achieving the same outcome at no | cost. | Hnrobert42 wrote: | It was surprisingly easy to register a comment. For those of you | commenting here, consider clicking through and comment there. | dqpb wrote: | How does the FTC consume these public comments? I just read a few | of them and the quality is very low - rambling, unspecific, non- | sensical. | [deleted] | bakatubas wrote: | Honestly all websites should support a no-script, static version | to prevent 90% of the webs BS. We used to be able to view sites | with JavaScript disabled and actually things would work. | | Also, instead of arbitrary cookies why not standardize | authentication/authorization security mechanisms to avoid having | those stupid cookie pop ups. | | At this point there are common web pattern which separates the | essentials from the BS--so why not get rid of the BS and keep the | good stuff? | pja wrote: | Hah. Literally an hour ago I fat-fingered the "Sign up to Amazon | Music!" button in the Amazon Music App on my phone whilst putting | the phone in my pocket. | | To be fair to Amazon though, they do let you cancel the | subscription online with no bullshit & you still get to keep the | 90 day free trial -- presumably they hope you'll like the service | enough to decide to pay for it anyway. | | (The worst example I know of this "single button press sign-up" | pattern was Nassim Taleb accidentally signing up to pay for a | software upgrade to his Tesla in the Tesla App that cost $1000s & | having no way to undo it except shouting loudly at Tesla / Elon | Musk on Twitter.) | andy81 wrote: | Let's not give Amazon a free ride, cancelling the Prime trial | was some real bullshit last time I tried. | | The option was hidden behind several pages of "Here's what | you'll miss out on" and "You still have x days remaining, why | not check out these shows" and "confirm" buttons with slightly | different position/text/color. | ajaimk wrote: | Every OneTrust pop-up for GDPR I've seen is using multiple dark | patterns to trick you into giving access to more than essential | cookies. | OliverGilan wrote: | i think there are some rather great comments/examples of Dark | Patterns in this thread and I just want to remind everyone to | also submit those as public comment to the FTC! Just posting it | on HN won't get it in front of the people who can make a | difference! | tobiasSoftware wrote: | The dark pattern I've been seeing a lot lately is billing | services trying to make you go paperless. I've seen all sorts of | dark patterns around it, from subtle things such as it being the | second of three options where you need to check options 1 and 3 | every month, to it literally being checked by default and buried | in the middle of a "we are just checking up on you to make sure | you have all your options set correctly" splash screen. | lucb1e wrote: | Genuine question: why'd you want bills to be shipped on paper? | Is there some legal requirement to keep paper records in the | USA and you don't want to have to own a printer or something? | | Every time I get a paper bill I'm annoyed, like, just send me | an email, then I drag it into the right folder and it's done. | Speedy, sortable, searchable. (Of course you will want to have | back-ups, but one generally wants backups for one's files | anyway.) The weirdest instance of this is my electricity | company that has a fairly high price but also invests in | renewable energy and they send me _paper_ bills. Like, they of | all companies should get that I don 't want someone to drive to | my house to deliver information that, usually, I already knew | about anyway. Dutch tax office also takes their time to send me | letters from abroad... _two weeks after_ I already received it | digitally and opened it. They can see I read it on their | website, but they still post a physical letter more than a week | later. And it always contains "you owe us nothing & we owe you | nothing" because I don't live/work there anymore. So stupid, I | hate letters, so I'm really curious why you'd want this! | ryandrake wrote: | Yup, I've been fooled into going paperless on my utility bills | a number of times. No idea how I did it, AND they often get | "confused" when you want to restore paper service. I've had to | call PG&E a number of times recently and they still are failing | to send paper bills. | kerng wrote: | I dislike it when companies allow you to sign up via mobile, but | then dont allow you to cancel via the mobile app. | | I had this with Hello Fresh, where I had to log in on web to | cancel (which I had never done before) - seemed quite annoying | and I decided to never use the service again for that reason | alone. | ModernMech wrote: | I don't know if this counts as a dark pattern but it really | ticked me off when this happened: when YouTube on iPad changed to | require a paid subscription to play content while the screen is | turned off. What kind of fresh hell is that? I have to pay to use | a hardware feature? What's the next move, requiring me to | purchase a subscription to adjust the volume or the screen | brightness? | | Actually this reminds me of another annoyance: playing ads at a | higher volume than the content. I tend to listen to content very | softly to prevent hearing loss, and whenever an ad comes on I | find myself turning the volume down, only to turn it up again | when the content comes back. | sunshineforever wrote: | Thank you for posting this because that's the dark pattern that | I was trying to remember myself. This one has aggravated me | beyond anything else on the entire internet. I hope for the | return of newpipe soon. | [deleted] | dclusin wrote: | I think the biggest dark pattern is social platforms holding the | browser hostage instead of opening content in the users native | browser app. Social media sites are built on user generated | content. By keeping users in the app like this it puts the | website at an inherent disadvantage and prevents them from | providing a compelling first class experience that might compete | with facebook for attention, due to their inherent parent child | ui design. | | Anti trust regulators came after Microsoft for deep bundling of | functionality of browser and OS and I think they should do the | same for facebook, google, reddit, etc. for the web view. | devit wrote: | The Facebook app on my Android device doesn't do this. | fpig wrote: | What is _good_ about web sites trying to force users to use | their app instead? That itself one of the worst dark patterns | out there. | | Edit: If my comment looks confusing, the comment I replied to | has been edited. "compelling first class experience" is really | a more vague term for "web sites being able to push their app | on users" | dclusin wrote: | While I agree this is a regrettable practice, the social | media sites in question do the same thing too. The argument | that Facebook is acting in users best interest by preventing | websites from spamming users to use an app is incredibly self | serving and not really all that believable. | | I too wish it would go away, but both sites not having equal | access the users in a similar way is anti competitive imo. | Especially for businesses who increasingly need to | participate on these platforms due to the fact that so many | of their customers use their services. | fpig wrote: | I agree that this practice should go away - if you believe | that, then the goal should be to eliminate this shady | practice entirely, not try to make it _more_ prevalent like | you were suggesting before editing your comment. | dclusin wrote: | Agreed, sorry for editing after you replied. | bogwog wrote: | > What is good about web sites trying to force users to use | their app instead? | | If you're asking from the point of view of the social media | site, the "good" thing is that a native app can steal much | more personal information than a website. | ThrowawayR2 wrote: | I wonder of loot boxes in mobile and other video games would | count? Seems like it ought to. | dqv wrote: | Great I'm going to submit one about how the Apple iOS store | forces you to get rid of your old devices and buy new ones. | | They make it extremely inconvenient to find out which apps are | supported on your device. They don't hide the apps that aren't, | so you are forced to download the app and wait to check to see if | it's compatible or not. | jb1991 wrote: | > you are forced to download the app and wait to check to see | if it's compatible or no | | The App Store doesn't let me download apps that are not | compatible with my device. | dqv wrote: | >The App Store doesn't let me download apps that are not | compatible with my device. | | Let's not split hairs over this. | | I just got rid of my iPad that does. You tap "get" on the app | and after doing _something_ for 5-10 seconds it pops up a | modal that says it 's not compatible. | | Why was the app store showing apps to me that are not | compatible or, rather, why was there no way to filter out the | ones that are not compatible? | bogwog wrote: | > Why was the app store showing apps to me that are not | compatible or, rather, why was there no way to filter out | the ones that are not compatible? | | To show you what you're missing out by not buying the | latest iPad | lostlogin wrote: | I'm not sure what I want with this - on MacOS it's goddamn | infuriating trying to download an OS that you want to | install on a machine that isn't the one you are browsing | from. | | You can't just use the App Store and end up doing all sorts | of horrible things. | | I've commented on this before and had people send me links | that show you can do it in the US App Store, but I can't | from NZ. | dqv wrote: | Oh are you talking about how you how certain things are | hidden from search in the macOS app store? I found that | annoying too. I had an old machine that I wanted to | upgrade to Catalina and searching through the app store | gave no results. Some how I found this link[0] and it | magically brings me to macOS Catalina in the app store. | Why didn't it come up in the search? | | [0]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211683 | wyre wrote: | You aren't being forced to do anything. Apple already supports | their devices much longer than the industry standard. If you | don't like Apple stop using their products. | dqv wrote: | Everything you said is true but it still has no bearing on | the fact that it's a dark pattern to make it inconvenient to | have an old device. They have the means and technology to | filter out incompatible apps, but they've decided not provide | it. | Hnrobert42 wrote: | I don't think that is a dark pattern. | dqv wrote: | Could you elaborate on why you don't think it's a dark | pattern? | jrockway wrote: | I think this falls a little below the level of what should be a | federal crime. It's an annoying usability issue, but ultimately | which devices are supported is up to individual developers and | not Apple. (It cuts both ways: there are some apps that aren't | updated to run on the newest devices. So you could take that as | Apple encouraging you to keep your old device and to NOT | upgrade.) | | Think about it this way: you want to haul Apple into federal | court because they poorly cache app store search results on a | CDN. The DoJ will have to hire new expert attorneys to | prosecute this, and it could take years. That means they either | stop prosecuting other federal crimes while working on that | one, or your taxes increase to pay the new attorneys necessary | for this case. The ultimate outcome for Apple will be paying | some tiny fine that probably is less than a year's salary for a | software engineer and being forced to fix their CDN setup, | while the taxpayers pay millions of dollars. Best case. The | worst case could be years of legal costs for the government, | and absolutely nothing in return for the taxpayers. | | I think you have to choose your battles, and this isn't the | pick. Consumers aren't getting severely fucked, it's just kind | of annoying to some people. We can use our limited tax dollars | more effectively. | dqv wrote: | >So you could take that as Apple encouraging you to keep your | old device and to NOT upgrade. | | Does Apple show you apps that won't run on the newest | devices/OS versions in the app store? | | >It's an annoying usability issue, but ultimately which | devices are supported is up to individual developers and not | Apple. | | But Apple runs the store, so the onus on them is to present | the store in a way that gives me what is compatible with my | device. When I go to the physical store, I don't expect to | find kid's sizes in the adult clothing section (and vice | versa). Even if the "clothing developer" in question only | makes child sized clothes. | | >prosecute | | Whoa, hold on. We're in a thread asking for public comment on | dark patterns. | | Look at point 6 in the event announcement PDF: | | > What harms do dark patterns pose to consumers or | competition? For example, do certain dark patterns lead | consumers to _purchase products or services that they might | not otherwise have purchased_ , pay for products or services | without knowing or intending to, provide personal | information, _waste time_ , _spend more on a particular | product or service_ , remain enrolled in a service they might | otherwise cancel, or develop harmful usage habits? | | (emphasis mine) | | >Consumers aren't getting severely fucked, it's just kind of | annoying to some people. | | Sorry, I'm not understanding your point. Most dark patterns | _don 't_ severely fuck anyone and are just kind of annoying | to some people. I think that's the point of this FTC public | comment - to get a consensus on what dark patterns are. | [deleted] | saagarjha wrote: | Isn't there a literal "Compatibility" section in the App Store | listing where it tells you if the app will work on your device | or not? | dqv wrote: | As a user, I should be able to have the experience of | browsing an app store with only apps that are compatible with | my device and OS version. As a user and average consumer, it | was not obvious to me that there was a compatibility section | at all because I have to scroll past reviews and app privacy | to get that information. | vultour wrote: | There's a "Compatibility" section under each app which tells | you whether it works on your device. You can also click on it | so it tells you exactly which OS versions are supported. | dqv wrote: | So instead of filtering it out or graying out the "get" | button, I need to click on the link in the app store and find | the compatibility section (the last part of the page) to find | out if it's compatible? | | That's a dark pattern. | jackson1442 wrote: | It's been a looooong time since I've had this issue, but I | distinctly remember the "get" being grayed out (for | example, gps-dependent apps on a non gps-enabled iPad). Has | this regressed? | dqv wrote: | Yes. It's regressed. This video [0] is an example of what | happens, EXCEPT on mine the pause was considerably longer | before the "unable to purchase" pop up came up. | | [0]: https://youtu.be/lMMrU732w6Q?t=82 (and if you look | at the comments, you can see that I'm not the only | consumer frustrated by this issue) | zkid18 wrote: | Unpopular opinion, but as a developer I'm OK with using dark | patterns for a certain projects when it comes to pricing, but not | to churn prevention. | | In niches with low margins and high competition, dark patterns | are one of the few chances to survive and make money (ticket | aggregators, hotel aggregations) | | The user can pay $10 or $15 depends on how you communicate the | value almost with the same set of features. However, for the | product, the difference affects the business model and the unit | economy dramatically. | | Of course, subscription cancelling penalties sucks and should be | ban. | jfk13 wrote: | > I'm OK with using dark patterns for a certain projects when | it comes to pricing | | You're right, it's an unpopular opinion. If you're in a niche | where you have to use dark patterns to survive, grow a | conscience and find a different niche. | ck425 wrote: | I'm not sure if this counts as a dark pattern but any system with | a notification dot should allow you to disable it or change the | colour on it. | da39a3ee wrote: | This is in need of some context. What is a Dark Pattern and why | is it capitalized? | anoncow wrote: | The FTC should create a set of guidelines named for example "Good | Software Design Practices" (either directly or through an | industry standards body) which developers can follow voluntarily. | Companies or bodies should then be able to rate software | objectively based on the GSDP using a lay-public friendly star | rating. The rating could be further broken up into sub-ratings | for specific design sub-topics. | | This could then become a default way for companies to self- | appraise their software on distribution platforms. Anyone | including distribution platforms should be able to validate such | ratings based on certain objective criteria. | thysultan wrote: | MacOS keeps asking me to update software every night. dark | pattern. lawsuit incoming... | pcarolan wrote: | I think a more effective route forward here is for places like YC | to set standards for their portfolio companies. Only the | strongest investors can do this, but once they do, it will setup | a new playing field and the YC brand could mean 'no dark patterns | here' in the way that buying an Apple product signifies quality | hardware and privacy. It could act as an 'integrity' label that | companies purchasing software would use when evaluating new | products. YC companies are better than most at this, but I've | seen a few bad actors lately that have caused me to question | whether its true across the board. | novok wrote: | Consumers do not know what YC is, and I'm not sure if YC wants | to become a consumer brand certification. | bogwog wrote: | I used this site for years without knowing what YC was. | | EDIT: also, I still don't 100% know what it is. Afaik, it's | like shark tank but IRL for people in silicon valley. | pcarolan wrote: | YC, like all companies, is a brand. It is already expressed | by alumni when applying for a job. It is sought by employers | as a mark of validation that the person works hard and fast | and knows how to innovate. | | As YC scales and graduates more companies, they want to | optimize their return on investment. Those companies that | graduate from YC want to make sure their companies raise | capital at a premium when future fundraising and ultimately | IPOing or being acquired. The YC network is a thing in the VC | community and a mark of a high opportunity investment. | | Today, some purchasing managers are aware of its alumni | companies and use it as a litmus that the company is cutting | edge and innovative. Maybe most don't. Since sales ultimately | lead to higher company valuations, perhaps this is something | YC would want to focus on? ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-05-02 23:00 UTC)