[HN Gopher] Restaurant menu tricks (2020)
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Restaurant menu tricks (2020)
Author : marc__1
Score : 66 points
Date : 2021-05-08 16:25 UTC (6 hours ago)
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| swader999 wrote:
| Some of the best restaurants are the ones that are hopelessly bad
| at this kind of marketing and instead get by with great cooking.
| Small towns sometimes have these gems hiding away if you can find
| them.
| namelessoracle wrote:
| In fact people i know and myself see not using these tricks as
| a stronger signal of good food. After all the restaurant is
| going all in on their food instead of any tricks for the items
| on their menu.
| lordnacho wrote:
| I always joked that my parents' restaurant was authentic due
| to the spelling errors on the menu.
|
| I think it's actually for some truth to it, and perhaps
| Berksons paradox is the explanation. If you either make good
| food or market well, and there's selection based on a
| frontier of a mix of the two, you end up creating a
| correlation even where none existed in the underlying set. So
| places with crap marketing that survive are likely to be
| doing so because the food makes up for it.
| Raidion wrote:
| See every cheap (but tremendously tasty) mexican food taco
| truck or stand!
|
| I personally have noticed an "uncanny valley" of
| restaurants, where I'd much rather eat cheaply (see Chick-
| fil-a, taco trucks, local pizza shops, or a lot of Asian
| spots) or expensively (locally renowned restaurants) and
| ignore most everything in between. It's hard to pay 25
| dollars for an meal when it's going to be good but nothing
| special, when you could pay ~15 for something you'd enjoy
| just as much. The higher end resturants provide the "novel"
| experiences and flavors that make spending $35+ worth it.
| openthc wrote:
| I went to Ontario (California) for a consult gig. My host
| asked what I wanted for dinner and I suggested tacos. So
| he took me to some mall, with the fanciest Mexican
| resturant I've ever seen -- and all these really cool
| looking people in the outdoor seating, with fancy drinks.
| I said: "Ali, fuck this place. let me try" -- then we
| poped to this place: Fredy's Tacos
| (https://www.yelp.com/biz/fredys-tacos-restaurant-
| ontario). My guy was a little nervous to get in there.
| Tacos == BOMB!; Tortas == AMAZING!!! And the beers
| (Pacifico) were in a cooler outside the counter area, so
| when I said "un otro" the cook (Fredy?) just pointed like
| "get it yourself". `11/10 experience, muy authentico
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| >I went to Ontario (California) for a consult gig.
|
| When I was forced to travel for work now and again, my
| instincts were always to find a bar with a decent food
| menu. It's usually as good (better?) plus it was easier
| to buy a properly sized meal without all the extra
| filler.
|
| Also, extra bonus points for things that are a hassle to
| make at home (typically sushi). Restaurants lose their
| sparkle as you age. The Sysco truck goes to practically
| all of them anyway.
|
| There's something to be said for the super old school
| diners (typically Mexican restaurants in the places I
| grew up in), but those are towns that scarcely any HN
| readers would have wandered into.
| pvaldes wrote:
| > when I said "un otro" just pointed like "get it
| yourself"
|
| I can understand why. Next time don't use that, is
| incorrect (would translate as a strange "an, other"). The
| correct way would be either just "otra" (another) or "una
| mas" (one more), generally followed by a casual "por
| favor". Take in mind that beer is feminine in spanish so
| you have to use "otra" (not "otro").
|
| Many other alcoholic drinks are masculine, but are often
| served in a coup or bottle, that are feminine nouns. You
| can ask for "otro vino" or "un vino" but "una copa de
| vino" (a glass of wine) is also common. To use "un mas"
| instead the correct "uno mas" (one more) would be also a
| common mistake.
| chiph wrote:
| One of my favorite Mexican restaurants in Austin is just
| a walk up window with anti-theft bars on it:
|
| https://goo.gl/maps/dDpAuAfpW41BANxS9
| benjohnson wrote:
| Agreed! This quote from Noel Coward springs to mind:
|
| "I'll go through life either first class or third, but
| never in second."
| vostok wrote:
| How do you find these small town gems in the US?
|
| I've lived in a very expensive city and a medium cost of living
| city in the US and the lower quality of restaurants is the
| biggest difference for me.
|
| There are some very famous and very expensive restaurants, but
| even those places have been disappointing too frequently. It's
| often something really basic like the food being too salty.
|
| This wasn't as much of a problem in the very expensive city.
| It's unlikely that my taste buds have gotten more sensitive
| because I lived in the more expensive city at a younger age and
| taste buds get less sensitive as you get older to my knowledge.
|
| Almost every attempt at finding a small town gem has not really
| worked out for me in the US.
|
| In countries like France, I know that I can find small town
| gems just by checking the Michelin guide. I can go to Vonnas
| (population 3000) and find a great restaurant just by checking
| the Michelin guide. I would love to do that in the US.
| robocat wrote:
| Small (usually ethnic) places run by one chef or one family
| and not in the city centre are where I find the best food in
| my town in New Zealand (400,000). They also tend to be
| amazingly good value (or perhaps I optimise for that too?)
| But I am not sure how you could find them as a stranger to
| town.
|
| As a generalisation, I have found that high quality
| restaurants occur in towns where there is the demand for
| them. This requires that there is a significant population of
| customers who eat out enough, pay enough, and are discerning
| enough to keep restaurants up to standard.
|
| My town (Christchurch) doesn't really have the culture, so
| the quality of the majority of places isn't great. Wellington
| has a similar population but it has much better restaurants
| (including in the city centre), because the demographics of
| Wellington tends towards more disposable income and more
| foodie culture, so the people that go out often really know
| what tastes good.
|
| The other significant issue with New Zealand is that the
| majority of restaurants are delivered their produce and food
| by restaurant supplier companies; food which often is no
| better than what you may get at the supermarket. You can
| really notice the difference when you eat home grown veges or
| home kill meat - some of the most memorable meals I have had
| have been simple ones at people's homes. There needs to be a
| food culture to care about taste enough for restaurants to
| seek out better tasting food ingredients.
|
| Take care when asking locals for advice, including young
| people working in hospo. They are often not foodies so they
| don't suggest something that is any good... instead they
| might mention a new place or a popular place (or even worse,
| a tourist place).
| screye wrote:
| > find these small town gems in the US
|
| Often the local subreddit is a great place to look. Also, old
| trip advisor Q&A threads if it is moderately touristy. (But
| not reviews)
|
| I really like the Eater guide. Especially their posts where
| it is popular local chefs talking about their favorite
| restaurants. These posts aren't usually highlighted to you
| have to go digging a bit to find it.
|
| Local youtubers are also great resources, if you know how to
| find them. The fewer subscribers the better.
|
| Yelp can work sometimes. Yelp's top restaurants are usually
| 'mass appeal' places. If there is a top rated restaurant that
| looks totally out of place, it is very likely a local gem.
|
| If nothing works then go for the classic combination:
| "Locally owned - Long queue - Fast service"
|
| Special green-flags:
|
| - Ethnic restaurant has more ethnic people than white people.
|
| - Asian restaurant only has photos and no English menu
|
| - Indian restaurant is full + a 3 star rating on Yelp
|
| - Ethnic restaurant does not have the name of the home
| country or cuisine in it.
|
| - American restaurant that's open for only half the day, or
| till supplies last
| ghaff wrote:
| In the US, it's probably most likely to be regional food.
| Like I've had good Southwestern food in smaller places in New
| Mexico. On the other hand, not really middle of nowhere
| small. In my experience, the pickings are pretty slim in most
| small towns.
| vostok wrote:
| I would love to hear how to find these places! I'm in the
| midwest, but I'm willing to travel for food.
|
| Southwestern, tacos, Boreal, tagine, American, sandwiches,
| Polish, sushi, Tamil, no cuisine. It's all good to me.
|
| Some farms and wineries have restaurants out here, but they
| don't have too many reviews so it's hard to tell if they're
| good or not.
| bshep wrote:
| Cant tell you how to find em but one that sticks in
| memory is in Phoenix, Az, me and the wife found this by
| accident, it was so good we came back a couple of time
| during our stay in Phoenix.
|
| http://www.lesanssoucirestaurant.com/
| ghaff wrote:
| If you're staying in a B&B, the host will often have a
| list of recommended places. Yes, reviews are hit and
| miss, although still better than nothing. You do have to
| sort through a lot. I live in a small town and the
| pickings in general are slim. But, there's a good
| restaurant (yes, attached to a winery) maybe 20 minutes
| down the road.
| rntz wrote:
| The article appears to misrepresent the result of a study it
| links to. From the article:
|
| > A study conducted by researchers in Switzerland found that a
| wine labelled with a difficult-to-read script was liked more by
| drinkers than the same wine carrying a simpler typeface.
|
| But from the abstract of the study linked to (https://www.science
| direct.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09503...):
|
| > Fluency was manipulated via an easy- or difficult-to-read font.
| Results showed that there was no effect of the consumption
| domain. However, the wine was liked more in the high-fluency
| condition compared to the low-fluency condition. Thus, the
| results indicate that a wine tastes better if the labeled visual
| information can be processed relatively fluently.
|
| Which is exactly the opposite.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| There is some signalling menus can do with just the prices too:
| EUR 12,75
|
| OK, nothing fancy. EUR 13
|
| Right, no cents (works with pounds and dollars too obviously).
| Restaurant is a bit more upscale, or would like to look the part.
| 13
|
| Very modern, possibly posh, certainly arrogant in its branding
| (really off-putting when used by a coffee joint or pastry shop).
| (no prices)
|
| Yeah, not for the likes of most us.
|
| Special bonus example for Europeans: E 12,75
|
| Restaurant owner asked his nephew to type out the menu or
| similar. Food could still be good though.
| raverbashing wrote:
| Yeah if you put just a number, no unities and no decimals my
| opinion of this restaurant is also going to be just an integer
| number, below 1.
|
| Like this https://www.brooklynbarmenus.com/
|
| I think it might be actually illegal to not have prices on
| menus
| mellavora wrote:
| Used to be there was the "gentlemans" and the "ladies" menu.
| Difference was the 'ladies' menu didn't have the prices.
|
| That was another time/age, but it was certainly legal.
| ziml77 wrote:
| That actually seems useful. Not dividing by gender, but
| instead the idea of giving a different menu to the person
| who's paying and the one(s) who are being treated. It's
| tough placing an order when you're being taken out to
| dinner and can see the prices because you're going to avoid
| something you might really want if it's more expensive than
| the average of the menu.
| ghaff wrote:
| I think that would be very hard in practice without prior
| arrangement. The restaurant has no way of knowing the
| circumstances of the dinner and the person doing the
| paying. Getting the most expensive thing on the menu may
| be a stretch for the host or it may of no consequence.
| (And the server won't even know if you're splitting the
| bill.)
| ziml77 wrote:
| If it's a place you're going to on a reservation you can
| work that out ahead of time. It wouldn't be something
| that would be the default at restaurants, but it's not
| impossible.
| secabeen wrote:
| Yep, I did this for my mom one time. I was treating at a
| fancy restaurant, and I didn't want her picking based on
| price, so I had them removed.
| dylan604 wrote:
| >Very modern, possibly posh, certainly arrogant in its branding
| (really off-putting when used by a coffee joint or pastry
| shop).
|
| Why? For me, I'd just assume what ever the local currency was
| is implied. Maybe that's just me being in the US, so there's
| only $. However, when I've been to other non-european
| countries, this was also a safe assumption. However, even in
| Europe, would it not be safe to assume euros, unless in the UK,
| then assume pounds? Am I just being too simple?
| Freak_NL wrote:
| Even when the currency sign is dropped, you would usually
| have a notation like 12.--, 12.--, or 12.00 (or with commas
| instead of periods as decimal separator depending on locale)
| to signify that it is a price and not just a random number.
| You could easily guess that from the context, but it is a
| deliberate circumvention of convention nonetheless. Using
| just '12' also signals that fractional units of that currency
| are not something that establishment deals with (which is
| fine for Japanese Yen or South Korean Won, but comes across
| as rude for Euro, and most Dollars and Pounds).
| miglmj wrote:
| This is less about the practicalities of "what currency are
| they charging me?", which is rarely if ever a legitimate
| concern of a customer. This relates more to the presentation
| of the menu itself, where excluding the dollar sign is
| something posh restaurants do, and many others imitate. As
| for why they do so, I don't know of a reason beyond the
| appeal of minimalism
| vharuck wrote:
| Menu design is a great candidate for psychology experiments. It's
| easy to do A/B testing by giving different menus to different
| tables at the same time. The end goal is money spent or items
| sold, which is a simple number you'll always know exactly.
|
| However, you have to be careful to not overreach in inferring why
| people do things:
|
| >"The dollar sign is a pain point that reminds the diner that
| they are spending money," says Allen. "By just using the figure,
| or even better, writing it out in words, it can reduce that
| pain."
|
| This sounds like a rationalization. It could be true. But if I
| were a menu designer, I wouldn't try to use it to predict
| anything beyond including currency symbols.
| philjohn wrote:
| An old boss of mine had a rule - he never ate at a restaurant
| that had pictures of the food, either on display, or in the menu.
|
| Interesting that the study cited says that pictures of the food
| make you mentally taste it.
| tyingq wrote:
| Was the rule meant to, for example, help your boss lose weight?
| Hopefully it wasn't a rule that he/she thought meant better
| food. Ruling out restaurants with pictures of the food would
| zap quite a lot of my favorite places across my lifetime.
| philjohn wrote:
| I think it was him being a bit tongue in cheek - and maybe
| assuming food on menu's = less good.
| avalys wrote:
| In most of the US, "pictures of food on the menu" is
| associated with low-end but highly marketed national chains
| that serve large amounts of unexceptional food - Applebees,
| Cheesecake Factory, etc.
| tyingq wrote:
| Ah, ok. But it's also true for all the various strip-mall
| mom-and-pop Thai, Viet, Lebanese, etc, places I go to.
| mdoms wrote:
| Your boss arbitrarily ruled out entire categories of food. All
| of the best Chinese and Malaysian restaurants, for example,
| will have pictures. It's just how they do it.
| thesz wrote:
| The main outcome from there, for me, at the very least, is that
| we all have synesthesia - ones have it stronger, others weaker.
| But we all have it.
|
| "Round fond is associated with sweeter taste" - this is it.
|
| Synesthesia helps make perception of world more vibrant and
| memorable.
| ehw3 wrote:
| FWIW there is some commentary on this today on the Columbia
| "statsmodeling" blog:
|
| https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2021/05/08/blast-from...
| blhack wrote:
| I think there is a bell curve happening here. Very very cheap
| restaurants will have simple menus written on paper (and possibly
| laminated).
|
| Middle tier, chain restaurants (like the cheescake factory) will
| have heavy menus with elaborate food descriptions and departments
| of people who work on optimizing them.
|
| But then at the very high end, it actually wraps back around. The
| nicest restaurants I've been to will often have a paper menu,
| with a very, very small selection of things on it.
|
| My personal opinion is that some of these things are actually a
| counter-indicator. If you obviously put a lot of thought into
| your menu, bought an obnoxious folder for it, have lavish
| descriptions, etc. it's because you are leaning into the
| _perception_ of your food /atmosphere, rather than the reality of
| it.
|
| To make my point: here is the menu for the french laundry:
| https://portlandfoodanddrink.com/because-we-all-need-to-see-...
| L_Rahman wrote:
| The French Laundry was only $250 back in 2017? No wonder it was
| booked out forever, they could (and I believe now are) charging
| easily 2x that number.
| eigen wrote:
| ranges from $350 for the dining room, $450 for outdoor dining
| room, to $500 for a private dining room.
|
| https://www.exploretock.com/tfl/
| philjohn wrote:
| Similar menu for Quo Vadis in Soho, literally just the dish
| name, no bloviated descriptions
| https://www.quovadissoho.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/A-...
| shard wrote:
| And similar to the French Laundry menu, there are many
| indicators that a lot of thought has been placed into this
| menu and is thus a high end restaurant. You can see many of
| the techniques mentioned in the article: removing the money
| symbol, groupings of 3-6 items, use of long and fancy words
| for the dish names (in lieu of subtitle description). The
| font choices and layout are also clear indicators.
| philjohn wrote:
| If you're ever in London I'd definitely recommend it,
| interesting history, it's a private members club now (the
| restaurant is open to public bookings though) and the
| building has a storied history, being a brothel and the one
| time abode of Karl Marx at certain points.
| 542458 wrote:
| Agreed. One of the best restaurants I've ever eaten at had a
| single 8.5x11 slip of paper for the main menu (and a weighty
| tome for the wine menu).
|
| Another place we never even got a menu - the food just started
| appearing, much to our confusion! Apparently it was a prix fixe
| multi-course meal arrangement, and you get whatever you get -
| the server had assumed we knew. The food was fabulous, but it
| took three hours longer than we had planned to spend.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| > Apparently it was a prix fixe multi-course meal
| arrangement, and you get whatever you get
|
| I find this unfathomable. What if you have allergies? I guess
| just don't eat there. But the server assumed you knew? Wild.
| L_Rahman wrote:
| Places like this ask about your dietary restrictions during
| either the reservation or before the beginning of service.
| The chef will make on the fly adjustments based on each
| diner's needs.
|
| My brother and I went to Eleven Madison Park back in 2016
| and mentioned my allergies ahead of time. Not only did they
| plan alternatives for me, they even included them in the
| printed out menu that they give to each diner as they leave
| as a memento of the meal.
| schemathings wrote:
| Funny, Eleven Madison Park's chef was the subject of
| NPR's How I Built This last week
| https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this ..
| May 3 episode.
| ghaff wrote:
| Normally, I would assume it would be at least written on a
| blackboard somewhere. That said, outside of the US, my
| sense is that there's less attention paid to food allergy
| concerns so, if you have anything of note, it's mostly on
| you to be pro-active and careful.
| username_taco wrote:
| Certainly not true in Italy - as a person who eats gluten
| free, it was an order of magnitude easier to find
| alternative options in many cities in Italy than it is in
| San Francisco.
| dEnigma wrote:
| That's certainly not the case for the EU.
|
| "All hospitality establishments in Europe are now
| required to declare ingredients contained in their foods
| that may induce allergies or food intolerances."
|
| https://www.wko.at/branchen/tourismus-
| freizeitwirtschaft/gas...
| jghn wrote:
| As L_Rahman said, typically you register your allergies
| with your reservation.
|
| That said, it's entirely possible they're unable/unwilling
| to accommodate every allergy and/or preference. There are
| well regarded restaurants near me that only do prix fixe
| tasting menus that I don't dine at as I know based on what
| they tend to serve that the likelihood of me being served
| things I won't want is high, and at that price point it's
| not worth it to me.
| poloopolo wrote:
| As they say, the onus is on the allergic to survive not on
| the allergen
| nactivint wrote:
| I have a fairly mild case of Avoidant/Restrictive Food
| Intake Disorder (ARFID), and I wound up at one of these
| places with co-workers in San Francisco one time. This is
| basically a nightmare scenario for me. I'm socially
| expected to eat, and I'm presented with strange dishes and
| lots of unwanted attention when I inevitably don't eat.
|
| But we spoke with the server, and she found me a dish from
| the prix fixe arrangement that I could eat, and spent the
| night just making sure there was always some of that dish
| on the table.
|
| Everything went better than expected. Sure, I don't have to
| be worried about death from being exposed to food I won't
| eat, but I could've called ahead, and would've, if the
| stakes were that high.
|
| I guess all that's to say: good restaurants are pretty
| accommodating, even when they aren't doing the normal menu
| thing. It's really not that crazy.
| shard wrote:
| That's a good point about paper menus wrapping around to the
| high end. Another thing to note would be the difference between
| the paper menus. At the low end, you have thin and flimsy paper
| being used, possibly tri-folded as they are also take-out
| menus, with low quality printing and little attention paid to
| graphic design or fonts. Food descriptions are likely to be
| nothing more than a common name for the dish (e.g. fish and
| chips, pad thai noodles). At the other end, there's no way to
| tell what paper is used for the French Laundry menu, but maybe
| it's bone or eggshell in a tasteful thickness. The font,
| design, and especially the wording (utilizing many of the
| techniques listed in the article) all indicate that a lot of
| thought has been put into the menu and thus is a high end
| restaurant.
| canadianfella wrote:
| Prix fixe?
| atombender wrote:
| Some restaurants think they're too good for traditional menus.
| I few years ago I went to Diner, one of the hippest Brooklyn
| spots at the time (one evening, Bill Murray was hanging out
| there, pretending a slice of lime was his teeth). They refused
| to have a paper menu. Instead, the waiter would verbally tell
| you about all 15 or so items, while casually scribbling each
| item in shorthand on the paper tablecloth. After they'd gone,
| you'd have forgotten most of the things they had mentioned, so
| you'd try to decipher the scribbles that the waiter had left.
| It was pretty silly and frustrating (and the food was merely
| adequate).
| teachingassist wrote:
| > The nicest restaurants I've been to will often have a paper
| menu, with a very, very small selection of things on it.
|
| Yes! Because [they are signalling that] they update it and
| print it each day.
|
| According to what is available fresh, from the market, on that
| day.
| hypertele-Xii wrote:
| The (IMO) best restaurant in my town has a small chalkboard as
| the menu with these three items on it: 10
| 15 18
|
| These are the prices for the three portion sizes. The chef
| makes what he makes.
| gruez wrote:
| That seems a bit too simplistic. How much bigger is the 18
| portion size compared to 10? Are you getting the same dish,
| just scaled up, or is it a different dish?
| bigtech wrote:
| Well, it's 8 bigger, isn't it?
| Freak_NL wrote:
| You could just ask of course.
| bborud wrote:
| Perhaps, but very effective.
|
| Most good restaurants I've been to don't actually have a
| menu you choose from - you get what's seasonal and what the
| kitchen has planned for. The only real inputs are how much
| you are going to eat and how drunk you want to be at the
| end of it.
|
| I've been to one restaurant in the lower price range that
| also adopted this concept, though with a twist. There's not
| really a menu to choose from, you get what you get, but the
| waiter will update the blackboard with "what you get if you
| order now".
|
| The reason I prefer this is because it tends to focus on
| what's seasonal and what is the chef good at.
| dec0dedab0de wrote:
| One of my favorite places just had a chalk board. They would
| erase dishes when they ran out of ingredients, and add ones
| when their driver would come back with groceries
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| They customize the menu for you, with you and your party's
| names on it, at the Inn at Little Washington.
|
| The food descriptions are sufficient but sparse also
| torgoguys wrote:
| I don't know--that French Laundry menu feels pretentious to me
| too. For example, many, many items in the description have
| unnecessary modifiers. If going for simplicity, they wouldn't
| be telling me it is "Maine" lobster tail, "French Laundry
| garden" cabbage, "Sacramento Delta" asparagus, "King Richard"
| leeks, etc. All of that is selling people on the idea it is
| quality, not simply trusting that the result speaks for itself.
| If I trust their reputation, I should be able to trust they
| select a good lobster tail, cabbage, asparagus and leek without
| them trying to sell it to me. Those sorts of extra food
| descriptions put me off (in the same way that similar modifiers
| in a, for example, Blue Apron ad do...)
|
| And throwing in unnecessary french words is just as off putting
| to my sensibilities (but can be forgiven, given their name). So
| is omitting dollar signs. Or unnecessary italics. I could go
| on. My point is they absolutely are trying to put out a
| perception of quality food/atmosphere with their menu design,
| just in a different way and with fewer items than they
| Cheesecake Factory version. They're just doing the humble brag
| version of the same thing.
| indymike wrote:
| "The more description you have the higher the value of the item
| and the lower the price seems in the customer's head"
|
| I'm not sure having longer descriptions is so much a trick as it
| lets the customer buy with more confidence. The customer knows
| they are getting what they want, and when they get it, they know
| what to expect.
| xmprt wrote:
| It's more like saying if you have a two great dishes and one
| has 5 ingredients but the other has 7 ingredients, you'll be
| able to charge more for the one with 7 ingredients because the
| customer feels like they're getting more bang for their buck.
| mdoms wrote:
| I wouldn't believe a word of this nonsense. Anyone who is aware
| of the reproducibility crisis in soft psychological sciences
| would be very wary of it.
| injidup wrote:
| The most obvious trick is that there is always at least one crazy
| priced dish on the menu that almost nobody ever orders but it is
| placed there so that in comparison everything else looks like a
| great deal.
| gregoriol wrote:
| Like the iPhone Pro Max
| mbtamuli wrote:
| https://archive.is/6TDBP
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