[HN Gopher] Remains of nine Neanderthals found in cave south of ... ___________________________________________________________________ Remains of nine Neanderthals found in cave south of Rome Author : Anthony-G Score : 142 points Date : 2021-05-09 12:30 UTC (10 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com) | yhoneycomb wrote: | Can someone who knows more about anthropology explain to me what | makes Neanderthals their own species and not just a separate | race? | nicklecompte wrote: | The short answer is that it is far from a settled question - | many people say "Homo sapiens neanderthalis" as the proposed | subspecies. The fact that modern humans and Neanderthals | crossbred and apparently had viable offspring is strong | evidence for this understanding (but not necessarily | conclusive; sometimes mules are fertile). | | That said, Neanderthals rapidly went extinct after modern human | contact, and are vastly genetically different from us compared | to any two randomly chosen modern humans. They do not appear to | have formed especially sophisticated technology or formed any | society as complex as a simple tribe. So there are still | meaningful _biological_ differences between Neanderthals and | modern humans that don't require the delicate machinery of | anthropology to understand. | | Note: a difficulty here is that "species" is actually a very | fuzzy concept, one that Nature itself doesn't seem to care much | about. "Subspecies" is even more vague. | | Outside of modern humans (Homo sapiens sapiens) there had been | only one other conclusively identified "race"[1] of Homo | sapiens, the Homo sapiens idaltu. Perhaps there will be more | evidence to put Neanderthals in there as well, but the | consensus is that they were a separate but closely-related | species. | | [1] "Race" in the scientific sense as a synonym for subspecies, | not the social sense of "ethnic group, but with more negative | overtones." | fpoling wrote: | Modern humans have very low genetic diversity. There are more | genetic variations among apes in a single group than among | all humans on the whole planet. A typical interpretation of | this is that we are descendants of small group of survivors, | but whatever the reason the consequences is that the genetic | variation between Neanderthals and humans can be in fact | within normal variation within single species, we just do not | have enough data. | [deleted] | pedrosorio wrote: | The answer is that species is a fuzzy concept defined a long | time ago: https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/are-neanderthals-same- | species... | | https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Homo-sapiens-and-Neanderthals-... | jasonwatkinspdx wrote: | So, the root problem here is that species are not defined by | crisp barriers, particularly when we're talking about early | homonids. So the old elementary school definition of species as | reproductive compatibility is just one thing considered today | in choosing where to put the line. | | Other considerations are morphology and genetic drift. By both | those measures Neanderthals are different enough to justify | being a separate species, though there is some debate. Take a | look at this diagram from wiki and you can see that the | evolution of humans was not some sort of clean branching tree, | but a messy web including substantial horizontal gene transfer: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_human_evolution#/media/... | | Race is a social construct with a tenuous connection to | underlying biology. | suifbwish wrote: | Because 19th century English majors were masquerading as | scientists. | briefcomment wrote: | Nine Neanderthals were hunted by a pack of Hyenas? Wow, didn't | realize Hyenas could be so aggressive, and couldn't be warded off | by sticks and maybe fire. | matco11 wrote: | that's not what they say it happened. The human remains | accumulated there over time. | | From the article: | | > Experts believe the individuals lived in different time | periods. Some bones could be as old as 50,000 to 68,000 years, | whereas the most ancient remains are believed to be 100,000 | years old. | lostlogin wrote: | It's surprising to me how large those bone fragments are. | Hyenas crush bone and have spectacularly strong jaws. If that | cave was somewhere they lived or rested, I'd have expected | any bones to be completely destroyed by chewing, yet the | photo doesn't show that. | masklinn wrote: | Hyenas eat bones to supplement their calcium and phosphorus | intake. Well-fed hyenas without such deficiencies would | likely not bother. | the_af wrote: | A misconception about Hyenas is that they are primarily | scavengers. They are not -- they are hunters, and pretty | aggressive at that. I read more than once that the traditional | relationship between lions and hyenas as popular culture has it | is actually backwards: hyenas mostly hunt, and lions mostly | steal their kills. | | Also, a single lion (or two) facing a pack of hyenas is in dire | peril. Hyenas are clever, strong and dangerous. There are | YouTube videos about this. | officialjunk wrote: | also hyenas can open doors with lever handles. there was one | that escaped into the hallways at a university lab while i | was there. luckily no one was hurt. | david38 wrote: | I would have have given a kidney to see that. | dogma1138 wrote: | They might oblige you for one. | officialjunk wrote: | it was sedated, but still a danger. not sure how it | initially got loose, but it was assumed that it wouldn't | be able to leave the room, which quickly was disproven. | progre wrote: | Like this one. Wanna see a scared lion? | https://youtu.be/a5V6gdu5ih8 | _dps wrote: | I like this video a lot, both because it shows the lion in | peril against the pack of hyenas but also because it shows | that it only takes one additional lion to change the | balance completely. When the second lion shows up around | 2:50 the hyenas just disperse and don't even bother | fighting. | csomar wrote: | The first lion seems in a bad shape, though. That being | said, the video mentions that he strayed a bit from his | family's territory. Which suggests that lions are not | that safe alone. | tvhahn wrote: | Obligatory: https://youtu.be/IPiyo332Gks | | Ntwadumela - "he who greets with fire" | rmk wrote: | If you read the article, you will see that the individuals were | dragged into the cave over a span of tens of thousands of | years. They were not hunted en-masse. | pengaru wrote: | Hyenas are notorious for being assholes | | But any carnivorous pack animal is just an Alpha's decision to | attack away from being a problem. The scarcer food gets, the | more riskier sources they'll pursue. | nicklecompte wrote: | They could have been ill or mostly elderly - in fact that seems | quite probable. And we don't know much about Neanderthal | behavior but they may have been less able to outwit/intimidate | hyenas than modern humans. | | That said, if "pack" means 50 hyenas, 10 humans with primitive | spears could quickly run into trouble. In the wild hyena packs | can be as large as 100. | gostsamo wrote: | It took thousands of years to make them nine. The bones are | from different periods. | rmk wrote: | If the first remains were found in 1939, how was there a gap of | 80+ years before further remains were found? Is there someone | who's familiar with archeology who can explain how? | masklinn wrote: | Looking at NESPOS, it seems like there have been minor | discoveries (mandibles) in 2002: | | https://www.nespos.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=29887333 | | https://www.nespos.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=29887335 | | > Is there someone who's familiar with archeology who can | explain how? | | Lack of funding, lack of opportunity, ill-luck, the site might | be large as well so if the fossils were not obviously visible | it can take a long time to find them, especially as you'd want | to be very careful in order to avoid both damaging fossils and | damaging (and possibly bringing down) the cave itself. | bena wrote: | Fossilization is rare. It's as simple as that. | masklinn wrote: | You might have misunderstood GP's question: remains were | found _in this exact cave_ in 1939, they 're wondering why | there's such a gap in a cave known to have held fossils. | | Dozens of remains have been found elsewhere in europe in the | meantime. There have been so many such discoveries that the | Wikipedia List of Neanderthal fossils doesn't even bother | listing them, only a dozen "notable" finds. | thedogeye wrote: | Discovering I am 4% Neanderthal was one of the strangest days of | my life. Thanks 23andMe! | juskrey wrote: | 23andMe also thanks for your data | dang wrote: | " _Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents._ " | | https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html | ljf wrote: | Snap I wonder how closely we are related? | PicassoCTs wrote: | And thank you random citizen, for offering the DNA of yours and | your family + decedents to all insurance companies out there. | dang wrote: | " _Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and | generic tangents._ " | | https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html | solipsism wrote: | The paternalistic lecturing around here is unreal. | Grandparent didn't ask for your opinion about 23andme privacy | policies, and it's not remotely on topic. | Amezarak wrote: | To be fair, you aren't making the decision just for | yourself when you sell your data to 23andme. You're doing | it for all your relatives and descendants too. The GP made | the pint flippantly but I think it is worth seriously | considering whether business models like that should be | allowed. | solipsism wrote: | Nitpicking individuals is not likely to address that | problem. And it wasn't even close to the subject of | conversation. This is simple common decency. It also | happens to be HN guidelines: | | _Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and | generic tangents_ | garmaine wrote: | It is illegal for insurance companies to use that data (in | the US at least). | simple_phrases wrote: | No, it's only illegal for health insurance providers to | discriminate based on genetic data, but other types of | insurers are free to use it. The legislation that makes it | illegal also doesn't apply if your employer employs less | than 15 people. | raister wrote: | Naively speaking, 23andMe cannot trade your data to | anybody... | koheripbal wrote: | They obviously cooperate with subpoenas they receive, and I | would not ve surprised if a data breach happens at some | point | | I wonder if there is an anonymous version of the service. | bpodgursky wrote: | There is absolutely no way an insurance company would | risk using stolen genetic data to tweak their premiums. | | Would they love to buy the data legally? Of course. But | they are not going to buy it off of Russian hackers. | scrapcode wrote: | Since it has already been brought up... is there a | hypothetical way to anonymously submit your data? Say, an | alias and using a Visa gift card, perhaps? | wmiel wrote: | Even if there was, you need to be aware that the DNA has | much more personal information than your name and | surname, there can be multiple Joe Does, but probably | just you with your DNA. Also Joe Doe doesn't tell | anything about your race, sex, appearance, nor conditions | while DNA can. Using the DNA you can be traced even if | you submit it anonymously e.g. one of your relatives may | upload their DNA which will point to you. | thaumasiotes wrote: | > Also Joe Doe doesn't tell anything about your race, | sex, appearance, nor conditions while DNA can. | | Strange thing to say. Joe Doe is male, and Anglophone. | PicassoCTs wrote: | https://www.businessinsider.com/why-gsk- | invested-300-million... | | They sell it to drug makers for studies.. and if they sell | metadata to this pairing (drug + your id) this is a | giveaway for inherited genetic diseases. | BurningFrog wrote: | It's hard for me to be upset at my data helping cure | disease and save lives like this. | charia wrote: | It's very naive to assume it'll only ever be used for | benevolent purposes. | | The situation the above commenter was bringing up was | that in the near future your genetic information has a | good chance of being used by insurance companies pre- | judge you, your offspring and your relatives to raise or | lower healthcare rates based on information found in that | data. | oh_sigh wrote: | It's very naive to assume any information will only be | used for benevolent purposes. | | The DMV has my picture. In the near future there is a | good chance that it will be used to conduct a racial | purge of black people in the US. | | Anyone who has their picture taken is naive to me. | frutiger wrote: | > pre-judge you | | If it's based off accurate genetic data, is it still | prejudgment? We already accept that car insurance is | higher for young males without getting mad about it. | | Using all available data to make a proper risk assessment | seems like a reasonable thing to do. | DangitBobby wrote: | I see this as an extension of the idea that we should not | be the sole bearer of the consequences of burdens that | are not our fault. Where is the fairness in my having | both a shortened lifespan and the financial devastation | of a chronic, terminal illness? There is none. | | (This was meant as a reply to a sibling comment but the | "reply" button is absent). | BurningFrog wrote: | If your genetics predispose you for a shorter life, you | can benefit financially by not having to save for | retirement. | DangitBobby wrote: | Genetic predisposition is not a sure thing, so I think | most people would still save for retirement, genetics | aside. I'm somewhat convinced that I will die young of | health complications or social strife in the wake of | global warming, but I am still saving for retirement. In | any case, I think it is unreasonable to claim that it | evens out somehow. It's unfortunate that most people | don't learn how strong an advantage it is to be in good | health until they aren't anymore. | BurningFrog wrote: | We know my genetic info is being used today in research | that cures disease and saves lives. | | I sleep well knowing that. | | You're saying that there is a "good chance" that some | time in the future US insurance companies will illegally | use this info to deny people insurance. | | I disagree with that probability analysis. Time will | tell. | oh_sigh wrote: | OP only offered their own DNA, and received a service they | desired in return. | rvense wrote: | Aren't all Europeans? | rantwasp wrote: | it's more like 1.5-2% typically | tomjakubowski wrote: | Every continent has some Neanderthal DNA flowing around. | Neanderthals were all over Eurasia, and some of their hybrid | descendants moved to Africa. | | https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/everyone- | has-n... | jonnycomputer wrote: | These headlines kept popping up an image of a comedy flick in | which ... | | A family of neanderthals vacationing to Rome .. | | got lost on their tour bus ... | | driven by Roberto Benigni ... | | Silly I know. | | https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102536/mediaviewer/rm261748787... | eternalban wrote: | The sheep romance dialog is hysterically funny. It was a Roman | Catholic priest that was driven by Benigni's character, | however. | LightG wrote: | I don't get it. How did they get to Rome from Florida? | | And I thought Italy was on the US no-fly covid red list? | | The plot thickens. | | Oh come on ... you know you laughed. | redis_mlc wrote: | Florida currently is one of the few US states that represents | American traditional values, independence and freedom. | | Gov. Ron DeSantis will likely be elected US President shortly. | | So I guess the joke's on you, Marxist. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_DeSantis | jonnycomputer wrote: | I think there is a rule about humor on HN somewhere. /s | Tagbert wrote: | But a rule about humor would not apply in this case | hkt wrote: | The wording of this title was sufficiently ambiguous that I | assumed the Neanderthals had died recently. This changed the | story very significantly..! | | Still, amazing find, and a wonderful reminder that there is much | to discover in the archaeological record, wherever we go. | f6v wrote: | It'd be cool if the dental calculus was preserved. The microbiome | sequencing can tell a lot about how people (in a sense that we | have some neanderthal DNA) and microbes co-evolved [0]. | | [0] https://doi.org/10.1038/nature21674 | ljf wrote: | The article explains that tartar has been tested - that in this | instance is the same thing as calculus | https://johnrcarsondds.com/plaque-tartar-calculus-difference... ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-05-09 23:00 UTC)