[HN Gopher] A review of correlations between big five personalit... ___________________________________________________________________ A review of correlations between big five personality types and life outcomes Author : dynm Score : 213 points Date : 2021-05-09 17:00 UTC (5 hours ago) (HTM) web link (dynomight.net) (TXT) w3m dump (dynomight.net) | de_keyboard wrote: | Anyone done a correlation analysis of Big-5 traits and favourite | programming languages? | thinkingemote wrote: | Or Emacs and Vim users.... | hyko wrote: | _we can infer that we're at an equilibrium point with no real | advantage either way_ | | We can do no such damn thing! This analysis completely conflates | natural selection and sexual selection, and ignores the role of | genetic drift. | jawns wrote: | I think a lot of this analysis is tautological -- meaning that | when you boil it down, you're just saying that things are as you | have defined them to be. | | For instance, take a Big Five trait such as agreeableness. How do | we know that a person is agreeable? Because we define | agreeableness in a certain way and then measure the degree to | which someone conforms to the definition. If that measurement | includes questions such as, "Do others find you easy to get along | with?" then of course there's going to be a negative correlation | with loneliness, because you've essentially defined it that way. | | I am the author of Correlated.org, which commits many different | types of statistical errors for humor's sake, so this leaps out | at me. By the way, for a surprisingly vast number of things, | agreeableness is quite predictive. Food preferences, public | policy positions, and even willingness to answer poll questions | :) | anbende wrote: | While this is true for a lot of common psychological | constructs, the Big Five were not defined according to | agreement or consensus. The definitions were driven by the | lexical hypothesis whereby the wide variety of personality | descriptive adjectives in human language were factor analyzed | and found to cluster into 5 distinct factors. | | So this isn't tautological in the way that you've described, | though it is certainly related to the way human beings describe | each other and the way that instantiates in human language. | | Source 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_hypothesis | | Source 2: I'm a psychologist and did research in this area | vlovich123 wrote: | Humorism was a field of academic study for two millennia | before germ theory demonstrated how laughable the entire | field was. It's always important to remember that doing | research in a field doesn't necessarily mean that the field | itself is on a solid foundation that maps to reality. | Psychology and psychiatry really do struggle to demonstrate | statistically meaningful results behind most therapies (CBT | is perhaps a notable exception, although even there results | can be mixed). Analyses like the big 5 are squarely in the | "let me read your tea leaves" camp of "science" IMO. They | basically play a trick of "sure, the other personality | theories were bogus but this time we did stumble upon a good | way of characterizing it" while taking at face value that the | entire endeavor as valid. Neuroscience has a bit more behind | it because it's actually rooted in quantifiable measurements | somewhat and even there it's difficult. It's like trying to | reverse-engineer a modern CPU from X-ray lithography. If you | know the theory underpinning everything, you can start to | make educated guesses. Without that you're not going to get | anywhere close to what's going on let alone root cause if | something is broken. | anbende wrote: | A major problem with humorism was that it did not have any | empirical evidence to support it. | | Modern personality theory DOES. Personality theory uses a | variety of techniques to show that a construct is | internally consistent and related to real-world indicators. | If independent people can view a video or a person and they | reliably rate that entity similarly (inter-rater | reliability), we can say with some certainty that there is | something there. Relating a construct like this to a | variety of real-world outcomes allows us to ascertain its | relationship to the world. This evidence is messy and not | nearly as solid as what's found in the harder sciences, but | your dismissal of the modern statistics of questionnaire- | based measurement does a very well-researched field of | inquiry a huge disservice. | vlovich123 wrote: | My analogy to humorism was not to imply that there's no | empirical evidence at all here. Just that the field of | psychology has continually struggled to actually develop | testable hypotheses that lead to scientific theories. | | There's a giant chasm between "I have a signal" and | "here's what that signal means". You can't start out with | a data set, pick out some signals and then say what they | mean. That's scientific theory 101. You build a | hypothetical model and then design experiments to test | those theories. It's not me doing the field a disservice. | The practitioners have consistently and repeatedly done | bad science and statistics. I'll be more supportive once | the field actually starts producing falsifiable theories | that are supported by evidence and the practitioners are | better at calling out their peers. | acituan wrote: | You seem to be conflating psychology the science vs | psychotherapy the practice. The latter approximates | engineering and producing real life results takes | precedence over proving things from first principles. | Just like with medicine, you don't categorically reject | medications even though it can't always explain the | mechanisms of action fully (yet). Big tech doesn't hold | off on making billion dollar business decisions based on | the same techniques either. Science has its place but it | is not always above real life pragmatism. | tikhonj wrote: | > _Big tech doesn 't hold off on making billion dollar | business decisions based on the same techniques either._ | | I've seen how large companies make [?]$X0 million | decisions and probably $X00 million decisions and I | suspect $ billion decisions aren't treated fundamentally | differently. I wouldn't use that as evidence for how to | make decisions well. | | My current theory is that companies are successful not | because they consistently make specific tactical or even | strategic decisions well but because (through design or | evolution) they are resilient systems that can weather | surprisingly poor decision making at all levels. | vlovich123 wrote: | It's remarkable how similar this is to the argument that | an acupuncturist will make is. The modern pharmaceutical | industry in many instances has the same issues by the | way. Lots of drugs that have questionable efficacy at | best. | CompelTechnic wrote: | Turns out that the big 5 have predictive power. Hard to | call it "tea leaves" if it has broad correlates with human | behavior that are replicable across cultures and predict | forward-looking behavior. | mcguire wrote: | That's the argument usually presented for intelligence | testing. | jawns wrote: | But isn't that just tautology with an intermediate step? | | You might have Personality Descriptive Adjective X that is | found to cluster into what we call a Big Five trait. | | But Adjective X has its own definition, and it's likely that | the tautology (at least insofar as these life satisfaction | correlations are concerned) happens at that level. | anbende wrote: | Tautology implies that the definition we give is redundant, | but none of these things were defined in this way. This is | because none of the research relies on this kind of | dictionary definition. | | Instead, they literally ask people hundreds of questions of | the type: | | "To what extent would you consider yourself to be | [adjective]?" (0 - 'not at all' to 5 - 'complete') | | Then they factor analyze the results to see which | adjectives tend to be highly related to each other. Factor | analysis builds on correlation to find shared variation | among large groups of indicator variables. | | So it is related to how people think of the adjectives and | what they mean, but it is not the case that we are just | lumping definitions together or "saying the same thing in | different words" in the way of a tautology. Instead, what | we're saying is that "Most of these personality adjectives | mostly mean the same thing. Here's the thing they all | mostly mean. If humans in all languages have tons of words | that mostly mean this common thing, maybe this common thing | is significant and worthy of study." | | Regarding life satisfaction, the sense that one finds their | life satisfactory and "would change nothing" (one of the | items in the Satisfaction with Life Scale that was most | likely used to measure it) doesn't show up in those other | traits in any major way. In fact, to the extent that a | description of the self is related to a world-view, belief | or other external factor, it will never be a tautology, | because a self-view and other-view or world-view will never | share a common definition or tautology by virtue of the | self-other distinction. | dr_dshiv wrote: | I suppose they asked 1000s of different questions, each | representing a different personality characteristic. After | factor analysis, some arbitrary number of factors were | found to account for most of the variance. Why did they | settle for 5 vs 8 vs 12? | anbende wrote: | There are a number of metrics that are commonly used to | settle on a number of factors to extract. There's some | judgment in it to be sure, but you are looking at data- | driven phenomena as well like percentage of variance | explained, a precipitous drop in new added value, and | etc. | | Essentially you come to a point where extracting another | value isn't explaining much more variance or producing a | factor that's meaningful (e.g., two items of | conscientiousness with negative wording are the entire | new "factor" and only take variance explained from 80% to | 82%). | | https://www.theanalysisfactor.com/factor-analysis-how- | many-f... | planet-and-halo wrote: | Other models actually did settle for higher numbers of | factors, but higher numbers were usually found to have | categories that could be reasonably collapsed into one of | the Big 5. | | Fwiw, my understanding is that most psychologists believe | that with further study, these categories will map to | actual functioning of the brain and nerve systems. For | example, "Neuroticism" will somehow map to the | excitability of certain nerve systems and "Agreeableness" | will somehow map to functioning of our mirror and | mentalizing systems. "Conscientiousness" will map to | inhibiting functions, "Openness" will map to | approach/flee type emotional functions, and | "Extraversion" will map to systems like dopamine release | on securing rewards for behavior. | analog31 wrote: | Given that the definitions of words and phrases are possibly | subjective, I've often wondered if the personality test | largely measures how people interpret the questions. | mathrando wrote: | Articles like this answer the question, "what if 1920s | eugenicists got hold of 1980s magazine relationship tests?" | | The scary thing is a lot of commercial "people analytics" | systems marketed to HR departments, lenders, and government | agencies are little more than dressed up relationship tests | from 1980s magazines. | | https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~arvindn/talks/MIT-STS-AI-snake... | hansvm wrote: | If you know the tests are snake oil, is it ethical to give | the "right" answers to get a job? | bryanrasmussen wrote: | I would say yes, but do you want the job at the place that | is giving you snake oil? | vkou wrote: | I _want_ a job at a place where I can noodle around with | <my hipster technology of choice> all day, but I'll | settle for one that asks me to actually ship stuff, and | pays the bills. | | Whether or not their HR department is ran by a licensed | phrenologist is a distant second concern. | greesil wrote: | Maybe they pay really well | satellite2 wrote: | Or they control entire sectors of the economy. | | https://www.pgcareers.com/assessment-overviews | moksly wrote: | I think it's perfectly ethical to game the tests, but it | can be hard to tell what's actually being tested. | | One or ours was deliberately set up so that prospect hires | applying for a leadership position would end up with very, | very, little in their empathy score if they chose answers | that sound like the "right" ones for a leadership position. | It was done to catch people off guard in their next | interview, and see how they handled getting shown a result | they'd very likely not agree with. | | HR departments know these things are bullshit. They know | people game the systems, exactly like people practice for | the coding interview. The test and the results are often | extremely irrelevant to anyone getting hired, it's how | people handle their results that's important. | taberiand wrote: | Yes, of course it is. Working out how to work with people | is the core competency of most jobs. In this case, if | you've worked out how to give the 'correct' answers on such | a test, then you've got a good start on knowing how to | navigate the corporate machine - and get your real job done | despite corporate garbage (which in my opinion is what | makes it ethically ok). | Nition wrote: | Related to this, often I see a survey question along the | lines of say, "which cup do you think would hold more | water" with one that looks like it'd hold a lot more than | the other. I'm never sure whether to answer with the meta- | analysis of the fact that it's a survey question included | in my answer. | | That is, if I saw the two cups in my example naturally I'd | say the obvious one holds more water, but often there'd be | no point in putting it as a survey question if the obvious | answer was the case. Therefore I'm almost sure the correct | answer is the seemingly wrong one. | | So I put that as the answer and get it right. But for | whoever's running the survey, I'm probably messing up their | results by meta-analysing the questions. | tikhonj wrote: | I don't know if this question is an example, but people | intentionally include "obvious" questions in surveys to | check whether people are actually paying attention to the | survey. There's a name for these, I just don't recall it | at the moment--which shows you I don't have any survey- | design experience myself :). | jaredsohn wrote: | According to a Google search, "Attention check questions" | sounds like the right term | analog31 wrote: | Is it ethical to give the "right" answer to a regular | interview question? An interview might be a stressful | situation for some people, who often suffer from a bias of | downgrading themselves compared to others. So a calibrated | interpretation of the questions may be necessary to provide | a faithful result in the first place. | moksly wrote: | Unless a HR department is doing something wrong, the test | results aren't the point of the tests. It's the conversation | following, where possible employees are confronted with their | answers and results that's the point. | | It's just easier to get there when you use a disguised | relationship tests from 1980ies magazines. Not only does it | touch on relevant areas, most people that you'd use the HR | resources on secretly love taking those things and then | talking about themselves. | | As with most things, it can obviously go wrong or get used in | the wrong situations. HR is a department that's there to help | managers, but they really shouldn't waste their resources | testing people for a position as a software developer. If | your company is doing that, something went wrong. Maybe HR | found a way to keep themselves busy, or you're not bolstering | a management culture or people who can make hiring related | decisions without consulting HR. | ghaff wrote: | Or Myers-Briggs, which is a lot older. | | The main useful thing about this sort of thing, including the | more modern Tilt 365 for example, is that it can be a useful | exercise in helping people understand that the way they think | about and approach the world differs from how others do. | | Years ago, I remember a book (Tog on Interface) that had a | chapter which discussed how Apple engineers tested on MBTI | versus the general population. He went to discuss | implications for how it was easier for engineers to have | mental models for how systems operated than users. Was this a | correct explanation _based on MBTI_? Who knows. But it was a | useful reminder in this case that your users may not be like | you. | vmception wrote: | Myers Briggs is astrology for people that scoff at | astrology | | I will code switch between star signs and personality | acronyms to get in your pants and assign zero weight to | either | Icathian wrote: | "I will lie to manipulate you into fucking me, and also I | think I'm smarter than everyone". | | You charmer, you. | vmception wrote: | You decided to read that | | I dont lie about my astrology signs or myer briggs result | | I judge which one will likely help create an intimate | consensual scenario and judge when to avoid criticizing | either school of thought as disagreement is usually | counterproductive to a consensual reproductive scenario | | Pick your battles wisely | | Out of even more adaptive curiosity, how do you read that | as lying? | jokoon wrote: | I'm often skeptical about those things, because they try to | measure, but those measure are based on a definition of | vocabulary, which is difficult to define. | | Personality is vague. It's pretty common knowledge that the | brain is a complex machine and it's quite difficult to | distillate some sort of evaluation, metric or measure for | something that obviously has a million or billions ways to be | measured. | | It's already hard or difficult to treat psychiatric illness, so | evaluating personality seems like an odd quest. | HPsquared wrote: | My (lay) understanding is that personality data tend to be | clustered such that it's best explained by five factors, with | the names of the factors (Openness, Conscientiousness, etc.) | having been added later. | infogulch wrote: | Wikipedia states it pretty well, "When factor analysis (a | statistical technique) is applied to personality survey data, | it reveals semantic associations: some words used to describe | aspects of personality are often applied to the same person." | [1] | | The Big Five are a statistically-derived groupings of phrases | that are reasonably stable when measured from different | angles. I think it would be fair to call it a "modest initial | result" if compared to the physical sciences, or "wildly | successful" if compared to basically anything prior that came | out of the social sciences. There are some quite reasonable | critiques listed on the wikipedia page, such as a lack of | modeling theory, or only accounting for a portion of | personality differences, or arguments for a slightly | different number of factors, etc. That said, it seems to be | one of the first actually solid findings that ever came out | of the social sciences. It's like the whole field has been | flailing around, swept down a river in the dark, and for the | first time we found a stone that has a bit of purchase, even | if it's covered with moss and slippery. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits | toast0 wrote: | > If that measurement includes questions such as, "Do others | find you easy to get along with?" then of course there's going | to be a negative correlation with loneliness, because you've | essentially defined it that way. | | Lack of agreeableness may drive others away, but if disageeable | people also want less socialization, they might not be more | lonely than agreeable people. | | I personal think I'm pretty agreeable, but it would take a lot | for me to feel lonely, so even if I were very disagreeable, I | imagine I'd still have enough people around to suit me. | eCa wrote: | Quite a leap from "I'm agreeable but prefers to be alone" to | "disagreeable people prefers to be more alone than agreeable | people". | tikhonj wrote: | My understanding is that the point of the Big Five model is | that the design was the other way around--we _started_ by | looking at how answers to personality-related questions | naturally clustered, then we gave names to those clusters. We | define "agreeableness" because a particular set of | answers/preferences/etc were correlated and could be | _interpreted_ as "agreeableness". | | Of course, there are limitations to this kind of approach and | there's been a lot of research and refining done on top of this | --not being an expert, I'm not familiar with it--but the core | of the Big Five model is observational, not tautological. | paulpauper wrote: | not personality trait obviously, but in terms of success IQ | probably matters more than big 5. I think personality can be | improved or changed though effort but intelligence cannot. | Someone who is introverted can make an effort to be extroverted | in situations where it matters. | [deleted] | austincheney wrote: | Is there data on that? | | Perceptions of intelligence are variable to practice and | preparation if the measure is nonrandomized convergent | standardized tests, which is not IQ but is the more accepted | assessment of intelligence. IQ only seems to matter up to 135 | after which other factors become more dominant in determining | success. | paulpauper wrote: | https://www.vox.com/2016/5/25/11683192/iq-testing- | intelligen... | | I look at it like this, for creative, intellectually | demanding work IQ is a necessary but perhaps insufficient | condition. You need to be smart to achieve success cause you | are competing with other people, so smarter people will have | an edge. Google is not hiring people with 90-110 iqs. So | having a high IQ is needed to at least be sufficiently | proficient in coding, to be considered for a good paying job, | but not guarantee you will be hired, but being smart sure | helps. | the_dune_13 wrote: | > high IQ is needed to at least be sufficiently proficient | in coding, | | Should I even bother on what's the source of this claim? | rkk3 wrote: | Google hires no one within 1SD of the Avg IQ? This I find | hard to believe. | paulpauper wrote: | for technical postitions, i am sure IQs cluser around | 125-140 | rkk3 wrote: | Top 2-3% of IQ seems very high... Remember everyone with | IQ above 100 is above average and like you said in your | other post, it is for the most part a | threshold/satisfying criteria. | austincheney wrote: | I find it interesting that people are willing to invent | data on the spot to qualify a bias. | im3w1l wrote: | Here's a thought. When you reach IQ 135 you start becoming | "io-bound". But this is a function of the complexity of our | society. As our society and technology gets more complicated | the "skillcap" will shift upwards, and a higher IQ will be | needed for full performance. | epivosism wrote: | Check out SMPY - here's an image of their results showing | that academic output, patents, tenure, income continues to | increase well beyond IQ 135. Details in the later links. | | https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4b8ThyfDgzs/U29nQEBAQTI/AAAAAAAA | E... | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Study_of_Mathematically_Preco | c... | | https://my.vanderbilt.edu/smpy/ | | The obvious question is, if IQ (or whatever SAT is | measuring) is irrelevant, why is it so predictive of | lifetime academic output? | | Also, people try to attack the SAT as nothing more than | test prep - but I don't think that argument works well | because it supposes you can produce kids who score 700 on | the math SAT before age 13; such a training program has | never been observed. | sokoloff wrote: | Some amount of test prep is surely helpful in terms of | understanding the test format and strategies, but it does | seem (almost?) obvious that the SAT is actually measuring | _something_ other than test prep. | | NB: SMPY qualifications for at least the early cohorts of | the study are "before 13" (so, 12 or younger). | [deleted] | [deleted] | michaelcampbell wrote: | Many recent studies related to "grit", determination, practice | and effort vs "talent" seem to refute this entirely. | | They could just be out to sell books though, too; I don't have | a strong opinion either way. | dandanua wrote: | I would say it's the opposite - intellect can be trained by | practice and hard work, tough it's unlikely that you'll become | a genius. But changing your personal temperament looks | impossible to me. It's like changing software vs hardware, the | latter is obviously harder. | | Sure, a smart introvert can learn how to act like an extrovert. | But this will never be natural to him and will cause an | additional cognitive load. | jcims wrote: | I'm just amazed that we're still happy to condense one of the | most complex phenomena, if not *the* most complex phenomenon | that we were aware of into a single scalar performance value. | sokoloff wrote: | It seems a convenient shorthand. Intelligence is surely a | multi-dimensional vector, but it's convenient in a lot of | circumstances to talk about its magnitude. | | "All models are wrong; some models are useful." | orthoxerox wrote: | > Intelligence is surely a multi-dimensional vector | | There's a single component responsible for almost half of | the difference: | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_(psychometrics) | jcims wrote: | This is just another layer of aggregation, emphasis mine: | | >It is a variable that _summarizes_ positive correlations | among different cognitive tasks, reflecting the fact that | an individual 's performance on one type of cognitive | task _tends to_ be comparable to that person 's | performance on other kinds of cognitive tasks. | fighterpilot wrote: | IQ tests don't do that. They give you different scores for | verbal etc. | | It's useful to put it into one dimension though because all | those different scores are quite correlated. A well | functioning brain is usually generally just good at many | different things. | HPsquared wrote: | Money is another scalar value which matters a lot. | Reimersholme wrote: | I guess "emotional stability" is an inverted rebranding of | neuroticism as it's usually known? | anbende wrote: | Psychologist here. Yes, that is correct. Without the inversion, | it is sometimes also referred to as "emotionality" or even | "negative emotionality". "Neuroticism" sounds pejorative to | many. | doggodaddo78 wrote: | I need more emotional stability (inverse of neuroticism) and less | conscientiousness. | | Fine-tune your agreeableness to suit income or popularity, as | needed. | | I wonder what a rich, intelligent artist's traits look like. :) | ZoomZoomZoom wrote: | >I wonder what a rich, intelligent artist's traits look like. | :) | | Unfortunately, that's a "chose 2" situation. :) | Consultant32452 wrote: | Pretty much any sort of artist that has to consistently | produce long term could fit this. Examples that come to mind | are the writer for Garfield comics, the South Park guys, etc. | massysett wrote: | "Broadly speaking, they are more happy, successful, intelligent, | creative, and popular." | | This reads like an extrovert's life wish list - particularly | "popular," but even "happy" and "creative." I disagree that | someone who exhibits these characteristics is somehow "better" or | is living a better life. | periheli0n wrote: | Are these personality types really scientifically grounded? | | I once was sort of compelled to take a Myers-Briggs test and I | found it utterly flawed. So much of one's personality depends on | the contact and environment, yet Myers-Briggs wants to force you | into one type. | | Making things way too simple. But maybe simple is what was sought | here rather than really resolving personality. | clairity wrote: | it's claimed that myers-briggs is reliably repeatable, but my | personal experience contradicts this, with a flip-flopping of 3 | of the 4 attributes over time. it doesn't seem too reliable to | me. | periheli0n wrote: | Yes, my experience exactly. I could imagine myself in | different situations suiting different answers, and therefore | having different personalities. | | That might even make sense but then it's not a description of | personality, but of context-dependent behaviour. Only useful | within a defined context. | anbende wrote: | That's a good question, and your reaction to the Myers-Briggs | is justified! It is not evidence-based and is roundly rejected | by modern personality psychology. The work the author of this | piece was describing on the other-hand is one of the most well- | researched phenomena in the history of psychology. | | It is based on a massive amount of research looking at clusters | of personality adjectives found in dozens of languages that | tend to cluster along five dimensions. And the same five | clusters are found in virtually all languages (sometimes to | include a 6th cluster often called "honesty/humility"). | | And to your point about types, this system doesn't assign types | to people, but instead places them on a continuous dimension | that is considered to be much more useful. | | And to your point about complexity, the 5 dimensions are higher | level structures. Within each dimension is a branching tree of | complexity that is where the current work lies. | | Further reading: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_hypothesis | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits | periheli0n wrote: | Thank you for this deep answer, and for confirming my | impression of Myers-Briggs! | | I can see how a continuous scale can already fix a few | issues. However, isn't it still too simplistic to say | "personality feature X correlates with real-life success | measure Y?" | | Take for example "Openness". It's not hard to imagine how the | very same person can be very open with one group of people, | but act totally differently in another group. | | Is Openness then really a feature of personality? Or maybe | rather a description of the social behaviour of one person in | a specific context? | anbende wrote: | >Is Openness then really a feature of personality? Or maybe | rather a description of the social behaviour of one person | in a specific context? | | This is a great question! And it touches on what's call the | "person-situation" debate, first popularized by Walter | Michel[1]. Essentially there was a major debate about | whether traits were a thing or we should just be focused on | context-specific behavior. Mischel believed that traits | weren't useful, and situations ruled. | | In many ways this debate has been resolved by the "person | as a density distribution" [2]. People do vary a lot | within, and that variation is vitally important. However, | their average or "set point" upon which they vary is also | important and predictive. | | When we talk about the correlation between a trait and some | external marker, we are only looking at correlations with | averages or set-points, which as you mention is only a | limited picture of that person, but it is still useful and | valuable to look at. For example, I'm a fairly open person. | This means that on average I'm more open in more | situations. And this is predictive. It's also important to | note that this only loosely predicts what I'll do in any | particular situation or at any particular timepoint. | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person%E2%80%93situation_ | debat... | | [2] https://personality- | project.org/revelle/syllabi/classreading... | periheli0n wrote: | Excellent--that sounds almost like a Bayesian approach, | where personality corresponds to the prior, the context | in which the person behaves is the likelihood, and the | posterior is a distribution of behaviours. | | I guess a personal goal should then be to seek the | context in which one's strengths match best the demands. | | I would suggest an MCMC approach but I guess the | evaluation of individual outcomes is too costly to make | this practical ;) | wizzwizz4 wrote: | I think it's more "a personality is a function over the | continuous domain of situations". | periheli0n wrote: | Not a contradiction! Bayesian inference is fully | compatible with this definition. | wizzwizz4 wrote: | I don't see how you could get a prior over this without | some really dubious assumptions. Plus, it's not what GGP | described. | namenotrequired wrote: | > Take for example "Openness". It's not hard to imagine how | the very same person can be very open with one group of | people | | Lest this be misunderstood, note that "Openness" in this | context is not about being honest. It is short for | "Openness to Experience". Roughly, it's about creativity | and curiosity. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openness_to_experience | periheli0n wrote: | Good point. Still, a person that radiates creativity and | curiosity in an environment that they find inspiring | could be the exact opposite in another environment that | they find less suitable. Hence my point that this | personality trait stuff is at least as much dependent on | context as on personal traits. | planet-and-halo wrote: | That's widely accepted as part of personality theory. The | idea is that you have some "base setting," not that you | will literally try anything (or refuse to try anything). | It should also be noted that personality is one aspect of | your psychology. It doesn't absolutely determine how you | will behave under a given set of circumstances. Example: | you might be very open to experience, but as a child you | were bit by a dog. Next time you see a dog, your | experience-based fear could easily overwhelm your natural | curiosity. | mycologos wrote: | The author of the featured article has also written a defense | of the Myers-Briggs system that argues against several of | your points: https://dynomight.net/in-defense-of-myers- | briggs.html | | (I'm not particularly invested in either model, but it is | somewhat cute that the author of both pieces is the same.) | [deleted] | fsloth wrote: | Myers-Briggs is pseudoscientific bs. The only reason it's so | famous is that it's an easy snake oil to peddle by consultants. | | It was literally concocted by two persons without scientific | method or context. It's fiction. Some fiction mirrors life | quite well, but that does not turn it into a scientific tool. | | The only time Myers-Briggs has some utility is as a | facilitation tool when a consultant needs to convince a | roomfull of people that diverse teams are good, and that | cognitive diversity is an asset and what it might look like. | I.e. it's a usefull proxy for a scientific measure when we've | been brainwashed to trust only high-modernist fantasies and | have no space for actual humanist rumination. | periheli0n wrote: | lol this was _precisely_ the context in which I was exposed | to this test :D | danaris wrote: | The Big 5 Personality Inventory is pretty much the gold | standard in the field of psychology. The traits it measures are | reasonably (though not completely) stable over a person's | lifetime, have decent predictive power, and have been tested | and studied rigorously for decades now. They have nearly | nothing in common with Meyers-Briggs. | | In particular, each of the traits is measured on a separate | spectrum--none of them are treated as binary the way M-B does, | and they don't seek to pigeonhole you based on your levels of | the different traits into some oversimplified bucket. | minikites wrote: | Myers-Briggs is astrology for office workers. You can read | anything into it, helpful or unhelpful. | mettamage wrote: | See [1]. It's a lot, I don't fully understand it myself. I find | it convincing enough to say it's scientifically grounded, in | the linguistic sense at least. I wouldn't say this research is | grounded in the biological sense (not the five factor model | anyway, perhaps the concept of "personality" is though). | | [1] | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits#Hi... | periheli0n wrote: | Thanks for the link. So if I read this correctly, these | personality traits refer to how one is perceived by others. | OK, I guess that makes sense. | | But it would be total nonsense to conclude about personality | traits from a self-taken test. | justbored123 wrote: | That is a problem of interpretation by amateurs more than a | problem with the test itself. Myers-Briggs gives you | PERCENTAGES of every trait, then it uses 4 letter labels to | make things simpler for people, but you are supposed to | understand that a person that scored 49% introvert in the | introvert-extrovert spectrum is going to be far similar to a | person that scored extrovert with 51% than to a person that | scored introvert 10% because its a spectrum not an absolute | value. | | That is the reason that modern tests like Big Five did away | with the labels, because people were incapable to reason beyond | them and kept making dumb assumptions like "He scored introvert | so he must hate parties or I scored introvert the first time | but extrovert the second (a potential 1% difference between the | labels without the percentages associated to them) so the test | is crap". | david_allison wrote: | > you are supposed to understand that a person that scored | 49% introvert in the introvert-extrovert spectrum is going to | be far similar to a person that scored extrovert with 51% | than to a person that scored introvert 10% because its a | spectrum not an absolute value. | | This doesn't fit well with my mental model of how Myers | Briggs works (regardless of the veracity of Myers Briggs). | | As I understand it: Myers Briggs maps to the Jungian | cognitive functions[0] and the side that you fall on the J/P | dichotomy will invert these. | | An INTJ would be: Introverted Intuition, Extraverted | Thinking, Introverted Feeling, Extraverted Sensing | | An INTP would be: Introverted Thinking, Extraverted | Intuition, Introverted Sensing, Extraverted Feeling | | Getting near the 50% mark on the J/P aspect appears to show | low confidence in any part of the model | | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions | pseudalopex wrote: | Myers and Briggs were inspired by Jung. And some | enthusiasts insist on interpreting it how you do. But | basically every test treats the axes as continuous. | [deleted] | [deleted] | guerrilla wrote: | It's impossible to take this seriously when it's using profiles | of random famous people as if that means anything. If that wasn't | done by actually interviewing them, then however it was done, the | methodology diverges and is already invalid but even worse, it | was just third-person subjective nonsense. | | Edit: Why would Reimersholme's comment be buried? Neuroticism is | what it's usually called in Big Five. [1][2] | | 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroticism | | 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits | kijin wrote: | They probably inverted the neuroticism scale in order to make | it consistent with the other four traits, most of which have | positive connotations unlike neuroticism. One might argue about | the labels, but there's nothing wrong with inverting a scale | for convenience of presentation. | | The personality traits of famous historical people are well | established and widely available online. I have no idea how | accurate they are, but they do fulfill their role as easily | recognizable stereotypes. In any case the author probably used | a publicly available dataset and didn't just make it up. | stephc_int13 wrote: | I have a really hard time taking this kind of "analysis" | seriously. | | It does not seems rigorous or scientific at all, and I don't | understand how it can be visible here on HN, to be honest... | emdubbelyou wrote: | If you're going to post a comment of skepticism, please try to | support your argument with actual criticism. Currently, all I | have is your opinion on the article, which is in contrast to | the # of people who upvoted the post. | | I can easily say that I DO think the article is rigorous and | scientific but then we'd disagree without any insight into what | we disagree on. | stephc_int13 wrote: | I did that on purpose, simply to voice my opinion. | | Let's say I vote to see less article like this one on HN. | | This is merely annoying, not enough to warrant a full debunk. | johnwheeler wrote: | i suspect this is horseshit off the top of this guy's head. | hawthornio wrote: | The premise of this article is ridiculous. Your personality | doesn't cause you to be autistic. The personality traits are | almost certainly caused by the "outcomes" the author is | assessing, or both are caused by some other hidden variables. | Personality tests are just reading the tea leaves of self- | reported questionnaires. | michaelcampbell wrote: | I thought the article was quite clear it was about | correllations, not causation. | planet-and-halo wrote: | The book "Personality" by Nettle gives the best layman's summary | of the Big 5 model I've found. What I particularly like about it, | beyond the summary of each aspect, is the way he frames it in | terms of evolution and why being on one end of the scale for a | trait is not "better." Agreeableness is probably the easiest one | to understand from an evolutionary perspective. If you worry a | lot about other people's needs, you're more likely to make them | happy and reap the benefits of reciprocity, but you're also less | likely to directly pursue your own needs. So it goes with the | other traits too: being on different parts of the spectrum come | with advantages and disadvantages from a reproductive standpoint. | Conscientiousness and Neuroticism are the two traits most | correlated with financial success in the modern world, but they | had downsides in an ancestral environment and even in our modern | world can have negative effects e.g. on personal happiness and | wellbeing. | [deleted] | justnotworthit wrote: | Author claims ENFJ is opposite of ISTP in MB. I thought it was | the groupings (first two, second two, and/or/? combination) that | formed opposites, not the individual letters. | Wronnay wrote: | I can't read a text based on the Big Five seriously. My | personality changed in many ways over the years. It's kinda like | your political position changes over the years. | | Someone fresh from college might be introverted and on the left | political spectrum because he has no money, but to be successful | he might get extroverted and when he has much money, he might get | more on the right political spectrum. | | How can something which basically assumes that people don't | change get so popular?! People change all the time, personality | changes all the time. | anbende wrote: | Hi there, psychologist here who has done research in | personality including looking at the Big Five. It's not my | personal favorite set of constructs, but I have great respect | for the body of work supporting it. | | Modern personality theory in no way assumes that personality | doesn't change over time. It finds instead that personality | tends to be "somewhat stable over time" which means that | personality doesn't vary massively from week to week or month | to month but can definitely shift across the lifespan. In fact, | here's a large study looking at exactly that (though cross- | sectional which means that many effects could be a function of | age cohorts rather than actual change). | | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2562318/ | | Regarding your hypothetical introverted recent college grad, | these kinds of shifts can and do happen, but massive shifts in | personality appear to be quite rare. What's more, modern work | in the area has found that "within-person" variability is much | greater than "between-persons" variability meaning that as | individuals we express a wide range of behaviors. For example, | I might be more extraverted at work and more introverted among | friends or vice versa, showing internal variation. That said, | we can talk about a person's average level of a trait like | extraversion and that average is meaningful and predictive. | | As to your point, both kinds of change can and do happen, but | changing our behavioral approach to life tends to be gradual | and slow for most people. | mettamage wrote: | What do you think about psilocybin's effect on openness? Are | there other studies that produce such marked changes in | personality? | anbende wrote: | That's a very interesting question, but unfortunately it's | not really my area. | | If you'll permit me to speculate a bit: | | I do clinical work as well, and I'd say that therapy | produces some personality change if done long enough, but | it's not a massive shift in most cases, though even small | changes can make a big difference over time. | | Unfortunately, trauma and hardship can also have a big | impact on people's personality and average behavior. Going | to war or prison or suffering great loss can have a big | impact. | raspasov wrote: | I enjoyed reading your responses in this thread very much! | | Do you have a "favorite set of constructs"? | pishpash wrote: | Side note, maybe as technology removes barriers to access to | resources that used to be gated by social graces, extroversion | and agreeableness are changing in importance. In other words, in | a world where machines outcompete humans, what used to be | successful traits among humans aren't going to be always the | fittest in the new environment. | colechristensen wrote: | The question behind all of these theories of personality is "Does | the measured quantity have any underlying form?" That is, are you | measuring something "real" or just coming up with arbitrary | classifications. | | "How you answer this survey correlates this well to outcomes" is | perhaps useful, but binning answers into personality types with | common names is questionable. | | It all seems to be a little bit too far down the road of | searching for things to name and classify. | pishpash wrote: | To the extent that PCA of survey results exhibit | dimensionality, that is real. The underlying basis might be | modes of social dynamics or clusters in genetics or language. | It would be surprising to find that totally unconstrained | random processes generated patterns like this. | m0llusk wrote: | What may be more interesting are the correlations between | personality types and occupations. For example, teachers tend to | have a high level of empathy. That seems like it could be more | interesting and rewarding to investigate. Similarly, pilots, | cops, and soldiers all tend to have high levels of aggression. | Arguably most interesting is the beer industry where brewers tend | to be extremely open to a fault while distributors tend not to | have much openness and score high on other factors. | | Taken together this tends to indicate that the overall life | outcome correlations are as usual as likely to mislead as inform. | What makes more sense is to see how individuals match with roles | and tasks and how diverse individuals can cooperate to make the | most of each of their best talents. | analog31 wrote: | Granted this isn't a peer reviewed paper, but still, a blog that | gives personality scores for historical people like presidents | can't be based on data. | | If IQ is important, maybe it's just that intelligent people know | how to take personality tests. | wombatmobile wrote: | > If IQ is important, maybe it's just that intelligent people | know how to take personality tests. | | What even is intelligence? | | I know that IQ is what IQ tests measure, but what is | intelligence? | | People say my dog is intelligent, but only in response to her | displays of obedience to my commands, I've noticed. I silently | translate their comment about intelligence to mean "your dog is | obedient." | | Does an IQ test measure what makes good employees? | | Does an IQ test measure what makes good employers? | | Does an IQ test measure what makes good entertainers? | | Does an IQ test measure what makes good leaders? | | Does an IQ test measure what makes good entrepreneurs? | | Does an IQ test measure what makes good spouses? | | Does an IQ test measure what makes good neighbours? | | Does an IQ test measure what makes good friends? | | If an IQ test could measure some factor that leads to | happiness, I might consider that factor to be "intelligence". | But the things that make people happy vary on an individual | basis, as well as over time and circumstances, so how could | that be encapsulated in one static test for everybody? | ZephyrBlu wrote: | I think general intelligence is about your ability to absorb | and synthesize information. | | Higher intelligence = fast learner + better at joining | seemingly unrelated dots. | erikerikson wrote: | > "What even is intelligence?" | | I've found the following a fairly good definition: | | Efficient cross-domain optimization | | In less coded language: the ability to gain more benefit | across many areas of value from the same or fewer resources. | wombatmobile wrote: | > the ability to gain more benefit across many areas of | value from the same or fewer resources. | | Your use of the term "more benefit" is clever because it | avoids definition, and cannot be disproven. | | If you'd said "more money" or "more power" or "more | calories" or "more resources" the notion of benefit could | be directly assessed, although different people would | assess each proposition differently, some positively, and | others negatively, because the value of "more" of anything | is circumstantial and a matter of taste. | | Sometimes less is more. | erikerikson wrote: | Indeed, sometimes less is more. More benefit stands in | for the more technical term "utilitons" or units of value | or utility. Less is more is adding description to what | contingently has a higher expected or observed utiliton | value. Between explaining all that or using "more | benefit", I opted for less ;D | paulpauper wrote: | I am sure someone with an IQ of 130 probably has better luck | understanding coding than someone with an IQ of 100. To say | that IQ is ill-defined and of no predictive power, is wrong. | TameAntelope wrote: | That's just it, does IQ denote ability to rationally think? | Can you be highly irrational and also have a high IQ, | because if so then I'd argue that the 130 IQ person would | struggle more than the 100 IQ person if the latter were | better able to think rationally. | | We might assume that IQ translates directly to ability to | reason through a problem, but that may not be the case. An | 8 lane highway is useless if you're riding a skateboard. | clairity wrote: | > "What even is intelligence?" | | to me, intelligence is simply the ability to discern (useful) | connections between phenomena, basically being able to | accurately inter-/extra-polate from observation through time | and space, or alternatively, the ability to predict the | future (for relatively finite values of future). it's kinda | like the derivative of knowledge, and wit is the derivative | of intelligence. | | an IQ test measures a very narrow slice of that. it doesn't | encompass humor, art, or sports/dance (dynamic/kinetic | ability) for instance. | | with dogs (or other pets), the intelligent part is their | ability to parse your alien communications into desired | responses, similar to learning a foreign language without an | instructor, an interpreter, or a reference available. | doggodaddo78 wrote: | IQ is good if it doesn't exceed other people's by more than | about 2 std devs, then people resent you. | | (IQ is a fuzzy, poorly-measured "quality" that doesn't have a | whole lot of meaning other than some interpretation of taking a | particular test.) | anotha1 wrote: | > maybe it's just that intelligent people know how to take | personality tests | | Also why ADHD meds, prescribed legally, are rampant on college | campuses. | DiggyJohnson wrote: | While it seems that we're not in a position to discuss this | issue, I am extremely interested (and worried) about the rise | of prescription stimulants _specifically_ as it relates to | meritocracy and credentialing. | agumonkey wrote: | I have yet to find any IQ test with any value whatsoever. Maybe | the one I had in school, and the one on the web are bogus, but | if it's not the case, finding small patterns and recognizing | space transformed shapes are really the ground level of | thinking. No multilinear or non linear relationship, no fractal | / self similarity. That's not even HS abstraction levels.. I | really don't get it. | nbardy wrote: | I'd lay the blame on the increasingly narrow and industrialized | education system. | austincheney wrote: | Conscientiousness is by far the least popular but has the highest | income. That is not at all surprising. Objectivity, right and | wrong as reflected by a balance of measures, is a rare and | unpopular innate personality trait that allows for making micro- | decisions many people might find abhorrent, more typically based | upon evidence. | Barrin92 wrote: | Conscientiousness isn't a measure of objectivity, it's a | measure of reliability, the capacity to work diligently and | adhere to rules. It correlates with income well because we're | living in a very institutionalized society that rewards people | who adhere to rules and follow expectations. | | In the US it's basically what upper middle-class WASP culture | is and it sustains a large share of income because it's very | good at reproducing itself and managing organisations, it's all | the lawyers, and bureaucrats, politicians and administrators | and so on, it's all the people who're really good at making | schedules. | kijin wrote: | According to the same chart, conscientious people also seem to | perform significantly better in college than everyone else. In | the modern world, better GPAs are usually correlated with | higher income. | | Interestingly, those people don't seem to do particularly well | in the SAT. Perhaps their abilities are "unlocked" to the | fullest only after they get into college and get a chance to | make independent decisions. | jollybean wrote: | Getting good grades is a grind. | | Being 'sufficiently smart' - plus - being organized, | diligent, applying yourself consistently, will probably get | you better grades than being a disorganized genius. | | If everyone had the same IQ, then University grades would be | actually a really, really good measure of raw | conscientiousness. | paulpauper wrote: | but some courses are easier than others though | fallingknife wrote: | Grades are shockingly dependent on completing busywork on | time, so I am not at all surprised that conscientiousness | beats intelligence there. | the-dude wrote: | > Perhaps their abilities are "unlocked" to the fullest | | My impression is conscientious people work within the system | and don't toe the line. | | edit: disclosure, I am highly unconscientious, didn't finish | uni etc. | sokoloff wrote: | "Toe the line" is pretty much a synonym to work within the | system. | the-dude wrote: | Ah, right! Not a native speaker, got that wrong-way-round | and double-up. | | Thanks. | sokoloff wrote: | No problem. I am a native speaker and it seems a weird | expression to me as well (so much that I had to look it | up to be sure). I'd expect it to mean what your original | usage was. | | Don't get me started on "flammable vs inflammable" vs | "accurate vs inaccurate" ;) | the-dude wrote: | Just for the record : I would put my toe over the line. A | bit. | DangitBobby wrote: | My understanding of the phrase "toe the line" was to | express that someone is technically within limits but is | intentionally testing the boundaries of their limits, but | apparently this is not accurate. TIL. | Judgmentality wrote: | > Interestingly, those people don't seem to do particularly | well in the SAT. Perhaps their abilities are "unlocked" to | the fullest only after they get into college and get a chance | to make independent decisions. | | Or maybe the SAT is just a shitty test. | maxqin1 wrote: | For whom? | | The real problem is that not all valuable paths can come to | the same bottleneck. | | Med student? Well, the SAT might be a good indicator of how | successful you'll be at completing a medical program in the | US. Same thing for law. | | Are you the creative type? Then the SAT probably won't be | as indicative of your future success. | austincheney wrote: | I have around a 148 IQ but scored only 1060 on the SAT. | Clearly those two measures are not linked. This has not | prevented me from earning a 4 year degree or becoming a | software developer. I find writing software to be easy | while many of my peers seem to struggle. In reflection | personality and practice are all that have mattered. IQ | isn't a significant consideration of comfort/confidence | in writing software, a skill. | kortex wrote: | Indeed. SAT is basically "how good are you at cramming a | bunch of relatively arbitrary information into your brain | and regurgitating it in a high pressure, timed scenario". | That is _a_ kind of intelligence, but there are very few | occupations where that kind of intelligence is useful. | Lawyers and doctors. | | Both the "intensely study something rather uninteresting" | and "perform under high stress and time demand" are | specific kinds of intelligence, and I happen to know many | intelligent folks who are expressly bad at it. They don't | "test well". Anecdotally, diligent study and fast-testing | are anti-correlated in many of these smart folks. | fighterpilot wrote: | But they are linked. Studies have shown a very high | correlation. One outlier doesn't change the high | correlation. | austincheney wrote: | If those studies don't separate preparation from raw | performance they only suggest a self-reinforcing bias | different from capability. Any correlation then is purely | anecdotal. | fighterpilot wrote: | The high correlation suggests that both preparation/study | and raw intelligence are important in getting a high SAT | score. If you sacrifice one of those two things, you'll | get a low SAT score. If you have both, you'll get a high | score. | mycologos wrote: | > cramming a bunch of relatively arbitrary information | into your brain | | What? Most of the SAT is evaluating high school-level | math, writing, and reading skills. It's not like they're | asking you to memorize historical dates or names or poems | or formulas. Maybe the relatively narrow part of the test | on vocabulary falls into this category, but even those | words are almost entirely things you'll just pick up if | you like reading books. And, now that I'm looking into | it, only 10 out of 52 questions in the reading section | are even about vocabulary [1]. You can skip 9 of them and | still get a 700 on reading/writing [2]. Assuming you get | an 800 on math, that's a 98th percentile total score and | a 90th percentile on reading/writing alone [3], with | almost no vocabulary prep. | | I agree about the high pressure aspect, there doesn't | seem to be a good way around that. | | [1] https://www.kaptest.com/study/sat/whats-tested-on- | the-sat-vo... | | [2] https://blog.prepscholar.com/how-many-questions-can- | you-skip... | | [3] https://blog.prepscholar.com/sat-percentiles-and- | score-ranki... | ex_amazon_sde wrote: | SAT is more "how good AND MOTIVATED are you at cramming a | bunch of relatively arbitrary information into your | brain" | LudwigNagasena wrote: | SAT and IQ are strongly correlated, you are an outlier. | [deleted] | lr4444lr wrote: | IQ strongly correlates with SAT score, IIRC. If you have | a 148 IQ, I bet a capable tutor could train you to score | a good deal higher than 1060. | austincheney wrote: | A good tutor and sufficient preparation time should be | enough to transform anybody into an SAT expert. If that | is the case and this indicates a person with low IQ can | score high on the test then potentially everybody is | potentially an outlier, which then isn't an outlier at | all. | maxqin1 wrote: | > I have around a 148 | | That's rather impressive, but I would double-check those | numbers. | | For example, which IQ test? Was it recently updated? IQ | tests are adjusted by as many as 10 points every 10 years | [1]. Have you double verified with another test? How did | you prepare for each? | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect | austincheney wrote: | I am not that concerned. The number is as important to me | as my exceedingly unimpressive SAT score. | saiya-jin wrote: | well then it shouldn't be used as main point of your | argument | austincheney wrote: | I think you are confusing a relevant but worthless data | point for something of value. I guess there are people | that attach emotional significance to such things, but | it's just some number that made a valid argument. | | If I don't care and it's my number why do you or anybody | else care? Why should I not use this number to make a | valid argument? | [deleted] | akomtu wrote: | I think a good IQ test would be finding isomorphic | graphs. A typical question would be: here's a graph with | 7 nodes, tell which of the 4 graphs below it matches. | paulpauper wrote: | they are positively correlated. your outlier does not | invalidate the relation between the variables. | HPsquared wrote: | Perhaps the SAT is more like an IQ test (where a "quick wit" | is advantageous), and college grades are based more on | sustained performance, planning, meeting deadlines etc. These | are very different things. | jollybean wrote: | I would say that's almost more disagreeable than conscientious. | | Conscientious can almost be better described as 'consistent', | 'doing what you say you're gong to do', 'being responsible'. | | I think you might be hinting at the right thing ... | | .. but 'weighing evidence in a very highly deliberative, | judicial fashion' - might not be the best example of that. | | _Extolling_ the Judgment, might even land on the disagreeable | side. For example, the Judge who finds a supposed murderer | 'not guilty' even with the mobs of people chanting 'guilty' | outside the courthouse. | | I don't think 'disagreeableness' is necessarily even the right | word, it's more like 'will have their own opinion even if it | makes them unpopular'. | | I almost think that those Big 5 could be reoriented in a way | that divides people as those inclined towards populist outcomes | vs. those inclined towards judicial, principled, truthful ones. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-05-09 23:00 UTC)