[HN Gopher] Squeezebox Keyboard ___________________________________________________________________ Squeezebox Keyboard Author : mooreds Score : 171 points Date : 2021-05-19 11:53 UTC (11 hours ago) (HTM) web link (peterlyons.com) (TXT) w3m dump (peterlyons.com) | simonbarker87 wrote: | I've been using the ZSA Moonlander since mid Feb and love the | split aspect, what I don't love is how high off the desk it sits, | having the wrist rests above the keys like this seems like a | great idea. I've often felt like I want an infinitely thin desk | so I can type basically on my lap without totally destroying any | vertical space above my knees. | | For anyone interested in the Moonlander, I do recommend it but be | prepared for your typing speed to tank for a good few weeks. | Their customer support is also amazing, I had a minor issue with | my board and then sent me a new left half no questions asked. | cuddlybacon wrote: | > what I don't love is how high off the desk it sits | | And one of the features of the Moonlander over the Ergodox EZ | is it's thinner. Mechanical keyboards seem to be bulky by | default. | nullwarp wrote: | Definitely recommend the moonlander, got mine last week and my | productivity definitely tanked but it's getting back up there. | | FWIW my RSI in my wrist has improved already a great deal since | switching and it's only been a week. | gww wrote: | I bought one for wrist and elbow RSI. I really am enjoying it | so far as well. The biggest challenge I am having is finding | a layout I like and sticking with it. | therein wrote: | I also have a Moonlander. The hardware is absolutely | spectacular, it looks incredible. However never really got used | to it as I have it on my non-primary rig. | hanklazard wrote: | Yeah this is my problem with a non-staggered layout. I have | to use a standard laptop for work (and carry it frequently to | different rooms), so getting the muscle memory to shift back | and forth is just too much. | | I wish they made a version of the moonlander with a more | standard layout, I'd buy a few. | stevehawk wrote: | the one thing that keeps me from using my moonlander is that | raising it up / tilting it so i can reduce RSI has resulted in | a keyboard that just runs across the desk with every key | stroke. I'm still trying to figure out how to resolve this. I | think the problem is that my palm rest is so slick it forces me | to apply pressure to the keyboard in order to keep my hands | from sliding off of it. I may try a little adhesive sand paper | on the palm rest as a first effort. | wellthisisgreat wrote: | You can try keyboard trays (attached to the desk with clamps), | about $50 online and hold up well for a couple years, almost | completely eliminates this problem | dejj wrote: | What once was the King's Assembly: | https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70308014/kings-assembly... | focusaurus wrote: | LOL I funded that one and they never shipped anything. | cosmotic wrote: | Keys activated by pushing fingers out seems like a trap; there's | very little strength in that direction. | donio wrote: | The idea with these keyboards is that very small movements and | amounts of force is needed. The angle of that up key does look | a little awkward though. On the Datahand those keys are more or | less parallel with the finger itself so they only require a | tiny flick. | | When I first started typing on the Datahand the most difficult | part was getting used to the small movements, I kept hitting | the keys by accident. But once you get used to it it's not a | problem at all. | focusaurus wrote: | v2105 is nearly done and the top row angle is larger and it's | definitely more comfortable. The version in the post kind of | ended up that way due to testing from positions other than | really at my desk with everything really set up. | kgwxd wrote: | It's making my wrist hurt just thinking about it. | kempbellt wrote: | Strength training for your fingers. | | Might make you good at rock climbing if you're an avid typist. | [deleted] | jfengel wrote: | Rock climbing finger strength is almost entirely about | pulling. Not pulling yourself up, but resisting falling, so | that your legs can lift you up. That can involve a lot of | squeezing force, especially with the fingertips. | | It's not impossible to find a move where you push out. | Perhaps you might do it when wedging your hand into a crack. | But even then it's pretty rare; you usually count on your arm | to wedge your closed fist. | | As the GP said, pushing with your fingertips just isn't very | strong. So rock climbers rarely do it. | melling wrote: | Looks tight so maybe it actually requires little movement. | | Also, the key switches might require little force; there are no | key caps | [deleted] | skybrian wrote: | Darn, I was hoping it would be an actual squeezebox (accordion). | | I've been fooling around with making a MIDI input device sort of | like an acccordion [1], but I'm still figuring out what I might | do for expression instead of a bellows. | | [1] https://github.com/skybrian/accordionsynth | loloquwowndueo wrote: | If you're really looking to minimize hand movement and type fast | while doing it, perhaps a better option would be steno keyboards | (http://www.openstenoproject.org/) where entire words are | produced by specific chords. It's definitely learning a new way | of typing, but the keyboard showcased in the article here also | looks alien enough (apparently each finger has a set of letters | assigned to it and one types by moving each finger in a | particular direction to produce a single letter) that the | learning curve is probably substantial as well. | xupybd wrote: | I'm not sure how well it would work for code. You'd have to set | it up for each language right? | amelius wrote: | Variable names will still be in English, I suppose. | loloquwowndueo wrote: | Google for "Steno for coding". It does work :) | leoc wrote: | The Dutch Velotype https://www.velotype.com/en/homepage-eng/ / | Veyboard http://www.veyboard.nl/en_main.html design seems to be | a slightly more general-purpose version of the same chording | idea. Classical steno is based on quickly producing a cryptic | stream of personal abbreviations then manually patching it up | into a proper text later; though ofc computers can now assist | with the second part, and it seems that now some people _are_ | using steno boards (or steno layouts /software on normal KBs) | as general PC input devices. | | There's also the question of how useful steno-like high WPM is. | For transcription (using a keyboard) it's obviously somewhere | between very useful and essential, depending on the task; but | it also requires a lot of skill, so most people will probably | never achieve it even given everything else they'd need. (And | there's the alternative of using stenomask | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenomask -style dictation and/or | computerised text-to-speech.) For other things like computer | programming or natural-language composition extra speed may not | be worth a lot of extra bother. However there are some other | things chording could be useful for instead (or as well). It's | a fairly obvious way to easily access extra characters if you | have an NKRO board: I'm a bit surpried I haven't heard of | anyone using chords for mathematical symbols etc. yet. And it's | a way to achieve one-handed typing. One-handed chorded typing | isn't as fast as two-handed conventional typing, but it offers | the opportunity to type with one hand while controlling a mouse | with the other, eliminating the delay in switching between | mousing and typing. (Though a thumbable touchpad now also | offers low switching time. The Matias Half Keyboard/508keyboard | https://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/ approach offers one-handed | typing with a minimal amount of chording.) | tpmx wrote: | In like '00 I got painful carpal tunnel syndrome symptoms after | working intensely as a full-time developer for 3-4 years. | | The solution was: Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro (Photo: | http://xahlee.info/kbd/Microsoft_natural_keyboard.html) plus a | fantastic heavy-duty "telescopic" keyboard/mouse tray that Ikea | designed and sold for a few years.. You screwed it into the | bottom of the desktop. The key was allowing the keyboard to be | angled slightly away from the body, while also allowing it to be | as close to the legs/knees as possible - thereby minimizing the | wrist angle. | | Is anyone aware of any modern replacements for the above? | DIY/mechanical? (Mostly the keyboard itself - would love a | mechanical keyboard witht the same 3d layout.) | hellweaver666 wrote: | Theres a whole world of split mechanical keyboards out there, | like the Dactyl, Manuform, Kyria etc. I think splitkb.com has a | discord where the very specific subset of mechanical keyboards | that love ergo boards hang out. | tpmx wrote: | I've seen a very large number of split DIY keyboards, but not | really any with a dome-like (shaped like the hand) 3d layout | like the MS Natural Keyboard from the 90s/00s - before they | too went quite flat. | | (Thanks for the discord hint.) | wellthisisgreat wrote: | I was getting dangerously close to a carpal tunnel territory | and what steered me off the collision course were split | keyboard (Sinc/ quefrency) and a sliding keyboard tray, | altogether they allowed me to keep my wrists at a 45-ish degree | angle, tilted inwards (like they should be) and my elbows and | shoulders relaxed and never at a sharp angle. Never had even a | numbness ever since | brundolf wrote: | The reason I'll never use an ergonomic/split keyboard is that I | never formally learned to type. I can type at a reasonable speed, | but I have no "home row" or anything; much less do I keep one | hand confined to each side of the keyboard. | | I learned by hunting-and-pecking until I could do it with | multiple fingers and mostly without looking. This means I can | type at 50% speed with one hand, but it also means I would feel | extremely uncomfortable if one hand couldn't easily reach across | the median, because there's no one particular way that I reach | for any given key | | I'm curious how common this is? | pickledish wrote: | I was like this too, actually! Decided to learn to touch type | (home row, pinky fingers and all that) last month, and I'm | almost back up to my normal speed now. I'd say it's worth it, | significantly more comfortable with the potential to be much | faster than I was, but it does kinda highlight how the usual | QWERTY layout is, uh, really poorly optimized for touch typing | leadbase0 wrote: | I wonder if this benefits people with Arthritis with the little | movements. | AstaManasta wrote: | I feel like this would be worse tbh. Not enough finger movement | and pushing the fingers outwards doesn't seem like a great idea | long term. | | I just don't get the fascination for these minimal type | keyboards, have tried a few and they frustrate the heck out of | me. | sunir wrote: | They are novel. We have had the same basic design for a | century. People like seeing new concepts. | huhtenberg wrote: | There is a zero change I will ever want something like this, | leave alone need it, but if there's an HN submission worthy of an | instant upvote, that's the one :) | mooreds wrote: | haha, that's what I thought when I saw it pop up in my twitter | feed :) | smeej wrote: | I can't wrap my head around how anyone functions in a | professional, uses-a-computer-all-day capacity if they can only | type 60wpm. Dropping down to 20wpm, even temporarily? How do you | get anything done that way? | __mharrison__ wrote: | I know some very prominent programmers that hunt and peck... | jascii wrote: | Solve the same problem with less code? | sjm wrote: | Probably the same way you are generally productive but | currently spending time on HN? Very unlikely anyone's | productivity is "capped" by their typing speed. 99% of my | productive time is thinking about solutions, not the physical | act of typing them out. | slongfield wrote: | I type at a pretty decent pace (~80 wpm), but I spend a lot | more time thinking about what I'm going to type and reviewing | what I just typed than pressing buttons on the keyboard. | | I'd imagine this is the case for most people not doing | stenography or data entry. | focusaurus wrote: | I can transcribe audio from meetings in almost real time. It | doesn't actually require blazing fast WPM to do that. I get | plenty done. And no, the first working squeezebox prototype is | not my daily driver. Second version I hope but it's more about | the process and I wouldn't be surprised if it is just the next | entry in a fairly long line of keebs to challenge my original | ergodox full-hand and walk away leaving the ergodox as king of | the hill. | donio wrote: | Looks a bit like the Datahand, been using those for the past 20 | years. | | One difference is that the Datahand also has keys on the left and | right of each finger for a total of 5 keys on each. | 1-more wrote: | That's what I was looking for! Also the actuation pressure is | probably way less on the DH since it uses infrared switches. | donio wrote: | Yeah, the feel of those switches is a big deal and it's | probably the hardest part to reproduce. | | One funny consequence of using IR switches is that direct | sunlight can trigger them. I've had a few occasions when I | was greeted by a screenful of repeated characters when I | returned to my desk. | jeofken wrote: | I recently broke my left hand bones, and am absolutely useless | using Emacs and other tools, or even typing. | | How do HN solve the problem of programming with one hand? | zzzzzzzza wrote: | https://www.tapwithus.com/ tapstrap2 | 1-more wrote: | I added foot pedals to the keyboard I built so I could do | hold/tap modifiers with my feet. They were command and shift on | hold, enter and tab on tap. I imagine you'd want one to be | control for emacs. The problem is if you can't type right now | I'm not sure you can solder. Sorry friend. | wellthisisgreat wrote: | I was actually wondering how often people do this. Did you do | this because of some kind of injury or in pursuit of | ergonomics / out of curiosity? | | If the latter, how would you say this affected your workflow? | In terms of typing speed, overall enjoyment, fatigue, or any | other metric of productivity or comfort? | wellthisisgreat wrote: | Not quite the complete solution maybe, but I have been using | split keyboard (Sinc, Quefrency) for a long time and have been | lately drifting towards making each half somewhat independent | by using layers/ modifier keys. I am more focused on left hand, | but I thought maybe it could be adapted for the right. | | You don't need a special Keybaord to try it out, can just used | Karabiner Elements (OSX) or Autohotkey (Windows). Lmk if you'd | want some template scripts for either, happy to share them with | you. | | I have Caps mapped to Layer-1 which allow me to do CAPS | (pinky)+ WSAD (arrows), g(backspace), we (PGup, PGdn), z | (enter). | | Now I don't want to reach for number keys from [7] to = and I | just map them to CAPS + 123456. | | Recently i realized that I often have reach for the letter keys | on the second half (y, n for example for notification windows), | so I remapped some letters to those. | | I am thinking of actually drawing up a layout which will allow | me to use the sides interchangeably but still need to figure | out which Modifier key to use, that could be as convenient to | press with the pinky as Capslock. | | For the right side I assume it could be same or, possibly even | somewhat easier since, depending on the keyboard you'd have | more keys reachable with a pinky to experiment with. | | Alternatively, if you dislike this pinky-centric approach or | feel like you'd want to use all the fingers for typing, you | could possibly do the same but with a foot pedal as a modifier | / layer switcher. I suppose if I was to find myself in a | situation where I have to type with just one hand, I'd look | into the pedals that can send HID commands (to keep things | simple for OS) or even get a couple of those jumbo mechanical | keyboard switches and use them as foot-actuated modifiers / | layer switchers. | Nekhrimah wrote: | Dvorak also designed left and right handed keyboards [0]. | | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_keyboard_layout#One- | han... | donio wrote: | If it's an option at all I would take a break from it while | recovering. | teddyh wrote: | The Twiddler, maybe? https://twiddler.tekgear.com/ | ents wrote: | Azeron keypad, but for typing instead of gaming. | patja wrote: | I kept looking for a connection to the Squeezebox media player. I | don't think there is one. | jschroedl wrote: | I was just reminded of Logitech Squeezebox. Might have a naming | conflict. | pavel_lishin wrote: | I assumed it was some sort of accordion-like keyboard that was | partially air-powered. | cestith wrote: | I didn't expect it to be actually air powered. I did expect | it to have two vertical surfaces with keys on either side of | a central structure, possibly flexed in and out slightly as a | modifier key. | adrianmonk wrote: | FYI, squeezebox is a nickname for the accordion going back | decades before internet streaming. | | For example, in 1975, The Who released the song "Squeeze Box" | (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n02PD18cFs). | bigmattystyles wrote: | I recommend you re-listen to that song for their meaning of | Squeezebox | | edit: I looked it up and the Who claims there was no double- | entendre; I call BS | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeeze_Box_(song)) | cestith wrote: | There may be (at least officially) no double entendre | intended, but of course you're far from the only one to | have heard it. | reputet wrote: | As an ergonomic keyboard, it reminds me the dear old Kinesis | keyboards. [1] I've met two people who use them. One tells it's a | big leap from the classic keyboards and that the ergonomic | keyboards are far more convenient (when you got used to them). | The other person is not as excited about it. In accordance with | his experience, the Kinesis feels different, but the performance | for him is the same. | | I think when it comes to keyboards and layouts, the QWERTY type | have become a user habit that is really hard to change. Yes, | Dvorak might be easier to type, but as long as it is not common, | software developers don't pay attention to such a low demand and | you have get around all the shortcuts issues that you face. E.g. | Ctrl + x/c/v are no longer in a row as well as the Vim-like | "hjkl". And you have to put extra effort to maintain this | matching. | | Like the Dvorak layout, the Squeezebox Keyboard design is non- | standard and I think a casual user would face challenges trying | to adapt the keyboard to day-to-day tasks. | | Nonetheless, I do like the concept of the Squeezebox Keyboard. | | https://www.amazon.com/Kinesis-Advantage2-Ergonomic-Keyboard... | m463 wrote: | It's a tough one... do you bow to convention or do you forge a | new path. | | I remember for years thinking that conventions on motorcycles | SUCKED. One thing that bothered me was that using the back | brake on a motorcycle required your foot, which seemed to me | like trying to do surgery with a mallet. The gearshift was to a | lesser degree inaccurate with your foot. Thing is, every | motorcycle follows the convention, so you would have to figure | out your own system, then modify every motorcycle you used to | use it. | | I was heartened when I heard of a pro roadracer who use a | thumb-brake for the rear brake. :) | shocks wrote: | I love my Kinesis. Could never switch back. | bsdubernerd wrote: | I've been using the advantage pro (first model) for more than a | decade after using (and trying) a ton of other keyboards, | including popular choices like the microsoft natural line, some | oddballs like the ergomagic (now defunct), split-flat | (goldtouch go!) and so on... | | For my personal preference the advantage is the best. I've | trained both with dvorak and querty, and honestly didn't see | any significant difference in either. For practical purposes | I'm sticking with qwerty. | | What makes the difference is: | | - Columnar layout. Typing on a staggered layout just feels very | wrong after getting used to a simple columnar layout. You don't | need to get fancy with the rest: this is the #1 improvement for | me. | | - Thumb cluster for modifiers. This completely changes the | dynamic of how shortcuts are executed. | | - Good palm rest and key arching. The position overall feels | just right when either hovering over the keyboard OR resting on | it. Sadly, this result in a big keyboard that takes a ton of | space. | | What I don't like about it: | | - Very bad position for ESC and overall position and switches | for the Fn keys. I would have done another row just above | instead of their layout. - Bad choices for some key positions | (I'd move shifts to the thumb cluster and move away home/esc, | INS is unusable, etc). Overall the kinesis' choice is to allow | easier switchover from a regular qwerty keyboard so I do at | least get the reasoning for the layout. - Too tall on the desk. | I wished they would shave 3-4cm in height just by removing the | empty space inside. | | It's actually an easy keyboard to pick-up and start to use. | Looks daunting, but most people I've challenged to try can get | by after a few minutes thanks to the familiar qwerty layout. | | To remain on topic, I really like the squeezebox on principle. | There are some very interesting prototypes shown in the page | (the vertical layout is something I'd love to physically try). | | I do agree with other commenters that some finger movement is | actually good, for the same reason is not healthy to stick your | hand on the palmrest while typing. | | There are not enough keys IMHO. I've contemplated multiple | times to 3d-print myself a kinesis clone and/or an ergodox- | alike, but I'd probably go for 5 rows and 6 columns per cluster | at least in order to have the Fn keys as a _part_ of the | cluster. | | You can physically ignore extra keys in such a layout. One | extra column on the sides or top row makes no difference if you | don't use the key often, so you might just as well have the | extra convenience available. | | Clearly, the same is not true in a design like the squeezebox. | And I don't want to criticize the squeezebox for this. I | greatly believe different people might like different physical | approaches to typing. | reputet wrote: | Thanks for sharing it! | | > INS is unusable | | What about _Ctrl+Insert_ and _Shift+Insert_? Or | _Ctrl+Shift+C_ and _Ctrl+Shift+V_ can handle all the cases? | bsdubernerd wrote: | Yes. The [Ctrl|alt]+Shift actually feels more comfortable | than a regular keyboard, since it's very easy to stretch | the pinky and the thumb, and still have 3 fingers available | (you can reach any other key). The same is true in both | sections of the keyboard. Learning to use both shift and | ctrl keys (depending on which key comes next) is something | that takes some getting used to, but feels very natural. | | The problem I have with INS is due to it's position, | requiring generally the ring finger to overflex to reach | it, making it unbalanced to use compared to other keys. | grae_QED wrote: | It's essentially a folded Corne keyboard [1]. I like how you can | adjust the vertical position of each row, that's definitely new. | Over all this is a very cool direction to take ortho linears. | | [1] https://github.com/foostan/crkbd | pipnonsense wrote: | Has anyone ever tried a "glove" keyboard? | | It seems feasible, and it could be beneficial by giving more | flexibility for your arms, wrist, and hands position (I imagine | myself typing with my arms resting in chair arms or my thighs). | Also, it would be great for VR, I would assume. | corytheboyd wrote: | Human interface device innovation is such a cool field to see | things come out of. Everything from very real accessibility | advances to purely fun concepts are so interesting to me. It's | fun to think about there being some undiscovered setup that just | 10x's your output-- maybe it uses brainwaves, your eyebrow | movements, a clutch, or all/none of the above! ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2021-05-19 23:00 UTC)