[HN Gopher] Why Russians do not smile (2002)
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Why Russians do not smile (2002)
Author : 1experience
Score : 187 points
Date : 2021-05-28 17:02 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.chicagomaroon.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.chicagomaroon.com)
| g42gregory wrote:
| It looks like they smile more now than in the past. Maybe the
| quality of life gotten better and they smile more?
| ordu wrote:
| If Russians smile more (I do not know really), then the most
| likely explanation is a mixing of the USA culture into ours.
|
| I being Russian just do not keep smile on my face when
| everything is just fine. I'll keep smiling when things go
| especially good. I'd laugh evilly^W when they go in
| unexpectedly good way. But small variations from a statistical
| average is not enough of an emotional reason to change my
| facial expression.
|
| Statostical average is the key. If things made a habit of being
| extremely good, I'd stop smiling when they are extremely good.
| I'd wait for more exciting occasion.
| drran wrote:
| It's hard to punch a face via Zoom, so you can smile freely,
| until we meet really.
| solids wrote:
| Leaving aside cultural differences, isn't it a fact that smiles
| (genuine smiles) have health benefits?
| trhway wrote:
| technically speaking smiling increases airflow and thus
| improves work of the brain and the body. So one of first things
| i do in tough/stressful situations is i make myself smile. It
| has immediate effect of de-anxiety and like making yourself an
| impartial side observer of situation, and back in Russia i
| would for example smile when find myself in a bind and before
| starting delivering punches if/when it would come to it, and in
| US i smile if something gets me frustrated as the Russian style
| of response to frustration isn't acceptable here and before i
| start delivering politely shaped microaggressions (the thing
| which seems to replace punches here :)
| cosmodisk wrote:
| Plenty of contribution already,so I'll just add a personal
| anecdote. Some years ago I happened to have some beers with a
| Latvian Russian,who lived here, in London. He tells us that he
| doesn't get the Brits. He just doesn't understand the reasoning
| in some situations. I ask to elaborate. He says: last year, I had
| a pretty serious trauma and ended up in a hospital. It's so bad,
| pain, lots of tests,etc. And I'm pretty fed up with all of it.
| Then, one day, a surgeon comes in, says hello and asks me 'how
| are you?'. And I reply: 'really bad!'. And suddenly surgeon's
| face changes: his eyes start moving faster,he looks at me and
| then observes the room,then at me again. Then the surgeon,in a
| slightly panicky voice ask me again: well what's wrong,is it the
| food? Is it the nurses? Did they do all the tests? What's going
| on?' Then the Russian looks at the doctor and says: well look,
| I'm in a hospital, I'm ill as hell, I'm in pain and you have the
| audacity to ask how am I? Are you crazy? It should be pretty
| clear that it's definitely not my day! The surgeon goes on to
| explain the subtleties of the question and etc. At that point I
| already lived in the UK long enough to understand the doctor's
| position but I also found the Russians point to be absolutely
| hilarious.
|
| From personal experience I find the Russians absolutely hilarious
| even without much smiling (the young ones smile more).They are
| somehow similar to Italians,who are also hilarious, but as is the
| case with the Russians, the funniest things tend to be equally
| tragic too. Kind of a never ending tragicomedy on full blast.
| Clubber wrote:
| In the US smiling wasn't as prevalent, at least in photographs.
| Look at any Civil War era picture and nobody is smiling in their
| portraits. I'm not sure when that started. I read somewhere that
| back then people thought people who smiled all the time were
| "simple minded." Now I can't help thinking that every time I see
| some marketing copy with some model smiling while playing with
| soap or something.
| resoluteteeth wrote:
| Do you also think the world was black and white back then?
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| The reason for the severe facial expressions and the lack of
| smiles in 19th-century photographs was the extremely long
| exposure times that the technology required back then. It was
| hard to hold a smile still enough that the film could capture
| it without blur. You can't assume from those portraits that
| people rarely smiled compared to now.
| rafaelero wrote:
| I had the same impression traveling to Bolivia. I am Brazilian
| and we generally smile when speaking with someone. But in La Paz
| people usually had this serious look on their faces and a kind of
| difficult to approach semblance. I imagined poverty could explain
| that, but Brazil is a bit poorer than Russia. Maybe instead of
| poverty, we could think about hardship in a more general sense? I
| find very hard to believe that considering someone smiling
| insulting is a healthy outcome of a culture.
| yakireev wrote:
| Russian who travelled extensively through South America here.
| I'm not sure what's wrong with altiplano bolivians, but my
| impression was that they are not just grumpy, but genuinely
| unfriendly (and Russian cultural background kinda helps with
| differentiating the two). I used to speak quite decent Spanish
| back then, so I tried communication - and anywhere else on the
| continent my attempts were enough to break the ice and become
| friends, but not in La Paz.
|
| So far La Paz and bolivian altiplano in general is the only
| place in South America where I don't want to come back.
|
| Down in Santa Cruz folks are cool though.
| firebaze wrote:
| Russians can be the sincerest friends you know, smiling to you.
| They also can be your fiercest enemies, still smiling to you.
| Sometimes I think this is the source of the hollywood/McCarthy
| myth of bad russians. TL;DR: If all russians would play poker,
| the world would be broke.
| rafaelero wrote:
| But they don't smile!
| mgerullis wrote:
| It's funny, I never noticed this. I grew up in Germany and had
| lived in the US for a year a while back. A few years after I met
| an American friend here who had been on a euro trip. She went to
| Prague (not exactly Russia, but culturally close enough I guess)
| and she said something like: "why are all people there so damn
| depressed?" I myself had great times in that same city, I never
| got that feeling. But I realized that there is a big cultural
| difference. I told her: "That's how they are. They are still
| happy and loving people, they just show it differently".
|
| I would never perceive them as being depressed. Interesting how
| your surrounding culture can change your perception of things.
| userbinator wrote:
| With masks being socially acceptable in most if not all the world
| now, I wonder if the lack of visible smile that causes will
| change the perception of a smile in places where people usually
| smile by default.
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| I wouldn't assume that masks will remain socially acceptable.
| I'm traveling at the moment in a touristic region of my
| country, and in spite of masks still being legally required in
| shops and (before your food is served) restaurants, almost no
| one is actually wearing them any more. I did wear a mask as I
| walked into a hotel reception tonight, but the proprietor
| outright said I was silly to do so, and she pointed to everyone
| else around. It was very clear that I had committed a _faux
| pas_.
|
| My expectation is that by years end, in Europe and North
| America at least, mask-wearers will be gently mocked everywhere
| outside of some large metropolitan areas (which have their own
| epidemiological concerns), and there won't be any kind of long-
| term impact on facial expressions.
| zqna wrote:
| At first while reading the comment I thought of figurative
| mask, the one that wears of the fake smile. It was making
| sense. Only at the end of the comment I realized it was about
| blue masks.
| nogridbag wrote:
| I've seen this topic a few times. As an American, the only time
| I've had a jarring experience with fake smiles is when I visited
| the Japan section of Disney's Epcot. It was a really bizarre
| experience watching the cashiers be overly cheerful. I've never
| been to Japan so I don't know if it's normal behavior or more of
| a performance for tourists.
| cafard wrote:
| I have just browsed much of _Adventures in the Atomic Age: From
| Watts to Washington_ by Glenn Seaborg, a Nobelist in Chemistry.
| He quoted in passing Tom Landry 's dictum that "You can't think
| and smile at the same time.", but in the context of saying that
| some can: Enrico Fermi was always smiling, and always thinking.
| zero_deg_kevin wrote:
| The thing that struck me most about this article was the frequent
| east/west framing. Is that common outside of the US?
| irinai13 wrote:
| Very common in post-Soviet countries. The US is often referred
| to as the "West" and so is Western Europe. This refers to both
| the freedom and a certain mentality ("mentalitet" in Russian).
| Never heard this framing in the US, though.
| graeme wrote:
| It was more common in the past. In 2002 the cold war had ended
| only 11 years prior. Now we are 30 years out.
|
| Same as how back then you could say "in the war" and people
| knew you meant WWII, but nowaways youth may give you a confused
| look.
|
| But yes at least in Canada we used to use the east/west
| framing, and in respect of russia. In 2002 they were the more
| prominent power compared to China. That situation has heavily
| reversed.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| I know a professor who taught at a community college in
| Brooklyn. He had a section on 9/11 and would warn his
| students if they had a personal connection to the events that
| they may want to skip those classes. Some students who were
| native life long New Yorkers didn't even know what 9/11 was.
| babypuncher wrote:
| The only way I can fathom this being the case in Brooklyn
| is a combination of kids living under a rock and a total
| failure of the local public education system.
| dosman33 wrote:
| Yes. Once while touring a space museum in Switzerland I was
| reading the placards about the Russian and US space programs.
| Yuri Gagarin was consistently referred to as "the communist"
| which seemed perfectly normal to me as an American. Then I saw
| one that referred to John Glenn as "the capitalist" which was a
| novel concept to my brain. It wasn't until that moment that I
| realized just how ridiculous it was for us to refer to random
| Russians as communists, these were both seasoned military men
| who had nothing to do with either ideology other than the fact
| that their governments were pushing these things.
|
| Also, the "winning side" is allowed the freedom to move
| forwards and forget the past quicker. As a Yankee we don't
| think much about the US civil war. The deeper a northerner goes
| into the south the more you are reminded that their side did
| not win the civil war, they remember that shit, and you better
| be careful what you say about it less you get run out of town.
|
| [edit spelling; I had double checked myself but still fucked it
| up]
| mLuby wrote:
| Relatedly, Garagin might've been picked to be the first human
| in space due to his winning smile.
| tut-urut-utut wrote:
| > Yuri Gregorian
|
| Yuri Gagarin
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Radio Yerevan isn't going to correct this one, comrade.
| w0de0 wrote:
| Yuri Gagarin's Gorgeous Gregorian Chants - a new hit album
| from the champion chanter and once spaceman.
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| With regard to people of a third country seeing one astronaut
| as the capitalist and the other as the communist, that goes
| way back. Consider these lines from Jean-Luc Godard's
| _Pierrot le Fou_ (shot in summer 1965). As a man and woman
| look up at the moon, the man says about the Man in the Moon:
|
| "He's fed up. He was glad to see Leonov land. Someone to talk
| to after an eternity alone! But Leonov tried to stuff his
| head full of Lenin. So when the American landed, the guy fled
| to his camp. But the American right away crammed a Coke down
| his throat, after making him say thank you first."
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| They're both ridiculous terms.
|
| The USA was and is a warmongering socialist state. Capitalism
| certainly doesn't prescribe huge spendings and
| nationalisation.
|
| Russia was and is a warmongering socialist state. The
| redeeming factor, and likely what makes "the communist"
| sounds reasonable, is that the Soviets defined themselves
| communist
| randcraw wrote:
| This the perfect opportunity to suggest a relevant book: "The
| Almost Nearly Perfect People: Behind the Myth of the Scandinavian
| Utopia" by Michael Booth. He's a Brit who married a Dane,
| relocated to Denmark, and was struck by the cultural differences
| between Scandinavian cultures and his own. So he wrote a book.
|
| In it, he observes that smiles and jokes and easy conversation
| are more common among Brits and Americans than many Europeans,
| and suggests that, as you proceed northward and eastward through
| the continent, facial expressions tend to grow more sober and the
| tendency toward small talk fades. Not that these peoples are more
| unhappy, but there is generally less inclination to idly chat or
| joke around.
|
| The author offers numerous observations, interpretations, and
| interviews regarding local perspectives on 'happiness' during his
| travels. An insightful read that doesn't take itself too
| seriously.
| ellyagg wrote:
| Given their cultural history, is it possible Russians see the
| American sense of smiling as an individual asserting their
| superiority to others?
| bigdict wrote:
| What is the connection to Russian cultural history?
| konart wrote:
| Nah, if anything rather find it too pushy. "Don't bring all you
| happiness to my kindom of Russian Doom"
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgjguiFxtps
| fallingfrog wrote:
| The other part of this is that smiling when you don't really want
| to, at people you don't really like, as part of your job, is
| really exhausting. In the United States labor and especially
| service sector labor is very disempowered so they don't really
| have the option to refuse to smile. In places where labor has a
| bit more leverage they might be able to. There's also a special
| voice you put on, the customer service voice. Culture is often
| downstream from material conditions.
|
| https://youtu.be/A47SSXdUdvw
| amelius wrote:
| See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_humour
| einpoklum wrote:
| > Very often Western people criticize Russians for being too
| gloomy and unfriendly because we never smile
|
| WTF? I'm very often around Russian and other Slav people and many
| of them smile plenty.
|
| > In Western culture, and especially in the United States, the
| smile is an indication of well-being ... In Russian culture the
| smile is identified with laughter. Russians do not smile unless
| something funny happens and provides a reason for laughter.
|
| Massive over-generalization. Local culture, personality and
| personal life background induce much more variability in tendency
| to smile than whether you're Russian/Slav or not.
|
| Also, the author seems to lump the US and Europe together,
| something I also frown upon.
|
| Bottom line: I am not smiling at this article.
| zeroc8 wrote:
| Austrian here, we are somewhat in between Russians and Americans,
| when it comes to smiling. But what I can tell you is that life is
| just so much better when people smile at you, even if it might
| not be a hundred percent genuine. My comparison stems from having
| worked with both Russians and Americans. Being around grumpy
| Russians all day long makes live really miserable.
| firebaze wrote:
| I can't second this. Everytime I'm in the US I'm scared of all
| the friendly, smiling people, asking "How are you?" in such a
| friendly tone, it's delightful. Of course it's faked, anyone
| knows, and dare if you'd reply with "not good, my aunt just
| died". Awkward situation ensues, everybody tries to get out of
| the situation ("and what would you like to have for breakfast
| tomorrow?").
|
| Now replay the same situation in another ("non-friendly")
| culture. Most of the "not-friendly" cultures would invite you
| to a free beer, asking what happened etc.
| rconti wrote:
| It's not fake to smile at someone you do not know and ask how
| they are. It's merely a greeting.
|
| All cultures have context clues. Your surgeon might have just
| met you, but be legitimately concerned about your condition.
| Your best friend might be interested in your emotional state.
| The stranger on the street might merely be "polite", or
| hoping/wishing you are having a good day, but neither wanting
| to hear a full dissertation on your emotional state, nor a
| recitation of your medical history that a doctor might find
| relevant.
| djmips wrote:
| I don't think so. Try it "not good, my aunt just died" and
| not every American but many would try to comfort you. Not
| saying it wouldn't be a bit awkward but that it's not 'just
| faked' and everyone tries to get out of any real emotion.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| Sorry, I wish we were better at this. I can tell you that
| there's a difference between our quick "hey, how are you"
| said in passing and "how are you" where the person is facing
| you, not moving, and waiting for an answer. In the second
| situation, Americans would consider anyone who doesn't
| respond to sad news with concern to be rude. Not many will
| invite you to drink on the spot, though.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| In America, if your aunt just died, I would say "really bad,
| but thanks for asking". They asked superficially; I answered
| superficially but honestly. I left an open door for them to
| ask more if they want to. If they don't, well, it was
| superficial conversation, and I won't be surprised or
| disappointed, and I hope I didn't put them on the spot too
| much.
| geocrasher wrote:
| "I'm very sorry to hear that. "- Keeps walking.
| irrational wrote:
| This is one of the reasons I hope wearing masks in public
| becomes a permanent thing. I don't want anyone to know
| whether I am smiling or not.
| sebular wrote:
| I'm an American and I love smiling at strangers and receiving
| a genuine smile in return. It's the perfect minimal
| conversation: no words, just sharing a moment of mutual
| positivity and kinship. It's like you said the perfect thing,
| except you didn't have to think of anything clever.
|
| It sounds as though people in some countries interpret it as
| if the smiling person is on the inside of a joke and you're
| on the outside, or even the object of ridicule. As if the
| default is hostile intent. It sounds like a terrible thing to
| assume about your fellow stranger, to be honest.
|
| Maybe the point is that if you start off assuming maximum
| hostility, the reality is more likely to be a pleasant
| surprise?
|
| At any rate, we have common ground when it comes to those
| meaningless questions. They're hollow and they ruin the
| perfection of a nice wordless smile or simple "hi" or "hey".
| The absolute worst is when you pass a stranger and say "hi"
| and they respond to your back as they walk off into the
| distance, "hey, how ya doin?"
| throwaway316943 wrote:
| I don't think people are assuming hostility, the article
| explains that it simply means a different thing e.g.
| laughter instead of positivity. Imagine if you were to go
| about your day winking at everyone you saw, people would
| think you were strange or somewhat crazy, they might think
| you're hitting on them or perhaps had some sinister intent.
| playingchanges wrote:
| I have to tell you as an American and kinda grumpy one at
| that, if you get a smile and hi on the sidewalk as we pass
| each other it's purely out of love for mankind.
| jasondigitized wrote:
| As an American, I can tell you for some of us, its not faked.
| We just like people, genuinely, and really enjoy interacting
| with them.
| nomel wrote:
| My favorite part about the pandemic is that I can smile
| constantly under my mask, even while picking out soup at
| the grocery store, without looking like an idiot.
| gsk22 wrote:
| You're misunderstanding what the phrase "how are you" means
| in the US. It is not a literal question, but a set phrase
| with implicit social rules for "correct" responses.
|
| This doesn't mean the person asking is faking kindness - but
| also understand they're not actually asking for a rundown of
| how your life is going. Negative responses to the question
| are ok, just not deeply personal answers.
|
| Tom Scott has an excellent video that addresses this very
| issue.
|
| https://youtu.be/eGnH0KAXhCw
| lostcolony wrote:
| I always enjoyed the "how is it going", and then not even
| waiting for a response before moving forward with the
| conversation. I'm a native born American, have traveled
| outside of the country only a handful of times, and yet I
| still find it jarring to be asked that.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| It's the same in Russian actually. You're saying "how are
| you" ("kak dela") after "hello" ("privet"), but you're not
| really expecting any meaningful answer other than "I'm OK"
| ("normal'no") or "I'm fine" ("otlichno").
|
| But it might be one way to start a conversation when you
| want to tell something you don't like. Like "How are you?
| I'll live. What happened? ...". But it's more of closed
| friends conversation when you can feel OK sharing your
| burdens with other person. I guess, similar thing could
| happen in US?
| OJFord wrote:
| _Thank you so much! You 're so welcome!_
|
| There's only one word 'y'all' need: 'cheers'.
| ferdowsi wrote:
| Cannot agree enough. I joined a startup that very clearly
| initially hired for Russian cultural fit (friends hiring
| friends) and the mood was like attending a funeral on a daily
| basis. During interviewing, the hiring manager very cleverly
| had the minority of native-born Americans speak to me so I
| never got a feel for the actual culture.
|
| I couldn't imagine working long for a place where every day
| seemed like solitary misery, especially remote during a
| pandemic, where rapport and ease of communication matters a
| lot. Didn't help that the quality of engineering work was
| absolutely abysmal (see friends hiring friends). Was contacting
| recruiters within a week.
| LudwigNagasena wrote:
| Weird, the only big "Russian cultural fit" issue I can think
| of is gendered norms and complete disregard for "political
| correctness". People often make jokes at the workplace and
| make small talk, but yes, we don't usually have big smiles
| during normal conversations or greetings.
| borroka wrote:
| Smiling and being entertaining are not correlated (personal
| experience after a few decades of being alive). There are few
| everyday situations worse than being welcomed by a smile
| which looks fake one mile out. A genuine smile is not an
| every-second gesture.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| I've heard different explanations.
|
| Someone told me if someone is smiling to you in Russia, they are
| probably scamming you.
|
| A smile given away too freely for no reason can be perceived as
| fake and suspicious.
| ajg4 wrote:
| Absolutely true, I have experienced this myself
| jldugger wrote:
| > Someone told me if someone is smiling to you in Russia, they
| are probably scamming you.
|
| Russia also has dash cams aplenty because apparently
| pedestrians will willingly jump in front of cars for insurance
| money. Maybe they're smiling while they do it, but it seems
| like you can be scammed either way.
| squarefoot wrote:
| My personal take on smiles is that they're welcome if genuine,
| but can have adverse effects when forced. Many people think that
| displaying a fake smile for example at the workplace would help
| with interactions, especially professional ones, but rest assured
| that when I see someone faking a smile, particularly those
| working hard to look warm and sincere, I immediately feel I could
| be manipulated and get on the defensive. ...But I speak from
| personal experience of being shown daily the widest warm smile at
| the workplace from the same person that a few months later would
| dig my professional grave, so your mileage will probably vary.
| neurostimulant wrote:
| I live in a culture where being nice and smiling to people is
| the norm. It's really nice interacting with strangers because
| they'll always nice and smiles at you (even road rage is
| particularly rare), but this also makes backstabbing office
| politics particularly painful, especially when you're still
| expected to display nice and smiling behaviour even after such
| backstabbing.
|
| I guess you can't have the best of both world for this stuff.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| IME, there's basically no correlation between your facial
| expression and whether you respect and work well with others.
| Someone who just smiles at you all the time is going to
| either seem nutty, or at best look like he's being really
| nervous and trying to find humor in the interaction somehow.
| It's a sign of weakness and might make others take you less
| seriously. On the flip side a firm expression and stiff upper
| lip can also connote respect for others.
| cybice wrote:
| Changed a little bit since that time. Mostly in cities, now we
| are smiling when meet with people we know well. This allows me to
| trick the system sometimes, every time I need something from
| government structure Im smiling there like an idiot, that cause
| unknown people to think that they know me and then help.
| null_object wrote:
| I genuinely love the narrative style of this article: every
| situation is described matter-of-factly, without artifice -
| unsmiling, in fact.
|
| It's a perfect vehicle for its message.
| lopatin wrote:
| On a scale of 1 to 10, how much did you want to make that pun?
| null_object wrote:
| Ah ok. I guess my comment came across as smart-ass and
| contrived. But I actually thought of the prose like this.
| lopatin wrote:
| As was mine :) But you're right, it's well written.
| lamontcg wrote:
| I guess I should have been born in Russia.
|
| Might explain why I got along so well with my old German
| neighbors.
| [deleted]
| lostlogin wrote:
| The different usage and meaning of eye contact is a minefield a
| bit like this.
| [deleted]
| abruzzi wrote:
| I'm an American, but I don't smile by showing my teeth, though I
| will sometimes do a closed lip smile. For me I don't think it is
| cultural, but rather that smiling always feels to me like baring
| my teeth, i.e. aggressive and threatening. I don't honestly know
| why I feel that way, I don't have any history or experiences that
| would seem to cause that, but it just feels wrong to do. I've
| always wondered if there are other people have the same reaction?
|
| Note: I don't see other people's smiles as threatening, it just
| feels that way when I do it.
| olivermarks wrote:
| This is such a great article imo that really captures fundamental
| societal and cultural differences. I would say that Sweden has a
| similar 'grave' approach to life and that smiling is reserved for
| funny situations.
|
| Much as I love the US 'etiquette smile' when passing people in
| the street and meeting, social pressure to conform can mask
| stress, anxiety and solemnity. The English used to feel pretty
| uncomfortable about yanks grinning away at everything but they
| seem to have partially become Americanized in this regard. (I'm
| English originally but have lived in the US for decades).
| abawany wrote:
| I've never gotten used to the 'etiquette smile' (I have
| different internal terms for it) and try to watch out for it as
| much as possible; I also appear to be physically incapable of
| expressing an emotion that I do not actually feel so there is
| no danger of me ever doing this to others. There is a certain
| shallowness that often accompanies it that often puts me on
| guard: the larger the smile, the tighter I grab my wallet and
| the quicker I wish to terminate the interaction.
| phpnode wrote:
| Common telesales advice is to smile before you pick up the phone,
| because people can hear your smile and are generally more
| receptive to whatever you're going to say if you sound friendly.
| I wonder if this trick works in Russia?
| The_rationalist wrote:
| Unrelated but I recently discovered an admiration toward Russian
| pharmacology, they have discovered some of the most interesting
| drugs out there, especially on the topic of anxiolytics and
| extending lifespan.
| ilamont wrote:
| _In this mini-ethnography I present the main differences in
| perception of the smile in Russia and in the United States._
|
| There are regional variations in the United States. In New
| England, NY and other parts of the Northeast, we are often quite
| serious/stone-faced in public, something that I have heard
| outsiders from the west coast and South observe. I also was
| struck by the demeanor of some friends from Brazil who always
| have a smile on their face, and seem to be more happy and upbeat
| even when things are not going well.
|
| There was related discussion on HN about smiling and laughter
| that's worth reading:
|
| From apes to birds, animal species that "laugh" (arstechnica.com)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27193602
| dandanua wrote:
| > For Russians happiness and prosperity are not associated with
| the smile
|
| This is a very questionable claim. I think such association is
| true for humans in general and even for some mammals.
|
| Their culture just discourages happiness. Look at the Russian
| literature - that's an ocean of suffering.
| Veuxdo wrote:
| Headline: Why Russians do not smile
|
| Article: Russians do smile
| b0rsuk wrote:
| Mona Lisa was special in part because it was uncommon for people
| to smile. In Middle Ages, someone smiling a lot would be
| perceived as stupid. That's why facial expressions in medieval
| imagery are so serious. Today, being surprised a lot is often
| taken as a sign of stupidity, whereas in ancient Greece an owl
| was the bird of Athena, the goddess of wisdom. Because,
| obviously, an owl is always surprised, and surprise is the first
| step to understanding.
| Florin_Andrei wrote:
| Athena Glaukopis
|
| Well, it's complicated. Glaukopis could also be translated as
| "blue eyed", or "grey eyed", not just "owl eyed".
|
| Being the goddess of wisdom and handicraft (among other
| things), perception was a crucial attribute. Having big eyes
| (like the owl) could be interpreted as having good visual
| perception.
|
| But it's not just about the size. She's also described as
| having "bright eyes", or "flashing eyes", or "darting eyes".
| It's more about the acuity of perception, than about some
| emotional aspect.
| nostromo wrote:
| Smiling prominently for portraits seemed to become more popular
| only after modern dentistry became common.
|
| I imagine most people in the Middle Ages (and much later) had
| chipped, missing, buckled, crooked and stained teeth.
|
| Now pristine teeth are a signal of wealth (even though they're
| usually 100% fake veneers, at least among actors and models) so
| people want to signal their wealth by smiling prominently.
| rjsw wrote:
| Teeth in skeletons from the Middle Ages seem fine. It is
| later ones, after bringing sugar back from the Americas, that
| have lots of cavities and missing teeth.
| ajross wrote:
| Both beets and sugar cane are old world plants, and maize-
| based corn syrup wasn't used as a sweetener until the 20th
| century. It's true that refined sugar is terrible for
| dental health, but it didn't come from the americas.
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| It wasn't known that beets could be exploited for sugar
| until the 16th century. Sugar cane was not known in
| Europe (outside Muslim-ruled areas of Spain) until post-
| Colombian times. In antiquity, the sole common means of
| sweetening food in Europe was honey, and later _dulce de
| leche_.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Or extracts from sweet fruit like this:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powidl
| a9h74j wrote:
| Check out the thesis of the recent bestseller _Breath_ by
| James Nestor. Native American and other traditional
| cultures put serious emphasis on nose breathing, strictly
| avoiding mouth breathing. Apparently, consistent nose-
| breathing can affect nasal and upper-palate development,
| favoring a spacious mouth and straighter teeth. It can also
| help avoid dry mouth at night, apparently favoring
| resistance to dental caries. There is a book by a 19th
| century ethnographer who discovered some of this, titled
| _Shut Your Mouth and Save Your Life._ [1]
|
| [1] https://www.consciousbreathing.com/articles/shut-your-
| mouth-...
| yborg wrote:
| Getting kind of off-topic here, but my recollection is that
| teeth in the pre-industrial age were often destroyed over
| time by grit from flour milling that would wear down teeth.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| There was a Han Dynasty (200 BC - 200 AD) ritual
| involving feeding mush to 70-year-olds. (Why mush?
| Because at that age you've probably lost your teeth.)
|
| However, I have the impression that this is basically as
| true today as it was then.
| B1FF_PSUVM wrote:
| Used to be that you checked cattle's teeth for problems
| before buying - that's why it's impolite to "look a gift
| horse in the mouth".
|
| Also done with slaves, from what I've read. Nowadays it's
| voluntary, sort of.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| You don't have to open your mouth or show your teeth when you
| smile.
| brixon wrote:
| It was also an issue of the speed of capture. Paintings and
| old Cameras had long exposure times so you needed a pose that
| you could hold for a long time.
|
| https://time.com/4568032/smile-serious-old-photos/
| pmoriarty wrote:
| This reminds me of some articles showing smiling Victorians,
| like this one: [1]
|
| Seeing them helps counter the general impression we get from
| seeing so many dour-faced Victorians from photographs of that
| era.
|
| [1] - https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/11/24/smiling-
| victorians...
| ptr2voidStar wrote:
| Fascinating insight. It is little gems such as these, that make
| HN a cut above the rest.
| hallarempt wrote:
| Pity it's not true.
| solarkraft wrote:
| Please elaborate
| fsflover wrote:
| Actually it's the OP who should probably provide some
| proof for the claim.
| [deleted]
| coldtea wrote:
| > _In Middle Ages, someone smiling a lot would be perceived as
| stupid._
|
| Unfortunately 20th-century photo magazines, TV, and later
| Instagram and selfies changed that...
| [deleted]
| ozim wrote:
| I really liked book by Erin Meyer "The Culture Map" it gives a
| lot more insight into those kind of things. She is American that
| moved to France and was working with multicultural teams.
|
| "Americans precede anything negative with three nice comments;
| French, Dutch, Israelis, and Germans get straight to the point;
| Latin Americans and Asians are steeped in hierarchy;
| Scandinavians think the best boss is just one of the crowd."
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| But really, why do Americans smile?
| inanutshellus wrote:
| One of the other commenters said: [snip]The
| English used to feel pretty uncomfortable about yanks grinning
| away at everything[/snip]
|
| That surprised me, since our cultural norms largely stemmed
| from there.
|
| So what would account for the difference? It must've come about
| after we split as a country.
|
| I wonder if it's our Declaration of Independence including "the
| pursuit of Happiness". See: We hold these
| truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that
| they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
| Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of
| Happiness.
|
| Nowhere else in the world (up until then, anyway) gave as its
| founding commandment that being happy was an indicator of a
| life well-lived.
|
| Thus, perhaps, while other places reserve the effort of smiling
| for the emotion of irrepressible joy, Americans -- to prove
| they're living a good life -- present a smile.
| w0de0 wrote:
| > That surprised me, since our cultural norms largely stemmed
| from [England].
|
| I don't think that assumption really holds up, it's very pop-
| history. From the Scots of the Appalachians, the religious
| fanatics of New England, the garguntuan influence of African-
| American syncretic culture, the Nordic yeoman of the mid-
| north-east, the southern European urban influx of the 1900s
| and the new, exciting Latin American syncretism: America
| really is a cultural melting pot. Only, really, the Virginia
| gentry (Jefferson, Washington, et al) can be plainly said to
| have imported English norms - and still, they were
| ideological radicals interested in forming a new nation.
|
| The French like to call us (English, Scots, and all the
| varieties of American) "Anglo-Saxons," but they're hardly
| right. Don't give them ammo, they're already merciless!
| jiofih wrote:
| May be inherited from the cultures that intermingled in the
| Americas? Africans tend to smile a lot.
| dougmwne wrote:
| Basically the article still applies. People who always have a
| smile on their face are praised as having reached a level of
| contentment and joy that the rest of us aspire to. That and
| you'll eventually get fired from your job if you never smile.
| [deleted]
| swensel wrote:
| Speaking of jobs, at least in America, smiling is helpful
| even getting the job in the first place.
| interviewer0000 wrote:
| Well, weed being legal on the west coast helps. :)
| the_local_host wrote:
| Because our happiness often cannot be contained.
| w0de0 wrote:
| Because other Americans smile back, and it imbues a
| philadelphic feeling. That's valuable when your society is not
| an ethnostate, but a mix of immigrants.
| dundercoder wrote:
| There's also a fake it till you make it aspect. If you're
| having a crummy day, forcing yourself to smile anyway can help
| you out of it. Wagging the dog's tail to make it happy so to
| speak.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| To appear friendly and welcoming, and to show that you're
| having a good time.
|
| People often assume something's wrong if you never smile, or,
| worse, frown.
| jagrsw wrote:
| I'll try to give you European POV :).
|
| People sometimes have good time (better than avg), sometimes
| bad time, and sometime neutral time (say.. thinking about
| some problem to solve, or repeating Swedish vocabulary to
| learn a new language, or trying to recall the name of a
| person you just met and you're supposed to remember).
|
| If you're compelled to smile with every interaction, in order
| to show that you have good time, then it'd mean that you'd be
| mostly lying according to the aforementioned definition :).
|
| Unless we re-define the 'good time', so it means 'not
| significantly bad', which seems to be the case here. It's
| just, that it requires a bit of effort to remember and to
| switch to when visiting US.
| dougmwne wrote:
| I wonder if any Russians can weigh in if this still feels
| accurate. I'm familiar with Polish Culture, which is less fun,
| frivolous, and happy than American culture, but a smile is
| certainly not an attack, just reserved for genuine occasions.
| Service people are in no way expected to smile unless there is
| some honest reason to.
| j4yav wrote:
| I can imagine a drunk person reacting as described, but mainly
| because drunk people are unpredictable.
|
| I think otherwise though it you smile a lot for no reason
| people will think you are a little foolish or loony, but it
| isn't dangerous.
|
| I agree with the author that Americans and Russians have a
| surprising amount of similarities when you get past some
| surface level differences.
| MarkLowenstein wrote:
| Not Russian but my wife is - grew up there until college age.
| She was saying this exact thing a couple weeks ago (which is
| why I took interest in this article): that smiling at a
| stranger will cause them to dismiss you as stupid. So I'd say
| Yes.
| firebaze wrote:
| This story is interesting, but maybe the message is different
| to what we'd like to perceive?
| Krasnol wrote:
| I am Polish and I can not confirm that. I felt a sharp decline
| in "smiles" after my move to Germany where your description
| fits much more. I see much more people smiling for no obvious
| reasons when I visit Poland from time to time. Something which
| is not perceived as something else but friendliness by my
| German SO though while I've witnessed Germans being perceived
| as very cold by US Americans for the way they are.
|
| I've been also smilingly welcomed by Russian friends even
| though they may smile less on the average. I haven't been to
| Russia yes so I can't tell. Maybe they are just well
| assimilated here.
|
| Maybe it only is all those fake smiles you get from the US
| service culture which is so over the top that everything else
| becomes nuanced.
| dougmwne wrote:
| That makes sense. My main context for comparison is US vs PL,
| and there's a largish difference between strangers and in
| public or service people and a much smaller difference with
| friends and family. If you start talking to a stranger in the
| grocery store in the US because you were both reaching for
| the same milk you might get a very big smile. I would never
| expect such an exaggerated reaction in PL, just a small nod
| or pardon me.
|
| Also, service people are not supposed to be fake smiling, we
| are actually expecting their emotional labor on top of the
| labor of their job. They are supposed to be cheering us up
| with their genuinely good attitude and "changing someone's
| day for the better" with their smile. It's all pretty
| exhausting.
| Krasnol wrote:
| I've spend a decade working for an F500 US company here in
| Germany. The amount of bad news delivered with a fake smile
| was staggering. I lead to pure disgust within the German
| employee bubble making it actually stronger and the news
| worse. In the end I've been fired with one of those and
| some phrase along the "let's stay friends and meet again"
| line ;)
|
| I was always quite surprised that there seems to never have
| been any online course teaching people who came over those
| basic things as they we online courses for everything else.
| ArkanExplorer wrote:
| Its down to latitude.
|
| The latitude of Warsaw is 52.2deg N, which is about the same
| latitude as northern Canada (Edmonton).
|
| Moscow is 55.7, which is the same as southern Alaska.
|
| Days are shorter, darker, and colder. It has an impact on your
| mood.
|
| Plus, the average income for a Pole is $18,000/year, whereas
| for the average White American worker its $40,000/year. Cost of
| living is often lower in America than in Poland (excepting
| Seattle, NY etc.). So materially the average American is a lot
| better off.
| Arech wrote:
| It's as accurate as can be accurate any statement about a
| culture that spans thousands kilometres from East to West and
| from South to North and contain multitude of subcultures within
| itself. I.e. it depends, but "yes" is generally closer to the
| truth than "no"
| drran wrote:
| The situation is pretty serious, guys. Enemies are at the West.
| Enemies are at the East. Enemies are at the South. Enemies are
| at the North. Enemies are INSIDE our grandiose Russian
| civilization! Why are you smiling? Are you stupid? Maybe you
| dislike our grandiose Russian civilization, with grandiose
| Russian writers, like Pushkin, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Hohol?
| Maybe you dislike our grandiose and mighty Russian language?
| Why are you talking in your stupid English language? Are you
| liking rotting West culture, which pushes their rotten songs in
| unprotected ears of our youth? ...
|
| And so on 24x7 at Russian TV.
| konart wrote:
| >In Russian culture the smile is identified with laughter.
| Russians do not smile unless something funny happens and
| provides a reason for laughter. This fundamental difference in
| perception produces many unfortunate misunderstandings.
|
| I think I've read this a few times before and I can hardly
| agree.
|
| While smile to laughter to fun association is strong and rather
| obvious I think the main reason you see russian smile less
| often is that genuine smile is the clear sign of good mood and
| relative well being and we tend to keep those things for our
| close friends, family and simply a good company we feel click
| with.
|
| And we are too straightforward for a forced\fake smile. If a
| russian thinks 'go f*ck yourself' about you - it will be on
| their face. But most likely you will hear it out loud.
|
| UPD:
|
| I also believe we are less emotional in general. At least when
| it comes to things like movies, shows etc. I was amazed when I
| witnessed americans reacting to Game of Thrones...
| jagrsw wrote:
| This is a risky hypothesis, but could it have something to do
| with access to guns?
|
| In a society when every stranger can potentially be armed, it
| might be prudent to somehow display the 'I intend no harm' sign
| upfront, and smile might be a good proxy for that? The 'the
| armed society is a polite society' thing?
|
| Living in Europe, where owning guns is not common (and carrying
| personally very very rare), I don't feel compelled to display
| or require upfront any bigger signs of 'friendliness' to/from
| strangers, other than 'Hello/Guten Abend/Adieu'. If the
| situation becomes unpleasant, I can always leave w/o physical
| consequences (excl. assault situations).
|
| In a gun-loving culture, I'd probably put more effort to lower
| risk of misunderstandings.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| Canadians have a similar smile-culture as Americans, but not
| a gun culture. I mean, a lot of people have guns for hunting
| or target practice, but you're not allowed to walk around
| with a pistol like you can in the US.
| pjlegato wrote:
| Gun ownership is quite common in many parts of Europe.
| Finland in particular is nearly the same as the US in terms
| of percentage of households with firearms.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent_of_households_with_gun.
| ..
| OJFord wrote:
| But [0] they are licenced for specific usages, and carry is
| not allowed outside of that context, and 'personal
| protection' hasn't been one (barring extant holders) since
| 1998.
|
| [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_
| Finland
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I don't think that's the case at all, based on variations in
| the US. The upper-class parts of LA are known for superficial
| friendliness, while New York is not, but in neither region is
| known for its gun culture.
|
| Meanwhile parts of the Midwest that had a lot of Germanic
| immigrants are perceived as being "cold" compared to the
| southern states, and both tend to have high rates of gun
| ownership.
|
| When I first moved to Southern California, I found the smiles
| quite off-putting. Living here for over a decade, I'm sure I
| do the same now.
| mLuby wrote:
| Because they have too much piano and not enough slide whistle.
| https://youtu.be/EyofqsBQS5I
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